It’s not the right time to publish yet, just like with the hull material videos. It’s good info so I put them in here so that people could still find it and use it before it goes public 😎 You found the hidden treasure!
Finally going Dyneema forstay? Good explanation there. Like it when I can say watch you rather than me explaining it. Anyone want to add? Top ten ways to know your standing rig needs replacing: Mast is hanging off in the water. Furler is a wrecking ball. Mast is now topped at spreader.
@@RiggingDoctor very true. Btw, once my stays do fail inspection I'm thinking of replacing them with Dyneema. Any special concerns for attaching dyneema at the top end? And what size would I need for a 25' Dufour 1800?
Oh that’s some good info you two. Just fir the hell of it I’m going to inspect the cabling I just replaced with dyneema to see if I can spot more things on them. Question though. Being that’s your stay and you got your jib on there will it be possible to use dyneema fir that
So why choose a stayed mast? It would seem an unstayed mast might be a better deal. Oh, I understand that if the boat came stayed, changing is not easy, but why stayed in the first place? The only place it seems to matter is racing where an unstayed mast dings the rating adversely. For that matter there is yet another option of lightly stayed where the mast is designed to be unstayed but has "loose" stays to help keep the fore stay taught should the vessel have a fore stay. (The Gazelle is loose stayed for example) Aside from that, why stainless? considering how long stainless wires don't last, why not use galvanised? Work boats do. But you will use synthetic anyway I guess so not an imortant consideration. :)
Unstayed vs stayed masts really depends on what the boat is designed for. In a perfect world, all bots would have junk rigs, but the vast majority don’t. I prefer galvanized over stainless for rigging, but I prefer synthetic for its ease of setting up and fabrication. You can splice braided wire, but it will hurt you where splicing Dyneema is actually fun! A well maintained galvanized rig will outlast a synthetic and grossly outlast a stainless rig, but the maintenance is messy. For that reason, I like synthetic on my own boat.
Yes indeed! When I bought the boat, the inner forestay was brand new so when I converted all the rigging to Dyneema, I kept this one to help reduce the cost. When we were in Spain, the steel stay died and needed to be replaced, making it the last stay to be converted on the boat.
Amazing tutorials as always, PMSL at the pronounciation comments, whats wrong with people, what is your prefered brand of Dyneema for standing rigging?
The manufacturer has to be DSM, the others are not as good of quality. Marlow sells one called DM20 that is amazing but expensive, whereas New England Ropes sells one called STS-HSR which is heat set SK75 or heat set SK78 which is really good and a lot less expensive. The heat set creeps a little bit and is stiff to work with but it gets the job done. DM20 is so soft in your hand and doesn’t creep at all, it really is amazing!! Marlow DM20 or New England Ropes STS-HSR are the two brands and models to use.
Excellent. Trenton-Cyrus #5 in NJ. Spent some time in the line but my cabletow shortened w young kids. Back after college. Two years of highs school and college to go. Then potentially cruising. Have an IP439 in our future! (God willing). So maybe too soon to tell for getting back into the line. Too bad there’s not a cruisers’ lodge!
Traveling as a cruiser to other countries was even more special. All the friends we met along the way were through lodges in other countries. While cruising, you will really be a traveling man.
You would be at the limit for what I am comfortable with. We sailed with the same tune all the time, and the temperature range was from -6°C to 43°C. If it was between 38°C to 15°C I didn’t worry about the rigging. Less than 10°C I would keep the sails lower on the mast (stay reefed instead of full sail). Less than 4°C, I wouldn’t put sails higher than the first spreader. This worked out well for us and our relaxed style of sailing. We also have lateral spreaders which accept being loose much better than aft swept spreaders which MUST maintain a high tension at all times or the mast could invert and break! It depends on many factors, but if your spreaders go straight to the side and don’t sweep backwards, then you will be fine. Just give the rigging a jiggle before you sail and act accordingly to the tension. If it’s tight, go full speed! If it’s loose, take it easy and don’t crash gybe.
