Flash is right? He committed a slippery slope fallacy... If you won't let people have nuclear bombs you're going to end up killing people who don't recycle aren't you?!
That's part of the reason that Clark went astray, the flash died too. Funnily this was also the plot of the justice league episode for the cartoon series where they went to a universe where they all went evil. Who was the one that triggered it? The flash dying. Lois was still even alive in that world's timeline. They all went tyrant after the flash died.
@@chaosdirge4906Not just died but he was murdered by lex Luthor. The president of the United States in this universe it showed that no matter how much lives they save a corrupt system could betray anyone of them for doing a civil duty.
Flash has the best injustice arc imo, He sides with Superman because he understands why he kills joker and he’s his friend, but once he sees what Superman is becoming, he switches sides.
@@suicide1015 wasn't that in the game(s)? I watched the movie (which seems to be the closest to the comics afaik) and I don't even remember Shazam being present in the whole thing
You gotta love how the flash doesn’t just think fast, he moves fast. He may seem stupid at times, but he could be a genius if he wants to Edit: DEAR GOD THIS IS STILL BLOWING UP😂 Edit 2: 1 year later, peeps are still paying me a visit. It's been an honor thank you all, also I apologize again for forgetting Flash's origin story😂
The thing about the flash is that he is NOT stupid, at all, he just likes to be silly rather than uber serious (like batman or wonder woman) or simply smiling and waving like superman, he engages and interacts with people, random people.
The Flash could easily become the smartest man alive by reading every encyclopedia in just 1 minute or less. Sure, he would retain the info for one hour, but he would be the smartest man alive for one hour.
Flash just committed the ol slippery slope fallacy, not very genius. If you won't let people have nuclear bombs you're going to end up killing people who don't recycle aren't you?!
It's a shame that Flash's full potential is never really used. I can understand why the writers don't make him omnipotent as he could be for the sake of having an interesting story, but there's no reason he should be losing to anyone. Sometimes he can run so fast he can time travel. Sometimes he's so durable he can withstand nigh infinite g's. Sometimes he can run at like 40 mph and get knocked out by something that couldn't kill even a regular human.
@@giovanisatiro30 I suppose there's always the faint possibility that they were being super predictable (even something moving at light speed can be intercepted if you know where it's going and can move into position ahead of time), although considering it's catwoman of all things, that's quite the absurd logic stretch the author made.
@@norrecvizharan1177 That's how Polnareff beat the Hanged Man in JoJo but somehow a sizeable group of reading impaired "fans" have decided that means Silver Chariot can move at light speed. I'm like "HE LITERALLY SAYS HE JUST PUT HIS SWORD IN THE VERY PREDITABLE STRAIGHT LINE HANGED MAN WOULD BE FORCED TO TRAVEL!"
Same problem with Superman. Its very hard to write a story revolving around an omnipotent main character. You would have to go to other avenues of intrigue, like emotional and humor like One Punch Man, or the moral and philosophical aspect like good Superman stories. Otherwise you just get powercreep like Dragon Ball Z and Goku
One thing very few people seem to realize is that really, the Flash *could* have stopped Superman at any time. He just never really wanted to hurt his friend. DC confirmed a long time ago the Flash's infinite mass punch is capable of outright killing anything short of celestials, and even a lot of them wouldn't exactly be in great shape after eating it.
Batman confirmed ... if Barry Allen dies then all things would cease to exist including Clark. He outran death physically and traveled through multiple universes and dimensions long before he was a justice league member ... then man basically created himself during Flashpoint on the series... and the movie (animated). He's the one person vandal savage was scared of. And he happens to be the only person who keeps his humanity in check at all times ... he's never disassociated from the people he cares for.
@@legoman81020 After which he proceeded to die (again) anyway. They really need some guidelines to keep the dumb from escalating because of each new writer being so determined to undermine their immediate predecessor.
Even superman agreed. The reason the League called him out was because they felt betrayed. Rightfully so, as they were used against them, but that isn't the point. Batman prepares for all outcomes, including one for himself. He leaves the League, not out of betrayle or anger, but out of them not willing to see the danger they can be if they so choose. Superman agreeing with Batman, and giving him a weapon to put him down shows his agreement that Batman was reight to have a plan just in case.
I was wondering why his plan against Flash was so much more extreme - but if he possesses capability to learn this *fast*, that was not only reasonable, but even mild.
The flash is such a strange character. He is one of the most known heroes and has one of the most common powers (Super Speed), but the way DC uses it to reveal that just being incomprehensibly fast is enough to make you almost a god is both very interesting and terrifying.
Super speed is just busted all around. It’s simple, which makes it so op. When you can make actions when the enemy cannot, it is pretty simple to just triumph. Someone with super speed can finish the fight before the enemy even realises they are in one.
To be fair, he doesnt ONLY have superspeed. He is virtually invincible physically until the author dont want him to be. You cant tell me a punch only half the speed of light doesnt evaporize the Flash's entire arm the moment he makes contact with anything. The speed force is what makes him super duper busted, and that thing is basically just plot armour like how Superman is so invincible. But even the Speed force doesnt follow its own rules to make him this busted. In reality, if he tried to touch Superman, whatever touched will break. Superman stands still in the face of steel bullets. You cant tell me a human arm is tougher than steel and metal and metal bullets CRUMBLE in front of Superman. The Flash could go as fast as he wants with the speedforce protecting him from physics repercussions and his superspeed healing his injuries, but every time he punches Superman at super speed, he gets a shattered and MESSED UP arm while Superman didnt even notice a thing. The Flash would do nothing to Superman but hurt himself. Best shot he has is run around, find kryptonite, THEN fight Superman. Without kryptonite aka plot device Flash wouldnt be able to even tickle Superman.
@@Ardeleus Uh, yeah no. I don't think you understand what the Speed Force does. Force in mass times acceleration. So, although Barry doesn't have a lot of mass, his mind blowing speed makes it so he can put out tremendous amounts of force. In the real world, thanks to Newton's third law of motion, Flash would also feel that tremendous force and it would obliterate him. However, the Speed Force makes it so he doesn't feel his own speed. So to him, he'd only feel the same amount of force as if he punched Superman at regular speed. Which wouldn't hurt very much. This is also why he can use superspeed in the rain but bullets still hurt him.
As any tabletop player will easily tell you, having better action economy than your enemy is almost always broken. It doesn't matter if an enemy can kill you in two hits and tank fifteen hits from you if you can hit him sixteen times before he can hit you twice.
People like to forget that flash is or rather can be faster than time itself Same as superman likes to forget this. Flash is playing at half speed. The other half is used to think
Not only that but, Flash is a character who's dealt with time travel on various occasions. He knows firsthand how critical one decision effects entire outcomes. In a game like chess, where every move counts, this perfectly represents Flash's psyche.
This scene makes me want to read the comics. At first, I was turned off by evil Superman. But the idea that the Fastest Man Alive understands the consequences of rulership (same as the consequences of abject criminality) because he can simultaneously simulate multiple outcomes is simply incredible. And it's rare to have such insight in a work of fiction. Usually, the writers are pushing for more Communism, not less.
Has all the time in the world to look up what a slippery slope fallacy is but committed it nevertheless, the ridiculousness of what he said can be shown in opposite terms: "If you won't let people have nuclear bombs you're going to kill people who don't recycle too aren't you?!"
@@V01DIORE He saw that Superman was going down a dark path. Superman wanted to keep humanity safe to an extreme degree. The issue was that Superman only mentioned what directly kills people by violence but that doesnt keep people safe because people can still use other weapons or even drugs. Superman only used the extreme example of getting rid of all guns because it was the best example he could use to convince someone. Violence against innocent people. No one wants that. But there is far more nuance to it and that is what Flash brought to the table. The aspect of Freedom. The Freedom to choose to live the way you wish to live while still being a decent human being. Superman getting rid of all guns even all nuclear armaments wouldnt have done any good. It would have made people resent him as a dictator. Also: Talking about Fallacies is cringe when you dont understand a single thing about the topic thats being talked about. Stop trying to sound smart and start using your brain.
@@Icemario87 Its 100% worth a read, you are gonna enjoy it. Superman is as you can probably see here, turning towards a dark path. I dont wanna spoil too much but lets just say that this is the Batman V Superman we always wanted just not neccesarily as perfect as it could have been on normal terms.
My best guess would be that it basically skips like half the pixels or something to let him fill the rest in himself to make it less inefficient by taking advantage of all his extra processing speed.
A small detail you didn't point out. At first, Superman is saying checkmate, as he is winning the game, but also- at least for now- winning the argument. But once Flash starts saying checkmate, it's because he's debunking Superman's points and winning the game, and with increasing speed. It's a smart way to show how smoothly the dialogue flows as until you read the whole conversation and see where it's leading, you just assume that every "checkmate" is the end of a game. But as you point out, checkmate isn't for the game. It's for the argument.
I mean it is for the game that they're actually saying it, but it has the second deeper meaning of the conversation. The checkmate is the end of the game, but you also know the whole time that they also mean the argument, and flash keeps winning more and more as superman gets more and more off his game
@@apersonwhomayormaynotexist9868You're exactly right! He eventually starts winning the games AND the conversation. And each game humbles Superman ever further because it goes to show him that even though he's confident about a certain situation (he asks Flash if he knows how to play chess, indicating he had some level of skill himself) he's eventually shown that he may still lack the foresight needed to win both the games and the reasoning behind borderline dictatorship.
@@lesterivan282862 I see what you’re saying, but I’m also assuming that they’re playing so fast that, everytime one of them is in check, the next move gets predicted and checkmates the king. Essentially, they’re playing so fast that check is just an irrelevant part of the game at that point bc you’re GONNA get checkmated playing at their level.
It's too bad that when writers come up with superheroes, they don't put an initial limiter in their superpower, (I know Flash has a high calorie maintenance, but that is rarely talked about, and in the TV show they just gave him a big appetite) and in the latest movie he ate a burrito and was full. They gotta give them more limits so that they don't need to dumb them down in order to nerf them. Like in the latest animated movie where he got gassed. Like, cmon, he can think at super speed! (if not light speed as mentioned in the comics)
This movie felt more like half justice lord and half injustice with neither side being good. Mostly because Flash dying is terrible for Injustices story. His whole thing was he was the skeptical one.
Flash is probably one of the smartest people alive. Or at least he should be. He has something that no one else has. Time. Time to think. Time to read. Time to internalize and turn learning into patterns and conceptualize. It just doesn’t seem like it to us because he does it so fast.
@@Jagar_Tharn same logic: You want to ban murder? What’s next ban guns? Then what kill all people who don’t recycle? Boom Air right argument to make murder legal. Or a slippery slope fallacy
@@chaosjoey123 Then again, if you could _personally_ interdict _any_ human action on Earth because you move at the speed of light, it might be a reasonable position to take. The Flash sees human government as being pointlessly slow and irrelevant. He _is_ the de facto government.
I love how cocky Barry is around evil Clark. I mean what’s Clark really gonna do, touch him? Sure. Clark could kill Barry with a punch, if he can land one.
Something that nobody every really tries to touch on is that people who move/think at these absolute insane speeds have (to them) a lot of time to think as the world around them slowly catches up to what they're doing. I like this interpretation of the two of them playing chess at high speeds, and having a conversation at the same speed, spending more time thinking in between each statement than what we can perceive because there's nothing else to do while they wait for the words to be said, not spoken.
I'm convinced within seconds of the Flash receiving his power, he became so insane from the slowness of everything that he becomes this incorruptible person we see in the comics. Aint no way he hasnt had superspeed mental breakdowns before from how immensely fast and slow everything is to him.
It’s actually shown in the DCAU (albeit, with Wally instead of Barry) that his greatest fear, his greatest nightmare, and a fate that he almost suffered at one point in the series, is going so fast that time is at a standstill for him. Everyone else frozen in time from his perspective while he is invisible to them, a dead world where time does not move for the rest of his life.
It was established in the earliest Flash comics that Barry was perpetually, chronically, pathologically tardy. He gained superspeed and Barry is still late to everything. When he works he gets so caught up in what he is doing that he loses all track of time. Sure he can run around the world in under a second, that doesn't help when he was meant to meet Iris for dinner 20 minutes ago three blocks away. It is also often the case that his mind is only as fast as his body. Operating at normal speeds he has no better reaction times than the rest of us.
Personally, I think I like the film's way of portraying this scene a lot. It was with Mr. Terrific instead of the flash, and instead of several games it was only one, with the points of the topic of conversation being analogous with checks rather than mates. I like the change to checks, because it implies that the argument isn't settled just because you made a point that seems reasonable, just like how you don't win at chess just because you made a check. Only when Superman fails to make a reasonable argument back does Mr. Terrific declare mate. Regardless, this is amazing writing on either part. Hats off to the Injustice crew.
Agreed. I only saw the clip like 2 months ago of the chess match, but i liked it better. I always saw chess matches between two people, as if they were debates. And as they take piece after piece putting each other into check, slowly holes are being poked into their logic, as well as points being made when putting someone into check, as the king is being protected or retreating. Superman finding that his idea is fallible and only thinking short-term, with his king being pushed further into a corner and safe, from something that's opposing what he wants to work towards. everything can be said with just one game.
I think it just works better since Mr T is basically a super genius. The Flash might be able to think faster technically, but that wouldn't imply a greater reasoning skill. Thinking fast doesn't necessarily mean thinking right, you csn have systematic flaws in your reasoning that are minor enough at any given time so as to never be fixed unless you explicitly introspect to fix them. Mr T had a reserved, educated, almost dissociated personality that fits these sorts of conceptual arguments a lot better than "I think real fast like". He knew supes wasn't going to take no for an answer, and he knew he couldn't stop him, so it was almost a soft self sacrifice for him, whereas supes really has no way to deal with flash. Plus, its not really skillfull if you win at a gane of chess because you have 5 days to plan a move and your opponent has a minute.
