Does DYNEEMA Rigging Work?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
- #syntheticrigging #synthetic #dyneema
FINALLY we have made a video about our synthetic rigging!! This is one of the things that sets us apart from other sailors and we love the system that Herby has set up. Learn all about how to tension it and travel up the mast for a full view of how it works as long as both pros and cons that come with the decision.
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This is the most informative video I have watched in years. Even the comments have been helpful. GoodOnYa. Thanks.
Thank you for your well presented video. I had never heard of Dyneema before today when someone asked about it on Cruisers Forum. I am amazed. Love the concept. 15x stronger than steel, 1/5 the weight. 30 years as a rigger and charter captain but retired since 2000, so totally out of the loop on new innovations.
But still sailing...:)
I have an old steel ketch that still has lignum vitae deadeyes and as I re-rig, I can see your system being very helpful. I have struggled with whether to go with turnbuckles or not, but you have made me re-assess. It seems that the blend of traditional and modern materials may be appropriate. Thank you!
Very well done video. I think this synthetic rigging thing is going to blow up (as it should) for offshore sailors. Sailing and seaman/womanship is at its core about self sufficiency and I can tell you in the western Caribbean we might as well be on Mars when it comes to supplies. A few (hundred) feet of Dyneema has quickly jumped to the top of the 'oh shit' list. Sub'd and look forward to more videos!
I think the other great thing about synthetic rigging is it’s easy to store on your boat and you can also use it as haulage line in an emergency. What’s not to like ?
You got my Thumbs Up just because It will help your site. Way too much technical jargon for this old to comprehend!
Very interesting. A little back to the future, replacing natural fibers with space-age synthetic.
You are at the 8 year mark. How's the rigging holding up? I've just bought some Dyneema to use on a small boat thanks to seeing some of your videos on splicing it.
It’s still going strong :)
very well done.
That is amazing. I am totally going to use Synthetic the next i rig my boat. Thank you for sharing :)
Terribly incomplete and confusing information, What material are the lashing???
There are NO deadeyes shown, only thimbles. Do you know the difference?
Again, you don't specify what material is used for the "fairlead" (more probably a pennant, The fairlead would be what you fasten to the end of that pennant or the thimble itself if you only run a line thru it. It certainly is NOT a turning 'block'.).
New subscriber here 👍awesome video! I've got some catching up to do. 🎥
👍
I’d like to replace our SS rigging with dyneema. A bit of a choice to eliminate roller furling altogether. Huge expense of multiple headsails. Too bad there isn’t a hardened, teflon (?) sleeve that will absolutely eliminate chafe and permit maintaining roller furler.
Can you use a rigging tension gauge like the loos? In a hi performance trimaran I raced on 20 years ago we had Kevlar/technora stays with shrink tape/tube uv protection , not needed with dyneema/spectra but it could be useful for chafe?
The dyneema splices don’t appear to hold very tight on the SS thimbles. Is their anyway to improve that . I have used a adjustable technora back stay for years but for quick adjustability for different wind condition ( I race) means I would want to use turnbuckles I think. Definitively a flexible system for maintenance in far flung places!
Cheers warren
You certainly could slip a shrink tube over the stay to help with chafe protection.
The eye splices are a little loose to facilitate thimble replacement and because the thimble is not present when the splice is made, making it hard to make it snug enough without making the eye too snug. To tighten it up, you can tie a seizing knot at the throat.
Can there be any problems with synthetic rigging old noodley racing mast?
Herbie you rock! I love this so much we use class 2 advised by you! Nice job doctor thank you thank you ❤u! Fair wind a day beautiful seas mate!
whats the total-final diference in price comparing ss and dyneema standing rigging?
thanks. Felipe
Hi Herby
Many thanks for this simple and instructive video. I’m on the van to purchase an Amel Maramu 48 which need new rigging and
after seeing your’s and Zingaro’s video, synthetic rigging is what I’ll choose. One question I have are related to the tension which must be achieved: did you use any measuring tool and which one?
Wish you both fair winds and safe sailing
I set the tension “by feel”. Basically you want the shrouds tight enough that the leeward stays go slack but not loose. If they go loose, you need to tighten them. If they stay tight, you need to loosen them.
There is one important toppic missing on that video.... Price compared to steel rigging
Awesome video! Thank you for the information. I have always been nervous about SS rigging and this is definitely an option to consider.
Cool idea but ....... NEVER run rope under tension directly over each other, (eg 12:22 onwards). It WILL damage the fibers. That's why rock climbers and rope rescuers use carabiners (or pulleys if you really care about your rope). Watching that bit left me shuddering...arghhhh
do rockclimbers use dyneema though?
As a climber I can confirm that they do. It is generally used in the form of slings or fixed lines. Climbing rope itself is designed to be stretchy (up to 10%)
Climbing rope is stretchy to 40% !! This is how it dissipates the energy (as heat). As far as dyneema/spectra cord, yes it is used in climbing. However a 3 or 4 wrap overhand (incorrectly called a fisherman’s in climbing community) is required to lock the ends together as it is a slippery cord. The biggest issues are bend radius and heat from what I gather. Would like to hear more about the science and engineering tests on dyneema as I plan on using it in the future. UV damage is my biggest concern. Dyneema can not be directly exposed to UV as it degrades rapidly apparently. Comments ?
