Before you ask, yeah I know about the chair squeaking in the background my chair got busted some how, I ordered a new one, but I had to get this video out and couldn't wait! Sorry if it's annoying!
One of the reasons for why the high lords didn't just use the minotaurs is that they didn't exist yet since the war happened in M33 and the minotaurs are part of the cursed founding which happened in M35
0:51 Killing billions of people in battles, limiting intergalactic Space Marine chapters to only 1000 marines, and anything involving Warhammer pricing made me realize something: GW just doesn't understand how numbers work.
Can't wait to get a book about it and at the very end when the false primarch is dying the last thing he sees is a flash of green light and a necron saying "no no no this will not do"
The False Primarch was actually Alpharius who decided to do some trolling. On a more serious note it would be an Alpha legion move to have the 5 space marine chapters destroy 11 loyalist chapters by deceiving the 11 into thinking it was a loyalist Primarch returning
I always presumed that it was just a dude who managed to abuse their power while convincing a bunch of space marines to defect from the Imperium, with the original leader became defied by the renegades, gaining the title of Primarch during the conflict before dying and having his superficial title being the only thing that remained.
A theory that makes more sense within the lore. The idea that eleven chapters were well-meaning but bamboozled just stretches the incredulity. There have been other instances of Astartes claiming to be a Primarch, but they were branded a heretic and murderized so fast their head spun. Primarchs have a bearing that is recognizable to Astartes instantly. With the possible exception of Alpharius and Omegon, but they are a unique case.
Given that Fabius managed to rewire a zoanthrope, what if he managed to manipulate a Genestealer Patriarch’s whole biology to become what is essentially a Demi-Primarch in every regard minus a Primarch’s deific soul?
The Nova Terra Interregnum is another great example of a seemingly massive event that only ever got a tiny lore blurb. The entire thing is obviously just a tongue in cheek reference to the West-East Roman Empire divide, Nova Terra apparently also being known as 'Constantinium', but it's still crazy that their was apparently another planet able to rival Terra for power and influence and hold out against the Imperium for 900 years.
Ch-arnel Guard are my jam. (Carnal is a word that would be appropriate for a Slaanesh Chaos War Band...a Charnel House is a place where corpses are processed)
Another example of a tiny blurb with huge implications is the Constantinus Iconoclism, a 200+ year war between 3 chapters of marines, 12 guard regiments, and many more against various chaotic rabble led by like 3 space marines
@@Psyker_Unredactusyes, and? The tyranids also fleet based but they have pets from their home world. Just look at those happy little gene stealers that fly along side their ships. When the void is your homeworld, everything inside it is from it. Just look at the dark Eldar. They are pretty open about this. “This land is my land~” “You are a fleet you have no land.” **this is my land intensifies**
@@calebreynolds9183his name was akio, and he even grew wings. But it turned out to be a plan of tzeentch and before akio died he begged for forgiveness while the BA burned his body respectfully
I'd certainly say CH.. and found at least one source agreeing with us. But looking it up it's from the Latin carnālis, meaning 'of the flesh'. I'm guessing charnel and carnal come from the same root.
@@locomotivevoice Always blows my mind when these words become an in lore pronunciation discussion when it's right there in the dictionary already. :)
This event is very notable for the sheer amount of time this event took. 80 years (I think) is an unusually long amount of time for something like this. Even the Heresy, or the Siege of Vracks took no more than 20 years and they were considered noteworthy
The siege of Vraks was one fortress, presumably this war involved multiple planets. I remember in one of the Eisenhorn books there was a reference to a 100 year long war to re-take a subsector that had left the imperium, which I think is a better point of comparison.
Um no, Space Wolves are not guaranteed to fall to the curse of the wolfen where as Blood Angels are to the black rage, not only that but the Blood angels have multiple afflictions.
@@YourStylesGeneric321 I believe the Blood Angels geneseed peculiarities of the Black Rage and the Red Thrist are not overtly concerning as they can be directed towards the enemy. The Curse of the Wolfen is more concerning as it mutates the Astartes or the Unitiated into Uncontrollable abominations no different than the Flesh Changed of the Thousand Suns in the loss of Humanity and Control.
8:18 fun fact about the red talons get their name comes from the flagship of a Horus heresy era captain of clan morralgul Autek mor clan morralgul was where all the extremely volatile recruits were sent and when I say Volatile I mean it because autek mor nuked a moon so hard he knocked it out of orbit then he landed a bunch of marines and auxiliaries onto a world eaters planet that had Titan legions stationed on it just to get some cryopod and then ordered a retreat right before the moon collided with the planet
I reckon the High Lords got the Mechanicus to try and clone/recreate a Primarch but the subject went rogue. It wouldn’t be unprecedented since the Mechanicus DID create a Primarch sized Marine during the Cursed Founding which is now in the hands of Fabius Bile.
Bonesy, it's definitely *Ch*arnel Guard not Carnal with a hard C. 'Carnal Guard' sounds like slaaneshi sex marines lol. Dictionary pronunciation of Charnel is with a Ch/Sh sound as well.
I think itd be a good book series if the false primarch wasnt just some power hungry space marine but a non chaos corrupted renegade with good intentions, maybe even have something to do with clones or the new lore with the primarchs souls. A tragic tale because honestly, with the loyalist space marine chapters sent to deal with the renegades, they sound like villains, they being the loyalists
I like to think it was a Successor to the Blood Angel's that fell to the black rage and managed to keep their shit together long enough to be a problem.
You totally forgetting that Pater Mutatis (a.k.a. uncle Fabius) cloned multiple Primarchs - and done that aaaaall the way back around time of Heresy's End/Long war's start.