@@RiggingDoctor get ready kid's, 🤣🤣🤣. I spent $1000's on computers 4 cameras high-end microphones SD card's & ( I can't tell you it'll blow the surprise) built a studio to boot !!! Oh yeah that means Maddie won't have to read to Herb all the time anymore, 🤣🤣🤣. I should be up & running today !!! I'm so excited 😊 🤗 🤪. I want my stay to fall when I'm done exploring her Cracks ??? 🤣🤣🤣 gotcha 👌
@@RiggingDoctor How U2 been doing ? Anymore 3rd marriages extra honeymoons, 🤣🤣🤣. Herb you got the right Idea take Maddie to every wedding it's like getting married all over again Only on someone else's dime. No teeth to pull pun intended,🤣🤣🤣. Much Love u2 🤩🤩
Great videos I am close to the 10 year mark on my steel standing rigging on a gaff cutter. LWL is 23.5 feet, and the length of spars is 32 feet. The current wire is 6mm. What yound you recommend in dynmea? I was going to start with my runners. Thanks in advance.
I look at the equivalence to make sure I’m not going weaker than what is there, but then I do a bunch of math to see what size it really needs to be. I use the RM30 to figure out the force exerted on the rig and then a few other formulas to figure out the static load on each stay and therefore determine the appropriate line size based on strength. Most of the time, it comes out to be near the size of the current steel but I have had a few cases where the boats original steel rigging was undersized and swapping Dyneema size for size would have led to some problems with creep.
Thanks Herb, was soon as my knee gets better I'll do a complete inspection of my stays. Also wouldn't it be a good idea if when replacing or new stays to put some kind of sealer at those spots where the cable and fittings.
Great video. Lots of sailors assume that stainless steel == good forever, which is of course untrue as you point out. I remember you discussing stainless rigging age & insurance issues in a previous video, and I think you said that your boat is uninsured by choice. I would love to hear about insurance implications of a dyneema rig, insurance decisions in general, and your thoughts about when to get/skip boat insurance. I think boat insurance is in general a very murky topic for novice sailors. Thanks again for the great vids! Stay safe. 😀
That would be a great topic for a video! We have liability insurance only on our boats. Insurance doesn’t shy away from synthetic rigging as long as it’s under 10 years old for the most part.
my boat insurance company didnt seem to care when I updated my policy to state that I had synthetic rigging. i dont think it made any difference in the premium cost either. I am forced to have some policy like $500,000 in liability insurance because my marina demands that for every slip owner. the marina doesnt care (but they should) what kind of rigging anyone has either, the only thing they care about, is if you have 2 fire extinguishers (which are nearly useless for any sailboat fire) and flares (also useless in an emergency) and life jackets etc.
Great video Herbert,...I'm to lazy to look up your proper name lol. I was told as a young man that if you see rust on stainless the lines are alll bad.
@@RiggingDoctor Cool I heard your green haired girl call you Herby so I just thought it was a lover's name is something. Thx'z on all the information you've been a big help.
I just bought a 1985 Nauticat 44 boat. It's a ketch. The rigging needs to be redone. I'm considering Dyneema (because of your videos...). Is there an equivalent Dyneems vs stainless cable size equivalency? My masts have these slot things that the cables slide down into . How do I connect Dyneema to them???
Great stuff! A linguistic aside: In former incarnations re US Navy propulsion/industrial construction/electrical power generation/petrochemical industries trades, we were taught to pronounce 'Swage/swaging' *sWAYj* and *sWAY-jing* - I'd not heard it pronounced 'swahdj/swahdjing' until this evening. But then I'm old enough to have learned to speak the word "often" with the "t" silent 🤷🏻♂
Agreed 🇬🇧SWayjed.... a Swatch is a small sample of fabric or paint ...or a plastic cheap designer quartz wrist watch brand over here😉😂 but the contents 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
Thank you for the correction! This is part of a 4 part series so be prepared for many more incorrect swaging until newer videos on the topic are filmed.
@@RiggingDoctor Lol...no problem im a Scientist and ex teacher but slightly Dyslexic. English is a mixed up language with more exceptions than rules.. there are certain words i read but my brain does an automatic close procedure on and miss read ..once I've done it though it can lead to repeats ...till i forget / go back and read whats actually there.🤦♂️🤷🏻♂️😂 Long numbers dont even get me started on the problems scanning those has caused. My father used to come out with a few Spoonerisms.