Agreed about rope on rope. The rule for climbing is no 2 same materials touch. A carabiner would be a simple solution. The reason no 2 metals on each other is because ropes can run through them after use and metal on metal leaves a rough edge (which is exactly what a saw is !).
Yeah I was thinking the same thing but figured the rub zone was probably not gonna land in the same spot all the time and with dyneema it might not be such a big deal. Anyways, you’d know soon enough if it can’t hack it because it will show. I was picturing myself just using a carabiner and little climbing pulley for that part though.
I see nothing but people gushing over trendy dyneema standing rigging, but there are drawbacks. Has terrible abrasion resistance (compared to steel), sub-par UV resistance (compared to steel), needs to be constantly re-tensioned, so way higher maintenance vs. steel. You have to use your winches to tension a dyneema rig? That makes turnbuckles look genius. The only advantages are light weight and the ability to DIY, which is only really an advantage over rod, not wire because you can DIY wire with mechanical swage fittings. A lot of the same applies to dyneema lifelines. Do you really want to bet your life on something with poorer abrasion resistance than a genoa sheet? Sure, when your boat is finished it'll look super DIY and you can show off what a master craftsmen you are on the dock, but is it really worth it? There's a reason you don't see much dyneema standing rigging and lifelines in racing (actually banned by some regulations). Yeah, many race boats are using synthetic carbon fiber rigging, but that's not the same thing at all. Dyneema is great for running rigging on all boats-an amazing material for that purpose- but probably not a good idea as standing rigging for boats over day-sailor or dinghy size. Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should be done. I'm glad I went with steel when I replaced my lifelines and standing rigging recently.
There is nothing wrong with steel, but I’m afraid you are misinformed about Dyneema. I haven’t needed to adjust my standing rigging in years (2017 was the last time I tuned it). I have sailed full time across the Atlantic and into the Mediterranean on this same tune for over three years now. We are about to sail back across the Atlantic and I’m not going to be tuning it before we go because it doesn’t need it.
As for chafe resistance, there are different types of Dyneema and the type you should use for standing Rigging has very good chafe resistance, actually on par with steel cable. I put chafe sleeves on the headstay because I wanted the added protection from the soft hanks but I have seen others who use uncovered Dyneema with bronze hanks chafing away on the stay for years and they have yet to be chafed to the point of needing replacement.
As for UV, Dyneema has no loss of strength after long term exposure to UV light. The color will fade but the strength remains.
I personally think lifelines are an ideal application for Dyneema because it is soft, light, and much stronger than the equivalent size of steel wire. This means that it’s safer as it’s less likely to break if you need it to catch you. The biggest reason why Dyneema is superior to steel in lifelines is because there are never “meat hooks” in Dyneema, but when a wire breaks, the deep cut that can result when flesh touches it is very dangerous at sea!
As for the application of standing rigging, I feel they are equal. Neither is superior because both are engineered for the same task and both need to be inspected regularly. Steel will eventually corrode and crack in under ten years while Dyneema will last much longer than that, but eventually meet its end once the material reaches the final phase in its material life (about 15 years minimum, but it can go longer).
Yes, it looks cool, but it has many more qualities than that. Our Synthetic Standing Rigging is now 6 years old and going strong while our marina neighbor has a cracked swage from crevice corrosion at 3 years of age. We are leaving on our transatlantic while he is waiting to have his stay replaced.
@@RiggingDoctor same as steel with regard to chafe resistance? Are you serious? A reasonably sharp knife could bring down an entire dyneema rig in less than a minute. Take said knife to steel cable or rods and...good luck. Of course the knife scenario probably would never happen, but do accidents happen on boats? To sharp/abrasive objects ever accidentally rub, make contact with shrouds and stays? The fact is dyneema isn't even close to steel in chafe and abrasion resistance. To say they're equal isn't true. Just flat out false. Numerous racing associations banned dyneema lifelines for lack of chafe resistance vs steel, so I'm not going out on a limb. I'm not arguing that dyneema can't function as standing rigging, or that it's not a brilliant material, I'm just pointing out that there are drawbacks. Maybe it isn't a good idea for everyone to have something that if it falls can kill you (your rig) held up by something with very weak abrasion resistance compared to the alternative. Everything on boats has pros and cons.... plenty of cons with steel rigging. Just thought I'd point out some of dyneema's, which are not really getting enough representation on here.
Charles Patterson FYI, a knife is not chafe. A knife on Dyneema and a knife on steel is a different story from actual chafe in your scenario of a file on Dyneema and a file on steel. All you need to do is file enough to break a single wire and 1x19 is out of commission! Dyneema is very easy to inspect and chafe is easy to grade and determine when it needs to be replaced.
Oil rigs are anchored with Dyneema rodes and cargo ships are moored with Dyneema lines because of the strength and inspectability of the material. The don’t use chain or steel cables because Dyneema works reliably.
