I have never understood the edge retention hype. Most knife blades that I use everyday, are in my multi-tool. Currently it's a Swisstool X. I love how this steel only requires a few passes on my EDC Victorinox sharpening rod to be hair popping sharp again. I recall Leatherman's 420HC blades to be just as easy to touch up. I have owened one blade with S30V from Benchmade, and it was a 940. I used that blade like I currently do with my MT blade, and that thing was the worst knife to try and sharpen. I felt that the time it took to resharpen the S30V to the same level of sharpness I can get with Victorinox's multi-tool steel or Leatherman's 420HC, was not worth the cost. The fixed blade I frequently use has 52100 steel, and the maker says it was heat treated to HRC 60. I have used this blade outdoors, and it definitely does hold a nice edge after cutting a lot of natural materials, yet what is amazing is I passed the edge along the same Victorinox shapening rod, and after five passess each side the edge is screaming sharp again. This experience is what has led me to not be super enthusiastic about the super steel bandwagon. Personally I think the hate for 8Cr13MOV is because it's a Chinese stainless steel. You mentioned AUS8 being an equivalent steel to 8Cr13MOV. Isn't AUS8 a Japanese stainless steel, and correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't that the the predominatnt steel of choice for Cold Steel knives? I like the ponts you make with data graphs. There will always be haters, and it seems like steel choice is almost becomig a status symbol, kind of reminding me of middle school where you had to have a certain brand of sneaker, or you were picked on. Thank you for sharing.
As one of those guys who do appreciate edge retention alot, I can say that for me personally its multiple things that does it. For something like kitchen knives or edc knives, having that increased edge retention means I can maintain my knives with non abrasives like a leather strop for a long, long time before they need to be resharpened again. Which obviously means I spend less time on maintenance and the knife has a much longer life span since less steel needs to be taken off it. It also happens that steels with good edge retention often have a very good cutting feel too, for those of us who care about that. For survival/bushcraft/sport knives, I also appreciate the edge retention because in most cases the knife never needs to be sharpened in the field. Why have a knife thats easy to sharpen while out there when you can have one that doesnt need to be sharpened out there at all? And in the cases where it is needed, the appropriate sharpening equipment is cheap, easy to use and fits in any backpack. I think steels like 8cr and 420hc absolutely has a place though, and they beat the crap out of super steels in cost effectiveness. I'm just explaining why I personally do like my edge retention since you said you dont understand the hype.
8Cr is the Chinese AUS8 and AUS8 is the Japanese 440B. (okay not 100% accurate but close enough) So 8Cr is a little harder than 440A because of the MoV aspect. For 99% of people 8Cr is going to get the job done for them. Steel Snobs are always going complain about steel that aren't the latest and greatest. Toughness has more to do with shock resistance I was stunned by how tough 8Cr. Really great run down! For me a super steel, is a steel that is easy to maintain and can take a beating. Most of today's so called super steels fail in the first aspect (not easy to maintain. Again. Great show. Really enjoyed your explanation!
Many of the folks (steel guys/gals) who need and use a sharp edge all day everyday may indeed call 8Cr13MoV junk steel but for many of us it suits our needs quite well in a pocket knife and many fixed blades. Certainly it makes an excellent "first time buyer/user" steel to then compare others to. Learning to sharpen and ease of sharpening is another advantage it it. Personally after trying out a Schrade knife similar to yours I was so impressed I bought 5 in the SCHF series to kick around and use for all outdoor and firewood building tasks, great blades.
I have it in the Harbor Freight, Gordon 3.4" Blade foldable Pocket Knife. It's lasted me About 2 years so far but I lost it yesterday so I went back to Harbor Freight and bought another one. It holds an edge pretty good and can easily be sharpened again and again with a regular kitchen knife honing steel.
You know if you're cutting boxes every day, all day, then yeah, I'd want the edge retention of a super steel, but every day, use the old Steels are just fine. Thanks, James, for your comments.
Love 8Cr & D2! Great, functional, and affordable steels in my book. Like others have said, many of the people obsessed with the ever-shifting goalposts of 'super steels' are getting played.