@@felixjohnson3874 read this 3 times over, and yeah you're right! what's even more interesting is that if you think about it, Mr. T is, kind of veteran hero/genius, or at least that's how he's come across to me. this movie was my introduction to him. the way he talks about it all and describes every problem with Superman's logic, says that he asked himself that question a long time ago. or at least came to that conclusion really quickly. superman is such an innocent character at times, it's easy to forget, come to think of it.
There's something lost by having it be a single game though. The way the comic does it adds two things. 1. Having Superman win the first game shows Flash's rapid progress in being able to overcome Superman at a game Superman initially had an advantage in. 2. Multiple games means Superman gets to start over from the beginning and try different approaches, so having Flash continue to beat him implies that no matter which alternative approach Superman takes, Flash will still win.
One of my favorite Flash scenes is in _Kingdom Come._ He's in super speed all the time, invisible, everywhere, fixing every wrong in the city before it can even happen. Not even a scene as much as just a couple panels, but think of the implications. On the one hand, there can be no crime, no traffic accidents, you fumble a sack of groceries and he catches it for you, literally nothing can go wrong. There will never be a school shooting, never a single baggie of crack in your community. He can probably even make the trains run on time every time, stop dangerous weather, and restore power in a millisecond if there's an outage. Sounds like paradise. On the other hand, Flash is watching you pee. No matter where you are or what you're doing, Flash is there. Flash knows what brand of laundry detergent you buy. He knows your browser history, because gotta make sure there's nothing illicit. He knows every off-color joke you ever told at the water cooler, whether it was reported to HR, and whether they issued a warning. He knows the last time you had sex, with whom, for how long, AND, no matter how enthusiastic your partner might have seemed, Flash knows what they said to their friends about it later and if it's negative enough he just might decide you're guilty of something and then there's nowhere you can hide because he's literally everywhere at every moment........it's a perfect nightmare if you think about it. Even seemingly harmless stuff like catching every stumbling toddler is worrisome. Toddlers need to fall, it's how they learn. And you're relying on Flash to stay good, to mostly leave people alone. What if he decides alcohol causes too much trouble? Well, there just won't be any anymore. Gun ownership? Yeah, that's gone. What if he decides that microexpression on your face means you're going to commit a crime, and he simply takes you to prison before you have an opportunity? What if he decides mean words are no longer allowed, and you have six hundred layers of duct tape over your mouth midsentence? And that's without getting nasty. There's nothing he can't do to you. No lightspeed punch required. He already has all the time in the world and there is literally no way to ever hold him accountable.
Yeah that's worse than Injustice superman by a huge margin. It's basically doing what supes does but perfectly. Keeping everyone safe but at the cost of everyone's privacy and freedom and it's all decided by one man who's essentially a godlike dictator. But this one you can't even see and as soon as you express any hope of resistance he immediately catches you. Nightmare Scenario.
Superman had the right idea but he missed the point, like Alcohol Prohibition people will still find ways to make guns, the better idea would be subconsciously influence people into having crippling fear of violence and war, get into their heads and they will stop using guns
@@cyberklashnikov3062 Thats not the point, superman doesn't care about the guns being turned on him, its turned on others thats the issue. Also still missing the grander point that eliminating the threat is not solving the issue.
Honestly, not the same thing. It's a lot easier to make shitty alcohol than to make any kind of gun, especially if these two also terminate all production of gunpowder and bullets / shells. And any black market operation would be quickly shut down by a dude who can lobotomize people from outer fkin space. This was probably the author's commentary on the real world issue of guns in the US or something, but it really doesn't work when applied to DC or Marvel.
@@wanderingmercurymarauder761 Was gonna make this point. Here in America there's a constant debate on gun laws and gun safety, but the fact is, no matter how hard it is to obtain a weapon, it's going to be aquired by those who wish to use it. Instead of gun laws and gun safety, we should be looking at what causes people to use said weapons instead. Like, bullying can lead to someone shooting up a school, so obviously bullying should be the priority not guns.
As someone who did LD for a couple years I love the structure of flash’s argument. Like if you look at the begging to the end it’s a slippery slope (the fallacy) and an obvious one at that. By building in decreasing severity from point a to b it is still a slippery slope, but not one that devalues his argument. It strengthens it by pointing out how fast Superman’s idea could turn into something far more general in scope without making a huge leap. I love it.
So here's the thing most people don't understand about the slippery slope fallacy it is only a fallacy when it can be assumed people will stop it at a reasonable point before it gets out of hand what Clark is purposing has no reasonable end point therefore to claim a slippery slope is not a fallacy
It is not a slippery slope. If your reason for getting rid of guns is it will save lives then it logically follows that you should be in favor of getting rid of things that cost lives. Slippery slope is for when the next step in the argument doesn’t logically follow, that’s why it is a logical fallacy. If you wanted to get rid of guns let’s say because people shouldnt be allowed to kill other from across a room(it’s a bad argument but let’s say that was the argument) then it would be a slippery slope to say you also wanted to get rid of car. It might not be a slippery slope to say you wanted to get rid of cigarettes though because of second hand smoke, unless your argument is it’s only bad when it’s instant or quick death.
There's a few things to note here: 1. It isn't only that Barry can think (and move) faster than Kal-El, but he's also smarter. Clark is a farmboy where Allan is a distinguished scientist. Putting that into simpler terms for the game, Clark might think 100 moves ahead to keep up with his super speed, but Barry is playing all those 100 games simultaneously while thinking 100 moves ahead each. 2. Another interpretation of the checkmates would be to consider that Barry could have always won and never had to get better. Rather, if you comsider who wins and how fast it happens, you can see that Clark starts in control, but the crazier Barry's suggestions for future tasks, the quicker he wins... Almost as if Barry's words are there to convey how crazy their antics will become while hos wons are there to convey how they will lose focus and control of the situation faster and faster with every new ambition.
Clark is not a farmboy. He's an accomplished journalist who grew up in a farm and at the same time cultivated the extraterrestrial heritage left to him by one of the greatest scientists of his home planet.
@@suleymanbabak1973 I was talking about mindset. Even Loise Lane calls him "Smallville" because he has a simplistic view on the world (which is what makes him a great paragon) leading him to believe that if we take the complications out of the world, then people can live in peace. You see it here and in the Justice Lords. You can also see this in how he treats Darkseid, as so often this becomes the flaw to Superman's undoing. Meanwhile Barry is a scientist focused on quantum equations. Meaning he is predisposed to thinking about the complexity of what-ifs and alternate situations. Adding super speed thinking, he can do this rather quickly, but the edge in this battle of whits is how the mindset blinds Clark to how far he'll have to go where Barry realizes right out the gate that people are far more complex than a problem one man can solve.
@@Maninawig Well, Superman enslaves the world in Injustice with his thinking, reigning in criminality despite it being a dictatorship with a total surveillance and police state. It's probably not all bad for your average person as it seems like there isn't really any purpose other than to just exist since the JL controls everything and are effectively gods. Meanwhile, the Flash, while being this guy who's capable of seeing all of these outcomes, fucks up the entire universe by doing the one thing he shouldn't out of an entirely selfish desire despite warnings and knowing better. Clark isn't stupid. Lois calling him "Smallville" is based on his persona early on that she grew accustomed to and is nickname at first, then a reminder later on of his roots. Having high processing speed =/= intelligence. Flash has high intelligence and the fact that he can think fast just makes it easier for him to perform complex calculations quicker but it doesn't actually make him smarter. In terms of intellect, it goes Lex Luthor/Brianiac, Batman, Superman, Mr. Terrific, Barry Allen,
I think the increasing frequency of the checkmates actually represents the Flash getting into Superman’s head, causing him to think less about chess and more about what Flash is saying
Writer: It took me decades to write all this books, for 32years have i been creating a immersive series with twists and plot, character all around i made 20 of... Barry: All done, Took me 10 seconds to read them all, Also there are some plot holes you need to fix Writer: * eye twitches * Kind of frightening that he is fast physically and mentally like that time superman studied a entire library for science and had to create something within a minute
same dude could build a whole ass library of alexandria and fill it with personally written books within at max a week and I say a week only because to fill a library like that would take more then 1,000,000+ books, which is to say that he could do something even worse to give that writer conniptions and mental breakdowns for a lifetime
It's more so Flash is the most like Superman as both are the most "regular joe" people when not superheroes. Barry is urban middle class while Clark rural middle class and a big thing about that is how both cultures solve problems. Rural farmboys like Clark are taught to treat problems as "no one else is gonna fix it/can fix it. So I need to do it myself" City Boy Barry is taught that the community work to solve the problem as its naturally bound to affect more people. Both have their issues when put on a larger scale. Clark doesn't take the communitys emotions into enough consideration while Barry can ironically take too long to solve a complicated problem. Doesn't help the speed force allows users to think at super speed too so Barry cam quite literally outthink superman
"wise" using a slippery slope fallacy... the ridiculousness of what he said can be shown in opposite terms: "If you won't let people have nuclear bombs you're going to kill people who don't recycle too aren't you?!"
I believe that Flash's logic is flawed too, you can think of a lot of possibilities, but not ALL of them. People tend to be surprisingly predictable, but also unpredictable, you'll never know in theory what something will do to someone, unless you actually do it.
That's only half true. If you tell someone, "don't think of a pink elephant," You can accurately predict that either A. They will think of a pink elephant, B. They will resist thinking of a pink elephant, or C. They are incapable of thinking of a pink elephant. In case A, you affected their thoughts. In case B, you affected their thoughts. In case C, they have no thoughts. Combine this with repetition and now you understand Bernaysian Propaganda.
The point Flash is trying to make is that trying to be the benevolent "solution" to all of society's problems is a fool's errand. There is always another problem. Always another crisis. Always another issue. Meanwhile, the root causes for the problems remain unsolved. Why do people kill eachother in the first place? Why do people partake in well-documented poison? Why do people act carelessly? Simply removing the symptoms does not solve the problem, and society will be worse off for it.
The logic is flawed because its quite literally a logical fallacy. The ol slippery slope fallacy, can be shown stupid in opposite terms: "If you won't let people have nuclear bombs you're going to kill people who don't recycle too aren't you?!"
The Flash is just playing out Superman's slippery slope. Where infringements on people's rights get more and more extreme as the logic plays out. There's a reason the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. As Clark keeps seeking his Utopia with greater fervor, the atrocities grow, the fallout of said atrocities only strengthening Superman's resolve. We've seen this happen in Italy under Mussolini, Germany under Hitler, basically every tyrannical dictatorship ever. Heck, we see it happening to Canada and the USA too.
one thing not mentioned on the "Checkmate checkmate checkmate" is that this can also be seen as the 3-space rule in chess - aka repeating the same move 3 times in a row without anyone being able to do anything else because one party is constandly put in check but not checkmate = a draw , Superman is not saying anything after the triple checkmate , but just stares back at barry , showing clearly that the words he is speaking have more meaning then his ego is willing to admit
I mean thats probably what it's meant to protray but logically its utterly unsound. A slippery slope fallacy flash committed, the ridiculousness of what flash said can be shown in opposite terms: "If you won't let people have nuclear bombs you're going to kill people who don't recycle too aren't you?!"
@@V01DIORE Flash was just using Superman’s reasoning and showing him that it’s flawed. Superman wants to eliminate everything that is dangerous or a risk to people but there are many things that the only risk they carry is because we choose to keep doing them(i.e. smoking) so eventually Superman would have to take away free will.
Superman's own logic will inevitably fall into the same logic trap that every artificial intelligence gone bad runs into. In order to eliminate all the dangers of lif you have to eliminate the most dangerous thing of all...life itself.@@Atom_of_pluto
@@Atom_of_pluto Yeah not at all the comic author putting in his political agenda on gun control with a slippery slope fallacy. I suppose he could literally write superman killing people for not recycling to try make the logic stand but eh.
@@V01DIORE The slippery slope is only a fallacy when improperly utilized; it's not inherently a fallacy. With that being said, Superman did become a dictator in the injustice universe, so flash was completely right in assuming his desire to help would end restricting peoples' rights.
I think another reason he got to checkmate Clark so many times is because Clark was thinking about what he was saying more and more and realising its true.
Poor writing but I don't expect comic writers to great at logic... flash has all the time in the world to look up what a slippery slope fallacy is but committed it nevertheless, the ridiculousness of what he said can be shown in opposite terms: "If you won't let people have nuclear bombs you're going to kill people who don't recycle too aren't you?!"
@@boberto930 If that's not a good example of his argument then why aside from nuclear bombs being replaced with guns is it literally his argument? I just changed it to a reverse slippery slope fallacy including nuclear bombs to show you how nonsensical it is logically. But nice of you to strawman my argument with an unexplained accusation of strawmaning itself in irony.
@@V01DIORE "why aside from nuclear bombs being replaced with guns is it literally his argument?" that isnt his argument tho. " But nice of you to strawman my argument with the accusation mine is the strawman" you dont even know what a strawman is
@@boberto930 Did you even watch the video? Flash went from saying about banning guns, alcohol and smoking to super man killing people for not recycling, literally a slippery slope fallacy, or are we commenting on different videos? Strawman: "an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument." Do you? By falsely asserting my argument is a strawman to more easily defeat it when it's not is literally strawmanning in of itself lmao.