It’s a shame that racing associations have banned Dyneema lifelines, thankfully we are not racing and can use things that work instead of things that are allowed.
That knife argument often comes up. Steel rigging can be completely cut down in a few seconds using a portable grinder.
Chaffe can be eliminated by adding a cover (polythene or dyneema) and rope Service at the shrouds. I have a wooden service tool from Germany.
This is the second video i have seen about synthetic rope the other went into detail about splicing using fids which was extremely interesting to watch, i found your video very useful and could see that if in a remote location your technique could get you out a hole heep of trouble this is the video i was on about th-cam.com/video/o4J4hJoJFHg/w-d-xo.html
You need to write a book on your technical knowledge with step by step and pictures.This would help fund your fun.
WHAT DO YOU USE TO MEASURE THE TENSION ON EACH LINE ? SO ALL SETS ARE OF EQUAL TENSION , BALANCED ?
Thank you. Wasn’t sure what to do with the head stay on my C22
8 years and going??😊
Still going!
Thanks guys!!! I not only learned a lot about synthetic rigging but rigging in general! PEACE OUT! Ü
hey...so if you just have 1 sheet winch...you just need to anchor other end? 🤔👍🏴☠️⛵ also would this work on a wooden mast? 🤔 i already replaced the running back stays with dyneema to lessen the mainsail chaffing..👍
The second winch is just an anchor. You could use a cleat to get the job done.
A wooden mast should work great as it expands and contracts in a way similar to Dyneema so the temperature changes shouldn’t have such a drastic effect on tension.
Uhmpe standing rigging? Sounds like a joke.
Anyone heard anything about a uhmpe characteristic called creeping?
Very much, the trick is to calculate the correct size to mitigate creep. It has worked flawlessly for the past 6 years and 17,000nm ⛵️
Herby, how'd you get to be so smart? Can't wait for the next painting video Maddie!
Okay so it was 3 years ago at the making of this video, 6 years have passed, how do you think the dynema had lasted? Thanks for making this video.. 😊🤙
It’s been great! Still sailing on the same rigging with minimal signs of wear
Just subscribed after learning a great deal from you over the years. Curious to know if there is any difference in the sound a dyneema rig makes? I've noticed in other videos something of an aeolian harp effect. Have you experienced anything like this?
I have only had this happen when I didn’t have a sail bent onto the headstay. It was a rather strange sound but as soon as I had the sail on it, that seemed to be enough dampening to hush the whole rig.
When you spliced your stays, did you need to pre-tension the stays to set the splice? I'm reading where I might need to apply 2k lbs or more to the stay to 'set the splice' before using. What's your experience with this? Also, any tips on getting around t-ball fittings?
This is a post about the cost of conversion but it was on a bot with T-balls so it goes over all the added pets needed to make it work on the mast side of the stay.
As for setting the splice, you don’t have to but it will save A LOT of time. If you don’t, you will be taking creep out of the line for about a month. If you set the splice, it becomes just a few weeks and very minor during that time.
To set splices, I attach the stay to a tree and the other end to an old F150, then I drive away from the tree slowly until the stay goes tight and the truck stops. I measure on the ground where the tires meet the ground and do this until the tires stop advancing. Then I leave the truck in neutral on a hill held up by the stay and tree. I leave it like this overnight and come the next day it’s pretty much done creeping.
SS turnbuckle, a few turns instead of 10+minutes of re-lashing
Turnbuckles are great but they were out of our budget and beyond the budget of a lot of people who want to go cruising now. This is a system that lets anyone build their own rigging and go cruising for a fraction of the cost.
Turnbuckles for our application we’re $100 each and we needed 12 of them. Using deadeyes saved us $1,200 and has supported our rigging for 7 years and two voyages across the Atlantic.
If you can afford turnbuckles, go for it, but if you need to save a buck, you can make a deadeye for $24 😉
There's a company making motorcycle jeans out of Dyneema.
Those jeans must be super pants!
Aww... I got all excited at the mention of 'Deadeyes' only to be devastated by the lack of lignum vitae discs, much beloved by salty, old sea dogs. 😬
I really wanted to use them but I needed 7 holes for the cap shrouds and that would be a very large piece of wood! The Dyneema deadeyes only cost $24 to make, far less than it would have cost to buy the blocks of wood (but it would have been so salty looking)!
@@RiggingDoctor Arr... Deadeyes, ratlines and belaying pins, don't leave port wi'out 'em m'dear. Oops, it's not September 19th yet. 😜
Super clear explenation and instructions. I am about to rig my own boat. Could not choose between steel and dyneema until now. You broke it down beautifully. Thank you from the Netherlands!
Glad to help you in your decision process :)
Most interesting... Your American flag needs to be retired.
Very much. As soon as we make it back, we are buying a new one and a few spare flags.
Enjoyed this very much. thanks
What’s not clear is what happens to the lashing tails. Are they tied in or is it just the frapping that locks them before you release the tension.
The frapping knot holds everything in place and the tails then become ornamental. They are tied over the frapping knot to protect and conceal it, but that knot knot is strictly ornamental.