Try this company: www.docanpower.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=454&tracking=06ORmUMyyrYyEpQ2VkP7mUHWKgx9B9SeQB6gb57tAV7ag91SsfJ5D2FxQRDgTqmm I know a guy who built his battery with their cells and it’s been excellent. Our next battery will be with these cells because it’s so much easier to build and the price has come down to the point where it’s now comparable.
@@RiggingDoctor For Cell packs, those prices aren't bad. Much better than what I've seen. I guess I was just looking forward to the construction. Thanks
@@RiggingDoctor Good, I'll watch and put them in my new "rigging" playlist (I have to separate out my huge sailing technology playlist because its all mixed up now and I've needed to separate out the sailing topics for a while )
Great video Herb, I didn't know something that small could be such an issue for rigging. What's the cost of replace the standing rigging and what a person look for when inspecting the chain plates?
YOU HAVE A BIG PROBLEM!!! NEVER, NEVER, NEVER PUT COPPER AND STEEL TOGETHER (YOUR BRASS SAIL CLIPS). YOU WILL GET COPPER PITTING CORROSION ON THE STEEL.
Copper and steel are an issue but bronze and steel pair well together. Think of your prop shaft (stainless steel) with the prop (bronze) bolted to it. In a relatively dry environment like a stay, there is no need for electrolysis collars, as the bronze hanks will grind away faster than they could corrode. In this setup, there is no copper, everything is bronze or stainless steel.
![DYNEEMA [Part 2]: Measuring Your Rigging | Sailing Wisdom](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/8mG2MDXQmUU/mqdefault.jpg)
![DYNEEMA [Part 2]: Measuring Your Rigging | Sailing Wisdom](/img/tr.png)
Why is this little Dyneema series unlisted? I love it!
Glad I was looking through the "How to Section" playlist!
It’s not the right time to publish yet, just like with the hull material videos. It’s good info so I put them in here so that people could still find it and use it before it goes public 😎
You found the hidden treasure!
Good stuff, Herby! Thanks again. 👍👍👍
Those stainless steel swages and compression fittings look so sexy.
Weird, I saw a new video from you guys that I swear I had already watched. Turns out in July of last year, lol. Ah well, watched it again. Great info!
Thanks for watching it twice!
Finally going Dyneema forstay? Good explanation there. Like it when I can say watch you rather than me explaining it.
Anyone want to add?
Top ten ways to know your standing rig needs replacing:
Mast is hanging off in the water.
Furler is a wrecking ball.
Mast is now topped at spreader.
Thanks Herby, I need that!
There’s more of these on their way!
Thanks, Another worry for my next inspection round. But at least I now know what to look out for.
Knowledge is power!
@@RiggingDoctor very true.
Btw, once my stays do fail inspection I'm thinking of replacing them with Dyneema.
Any special concerns for attaching dyneema at the top end?
And what size would I need for a 25' Dufour 1800?
Oh that’s some good info you two. Just fir the hell of it I’m going to inspect the cabling I just replaced with dyneema to see if I can spot more things on them. Question though. Being that’s your stay and you got your jib on there will it be possible to use dyneema fir that
We do but the stay needs a chafe sleeve to protect it from chafe caused by the hanks.
@@RiggingDoctor thanks
Thanks for sharing
Always Helps #Sabzeee#
Great post my friends. 🌞🌴⛵
So, what is more important… bilge pump’s or forestey ?
You can always use a bucket to keep afloat but you can’t lean against the mast to keep the sails flying.
Great information thanks.
You are welcome
So why choose a stayed mast? It would seem an unstayed mast might be a better deal. Oh, I understand that if the boat came stayed, changing is not easy, but why stayed in the first place? The only place it seems to matter is racing where an unstayed mast dings the rating adversely. For that matter there is yet another option of lightly stayed where the mast is designed to be unstayed but has "loose" stays to help keep the fore stay taught should the vessel have a fore stay. (The Gazelle is loose stayed for example)
Aside from that, why stainless? considering how long stainless wires don't last, why not use galvanised? Work boats do. But you will use synthetic anyway I guess so not an imortant consideration. :)
Unstayed vs stayed masts really depends on what the boat is designed for. In a perfect world, all bots would have junk rigs, but the vast majority don’t.
