I sure do hope you are sending some of these repairs/corrections to the manufacturer so they can take the appropriate action. If you are correcting these things, shouldn't the makers of these guns take action (on your fix) so that these guns don't get a bad rap and they can make a lot of money down the line and cut down on the frustration.
Great video, you folks do really good work on the new BHP clones. I am waiting for you to get your hands on the recently released FN version. I do have one question, in your discussion of hardness you referred to what you 'would expect to see' in a FN Browning. I think it would enhance the presentation if there was a 3rd column on your spread sheet, showing what the base FN specification is for these components. A relative comparison between the two manufacturers is good, but how do they compare the the base FN hardness specification? And once that comparison is done, what do the variations from the base specifications mean, if anything.
Just purchased one of the Girsan MC P35's from my local shop and have been watching various videos about it and the Hi Power's design to get up to speed on it. I have not fired my pistol yet, but have done my typical detailed cleaning and initial inspection of the firearm in preparation for it's first range trip. My pistol does not have the issue with the trigger lever that your particular example shows here.
After reading all of the surface hardness figures for SA-35, one has to ask whether or not Springfield makes all of the parts in house. It is a great thing that there will be so many Hi-Powers coming out. But manufacturers need to get it right first before it goes out for sale to the public.
Probably should add that typical performance of 9mm NATO where the 124 gr. FMJ is standard, velocity runs around 1200 FPS, depending on barrel length. There are a good many American brands of 124 gr. JHP +P ammo that do NOT chronograph as fast. Unfortunately, American ammo-makers have decided to make the +P designation a marketing tool rather than a truly accurate performance spec, and rarely (if ever) do they match velocity spec, even when fired from barrels longer than the typical 4" factory Test Barrel. That from a guy with 36 years experience handloading and testing factory ammo along with handloads.
Hi Kevin. I know it's a rather old comment but I hıpe you'd see and reply. What's your opinion on MKEK 9mm ammo which is pretty much all you can get in Turkey not counting a few new/unproven brands? I know they are just about +P in power and 124 Gr FMJ. And the primers are German made Geco brands mostly which happened to be rather harder than others (hence the strong striker/firing pin springs on the Turkish guns). Thanks.
@@almatt8310 9mm is a subject of mass confusion. 9 x19mm is 35,000 PSI per SAAMI while +P is 38,500 PSI, and nothing different from the older existing rating when SAAMI tested in CUP, Copper Units of Pressure. When SAAMI began PSI testing they lowered the pressure of the 9 x 19mm. Supposedly for pistols of questionable quality while the only thing that's really questionable is SAAMI's obfuscation. There really needs to be one single standard for the 9 x 19mm, and that's 9mm NATO. They use a different and more accurate test method than SAAMI, but the pressure still results in PSI. Or BARs and Mega-Pascals. 9mm NATO is an original spec for a 124 gr. (8 gram) FMJ at 1225 FPS, now more like 1200. I've been handloading 9 x 19mm since before +P ever existed, and IMO, it stands for Pink Elephant. Since the US Military adopted the M9 and the 9mm NATO cartridge, anyone who has been making pistols since then, and wants to compete in the military market, is making their pistols for the 9mm NATO cartridge. Some domestic Pistol makers may tell you that +P can be fired sparingly, and that's most likely due to the lighter recoil spring their pistols are shipped with. When in doubt, just observe the distance your cases eject from the pistol. 6' is a good baseline, but up to 10' is not an issue. And for those who shoot warmer loads continually, find the manufacturers rating for the recoil spring, and add heavier springs like the same pistols made for .40 S&W or .357 SIG. Usually, that's about 2# heavier. And for those like me who like 147 gr. JHPs at around 1125 FPS, and not the subsonic garbage, go up 3#. The reality is that American made 9 x 19mm ammo will not come very close to the ammo-makers spec for velocity. I've chronographed plenty of Factory 9mm +P defense loads and whatever they claim from their "4" Test Barrel" ain't gonna happen. Not even from a 4.5" barrel! The reality is that the +P designation for 9 x 19mm ammo is mostly a marketing tool to indicate higher velocity than a "standard pressure" load. You ain't gonna wear out a quality made 9 x 19mm pistol by shooting 9mm +P. If that were the case, they wouldn't make models that are essentially the same pistol in .40 S&W or .357 SIG. The key thing is the recoil spring weight. For steady use of +P go up by 2# on the recoil spring. For 9mm NATO, a 1# increase will do fine if it's needed. I wouldn't worry about it unless your cases are being ejected beyond the 6 - 10' range from the pistol.