I always find this funny cause Flash is depicted as beating supermans point, But its never addressed, And even in trying to dismiss it, banning cigarettes is also a objective good, if you speed enough you do get imprisoned, and if you leave your dog unleashed your actively risking peoples lives, And then it jumps to Killing people who don’t recycle, trying to through a slippery slope fallacy say that removing all guns means you want to kill everyone who doesn’t recycle, And there is no reason to think this, even disregarding recycling is basically a myth, Removing Guns will cause drastically less gun violence, even if some people still have guns, they’re fewer, And most people using guns impropely aren’t “criminals” its people who were law abiding before hand and had too bad of a day, It is a kid who was bullied, a father who lost their daughter, It is not a abstract group of evil criminals, Additionally Banning cigarettes would save lives yes, and the biggest issue would be providing services to help ween addicts off of it, But what I find more intriguing is it is kind of implying its impossible or immoral to, or that guns are addictive, Then Speeding, which similarly to recycling if we ignore our speed limits and road laws are really poorly made, How is speeding related to gun violence? Is it because its second to guns in child and teen mortality? And speeding is already illegal, at this point we’ve already jumped from legal to illegal things, Especially leaving dangerous dogs unleashed, which generally would mean the dog had already bit once, maybe yeah we should jail those people, cause the alternative is euthanizing the dog? And then suddenly we’re killing people who don’t recycle? The logic makes no sense, it only serves as a “short, quipy and wrong” argument, it makes the viewer think they’re right because its quipy and short even if it is fundamentally wrong or a fallacy
Love the general premise of the scene but as someone who doesn't live in the USA the clear pro-gun propoganda is super jarring lol. When every other country on the planet has figured out how to curb gun violence its hard to see Supes as in the wrong here
I don't really see how it's pro gun. Flash just said that if they take the guns, people will hate them. He never said it wouldn't save lives (in fact he said that it most likely would), he just said that it wasn't his choice to make, and that they don't know what the ramifications of that decision could be
The crazy thing is you don't even realize that his argument isn't really about guns, but freedom of choice for humans. All he's doing is explaining the slippery slope fallacy and applying it to what Superman is saying. But because you're so anti-gun all you can see is "he wrong, gun bad", without even realizing you're exactly the person injustice superman (or any dictator) wants in their empire, because your own gov has already convinced you to give up freedoms willingly. And not only have they convinced you of that, but they've convinced you it's a good thing as well to give up your ability to defend yourself.
It’s not propaganda. We’re real people offering real points of view. I have to say I find it odd that someone who lives in a country without gun ownership would think they’re the expert on firearms and how the subject should be handled. You literally have no basis upon which to form a rational opinion.
Superman is All American 😂 who cares what you think? What part of the world? The part that supports genocide in Palestine or the ones on the verge of WW3 because a foreign nation invaded Ukraine? If it wasn’t for American guns there would’ve been 6 world wars by now.
The fact that the writers treat this fallacy as some big gotcha moment for the Flash is a perfect representation of the quality of writing in this story.
I love how you can watch Flash change his tactic. He starts off trying to appeal to reputation, Superman has been showed in many iterations to genuinely care what the public thinks of him. But this Superman has moved past that, he’s willing to accept being hated if it means doing what he believes is right. So Flash changes course, pointing out the hypocrisy at the core of this Superman’s argument, that even though his goal could be justified, Superman’s changed so much that it will not stop there
I feel like Flash is making a lot of assumptions that a Superman that is more proactive about catching bad guys is destined to turn evil. While the definition "bad guys" might be dubious as long as Superman isn't violating any major red lines such as killing people at will, overthrowing world leaders, private prisons, and etc I don't think supporting Lord Superman is a bad thing when he's clearly trying to work through his negative feelings in a seemingly positive manner.
one thing i'd like to point out is how, everytime the flash mentions somenthing, he gets increasingly more extreme take away(guns)-imprison-kill because that IS what would happen
Haven't read the comics, but I almost think that the checkmates aren't Flash showing an ability but Superman losing focus. I think that Flash's comments are starting to reach Superman, the real Superman, and he's pondering the ethics. Thinking about the course of thought because it makes sense, and thus no longer thinking ahead about which pawn to move 10 seconds from 0.1 seconds from now. Honestly, it seems like it starts with Superman flexing that his ability is superior to Flash and he shouldn't question. But it transitions. Flash seems to agree with Superman but starts to point out the flaws, slowly. Starting on very common ground and then working to what we mortals would view as an absurd take to an argument or debate (what about peoples dogs, though its a creature of its own free will). But everything honestly goes that deep and far, as long as we're willing to see it for what it is.
I believe in animated version, Mr. Terrific asked the question instead m Because in the show Flash killed by Joker just as Metropolis was bombed Flash was a good choice in comics as he’s both the heart of the team, and is actually a smart person being a scientist enhanced by super speed While without Flash, in show Mr. Terrific being a genius, took an analytical approach explaining where Injustice Superman’s path would lead and won’t support it It’s a shame they killed off Flash, as he would have added a moral compass as the heart of the team, in this scent, although Mr. Terrific wasn’t a bad choice to take the role
Another thing i find very cool about this scene is the way they represent the two sides of the argument through - specifically - an extremely fast game of chess. Superman and the flash, in this case, are physically making moves at around the same speed. The difference-maker, however, which allows Flash to win over and over again (once he has realized the way superman both plays chess and thinks about the world), is that flash is able to literally *think* faster, while superman just keeps up the appearance of moving at the same speed. He is arguing with flash, sure. But even efter doing literal seconds of research, Barry is just operating on a different level than him. Hopefully this rambling makes sense lol
1:17 “Just because you can do something, doesn’t mean you should…” starting to sound familiar. I wonder if Flash is the Peter Parker in the DC Universe…
He basically is. Good natured, sees the good in people, always has a lighthearted quip, always holds back, very smart, doesn't want to hurt anyone, willing to stand alone in the name of good, and always trying to help people, even if they don't deserve it. They're still different characters, but they're very similar in a lot of ways, although I'd say Peter is the Flash of marvel because DC came first.
I never thought Flash humbled him in quite the way most think. Rather he gave a hypothetical to see how Superman would behave, but Superman didn't even have the wherewithal to begin defending his position, so far gone, or at least not thinking is he. Had he been in his right mind he would have pointed out no one walks into a school, lights up a smoke, and kills 5 people and then themselves with that smoke alone, Litterers are already adequately fined for their crime appropriately and petty littering is not what causes Earth's issues. So on and so forth with the other examples. The actual conversation should have been much longer and more thought out between them, but superman stumbles at the first hurdle signifying to the reader he's not putting the appropriate thought into his position.
Barry really should've been on team Batman since the beginning. I know he and Clark are pals, but at the most they're racing buddies. Barry and Bruce understand each other on a level that most others can't. And personally, if Bruce didn't have Clark, I believe Barry would be his best friend.
I think it does make sense Barry being team superman in the beginning Could you imagine the flash turning on superman as one of his villiains mirror master is threatening what little family superman has left? Plus after that it kinda cements that the justice league will not respect governments as those governments will threaten innocents to protect their power But later on??? It's weird one where flash's morality would have him leave but his loyalty to his friends would have him stay
And they decided to kill Flash in the animated movie, that too in a ridiculous way. Good thing is the chess scene was still kept in the movie with Mr Terrific playing against Superman. Though Superman after losing, imprisons Mr T.
I think the moral of the story is that we shouldn't ban human autonomy and free will, just crime. Gun crime is already illegal. Do something about the evil people with guns, not the good ones with them.
There is a bad correlation, gun kills tend to be intentional while car kills are accidental, the smoking is more equivalent but with a small but crucial difference, we might intellectually know it kills, but smokers tend to not understand it in the unconscious way, like when we eat something we know it can lead to problems, we intellectually know the consequences but haven't internalized it. When my grandma internalized she was doing harm to her family by smoking she stopped, no nicotine patch, nothing to replace it, she just stopped. Unintended consequences are way different than conscious ones, I can and have defended myself against people trying to rob me, but that is because I am not in the US, criminals are very unlikely to have guns because the population as a whole is very unlikely to have a gun, we can, but we don't fetishize guns.
Barry pointed out that, if Clark let himself take away one thing that hurts people, he might as well take everything away. If he lets himself start, he may never stop until he realizes the only safe thing for people is death.
Plus the live action version of flash is a HUGE se x offe nder. So you know... no vetting rid of him any time soon. Y ou know how hollywood protecte their own.
Anyone who's had a basic critical thinking class in college can see that Flash's arguments don't quite hold water. His arguments rely on the 'slippery slope' fallacy, which doesn't exactly scream smart thinking.
Every fallacy has prerequisites that have to be met to invalidate them. The appeal to authority fallacy fails when the authority is in fact the guy who did the experiment and has the facts. The no true scotsman fallacy fails when the reason they aren't a true scotsman is because they're a little japanese girl. The slippery slope argument fails when you're boiling the frog. If you want the scotsman fallacy to apply, you have prove them a male scottish national. If you want the appeal to authority fallacy to apply, you've got to show they haven't done their homework. And if you want the slippery slope fallacy to apply, you've got to install some brakes on the rape train and prove they work.
Take away the guns… Says the invincible space alien who has eyesight better than a stereo microscope, all he does is whoop minorities a$$3$ instead of cleaning up the ocean or freezing the water above the coral reefs or freezing the ice caps or something. Nah he didn’t use his super intellect and super speed to become the worlds greatest doctor or scientist since he can literally see microscopic cells, tumors and the tiny white blood cells in your veins, he can even see nuclear fusion inside our very sun from the comfort of his porch.
Would have been a neat touch for the chessboard to look ancient and degraded by the end. Not destroyed, both of them know how to be gentle, just worn enough to show the thousands of games they just played
This is just a slippery slope fallacy. If you want to argue on the merits of taking away guns, you argue that. Why is it okay for nicotine to be legal, but not heroin? Like you can do this with anything, it doesnt make you smart, it just makes you cynical
If this was beyond the purpose of arguing against banning guns, then either the comic needs to go a littke further with that, or this video didnt properly articulate what happened in the comic prior.
Its interesting how they replaced the Flash with Mr Terrific in the Injustice Animated movie, giving the same points as Flash did due to Mr Terrific being insanely smart.
3 หลายเดือนก่อน +4
That's the worst slippery slope argument I've ever seen. A lot of countries have a gunless citizenry and we have a lot less violence and death than for example the US.
The unexplained sudden switch from imprisoning people to killing them didn't make sense.The illogical step would undo any progress in changing Superman's mind by reasoning. Even worse, the argument against gun control has been proved false in many countries outside the US, where guns are controlled enough that gun violence is rare, without tyranny.
i appreciate your ability to deduce so much about the characters and the world without having to divulge into the entirety of the story. It's very impressive that you can gather so much information from just a single interaction.
in the animation version, they made mr.terrific do this scene instead, which is a bit upsetting but since flash had died i’m not too mad. I’m just glad it was kept at all.
The animated film version of the scene had Superman play chess with Mr. Terrific instead of Flash, at a normal pace. Though Mr. Terrific had the same speech as Flash, yet it still fits perfectly since he's one of the smartest heroes around.
To be honest, Barry makes really shitty arguments here. He presents banning smoking as something completely unreasonable, but we already do that with other drugs. It's not unreasonable to ban smoking. And while we don't usually imprison people for doing it, speeding in a car is illegal, you're not allowed to do that. What Flash is basically saying is that outlawing guns would lead to giving people who don't recycle the death penalty. It's a slippery slope. Superman can make guns illegal, but not make recycling mandatory under threat of death. Flash shifts the discussion from "banning harmful stuff" to "punishing petty crimes" and I really don't get how anyone is convinced by his speech
I like this video. The fact that there is also some real life points that have been made without making it entirely political. I think part of the lesson here is that not only is idealism sometimes unrealistic, but is also sometimes toxic. It also points out how some people who try to create the ideal society will stop at nothing to get what they want. I used to believe ideals can get you far, and they can, but those ideals have to be realistic. Banning all guns (especially in America) is unrealistic. Banning smoking and the production of cigarettes is unrealistic. Banning cars that go too fast or aren't safe enough is unrealistic. Forcing everyone to recycle is unrealistic. Sometimes getting people to see the point that idealism is not realistic is also unrealistic. We live in a real world and not a fantasy where things can change and make everything better, and I think that this comic points that out tremendously.
The use of chess specifically here is a really clever symbolism. Chess has become something of a cliché in the public eye as something that pretty much all intellectual fictional characters engage in or think about the world in relation to. Here however, it's being used a bit differently, but still similarly. Chess in specific is a game that is played differently by people of different skill levels. Skill is gained by gaining the ability to think and plan forward more effectively. At a low level, the player doesn't have a plan for what comes next and simply makes the best choice they can think of in the moment to best benefit themselves. Their actions are strictly reactionary. At a high level, they are aware of the positions of each piece on the board, and the potential positions each piece could be in a turn ahead, or two turns ahead, or three, etc. The player is able to plan ahead based on potential future board states and makes moves based on that information. Their actions are strategic. As an added important detail, two high level players playing against each other will try to get a read on each other, get into each others heads to understand each other as much as possible. They will do this so as to have as much useful information as possible to best predict their opponents actions and develop an effective counter-strategy. That is to say, they will play differently depending on who their opponent is and how well they are able to predict their playstyle. With all of this in mind, the use of Chess in this scene is a direct parallel to the conversation between Flash and Superman. If you contextualize the conversation between them as a game of chess in and of itself with each point being made being pieces moving on the board, what we see play out between them is Superman making the first move and getting off to a strong start in the game, only to gradually lose ground as he gets outplayed by Flash. Superman's read on Flash isn't as good as Flash's read on Superman, and Flash also possesses the superior ability to plan ahead, turning the "game" in his favor very quickly. Another thing I like about the scene that could be an unintentional symbolism is that both sides on a game of chess are mirror images of each other. Both players start with all the same pieces. While the game in question is between Superman and Flash, the points Flash is making are very similar to the points Superman himself would have been making before being mentally scarred by the death of Lois and their unborn child. It really brings into perspective that it's not that he's inherently evil, but that he has become very emotionally vulnerable and morally confused. His once steady convictions have been shook, and he now masquerades this weakness as strength. When you bring the comics into the discussion, it becomes clear that Superman is not the bad guy and Batman is not the good guy. Neither of them are either. What exists between them is war, and things aren't so simple as good vs evil. They are both trying their hardest to do the right thing, and are simply in opposition regarding their viewpoints regarding what the right thing is. They both make egregious mistakes along the way with these mistakes gaining and losing them supporters and enemies over time. Injustice isn't a story about good vs evil so much as it is a story about the effects of grief and how one deals with it, the responsibility that comes with power, and the consequences for misusing it.