I prefer galvanized over stainless for rigging, but I prefer synthetic for its ease of setting up and fabrication. You can splice braided wire, but it will hurt you where splicing Dyneema is actually fun!
A well maintained galvanized rig will outlast a synthetic and grossly outlast a stainless rig, but the maintenance is messy. For that reason, I like synthetic on my own boat.
This is very helpful, thank you for this! Did you replace this stay with dyneema?
Yes indeed! When I bought the boat, the inner forestay was brand new so when I converted all the rigging to Dyneema, I kept this one to help reduce the cost. When we were in Spain, the steel stay died and needed to be replaced, making it the last stay to be converted on the boat.
Great video Herby and Maddie. Always enjoy the learning.
Amazing tutorials as always, PMSL at the pronounciation comments, whats wrong with people, what is your prefered brand of Dyneema for standing rigging?
The manufacturer has to be DSM, the others are not as good of quality.
Marlow sells one called DM20 that is amazing but expensive, whereas New England Ropes sells one called STS-HSR which is heat set SK75 or heat set SK78 which is really good and a lot less expensive.
The heat set creeps a little bit and is stiff to work with but it gets the job done. DM20 is so soft in your hand and doesn’t creep at all, it really is amazing!!
Marlow DM20 or New England Ropes STS-HSR are the two brands and models to use.
@@RiggingDoctor Thank you so much
Herb that stay needs replacing!
👍
would you replace the compression fittings (StaLocks) same time you replace the wire? Like every 10 years?
If they are still in good shape, you can reuse them. Those fittings are the best way to go when building steel rigging
You guys are in Almerimar :)) My boat is also there. Coming down in only two weeks to start the sailing lifestyle! :D
Oh I wish we were actually still there! This video was made back in 2020. We’ve got a lot of these how-to videos in a back log
great video. thank you.
Oh...so this is why they call you" Rigging Doctor". (^L^) Good stuff. I learned a lot.
Glad it was useful for you
This is super helpful. Thank you.
Hi Herb. ‘Surprised I haven’t noticed this before. Saw your ring. Are you a “traveling man?“ - John .:
I am! I’m from Palestine 189 in Maryland. I’m in my first year of traveling to the East.
Excellent. Trenton-Cyrus #5 in NJ. Spent some time in the line but my cabletow shortened w young kids. Back after college. Two years of highs school and college to go. Then potentially cruising. Have an IP439 in our future! (God willing). So maybe too soon to tell for getting back into the line. Too bad there’s not a cruisers’ lodge!
Traveling as a cruiser to other countries was even more special. All the friends we met along the way were through lodges in other countries.
While cruising, you will really be a traveling man.
I live in Norway, temperature can change 10degrees in 24 hours, can I use dyneema? Or I will need to retention it every time I go sailing?
You would be at the limit for what I am comfortable with. We sailed with the same tune all the time, and the temperature range was from -6°C to 43°C. If it was between 38°C to 15°C I didn’t worry about the rigging. Less than 10°C I would keep the sails lower on the mast (stay reefed instead of full sail). Less than 4°C, I wouldn’t put sails higher than the first spreader.
This worked out well for us and our relaxed style of sailing. We also have lateral spreaders which accept being loose much better than aft swept spreaders which MUST maintain a high tension at all times or the mast could invert and break!
It depends on many factors, but if your spreaders go straight to the side and don’t sweep backwards, then you will be fine. Just give the rigging a jiggle before you sail and act accordingly to the tension. If it’s tight, go full speed! If it’s loose, take it easy and don’t crash gybe.
@@RiggingDoctor perfect answer. Thanks
very rich! never seen something so practical on the web. It answers questions i've been carying for a few years : thank you very much!
Glad to help!!