8cr and D2 are great budget steels and both are perfectly serviceable so long as they are done decently... Don't kid your self in super steels, go get you some golden CO Spyderco done up s90v and use it for a month and tell me there isnt a massive edge retention difference between the two... 8cr, aeb-l, 14c will all get me thru about a day before they are needing touch ups on the strop or ceramic rod, good D2 will get me through about 2 days... S90v will get me thru about 10-12 days before I need to touch it up there is no comparison.. even well done s30v will give me a 4-5 days without needing to see the strop or ceramic rod. Super steels most definitely have their place but 154cm is probably what's in my pocket the most as it will get me through 2 days and a couple stropping passes and it's back popping hairs. The haters on 8cr are just doing it because that's what they hear their favorite TH-camrs saying. They aren't saying it because they have used it to where the steel was the limiting factor as most people don't (I make a living with a pocket knife in my hand so I do a ton of cutting daily at work and home) they are just repeating what they hear.. if you are using the knife so much that the steel is limiting you thats when it's time to go to a higher performance steel but that's very few people. 8cr is PLENTY for most knife carrying people yet they will all scream that 8cr sucks and they need a better steel. It's sad how much people are sheep and follow exactly along with anyone they look up to.
Fantastic video Michael… I have a Spyderco tenacious in 8cr…. Had it since soon after they first came out…. Been impressed with it from day one…. Never been unduly concerned with the whole super steel thing… don’t really need it for how I use my knives…. And the definition of super steel is a ever changing beast anyway 😃 Thanks brother and Happy New Year to you and your family 😎🙏🏻
Hi Rasputin: A nice steel ramble. 8CR hits a real sweet spot in my opinion. I think most people that complain about it don’t really use it. They might be surprised if they actually tried it as an EDC. 👍👍
I'd love to send some of these super steel guys two identical knives, one in aebl and one in 20cv and see if they could tell me which is which from actual use. I cant, and I've done alot of testing with 3 identical knives one in aebl, one in m390, and one in magnacut. They all lost that really shaving sharp crispy edge at exactly the same time and I would have had to cut all day to dull any of them. The aebl stropped up with a few quick swipes right back to shaving sharp while the others took much more work. Geometry is king.
And at the thickness these makers are grinding their knives to, any steel is tough. If you wanted to take advantage of a steels toughness, you'd grind it thinner so it cuts better, otherwise, what's the point?
@jusme8060 Exactly 👍. Most steel is developed for industrial use. They're characteristics matter in that context. Knife manufacturers adopt Steels based on those characteristics. The characteristics of steel depend on their chemical makeup and heat treatment. Just this week, I was looking at knives with CV 20 (M390) and noticed the HRC was 55-59. The manufacturers were not properly treated to treat CV20, and it won't achieve its superior super steel quality. All the steels you mentioned are stainless. If you were a lobster fisherman and used a fixed blade to cut bait every day, you'd notice the difference between AEB-L and magnacut on day one. The AEB-L would stain immediately. Magnacut excels in salt water. The only advantage any user is going to notice from Super Steels is edge retention. And that will only happen if a manufacturer properly heat treats the steel. Thanks brother 🙏 you've said what is so true. Most people couldn't tell the difference in the Steels they use.
Yep, too soft a steel, no matter how much carbides is like play-dough with marbles in it. It'll be hard to sharpen on a sander but get dull because it'll mush the apex first. Best to go for a harder steel so it can hold them in place, and if you go for less carbides and more hardness you can get higher toughness at said hardness, so you can put it at a finer angle and not have it chip as easily. Definitely agree about the blade thickness thing, even D2 or 1095 is perceived as tough, and it's really not, it's just the geometry. I bought some steel in as thin as 1/16th inch to try making some knives from, because thin is sharp, and my mora basic in thin 2mm 1095 is plenty tough enough already, 80crv2 would be much tougher even at higher hardness. @@rasputinscastle
Great video. One of the things I've always told my students is to never underestimate any steel. 8cr as many other budget steels are very decent steels. Particularly if you need a tougher steel than 8cr is a great option just as you mentioned.🙂👌👍
Nothing wrong at all with 8Cr. I like it and it has always performed every task that I need it to perform without any problem (like nearly every other knife steel). The whole “edge retention” thing is way way way overhyped. People that bash on every steel that’s not a super steel are being played and robbed by knife manufacturers and the joke’s on them! Good stuff as always brother👊🏻
8CR13MOV is a great budget steel. Easy to maintain and very stainless. I actually like 440A as a budget steel and it is worse. It's easy to maintain and I am not a heavy user. I have a collection of high end steels and enjoy the performance, not the sharpening, LOL.
