19th century 38 caliber cartridges de mystified
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ต.ค. 2024
- This week’s video is called “De-Mystifying 19th century .38 caliber cartridges.”
It will provide all the poop on the evolution of the .38 Colt lineage of cartridges, which led to today’s .357 Mag.
It will also explain why .38 S&W doesn’t interchange with any other cartridge, and became an evolutionary dead end.
I’ll talk about why the “.38 S&W Special” confuses people into thinking it is related to the .38 S&W, when it is actually derived directly from the .38 Long Colt.
Hopefully some folks will find it interesting, but, if I just made it more confusing, let me know in the comments.
Mike Beliveau links
/ duelist
mikebeliveau.com/
Thanks Mike. I've been a gun guy for 60 years and have never heard as comprehensive an explanation of these cartridges before. You're a natural teacher and I thank you.
I’m glad you liked it.
I agree as well! Very informative Mr Duelist!!! God bless and GodSpeed... 🤠🤠🤠
Rather good job of it.
I knew the .38 S&W Special was developed from the .38 LC which was developed from the 38 SC. What I didn't know that it was originally called the .38 Center Fire (long & short).
@@TheMrPeteChannel That name 'structure' was common. My thought is it differentiated those 'new' center fire type rounds from the previous and less positive rimfire rounds. Also, it manifested the advertising theory of 'new and improved'. At the same time the naming was also proprietary. The .44-40 was formally the .44 Winchester Central Fire, .38-40 was fully the .40 Winchester Central Fire and the .32-20 was similarly named.
On the proprietary nature when the .44 Magnum revolver and cartridge was introduced in 1956, the round itself was developed by Remington. It was 'officially' the .44 Remington Magnum. S&W was working with Remington, built the first revolver to use the cartridge. Much hay was made from that for S&W.
Well said! The .38 family is certainly versatile, both then and now.
Thank you Mike for giving us the “Whole Enchilada” explanation on the difference between these historical cartridges. You continue to be an incredible source of knowledge for us amateur historians. Keep those videos coming please.
Thanks!
I got into this confusion when I got a Smith and Wesson lend lease WW2 pistol chambered in 38 S&W . Thanks for your video.
I knew a tunnel rat from the Vietnam era who used a 38 S&W webley. He lived to tell me about it in the 80s. It worked.
@@erlycuyler - Was he an Aussie (a "Digger")? The Australian and iirc the N.Z, military were using British weapons for many years. Aussies and some "Kiwis" served in South Vietnam as part of SEATO.
@@gusloader123 No,he was Canadian. Volunteered to go.
@@erlycuyler Hi. Thanks for the reply. There were many Canadians that came south of the Border and joined the U.S. military during the "Vietnam-era" and many served in Vietnam. {The L.A. times did a long article with photos about that in the early-mid 1980's. Something NEVER mentioned by the draft-dodgers and hippies.}
Just last week I was chatting (replying actually) on a USMC page on Facebook with a guy from Manitoba who came south and joined the Corps. 🙂
Thank you for explaining the difference between 38 colt and 38 S&W .
Excellent! That was very interesting and since I'm interested in that type of history it's not boring at all. Thanks very much for the video have a great day and stay safe and keep your powder dry!
Well Mike once again you have managed to unconfuse the hell out of me, no small feat! Thank you!
A great video as always, Mike, thank you. I thought I "knew" a couple of things that turn out to be wrong.
Mike - There is so much history associated with firearms development. Thanks for the clear explanation of this part. 👍
As usual, superbly well done! I have Colts and Smith’s in the mentioned calibers. I have gotten used to reloading all the variants - I found that the .38 Short Colt to be a “wife” friendly round for her to practice with her light weight .38 Special Ruger LCR.
Well if you can find .38 short colt for cheap in your area I don't see why not but if you wanted extra light recoiling rounds it might be cheaper and easier to find .38 special wadcutterd
This content is valuable. I hope you protect it by uploading on multiple platforms.
Great history on the development of the .38!
I love them too break revolvers too. I’ve got several Harrington & Richardson top breaks but mine are in .32 S&W and one in .32 S&W long and one Iver Johnson. I always wanted one of them Harrington & Richardson Defender 925 in .38 S&W just because it is a unique looking top break.