Unpopular opinion: Flash didn’t win the argument. First of all, that “then we kill” comes out of nowhere, he could have hypothesised prison even for those who don’t recycle, or any other kind of penalty fitter to the perceived degree of the crime. It’s a blatant sophism. Second, none of the indicated courses of action are self-evidently wrong, they just don’t align with a democratic system, a system with which Superman was already prone to do away with. Maybe they should get rid of all cigarettes, maybe punishment for breaking speed limits should be more severe - heck, maybe cars should be banned altogether and replaced with more advanced public transport, teleportation and re-imagining urban structures, and so on. He should have first proved that this is the right system, or at least that his dictatorial position was flawed, which attempted to when he first said “they’ll resent us”, to which Superman effectively countered. The “where’s the limit” argument is flawed because one can easily revert it: if by being consistent with limiting bad behaviour we end up prohibiting everything, which is bad, then by being consistent with let people free shouldn’t we, on the opposite, avoid restrain at all? Every juridical system must set boundaries to people’s actions, and that goes with whatever political framework the system is based on. Flash seems rather to have mixed up the political discourse with the moral one, i.e., even the people in charge, while well meaning, can’t trust themselves. But this is a very general statement which needs backup with particular cases scenarios which are hardly predictable - hence his appeal to their formerly shared liberal values and the mixing. In the end one could easily envision a scenario where Superman’s regime is actually the only good one, in that superpowers allow the authorities to structure society in an ideally efficient way, which at length would solve even the resentfulness problem - but that could be interpreted by the reader as an apology to fascism, so the authors would get backlash, and probably, being U.S. citizens, they wouldn’t be able to bring themselves to accept an authoritarian system being preferable to democracy even in a fictional setting.
For someone as smart as Flash, he should have noticed that what he was saying was just a Slipery Slope fallacy. But we all know his point of view is just the writer's
Every fallacy has prerequisites that have to be met to invalidate them. The appeal to authority fallacy fails when the authority is in fact the guy who did the experiment and has the facts. The no true scotsman fallacy fails when the reason they aren't a true scotsman is because they're a little japanese girl. The slippery slope argument fails when you're boiling the frog. If you want the scotsman fallacy to apply, you have prove them a male scottish national. If you want the appeal to authority fallacy to apply, you've got to show they haven't done their homework. And if you want the slippery slope fallacy to apply, you've got to install some brakes on the rape train and prove they work.
It's interesting that when Injustice starts off, the Joker is just doing his Jolly Japes bit with a nuke, with no idea what he's about to prove. He's not actively trying the same crap with Clark that he tried with Jim Gordon in The Killing Joke. But that's what he ends up doing, accidentally - giving Clark that One Bad Day. And unlike Jim Gordon, Clark Kent responds exactly as the Joker said anyone would, and snaps. Given what we know about Superman's ironclad morals, it really puts Jim Gordon into Sam Vimes territory for the whole 'the legendary (and fictional) Good Cop' thing.
Perhaps but the ridiculousness of what was said can be shown in opposite terms: "If you won't let people have nuclear bombs you're going to kill people who don't recycle too aren't you?!"
@@V01DIOREwhy does everyone in this comment section cling to nuclear bombs thing. Cool man, you can exaggerate, we get it. Its a debate around the cost that comes with achieving ones goals, and whether it's acceptable or even worth it. Why strawman a hypothetical of a hypothetical.
@@Touriquette The exaggeration was meant to be a mirror to show you how stupid flash argument was but you are attacking the mirror lol. He went from why won’t you let people have guns to you’re going to kill people who don’t recycle aren’t you?! Slippery slope fallacy. The nuclear bombs are to make it obvious how nonsensical the logic is but it flew over your head… maybe you will get it now but I don’t have high hopes for your comprehension. Also to suggest a strawman falsely is in itself a strawman argument ironically.
@@V01DIORE You don't need to exaggerate to show an arguement is flawed. Flashes arguement is flawed, I just believe he makes it for a different reason. (Emotional instead of the logic that debate demands) An argument geared towards Superman specifically, not towards the idea of disarmament necessarily. These are characters in a comic book after all. While I meantioned it being a strawman because they're discussion is already on the level of philosophy more so than reality. (Hence, why I mention the strawmanning of a hypothetical) There is no official way to interpret it so any interpretation of the conversation is by nature a strawman. Though I never argued it, since there is nothing to suggest Superman still has restraint at this point the Slippery slope fallacy doesn't apply. In real life sure, but you have to make that distinction. (The slippery slope fallacy partially refers to inevitability, contrast this with Superman who we know will actively persue this. Disrupting the process that justifies a Slippery Slope) Caveats, and conditions still apply, even to fallacies. The fact that you ignored the entire sentence that came before the strawman one proves your lack of comprehension. I thought you'd be more competent and thorough. Your correct, but by being such a pretentious ass you miss the point regardless. Its a hollow victory.
This is such an American sequence. Nearly all other countries don't have the same visceral reaction to the elimination of guns. Nearly all other countries don't have the knee-jerk belief that regulation is inherently a slippery slope. Lots of countries with democracies more functional than the US' have in fact largely eliminated guns. Pretty much no countries have made cigarettes outright illegal, but that's not really because doing so would represent a slippery slope towards introducing more questionable regulation. It's partly because the tobacco companies still have deep lobbying pockets, and partly because, like with the war on other drugs, it's probably more effective to make the things just annoyingly difficult to get, stop them from advertising or otherwise marketing the damn things, tax them heavily, and make sure there's help for people trying to kick the addiction. Overall, Flash's argument is actually pretty bad. But it pushes the buttons of Americans in ways that make them assume it's better than it is. Or rather, the slippery slope argument is bad. His best argument is actually at the beginning--that if they take the guns by FORCE, without legitimacy, it will lead to resistance . . . and Superman can snicker, but resistance need not take the form of trying to hit him with sticks. General strike, for instance, or other forms of passive resistance. There are hundreds of millions of people in the US; if they all agree not to do what Superman says the moment they're not physically in his presence, how much control can he exert?
tell me about it. it's the same crap that led to "defund the police"..and all the surprised pikachu faces at the chaos and crime that erupts after it happens.
It's almost like these writers respect heroes and know how to show a downfall that still respects the hero and what he represents or something. Politics aside, I like how all they had to do was just copy this panel over and over and over and it got the point across *perfectly* in a way that simply doing different angles couldn't. Almost like that's a peak inside of Clark's on mind. How many times has he already considered this? How many times has he argued himself down, or even considered his logic in a positive light, only to have somebody he thought would be on his side using his exact logic, but disparagingly instead of positively? It's an amazing bit of character writing. I could be completely wrong in what I said, but I could also be right. It's what makes writing like this provocative.
@@Nerazmus Except it's not. More people die form knives than guns in America. That doesn't mean we should get rid of all knives. That doesn't mean knives are inherently violent. It means there are people who will do bad. Regardless of what tools they have or don't have at their disposal. UK practically has no guns. Their knife crimes and killings went through the roof. Also, they still have crimes that involve guns. Because bad people, will do bad. Blame the person, not the tool. They're literally unironically calling for "knife control" in the UK.
@@rainynight02 So your stupid argument is "The is something that causes more death than this thing, so we should do absolutely nothign about this thing"? Yeah, that is very silly. Yeah, knives aren't inherently violent because a knife is a tool. You can do a lot of things with a knife. Cut bushes, cut food, cut paper, poke holes in paper, ... and yeah also stab things. Guns on the other hand are because a gun is a weapon. It can be used to kill things, injure things, kill more things and that's it.
Wrong. He’s pointing out that if Superman’s goal is to save as many people as possible regardless of the cost to their freedoms then everything he mentioned is a natural conclusion.
More a philosophical approach, but, if we wanted to stop speeding, we cold just not built cars that go faster than most speed limits (40, 50 mph). Don't build things from unrecyclable materials or ban cigarrette production. I love this interaction in the comic series but I think it's flawed as it always comes from punishing an unwanted behavior rather than reinforcing positive behaviors from design (by removing temptation or even possibility).
I saw this thumbnail but didn’t click on it and scrolled twice and there was a short which was just the thumbnail animated except it was Superman and Mr Terrific
More lives are saved annually in the US by firearms use than are lost because of firearms use by at minimum an order of magnitude. It’s entirely a rational position.
...am I the only one who thinks the Flash's counter-arguments are stupid? "Let's get rid of cigarettes": Cigarettes are a choice people make to harm themselves, not a harm they're inflicting on others. Secondhand smoke is a valid concern, yes, but it's not like it's being weaponized to harm others directly. Besides, if you want to stop cigarettes, go after the companies that make them, especially the ones doing super shady shit in 3rd world countries. To be honest, the same can be said about guns manufacturers... ""Imprison anyone who speeds in a car": Depending on how fast you're going over? Yes, this is a good idea. In fact many states already do this: go so far over the speed limit, and you're guilty of Reckless Driving and get jail time. So yeah, jail people who go dangerously fast. "Lock up anyone who leaves a dangerous dog outside": Again, this is a crime already in most places. It can be considered "Criminal Negligence". Jail them. Or at least take the dog. "Kill anyone who doesn't recycle": This one is the dumbest one, and was likely supposed to be a gut-punch "gotcha", but individual recycling doesn't make a dent in the grand scheme of things. It's all about corporate waste. Again, take it to the companies that produce excessive waste. This isn't a take I see anyone else having, so I know it's not a popular one, but I just don't see this scene as being very compelling. I get what it's trying to do, the whole "slippery slope" fallacy and all that, but... I mean, it's a fallacy for a reason, right? I feel like it could have been directed better, I suppose.
I like how the mental disruption causes Superman to lose more games.
Because Flash is right, and Superman knows it
Flash is right? He committed a slippery slope fallacy... If you won't let people have nuclear bombs you're going to end up killing people who don't recycle aren't you?!
That's part of the reason that Clark went astray, the flash died too.
Funnily this was also the plot of the justice league episode for the cartoon series where they went to a universe where they all went evil. Who was the one that triggered it? The flash dying. Lois was still even alive in that world's timeline. They all went tyrant after the flash died.
@@chaosdirge4906Not just died but he was murdered by lex Luthor. The president of the United States in this universe it showed that no matter how much lives they save a corrupt system could betray anyone of them for doing a civil duty.
@@chaosdirge4906 The Flash didn't die in the comics or the games, that was only in the movie
@@VanillaMidgetSSBMwatch the better world episode.
Flash has the best injustice arc imo, He sides with Superman because he understands why he kills joker and he’s his friend, but once he sees what Superman is becoming, he switches sides.
Even in the animated movies, he's either the goofball and/or one of the most mature and well-rounded members of the league.
He’s kinda like spiderman in civil war, but better
I think he also kinda switched sides after green arrow got killed
@@spyros186 no, it was after superman murdered Shazam.
@@suicide1015 wasn't that in the game(s)? I watched the movie (which seems to be the closest to the comics afaik) and I don't even remember Shazam being present in the whole thing
You gotta love how the flash doesn’t just think fast, he moves fast. He may seem stupid at times, but he could be a genius if he wants to
Edit: DEAR GOD THIS IS STILL BLOWING UP😂
Edit 2: 1 year later, peeps are still paying me a visit. It's been an honor thank you all, also I apologize again for forgetting Flash's origin story😂
The thing about the flash is that he is NOT stupid, at all, he just likes to be silly rather than uber serious (like batman or wonder woman) or simply smiling and waving like superman, he engages and interacts with people, random people.
@@michelecastellotti9172he didn't say that he was stupid he said that he may seem stupid..
The Flash could easily become the smartest man alive by reading every encyclopedia in just 1 minute or less.
Sure, he would retain the info for one hour, but he would be the smartest man alive for one hour.
@@thetitanhater Superman can do that too .
Flash just committed the ol slippery slope fallacy, not very genius. If you won't let people have nuclear bombs you're going to end up killing people who don't recycle aren't you?!
It's a shame that Flash's full potential is never really used. I can understand why the writers don't make him omnipotent as he could be for the sake of having an interesting story, but there's no reason he should be losing to anyone.
Sometimes he can run so fast he can time travel. Sometimes he's so durable he can withstand nigh infinite g's.
Sometimes he can run at like 40 mph and get knocked out by something that couldn't kill even a regular human.
I cringe extra hard whenever I remember that fucking Catwoman knocked out 3 speedsters once.
@@giovanisatiro30I like to think it’s showcasing their cockiness instead of it being stupid (just let me cope please)
@@giovanisatiro30 I suppose there's always the faint possibility that they were being super predictable (even something moving at light speed can be intercepted if you know where it's going and can move into position ahead of time), although considering it's catwoman of all things, that's quite the absurd logic stretch the author made.
@@norrecvizharan1177 That's how Polnareff beat the Hanged Man in JoJo but somehow a sizeable group of reading impaired "fans" have decided that means Silver Chariot can move at light speed. I'm like "HE LITERALLY SAYS HE JUST PUT HIS SWORD IN THE VERY PREDITABLE STRAIGHT LINE HANGED MAN WOULD BE FORCED TO TRAVEL!"
Same problem with Superman.
Its very hard to write a story revolving around an omnipotent main character.
You would have to go to other avenues of intrigue, like emotional and humor like One Punch Man, or the moral and philosophical aspect like good Superman stories.
Otherwise you just get powercreep like Dragon Ball Z and Goku
One thing very few people seem to realize is that really, the Flash *could* have stopped Superman at any time. He just never really wanted to hurt his friend. DC confirmed a long time ago the Flash's infinite mass punch is capable of outright killing anything short of celestials, and even a lot of them wouldn't exactly be in great shape after eating it.
Batman confirmed ... if Barry Allen dies then all things would cease to exist including Clark. He outran death physically and traveled through multiple universes and dimensions long before he was a justice league member ... then man basically created himself during Flashpoint on the series... and the movie (animated). He's the one person vandal savage was scared of. And he happens to be the only person who keeps his humanity in check at all times ... he's never disassociated from the people he cares for.
Yeah but DC writers also be like nah Superman absorbed the source wall he can't die.
@@legoman81020 After which he proceeded to die (again) anyway. They really need some guidelines to keep the dumb from escalating because of each new writer being so determined to undermine their immediate predecessor.
would he survive making that kind of punch tho
@@ЯАга-я4лhistorically he has, but this is dc so I give it a 33% chance he lives, and a 12% chance he's unharmed
This is why Batman was correct when he developed contingency plans to deal with all members of his team, should they step out of line.