There are norseman terminals that can also be rigged in the field with ss wire. Cheers from Northern California.
Sta-lok as well. For steel rigging, compression fittings, like Norseman and Sta-lok are the best. They give you the strength of steel but don’t have any of the stress hardening of swage fittings.
Not to be too negative, but your synthetic rigging is dumping microplastics into the ocean (and your sails too). You mentioned being unhappy about plastic propeller blades in another video, but as a sailor I think it's important to actively offset our negative impact on the ocean, not just reduce it by a few fractions of a percent here and there through symbolic selective abstinence. Things like cleaning up litter and promoting better standards for waste disposal and energy sources (voluntary and legally, at sea and on land).
I think I'm going to go for synthetic rigging too. And easily replaceable plastic prop on a synthetic shaft would be a dream (no paint and no electrolysis... Probably less pollution than using metal) I'll be sure to clean up as much plastic as the things weighed new to offset it; no guilt.
Sounds like a plan! Everything is a compromise and I really do like kiwi props!!
The whole boat is made out of plastic, it’s a big contradiction :(
I have been looking at a bronze shaft to go on my bronze prop to negate galvanic corrosion between the prop and shaft. Didn’t know about synthetic shafts!
@@RiggingDoctor here is a link to a carbon fiber drive shaft for a mustang car. I dunno where to get one for a boat. Of course if you damage a carbon fiber shaft you're more likely to start taking on water than with a steel one, but they make whole boats out of carbon fiber so this doesn't seem to be an insurmountable problem.
www.americanmuscle.com/the-driveshaft-shop-mustang-325-in-carbon-fiber-one-piece-driveshaft-fdsh50-c.html
Great video. I was just sailing in 40 kt winds. the wind was so hard that the lee side spreader actually popped out of its housing and was lost. We didn't know this until we came about and nearly broke the mast. I have a 30 ft C & C. When we came about we noticed that the top of the mast was bent nearly 4 feet off center at the top. We quickly did a straight downwind sail to take the pressure off the mast, dropped the sails and connected the main sheet halyard to the port side rail to stabilize the mast. After we assessed the problem we realized that the set setscrew that held the port spreader failed, and the spreader got yanked out of its housing. Design not so good. A learning experience. Thanks again. Steve.
This is where dyneema is better IMO. It has less points of failure. As a climber, I use lots of different cordage and one thing we ALWAYS do is plan in redundancy. Now since dyneema is relatively cheap it might be possible to make a shroud that has 2 parallel dyneema cords that are tensioned appropriately. If one gets severed the other can take the load. This might be an overkill though as dyneema is stranded. But I’d love to hear thoughts on this. Wind will likely whistle through the 2 strands though !! My thinking is that you might be able to shrink the diameter down of the original by 1mm and then double it up. This would provide redundancy and make it cheaper (prices is a square law of diameter).
Only just found this, REALLY interesting stuff. I would like to know how this may or may not affect your Insurance. We all know insurance companies get a bit anal about SS rigging and the 10 year rule of thumb. I'd be interested to know if insurance companies would be capable of recognising or at least understanding the principles and properties of the Dyneema rig in order to insure the vessel.
They do! And they like it!
It’s still new stuff so they don’t have the time limit part yet.
Really interesting video, even for a novice sailor who doesn't understand any of the knot references. But as is the case with many of these sailing videos, nobody says anything about the relative costs -- both materials and, if you don't do it yourself, the install. Maybe it's in the comments below, but who wants to search them all.
I did a blog post a few years ago on just this very topic. Check it out with the link below:
www.riggingdoctor.com/life-aboard/2016/11/7/cost-of-conversion?rq=synthetic%20rigging%20conversion
Another great video! I am new to sailing and greatly appreciate all the information you two provide! Thank you!🤙🏾
It’s a fun world to come into!
Great video, I'm new to sailing and this concept is right up my street. I love that it's doable for anyone with all those extra benefits including self checking for wear.
Definitely looking into that. Thank you. I replace my life lines with dynema almost ten years ago. I though it would be a good first test. I figured it would last about first years but it’s still going strong. Very happy with that.
Loved the synthetic rigging work. You know one the coolest things to do in the Bahamas is right at Nassau. Atlantis has a marina, and for about 4.50/ft the entire crew gets a place to stay overnight, and free admission to the Atlantis water park. Just FYI! The waterpark and hotel room are normally like 1000 per person or something silly. Cheers!!
So you show up in your dinghy?
@@court2379 No you have to pay for a Marina Slip...
@@allynonderdonk7577 I was implying that the dingy is short, so the price would be low as a joke.
@@court2379 Ok I see...didn't get it until you explained it.
You said that you chose Dyneema because you wanted something you can do yourself and you can't do that with Stainless and swaged fittings. You can do it with Sta Loc and stainless. I do it all the time and I am not a rigger. I would just not feel safe crossing an ocean with synthetic rigging. It is just too new and has not been tested enough for me.
Awesome info about Sta-Loc. Thanks.