Food for thought "11 legions" = the 11th primarch? Or perhaps Subject-11? (or whatever it was called that eacaped the vaults of terra) Mabye, they are both the same thing
Arthur so caked up he busted a chair Also CHARNEL GUARD MY BELOVED legitimately they are one of if not the coolest back ground space marine chapter and Aaron D Bowden may or may not be writting a book on them for a very cool reason you'll see in the heresy
@@Mistheart101 Let's just say that ADB has become a bit of a divisive writer among the fanbase as of late. Some of his lore decisions for the Horus Heresy were... not received well. That and apparently he was the leading voice for pushing female Custodes way back before GW did the sloppiest "they've always been there no we're not giving you new models" retcon for Custodes a few months back, which only gives people more reason to dislike him. It is what it is.
@@internetzenmaster8952 I mean, I know about the Custodes thing, but is that really enough to call him a terrible human being? Like, fuckin' hell I was worried he turned out to be a turbo-racist or something.
wow, i was just watching your video on the 11th legion from a year ago last night. I was left wishing for more and then i wake up today to find this new vid drop. awesome.
5:17 "Charnel" It's definitely _CHarnel_ guard, not "CARnal" guard. One's related to the term 'charnel house', the other pronunciation sounds like you're discussing something involving sexual intercourse.
i remember reading some theory that every chapter in the Pentarchy is a "secret" Nightlord succesor chapter and this was tied into the false primarch being curz related, idk how well it fits with all the chapters having a confirmed geneseed but its sounds cool
I like to think it’s a marine that had Omegons blood give him a bit of his aura to pose as a Primarch effectively allowing a single marine to destroy 10 loyal chapters and damage 5 others as part of some scheme to steal an artifact or something
GW has so many great stories it could tell but they're happy leaving them as footnotes in a codex right next to a blurb over the suspension of a taurox over a bumpy hill.
Considering that we are talking about a significant amount of chapters turned traitor, that supposed to be a hell of a space marine to lead them and impersonate a primarch. My money could be on Fabius Bile and one of his creations: it could be a clone of one of the loyal pimarch - and while that would explain the sheer size of a conflict, it could also explain why the outcome was in favor of the Imperium. It could also be a perfect opportunity for us to look at the soft "Alternate Heresy" from the perspective of a clone - how he perceve the Imperium, how he became more and more horrified at the dectruction of Emperor legacy. It wood be cool to see how desperation could eventually lead to his rebellion against the Imperium. Funny thing would be if the clone woudn't even now about his nature, thinking that he was the real thing only to get himself killed by somebody like Tyberos "The Red Wake".
- a clone from Fabius Bile or the dark eldar - one of the lost Primarchs - a big astartes - the prototype primarch that ran away from terra - a retired roque custode - a retcon primaris marine - sigmar - alpharius - The Silver Knight Of Slaanesh?
The False Primarch, I think, was probably just a incredibly powerful Pysker who deluded themselves into thinking they were a primarch, but due to their such deep delusion, coupled with their incredible power, it became sort of real because they bought into their hype that much. It could have also been coupled with belief in him by others who thought he was a primarch, and leading to a sort of positive feedback loop. It could go a long way to explaining, why marines that specialize in decimating and terrorizing their enemies where chosen, since, if people were too scared to believe, they couldn't empower the false primarch.
I personally hope they don't flesh this one out. Our imagination is better than the potential explanation and GW track record at the moment for lore is abysmal. There's too much vagueness, so GW would have to drip feed details like mention in passing a chapter that was expunged by the pentarchy. So they'd probably mess it up. That said, I would like a loose end tied off in Arik Taranis from the heresy. Thunder warriors commanders were known as 'primarchs' so maybe he took up the title. How he gained leadership over 11 space marine chapters though would be a truly epic story in and of itself. Maybe he got help from Fabius Bile...?
Ushotan did survive Mt Arrat to take place in the Palace Coup (killed by Valdor). Ghota survived into the Horus heresy and worked on Marine gene seed to extend his life/save other Thunder Warriors from genetic degradation. The Plenty of room for other Thunder Warriors to have survived other battles and melted into the background for a time to pop up again later. Would make sense that a Thunder Warrior could pull the Primarch facade, physically bigger. Would have knowledge of the Emperor no one else would from unification. Not Astartes built (no second heart/other space marine organs) and what chapters if any in the Imperium would know about the physical makeup of the Primarch’s.
@@thatonegreenguy2842Given Ushotan managed to flat out give problems for Valdor in battle, Thunder Warrior Primarchs alone would be a serious problem for 5 chapters to deal with.
Well, Primarchs have an aura of warp-demigod charisma. Sending chapters that ARE ABSOLUTELY UNHINGED and scare THE LIVING FUCK out everyone... seems like a good go-to.
He was a clone of Ezekiel Abaddon who rejected the taint of chaos and seeing the foul perversion of the emperors dream rallied many space marines to his cause to reform the imperium.
It's CHarnal with a hard H like Charbroil or Charcoal. A Charnal house is where graveyards would burn old corpses when they ran out of room. So they share the char root
Badab War is also early war. Like before the Heresy was the main focus Badab War was. The Badab War was the big plot point before Sisters of Battle existed.
If I had to guess, the false primarch was a man who was charasmatic enough and caring enough that people flocked to him based on those two qualities alone. He valued the lives of not just his fellow marines, but of the people in the worlds he ruled over. That's probably why the high lords used marines that were known for horrific and uncaring actions against him. Killing and causing fear amoungst the populous was just another strategy of war that the false primarch would feel the need to respond to every time. Except unlike sanguinius who could legit micromanage his way through most of it, this guy couldn't. It would definetly be an interesting story to watch this false primarch slowly lose his mind watching the people he cared for be torn apart. Proper grimdark.
