Scotti Model X Italian Prototype - Shooting, History, & Disassembly
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ม.ค. 2016
- / forgottenweapons
The Scotti Model X (the X standing for the 10th year of the Italian Fascist era, or 1932) was one of several semiauto rifles tested by the Italian military during the late 1920s and early 1930s. The Scotti entry into these competitions was chambered for the 6.5mm Carcano cartridge and used standard 6-round clips, identical to the Carcano bolt action rifles. It also used sights basically identical to Carcano rifle sights. Where it was rather unusual was its open-bolt action, a system typically found in machine guns.
Open bolt means that when the rifle is ready to fire, the bolt is locked all the way back. Upon pulling the trigger, the bolt moves forward, picking up a cartridge, chambering it, firing it by means of a fixed firing pin, and then extracting and ejecting the spent case and locking open again, ready for another shot. This system can be used with either locked or blowback actions, and the Scotti X uses a two-lug rotating bolt to lock during firing.
In total, just about 250 Scotti Model X rifles were manufactured, and the never progressed past initial field trials. A few later models were made in very small numbers as late as 1936, but these also failed to gain any acceptance.
It's an old video, but I'd like to thank the owner of that really rare rifle for letting Ian play with it (and show it to us)!
It's Ian's. He found it at a pawnshop in I believe Tombstone
@@phoff5850 while the rifle actually being Ian's doesn't surprise me, I'd love to hear how it got to him, from manufacturer to the place he picked it up.
@@ScottKenny1978 he talked about it in his Q&A #19: Answers from the Boonies.
It was a war bring back, when the vet died his widow brought the gun into a pawn shop and Ian found it there.
@@phoff5850 cool, thanks!
@@phoff5850 the wife always sells the gun.
I can see a closed-bolt version of this working really well, its a shame they weren't developed further.
Plus it is very nice looking and not very bulky for being an early semi-auto.
The Italians always cared more about being better looking than their opponents, so it makes sense. Have you seen the Italian tanks? They’re useless, but look awesome.
I kinda see a bit of a trend there. The Carcano was also fairly lightweight, even the full length rifles compared to other contemporary rifles with similar barrel length.
what is the closed bolt version of this rifle?
@@raditya5663 there is none. There is the Armaguerra, a closed bolt rifle of a different design that beat this rifle in the competitions.
Probably taking the bolt mechanism from the beretta model 1931 and 37 could’ve worked. The little tail that allows the hammer to hit the firing pin could’ve also been used for gas piston.
I am Italian and I totally love this Rifle. I didn't know that we used semiautomatic rifles too. There's the Armaguerra 39 too !
This video helped distract me from the pain of fracturing my ankle while my meds kicked in. Thanks for everything you do, Ian.
gold for my italian eyes ❤
Apologizing for a quiet dog, must have some Canadian blood. Informative video as always.
+Neotericity I didn't even notice till he pointed it out
Im sorry I am Canadian. ROFL
That is a loud ass rifle.
+Im Tabe My thoughts exactly
+Im Tabe you should hear the m38 carbine, idk why but this cartridge is ridiculously loud
Loud ass-rifle
@@garryghibli5993 and it shoots like sh!t...
Whatever you hear in videos represent more of the mic qualities and edit settings, sound compression and such. You cant judge how loud it actually is.
I love to learn about prototype weapons issued to trials. They are a great source to learn about how modern engineering solutions came about and how weapon design works. Keep 'em coming!
Very well made, measured, carefully explained and complete video for this subject matter. Congratulations and keep up the good work on "Forgotten Weapons"
Very helpful slow motion sequence. Makes the operation very clear.
Excellent video as always.
The open bolt design on this gun would be fairly simple to adapt/evolve into a closed bolt design without much problem. It;s a shame it didn't get beyond to early design stage, could have been a good rifle.
Thanks! I do enjoy seeing these early prototypes.
I really enjoyed this video, I have only a basic understanding of guns but I love the creative engineering in them and I learn a lot from your videos, thanks for taking the time to upload them. From what I gather would light primer strikes have been more of an issue pre WW2 rather than after? Also the use of slow motion camera I find really useful in understanding how the mechanism works so thank you for incorporating it
Great details shown in the video, loved your work.
