How Does Brass Prep Affect Bullet Seating? (AMP Press Tests)
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In this video we’re going to look at different parts of rifle brass prep and the information the AMP press gives us. Each process is examined and a graph is presented of the bullet seating forces. We anticipated some of what we saw, and were surprised by other things!
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I think it would be fascinating to see brass that has been fired several times and annealed vs brass that has been fired several times and NOT annealed. And to see the effects on accuracy
Check that out th-cam.com/video/YWUw6tyzE7U/w-d-xo.html
I’d like to see brass it’s his Hornady and Nosler. Lapua and some high in breast using is not available in calipers II shoot.
I would be interested in seeing this test done but with the addition of graphite to The inside of the necks
I also think the addition of three or four times fired brass would be beneficial
I would like to see you shoot the different types of mods across a chronny, to see if what you see makes a difference to the sd and es.
@Travis Fox fantastic, can't wait :)
Me too
I’d like to see the test with dirty brass vs ss pin wet tumbled vs corn cob media.
To echo a few other people what really matters is the effects downrange, otherwise, it's all just theoretical.
I wouldbe interested in the effect of dry lube inside the case neck on seating force consistency, thank you for the great information!
Yup, we want to see a Imperial Dry Neck Lube seating test! :D
Need confirmation that chamfer + graphite inside neck = optimal prep 🤓
It looks like annealing and chamfering are the two processes that made the biggest difference in seating force. Considering the huge difference in price of an annealer vs a chamfer tool, I would like to see the difference between these two, later in the brass life.
How about a test of two batches of LC brass at the 4th or 5th firing, where one batch was annealed and FL sized between each firing, and the other batch was only FL sized and chamfered between each firing?
You can anneal cheaply with a blowtorch socket and drill. Might not be as precise as machines but unless your competing at the highest level its good enough
th-cam.com/video/7bFLi4IFSN4/w-d-xo.html
Superb video thank you. Please use Lapua brass, and no less than 10 samples. 1. Brass cleaning, non clean vs steel pins, vs corn crob 2. FL size with build in expander vs stand alone expander. 3. Different mandril sizes. With focus on springback. 4. Trimmed vs non trimmed brass 5. 1 reload vs 5 reloads.
Be interesting to see how that brass prep affects it down range on paper.
Yep- that would be the crtitcal test.
Agree. The graphs are nice for videos but “on target” performance is all that really matters
One more trap group with the LC brass neck turned to a consistent thickness would reveal if the variation is material quality related.
Frankly all the data is moot until the neck case thickness is uniform. That will probably have the biggest impact of any variable. Need to start there.
Not having confiscated equipment, I use the good old school machinist method of feel .I switched all bullet chamfering to the VLD Lymans tool over the plain Jane Lee and RCBS CHAMFERING tools. I do this for flat base or boat tail bullets now. I feel the difference in seating pressure. And the only caliber that's given me trouble is the past is 7.62x39 with run out on them. I have reloaded ammo now for 21 years and 17 different calibers. Thank you for your informative videos.
Did you anneal before you sized? That does make a huge difference.
I anneal, size without expander, sstl tumble, lube necks with Redding dry sizing graphite, mandrel, trim with Giraud trimmer, drop powder with Autotrickler, load bullets. SDs are usually between 3-10 depending on brass used. Lapua or Peterson will produce better SDs than Starline or LC or other commercial brass.
I would like to know if you can create an average trace for each group? That may make it easier to see the differences between the groups, and be able to display more that two groups at the same time. I have watched several of these AMP Press videos, and one thing has become apparent, there does not seem to be a dwell adjustment where the ram holds the full stroke for several seconds like I do with my K&M press. Dwell is important in seating uniformity just as it is important in sizing uniformity. If you watch closely as the ram retracts, the bullet seating stem jumps upward slightly as the ram retracts. That is not good, however, this may be more prevalent with the poor brass selected as my normal max seating pressures run 60#, not the 100#+ figures you are recording. Another possible problem is the ram alignment with the base. The Wilson die shifts sideways as the ram is retracted, and it appears the ram travel is not perpendicular to the base. No sideways displacement with my K&M press. I of course cannot record pressure data other than by feeling the stem holder movement, so have to make subjective instead of objective decisions on consistency.