@@almatt8310 Sorry, Matt, but all I know about Turkish 9mm NATO is that Sarsilmaz, sold by SAR USA in the US is spec'd with the typical 124 gr./8 gram bullet at 1200 FPS. I don't know anything about MKEK, but think it's likely that the Turk ammo-makers load similarly. I also got into some specifics in the earlier reply.
Just watched part 2 and along with part 1 some really good info. Pointing out the slide fractures that the Israelis experienced with the "hotter" ammo, and possible failure to go to heavier recoil springs would certainly seem a factor. The Girsan MC P35 seems solid overall. Having experience with 2 other Turkish brands that I trust, Canik and particularly Sarsilmaz and their 2000 CZ/Witness clone, these companies mostly test, or maybe always test-fire with 124 gr. 9mm NATO that is definitely higher in pressure (36,500 PSI/CIP) than standard pressure ammo sold in the US (35,000 PSI/SAAMI), slightly different testing methods as well. It's also important to note that Turkey is one of the world's largest producers of Chromium, where some of their Blue/Black finishes go over steel that's nearly stainless before a finish is applied. Sarsilmaz in particular has been pretty innovative with improvements compared to the CZ 75 or the Witness. Not trying to say anything definitive regarding the higher Rockwell C ratings for Girsan parts that have had cracking issues in the past, but it would certainly be logical that their steels are alloyed for ammo pressure levels that are above American standard pressure 9mm. It's almost a certainty that Girsan is aware of the issues experienced by the Israelis using FN HPs, as well the pressure level of the ammo they test with; particularly if Girsan follows the Turkish trend of test firing with 9mm NATO ammo.
You did the hardness test through the cerakote finish? That will skew your results and give you a lower reading. Any coating will do that. How much depends on what type and thickness of the coating.
What you showed was the 'pawl'..the trigger pull could be improved by relocating the fulcrum of the actual level in the slide...IIRC Cylinder & Slide made that modification awhile back..
Yes...get rid of the mag disconnect..thatvwas a feature that the Frogs wanted when the first ordered the pistol...inany event they passed on the end product and purchased an entirely differed pistol which over time me a SiG design...I have a 30 year old FEG clone this is exactly the same as the FN BHP
Hey there "Almost Stupendous".....that's an almost stupendous question! 🙂 Most of the information you'll find online about this subject mostly describes how the magazine disconnect negatively impacts the trigger's Take-Up-Phase...which is also the phase that most people "play with" when the gun is empty and a guy wants to give his analysis to the "trigger pull". The Magazine Disconnect does not help the integrity of the "Take-Up-Phase". The next stages of the trigger pull are the "Break & Overtravel Phases" - the Magazine Disconnect has no appreciable impact on either of these. The last stage is the Trigger Reset, and the Magazine Disconnect is a 100% HELPER in the "Reset Phase". So, it's common when Magazine Disconnects are removed to then go to a heavier Trigger Return Spring to add back the Influence on the reset that was lost when the mag disconnect went away. To retain or not retain a Magazine Disconnect should be, however, a Tactical Decision based on a different subject than the integrity of the trigger pull. These are two different subjects and should be treated as such. If a Hi-Power user does not want the trigger disabled when the magazine is removed, then retention of the magazine disconnect would be undesirable (I personally practice drills that require spending the one in the chamber in the middle of a mag-change - - - in which case a magazine disconnect is dysfunctional and prevents me from executing the drill...). In this case, a user is much better off with the new BHAdvanced Trigger Sub-Assembly that is not prone to bind up the Trigger Return Spring, allows more control of trigger performance, and adds Magazine Eject Assist to make mag changes faster and more efficient. Reach out to us at BHSpringSolutions@gmail.com if we can be of any additional assistance to you or any of your friends.....it's tough some days for us to answer all the youtube questions. Take care!