I have a question.. have you ever dismantled something and forgotten how to rebuild it? or broken one of the components?
+AwesomeVindicator no he hasn`t. he answered that in a previous FAQ
+Jonas Kilian
The correct answer is: not yet....
Jonas Kilian I havent seen that FAQ, but i will do soon . thanks :)
I think it was the CMG3 video there was an incorrect Assembly. Ian caught it later and put a notation in the video. you could call the Ross rifle video an exercise in incorrect Assembly and what happens when you shoot a Ross assembled wrong.
The slo-mos are a very good illustration of how the open bolt system works, nice.
excellent video! I enjoyed the slow motion photography of he gun in action.
It dose seem like a rather odd firearm because of how it operates but it was a clever idea how they made the bolt close up without firing
very informative and a clear presentation! thank you for your work!
I love the sound it makes :D
Love the slow motion closeups!
Very interesting and great slow motion footage.
According to Italian sources, several Scotti X were used and field tested during the Etiopian War of '35.
I really like the design of the action. It seems to be simple and cheap to manufacture. The open bolt mechanism is certainly not ideal for a rifle but with a selective fire trigger group and a quick change, 20 round macazine, it would have been a good basis for a SAW.
Here the experimental Scotti LMG using the same action (here the aerial version, there were versions with buttstock too). i.pinimg.com/originals/71/6f/8e/716f8e33be4f124274a6de9457462b65.png
Interesting to watch the super slow motion video, and seeing the entire rifle deflection
15:40 Very cool to see how the entire rifle flexes when fired!
+Brian Taylor Pretty much all rifles do...
+Forgotten Weapons The SVT in particular has very violent barrel whip. Enough that it can dislodge the locking cleaning rod.I know you're not a fan of the SVT, nor is it rare. But it would be nice to see you make a video on the history and function. Some of the SVT features are a bit ahead of its time such as BHO, mag release and adjustable gas.
+Forgotten Weapons It's hard to tell whether he is legitimately interested in the flexing of the rifle, which is fine if he is, or if he is saying it's a piece of crap because it does. If he is calling it a piece of crap, that usually annoys me, people bring that up when comparing two guns trying to down talk the other, when in reality, both do. So that gets old fast. Sorry if you actually are interested. :P
And Jinzo, yes, that is the cartridge going off. The tremendous amount of force in such little time is enough to make nearly everything flex in one way or another.
Such a cool and elegant design to be let down by extraction problems and lubricated ammo.
Scotti's design starts with a repurposing of the Mannlicher M95 bolt design, and adding a Gas piston.
Several iterations of the M95 to semi auto were developed in WWI.. two by the Russians , and probably one or more by the Italians. The Russian ones are documented ( 1915). Both used an added, side mounted gas piston and op-rod connected to the bolt handle shank, with recoil spring around the op rod (suffered from heat de-tempering,) and another with a separate recoil spring behind the bolt handle. None were made in any quantity;
and development switched to the Federov Avtomat 1916, in 6,5 Japanese ( not available until Civil War ( 1918-1922/3).
DocAV
awesome videos! i sit here waiting for you to upload...... imjking, but i am pretty early today ;)
Beautiful gun,
videos on the prototypes are very interesting and also description below the video
the man does love prototype Semi auto rifles
Love the sound. Sounds like a battle from a War film.
Really appreciated the slow mo; man, that puppy really vibrated like crazy. How accurately could you shoot?
interesting firearm, thanks for sharing it :)
loved the video. I was wondering, if you have access to a standard Carcano? then you could do a side by side comparision of how much the open bolt actually affects accuracy
cool! I´ve always liked Italian rifles. Its also worth noting that some weapons still use lubricated ammunition to this day - 5.7x28mm ammunition is coated with a proprietary dry film lubricant, that is essential to the proper function of the P90 sub machine gun.
Really cool rifle
kinda kewl old gun thanks for the vid keep it up !!!!!