Sta-lok is a great product and I've used them a bunch, they just didn't fit the budget. The problem with sta-lok is the weight factor. You can still only carry one stay as a spare because of the weight penalty.
You are right about the price of Sta-Loc it is expensive.
"I would just not feel safe crossing an ocean with synthetic rigging. It is just too new and has not been tested enough for me."
Volvo Ocean Race yachts all use synthetic rigging. Is that tested enough for you?
@@Garryck-1 ECsix carbon rigging is not the same as what shown in this video.
Synthetic standing rigging? maybe next time, probably next time. Your system of using lashings and deadeyes for tensioning is pretty darned clever. On the one hand, it is all rope, all repairable, no metal fatigue or closed-cell corrosion to worry about, on the other hand your system is so onerous to use in practice that you preferer to sail around in cold weather with your standing rigging improperly tensioned. I'm not sure I'm willing to go there.
I would want a system where if a front moves through mid Atlantic that drops the temperature 20-30 degrees, that in fifteen minutes I can go around the boat and for every 10 degrees of temperature drop I can turn each turnbuckle X-number or turns and the tension will be right - or something like that. Something dead easy and dead simple. I just don't see that working with a deadeye system - there are just too many layers in the way of making a necessary adjustment.
Really love that back-stay tensioner though. That is trick!
Is there any particular reason you don't use turnbuckles so the tension can be adjusted quickly and easily with any change in temperature? Tensioning the rigging using the winches and frapping knots seem very time consuming.
Turnbuckles would be nice, but we needed 11 of them and for our size, they cost around $100 each. To save on the cost, we went with deadeyes which cost about $24 in materials.
Hello guys!, thanks a lot for this informative video! (I understand its 3 years old by now btw). Two questions: 1. you mention you have to service the spreaders protection; so..How often do you service the dyneema protection in the spreaders?.
The second question: It is my understanding that Dyneema gets degraded with the sun light; how do you guys deal with this; would it make sense to cover somehow the rigging to protect it from UV lighting?.
Again, many many thanks! :D
Hello! While it’s an older video, it all still holds true.
Service is when you wrap another line tightly around the one doing the work. www.riggingdoctor.com/life-aboard/2015/9/1/line-service
I haven’t had to do anything in those areas and we’re entering the 7th year now!
As for UV, yes and no. The outer 0.1μm gets destroyed and protects the rest of the line, so there is no loss in line strength and it’s easier to inspect without a cover hiding it.
@@RiggingDoctor sweet!, thanks for the quick reply! =)
Ok it’s now 2022 and the rigging on your boat is 7 years old. Have you had to repair any of the standing rigging and is it still in use with no problems tho king about doing this with my little sailboat and would definitely like your input Love the vids keep it up
It’s still going strong! Budget wise, deadeyes are cheapest, but if you can afford it turnbuckles with deadeyes will make your life easier.
We haven’t had to replace any synthetic stays but we did have to replace our inner forestay (which was still steel) with Dyneema back in 2020. All the other stays are still from 2015 :)
@@RiggingDoctor outstanding. Think I’m going to go this way. Thanks for the reply. Stay safe out there
Just Watched this With more Focus than The Last Occassion ( I have more Of an Application to Practice with now 🤪)
H -When Will You Publish this as An " E Book" - ? complete With Graphics by M ??
Will watch Again Soon 🖖👍⚜️🔩🦣
It’s in the to-so list.
When we rerig the alberg, we will have lots of opportunity to record everything and make literature on the topic.
I can't wait to get through 8 feet of snow to get to my boat so I can change my rigging to synthetic. I got about 4 kilometres of synthetic rope of various sizes and colours. I'm going to go crazy with it. Thanks for all the nice closeups and tips that will help me immensely . What are those frictionless eyes made from? Some special high density polymer ? or what ? Can they be printed with Graphite ink ? SS Eyes are so dam expensive here.Cheers
They are just plain old stainless steel eyes from West Marine. The big ones cost around $14 each, the smaller ones were only a few dollars.
You can use any polished metal surface in there, the only goals are to reduce friction and withstand thousands of crushing pounds.
If you have any questions along the way, feel free to email me and I can get back to you with detail photos of any parts you have questions with.
@@RiggingDoctor Thank you very much! I will email you to pick your brain when the time comes. Greatly appreciated ! Fair winds
Anything to report after several years?
Still going strong!
I love it, thanks for all this information
the german yachtmagazin palstek.de had a nice article on the topic dynema rigging. You might get big problems with the peak loads at the points where you fix the dynema to the boat. the 7x19 stainless wires usually used have a lot of strech when there comes some power to the boat. You would never ty your boat to the dock with dynema because you might lose your clamps when some heavy swell will move the boat. you will use some polyester with 10 -30 % stretch to cut of the peak load. the palstek rigg doctors recommend to strenght the points of fixation the dynema a lot !!!
Really really small point. There are some really picky people, companies, clients that I have worked for who insist on 2 threads extending even beyond the nylock nut.
I really enjoy this episode. Probably why it's my 3rd time watching it, or is it 4. Either way. Thanks for the information you toos.
Good video, what about using double braded Kevlar as a cover at the spreaders?