From researching 1911 parts hardness, it seems a 1911 frame is about 27-30 hrc and the slide is about 40-43. So it looks like girsan brought the slide into modern 1911 standards? The SA-35 maybe being too soft and using war production standards similar to softer steel ww2 production 1911s, seeming like a lot of hi powers. I wonder if the sa-35 is +p safe if its as soft as normal hi powers. It seems maybe a girson slide on a sa-35 frame would make a hi power very close to modern 1911 steel hrc standards.
If the WWII High Powers are too soft... why are the Canadians still using their WWII high Powers after 80 years of shooting them with nothing but 9mm military ball intended for their submachine guns. That "soft steel" should have resulted in them being scrap metal decades ago?
I sure do hope you are sending some of these repairs/corrections to the manufacturer so they can take the appropriate action. If you are correcting these things, shouldn't the makers of these guns take action (on your fix) so that these guns don't get a bad rap and they can make a lot of money down the line and cut down on the frustration.
How do those hardness numbers compare with the Tisas?
Great video, you folks do really good work on the new BHP clones. I am waiting for you to get your hands on the recently released FN version. I do have one question, in your discussion of hardness you referred to what you 'would expect to see' in a FN Browning. I think it would enhance the presentation if there was a 3rd column on your spread sheet, showing what the base FN specification is for these components. A relative comparison between the two manufacturers is good, but how do they compare the the base FN hardness specification? And once that comparison is done, what do the variations from the base specifications mean, if anything.
Just purchased one of the Girsan MC P35's from my local shop and have been watching various videos about it and the Hi Power's design to get up to speed on it. I have not fired my pistol yet, but have done my typical detailed cleaning and initial inspection of the firearm in preparation for it's first range trip. My pistol does not have the issue with the trigger lever that your particular example shows here.
I'm interested in the Girsan price point. FN redid the basic gun, W/O being asked to do so; I'll use the 17 round magazine though.
The new high power magazines aren’t backwards compatible
The mechanical engineering side of my brain thanks you!
After reading all of the surface hardness figures for SA-35, one has to ask whether or not Springfield makes all of the parts in house.
It is a great thing that there will be so many Hi-Powers coming out. But manufacturers need to get it right first before it goes out for sale to the public.
They don't tisas makes alot of the parts
A website that says all these things are wrong with a gun and of course sells you the upgraded parts. No bias there
Sir you realy tryed hard to justify springfield’s weakness,thats what i understand from this video.
Would be nice to see what you are doing.
Where could I get a set of those wood grips ?
Similar to original hi powers would you be able to completely remove the magazine disconnect to improve trigger pull etc.?
I've heard that you can.
Probably should add that typical performance of 9mm NATO where the 124 gr. FMJ is standard, velocity runs around 1200 FPS, depending on barrel length. There are a good many American brands of 124 gr. JHP +P ammo that do NOT chronograph as fast. Unfortunately, American ammo-makers have decided to make the +P designation a marketing tool rather than a truly accurate performance spec, and rarely (if ever) do they match velocity spec, even when fired from barrels longer than the typical 4" factory Test Barrel. That from a guy with 36 years experience handloading and testing factory ammo along with handloads.
Hi Kevin. I know it's a rather old comment but I hıpe you'd see and reply. What's your opinion on MKEK 9mm ammo which is pretty much all you can get in Turkey not counting a few new/unproven brands? I know they are just about +P in power and 124 Gr FMJ. And the primers are German made Geco brands mostly which happened to be rather harder than others (hence the strong striker/firing pin springs on the Turkish guns). Thanks.