I could be wrong, but to my knowledge the Blood Angels' gene-seed is the third most unstable loyalist gene-seed with the two most unstable being the Space Wolves' and the Salamanders' gene-seed
I would love to see a discussion panel with you, MajorKill, and Valrak! Could I be so lucky to have three of my favorite 40k juggernauts in one video!?
Fun fact (if no one already beat me to it lol): The Charnel Guard were founded by Dominion Zephon of the Blood Angels after the Heresy. Zephon was a pretty chill dude until i think 3 or all 4 of his limbs got taken off by Eldar, and he got sent by Sanguinius to be the BA’s primary representative on Terra. Dude was an absolute badass in helping with the War in the Webway, being a chill dude if a bit melancholic and subtly full of fuck-mad rage at his handicapped state with shitty augmetics. Man could play the harp so well it made mutants weep, comforted imperial children made into refugees by the Heresy, became buddy-cops with Arkhan Land, charged a daemon-possessed Mechancium facsimile of a primarch, and made an Imperial Knight house matriarch blush when he came to her rescue. It’s also noted that, while all blood angels have fangs, Zephon’s were distinctively long and pronounced, something which carried on to the Charnel Guard. Ngl one of my favorite characters.
I always thought this bit of lore was great for homebrewing story ideas and bits of lore. For example, I made this a devastating defeat for my homebrew chapter, the Angelic Stars, who were knocked out of the war after being sent in on their own by the High Lords of Terra early on.
It would definitely be a fun thought experiment to lay out the War of False Primarch's plot. Who was he? Who were the chapters that sided with him? How did the war go down? Its such a neat concept that I'm genuinely surprised there's so little lore on it.
I think it was just Rogal Dawn's spare hand. In a hand sized suit of armour, complete with fingy helmet that it used to do sock puppet mouth style speeches.
The theory I subscribe to with the war of the false primarch is that fabius bile did what he does and made another primarch like horus or the other one he created. If we knew which chapters defected and who they came from, we could even know why they left. Maybe 11 imperial fist successors followed the false clone of rogal dorn
Physical scars heal, but all of those worlds will have nightmares and tell stories of how the Emperor’s Angels slaughtered each other. That’s why I think they sent fear based chapters.
Chapter master of Carcharodons Tyberos the red wake is actually a substantially massive Astartes... so maybe even he learned something from that false primarch to make himself so big...
The War of the False Primarch was not retconned per se, but it was mostly abandoned because of the lore that was developed during the Horus Heresy series. Right up to Lion, Son of the Forest, much is made about the psychological affect primarchs have on the Astartes. Not just their own gene father, but any Primarch. Dante even says when he meets Lion that he knew Lion was the real deal because of the “bearing” a Primarch has, which Dante recognized from meeting Guilliman. The Imperial Fists under Courland who went to find Vulkan during the War of the Beast were in awe of Vulkan just from seeing him. Azrael knew the Lion was the Lion because his “blood was singing”. Therefore, it makes it rather hard to believe that other Space Marines were unable to recognize an imposter. It just runs counter to what we know of the effects Primarchs have on people, even if the person never met a Primarch before. More likely, this was just blatant heresy that the heretics attempted to cloak with a baseless claim. That would explain the choice of chapters sent to deal with them. It was a message to other chapters: don’t play stupid games, unless you want to win stupid prizes.
False Primarch could have been a Thunder Warrior. Physically larger than a normal Marine. They would have first/secondhand knowledge of the Emperor from Unification/Early Imperium no one else would. Not possessing any of the Astartes organs (Thunder Warriors were genetically modified similar to the Custodians but less ‘refined’), what chapters after the Heresy and disappearance/loss of the all the Primarchs would know what exactly went into their creation? Ushotan survived Mt Arrat but was killed later (with a force of Thunder Warriors and rebels) by Valdor. A Thunder Warrior helped organize a rebellion against the Emperor. Ghota survived into the Heresy and studied Marine Gene Seed to try and save himself and other Thunder Warriors from genetic degradation. During the crusade/heresy era Marines did know that the Primarch was basically a different type of Astartes (knew they had two hearts etc) but also mentioned multiple times that they had a very limited understanding of the physiology of the Primarchs when it came to trying to mend injuries/help them recover. Suddenly a huge guy with charisma (no Astartes programming + fully developed human personality) shows up talking about his adventures with the Emperor from the Crusade. Tells everyone that he knows the next move. Practically insane and gets wiped by first concentrated resistance effort by Imperium. Sound like a good way to go out in any Thunder Warriors’s book.
The reason why only 5 chapters won against 11 chapters is cause 4 of them attacked the main planet with the Primarch on it , while the Red Talons were doing the Autek Morr thing and were just throwning moons at the rest of the occupied planets.
About the false Primarchs, the real options are: - A very convincing Omegon poser - A clone with some kind of surrogate "soul juice" - Chaos turning some marine into a prime (happened once if i'm not wrong, something related to Mephiston) In any case, those 11 chapters were chumps if those 5 did wipe them out.
Would definitely like a book series on this event. Seems like the Scouring is probably gonna be next that the Heresy is done so maybe we'll get the False Primarch after that.