Just don't let them get dull. I sharpen my super Steels every week. Usually, it only takes a few swipes on ceramic. Thanks for your comments. Other viewers read them and learn from it. 😊
Larrin will be/is currently doing testing on 8cr. BBB has been posting a ton of cool pics on the official Spyderco forum lately, one of which I believe is the microstructure of 8cr. I'll never go out of my way to get 8cr, but it also doesn't stop me from getting a knife if I otherwise like it. It's a perfectly fine steel.
I think one of the problems with 8cr13 is the amount of wiggle room in the composition that allows different manufacturers to use different ranges of elements and still be able to call it 8cr13, so aside from heat treat it's kind of hard to know what you're getting. I've found this to be the case in the varied performance I've gotten among different models of knives even from the same manufacturer (ie Kershaw). One of my sons gifted me a knife in this steel several years ago that performs somewhat respectably and I still use as a back up camp knife, but I have another 8cr knife I purchased myself a few years later that is absolutely abysmal and now sits in my junk drawer. Seems like a roll of the dice on reliability as to the knife manufacturer and where they sourced their steel.
@krazykat64 excellent points. 👍. Of course, the elephant in the room is heat treatment. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. They were good ones. 🙂
On the blades that have the longer edge retention you just have to minimize your torquing of the blade to keep the chips out of it it's similar to using ceramic blades
@MrDelvoughn That's a good point, Delvoughn. One of the legitimate uses for Super Steels would be in a survival situation. But it would be difficult to sharpen and easy to sharpen 8cr13mov as well as 1095. Good points, brother 👏 👍 🙂
What about the 7Cr17MoV stainless steel? I see some Coast knives in that steel. I have some chinese knives in 440C and see microscopic chipping on the edge on them after sharpening with an fixed angle sharpener and 600 grit "diamond" chinese stone. Coast says that 7Cr17 model is hardened to 57-58 HRC. As they confirmed me that. Now I believe the US companies claims but would not trust at all the chinese claims of 58-60 HRC for their 440C knife. However I manage to get cuts into glass dishes if I press hard with the 440C (60 HRC?) chinese knife. Normally if you can scratch glass an knife is 61 HRC or more.
@9mmfederalrimmed235 so 7cr17MOV has everything that 8CR does. Except for carbon, it has more of everything else. I'd except 7CR to be more corrosion resistant and a tad tougher than 8CR. Great for an outdoor knife, but 8CR probably holds an edge longer and has a keeper edge. Chromium will bond with carbon, keeping the carbon from being free in the steel. This will cause the steel to be softer had a larger grain structure. So Steels with high Chromium like 7CR will have very rough irregular edges. While 8Cr has a fine edge. Properly heat treating steel is a major problem today. Many brands have been shown to not have the HRCs advertised. Finally, the Chinese have a habit of calling 8CR13MOV, 440C.
8 or 7 cr 13 or 14 and d2 work great.. u have to put it away wet to get rust and as long as u dont cut drywall 99% of folks dont have to do much more then touch up sharpening to factory form.. as sumone who goes outta there way to use knives inappropriately even thru buck 420hc punches above its weight class ive never found a reason or need to have a blade more expensive then what I've mentioned.. id also like to note that anyone ive seen buying/carrying/blogging about any steel considered more premium then the steels ive mentioned use knives to cut paper and cardboard maybe even shave arm hair.. premium steels excel at those 3 tasks and dudes who use sharpened metal as a way to think there showing that they are indeed men... as a carpenter of 20 years i can confidently say when a dude hops out a brand new pickup has a $300 pocket knife and wants brag about how he's got NVGs and a sbr permit for his truck gun he's saying the quiet part out loud.. i hope men like that get told there real men by there wives frequently... they are just really annoying when we're trying to get in ànd out and paid when they call us to do man work at there house...
