I find the topic of kenosis very helpful when discussing difficult Scriptural passages. The Holy Spirit 'emptied' Himself into sacred writ as He did with the Incarnation - God humbled Himself, clothed Himself in our fallen nature for the sake of our salvation; a act of supreme redeeming charity.
This seems wrong. If death is so great, why did Christ sweat blood in the garden asking the cup be taken from him? Also why do the scriptures bother speaking of “trampling down death by death” - and what exactly are we being saved from except death? Why is “death the last enemy to be defeated” and why is death spoken of as evil in the scriptures? I see very little evidence, scriptural, patristic, or otherwise, that suggests Christ is saving us from our “attitude towards death” rather than death itself.
I agree with you. But I see how there concept could fit within a traditional paradigm in this sense: Christ has transformed death by his death on the cross away from a senseless suffering and into a redemptive suffering, such that we can participate by excepting the sufferings given to us in this life with joy unto our sanctification.
Think about what death is to an animal. It doesn't understand what death is or what it means for either itself or those of its kin. At the fall, Adam and Eve's eyes were opened. They now understood and had a new awareness of death and suffering that brought about a new and permanent condition. The only way to free them from death is to make the suffering redemptive and the death a rebirth. This is what Christ did for us on the cross. The agony in the garden comes from His human nature, resisting the voluntary extreme suffering and death that comes with the cross. Christ is fully human and would experience the emotions and temptations of a human about to face the cross and the abandonment of almost all his friends. But He also has perfect virtue and is sinless (due to his divine nature), so He continues on through the pain to accomplish His will. So the reason death is ultimately good is that it serves as a participation in the perpetual kenosis (emptying) of self that is the Trinitarian life. Here, we can surrender completely to God.
You guys are living in your very own allegory of the cave, such puny minds incapable of knowing the infinite God and all His creation and power, sit in judgment of what IS and what might have been. Then decide like homosexuals that "Gord made me this way, so it must be the right way". No world without dirt? Really? Such limited thinking. Stuck in the cave.
Amazing discussion. Please have him back on!
I find the topic of kenosis very helpful when discussing difficult Scriptural passages. The Holy Spirit 'emptied' Himself into sacred writ as He did with the Incarnation - God humbled Himself, clothed Himself in our fallen nature for the sake of our salvation; a act of supreme redeeming charity.
GREAT discussion thanks so much!! Enjoyed it. 🙏❤️
Regardless, this was a really great discussion and I'm grateful for both of you. Hope to hear Dr. Ramage on again.
What about a pre-cosmic fall?
You would find Tolkien to be good company. He claimed stories were ultimately about death.
Don't know if you have read the story, Athrabeth. It's cool
This seems wrong. If death is so great, why did Christ sweat blood in the garden asking the cup be taken from him? Also why do the scriptures bother speaking of “trampling down death by death” - and what exactly are we being saved from except death? Why is “death the last enemy to be defeated” and why is death spoken of as evil in the scriptures? I see very little evidence, scriptural, patristic, or otherwise, that suggests Christ is saving us from our “attitude towards death” rather than death itself.
I agree with you. But I see how there concept could fit within a traditional paradigm in this sense: Christ has transformed death by his death on the cross away from a senseless suffering and into a redemptive suffering, such that we can participate by excepting the sufferings given to us in this life with joy unto our sanctification.
Think about what death is to an animal. It doesn't understand what death is or what it means for either itself or those of its kin. At the fall, Adam and Eve's eyes were opened. They now understood and had a new awareness of death and suffering that brought about a new and permanent condition. The only way to free them from death is to make the suffering redemptive and the death a rebirth. This is what Christ did for us on the cross. The agony in the garden comes from His human nature, resisting the voluntary extreme suffering and death that comes with the cross. Christ is fully human and would experience the emotions and temptations of a human about to face the cross and the abandonment of almost all his friends. But He also has perfect virtue and is sinless (due to his divine nature), so He continues on through the pain to accomplish His will.
So the reason death is ultimately good is that it serves as a participation in the perpetual kenosis (emptying) of self that is the Trinitarian life. Here, we can surrender completely to God.
You guys are living in your very own allegory of the cave, such puny minds incapable of knowing the infinite God and all His creation and power, sit in judgment of what IS and what might have been. Then decide like homosexuals that "Gord made me this way, so it must be the right way". No world without dirt? Really? Such limited thinking. Stuck in the cave.