In sons of the hydra the ‘primarch’ of the alpha legion returns and is revealed to be a c’tann shard. Many of the alpha legion still consider themself loyalist. The 11 rebelling chapters could be all from one successor chapter and so the appearance of a previously dead primarch could have incited them to rebellion
I hate the idea that everything like this is almost always chaos. Like "And it was revealed that it was actually the changeling." Instead, i think it owykd be cool if the False Primarch was actually Alpharius, or Omegon, depending on who actually died, and he PURPOSEFULLY strategically led those 11 chaoters to their death because of some currently unkown reason. Which would be especily cool if Omegon was actually loyal pretending to be a traitor
Good to see that more and more people delve into the subject, although we don't have much to read about it. For all interested, I can recommend a nice fan project about this war. The name is +Some Things Are Best Left Forgotten+
CHarnel Guard. I assume the name refers to a Charnal House, a building where bodily remains or bones are stored; it can also refer to a particularly violent place as well.
A little sad you didn’t mention the Charnel Guard’s founder, Dominion Zephon. The Red Talons aren’t unlike the Iron Hands at all, they’re just the most transparent about how every Son of Ferrus feels. Iron Hands always get described in other faction’s books as being Spock levels of logical/tactical, but when you actually get to an Iron Hand PoV when they’re in melee or charging they’re out there with the fury of a Black Templar. The main difference between the Xth and Templars being the Iron Hands preference for ruthlessly wiping out their enemies versus glorious and honorable combat. The Red Talons are just the only Iron Xth who use their hate of traitors to bury their hate of themselves
Charnel guard are one of the original successor chapters. Dominion zephon, a blood angel who served during the heresy, kicked that one off after the heresy ended and the legions were split to 1000 max. They are 200% a blood angels successor
The false primarch was surviving Raptor Marine librarian whose geneseed mutated in a attempt to reverse engineer his geneseed, to the point that it started replacing host cells with donor cells.
Small note - the charnel guard is definitely a blood angels successor. They were founded by dominion zephon, noted blood angels hero of the heresy. There does seem to be some conflict with their progenitors, as the blood angels do not recognise them as successors. They did show up for the big bash on baal tho.
Before you ask, yeah I know about the chair squeaking in the background
my chair got busted some how, I ordered a new one, but I had to get this video out and couldn't wait!
Sorry if it's annoying!
I am now submitting my seventh request for a Red Scorpion video.
Hugs and Kisses,
cool dude
When red scorpions?
Its fine mate, great video anyways.
Thought had subscribed on the Leman Russ vid that the 5th lord, Algo sent my way.
I am made of stupid...
Anyway, thx for the great content.
In the same day as gaijin goombah and his video on skaven. Neat
I have a theory that the False Primarch was actually 7 Nurglings in a trench coat, but I have yet to find compelling evidence to prove this.
A pretty solid theory
I'll counter that with either A. The changeling, or B. An alpha legion member who convinced themselves they were a primarch
Correction, you have yet to find evidence to deny this.
Checks out
I can see that.
One of the reasons for why the high lords didn't just use the minotaurs is that they didn't exist yet since the war happened in M33 and the minotaurs are part of the cursed founding which happened in M35
I can actually see the Pentarchy being a reason for Minotaurs being created
same with Sons of the phoenix right?
I seem to remember that The Minotaurs origins is uncertain, that they're mentioned around M32, and later years too.
@@fernandomanqueo9901sons of the Phoenix are Ultima founding
@@darko-man8549maybe a chimera made from the legions in the pentarchy? Perfect space marine killer legion
0:51 Killing billions of people in battles, limiting intergalactic Space Marine chapters to only 1000 marines, and anything involving Warhammer pricing made me realize something: GW just doesn't understand how numbers work.
What do you mean we made record PROFITS but we still need to increase prices?
I just assume every single in-universe scribe that records historical information just makes shit up to make stuff sound cool
It's mixed.
Took you that long to figure that out??
They never, ever have. It goes back so many years lol
Can't wait to get a book about it and at the very end when the false primarch is dying the last thing he sees is a flash of green light and a necron saying "no no no this will not do"
Just as planned *rubs hands together *
Go back to sleep , beepbops. Nobody is talking about you on this video.
The False Primarch was actually Alpharius who decided to do some trolling. On a more serious note it would be an Alpha legion move to have the 5 space marine chapters destroy 11 loyalist chapters by deceiving the 11 into thinking it was a loyalist Primarch returning
That's why we love the alpha legion
That's actually an awesome plot
How many war crimes do you want in your campaign?
High Lords of Terra: YES
I always presumed that it was just a dude who managed to abuse their power while convincing a bunch of space marines to defect from the Imperium, with the original leader became defied by the renegades, gaining the title of Primarch during the conflict before dying and having his superficial title being the only thing that remained.
*Deified.
@FlameForgedSoul I wrote this at 4 am man... Get off my back...
@@SnowySabreToothedLeopardit's a really cool theory
A theory that makes more sense within the lore. The idea that eleven chapters were well-meaning but bamboozled just stretches the incredulity. There have been other instances of Astartes claiming to be a Primarch, but they were branded a heretic and murderized so fast their head spun.
Primarchs have a bearing that is recognizable to Astartes instantly. With the possible exception of Alpharius and Omegon, but they are a unique case.
My personal headcanon is that the false primarch was a genestealer patriarch that had been able to infiltrate and infect the 11 chapters.
Oohhh lovely head canon.
Given that Fabius managed to rewire a zoanthrope, what if he managed to manipulate a Genestealer Patriarch’s whole biology to become what is essentially a Demi-Primarch in every regard minus a Primarch’s deific soul?
No, that's too scary. Like, that's really, really scary
There's always the comedy Alpharius option.