Cool video
Hey Ian, do you think it's possible you'll ever do the MP. 3008? Having done a bunch of other "last ditch" guns, and whole specials on the VG1-5, it seems like a nice fit for the channel. Keep up the great work!
Hello Ian, i hope you dont mind that i have some questions. First i want to say how much i like your channel and how interesting all of the informations are that you can tell us about these guns. I have three questions. What in your opinion was the most effective machine gun cartidge of the second world war? Why nobody ever botherd to build a 40.cal machine gun? And could you take a army nowday serious if the would equip there soldiers with Stg 44? I hope can answer these and i thank you for another good year of Forgotten Weapons. I wish you and the channel a happy new year.
I really like this rifle. It's very sleek and has a very good operating system. All it would need is a detachable magazine and a closed-bolt firing system and it would have been an excellent rifle.
good looking rifle!
thanks for the video really i like it is good rifle
beautiful rifle
I love this gun
you should do a vid on a vetterli vitali btw those are cool and though available pretty cheap are interesting and not many I would think know of them
really cool rifle
Very interesting indeed.
At the very least it sounds ferocious!
8:20 When the Folding Sight is folded fully back as you see here; you have a 450 meter Zero.
And @ 15:35, you can see the Barrel & Stock flexing in slow-motion.
each time i see that, i'm amazed.
14:02 That shot sounds pretty beefy. Is that from the cartidge or the audio recording setup?
I can think of another 2 advantages - first having the bolt open like this means it can be cooled better. Somewhat similar to FG-42 where in fully auto the bolt stays open while in semi auto is locked. The second this is faster reloading - I mean you just put the magazine in and you fire. You dont need to charge the bolt. Correct me if I am wrong.
Ok, another great review of an interesting Italian firearm. But I have to know, where do I get one of those hats he'd wearing!
Would have a fluted chamber (a la H&K) helped out with the extraction?
usually the powder used as well as barrel length, you can get the same effect from type 38 arisaka carbine you can make her whisper or bark depending on your load!
I wish Ian made a Halloween special, which he would end with an 'If you'd like to see more... unspeakable horrors from beyond, make sure to subscribe to the channel...'
If some open bolt guns (or just any gun) required lubricated cartridges to function reliably, could you just lubricate the chamber instead of the cartridges?
love it
Cool machine and very informative video.....Now, I'm going to watch the Balloon Popping Show.
I love your channel thanks. do you think this rifle would fire from a semi closed position like a fg42 it could have been a great rifle for the time.
Hey Ian. BIG fan here. I may one day get to see ALL your videos. I have learned so much about so many weapons from watching you. But I have to ask you one thing.........
Being left handed, does it ever bother you, guns like this one, when that bolt handle comes flying right at your nose??? I know that may sound like a joke, but DAMN, that one looked like it was kinda close!
Very cool gun! I think it could have done well if it was mass produced. If they could have used it it could have been very good like the m1 or stv-40. Also it sounds amazing when you shoot it
Not many ranges have saguaros on the hillsides. My desert shooting to the west of you in southern Kalifornia desert has cholla and creosote bush.
that rifle sounds terrifying
It seems like there would be a benefit to having an open-bolt gun combined with the auto-ejection of the clip; while it may not have typical service rifle accuracy, I feel like it may have done "well" in more of a supporting role, having the ability to fire and reload quickly. This doesn't get rid of the issues it has, but there may have been practical applications that this rifle would have fallen nicely into.
I love our weapons.
Proud to be Italian!
Conceptually, I like that bolt design - simple but effective.
Wouldn't it be easy to catch the bolt locked but just not yet igniting like in an FG 42 semi to make it more resistent to the environment and cut down on lock time?
I would use Lanolin Wax or i think Hornady Spray Case lube is just that for lubing Ammo - i use it reloading my plinking ammo on a Lee turret press without removing it, shoots just fine without catching dirt or being sticky (cheap Prvi 62gr bullets, 1 MOA at 100m out of an DPMS 3g1)
Alfredo Scotti was indeed the designer of this rifle. The manufacturer was a company named Società Anonima Armi Automatiche Scotti, in cooperation with the Terni Arsenal.
Liking the Soviet Panama hat. Classy!