Thank you
Umberti makes Schofield in 38 special
Excellent video. Best explanation I ever heard. The .38 RF and .38 CF / SC I never hear of. People get confused when their revolver notes .38 S&W, so the owner goes and picks up a box of. 38 SPL. I find it now becoming hard in Canada to find .38 S&W ammo. The market is almost gone. Too bad about that.
Excellent unraveling of the historic string. Thank you. My Colt police positive further confuses the issue with the barrel stamp of 38 Colt. Just manufacturer stubbornness of not accepting 38 SW for barrel stamp. These pistols in the 1930's were available in 38 Special and 38 SW.
I really enjoyed your very detailed overview of this cartridge family. However, you forgot to mention the final iteration, and the "red headed step -child" of the family, the extremely short lived 357 Remington Maximum, which was a lengthened version of the 357 Magnum.
You brought back a memory. When I first got a cartridge handgun 18 years ago it was a Colt Official Police from 1944 (proofhouse). I knew next to nothing about handgun ammo. I went to a Houston gunstore one day and ask for .38 Special ammo. They gave me a box of one brand like Winchester .38 Spl and another called Remington .38 S&W (yeah) and told me both will shoot in my gun. Imagine my surprise when I got home and examined these shorter .38 S&W rounds...but then realized they would not fit into my chambers. I took them back the next day, the store owner apologized and said his employee made a mistake and those rounds are a completely different round from the .38 spl family. LOL
This was a real informative video. I happened to see a gun that accepted the 38 smith and Wesson Cartridge and at that time wondered why it was called that. Now I know.
The other confusing thing is a 36 cap and ball that the 38s we're developed from is 38 caliber and the 38 cartridge guns are 36 caliber!
I never really knew the difference between these cartridges! Thanks for clearing it up for me !
A complicated history made understandable and interesting. Thanks for posting.
Great job as always. Thank you for your devotion to firearm history.
Excellent topic Mike. Enjoy your program. History is my favorite subject, especially Firearms history.
Thanks for the in depth explanation of the evolution of the 38's. A lot of "we'll use their dimensions, but not their name" was going on then. The way you explained .38 S&W and .38 Special, I think of it like 9mm Luger and 9mm Makarov. The same neighborhood, but no interoperability. The size is a nominal designation, just like ½ inch pipe does not measure 0.500".😉
So informative as usual. That being said my mind want a different direction, and that is bullet versatility. By the previous videos subject content gave me bullet dementions that sounds as though it would make a great target choice for the cap n ball revolvers themselves. Looks like with information it would work.
Now that being said I have put together some bullet designs with my idol mind of what would call the 4 calibers of percussion revolvers. .31,.36, .44 and .45(ruger old army, possibly dragoon/Walker bullets). I have come up with several designs in each to try. Currently I am roughly 3 weeks away from receiving my first custom mold according to my machinist time line. The first mold is dedicated to 4 different bullets for the .31 caliber. I chose.31 first as this as you know has the least currently available options. The mold is of 3 different designs, and should be at 70, 75, 80,90 grains. My attempt for these designs is to function in the 1863 Remington pocket loading port. This because eras gone baby dragoon, and the knock off there of brass mold doesn't fit. These bullets have more a modern design. This comes from my background of the early 1980s of using gascheck design Keith bullets in my remington as my grizzly country sidearm as I was to young to own modern handguns.
Now for the question... would you be interested in taking a look at the first 4 attempts of.31 caliber bullets after mold some? When this mold is recieved I will order a. 36 caliber, so on so on as budget allows.
sure
ThankX for the great concise run through of the “.357” - .36 ball to .38 metallic cartridge history.
With all the new “plastic” handguns; I just like reloading and plinking with mild .38spl.s
Hoping, wishing and praying for reloading components to be available - loved your run through!!!
Thank you for describing the history and evolution of the 38 Colt family of cartridges. Also, while I’ve known for about 40 years that the 38 S&W is it’s own critter, I didn’t know why. Thanks for that history.