War of the False Primarch M33
First Contact with Tyranids M41
The Nova Terra Interregnum is another great example of a seemingly massive event that only ever got a tiny lore blurb. The entire thing is obviously just a tongue in cheek reference to the West-East Roman Empire divide, Nova Terra apparently also being known as 'Constantinium', but it's still crazy that their was apparently another planet able to rival Terra for power and influence and hold out against the Imperium for 900 years.
Legit never heard of this bit of lore gunna give ita look see.
Ch-arnel Guard are my jam. (Carnal is a word that would be appropriate for a Slaanesh Chaos War Band...a Charnel House is a place where corpses are processed)
This
No getting carnal in the houses charnel.
Probably a not fully completed primarch clone that fabius released for fun
Most likely seems like a super viable option
I wouldn't be surprised it was a failed cloned primarch kept in stasis since before the heresy, who one way or another broke free
It's you... You're the False Primarch.
The real False Primarch was the friends we made along the way.
Another example of a tiny blurb with huge implications is the Constantinus Iconoclism, a 200+ year war between 3 chapters of marines, 12 guard regiments, and many more against various chaotic rabble led by like 3 space marines
I'm really curious about the giant freaky shark that tyberose keeps as a pet
My guess is its a native creature to their homeworld.
That’s just his Blahaj, it’s an ancient Terran relic secured from an infinite maze of oddly well-furnished suburban rooms.
@@Psyker_Unredactustheir a fleet based chapter primarily
@@Psyker_Unredactusyes, and?
The tyranids also fleet based but they have pets from their home world. Just look at those happy little gene stealers that fly along side their ships.
When the void is your homeworld, everything inside it is from it.
Just look at the dark Eldar. They are pretty open about this.
“This land is my land~”
“You are a fleet you have no land.”
**this is my land intensifies**
His name is Bob.
He likes belly rubs and eldar captors
Didn't The Iron Hands try that already? Putting Ferrus Manus' severed head on a robot, i mean
Just casual Iron Hands things 😂
I mean its not even a head but a flesnsed skull an they would only have got it back post sot? After sang got it in the throne room.
It was one of his arms, but uh, yeah.
@@Haloister Aw, the little scamps
@@Haloisterthe head of Ferrus was recovered from Horus throne room by Dorn, after emperor won.
This reminds me of that time a blood angel thought he was Sanguinius and caused a civil war in his own chapter.
I guess we’re talking about a different blood angel than the Sanguinor
@@calebreynolds9183his name was akio, and he even grew wings. But it turned out to be a plan of tzeentch and before akio died he begged for forgiveness while the BA burned his body respectfully
@@seasons1745 thank you
CHARNEL GUARD
CH
CH
CH
Carnal Guard would be a Slaaneshi warband.
I'd certainly say CH.. and found at least one source agreeing with us.
But looking it up it's from the Latin carnālis, meaning 'of the flesh'. I'm guessing charnel and carnal come from the same root.
It's definitely Ch since charnel IS an english word and you can google its pronounciation if you are in doubt
@@locomotivevoice Always blows my mind when these words become an in lore pronunciation discussion when it's right there in the dictionary already. :)
I swear English classes really fell off these days.
@@AustinRonald i can't forget it since whenever i select a necromancer in total war he screams at me about charnel pits
This event is very notable for the sheer amount of time this event took. 80 years (I think) is an unusually long amount of time for something like this. Even the Heresy, or the Siege of Vracks took no more than 20 years and they were considered noteworthy
The siege of Vraks was one fortress, presumably this war involved multiple planets. I remember in one of the Eisenhorn books there was a reference to a 100 year long war to re-take a subsector that had left the imperium, which I think is a better point of comparison.
I think the point of using fear based chapters was so there tactics would break down the false primarchs' confidence
4:39 Um, no, the most volatile and dangerous loyalist geneseed is that of the Space Wolves.
Um no, Space Wolves are not guaranteed to fall to the curse of the wolfen where as Blood Angels are to the black rage, not only that but the Blood angels have multiple afflictions.
@@YourStylesGeneric321 I believe the Blood Angels geneseed peculiarities of the Black Rage and the Red Thrist are not overtly concerning as they can be directed towards the enemy. The Curse of the Wolfen is more concerning as it mutates the Astartes or the Unitiated into Uncontrollable abominations no different than the Flesh Changed of the Thousand Suns in the loss of Humanity and Control.
8:18 fun fact about the red talons get their name comes from the flagship of a Horus heresy era captain of clan morralgul Autek mor clan morralgul was where all the extremely volatile recruits were sent and when I say Volatile I mean it because autek mor nuked a moon so hard he knocked it out of orbit then he landed a bunch of marines and auxiliaries onto a world eaters planet that had Titan legions stationed on it just to get some cryopod and then ordered a retreat right before the moon collided with the planet
Bro was Gigachad
The Badab War would be great material for a book series
I reckon the High Lords got the Mechanicus to try and clone/recreate a Primarch but the subject went rogue. It wouldn’t be unprecedented since the Mechanicus DID create a Primarch sized Marine during the Cursed Founding which is now in the hands of Fabius Bile.
Bonesy, it's definitely *Ch*arnel Guard not Carnal with a hard C. 'Carnal Guard' sounds like slaaneshi sex marines lol.
Dictionary pronunciation of Charnel is with a Ch/Sh sound as well.