That would work very well and save you the time of applying the service to the stay.
Old but great posting.
Thank you!
How is your rig doing five years on? I am considering something similar.
It’s 8 years going strong!
Nice video! Which size of Dyneema rope are you using?
Can you do a update after 5 years how is your rigging held up what have you fixed, and what has been replaced
Would you be able to mix/match synthentic with steel standing rigging?
For example, replacing the lowers with synthetic, while leaving the uppers as stainless. Or replacing the shrouds with synthetic and the fore/aft stays with stainless?
I replaced my lowers last year, but the uppers were swaged in place and I couldn't take them off without cutting them. I would consider replacing the uppers with synthetic.
My forestay requires a metal stay for the roller furling that is presently in place, so I probably would stay with the same.
But my aft stay could be easily replaced with a system like you mentioned.
Is it fine to mix/match or are there some other considerations that I should know about?
The headstay and backstay can mix and match, but shrouds should all be one type.
Synthetic and steel expand differently as temperatures change. Your mast will only be in tune if it is the temperature you set it at. This means you would need to tune the Rigging every time you went out because of temperature changes.
If they are all steel or all synthetic, then they will all change the same with temperature and the mast will remain in tune.
@@RiggingDoctor Thanks! I'll consider it as an option! I think it will be a good match for my Contessa 26. As boats get larger, are there limits to when synthetic stops being appropriate? Is it the same considerations for a small boat like mine vs, say a 45' steel sailboat vs something larger like a 52' Amel vs a 60' super yacht?
Jordan Harkness everything just gets bigger and more expensive. On your contessa, this will work great.
The reduction of weight aloft will make her more stable and even more stout of a little circumnavigator! A friend of mine has a contessa 26 and they are solid and sea worthy!
dynema for life lines too
Who’s on the boat with you . There on the bow ?
He was our second attempt at having crew on the boat. He was supposed to sail with us from the Bahamas to the Azores, but we made a stop in Bermuda so he could get off the boat and fly away from us.
That is so awesome, and inspiring!
Thank you. Very educational.
Bravo, Bravo, Bravo! Cheap way to get going and sail inexpensively while on the cheap to fix and replace.
Indeed, get out there and start cruising. Upgrade as you go if you want!
@@RiggingDoctor Where did you buy Dyneema from?
I got it at West Marine. With my corporate account there I get a discount and it is priced quite reasonably.
Could you explain why there are "extra" parts? The tang on the mast attaches to a toggle which then attaches to the stay. Couldn't you do without the toggle? That would eliminate 3 parts. At the bottom... There are like 10 parts. And my vocabulary is not strong enough here to describe it quickly so I hope you just believe me and count them yourself so you know which parts I am talking about. I would have used stainless steel triangle ring to clevis pin (3 parts). But maybe these are stupid ideas...
The toggle at the top of the stay is to orient the eye so that it doesn’t chafe. With the lowers, if they both go into the tang, they would rub. Having the toggles orients the eye splice towards the mast and away from chafe.
In the lower part of the stay, the eye connects to the deadeye via a lashing. The deadeye connects to the chainplate via a toggle.
If you eliminate the deadeye, you need to replace it with something that can take the load of the rigging without breaking and offer a smooth radius bend to the lashing.
If you have pictures or links to something that can take the load, please let me know about it! At the moment, this is the simplest method I can come up with. *some of the toggles at the top are overkill but I already had them an kept them there.
As far as load ratings, everything in the Rigging (except the toggles) is built to 30,000lbs breaking strength. The toggles are the “safety fuse” and break at around 10,000 pounds.
@@RiggingDoctor oh, engineered breaking point is a good idea...
What is your desired diameter for the bend? I'm sure there are shackles that big. I have some 3K kg (edit: oops, I had one too many zeros. Only 3000kg So still much smaller than you want) shackles but I think they are a bit thinner than what you are using. A triangle ring would be nice since it has no moving parts, but your American measurements are killing me and so far I only found little ones. I'll switch to my computer and look a bit more.
Thanks! I don’t remember the radius of the turn off the top of my head but the thimbles accomplished it. If it’s about that size it would work!
@@RiggingDoctor Ok, I did find a schackle with a 30k lbs breaking strength. And at this price you'll probably want to stick with your deadeyes. 1" anchor schackles 10,000lbs WLL 120$ each: www.bosunsupplies.com/1-Inch-Stainless-Steel-Anchor-Shackle-S0116-FS25.html
A triangle ring with that strength would need to be a little bit thicker, and I didn't find those anywhere, and it seems like forged triangle rings are more expensive than anchor shackles per diameter (I did 1 quick comparison on one of the biggest triangles I found). But here is a listing for a 800WLL triangle ring just for comparison: www.bosunsupplies.com/SD191953.html
Looks like I will be making some deadeyes! Thanks for the good advice.
Deadeyes cost $24 in line (4 feet of line). Thanks for looking for new and cheaper ways of getting the job done!
It’s been a synthetic world for many decades, well, since nylon was invented.
Or were you running wooden pulleys and hemp rope ? 😎👍
would you recommend synthetic rigging two years on? I am looking into possibly doing it on my boat!