Thanks Mike, for this very informative video on the different .38 cartridges, including the background history of "Short Colt" and "Long Colt" designations. Having been a student of firearm development for many years, I found this clarification course on the .38 was most interesting and informative. In the early years of my law enforcement career, the .38 Special was a very popular cartridge with many agencies. The old .38 Police Load, using a 158-gr.Lead Round Nose bullet, that was loaded at standard specs, was/is a round that has survived a 100-year-plus lifespan. Cartridge development, that could, and did, change the standard .38 Police Cartridge, into a good self-defense round for law enforcement and civilian alike. This cartridge development would get off to a start during the early 1970's.My PD issued the Smith & Wesson Model 10-5 for duty carry. A blue steel, 4-inch standard barrel, .38 Special Service Revolver that was used by many agencies in 1971 when I started. You could carry your own revolver if it met the few qualifications needed for duty carry. For myself, a post-war production Colt Official Police. Same general specs as the Departments Model 10-5, and a revolver that had a "legendary" reputation as the ultimate cop's .38 Special Duty Revolver in pre-war times, going into the late 1940's before the rising cost of labor would make Colt go to a easier to manufacture service revolver. The life of any law enforcement service revolver depended upon the large contract bids that came from the police departments. In short, the Official Police was a revolver that demanded the skilled services of the Colt Master Craftsman in its development and subsequent sale. The trigger-action was "hand-honed" and "hand-fitted" by this Colt Craftsman. The fitting of the side plate to the frame was a time consuming affair and a chore "NOT" for the assembly line employee to do.Mike, sorry for straying away from your excellent .38 history lesson. Most interesting for sure. I carried the OP for the duration of my lawman's career. Grand-fathered in with it in 1992, when we converted the semi-automatic pistol. In the last years of my cop carebrmy old 4-inch Colt, really drew much attention at our yearly Qualification times from many of our youthful officers, many had never handled "real" cop's gun before, the .38 Special Revolver. Spanking their backside at Qual time was a real treat for an old six-gun cop. For qualification, I would use the old .38 Police Load to shoot because of its inherent accuracy. Sorry for the length Mike. My old Colt was "the ultimate" cop .38 duty revolver.
Thank you so much for the information and all the work that you do ,I have learned so much from you over the years
Good one mike thanks for a good tutorial on the history of the .38
Thank you for this lesson on the history of the .36 B&C to .38 conversion. What a road.
Thank you! This was hugely informative and cleared up so much confusion for me.
Great job Mike, thank you for the explanation and sharing your knowledge!
Another enjoyable history lesson. Thanks for this.
You explained it well, thanks!
mr.Mike, you are musick to our ears man.....God bless you.....greatings from Macedonia
Thanks Mike 😀😊😀👍🏼
Mr.Foster here: 30 years ago I bought a 38 S@W victory model revolver and bought 38 Special amp to shoot it and of course the the cartridge was to long,that’s when found out that they(the gun) was manufactured for the British during WW 1 and were chambered for 38 SW because it was the same cartridge used in the standard service Webley. Lesson learned.Thanks for your presentation.
Exactly what I was looking for... Great video
Thank you very much for clarifying this very annoying issue. I have encountered TH-camrs who think and believe the 38 Short Colt and 38 S&W are the same cartridge. Some even refer to the 38 S&W as the "38 Short."
And of course are willing to argue to their last breath about it.
Very annoying.
.38 S&W is very close to 9mm Parabellum though, practically the same length and like a .06 difference in base diameter. I don't about ballisticly, but case dimension wise, they are very similar.
Very helpful. Great video.
Wonderful video Sir! Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us. Keep up the great work!
A very good presentation, thank you. I'd like to see the same lineage presentation of the .32 caliber cartridges if you're so inclined.
I'll vote for that too. I remember a friend of mine had just acquired an antique pocket revolver in .320 British and, whilst visiting Albuquerque, I was able to find some suitable brass for him to hand load.
Fantastic and interesting video. Thanks MIKE 👍.
Thanks!
I really enjoy the ballistics videos! Very interesting!!!!!!!!!!!
Confusing as the subject is, this was a very good explanation.
Thanks!
I like the look of that Remington No3 with the spur trigger, any chance of doing a video on it?