You calling them the carnal guard as in like carnal pleasures really makes me picture them as some slaaneshi warrant
I think itd be a good book series if the false primarch wasnt just some power hungry space marine but a non chaos corrupted renegade with good intentions, maybe even have something to do with clones or the new lore with the primarchs souls. A tragic tale because honestly, with the loyalist space marine chapters sent to deal with the renegades, they sound like villains, they being the loyalists
I like to think it was a Successor to the Blood Angel's that fell to the black rage and managed to keep their shit together long enough to be a problem.
You totally forgetting that Pater Mutatis (a.k.a. uncle Fabius) cloned multiple Primarchs - and done that aaaaall the way back around time of Heresy's End/Long war's start.
It was a Thunder Warrior Primarch.
Nah, he's accounted for
@@Some_Average_Joe There were 20 of those.
Food for thought "11 legions" = the 11th primarch?
Or perhaps Subject-11? (or whatever it was called that eacaped the vaults of terra)
Mabye, they are both the same thing
I hope not, it contradicts a fan theory I like that the 11th primarch was imprisoned on Terra for being a pacifist
@@Some_Average_JoeImprisoning a pacifist in the same cell as artificially made eldritch horrors, sounds out of the left field.
@@NOTAlpharius1999 Ah yes, because Warhammer 40k lore has never had anything come out of left field
@@Some_Average_JoeFair enough.
The gene blight of the emperor's children is sitting in the corner crying over not being noted among major geanseed flaws
Arthur so caked up he busted a chair
Also CHARNEL GUARD MY BELOVED
legitimately they are one of if not the coolest back ground space marine chapter and Aaron D Bowden may or may not be writting a book on them for a very cool reason you'll see in the heresy
He's a terrible writer and an even worse human being. I wouldn't get too excited
@@bowler9785 ?? What
His Nightlords Omnibus is quite good, as person though…
@@Mistheart101 Let's just say that ADB has become a bit of a divisive writer among the fanbase as of late. Some of his lore decisions for the Horus Heresy were... not received well. That and apparently he was the leading voice for pushing female Custodes way back before GW did the sloppiest "they've always been there no we're not giving you new models" retcon for Custodes a few months back, which only gives people more reason to dislike him.
It is what it is.
@@internetzenmaster8952 I mean, I know about the Custodes thing, but is that really enough to call him a terrible human being? Like, fuckin' hell I was worried he turned out to be a turbo-racist or something.
wow, i was just watching your video on the 11th legion from a year ago last night. I was left wishing for more and then i wake up today to find this new vid drop. awesome.
Plot twist images it was just two skaven in a human suit
And skaven yet?
Charnal Guard = Zephons bois, deffo Blood Angels succsessors.
5:17 "Charnel" It's definitely _CHarnel_ guard, not "CARnal" guard. One's related to the term 'charnel house', the other pronunciation sounds like you're discussing something involving sexual intercourse.
The false primarch was just a group of rattlings on each other's shoulders whose prank got REALLY out of control.
i remember reading some theory that every chapter in the Pentarchy is a "secret" Nightlord succesor chapter and this was tied into the false primarch being curz related, idk how well it fits with all the chapters having a confirmed geneseed but its sounds cool
Thank you for covering this! I'd love to see a book series come from this.
I like to think it’s a marine that had Omegons blood give him a bit of his aura to pose as a Primarch effectively allowing a single marine to destroy 10 loyal chapters and damage 5 others as part of some scheme to steal an artifact or something
God I love that art at the beginning, Hawtdawg65 did an incredible job with it.
GW has so many great stories it could tell but they're happy leaving them as footnotes in a codex right next to a blurb over the suspension of a taurox over a bumpy hill.
Considering that we are talking about a significant amount of chapters turned traitor, that supposed to be a hell of a space marine to lead them and impersonate a primarch. My money could be on Fabius Bile and one of his creations: it could be a clone of one of the loyal pimarch - and while that would explain the sheer size of a conflict, it could also explain why the outcome was in favor of the Imperium.
It could also be a perfect opportunity for us to look at the soft "Alternate Heresy" from the perspective of a clone - how he perceve the Imperium, how he became more and more horrified at the dectruction of Emperor legacy. It wood be cool to see how desperation could eventually lead to his rebellion against the Imperium. Funny thing would be if the clone woudn't even now about his nature, thinking that he was the real thing only to get himself killed by somebody like Tyberos "The Red Wake".
- a clone from Fabius Bile or the dark eldar
- one of the lost Primarchs
- a big astartes
- the prototype primarch that ran away from terra
- a retired roque custode
- a retcon primaris marine
- sigmar
- alpharius
- The Silver Knight Of Slaanesh?
Probably either one of the missing primarchs (doubtful) or a space marine who got so juiced up on chaos energy that he got confused for a primarch.
The False Primarch, I think, was probably just a incredibly powerful Pysker who deluded themselves into thinking they were a primarch, but due to their such deep delusion, coupled with their incredible power, it became sort of real because they bought into their hype that much. It could have also been coupled with belief in him by others who thought he was a primarch, and leading to a sort of positive feedback loop.
It could go a long way to explaining, why marines that specialize in decimating and terrorizing their enemies where chosen, since, if people were too scared to believe, they couldn't empower the false primarch.
I personally hope they don't flesh this one out. Our imagination is better than the potential explanation and GW track record at the moment for lore is abysmal. There's too much vagueness, so GW would have to drip feed details like mention in passing a chapter that was expunged by the pentarchy. So they'd probably mess it up.
That said, I would like a loose end tied off in Arik Taranis from the heresy. Thunder warriors commanders were known as 'primarchs' so maybe he took up the title. How he gained leadership over 11 space marine chapters though would be a truly epic story in and of itself. Maybe he got help from Fabius Bile...?