Hi,
nice video even though I know alomst nothing about guns, I could understand the function of the rifle very well, but I still have some questions.
Why do you need to lockthe bolt before fireing? What are the benefits?
cheers
+besternamedensgibtxd If the rifle fires while unlocked, the pressure will blow the bolt back at the shooter dangerously vast, potentially hurting them and damaging the gun.
+besternamedensgibtxd When the round is fired, in the barrel, between the bullet and the bottom of the case, that lay on the bolt, it develops a very high pressure, that locks the walls of the case against the chamber, so preventing the hot gasses to be driven back to the face of the shooter.
If the bolt begin to travel backwards too early, when the pressure in the barrel is still high, then the thin metal of the case is stretched between the chamber (since the walls of the case are still locked to it by the pressure) and the bolt that is travelling backwards. That way the case can break, and the hot gasses and brass splinters can hit the shooter's face, with unpleasant consequencies.
Interesting design, but my first thought was of long range accuracy due to the moving bolt. Could have made for a decent vehicle crew weapon if shorted down though.
Is it just me or is this rifle really loud.
It did sound like a clap of thunder, huh? I thought it sounded real loud too.
Might be the way it is recorded and how the video is edited (i.e. firing sound not normalized)
+TaurusSI Yeah it sounded loud to me too. Probably close to what it actually sounds like.
Is it louder because of open bolt ??
+TaurusSI Yeah it sounded loud to me too, like a clap of thunder.
It would be interesting comparing the accuracy of this rifle to thst of a Carcano rifle or carbine.
i wish the 6.5 carcano round was more popular so that there might be a slight possibility at a reproduction of one of these
For the slowmo, which camera and which fps did you use?
thanks
+smitthone An Edgertronic. I don't recall the frame rate of these specific clips, but I usually use around 2000 fps for rifle actions.
A nice comparison with the contemporary N33 Swiss rifle prototype you reviewed in another video could be done.
As far as it seems, the N33 aspect seems more "modern" and refined. Not surprisingly, since it haven't to reuse pieces of a 19th century rifle.
At first sight, the N33 action seems simpler too. Tilting bolt engaged in the back of the receiver vs rotating bolt with lugs engaged in helicoidal slots in the front of the receiver.
Then, in reality, the N33 bolt and carrier are pieces of fine watchmaking, with a lot of presumably costly machining involved, while the Mod.X bolt and carrier are as simple and crude as they can be.
The Mod.X has an effective safety, that seals the action and locks the bolt in forward position, on an empty chamber. The N33 safety is not as effective, since it don't seal the action, and allow the bolt to move back (enough to extract a round? In this case it would be even dangerous).
The Mod.X uses a dated Manlicher clip system that holds six rounds. The N33 uses a modern detachable magazine that holds... five rounds (military brass minds at work here "give too much rounds to a soldier, and he'll waste them!").
Unfortunately we didn't see the N33 working.
Recalling your videos on the Pederson, you talkiing about the lubricated (well hard wax) ammunition being not all that well received. But you said the Italians were using lubricated before although on a different class of arms. Was it more acceptable in general outside of the US or was that something that shifted in the 30s?
They used lubed ammo on their Breda 30 LMGs, but those were lubed INSIDE the gun, as it had an oil reservoir (that liked to collect dirt and sand). Having ammo pre-lubed was considered 'too much' for a lot of militaries.
+Sjon Kosse Then US used lubed ammunitions on the HS 404s. Sometimes, where there isn't an available substitute, or at least not one good enough, you have to accept some quirky feature of the weapon.
didn't realize that the engineer of the enterprise designed a rifle. cool.
Open bolt, that surprises me!
I imagine if these went into mass production, there would be closed bolt conversions available for the surplus market. It really irks me.when someone goes to all the trouble of designing a locking gas action, only to give up half way and go for all the drawbacks of open bolt.
While taking a walk near some italian fortifications with my metal detector I found an empty clip which looked a lot like the one used in the Model Ten, do you happen to know if it's proprietary for this rifle or if it's a standard italian clip?Thanks for your awesome work as usual!