What you need is an AMP press the shows the force removing the bullet from the case!
How about lubing the case necks along w/chamfering,brushing,with and w/out annealling.
All the graphs looked different but they all ended at the same pressure. Is this a situation where it doesn’t matter how you get there but where you end? Please go shoot these to see if they shoot different.
I can see how a different final pressure would cause a change in velocity but these didn’t vary much on the end of the graph
Are you annealing your brass after sizing,if so why ,as I was told to always anneal first then size thanks
Yes, this time we’re doing it out of order so that we can isolate the baseline prep processes from each other set of steps!
Would love to see this done with lapua brass and different type of brass preb
I would like to see how each state effects accuracy and velocity. Does a smooth seating curve translate into any perceptible accuracy/consistently difference.
Yes, we plan to!
Interesting, very interesting. However... what does it mean on target and chronograph? I cannot tell if one graph is better then the other. Is there any correlation?
Of all the few videos with this press, I haven’t seen any analysis using a lube in the necks prior to seating bullets. When I recommend this , I hear, one can’t know if one neck has more lube than another, Ol well. I use moly in my necks and get great results, low es and sd’s along with exceptional precision. Watch Lou Murdica of annealing made perfect and watch his results ! It’s on annealing made perfects TH-cam channel. Thanks!!!!!
Try coating your bullets with HBN. I'm getting ES of 4 or 5 with SD of 1 or 0 with my 6.5x47 and 140gr. Bergers and RDFs. Using Lapua brass, Reloder 16 and FGMM small primers.
*per 10 round strings.
@@murder0ne I’ve used HBN in the past with good results but it’s been a long time ago. Been thinking about trying it again soon. I’ll try it and get back to ya. Those are great results you are getting in my opinion!!!! I appreciate your feedback!!!’ Thanks!!
You guys shouldve added another step and lubed the bullets before seating I think you will see even more consistent seating pressure. Great vid thanks!
I have seen many studies on brass neck prep. It would seem the length of the neck would cause more or less drag depending on the length of the neck causing a difference in pressure build and or FPS/SD. Your thoughts? I have not seen any test on neck trim length i.e. 2.470col apposed to 2.480col or neck total surface area that's in contact with the bullet.
Thank you for this. It is interesting to watch all these experiments with good measuring instruments. At the end of the day reloaders who do not have access to sophisticated equipment may be able to develop a set of "best practise" to use that will lead to better accuracy and precision.
Graphs are a fine starting point, but let's see how those bullets shoot. After that, I would be interested to see you examine the effects of chamfering. Personally, I think there is a need for precision chamfering with a tool that holds a VLD chamfer in perfect alignment with the centerline of the case. If a damaged muzzle crown can adversely affect accuracy, it stands to reason that a case neck chamfered on an angle can tip a bullet as it jumps to the lands. I suspect that the adverse impact of poor chamfering would be more pronounced as the bullet jump increases.
I'd like to see the groups of 5 tests plotted as an average then compare the averages of all tests.
I keep hearing comments from an interview you did with Brian Litz echoing in my mind. Do some test firing to validate if any of that data actually influences your groups and sd and es readings. Even though you are seeing differences on the press data, you may find some of that has no influence on the live fire results. And I think that is more meaningful than just data on a graph...
I have found annealing to aid in sizing consistency and chamfering to aid in seating.
It would be very interesting to see graphical representations of the force required to remove the bullets from the cases after different case preparation methods. It seems to me that this would have the most impact on down range velocity and accuracy.
Awesome test. I'd like to see:
- dry lube vs no dry lube
-flat base vs boat tails
-K&M 4 degree champher tool vs std VLD champher tool
-pistol ammo - minimal bell vs moderate bell
Come on i have been reloading for 43 years i was tought by a friend of mine who was a friend of Roy Weatherby of South Gate yes the man himself all of this is just fantastic if its absolutely necessary i have loaded and shot well over 800 thousands rounds cast and copper jackets after watching you for almost 10 years i have come to the conclusion that you need to come back down to earth and back to reality maybe in a year i might check your channel out if you have i guess it's time to move on . Happy shooting and happy trails to you.. It's time to move on.