Could have been a thunder warrior leader aka a Primarch. Yes that was their title in lore
Ushotan did survive Mt Arrat to take place in the Palace Coup (killed by Valdor). Ghota survived into the Horus heresy and worked on Marine gene seed to extend his life/save other Thunder Warriors from genetic degradation. The Plenty of room for other Thunder Warriors to have survived other battles and melted into the background for a time to pop up again later.
Would make sense that a Thunder Warrior could pull the Primarch facade, physically bigger. Would have knowledge of the Emperor no one else would from unification. Not Astartes built (no second heart/other space marine organs) and what chapters if any in the Imperium would know about the physical makeup of the Primarch’s.
@@thatonegreenguy2842Given Ushotan managed to flat out give problems for Valdor in battle, Thunder Warrior Primarchs alone would be a serious problem for 5 chapters to deal with.
Well, Primarchs have an aura of warp-demigod charisma. Sending chapters that ARE ABSOLUTELY UNHINGED and scare THE LIVING FUCK out everyone... seems like a good go-to.
He was a clone of Ezekiel Abaddon who rejected the taint of chaos and seeing the foul perversion of the emperors dream rallied many space marines to his cause to reform the imperium.
For the first video I've seen of you I love your way of making lore videos I'm definitely gonna listen to you more
It's CHarnal with a hard H like Charbroil or Charcoal. A Charnal house is where graveyards would burn old corpses when they ran out of room. So they share the char root
Might be a lost one or a clone. Since Primarchs have an aura that gives them some control over the Marines
Badab War is also early war. Like before the Heresy was the main focus Badab War was. The Badab War was the big plot point before Sisters of Battle existed.
The Charnel guard should be renamed to the Carnal guard as the implication of them guarding against their own lower nature would fit better
The Executioners looked at the Charchardons and said "Fuck it we ballin'" during the Badab War. This humors me tremendously.
The False Primarch was the only surviving Primarch of the Thunder Warriors (source: trust me bro)
Ferris Mannis' head on a robot is now my personal head canon
Dominion Zephon ends up founding the Charnel Guard in the third founding. They are 100% a BA successor chapter.
If I had to guess, the false primarch was a man who was charasmatic enough and caring enough that people flocked to him based on those two qualities alone. He valued the lives of not just his fellow marines, but of the people in the worlds he ruled over. That's probably why the high lords used marines that were known for horrific and uncaring actions against him. Killing and causing fear amoungst the populous was just another strategy of war that the false primarch would feel the need to respond to every time. Except unlike sanguinius who could legit micromanage his way through most of it, this guy couldn't.
It would definetly be an interesting story to watch this false primarch slowly lose his mind watching the people he cared for be torn apart. Proper grimdark.
I could be wrong, but to my knowledge the Blood Angels' gene-seed is the third most unstable loyalist gene-seed with the two most unstable being the Space Wolves' and the Salamanders' gene-seed
I would love to see a discussion panel with you, MajorKill, and Valrak! Could I be so lucky to have three of my favorite 40k juggernauts in one video!?
Ugh majorcringe
Honestly, I don't think the three would bounce off each other very well
Fun fact (if no one already beat me to it lol): The Charnel Guard were founded by Dominion Zephon of the Blood Angels after the Heresy. Zephon was a pretty chill dude until i think 3 or all 4 of his limbs got taken off by Eldar, and he got sent by Sanguinius to be the BA’s primary representative on Terra. Dude was an absolute badass in helping with the War in the Webway, being a chill dude if a bit melancholic and subtly full of fuck-mad rage at his handicapped state with shitty augmetics. Man could play the harp so well it made mutants weep, comforted imperial children made into refugees by the Heresy, became buddy-cops with Arkhan Land, charged a daemon-possessed Mechancium facsimile of a primarch, and made an Imperial Knight house matriarch blush when he came to her rescue. It’s also noted that, while all blood angels have fangs, Zephon’s were distinctively long and pronounced, something which carried on to the Charnel Guard. Ngl one of my favorite characters.
I always thought this bit of lore was great for homebrewing story ideas and bits of lore. For example, I made this a devastating defeat for my homebrew chapter, the Angelic Stars, who were knocked out of the war after being sent in on their own by the High Lords of Terra early on.
It would definitely be a fun thought experiment to lay out the War of False Primarch's plot. Who was he? Who were the chapters that sided with him? How did the war go down? Its such a neat concept that I'm genuinely surprised there's so little lore on it.
Curling my toes watching this
The real False Primarch was the friends you made along the way.
Malibron. Rainbow Warriors. Deathstrike Marines.
Charnel guard sound almost like a dark angels chapter the way you phrased it.
I think it was just Rogal Dawn's spare hand. In a hand sized suit of armour, complete with fingy helmet that it used to do sock puppet mouth style speeches.
False Primarch, or a lost Primarch? Only the dead will ever know...
I think it could have been one of Cawl's experiments gone rogue
The theory I subscribe to with the war of the false primarch is that fabius bile did what he does and made another primarch like horus or the other one he created. If we knew which chapters defected and who they came from, we could even know why they left. Maybe 11 imperial fist successors followed the false clone of rogal dorn
Imagine all those guys have on some sort of level of traitor geneseed
Writing this before I watch, THIS IS GONNA BE SO HEAT HOLY FUCK
Physical scars heal, but all of those worlds will have nightmares and tell stories of how the Emperor’s Angels slaughtered each other. That’s why I think they sent fear based chapters.
Chapter master of Carcharodons Tyberos the red wake is actually a substantially massive Astartes... so maybe even he learned something from that false primarch to make himself so big...