@@almatt8310 9mm is a subject of mass confusion. 9 x19mm is 35,000 PSI per SAAMI while +P is 38,500 PSI, and nothing different from the older existing rating when SAAMI tested in CUP, Copper Units of Pressure. When SAAMI began PSI testing they lowered the pressure of the 9 x 19mm. Supposedly for pistols of questionable quality while the only thing that's really questionable is SAAMI's obfuscation. There really needs to be one single standard for the 9 x 19mm, and that's 9mm NATO. They use a different and more accurate test method than SAAMI, but the pressure still results in PSI. Or BARs and Mega-Pascals. 9mm NATO is an original spec for a 124 gr. (8 gram) FMJ at 1225 FPS, now more like 1200. I've been handloading 9 x 19mm since before +P ever existed, and IMO, it stands for Pink Elephant. Since the US Military adopted the M9 and the 9mm NATO cartridge, anyone who has been making pistols since then, and wants to compete in the military market, is making their pistols for the 9mm NATO cartridge. Some domestic Pistol makers may tell you that +P can be fired sparingly, and that's most likely due to the lighter recoil spring their pistols are shipped with. When in doubt, just observe the distance your cases eject from the pistol. 6' is a good baseline, but up to 10' is not an issue. And for those who shoot warmer loads continually, find the manufacturers rating for the recoil spring, and add heavier springs like the same pistols made for .40 S&W or .357 SIG. Usually, that's about 2# heavier. And for those like me who like 147 gr. JHPs at around 1125 FPS, and not the subsonic garbage, go up 3#. The reality is that American made 9 x 19mm ammo will not come very close to the ammo-makers spec for velocity. I've chronographed plenty of Factory 9mm +P defense loads and whatever they claim from their "4" Test Barrel" ain't gonna happen. Not even from a 4.5" barrel! The reality is that the +P designation for 9 x 19mm ammo is mostly a marketing tool to indicate higher velocity than a "standard pressure" load. You ain't gonna wear out a quality made 9 x 19mm pistol by shooting 9mm +P. If that were the case, they wouldn't make models that are essentially the same pistol in .40 S&W or .357 SIG. The key thing is the recoil spring weight. For steady use of +P go up by 2# on the recoil spring. For 9mm NATO, a 1# increase will do fine if it's needed. I wouldn't worry about it unless your cases are being ejected beyond the 6 - 10' range from the pistol.
@@almatt8310 Sorry, Matt, but all I know about Turkish 9mm NATO is that Sarsilmaz, sold by SAR USA in the US is spec'd with the typical 124 gr./8 gram bullet at 1200 FPS. I don't know anything about MKEK, but think it's likely that the Turk ammo-makers load similarly. I also got into some specifics in the earlier reply.
@@kevinnewberry1116 Winchester M1152 seems pretty hot even compared to NATO spec.
Turkish 9mm ammo is supposed hotter than our +P 9mm.
Turkish ammo or do you just mean 124 gr NATO European?
Just watched part 2 and along with part 1 some really good info. Pointing out the slide fractures that the Israelis experienced with the "hotter" ammo, and possible failure to go to heavier recoil springs would certainly seem a factor. The Girsan MC P35 seems solid overall. Having experience with 2 other Turkish brands that I trust, Canik and particularly Sarsilmaz and their 2000 CZ/Witness clone, these companies mostly test, or maybe always test-fire with 124 gr. 9mm NATO that is definitely higher in pressure (36,500 PSI/CIP) than standard pressure ammo sold in the US (35,000 PSI/SAAMI), slightly different testing methods as well. It's also important to note that Turkey is one of the world's largest producers of Chromium, where some of their Blue/Black finishes go over steel that's nearly stainless before a finish is applied. Sarsilmaz in particular has been pretty innovative with improvements compared to the CZ 75 or the Witness. Not trying to say anything definitive regarding the higher Rockwell C ratings for Girsan parts that have had cracking issues in the past, but it would certainly be logical that their steels are alloyed for ammo pressure levels that are above American standard pressure 9mm. It's almost a certainty that Girsan is aware of the issues experienced by the Israelis using FN HPs, as well the pressure level of the ammo they test with; particularly if Girsan follows the Turkish trend of test firing with 9mm NATO ammo.