Even superman agreed. The reason the League called him out was because they felt betrayed. Rightfully so, as they were used against them, but that isn't the point. Batman prepares for all outcomes, including one for himself. He leaves the League, not out of betrayle or anger, but out of them not willing to see the danger they can be if they so choose. Superman agreeing with Batman, and giving him a weapon to put him down shows his agreement that Batman was reight to have a plan just in case.
I was wondering why his plan against Flash was so much more extreme - but if he possesses capability to learn this *fast*, that was not only reasonable, but even mild.
Let’s be real, he’s just horribly paranoid and desperately needs a therapist.
@@Alexander59059In this setting, both are true.
@@Alexander59059 Try telling that to an out of control Super man...😑
The flash is such a strange character. He is one of the most known heroes and has one of the most common powers (Super Speed), but the way DC uses it to reveal that just being incomprehensibly fast is enough to make you almost a god is both very interesting and terrifying.
Super speed is just busted all around. It’s simple, which makes it so op. When you can make actions when the enemy cannot, it is pretty simple to just triumph. Someone with super speed can finish the fight before the enemy even realises they are in one.
To be fair, he doesnt ONLY have superspeed.
He is virtually invincible physically until the author dont want him to be.
You cant tell me a punch only half the speed of light doesnt evaporize the Flash's entire arm the moment he makes contact with anything.
The speed force is what makes him super duper busted, and that thing is basically just plot armour like how Superman is so invincible.
But even the Speed force doesnt follow its own rules to make him this busted.
In reality, if he tried to touch Superman, whatever touched will break.
Superman stands still in the face of steel bullets.
You cant tell me a human arm is tougher than steel and metal and metal bullets CRUMBLE in front of Superman.
The Flash could go as fast as he wants with the speedforce protecting him from physics repercussions and his superspeed healing his injuries, but every time he punches Superman at super speed, he gets a shattered and MESSED UP arm while Superman didnt even notice a thing.
The Flash would do nothing to Superman but hurt himself. Best shot he has is run around, find kryptonite, THEN fight Superman.
Without kryptonite aka plot device Flash wouldnt be able to even tickle Superman.
@@Ardeleus Uh, yeah no. I don't think you understand what the Speed Force does. Force in mass times acceleration. So, although Barry doesn't have a lot of mass, his mind blowing speed makes it so he can put out tremendous amounts of force. In the real world, thanks to Newton's third law of motion, Flash would also feel that tremendous force and it would obliterate him. However, the Speed Force makes it so he doesn't feel his own speed. So to him, he'd only feel the same amount of force as if he punched Superman at regular speed. Which wouldn't hurt very much. This is also why he can use superspeed in the rain but bullets still hurt him.
@@Ardeleusno..
As any tabletop player will easily tell you, having better action economy than your enemy is almost always broken. It doesn't matter if an enemy can kill you in two hits and tank fifteen hits from you if you can hit him sixteen times before he can hit you twice.
People like to forget that flash is or rather can be faster than time itself
Same as superman likes to forget this. Flash is playing at half speed. The other half is used to think
Not only that but, Flash is a character who's dealt with time travel on various occasions. He knows firsthand how critical one decision effects entire outcomes. In a game like chess, where every move counts, this perfectly represents Flash's psyche.
This scene makes me want to read the comics. At first, I was turned off by evil Superman. But the idea that the Fastest Man Alive understands the consequences of rulership (same as the consequences of abject criminality) because he can simultaneously simulate multiple outcomes is simply incredible. And it's rare to have such insight in a work of fiction. Usually, the writers are pushing for more Communism, not less.
Has all the time in the world to look up what a slippery slope fallacy is but committed it nevertheless, the ridiculousness of what he said can be shown in opposite terms: "If you won't let people have nuclear bombs you're going to kill people who don't recycle too aren't you?!"
@@V01DIORE He saw that Superman was going down a dark path. Superman wanted to keep humanity safe to an extreme degree. The issue was that Superman only mentioned what directly kills people by violence but that doesnt keep people safe because people can still use other weapons or even drugs.
Superman only used the extreme example of getting rid of all guns because it was the best example he could use to convince someone. Violence against innocent people. No one wants that. But there is far more nuance to it and that is what Flash brought to the table. The aspect of Freedom. The Freedom to choose to live the way you wish to live while still being a decent human being.
Superman getting rid of all guns even all nuclear armaments wouldnt have done any good. It would have made people resent him as a dictator.
Also: Talking about Fallacies is cringe when you dont understand a single thing about the topic thats being talked about. Stop trying to sound smart and start using your brain.
@@Icemario87 Its 100% worth a read, you are gonna enjoy it. Superman is as you can probably see here, turning towards a dark path. I dont wanna spoil too much but lets just say that this is the Batman V Superman we always wanted just not neccesarily as perfect as it could have been on normal terms.
0:47 "display at flash speed" the hz on that moniter must be crazy
Gotta measure that bad boy in MHz
My best guess would be that it basically skips like half the pixels or something to let him fill the rest in himself to make it less inefficient by taking advantage of all his extra processing speed.
@@eaglest0554technically CRTs can display pixels as soon as they come it. But that is still a lot of light.
CRTs are the goatssss@@wumi2419
@@zeltech-alpha Hell no, you'd need to use GHz
A small detail you didn't point out.
At first, Superman is saying checkmate, as he is winning the game, but also- at least for now- winning the argument. But once Flash starts saying checkmate, it's because he's debunking Superman's points and winning the game, and with increasing speed.
It's a smart way to show how smoothly the dialogue flows as until you read the whole conversation and see where it's leading, you just assume that every "checkmate" is the end of a game. But as you point out, checkmate isn't for the game. It's for the argument.
I mean it is for the game that they're actually saying it, but it has the second deeper meaning of the conversation. The checkmate is the end of the game, but you also know the whole time that they also mean the argument, and flash keeps winning more and more as superman gets more and more off his game
@@apersonwhomayormaynotexist9868You're exactly right! He eventually starts winning the games AND the conversation.
And each game humbles Superman ever further because it goes to show him that even though he's confident about a certain situation (he asks Flash if he knows how to play chess, indicating he had some level of skill himself) he's eventually shown that he may still lack the foresight needed to win both the games and the reasoning behind borderline dictatorship.
Its like preschooler level of deduction. If you are someone that needs it to be pointed out for you, then I guess it is what it is.
In that case wouldn’t it be check? Checkmate is used when you actually mated the king. They’re playing multiple games not one
@@lesterivan282862 I see what you’re saying, but I’m also assuming that they’re playing so fast that, everytime one of them is in check, the next move gets predicted and checkmates the king. Essentially, they’re playing so fast that check is just an irrelevant part of the game at that point bc you’re GONNA get checkmated playing at their level.
Flash is definitely one of my favorite Heroes. Right up there with Red Hood, Batman, Iron Man, Dr Doom, Superman, Black Widow, Spider-Man and Thor
Unfortunately this new flash is nerfed and we won't ever get this comic book version of the flash
A well balanced list, as all things should be.....wait a minute, where's Green Arrow?
Yeah flash is incredible, too bad writers hate making him look good
Daring today, aren’t we?
It's too bad that when writers come up with superheroes, they don't put an initial limiter in their superpower, (I know Flash has a high calorie maintenance, but that is rarely talked about, and in the TV show they just gave him a big appetite) and in the latest movie he ate a burrito and was full. They gotta give them more limits so that they don't need to dumb them down in order to nerf them. Like in the latest animated movie where he got gassed. Like, cmon, he can think at super speed! (if not light speed as mentioned in the comics)
I think this would have gone better in the movie than playing against Mr. Terrific but they killed off flash in that movie.
just saw a clip of that scene earlier, and i was confused because i remembered the same thing playing out with flash.
This movie felt more like half justice lord and half injustice with neither side being good.
Mostly because Flash dying is terrible for Injustices story. His whole thing was he was the skeptical one.
What movie is this?
@@kahnkretefpv7594injustice
The whole movie was a 70 minute mess.
Speedrunning the slippery slope fallacy
Erm checkmate liberal☝️🤓
Esp. since the recycling one is ludicrous (recycling is mostly a scam), and there's no need for them to imprison people for any of these
mods, he's littering, end his bloodlines.
💀
Flash is probably one of the smartest people alive. Or at least he should be. He has something that no one else has. Time. Time to think. Time to read. Time to internalize and turn learning into patterns and conceptualize. It just doesn’t seem like it to us because he does it so fast.
Except his entire argument is just the slippery slope fallacy
@@CandleWisp How is it a fallacy? The first couple of extrapolations seem perfectly reasonable.
Idk all this showed me is you can give someo people unlimited time to think and they’ll still end up anabsolutist libertarian
@@Jagar_Tharn same logic: You want to ban murder? What’s next ban guns? Then what kill all people who don’t recycle?
Boom Air right argument to make murder legal. Or a slippery slope fallacy
@@chaosjoey123 Then again, if you could _personally_ interdict _any_ human action on Earth because you move at the speed of light, it might be a reasonable position to take. The Flash sees human government as being pointlessly slow and irrelevant. He _is_ the de facto government.
I love how cocky Barry is around evil Clark. I mean what’s Clark really gonna do, touch him? Sure. Clark could kill Barry with a punch, if he can land one.
Thats the easy part for Superman though 😊 touch
If Barry doesn’t want to be touched he won’t be only Wally and reverse flash are the exception
@@nathanalexandre9043Barry can outrun Superman in a race. He's done it, in fact.
@@psymar"those races were for charity Clark"
@@nathanalexandre9043 The Flash can travel so fast he can go back in time, Superman wouldn’t be able to even graze him
Something that nobody every really tries to touch on is that people who move/think at these absolute insane speeds have (to them) a lot of time to think as the world around them slowly catches up to what they're doing. I like this interpretation of the two of them playing chess at high speeds, and having a conversation at the same speed, spending more time thinking in between each statement than what we can perceive because there's nothing else to do while they wait for the words to be said, not spoken.
I'm convinced within seconds of the Flash receiving his power, he became so insane from the slowness of everything that he becomes this incorruptible person we see in the comics.
Aint no way he hasnt had superspeed mental breakdowns before from how immensely fast and slow everything is to him.
It’s actually shown in the DCAU (albeit, with Wally instead of Barry) that his greatest fear, his greatest nightmare, and a fate that he almost suffered at one point in the series, is going so fast that time is at a standstill for him. Everyone else frozen in time from his perspective while he is invisible to them, a dead world where time does not move for the rest of his life.
It was established in the earliest Flash comics that Barry was perpetually, chronically, pathologically tardy. He gained superspeed and Barry is still late to everything. When he works he gets so caught up in what he is doing that he loses all track of time. Sure he can run around the world in under a second, that doesn't help when he was meant to meet Iris for dinner 20 minutes ago three blocks away.
It is also often the case that his mind is only as fast as his body. Operating at normal speeds he has no better reaction times than the rest of us.
He isn't red riot...
Can't he "turn off" his superspeed?
Quicksilver from Marvel Comics actually deals with this in a therapy session in X-Factor Vol 1 #87.
Personally, I think I like the film's way of portraying this scene a lot. It was with Mr. Terrific instead of the flash, and instead of several games it was only one, with the points of the topic of conversation being analogous with checks rather than mates. I like the change to checks, because it implies that the argument isn't settled just because you made a point that seems reasonable, just like how you don't win at chess just because you made a check. Only when Superman fails to make a reasonable argument back does Mr. Terrific declare mate. Regardless, this is amazing writing on either part. Hats off to the Injustice crew.
Agreed. I only saw the clip like 2 months ago of the chess match, but i liked it better.
I always saw chess matches between two people, as if they were debates. And as they take piece after piece putting each other into check, slowly holes are being poked into their logic, as well as points being made when putting someone into check, as the king is being protected or retreating. Superman finding that his idea is fallible and only thinking short-term, with his king being pushed further into a corner and safe, from something that's opposing what he wants to work towards. everything can be said with just one game.
I think it just works better since Mr T is basically a super genius. The Flash might be able to think faster technically, but that wouldn't imply a greater reasoning skill. Thinking fast doesn't necessarily mean thinking right, you csn have systematic flaws in your reasoning that are minor enough at any given time so as to never be fixed unless you explicitly introspect to fix them.
Mr T had a reserved, educated, almost dissociated personality that fits these sorts of conceptual arguments a lot better than "I think real fast like". He knew supes wasn't going to take no for an answer, and he knew he couldn't stop him, so it was almost a soft self sacrifice for him, whereas supes really has no way to deal with flash. Plus, its not really skillfull if you win at a gane of chess because you have 5 days to plan a move and your opponent has a minute.
@@felixjohnson3874 read this 3 times over, and yeah you're right!
what's even more interesting is that if you think about it, Mr. T is, kind of veteran hero/genius, or at least that's how he's come across to me. this movie was my introduction to him. the way he talks about it all and describes every problem with Superman's logic, says that he asked himself that question a long time ago. or at least came to that conclusion really quickly. superman is such an innocent character at times, it's easy to forget, come to think of it.
I only know the movie adaptation but seeing this I feel Mr terrific was a better fit
There's something lost by having it be a single game though. The way the comic does it adds two things. 1. Having Superman win the first game shows Flash's rapid progress in being able to overcome Superman at a game Superman initially had an advantage in. 2. Multiple games means Superman gets to start over from the beginning and try different approaches, so having Flash continue to beat him implies that no matter which alternative approach Superman takes, Flash will still win.
One of my favorite Flash scenes is in _Kingdom Come._ He's in super speed all the time, invisible, everywhere, fixing every wrong in the city before it can even happen. Not even a scene as much as just a couple panels, but think of the implications.
On the one hand, there can be no crime, no traffic accidents, you fumble a sack of groceries and he catches it for you, literally nothing can go wrong. There will never be a school shooting, never a single baggie of crack in your community. He can probably even make the trains run on time every time, stop dangerous weather, and restore power in a millisecond if there's an outage. Sounds like paradise.