@@RiggingDoctor get ready kid's, 🤣🤣🤣. I spent $1000's on computers 4 cameras high-end microphones SD card's & ( I can't tell you it'll blow the surprise) built a studio to boot !!! Oh yeah that means Maddie won't have to read to Herb all the time anymore, 🤣🤣🤣. I should be up & running today !!! I'm so excited 😊 🤗 🤪. I want my stay to fall when I'm done exploring her Cracks ??? 🤣🤣🤣 gotcha 👌
Congrats on the setup :)
@@RiggingDoctor How U2 been doing ? Anymore 3rd marriages extra honeymoons, 🤣🤣🤣. Herb you got the right Idea take Maddie to every wedding it's like getting married all over again Only on someone else's dime. No teeth to pull pun intended,🤣🤣🤣. Much Love u2 🤩🤩
Great videos
I am close to the 10 year mark on my steel standing rigging on a gaff cutter.
LWL is 23.5 feet, and the length of spars is 32 feet.
The current wire is 6mm.
What yound you recommend in dynmea?
I was going to start with my runners.
Thanks in advance.
Dyneema will be great for you. Gaff rigs have really low tension at rest so they are easy to setup and adjust with Dyneema. You will love the stuff!
Do I match the wire size with dynmea size ?
Or
Air on the side of caution and go a size up ?
I look at the equivalence to make sure I’m not going weaker than what is there, but then I do a bunch of math to see what size it really needs to be.
I use the RM30 to figure out the force exerted on the rig and then a few other formulas to figure out the static load on each stay and therefore determine the appropriate line size based on strength.
Most of the time, it comes out to be near the size of the current steel but I have had a few cases where the boats original steel rigging was undersized and swapping Dyneema size for size would have led to some problems with creep.
Thanks Herb, was soon as my knee gets better I'll do a complete inspection of my stays. Also wouldn't it be a good idea if when replacing or new stays to put some kind of sealer at those spots where the cable and fittings.
On steel, yes. It keeps out the water which makes it last a bit longer
Great video. Lots of sailors assume that stainless steel == good forever, which is of course untrue as you point out. I remember you discussing stainless rigging age & insurance issues in a previous video, and I think you said that your boat is uninsured by choice. I would love to hear about insurance implications of a dyneema rig, insurance decisions in general, and your thoughts about when to get/skip boat insurance. I think boat insurance is in general a very murky topic for novice sailors.
Thanks again for the great vids! Stay safe. 😀
That would be a great topic for a video!
We have liability insurance only on our boats.
Insurance doesn’t shy away from synthetic rigging as long as it’s under 10 years old for the most part.
my boat insurance company didnt seem to care when I updated my policy to state that I had synthetic rigging. i dont think it made any difference in the premium cost either. I am forced to have some policy like $500,000 in liability insurance because my marina demands that for every slip owner. the marina doesnt care (but they should) what kind of rigging anyone has either, the only thing they care about, is if you have 2 fire extinguishers (which are nearly useless for any sailboat fire) and flares (also useless in an emergency) and life jackets etc.
Of course, I like! 👍
My dictionary says that swage is pronounced with a long a. Sorry for being pedantic.
Thanks for the correction! I’ve heard it both ways and assumed it was accent more so than correct/incorrect speaking.
Just assuming it is one more East-West coast quirk.
You are pronouncing swage incorrectly. It is pronounced like age. Google pronouncing swage.
Yes, thank you. Many have corrected this already
@@RiggingDoctor You're welcome. I have trouble with words all the time. I love to learn when I'm mistaken. 😁
Very much! That’s how we all learn and grow as people :)
Great video Herbert,...I'm to lazy to look up your proper name lol.
I was told as a young man that if you see rust on stainless the lines are alll bad.
Herbert is my actual name :) everyone just calls me Herby.
And yes, when stainless starts to rust, it’s nearing its end.
@@RiggingDoctor Cool I heard your green haired girl call you Herby so I just thought it was a lover's name is something.
Thx'z on all the information you've been a big help.
"great video very helpful
Thank you!
Thanks guys
I just bought a 1985 Nauticat 44 boat. It's a ketch. The rigging needs to be redone. I'm considering Dyneema (because of your videos...). Is there an equivalent Dyneems vs stainless cable size equivalency? My masts have these slot things that the cables slide down into . How do I connect Dyneema to them???