Oh, I'm sure the reason the US Army specified the dimensions of the .38 Long Colt cartridge for the new revolvers was so they could use any existing stocks of that cartridge as well as the new .38 Special cartridges it was chambered to use. For all the money the military infamously spends, never underestimate the power of military bean-counters to want to use up old stocks of stuff that are already on hand. BTW, the whole story was very nicely explained, thank you.
I agree. That is my thinking as well.
That's why the M1 Garand was switched from .276 Pedersen to 30-06 at the last minute.
@@TheMrPeteChannelnever even heard of that Pedersen round , I have to look that up now
Finally, now I understand and it isn't as convoluted as i thought it might be. Thanks!
If you wouldn't mind. It would be neat to see a video on 44 henry to magnum.
Thank you for this, I love the .38 catridge. Hope all is well
This was a very interesting learning experience
Rhanks for the clarification. Thank you for making it interesting to watch !
Hello Mike, I am 64 years old and still learning something from your great videos. Keep them coming!
Excellent subject. I have a Webly in .38 S&W. Shoots nice, low enough power for early shooters. Again Excellent video.
Great video! It caused me to take a look at my Great Aunt’s old Police Positive. Sure enough, it’s chambered for 38 Colt. I also discovered it was manufactured in 1906!
Mine was made in 1916. It is in Colt .32 Police caliber…same as .32 S&W Long…great little gun!
Many were lain low by smaller caliber projectiles right up into the time of the great war today 9mm is looked at as anemic or a baseline defensive cartridge but when it was introduced it was considered pretty powerful. I believe the .38 and its offshoots were very forward developments I carry .38 +p in a modern .357 revolver a lot of the time after much deliberation I've come to the conclusion it still holds it's own.
Thank you. I have two 38 S&W revolvers, said Enfield and S&W MP, both from WWII. Good information, I may give a try at reloading...saved all my brass. I only have reloaded for 38SPL/357.
I'm glad you liked it.
Good video. I think I have an old S&W M&P that says on the barrel. .38 Special and .38 Army (I think). So I always thought it was the .38 Long Colt too. I’ll have to look the next time I open the safe. I looked it up and the revolver was made in 1906. I also seem to remember reading that Pershing order .38 revolvers for his staff.
My Colt pre WW1 civilian is marked' Colt Army Special 38.
Still learning from you ... thanks
Would like to see a detailed version of the .32 also. I know the s&w short and long and the magnum and .327 but I know there are .32 colt and a .320 revolver too.
I own a H&R .38 S&W that was my Grandfather's, I have no idea how old it is. Neat video on the .38. 😁
Learned something today. TY.
In the '60s, I was given a revolver that was marked 38-44 Heavy Duty. A 'friend' told me a pack of lies about it, it had proven to be too dangerous, nobody made ammo for it, on and on like that. Eventually, as you might have guessed, he offered me $40 for it and I took it. I still haven't found out anything more about it.
Those guns are going for big bucks on gunbroker now. They are great guns and were the platform Elmer keith used to develop 357 magnum level loads in the 38 special case.
Mike, I enjoy your videos. Not only do I get to watch you shoot my favorite cowboy guns such as the .45 "Long Colt" and the .44 Remington "New Model Army," but I get good history lesson. Keep 'em coming. Now, for a technical question. If Thomas all the fire arm you could afford, which cap-n-ball revolver (Remington or Colt) would be good for self defense?
I prefer the Colt 1860 over the Remington
Impressive amount of knowledge. I bet it took some time to acquire.
In Europe tur 38S&W was most used and that because of the populer Webly?
Good information Mike!
Thanks!
Fantastic info! Thank you.
Thanks!
It’s nice to clarify that the 38 special was not the faulty 38 of the Philippine insurrection
Stick around another hundred years. You are too valuable!
Excellent video....thank you
When I was serving as a range officer, occasionally a person would show up with a 38 Special, and a box of 38 S&W cartridges, and be absolutely flabbergasted that they wouldn't work. They would ask why, and I would just say it is a long story....
It is a long story...when I tell it anyway...LOL
@@duelist1954 You are not long winded; just very thorough! It IS complicated!