On the other hand, Flash is watching you pee. No matter where you are or what you're doing, Flash is there. Flash knows what brand of laundry detergent you buy. He knows your browser history, because gotta make sure there's nothing illicit. He knows every off-color joke you ever told at the water cooler, whether it was reported to HR, and whether they issued a warning. He knows the last time you had sex, with whom, for how long, AND, no matter how enthusiastic your partner might have seemed, Flash knows what they said to their friends about it later and if it's negative enough he just might decide you're guilty of something and then there's nowhere you can hide because he's literally everywhere at every moment........it's a perfect nightmare if you think about it. Even seemingly harmless stuff like catching every stumbling toddler is worrisome. Toddlers need to fall, it's how they learn. And you're relying on Flash to stay good, to mostly leave people alone. What if he decides alcohol causes too much trouble? Well, there just won't be any anymore. Gun ownership? Yeah, that's gone. What if he decides that microexpression on your face means you're going to commit a crime, and he simply takes you to prison before you have an opportunity? What if he decides mean words are no longer allowed, and you have six hundred layers of duct tape over your mouth midsentence? And that's without getting nasty. There's nothing he can't do to you. No lightspeed punch required. He already has all the time in the world and there is literally no way to ever hold him accountable.
You're so right.
Yeah that's worse than Injustice superman by a huge margin. It's basically doing what supes does but perfectly. Keeping everyone safe but at the cost of everyone's privacy and freedom and it's all decided by one man who's essentially a godlike dictator. But this one you can't even see and as soon as you express any hope of resistance he immediately catches you. Nightmare Scenario.
"On the other hand, flash is watching you pee" hit me like a fucking bag of bricks holy shit
This is like one of the most impressive comments I've ever read on youtube
Wrong because if he were everywhere then he'd be trapped as a cameo only 😊 try again.
Superman had the right idea but he missed the point, like Alcohol Prohibition people will still find ways to make guns, the better idea would be subconsciously influence people into having crippling fear of violence and war, get into their heads and they will stop using guns
Or remove the need to resort to violence.
To be fair it's fucking superman like sure people are going to rebel but he puts an end to that quick as we saw in with that joker worshiper group
@@cyberklashnikov3062 Thats not the point, superman doesn't care about the guns being turned on him, its turned on others thats the issue. Also still missing the grander point that eliminating the threat is not solving the issue.
Honestly, not the same thing. It's a lot easier to make shitty alcohol than to make any kind of gun, especially if these two also terminate all production of gunpowder and bullets / shells. And any black market operation would be quickly shut down by a dude who can lobotomize people from outer fkin space. This was probably the author's commentary on the real world issue of guns in the US or something, but it really doesn't work when applied to DC or Marvel.
@@wanderingmercurymarauder761 Was gonna make this point. Here in America there's a constant debate on gun laws and gun safety, but the fact is, no matter how hard it is to obtain a weapon, it's going to be aquired by those who wish to use it. Instead of gun laws and gun safety, we should be looking at what causes people to use said weapons instead. Like, bullying can lead to someone shooting up a school, so obviously bullying should be the priority not guns.
As someone who did LD for a couple years I love the structure of flash’s argument. Like if you look at the begging to the end it’s a slippery slope (the fallacy) and an obvious one at that. By building in decreasing severity from point a to b it is still a slippery slope, but not one that devalues his argument. It strengthens it by pointing out how fast Superman’s idea could turn into something far more general in scope without making a huge leap. I love it.
whats LD?
@@blazingultra8328 Lincoln Douglas. It’s a type of debate styled after the presidential debates between Lincoln and Douglas.
So here's the thing most people don't understand about the slippery slope fallacy it is only a fallacy when it can be assumed people will stop it at a reasonable point before it gets out of hand what Clark is purposing has no reasonable end point therefore to claim a slippery slope is not a fallacy
It is not a slippery slope. If your reason for getting rid of guns is it will save lives then it logically follows that you should be in favor of getting rid of things that cost lives. Slippery slope is for when the next step in the argument doesn’t logically follow, that’s why it is a logical fallacy.
If you wanted to get rid of guns let’s say because people shouldnt be allowed to kill other from across a room(it’s a bad argument but let’s say that was the argument) then it would be a slippery slope to say you also wanted to get rid of car. It might not be a slippery slope to say you wanted to get rid of cigarettes though because of second hand smoke, unless your argument is it’s only bad when it’s instant or quick death.
@@huntermarquette3484 fair point
There's a few things to note here:
1. It isn't only that Barry can think (and move) faster than Kal-El, but he's also smarter. Clark is a farmboy where Allan is a distinguished scientist.
Putting that into simpler terms for the game, Clark might think 100 moves ahead to keep up with his super speed, but Barry is playing all those 100 games simultaneously while thinking 100 moves ahead each.
2. Another interpretation of the checkmates would be to consider that Barry could have always won and never had to get better. Rather, if you comsider who wins and how fast it happens, you can see that Clark starts in control, but the crazier Barry's suggestions for future tasks, the quicker he wins...
Almost as if Barry's words are there to convey how crazy their antics will become while hos wons are there to convey how they will lose focus and control of the situation faster and faster with every new ambition.
Clark is not a farmboy. He's an accomplished journalist who grew up in a farm and at the same time cultivated the extraterrestrial heritage left to him by one of the greatest scientists of his home planet.
@@suleymanbabak1973 I was talking about mindset. Even Loise Lane calls him "Smallville" because he has a simplistic view on the world (which is what makes him a great paragon) leading him to believe that if we take the complications out of the world, then people can live in peace. You see it here and in the Justice Lords. You can also see this in how he treats Darkseid, as so often this becomes the flaw to Superman's undoing.
Meanwhile Barry is a scientist focused on quantum equations. Meaning he is predisposed to thinking about the complexity of what-ifs and alternate situations. Adding super speed thinking, he can do this rather quickly, but the edge in this battle of whits is how the mindset blinds Clark to how far he'll have to go where Barry realizes right out the gate that people are far more complex than a problem one man can solve.
@@Maninawig Well, Superman enslaves the world in Injustice with his thinking, reigning in criminality despite it being a dictatorship with a total surveillance and police state. It's probably not all bad for your average person as it seems like there isn't really any purpose other than to just exist since the JL controls everything and are effectively gods.
Meanwhile, the Flash, while being this guy who's capable of seeing all of these outcomes, fucks up the entire universe by doing the one thing he shouldn't out of an entirely selfish desire despite warnings and knowing better.
Clark isn't stupid. Lois calling him "Smallville" is based on his persona early on that she grew accustomed to and is nickname at first, then a reminder later on of his roots.
Having high processing speed =/= intelligence. Flash has high intelligence and the fact that he can think fast just makes it easier for him to perform complex calculations quicker but it doesn't actually make him smarter.
In terms of intellect, it goes Lex Luthor/Brianiac, Batman, Superman, Mr. Terrific, Barry Allen,
I think the increasing frequency of the checkmates actually represents the Flash getting into Superman’s head, causing him to think less about chess and more about what Flash is saying
The philosophy is just a strategy to win chess. Flash is such a genius.
2:47 Bro is casting a Domain Expansion
Writer: It took me decades to write all this books, for 32years have i been creating a immersive series with twists and plot, character all around i made 20 of...
Barry: All done, Took me 10 seconds to read them all, Also there are some plot holes you need to fix
Writer: * eye twitches *
Kind of frightening that he is fast physically and mentally like that time superman studied a entire library for science and had to create something within a minute
I don't think the flash would be the kind of person to invalidate a person life like that if he respected that man at all
@@Thepreacher_1 I know but it was a joke, Just pointing out how he can learn something in a minute which would take others years
same dude could build a whole ass library of alexandria and fill it with personally written books within at max a week and I say a week only because to fill a library like that would take more then 1,000,000+ books, which is to say that he could do something even worse to give that writer conniptions and mental breakdowns for a lifetime
“Holy crap. Will you be my editor, Flash?”
Never knew flash was this wise 💀
He had common sense. Something y oud think clark would have picked up by now.
We are talking about same guy who can have same thought of normal person worth of 2 months condensed into 1 second
It's more so Flash is the most like Superman as both are the most "regular joe" people when not superheroes.
Barry is urban middle class while Clark rural middle class and a big thing about that is how both cultures solve problems. Rural farmboys like Clark are taught to treat problems as "no one else is gonna fix it/can fix it. So I need to do it myself"
City Boy Barry is taught that the community work to solve the problem as its naturally bound to affect more people.
Both have their issues when put on a larger scale. Clark doesn't take the communitys emotions into enough consideration while Barry can ironically take too long to solve a complicated problem.
Doesn't help the speed force allows users to think at super speed too so Barry cam quite literally outthink superman
"wise" using a slippery slope fallacy... the ridiculousness of what he said can be shown in opposite terms: "If you won't let people have nuclear bombs you're going to kill people who don't recycle too aren't you?!"
@@V01DIORE The slippery slope is not a fallacy. May I remind y ou of civil unions?
I believe that Flash's logic is flawed too, you can think of a lot of possibilities, but not ALL of them. People tend to be surprisingly predictable, but also unpredictable, you'll never know in theory what something will do to someone, unless you actually do it.
That's only half true.
If you tell someone, "don't think of a pink elephant," You can accurately predict that either A. They will think of a pink elephant, B. They will resist thinking of a pink elephant, or C. They are incapable of thinking of a pink elephant.
In case A, you affected their thoughts. In case B, you affected their thoughts. In case C, they have no thoughts.
Combine this with repetition and now you understand Bernaysian Propaganda.
"Theory only takes you so far"
The point Flash is trying to make is that trying to be the benevolent "solution" to all of society's problems is a fool's errand.
There is always another problem. Always another crisis. Always another issue.
Meanwhile, the root causes for the problems remain unsolved.
Why do people kill eachother in the first place? Why do people partake in well-documented poison? Why do people act carelessly?
Simply removing the symptoms does not solve the problem, and society will be worse off for it.
The logic is flawed because its quite literally a logical fallacy. The ol slippery slope fallacy, can be shown stupid in opposite terms: "If you won't let people have nuclear bombs you're going to kill people who don't recycle too aren't you?!"
The Flash is just playing out Superman's slippery slope. Where infringements on people's rights get more and more extreme as the logic plays out. There's a reason the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. As Clark keeps seeking his Utopia with greater fervor, the atrocities grow, the fallout of said atrocities only strengthening Superman's resolve. We've seen this happen in Italy under Mussolini, Germany under Hitler, basically every tyrannical dictatorship ever. Heck, we see it happening to Canada and the USA too.
I love how flash was trying to make a point but superman just decided to run with all his advice
Flash just enables a slippery slope fallacy
one thing not mentioned on the "Checkmate checkmate checkmate" is that this can also be seen as the 3-space rule in chess - aka repeating the same move 3 times in a row without anyone being able to do anything else because one party is constandly put in check but not checkmate = a draw , Superman is not saying anything after the triple checkmate , but just stares back at barry , showing clearly that the words he is speaking have more meaning then his ego is willing to admit
I mean thats probably what it's meant to protray but logically its utterly unsound. A slippery slope fallacy flash committed, the ridiculousness of what flash said can be shown in opposite terms: "If you won't let people have nuclear bombs you're going to kill people who don't recycle too aren't you?!"
@@V01DIORE Flash was just using Superman’s reasoning and showing him that it’s flawed. Superman wants to eliminate everything that is dangerous or a risk to people but there are many things that the only risk they carry is because we choose to keep doing them(i.e. smoking) so eventually Superman would have to take away free will.
Superman's own logic will inevitably fall into the same logic trap that every artificial intelligence gone bad runs into. In order to eliminate all the dangers of lif you have to eliminate the most dangerous thing of all...life itself.@@Atom_of_pluto
@@Atom_of_pluto Yeah not at all the comic author putting in his political agenda on gun control with a slippery slope fallacy. I suppose he could literally write superman killing people for not recycling to try make the logic stand but eh.
@@V01DIORE The slippery slope is only a fallacy when improperly utilized; it's not inherently a fallacy. With that being said, Superman did become a dictator in the injustice universe, so flash was completely right in assuming his desire to help would end restricting peoples' rights.
I think another reason he got to checkmate Clark so many times is because Clark was thinking about what he was saying more and more and realising its true.
Poor writing but I don't expect comic writers to great at logic... flash has all the time in the world to look up what a slippery slope fallacy is but committed it nevertheless, the ridiculousness of what he said can be shown in opposite terms: "If you won't let people have nuclear bombs you're going to kill people who don't recycle too aren't you?!"
@@V01DIORE thats not what his argument is. but you trying to show how its a "slippery slope" has only caused you to strawman his argument
@@boberto930 If that's not a good example of his argument then why aside from nuclear bombs being replaced with guns is it literally his argument? I just changed it to a reverse slippery slope fallacy including nuclear bombs to show you how nonsensical it is logically. But nice of you to strawman my argument with an unexplained accusation of strawmaning itself in irony.
@@V01DIORE "why aside from nuclear bombs being replaced with guns is it literally his argument?" that isnt his argument tho. " But nice of you to strawman my argument with the accusation mine is the strawman" you dont even know what a strawman is
@@boberto930 Did you even watch the video? Flash went from saying about banning guns, alcohol and smoking to super man killing people for not recycling, literally a slippery slope fallacy, or are we commenting on different videos? Strawman: "an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument." Do you? By falsely asserting my argument is a strawman to more easily defeat it when it's not is literally strawmanning in of itself lmao.
I always find this funny cause Flash is depicted as beating supermans point,
But its never addressed,
And even in trying to dismiss it, banning cigarettes is also a objective good, if you speed enough you do get imprisoned, and if you leave your dog unleashed your actively risking peoples lives,
And then it jumps to Killing people who don’t recycle, trying to through a slippery slope fallacy say that removing all guns means you want to kill everyone who doesn’t recycle,
And there is no reason to think this, even disregarding recycling is basically a myth,
Removing Guns will cause drastically less gun violence, even if some people still have guns, they’re fewer,
And most people using guns impropely aren’t “criminals” its people who were law abiding before hand and had too bad of a day,
It is a kid who was bullied, a father who lost their daughter,
It is not a abstract group of evil criminals,
Additionally Banning cigarettes would save lives yes, and the biggest issue would be providing services to help ween addicts off of it,
But what I find more intriguing is it is kind of implying its impossible or immoral to, or that guns are addictive,
Then Speeding, which similarly to recycling if we ignore our speed limits and road laws are really poorly made,
How is speeding related to gun violence? Is it because its second to guns in child and teen mortality?