Be biggest twist is that it was just The Changeling causing a war for the lols
11. He had 11 chapters. Praise Malice
Bro that Flesh Eater in the arts really living up to his name.
The War of the False Primarch was not retconned per se, but it was mostly abandoned because of the lore that was developed during the Horus Heresy series. Right up to Lion, Son of the Forest, much is made about the psychological affect primarchs have on the Astartes. Not just their own gene father, but any Primarch. Dante even says when he meets Lion that he knew Lion was the real deal because of the “bearing” a Primarch has, which Dante recognized from meeting Guilliman. The Imperial Fists under Courland who went to find Vulkan during the War of the Beast were in awe of Vulkan just from seeing him. Azrael knew the Lion was the Lion because his “blood was singing”.
Therefore, it makes it rather hard to believe that other Space Marines were unable to recognize an imposter. It just runs counter to what we know of the effects Primarchs have on people, even if the person never met a Primarch before. More likely, this was just blatant heresy that the heretics attempted to cloak with a baseless claim. That would explain the choice of chapters sent to deal with them. It was a message to other chapters: don’t play stupid games, unless you want to win stupid prizes.
False Primarch could have been a Thunder Warrior. Physically larger than a normal Marine. They would have first/secondhand knowledge of the Emperor from Unification/Early Imperium no one else would. Not possessing any of the Astartes organs (Thunder Warriors were genetically modified similar to the Custodians but less ‘refined’), what chapters after the Heresy and disappearance/loss of the all the Primarchs would know what exactly went into their creation?
Ushotan survived Mt Arrat but was killed later (with a force of Thunder Warriors and rebels) by Valdor. A Thunder Warrior helped organize a rebellion against the Emperor. Ghota survived into the Heresy and studied Marine Gene Seed to try and save himself and other Thunder Warriors from genetic degradation.
During the crusade/heresy era Marines did know that the Primarch was basically a different type of Astartes (knew they had two hearts etc) but also mentioned multiple times that they had a very limited understanding of the physiology of the Primarchs when it came to trying to mend injuries/help them recover.
Suddenly a huge guy with charisma (no Astartes programming + fully developed human personality) shows up talking about his adventures with the Emperor from the Crusade. Tells everyone that he knows the next move. Practically insane and gets wiped by first concentrated resistance effort by Imperium. Sound like a good way to go out in any Thunder Warriors’s book.
The reason why only 5 chapters won against 11 chapters is cause 4 of them attacked the main planet with the Primarch on it , while the Red Talons were doing the Autek Morr thing and were just throwning moons at the rest of the occupied planets.
About the false Primarchs, the real options are:
- A very convincing Omegon poser
- A clone with some kind of surrogate "soul juice"
- Chaos turning some marine into a prime (happened once if i'm not wrong, something related to Mephiston)
In any case, those 11 chapters were chumps if those 5 did wipe them out.
Would definitely like a book series on this event. Seems like the Scouring is probably gonna be next that the Heresy is done so maybe we'll get the False Primarch after that.
Terror tactics would probably help dispel the idea that the False Primarch was a Primarch.
In sons of the hydra the ‘primarch’ of the alpha legion returns and is revealed to be a c’tann shard. Many of the alpha legion still consider themself loyalist. The 11 rebelling chapters could be all from one successor chapter and so the appearance of a previously dead primarch could have incited them to rebellion
I would kill for a book about war of the false primarch.
Do you remember the War of the False Primarch?
Pepperidge farm doesn't... heresy charges are bad news.
I hate the idea that everything like this is almost always chaos. Like "And it was revealed that it was actually the changeling."
Instead, i think it owykd be cool if the False Primarch was actually Alpharius, or Omegon, depending on who actually died, and he PURPOSEFULLY strategically led those 11 chaoters to their death because of some currently unkown reason. Which would be especily cool if Omegon was actually loyal pretending to be a traitor
Good to see that more and more people delve into the subject, although we don't have much to read about it. For all interested, I can recommend a nice fan project about this war. The name is +Some Things Are Best Left Forgotten+
I am currently trying to watch every video you posted
question: "Who Was the False Primarch" answer: some jacked up roid raged space marine apparently.
CHarnel Guard. I assume the name refers to a Charnal House, a building where bodily remains or bones are stored; it can also refer to a particularly violent place as well.
A little sad you didn’t mention the Charnel Guard’s founder, Dominion Zephon.
The Red Talons aren’t unlike the Iron Hands at all, they’re just the most transparent about how every Son of Ferrus feels. Iron Hands always get described in other faction’s books as being Spock levels of logical/tactical, but when you actually get to an Iron Hand PoV when they’re in melee or charging they’re out there with the fury of a Black Templar. The main difference between the Xth and Templars being the Iron Hands preference for ruthlessly wiping out their enemies versus glorious and honorable combat. The Red Talons are just the only Iron Xth who use their hate of traitors to bury their hate of themselves
This, finally someone said brother
Charnel guard are one of the original successor chapters. Dominion zephon, a blood angel who served during the heresy, kicked that one off after the heresy ended and the legions were split to 1000 max. They are 200% a blood angels successor
The false primarch was surviving Raptor Marine librarian whose geneseed mutated in a attempt to reverse engineer his geneseed, to the point that it started replacing host cells with donor cells.
Small note - the charnel guard is definitely a blood angels successor. They were founded by dominion zephon, noted blood angels hero of the heresy. There does seem to be some conflict with their progenitors, as the blood angels do not recognise them as successors. They did show up for the big bash on baal tho.
I bet the grey knights were there too, they just couldnt be kept on record so theyd stay secret.