I remember reading that the Moros were fanatic because they took drugs, and they also carried huge wooden shields
The 38 long Colt didn't have enough horsepower to penetrate the shields and still deliver a crippling blow. Also heard the 357 magnum was developed to penetrate car doors which could stop the 38 specials.
The .357 Magnum is my absolute favourite cartridge of all time. It's a firecracker in a handgun with fine trajectory, and it's a beautiful thing in a lever gun. Can it do everything? Nah, but it is absolutely plenty. It's also probably one of the best cartridges for reloaders. It's equal parts practical and phenomenal.
As a reloader I shoot .38 special the most even in the .357 I load em to 357 pressure. Why? Cuz they’re made for bp but we use modern powder so we don’t need that huge space. The smaller space is more efficient of the special! I don’t want 2 sizes of brass so I just load all sorts of diff.38 special in a huge range of weights and power. Reloading opens a huge world up.
Great video, can you please make one the 44 Caliber??
You forgot to mention the . 38 Colt New Police. :)
My sweetheart inherited what I believe is a top break, double action, hidden hammer, Iver Johnson(?) .38S&W revolver. We were afraid to fire it because, while the cylinder indexes properly, it can still rotate because there is nothing to keep it in place except mechanical resistance. It looks like it's had a long history with mismatched grips and the nickle plating warn off here and there. I have no idea when it was manufactured except probably in the late 19th or early 20th Century. I think it was carried by one of her relatives during the time when labor unions were forming in the Midwest. Strikes could get pretty nasty back then, and companies used to hire police and private goons to break them up. Those were dangerous times indeed. Anyway, I purchased some .38S&W factory loads back when it was legal to do so through the mail here in Cali, but still haven't had the courage to test it out. Besides, .38S&W is a way obsolete caliber and I had to wait months for the factory to get enough orders to make a batch profitable. I'm a re-loader so I know if I could find the cases I could come up with some mild loads to fire in it, maybe using black powder? Would I use weight or volume? And just where do I go to get the components? Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Great video BTW.
Update: It's a Harrington and Richardson .38 S&W BP hammerless Second Model frame with a mismatched auto-eject smokeless barrel and cylinder, and aesthetics aside it works well. Evidently when they switched to smokeless powder guns in 1905 they just changed the grade of steel which in my opinion was all they needed to do. But they did replace the leaf hammer spring with a coil spring. They made these guns for 50 years, 1,500,000 of them. NBD.
Great Video Mike!!! Totally unrelated question, would it be practical back in the day for a fellow to carry a Remington 1858 revolver and with several pre loaded and capped cylinders?? I've seen movies and TV shows of guys shooting 6 shots, and exchanging the empty cylinder for a loaded one. 😊 thanks
nope. people back in the day more often carried 5 shot 32 cal revolvers and were not expecting gun fights to be long running fights. and people looking for a fight would bring another entire revolver or two instead of trying to reload.
This does not seem to have been a common practice. There is no documentation for it, except for Colt Paterson revolvers.
@@seantierney3 or go grab their Henry, Winchester or Spencer out of their saddle holster....
You would not want to drop a loaded, capped cylinder.
Great video! Enjoyed the history and learned a few things as well. While I'm here I have 2 off topic questions, 1st, have you ever heard of a rifle builder by the name of Brian Turner? 2nd, today I was looking at a Colt 1861 Army, on top of the barrel was stamped " COL. SAM COLT NEW-NEW York U.S. ARMY" which generation would this be. By the way, it is a beautiful revolver and looked like it was never fired. The quality is outstanding compared to my 1860 UBERTI, even has a high quality feel while handling it. I figure if anyone would know the answer to either of these questions, it would be you.
Thanks a lot Mike. Dad once had a S&W Victory model originally chambered for 38 S&W. After WW2 it came back from the UK and rather than changing the cylinder to fire 38 Special, they just punched the chambers out to 38 Special. So, the chambers were long enough to accommodate the 38 Special, but were too wide for that cartridge. So, often we'd have split or sticky cases. Dad eventually sold it rather than replace the cylinder. Thanks for the explanation between these cartridges, it helps to explain our experiances. God bless, Rob
When I was in the Service, I used to hear guys say, "When I get out I'm gonna get me one a them Smith and Westerns. And then tell everybody that they were, "Gun Experts."