My conclusion is to just keep doing things like I've done them for the past 40 years. Clean, resize, measure case length, trim if necessary, chamfer & deburr, wet tumble, load, shoot, repeat, and anneal about every 3rd firing.
What would also be of interest , for those of us that don’t anneal, is it really worth it??
This was a fantastic video! I would love to see how a single process sizing die with expander ball compares to using an undersized neck bushing die followed by an expander die with tolerance set to a specific interference fit, like .002-.003".
@Travis Fox I'd have to agree as I just started doing that this year myself.
Can you shoot A 308 in A 30-06 Riffle ????
Can you do a comparison video with a high dollar amp annealer compared with an old-school drill and socket with brass painted with Tempilaq?
...and then show the down range results.
Those shirts should read “I reload therefore I aim”
These are good. Please continue to do these kinds of tests and combos but need to see groups on paper also when looking at the graphs because it may make a difference on the graph but not in the group.
Such a deep rabbit hole to jump down! It's great to see measured results! How about mil-spec brass against Lapua or Peterson, Alpha, Norma, etc.? Another cool one would be your mandrel sizer you are using against something like a Redding die that uses a specific bushing. Out of the box brass against some that has been neck turned for concentricity. Of course, the proof is in the accuracy. Great job!
Great feedback and ideas, we will put those in the hopper!
12:26 you stated that the graph wasn’t as consistent as you hoped it would be. IMO it seems that the peak seating force might have the most effect.
In this case, your ES was 3 pounds of seating force for that graph, and in my mind that was your most consistent when combining all the prep methods.
I would love to see this test taken out to the range and see the difference on ES, and SD, and group size!
@Travis Fox you should of marked the ones that took more or less to seat and see if that gave you the flyer on the range
Love these geek out sessions. I would like to see what groups these groups yield when you shoot them. That is after all the only result that matters.
SD and ES on velocity are equally important for long range!
@@Ultimatereloader you got me! The 3 things that matter! lol!
I'm glad you nerds enjoy doing this stuff so us rednecks can get the Cliff's Notes version because that's all we have the attention span for :).Well done men. Two thumbs up WITH double snaps!
Doing our country proud. Good gear!
What the heck does seating force even really mean? What difference does it make? As far as I could tell, all the tests ended up at about the same place which would mean neck tension to me.
The main takeaway for me is simply to recognize that anything you change in your brass prep will have some effect. And if you don’t anneal, your seating force and thus your neck tension will be different after every reload. The goal is consistency. Whatever it is that you do, do the same thing every time for the most consistent results. Who cares what that seating force graph looks like, as long as it looks the same every time you reload that piece of brass!
@@formulajoe2 It probably makes no difference at all in PRS type rifles or worse. It may or may not even make a difference in Bench rest. BUT, simply throwing numbers out there that have no meaning behind them is just noise.
Am i stupid getting x'ellent results with Factory ammo?
Got 1 moa at least with 243 S&B 100 grains soft point.
Just asking...
🖖🏻🇫🇷😎🇫🇷😎🇫🇷🖖🏻
I'd like to see
Sonic cleaned cases.
Redding Dry neck lube
Lee Collet neck dies.
Then ..maybe .
Maybe polishing inner neck, light reaming ....maybe neck turning .
I just started reloading and bought some Lapua brass and it was extremely tight for my 308 loads. I would definitely go back now and chamfer some other brand-new pieces of Lapua brass and try my reload again. But is this normal for Lapua brass? Conversely I was loading once fired 308 Winchester brass and actually had to next size it down to 330 using my S-Type die to get some neck tension for the same Hornady bullets. It was the complete opposite of my experience with a brand new Lapua brass. maybe you can do a video on that....? Thank you I really enjoy your videos, don't ever stop
I did some tests: trim length, weigth, deburring, primer pocket uniformer, flash hole, full length sizing, annealing, nylon brush the necks and pressure seating. 29 brass and the velocity that result was very intresting. The pressure between 17 to 25 psi was the more uniform in velocity and grouping with SD of 4 . and the all of 29 shooting was 14 of SD.