Our rigging is now 7 years old and 15,000 miles, I still recommend synthetic standing rigging 👍
@@RiggingDoctor Thank you!
Could you skip the toggles and go directly into the tangs? If so it would save even more weight at the top of the mast where it has the most effect on heeling. Cons?
Yes, but the tangs for the lowers are close together and the eyes would rub. The toggle simply flips the eye by 90*.
The toggles at the top are not necessary but they looked a little less “chafey” than the tang of the eye were to ever rub on it.
In steel rigging, the toggles are mandatory because they provide a universal joint at the end and greatly reduce the incidence of stress fractures in the end fittings and wires. Dyneema won’t fracture, so it’s more focused on space. 1/2 a pound at the top of the mast is about 25 foot pounds on a 50 foot mast, so small numbers can make big differences!
Definitely try to use the least amount of parts that will safely accomplish the task at hand.
Great answer! Cheers!
Hey guys I have been looking up and down in the comments but can't see anything about inspections and when you know its time to replace.
We talk about that a lot in our other videos. When Dyneema reaches the third phase of its lifecycle, it will begin to creep a lot. Until that point, you have rock solid rigging that doesn’t need to be replaced yet.
With inspection, your main issue is chafe. Keep it from chafing and you are in good shape 😉
A dedicated video on inspecting synthetic rigging is a great suggestion. Thanks :)
@@RiggingDoctor thanks final question for the moment I understand any chafing is bad but is there an acceptable amount?
Yes there is and there are guides available from Samson which go over the amount of chafe and it’s effect on the strength of the line.
www.riggingdoctor.com/life-aboard/2015/10/16/how-much-chafe-is-too-much
I would love to have a dyneema rigging, but I'm not experienced in rigging unfortunately. Do you know anybody, who can do it in the south of France or Spain? My Boat is 15mx4.75m and has a furling mast.
Unfortunately I do not know of anyone in that area, but I can ship internationally ;)
Very old-school, very nice..!
"Stainless steel is not practical."
Lol...
Not on a cruising boat. The harsh exposure to salt water and constant use kills the rigging in no time. When your rigging fails in a remote third world country, you are in trouble if you have steel and no one to fabricate replacement stays for you. With synthetic, you can easily carry a spare spool and fabricate your new rigging anywhere you find yourself.
@@RiggingDoctor
If that scenario came to pass, you would use your synthetics to rig a stay until you could make a stainless shroud.
Let's not quibble over hypotheticals. Remember, it was stainless that replaced rope rigging.
Where do you get the idea that saltwater and use kills stainless in no time? You're picking the fly specks out of the pepper.
I love your videos and this one is especially helpful. I'm heading back to our boat next month, after 5 years away, to replace my rigging to dynema and swap the diesel to electric.
I wanted to head down there (guaymas, mx) with the dynema I will need with me. Do you know I good source, you would recommend. And what sizes would you suggest? My boat is a Cal Cruising 36. I'm not sure if I will reuse the current turnbuckles.
Can you send me an email to riggingdr@gmail.com?
Amazing
Great video! Lots of information. We will be following for further updates!
yep, I did the same!!
Where you purchase the dynnema and how is holding on as of today?
I buy mine at West Marine. The rope you want is New England Ropes STS-HSR 3/8” or 9mm.
Buying it by the spool gives you a good discount and if you are buying in bulk, you can usually negotiate a better price. Ask them about giving you “port supply price” on the spool since it’s a bulk sale.
Other option is to wait for them to have their sales (Labor Day and Memorial Day are the two big sales where the discount is better than what I would pay with my Port Supply discount).
It’s currently 7 years old and 15,000nm sailed on it, and it’s still going strong. Steel rigging needs to be replaced every 10 years or 10,000nm, so in that sense we would be halfway through our second rig (if we were steel) but instead we are still sailing strong!
@@RiggingDoctor Thank you, I should be getting my chair soon get all the measurements and order a 600' spool. If you in Puerto Rico I'll contract you.
What are your thoughts on New England Ropes, 7mm 'heat-set' dyneema for the Standing rigging on an Alberg 30? That was suggested to me by Kraken Structures, after I saw them mentioned on Sailing Zingaro. I am still boat searching and exploring ideas...Have to get caught up on your 'regen' videos, too...
That would work great. I used 9mm here for a 45 foot boat. The Alberg has a lot lower load on the rigging, having less ballast and a much shorter mast. They also make excellent sailboats.
Let me know if you have any questions about the conversion, I would be happy to help as a reference.
Tensioning the synthetic rigging seems like it would be a nightmare. Also I don't know how you can properly check for perpendicularity on the water.
That video will be coming out soon ;)
What about a furler and Dyneema?
You would be testing a brand new system because it hasn’t been done successfully yet. The issue is the furler chafes the Dyneema and you can’t inspect it under there.
Free range sailing on TH-cam have synthetic standing rigging with the exception of the roller furling they have. That one cable is still stainless steel and this system seems to of worked well for them.
Cool! Thanks
No problem!