LOL!
Thanks for the great video I’ve never got around to getting a 38 special but I do have a 38s&w forhand revolver always just assumed the 38special came from that family cool video!
Very interesting , what about de-mystifying the British .455 to .476 Enfield.
I’ll put it on the list.
This is great info as always Mr. Bellevue! I have a 51 navy with a conversion cylender and first tried 38. Long Colts in it. They keyholed at 10 yards. I think the modern makes may not be heel based, though I have not downloaded one. Loaded up some lead wadcutters in 38 special cases and it resolved the issue. The next experiment is to load the LC cased with the wadcutters.
I’m kinda sad that .38 special has taken over the market. 38 S&W seems like a good cartridge to me that should see a resurgence
Thanks Mike for a great video. In Elmer Keith's book "Hell I was There" he says that when he was growing up there were a lot of old civil war veterans living in his area. According to them the .36 cal revolvers were just as good at stopping as the .44s were.
Duelist, I like this video. The history of cartridges is something that does do not get covered. If your ever looking for video ideas way not do one on an old west 18th century) cartridge like 41 Remington to 45-75 Win.
What is the velocity of the 38 center fire? The 38 S&W is around 600 fps on a hot day.
I had to explain to my brother recently that he couldn't use 38 sw in his revolver because of the ammo situation
Interestingly the TM 43-0001-27 of 1994 list the velocity of the Cartridge, Caliber .38 Ball at 725 fps and 13,000 psi about the same as the .38 LC. While commercial .38 Special tends to be around 850 - 950 fps and 17,000 to 18,000 psi. It looks like the Army was still ordering cartridges loaded to the same specs for 100 years.
Well, you've read my mind again! This video should be required viewing for anyone interested in the older guns. Though I have seen some ammunition manufacturers cheating and using the same diameter bullets in 38 S&W as the special, as well as the same diameter cases. I can't remember if you have done the same thing with the .32 cartridges, though I know you have mentioned some of the differences between Colt and S&W in that caliber also.
I think that is almost certainly correct about the reason for Smith & Wesson basing the .38 special cartridge off the .38 long Colt. It makes sense that the army, still thinking it was going to adopt an improved .38 caliber revolver, would want it to be backwards compatible with the previously adopted .38 long Colt cartridge it had issued. New .38 special revolvers, had they been adopted, would have been issued with new .38 special ammo, but it would still have been possible to use up any .38 long Colt ammo that was still out there in the army's or navy's supply system, rather than have that ammo suddenly become useless, or risk soldiers and sailors being unable to load their handguns, if the were somehow issued cases of the older cartridges for their new weapons.
Then the whole thing became moot, as the army adopted a .45 semi-auto pistol anyway, but by then the .38 special had already been developed.
Merci beaucoup monsieur Bellevue!
My good friend was a cop in Cleveland during the 60’s and 70’s one day him and I were in gunsmith school in Prescott, Az and some young know it all class mate was going. On and on how a snub nose 38 special was inadequate for defense, now I knew my friend carried a model 60 smith and my self carried a mod 36 smith, I asked my friend what he thought of this kids opinion and my friend looked at the kid and told him “we killed lots of people” he was dead serious and stone cold in his answer, the debate ended
Theres a lot of misconceptions about c&b loading too lol. Im mildly surprised some dont say you need a wad in the case to prevent chain fires lol. With as often as thats brought up, theres gotta be a wizard or something causing them
So the British choosed .38 S&W. Very intersting.
Can I ask for a similar video on the semiauto side? The .38 Browning "family" development is a bit confusing.
always good vids
Mmm H&R top break, wish those and/or Iver Johnsons were still made.
Me too!
Thank you, a particularly interesting and informative presentation.
Just wondering were there customers that had specialized revolvers made before or after the 19th century to at least 1934 that the stopping power of the 357 in black power an later smokeless power ? I know its a odd question but it seems to me that if your putting your life on the line I’d want . The best that could be made . An the guy that wanted that edge knew what he wanted . Thank you I love your videos . Bj Martin longtime black power shooter