And speeding is already illegal, at this point we’ve already jumped from legal to illegal things,
Especially leaving dangerous dogs unleashed, which generally would mean the dog had already bit once, maybe yeah we should jail those people, cause the alternative is euthanizing the dog?
And then suddenly we’re killing people who don’t recycle?
The logic makes no sense, it only serves as a “short, quipy and wrong” argument, it makes the viewer think they’re right because its quipy and short even if it is fundamentally wrong or a fallacy
The slippery slope argument it’s great
Love the general premise of the scene but as someone who doesn't live in the USA the clear pro-gun propoganda is super jarring lol. When every other country on the planet has figured out how to curb gun violence its hard to see Supes as in the wrong here
Indeed, extremely jarring
Seen plenty of horrible pro gun arguments elsewhere as well.
I don't really see how it's pro gun. Flash just said that if they take the guns, people will hate them. He never said it wouldn't save lives (in fact he said that it most likely would), he just said that it wasn't his choice to make, and that they don't know what the ramifications of that decision could be
The crazy thing is you don't even realize that his argument isn't really about guns, but freedom of choice for humans. All he's doing is explaining the slippery slope fallacy and applying it to what Superman is saying. But because you're so anti-gun all you can see is "he wrong, gun bad", without even realizing you're exactly the person injustice superman (or any dictator) wants in their empire, because your own gov has already convinced you to give up freedoms willingly. And not only have they convinced you of that, but they've convinced you it's a good thing as well to give up your ability to defend yourself.
It’s not propaganda. We’re real people offering real points of view. I have to say I find it odd that someone who lives in a country without gun ownership would think they’re the expert on firearms and how the subject should be handled. You literally have no basis upon which to form a rational opinion.
Superman is All American 😂 who cares what you think?
What part of the world? The part that supports genocide in Palestine or the ones on the verge of WW3 because a foreign nation invaded Ukraine? If it wasn’t for American guns there would’ve been 6 world wars by now.
The fact that the writers treat this fallacy as some big gotcha moment for the Flash is a perfect representation of the quality of writing in this story.
I love how you can watch Flash change his tactic. He starts off trying to appeal to reputation, Superman has been showed in many iterations to genuinely care what the public thinks of him. But this Superman has moved past that, he’s willing to accept being hated if it means doing what he believes is right. So Flash changes course, pointing out the hypocrisy at the core of this Superman’s argument, that even though his goal could be justified, Superman’s changed so much that it will not stop there
I feel like Flash is making a lot of assumptions that a Superman that is more proactive about catching bad guys is destined to turn evil. While the definition "bad guys" might be dubious as long as Superman isn't violating any major red lines such as killing people at will, overthrowing world leaders, private prisons, and etc I don't think supporting Lord Superman is a bad thing when he's clearly trying to work through his negative feelings in a seemingly positive manner.
this is why i want the flash’s powers
one thing i'd like to point out is how, everytime the flash mentions somenthing, he gets increasingly more extreme
take away(guns)-imprison-kill
because that IS what would happen
Haven't read the comics, but I almost think that the checkmates aren't Flash showing an ability but Superman losing focus. I think that Flash's comments are starting to reach Superman, the real Superman, and he's pondering the ethics. Thinking about the course of thought because it makes sense, and thus no longer thinking ahead about which pawn to move 10 seconds from 0.1 seconds from now.
Honestly, it seems like it starts with Superman flexing that his ability is superior to Flash and he shouldn't question. But it transitions. Flash seems to agree with Superman but starts to point out the flaws, slowly. Starting on very common ground and then working to what we mortals would view as an absurd take to an argument or debate (what about peoples dogs, though its a creature of its own free will). But everything honestly goes that deep and far, as long as we're willing to see it for what it is.
I believe in animated version, Mr. Terrific asked the question instead m
Because in the show Flash killed by Joker just as Metropolis was bombed
Flash was a good choice in comics as he’s both the heart of the team, and is actually a smart person being a scientist enhanced by super speed
While without Flash, in show Mr. Terrific being a genius, took an analytical approach explaining where Injustice Superman’s path would lead and won’t support it
It’s a shame they killed off Flash, as he would have added a moral compass as the heart of the team, in this scent, although Mr. Terrific wasn’t a bad choice to take the role
Because Flash ain't as fast in the thinking department as people believe
Another thing i find very cool about this scene is the way they represent the two sides of the argument through - specifically - an extremely fast game of chess. Superman and the flash, in this case, are physically making moves at around the same speed. The difference-maker, however, which allows Flash to win over and over again (once he has realized the way superman both plays chess and thinks about the world), is that flash is able to literally *think* faster, while superman just keeps up the appearance of moving at the same speed. He is arguing with flash, sure. But even efter doing literal seconds of research, Barry is just operating on a different level than him. Hopefully this rambling makes sense lol
1:17 “Just because you can do something, doesn’t mean you should…” starting to sound familiar.
I wonder if Flash is the Peter Parker in the DC Universe…
He basically is. Good natured, sees the good in people, always has a lighthearted quip, always holds back, very smart, doesn't want to hurt anyone, willing to stand alone in the name of good, and always trying to help people, even if they don't deserve it.
They're still different characters, but they're very similar in a lot of ways, although I'd say Peter is the Flash of marvel because DC came first.
I never thought Flash humbled him in quite the way most think. Rather he gave a hypothetical to see how Superman would behave, but Superman didn't even have the wherewithal to begin defending his position, so far gone, or at least not thinking is he. Had he been in his right mind he would have pointed out no one walks into a school, lights up a smoke, and kills 5 people and then themselves with that smoke alone, Litterers are already adequately fined for their crime appropriately and petty littering is not what causes Earth's issues. So on and so forth with the other examples.
The actual conversation should have been much longer and more thought out between them, but superman stumbles at the first hurdle signifying to the reader he's not putting the appropriate thought into his position.
With how this conversation was going, it sounded like Flash was against Superman, but Flash ended up joining the regime.
Barry really should've been on team Batman since the beginning. I know he and Clark are pals, but at the most they're racing buddies. Barry and Bruce understand each other on a level that most others can't. And personally, if Bruce didn't have Clark, I believe Barry would be his best friend.
I think it does make sense Barry being team superman in the beginning
Could you imagine the flash turning on superman as one of his villiains mirror master is threatening what little family superman has left?
Plus after that it kinda cements that the justice league will not respect governments as those governments will threaten innocents to protect their power
But later on??? It's weird one where flash's morality would have him leave but his loyalty to his friends would have him stay
the slippery slop argument overlayed on the flash getting super sonic checkamates in space is the funniest thing ever
And they decided to kill Flash in the animated movie, that too in a ridiculous way.
Good thing is the chess scene was still kept in the movie with Mr Terrific playing against Superman. Though Superman after losing, imprisons Mr T.
Wait so the moral of the story is that flash thinks we shouldn't ban cigarettes?
I think the moral of the story is that we shouldn't ban human autonomy and free will, just crime.
Gun crime is already illegal. Do something about the evil people with guns, not the good ones with them.
There is a bad correlation, gun kills tend to be intentional while car kills are accidental, the smoking is more equivalent but with a small but crucial difference, we might intellectually know it kills, but smokers tend to not understand it in the unconscious way, like when we eat something we know it can lead to problems, we intellectually know the consequences but haven't internalized it. When my grandma internalized she was doing harm to her family by smoking she stopped, no nicotine patch, nothing to replace it, she just stopped. Unintended consequences are way different than conscious ones, I can and have defended myself against people trying to rob me, but that is because I am not in the US, criminals are very unlikely to have guns because the population as a whole is very unlikely to have a gun, we can, but we don't fetishize guns.
Barry pointed out that, if Clark let himself take away one thing that hurts people, he might as well take everything away. If he lets himself start, he may never stop until he realizes the only safe thing for people is death.
Unfortunately this new flash is nerfed and we won't ever get this comic book version of the flash
Plus the live action version of flash is a HUGE se x offe nder. So you know... no vetting rid of him any time soon. Y ou know how hollywood protecte their own.
his death in the animated film of injustice tho was so pathetic 😭😭
Anyone who's had a basic critical thinking class in college can see that Flash's arguments don't quite hold water. His arguments rely on the 'slippery slope' fallacy, which doesn't exactly scream smart thinking.
You call it a fallacy, but we’re seeing it play out in real time in the modern world.
Every fallacy has prerequisites that have to be met to invalidate them. The appeal to authority fallacy fails when the authority is in fact the guy who did the experiment and has the facts. The no true scotsman fallacy fails when the reason they aren't a true scotsman is because they're a little japanese girl. The slippery slope argument fails when you're boiling the frog. If you want the scotsman fallacy to apply, you have prove them a male scottish national. If you want the appeal to authority fallacy to apply, you've got to show they haven't done their homework. And if you want the slippery slope fallacy to apply, you've got to install some brakes on the rape train and prove they work.
Take away the guns…
Says the invincible space alien who has eyesight better than a stereo microscope, all he does is whoop minorities a$$3$ instead of cleaning up the ocean or freezing the water above the coral reefs or freezing the ice caps or something. Nah he didn’t use his super intellect and super speed to become the worlds greatest doctor or scientist since he can literally see microscopic cells, tumors and the tiny white blood cells in your veins, he can even see nuclear fusion inside our very sun from the comfort of his porch.
Would have been a neat touch for the chessboard to look ancient and degraded by the end. Not destroyed, both of them know how to be gentle, just worn enough to show the thousands of games they just played
Flash comparing numbers instead of percentages here, real smart.
Clark: i lost everything and so im doing what's best.
And yet you're taking everything from everyone else. Creating thousands of you daily.
This is just a slippery slope fallacy. If you want to argue on the merits of taking away guns, you argue that.
Why is it okay for nicotine to be legal, but not heroin? Like you can do this with anything, it doesnt make you smart, it just makes you cynical
If this was beyond the purpose of arguing against banning guns, then either the comic needs to go a littke further with that, or this video didnt properly articulate what happened in the comic prior.
Because they’re tyrants 😂
They were never heroes, you ever see a comic where Aquaman cleans up floating condoms in the ocean?
Okay I’m sorry but a speeder and a speedster are not the same thing and it’s tweaking me out😅 2:25
Get rid of cigarettes & guns.
Its interesting how they replaced the Flash with Mr Terrific in the Injustice Animated movie, giving the same points as Flash did due to Mr Terrific being insanely smart.
That's the worst slippery slope argument I've ever seen. A lot of countries have a gunless citizenry and we have a lot less violence and death than for example the US.
You also have fewer rights enjoyed by the people.
Clark forget he is Illegal alien.
Well I mean.... im sure the kents got him a US citizenship... they're farmers not rednecks
Nope. He was legally adopted by two natural born citizens. That makes him a citizen as well.
@@williambarnes5023He’s a Kansas boy against firearms…
His United States citizenship has been revoked. That’s not what all American means 😂
I dont actually interested in superhero comics, but this is, high value chapter 100%
They should've been saying check instead of checkmate unless they were playing a new game after everytime they said checkmate
The unexplained sudden switch from imprisoning people to killing them didn't make sense.The illogical step would undo any progress in changing Superman's mind by reasoning. Even worse, the argument against gun control has been proved false in many countries outside the US, where guns are controlled enough that gun violence is rare, without tyranny.
i appreciate your ability to deduce so much about the characters and the world without having to divulge into the entirety of the story. It's very impressive that you can gather so much information from just a single interaction.
in the animation version, they made mr.terrific do this scene instead, which is a bit upsetting but since flash had died i’m not too mad. I’m just glad it was kept at all.
Deaths by firearms on average day: 91. Deaths by alcohol on average day: 241. Deaths by cigarettes on average day: 1,315. Where does it stop?
Death by hamburger on average day: 1800. Death by abortion on average day: 2000. Death by your parents chose to have sex in the first place: 100%.
“Nothing can stop su- Alfred what are you doing here?”
Some of them go along because it's Superman
And then there's Wonder Woman who deliberately stokes his fears
Barry said like 2 based things and then started a strawman argument of really stupid outlandish points
The animated film version of the scene had Superman play chess with Mr. Terrific instead of Flash, at a normal pace. Though Mr. Terrific had the same speech as Flash, yet it still fits perfectly since he's one of the smartest heroes around.
To be honest, Barry makes really shitty arguments here. He presents banning smoking as something completely unreasonable, but we already do that with other drugs. It's not unreasonable to ban smoking. And while we don't usually imprison people for doing it, speeding in a car is illegal, you're not allowed to do that.
What Flash is basically saying is that outlawing guns would lead to giving people who don't recycle the death penalty. It's a slippery slope. Superman can make guns illegal, but not make recycling mandatory under threat of death. Flash shifts the discussion from "banning harmful stuff" to "punishing petty crimes" and I really don't get how anyone is convinced by his speech
Thank you!
I like this video. The fact that there is also some real life points that have been made without making it entirely political. I think part of the lesson here is that not only is idealism sometimes unrealistic, but is also sometimes toxic. It also points out how some people who try to create the ideal society will stop at nothing to get what they want. I used to believe ideals can get you far, and they can, but those ideals have to be realistic. Banning all guns (especially in America) is unrealistic. Banning smoking and the production of cigarettes is unrealistic. Banning cars that go too fast or aren't safe enough is unrealistic. Forcing everyone to recycle is unrealistic. Sometimes getting people to see the point that idealism is not realistic is also unrealistic. We live in a real world and not a fantasy where things can change and make everything better, and I think that this comic points that out tremendously.
The use of chess specifically here is a really clever symbolism. Chess has become something of a cliché in the public eye as something that pretty much all intellectual fictional characters engage in or think about the world in relation to. Here however, it's being used a bit differently, but still similarly.