Please send me an email with your questions at riggingdr@gmail.com 😊thanks
Great stuff! A linguistic aside: In former incarnations re US Navy propulsion/industrial construction/electrical power generation/petrochemical industries trades, we were taught to pronounce 'Swage/swaging' *sWAYj* and *sWAY-jing* - I'd not heard it pronounced 'swahdj/swahdjing' until this evening. But then I'm old enough to have learned to speak the word "often" with the "t" silent 🤷🏻♂
Agreed 🇬🇧SWayjed.... a Swatch is a small sample of fabric or paint ...or a plastic cheap designer quartz wrist watch brand over here😉😂 but the contents 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
Thank you for the correction! This is part of a 4 part series so be prepared for many more incorrect swaging until newer videos on the topic are filmed.
@@RiggingDoctor I shall brace myself 😂
Yes, beat me to it: th-cam.com/video/_z6IWbbhLx0/w-d-xo.html
@@RiggingDoctor
Lol...no problem im a Scientist and ex teacher but slightly Dyslexic. English is a
mixed up language with more exceptions than rules.. there are certain words i read but my brain does an automatic close procedure on and miss read ..once I've done it though it can lead to repeats ...till i forget / go back and read whats actually there.🤦♂️🤷🏻♂️😂 Long numbers dont even get me started on the problems scanning those has caused. My father used to come out with a few Spoonerisms.
👍!!!
I couldn't get any cells, they are out now. Darn. Any ideas ?
Try this company: www.docanpower.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=454&tracking=06ORmUMyyrYyEpQ2VkP7mUHWKgx9B9SeQB6gb57tAV7ag91SsfJ5D2FxQRDgTqmm
I know a guy who built his battery with their cells and it’s been excellent. Our next battery will be with these cells because it’s so much easier to build and the price has come down to the point where it’s now comparable.
@@RiggingDoctor For Cell packs, those prices aren't bad. Much better than what I've seen. I guess I was just looking forward to the construction. Thanks
Thanks!
Glad it was useful for you!
This was extremely useful. Thank you. Do you have a series on re-rigging with Dyneema? Is that the plan here?
This is part one of a series of 4 videos :)
@@RiggingDoctor right on! looking forward to them.
Got me thinking. Gotta go inspect my rigging again. Thanks. Thought the Greece trip was a fabulous idea.
Awesome! More Greece to come :)
Humm, revisiting this ?
We have a huge back log of these videos. Decided now was the time to release them since our Greece videos aren’t doing as well as we had hoped
@@RiggingDoctor Good, I'll watch and put them in my new "rigging" playlist (I have to separate out my huge sailing technology playlist because its all mixed up now and I've needed to separate out the sailing topics for a while )
I would dearly love a follow up to this to cover when you should know that your dyneema standing rigging needs to be replaced
That is an excellent idea for a follow up episode!
Can I assume that Herb is a traveling man?
Yes :)
I’m from Palestine #189 in Catonsville, MD
@@RiggingDoctor Texas #8 in San Antonio TX, Brownwood KT Commandry in Boerne , TX
nice explanation Herby!
Thanks :)
Thanks :)
Thanks :)
Great video Herb, I didn't know something that small could be such an issue for rigging. What's the cost of replace the standing rigging and what a person look for when inspecting the chain plates?
I know the cost of changing the standing rigging lies in the range of $10k-$15k. That is based on what I've heard from others
@@sailingtranquility wow thats a lot. Thanks for your input
It depends on the size of the boat, but that is a safe estimate for the average cruising boat
@@RiggingDoctor Would dymeema be cheaper?❓
YOU HAVE A BIG PROBLEM!!! NEVER, NEVER, NEVER PUT COPPER AND STEEL TOGETHER (YOUR BRASS SAIL CLIPS). YOU WILL GET COPPER PITTING CORROSION ON THE STEEL.
Copper and steel are an issue but bronze and steel pair well together. Think of your prop shaft (stainless steel) with the prop (bronze) bolted to it. In a relatively dry environment like a stay, there is no need for electrolysis collars, as the bronze hanks will grind away faster than they could corrode.
In this setup, there is no copper, everything is bronze or stainless steel.
In the aircraft industry the term "swaged" has a long "A" sound. The dictionary seems to agree with that.
Yes, I now know the correct way to pronounce sWAYge fittings