Well, I don't want to be critical but honestly I don't see many people buying this press to use with their Lake City Brass. I would try Lapua of course, Alpha, Norma and Peterson. Also I would have tested Redding Imperial molly neck lube. Try neck turned once fired brass..
Curious about Barnes Bullets and crimping practices. For example 300 Win Mag and the 130g TTSX BT. I had better accuracy not crimped.
May I request: neck turned (11 thou wall thickness), chamfered, once fired, annealed, bronze brushed, nylon brushed with a coat of one shot case lube, 2 thou neck tension...please!
Try bushing die without expanderball cases vs full lengh die with expander. Run cases thru 10 shots and se how they "age" in hardness. (Workharden). Should affect neck tension and case head life.
People usually anneal not only to get more life out of cases. But when you have a "mixxed bag" with once fired and lots fired cases. Annealing, sizing and then trimming makes them more or less the same when it comes to shooting.
I have a feeling that the initial spike will correlate with damage to the bullet base and jacket due to scraping of the jacket along a rough internal neck or neck with a larger angle. Differences in the initial spike will likely correlate with changes in bullet yaw leaving the barrel and BC due to base/jacket damage, and will likely show up in group size on paper. These effects on paper should increase with distance, and should be able to be tested with groups, or better yet, with equipment that measures changes in BC of fired bullets over distance (ie. New Oehler 89). Looking at your results, the damage to bases/jackets will likely be minimized with careful VLD chamfering and then brushing or setting inside diameter with a mandrel to smooth out any burs or ridges created by the chamfering.
I feel that consistencies in the remainder of the curve past the initial peak will correlate with velocity SD/ES, and will be able to be observed on a chronograph and on paper at long range only. This will likely correlate with consistent neck wall thickness, brass consistency, brass “elasticity,” and lubricicity; and will be affected by brass quality, neck turning, annealing, inside neck cleaning, lubrication/graphite. It would be great if you could figure out a way to measure bullet pull weight and consistency, and correlate this with seating pressure, velocity, and accuracy.
Great work and fascinating what this equipment will be able to tell . The most important thing will always be what changes and effects actually correlate with consistency and accuracy, and why. I wish I had the time and equipment to help. Hope my thoughts give you some ideas. Mike D
I’d like to see what a light spray of Hornady Case Lube does. I put my reloading tray on some paper and lightly spray from a few feet away four times, turning the tray 90° each spray. I’m spraying on a downward angle around 45°. I know a small amount of that spray gets in the necks. This is towards the end of my brass prep. steps, so I’ve already done depriming , cleaning, annealing, body sizing, neck trimming, chamfering. My next steps are neck sizing, seating primers, loading the powder and finally seating the bullets. I also dip the ends of the bullets in a dry powder before seating. I’m trying to get smooth, consistent seating and some prevention from cold welding in case some of the loaded ammo is going to sit for a while. My ES’s and SD’s are down where I want them and my rounds are pretty concentric with ADG brass using a Redding 3 die set (body, neck and competition seating). I have not yet tested rounds that have sat for a month or so. If they retain their speed consistency and give me the same velocities the I’ll be satisfied that the bullets are not developing a molecular bond with the necks (I.e. they’re not starting to stick, or cold weld to the necks).
Gavin, great installment on your channel... Super interesting!. How about the same test in the same order of your reloading process. Load ammo, and take away one process at a time, then see if any steps are unnecessary. Maybe the control group is sized brass, annealed, chamfered, necks scrubbed. And work backwards.
Not my favorite video by far from
Gavintube. I understand the concept but this was like watching paint dry. Ultimately, the result need to be compared in your shooting groups. I felt this pressing data was “moot”.
Wow, that seating force was very high & the differences of 40+ Lbs was not remotely consistent.
I don't know what you guys do for your brass prep but, my seating force is between 20 & 30 Lbs with 90% being between 22 & 28 Lbs.