Chess in specific is a game that is played differently by people of different skill levels. Skill is gained by gaining the ability to think and plan forward more effectively. At a low level, the player doesn't have a plan for what comes next and simply makes the best choice they can think of in the moment to best benefit themselves. Their actions are strictly reactionary. At a high level, they are aware of the positions of each piece on the board, and the potential positions each piece could be in a turn ahead, or two turns ahead, or three, etc. The player is able to plan ahead based on potential future board states and makes moves based on that information. Their actions are strategic. As an added important detail, two high level players playing against each other will try to get a read on each other, get into each others heads to understand each other as much as possible. They will do this so as to have as much useful information as possible to best predict their opponents actions and develop an effective counter-strategy. That is to say, they will play differently depending on who their opponent is and how well they are able to predict their playstyle.
With all of this in mind, the use of Chess in this scene is a direct parallel to the conversation between Flash and Superman. If you contextualize the conversation between them as a game of chess in and of itself with each point being made being pieces moving on the board, what we see play out between them is Superman making the first move and getting off to a strong start in the game, only to gradually lose ground as he gets outplayed by Flash. Superman's read on Flash isn't as good as Flash's read on Superman, and Flash also possesses the superior ability to plan ahead, turning the "game" in his favor very quickly.
Another thing I like about the scene that could be an unintentional symbolism is that both sides on a game of chess are mirror images of each other. Both players start with all the same pieces. While the game in question is between Superman and Flash, the points Flash is making are very similar to the points Superman himself would have been making before being mentally scarred by the death of Lois and their unborn child. It really brings into perspective that it's not that he's inherently evil, but that he has become very emotionally vulnerable and morally confused. His once steady convictions have been shook, and he now masquerades this weakness as strength.
When you bring the comics into the discussion, it becomes clear that Superman is not the bad guy and Batman is not the good guy. Neither of them are either. What exists between them is war, and things aren't so simple as good vs evil. They are both trying their hardest to do the right thing, and are simply in opposition regarding their viewpoints regarding what the right thing is. They both make egregious mistakes along the way with these mistakes gaining and losing them supporters and enemies over time. Injustice isn't a story about good vs evil so much as it is a story about the effects of grief and how one deals with it, the responsibility that comes with power, and the consequences for misusing it.
I forgot it was flash making this point in the comics this explains better why Mr. Terrific was making the point in the movie.
The movie was a bad adaptation.
@@rirotis398 for several reasons, one of the main reasons it should have been a film series and not try to condense it all in one movie
This is the same thing with politicians to, point to the big scary thing whlie the much worse things stay unchecked
false equivalance fallacy
Unpopular opinion: Flash didn’t win the argument. First of all, that “then we kill” comes out of nowhere, he could have hypothesised prison even for those who don’t recycle, or any other kind of penalty fitter to the perceived degree of the crime. It’s a blatant sophism. Second, none of the indicated courses of action are self-evidently wrong, they just don’t align with a democratic system, a system with which Superman was already prone to do away with. Maybe they should get rid of all cigarettes, maybe punishment for breaking speed limits should be more severe - heck, maybe cars should be banned altogether and replaced with more advanced public transport, teleportation and re-imagining urban structures, and so on. He should have first proved that this is the right system, or at least that his dictatorial position was flawed, which attempted to when he first said “they’ll resent us”, to which Superman effectively countered. The “where’s the limit” argument is flawed because one can easily revert it: if by being consistent with limiting bad behaviour we end up prohibiting everything, which is bad, then by being consistent with let people free shouldn’t we, on the opposite, avoid restrain at all? Every juridical system must set boundaries to people’s actions, and that goes with whatever political framework the system is based on. Flash seems rather to have mixed up the political discourse with the moral one, i.e., even the people in charge, while well meaning, can’t trust themselves. But this is a very general statement which needs backup with particular cases scenarios which are hardly predictable - hence his appeal to their formerly shared liberal values and the mixing. In the end one could easily envision a scenario where Superman’s regime is actually the only good one, in that superpowers allow the authorities to structure society in an ideally efficient way, which at length would solve even the resentfulness problem - but that could be interpreted by the reader as an apology to fascism, so the authors would get backlash, and probably, being U.S. citizens, they wouldn’t be able to bring themselves to accept an authoritarian system being preferable to democracy even in a fictional setting.
For someone as smart as Flash, he should have noticed that what he was saying was just a Slipery Slope fallacy. But we all know his point of view is just the writer's
Flash uses slippery slope argument. It was super effective
The difference between guns and cigarettes is that guns are useful. Cigarette has no right, or reason, to even exist.
It’s a plant bro, blame the monkeys who smoke it
"Let's take away all the guns to save lives"
Same guy: "Let's make an army of super soldiers so we're better at killing"
Yeah. Great start.
I guess The Flash has never heard of the slippery slope fallacy.
I guess you've never heard of the slippery slope fallacy either, since this isn't that.
Every fallacy has prerequisites that have to be met to invalidate them. The appeal to authority fallacy fails when the authority is in fact the guy who did the experiment and has the facts. The no true scotsman fallacy fails when the reason they aren't a true scotsman is because they're a little japanese girl. The slippery slope argument fails when you're boiling the frog. If you want the scotsman fallacy to apply, you have prove them a male scottish national. If you want the appeal to authority fallacy to apply, you've got to show they haven't done their homework. And if you want the slippery slope fallacy to apply, you've got to install some brakes on the rape train and prove they work.
It's interesting that when Injustice starts off, the Joker is just doing his Jolly Japes bit with a nuke, with no idea what he's about to prove. He's not actively trying the same crap with Clark that he tried with Jim Gordon in The Killing Joke. But that's what he ends up doing, accidentally - giving Clark that One Bad Day. And unlike Jim Gordon, Clark Kent responds exactly as the Joker said anyone would, and snaps. Given what we know about Superman's ironclad morals, it really puts Jim Gordon into Sam Vimes territory for the whole 'the legendary (and fictional) Good Cop' thing.
But the Joker already knew though 😊
Problem with Superman’s at least they’re alive logic is some people would rather die on their feet then live on their knees.
It always start with good intentions...........
Perhaps but the ridiculousness of what was said can be shown in opposite terms: "If you won't let people have nuclear bombs you're going to kill people who don't recycle too aren't you?!"
@@V01DIOREwhy does everyone in this comment section cling to nuclear bombs thing. Cool man, you can exaggerate, we get it.
Its a debate around the cost that comes with achieving ones goals, and whether it's acceptable or even worth it. Why strawman a hypothetical of a hypothetical.
@@Touriquette The exaggeration was meant to be a mirror to show you how stupid flash argument was but you are attacking the mirror lol. He went from why won’t you let people have guns to you’re going to kill people who don’t recycle aren’t you?! Slippery slope fallacy. The nuclear bombs are to make it obvious how nonsensical the logic is but it flew over your head… maybe you will get it now but I don’t have high hopes for your comprehension. Also to suggest a strawman falsely is in itself a strawman argument ironically.
@@V01DIORE You don't need to exaggerate to show an arguement is flawed. Flashes arguement is flawed, I just believe he makes it for a different reason. (Emotional instead of the logic that debate demands)
An argument geared towards Superman specifically, not towards the idea of disarmament necessarily. These are characters in a comic book after all. While I meantioned it being a strawman because they're discussion is already on the level of philosophy more so than reality. (Hence, why I mention the strawmanning of a hypothetical) There is no official way to interpret it so any interpretation of the conversation is by nature a strawman. Though I never argued it, since there is nothing to suggest Superman still has restraint at this point the Slippery slope fallacy doesn't apply. In real life sure, but you have to make that distinction. (The slippery slope fallacy partially refers to inevitability, contrast this with Superman who we know will actively persue this. Disrupting the process that justifies a Slippery Slope) Caveats, and conditions still apply, even to fallacies.
The fact that you ignored the entire sentence that came before the strawman one proves your lack of comprehension. I thought you'd be more competent and thorough.
Your correct, but by being such a pretentious ass you miss the point regardless. Its a hollow victory.
@@V01DIORESuperman literally became a dictator, not all slippery slopes are fallacies
This is such an American sequence. Nearly all other countries don't have the same visceral reaction to the elimination of guns. Nearly all other countries don't have the knee-jerk belief that regulation is inherently a slippery slope. Lots of countries with democracies more functional than the US' have in fact largely eliminated guns. Pretty much no countries have made cigarettes outright illegal, but that's not really because doing so would represent a slippery slope towards introducing more questionable regulation. It's partly because the tobacco companies still have deep lobbying pockets, and partly because, like with the war on other drugs, it's probably more effective to make the things just annoyingly difficult to get, stop them from advertising or otherwise marketing the damn things, tax them heavily, and make sure there's help for people trying to kick the addiction.
Overall, Flash's argument is actually pretty bad. But it pushes the buttons of Americans in ways that make them assume it's better than it is.
Or rather, the slippery slope argument is bad. His best argument is actually at the beginning--that if they take the guns by FORCE, without legitimacy, it will lead to resistance . . . and Superman can snicker, but resistance need not take the form of trying to hit him with sticks. General strike, for instance, or other forms of passive resistance. There are hundreds of millions of people in the US; if they all agree not to do what Superman says the moment they're not physically in his presence, how much control can he exert?
2:30 god i love the slippery slope fallacy - the writers
tell me about it. it's the same crap that led to "defund the police"..and all the surprised pikachu faces at the chaos and crime that erupts after it happens.
@@alexsolomon8127acab but you can't just defund the police you gotta get programs/fund projects
It's almost like these writers respect heroes and know how to show a downfall that still respects the hero and what he represents or something.
Politics aside, I like how all they had to do was just copy this panel over and over and over and it got the point across *perfectly* in a way that simply doing different angles couldn't. Almost like that's a peak inside of Clark's on mind. How many times has he already considered this? How many times has he argued himself down, or even considered his logic in a positive light, only to have somebody he thought would be on his side using his exact logic, but disparagingly instead of positively?
It's an amazing bit of character writing. I could be completely wrong in what I said, but I could also be right. It's what makes writing like this provocative.
No...Flash just uses the Slippery Slope Fallacy. That's not good debating. That's bad.
(And?) Has to be one of the weakest comebacks of all time 1:50
The absolute stupidity of the "if there are guns people die, if there are no guns, people live"
Is just... Tiresome at this point.
Yet it is time and again proven to be correct.
@@Nerazmus
Except it's not.
More people die form knives than guns in America.
That doesn't mean we should get rid of all knives. That doesn't mean knives are inherently violent.
It means there are people who will do bad. Regardless of what tools they have or don't have at their disposal.
UK practically has no guns. Their knife crimes and killings went through the roof.
Also, they still have crimes that involve guns.
Because bad people, will do bad. Blame the person, not the tool.
They're literally unironically calling for "knife control" in the UK.
@@rainynight02 So your stupid argument is "The is something that causes more death than this thing, so we should do absolutely nothign about this thing"? Yeah, that is very silly.
Yeah, knives aren't inherently violent because a knife is a tool. You can do a lot of things with a knife. Cut bushes, cut food, cut paper, poke holes in paper, ... and yeah also stab things.
Guns on the other hand are because a gun is a weapon. It can be used to kill things, injure things, kill more things and that's it.
@@rainynight02 OI! You got a loicense for that opinion, guvnor? We're sending the police to talk to you about your tweets.
If I’m not mistaken flash is using the slippery slope fallacy
Wrong. He’s pointing out that if Superman’s goal is to save as many people as possible regardless of the cost to their freedoms then everything he mentioned is a natural conclusion.
More a philosophical approach, but, if we wanted to stop speeding, we cold just not built cars that go faster than most speed limits (40, 50 mph). Don't build things from unrecyclable materials or ban cigarrette production. I love this interaction in the comic series but I think it's flawed as it always comes from punishing an unwanted behavior rather than reinforcing positive behaviors from design (by removing temptation or even possibility).
I saw this thumbnail but didn’t click on it and scrolled twice and there was a short which was just the thumbnail animated except it was Superman and Mr Terrific
"Arrest everyone who speeds" isn't a good logical escalation. "Make it illegal for people to drive cars" would be a much better argument.
I love flash so much i love the aspect of his humour but how he can be serious when needed
You had me until 0:05
People that say Injustice is a good fighting game don't actually play fighting games.
What's wrong with the game?
@@noiceferatu1187literally
@@osufan8278😂
Injustice 1 was a good fighting game... @@noiceferatu1187
That whole sequence is so American. Allowing people to have guns is somehow the rational opinion in this narrative.
More lives are saved annually in the US by firearms use than are lost because of firearms use by at minimum an order of magnitude. It’s entirely a rational position.
...am I the only one who thinks the Flash's counter-arguments are stupid?
"Let's get rid of cigarettes": Cigarettes are a choice people make to harm themselves, not a harm they're inflicting on others. Secondhand smoke is a valid concern, yes, but it's not like it's being weaponized to harm others directly. Besides, if you want to stop cigarettes, go after the companies that make them, especially the ones doing super shady shit in 3rd world countries.
To be honest, the same can be said about guns manufacturers...
""Imprison anyone who speeds in a car": Depending on how fast you're going over? Yes, this is a good idea. In fact many states already do this: go so far over the speed limit, and you're guilty of Reckless Driving and get jail time. So yeah, jail people who go dangerously fast.
"Lock up anyone who leaves a dangerous dog outside": Again, this is a crime already in most places. It can be considered "Criminal Negligence". Jail them. Or at least take the dog.
"Kill anyone who doesn't recycle": This one is the dumbest one, and was likely supposed to be a gut-punch "gotcha", but individual recycling doesn't make a dent in the grand scheme of things. It's all about corporate waste. Again, take it to the companies that produce excessive waste.
This isn't a take I see anyone else having, so I know it's not a popular one, but I just don't see this scene as being very compelling. I get what it's trying to do, the whole "slippery slope" fallacy and all that, but... I mean, it's a fallacy for a reason, right? I feel like it could have been directed better, I suppose.