You did the hardness test through the cerakote finish? That will skew your results and give you a lower reading. Any coating will do that. How much depends on what type and thickness of the coating.
What you showed was the 'pawl'..the trigger pull could be improved by relocating the fulcrum of the actual level in the slide...IIRC Cylinder & Slide made that modification awhile back..
Yes...get rid of the mag disconnect..thatvwas a feature that the Frogs wanted when the first ordered the pistol...inany event they passed on the end product and purchased an entirely differed pistol which over time me a SiG design...I have a 30 year old FEG clone this is exactly the same as the FN BHP
Where can I find more Girsan grips just like this one with one screw?
Edit, you literally said it. Thank you sir!
Does anyone know what spring kit he used? Might seem obvious but just going off the website and want to make sure I nab the right one.
Have you done a hardness test of the Tisas BR9?
I would like to see a comparison between this high power clone and the tisas bh9 clone
The sound of your voice and the nature of how you explain it reminds me of the dentist .....
Great vid
Excellent presentation 👏. Subbed. 👍😎
Why didn’t you leave disconnect out?
Forgive my ignorance, but does the magazine disconnect help or hurt the trigger pull ?
Hey there "Almost Stupendous".....that's an almost stupendous question! 🙂 Most of the information you'll find online about this subject mostly describes how the magazine disconnect negatively impacts the trigger's Take-Up-Phase...which is also the phase that most people "play with" when the gun is empty and a guy wants to give his analysis to the "trigger pull". The Magazine Disconnect does not help the integrity of the "Take-Up-Phase". The next stages of the trigger pull are the "Break & Overtravel Phases" - the Magazine Disconnect has no appreciable impact on either of these. The last stage is the Trigger Reset, and the Magazine Disconnect is a 100% HELPER in the "Reset Phase". So, it's common when Magazine Disconnects are removed to then go to a heavier Trigger Return Spring to add back the Influence on the reset that was lost when the mag disconnect went away.
To retain or not retain a Magazine Disconnect should be, however, a Tactical Decision based on a different subject than the integrity of the trigger pull. These are two different subjects and should be treated as such.
If a Hi-Power user does not want the trigger disabled when the magazine is removed, then retention of the magazine disconnect would be undesirable (I personally practice drills that require spending the one in the chamber in the middle of a mag-change - - - in which case a magazine disconnect is dysfunctional and prevents me from executing the drill...). In this case, a user is much better off with the new BHAdvanced Trigger Sub-Assembly that is not prone to bind up the Trigger Return Spring, allows more control of trigger performance, and adds Magazine Eject Assist to make mag changes faster and more efficient.
Reach out to us at BHSpringSolutions@gmail.com if we can be of any additional assistance to you or any of your friends.....it's tough some days for us to answer all the youtube questions.
Take care!
From researching 1911 parts hardness, it seems a 1911 frame is about 27-30 hrc and the slide is about 40-43. So it looks like girsan brought the slide into modern 1911 standards? The SA-35 maybe being too soft and using war production standards similar to softer steel ww2 production 1911s, seeming like a lot of hi powers. I wonder if the sa-35 is +p safe if its as soft as normal hi powers. It seems maybe a girson slide on a sa-35 frame would make a hi power very close to modern 1911 steel hrc standards.
If the WWII High Powers are too soft... why are the Canadians still using their WWII high Powers after 80 years of shooting them with nothing but 9mm military ball intended for their submachine guns.
That "soft steel" should have resulted in them being scrap metal decades ago?