I noticed also that the annealed case consistency was surprisingly poor & I believe the only lot to fail to seat to the specified depth consistently.
I'm sorry guys but there has to be something wrong somewhere, especially with regard to the annealed cases. My annealed cases are so far removed from virgin or once fired cases that I have to wonder if your cases were annealed at all.
Chamfered 3000 still scratches copper.what tension u want? Across/ the board? Using 17 ' shoulder fits snug
It would be nice to see a comparison of different premium brass. Lapua, Peterson, Norma, Nosler etc. It would also be good to see what impact that would have on your MV SD and ES. I would be nice to see if the variance that you see on your pressure seating graphs translate into MV SD and ES. It is hard to figure out where to spend money on reloading equipment to reduce MV SD and ES.
Gavin, I love your videos on prep but one of the items that would be interesting would be the effect on loaded round to chamber neck size and the clearance that produces the best results. I had noticed that on my 260 Improved chamber I originally opted for a 2 thou clearance but noticed afterwards that a round could not easily be inserted into the expanded neck so I have further necked turned the brass another 1/2 thou to give me a 3 thou clearance from the .296 chamber neck. Have you done any tests on this at all and possible effect on accuracy?
Might be a good exercise to hand to Travis when he gets the time. What neck clearance do you run on your "accuracy" chambers? Regards Rob
How about checking seating pressure on cases that are annealed AFTER being resized? I ask because a video by the AMP people shows that every process in resizing adds to case hardness. It got me thinking that if I changed my order of reloading to - de-prime, tumble, trim, size, ANNEAL, prime, charge and seat the bullet that the only thing affecting case neck hardness after annealing would simply be bullet seating. It would be interesting to see AMP press test results on cases done in that order and then see if there is any difference at the range on paper. I plan to run some tests and hope that you will as well.
I would like to see if there is a detectable difference on the range. I suspect unless it is in a benchrest gun it won't make a bit of difference and the groups will all be the same. The powder, seating depth and of course all the same components make the biggest difference. If you shoot through a 308 gas gun (AR10) the battering of the cartridge in the magazine and the violent loading process will most likely negate any difference.
How do each of these fire?
Range? Accuracy?
Don't know why it matters when seating them, but I assume there should be differences in what I mentioned.
Be interested to see how Neck Treatment ... specifically inside reaming or using the IDOD neck tool compares to the more traditional case prep methods you've shown here. 🤔
How about dipping the necks and/or bullets into a graphite dry neck lube?
Or treating the necks and/or bullets with moly coating?
The best video about reloading i have ever seen.❤❤❤ Pleeeeeaaase continue this process. Its like scientific method. Very nice ❤❤❤
Would like to see comparison of annealling techniques. The AMP VS. an open flame annealer VS. hand annealing with a drill VS salt bath method VS no annealing.
What a great tool to see what steps contribute and don’t contribute to consistency. So many times I wonder if my time is worth an extra step or if that step just helps me sleep at night.
Let's see what the groups look like what makes the most difference in group size if I don't chamfer do my groups open up? What steps can I Skip if I have to report a lot of rounds quickly?
Isn't LC brass already annealed! Dry lube in the necks and trim length would also factor in as well I'm thinking 🤔 Great video!
I’m really enjoying this data, and to further other comments, it really matters down range. I’m becoming such a reloading nerd, this is awesome!
M.E. to M.E. that analysis at the end was pretty weak. I think the most meaningful way to compare the result would be to integrate the max minus the min over distance that should produce a number that represents your consistency rather than just throwing a bunch of traces on screen. Can the software not do that?
Machinist to Machinist it would be interesting to compare the bronze brush spun on that prep center vs one that was handle mounted and just pressed in and pulled out. The lay you are putting inside the neck should make a difference and should be lower when the lay and press direction align (also I don't have a prep center so handle mount, in and out once, is how I do it).
I watched the previous video as well and I didn't hear you guys really go into detail about the graph, like what's being measured? I'm guessing up the side is force measurement and along the bottom is the ram travel distance?
Great video guys. I would like to see if not using the power station would make a difference so instead of having a horizontal scratch pattern in the neck you would have a vertical scratch pattern by cleaning the necks with a brush by hand.