Great video very informative. I notice you use "standard" Thimbles on your rigging, my question is was this a purely economic choice or would you have chosen the cast polished thimbles given the choice thanks
It was based on cost. The regular thimbles cost me $1.50 each where a sailmakers thimble cost me $12 each.
The regular thimbles crush down until the ends meet, then they stop closing. They work well unless they are hit hard from the side and cause the ends to slip next to each other. Under the tension they hold, the thimble buckles and crushes, then needs to be replaced.
A sailmakers thimble would be far stronger and safer, but cost significantly more where I was when I made the rigging.
@@RiggingDoctor thanks for the reply I am considering all this stuff in preparation for purchasing my first big boat at 1.50 i see the attraction my concern is risk of chafing but at that price would be easy to swap them out if they show signs of deformation
Indeed! We carry a bunch of spares with us. The cost of all of them and spares was less than the same sailmakers thimbles.
I use forged thimbles on my heat set dyneema rigged F 31. Overkill probably, but they're smooth and strong and cost is reasonable. Defender industries.
Thanks for your video. You were mentioned by Sailing Zingaro, so I needed to see your video. I see that my question of whether you can use a Loos Tension Gauge on Synthetic Dyneema has already been answered!!! Now, I need to check out your blog...Others also suggest buying Brian Toss's book,"The Rigger's Apprentice" --- I found that reference by watching Project Atticus's videos on how to do Sta Lok rigging and calculations...I'm retired and planning for my first boat, an Alberg 30...
Alberg 30s are great boats! The riggers apprentice a great book as well for understanding rigging. If you rerig your “soon to be new to you” Alberg with synthetic, expect it to cost around $800 total for all the materials involved.
Zingaro has a very pretty looking system. I like how he color coded the port and starboard components :)
Let me know if you have any questions as you go!
What about the forestay and hank on sails?
They get a chafe sleeve cover and work just fine. Our hank on headsails have over 15,000nm on them with no signs of chafe to the headstays.
@@RiggingDoctor Thanks for the information
7:01 a Moebius Brummel (sp?) eyesplice? Intriguing. Wold love to see you do a how-to video on your various unusual splices, knots, etc. And, if may ask, you're a pretty young guy...where did you learn all this, and how long have you been sailing?
Stay tuned, soon we’re going to be putting out a daily video for a week on just this topic!
I learned some of the splices from reading various books and then I invented the splice to make the deadeye and the knot to tie off the lashings. So far the rigging is 5 years old and still going strong with over 10,000 miles on it! 🙂
At about 3:16 is that damage to the rigging at about seven thirty o'clock and about a 5th of the way up the screen in the video?? or is that just an illusion?? Looks like its just about to let go!!!
Those are the dying lazy jacks. They are soon to be replaced with new ones!
These bronze toggles that you use, do you know who manufactures them, and are they still available? Any part/production numbers?
They are made by Alexander-Roberts and are still for sale on the West Marine webpage.
I don’t know the part number as these were on the boat when I bought it.
Cost implications? You are carrying a mass of dyneema as rigging and spares.
We carry a spare spool with us. The cost for all the new rigging and an entire spare set was $4,400 in Maryland (near Annapolis) where the cost to have the boat rerigged was $18,000. So significantly cheaper!
@@RiggingDoctor That's a prompt reply! Many thanks, looks like a great way to go. I have an old S&S34 and will have to renew the rigging next year so may well go to dyneema. The coefficient of thermal expansion might be an issue. If I set it up in Wales in the winter and then go south it will get shorter and increase the rigging loads, but by how much. That's a rhetorical question, no answer expected. Oh, just found your article on this. Good stuff!!
www.riggingdoctor.com/life-aboard/2020/4/21/thermal-expansion-and-rigging-tension
This post really goes into the details of it all. I would keep an eye on it as things warm up and just set it up on the looser side of things so as it warms it gets to the “ideal tightness” and not “overly tight”.
@@RiggingDoctor The other way to go is to put in bottle screws to make adjustments quick and easy, I suppose that defeats the object of the exercise a bit, but only a bit!
TFS well presented and I think most can understand what your doing with the rigging. One question I have is can you use a self furling jib on the forestays or will it abrade the dyneema. The way your setup to handle lines from the cockpit would lend itself to having self furling on both jibs. I do thing the weigh loss with the dyneema is a good way to lower your center of gravity.
The furler can chafe the Dyneema and there would be no way to inspect it. As far as I know, there is still no furler over Dyneema.
I’m new to sailing and I think I need a beginner tutorial before I watch this. Any recommendations?
th-cam.com/video/MctpeFJ4AuY/w-d-xo.html
This one shows the whole installation and all the parts involved so you can get a feel for what is happening here.
well done. thanks. I will be switching over as soon as I can get my mast welded to change the attachment points.
Starting to make dyneema ringing. Thanks for your video
Excellent!
How about putting a stainless steel pipe over synthetic rigging at the bow as a protection from the anchor? Could slide it up to inspect the rigging.
That is an option! I just put a turnbuckle there so that the lower portion is bronze instead of rope.
Excellent points!