It is a standard Carcano clip. All Carcano, whether 6.5 or 7.35, used them. Also, refurbished Vetterli rifles converted to fire the 6.5 Carcano cartridge for rear use in an emergence (WWI) also used these clips.
Thanks good sir!
Good boy
The shots in this vidoe seem really loud, almost all the other videos don't. Another video that seemed loud was the VG1-5, but one gets that recording shooting down a tunnel. By way of comparison, the mpl video seemed really quiet. The street sweeper sounded quiet for 12 guage, but that's a real oldie. dosent make a difference, all of Ian's videos are very good.
Did that bolt handle hit you in the nose a few times?
Is it just me or is the dwell time on this rifle really short. Might not need lubricated ammo if it gave the brass more time to cool. Just a thought, could just be an illusion because of the long lock time making the dwell look overly short by comparison.
Haha Am I the only one who gets a bunch of childrens videos in the suggestions every time I watch one of these?
Also great videos keep up the good work
What brand of ammunition were you shooting in this?
+Andy Shoots St. Louis Prvi Partisan
That's what I figured. PPU Carcano has a really thin rim. I wonder if that compounded the extraction issues.
What kind of oil is used on oiled ammunition?
+raider762 I used random gun oil from my range bag.
+Forgotten Weapons Thanks for the info. I thought gun oil, cause motor oil might be too thick.
+raider762 There are many people who run normal motor oil on ammo as well. Many AR owners oil bath their chambers as well while shooting steel case ammo like wolf&tula etc instead of oiling the ammo itself. If that helps at all.
+n premoe Oil bathing is probably the best idea, but I still consider the need for cartridge lubrication to signify a poor design. Perhaps if it had a little more development time the designers could get the cycle timing right so that it wouldn't need lubed ammo, but then again the designer should have made the gun closed-bolt to begin with.
+raider762 The Italians probably used olive oil.It was not unusual for them to use it because it was common that they used it in their Breda machineguns the models 30 and 37 which had lubricating reservoirs to oil the cartridges during firing.Olive oil was used as a lubricant for centuries for some weapons and machinery as a substitute before petroleum based oil.Petroluem oil was used first then olive oil was used as probably used in an emergency subsitute.
Good review but I suspect that the cartridge lubrication issue is actually just a workaround for the true problem of conducting the test with a modern reloaded or commercial cartridge with different bullet weight and recoil properties than the original military round. The latter had a unique 160gr bullet of non-standard diameter compared to modern 6.5mm bullets, proprietary extruded "Solenite" powder and berdan primers. It is understandable that due to lack of fresh original military ammo the tester had to resort to an available alternative, but probably not ideal, ammo solution.
Man that reciprocating bolt handle so close to your face makes me hella scared
16:19 Is that burning powder blowing back from the chamber?
more carbon deposits.
No catridge case
Oh man, too bad it didn't stick around longer and get developed into a closed bolt gun. That op-rod system is quite elegant, I'd say being short stroke those right angles around the magazine wouldn't be that big of a deal with durability.
How was it recoil-wise? Seemed pretty pleasant.
Scotti did develop a closed bolt version of the Model X.
Two were tested in the UK as the "Scotti Lee Enfield" in 1939-40. They failed miserably, suffering many parts breakages and being terribly inaccurate.
Why did this rifle need lubricated ammo? I mean, sure, it doesn't function without it, but what exactly is causing the rifle not to function properly? And could anything be done in this prototype fase to prevent the need for lubricated ammo in a production rifle?
+4991Ares Extraction pressure is too high.
Yeah me too
No mud test for this one? ;-)
fantastico lo scotti, peccato che sia raro
I see another problem with this design. Suppose a soldier forgets to push forward on the trigger after inserting a clip and instead pulls the trigger. He will then put a hole where it's not supposed to go. Can the safety be engaged beforehand and still allow the bolt the travel forward over the round?
+uzi75020 No, because the safety can only be engaged when the bolt is forward.
+uzi75020 Is like if, in a bolt action design, the soldier forgets to turn on the safety, after having inserted the rounds and closed the bolt, and instead he pulls the trigger. No weapon is completely idiot-proof.