I’d like to see this but with primers. Using the depth cutter deburring the flash hole using hand primer compared to press primer seater. With accuracy groups.
I would love to see unprepped lapua brass that’s never been fired compared to prepped lapua brass that’s never been fired.
How good is factory lapua brass really and can it be improved upon?
bronz brush removes oxidation and then removes a micro level of brass which reduces wall tension on bullets.....
I consider myself as a hunter reloader using brass that is mostly reloaded minimum of one time and in most cases multiple times. I do not anneal, but clean, trim and chamfer all cases before reloading. I think most of your testing is slightly beyond what what some of us do and still hope for accuracy! Living in the northeast I don't get to shoot beyond 100yds to test my loads and only get to shoot further when I get to hunt anything west of here. If you can test the accuracy of the loads that you produced in your testing it might show if it makes a whole lot of difference.
I watched this again, for the third time. I think I have a problem. Chamfer chamfer omg … it’s stuck in my head now
Test with graphite powder as a lub on bullet shank. And also like to see the graph with the master spring seater, is that consistent graph.... Did u use an expander mandrel or std expander ball die?
That seating of the last bullet of the bronze brush only cases had a significant “crunch” during the seating. Would that have had something to do with the higher initial break then the others like maybe a powder kernel being stuck in the neck or something?
The last test was skewed because you didnt get great results with a bronze brush which raises the interior of the neck sort of like a extremely crude threading.I would do it over without brass brushing. Use lapua and nosler and norma etc to see the differences.
I think you should also add a group with the necks lubricated. Either dry graphite or petroleum based.
Could you give us the ending psi. It really looked like on the just annealed test that all ending psi was the same. Mathematically speaking the force in will be the force out. If the psi is all the same then the release on those bullets should give a very good es and sd. Please tell me you fired them and if so can we know?
Id like to see what difference it would make if a light coating was put on the sides of the projectiles the ones used to resize brass wax / spay cans like hornady / lube them up to cut back on friction ?
Hi, my name is Craig and yes I am a reloading nerd! I found this very interesting and not boring at all! Lol I live data like this. To me I think the last step should be to turn the necks after the mandrel and see the difference. My guess is a lot of the inconsistencies are due to neck thickness variations.
How about comparing brass that has been dry media tumbled vs Steel Pin Wet Tumble.
I would like to see the results from using dry neck lube before using the mandrel then bullet seating without first removing the dry lube
Great video!!! I agree with some other folks. Several time fired brass with graphite in the necks.
Great Info, I'm late to the game for a response, but I'd like to see how graphite in the neck would affect seating pressures and range testing
I really liked the nerding out on the process, but I request some improvements in the presentation of the data. It was disappointing to watch the whole video and then not see you make the final connection to make a quantitative conclusion. It would be more meaningful to plot the average trace in addition to a colored envelope showing the standard deviation. If there are outliers defining a large spread, that is part of the data set that you need to quantify in order to arrive at a scientifically meaning conclusion.
I would like to see the down range test and what the chronograph shows for the FPS and the ES between the different groups.
Would be interesting to see what would happen if you took the chamfered brass and then polished the case mouth with some 0000 steel wool. Take a small piece of steel wool and stuff it in the end of a nut driver and spin it in a drill and compare the two.
The only way this comparison would be some what accurate is if the test where done with the same 5 cases. The variance from case to case will make a huge difference just like testing loads. The only way to truly test loads is with a single case annealed between each test firing
The only test that matters is how they group, I would be curios to see you take all the outliers and shoot them at distance and see if there is really any significant difference.
This is way to anal retentive for me. I usually love your channel, but this is kinda ridiculous.
Seems like the initial spike in seating resistance is an event that would only occur as the bullet is seated. It would not occur as the bullet exited the case.
Is there a follow up with groups and velocity? It would also be fun to see a group using one of each in the same firing to see if and where they scattered around.
Id like to see ADG brass with Berger bullets annealed vs not annealed and difference in group size and es
Thanks for an interesting comparison. What if the necks are trued with a concentric tool? Same wall thickness