I think alot of budget steels get a bad rap because they are often found in cheaper products where less care was taken with the fit and finish, heat treatment and geometry. One could do something about all of that and make a really nice and well performing knife with something like 8cr, but that would drive up the final price which kinda defeats the purpose of the budget steel to begin with. But the point is, just because alot of the products you find this steel in is designed and manufactured to be affordable doesnt mean the steel itself is inherently bad!
Great video. Personally i probably wouldn't by a knife in 8cr13mov because i view it as on of the lower quality budget steels and think for only a little bit more money you can get a knife with significantly higher quality "budget" steel. Something i really love about non super steels (like 8cr13mov) though is how easy they are to sharpen. My edc folder ive been carrying for years is in 14c28n and i absolutely love how i can take it from dull enough to rip paper to hair popping sharp in literally about about 30 seconds. I've also got a knife in k390, and that thing... well... lets just say it takes a while to sharpen. The softer steels on the other hand, you can sharpen anywhere on anything and thats really dam handy because no matter how good the steel, all knives get blunt and sometimes you need to touch them up on the go, which you can't quickly and easily do with a lot of those fancy super steels.
@Torquemada71. yeah, I wish 14C28N was the standard budget steel. CPM 154 is my favorite. It doesn't hold an edge as long S Steels, but long enough, and gets wicked sharp, easy. Thanks for checking it out. 🙂
My primary issue with 8Cr13/14MoV Is that it’s less stainless, less tough and has worse edge retention over steels like Nitro V, 14C28N and AEB-L While 8Cr13 is fine on a knife that’s less then 25$ On even a 35$ knife, it’s terrible It has similar toughness as XHP, even though it has significantly less carbides It’s edge retention kinda starts to slim off around 59 HRC, getting it to 61, which requires Cryo, which adds cost, doesn’t give it much edge over other steels 8Cr13 isn’t a “bad steel” because it doesn’t work It’s a bad steel because even other “value” steels, low carbide stainless steels, are just so much better 9Cr18 Nitro V 14C28N 12C27N BD1N AR-RPM9 All can be found at around the 30-40$ mark Yet are better in nearly every way, especially 14C28N and AR-RPM9 8Cr13 is a crutch for higher margins Same for 420HC, very tough, but do yourself a favor and get a better steel so you have a sharp edge at the end of the day for at least a week
@bornonthebattlefront4883 very good comments 👏 Well written and thought out. All very good points and true. I use a lot of different knives, but my goto is a cold steel Recon in S35VN. The steel has performed phenomenally. My favorite steel is CPM 154 because of its fine edge and ease of sharpening. The only difference most folks notice in Steels is edge retention. For most people, they'd rather pay $25 than $40 for a knife. Far fewer people will pay $100+ for knives. So the purpose of the video is to let people know about the steel, not to recommend a steel. For me it's worth the extra money for better steel, but for most, I don't think that's true. Thanks again for your excellent comments. 👍😊
When i was a teen, AUS-8 & equivalents was the best i could afford. 440A, 420J2 and HC was common place for affordable knives which companies like Cold Steel excelled in heat treating.
Some folks don't want to be bothered with sharpening thier knives.Silly to not know or want to sharpen your tools.Dull is dangerous when it comes to certain tools.
@robertmanore9797 Yeah, a lot of people don't know how sharpen knives. Kinda crazy. My son in law is a Marine and can't sharpen a knife. You're right, Robert 👍
I’m sure perfectly heat treated 8cr is great to use. I have a couple knives in it that are awesome users. I have a few that aren’t, too! Seems something that could be easy to screw up, especially if trying to save some production cost on a run of budget knives
Budget users will short-cut heat treatments. I've heard complaints about cold steel and spyderco . Although I've never had problems. Thanks for your comments. It all helps.
@adriancastellano3356 You know Adrian, I'm 65. I have a lot of years behind a blade. I do like Super Steels, but I'm happy to use 8cr13mov, too. If a knife steel is properly heat treated and tempered. It will serve you well. Thanks for your comments, brother 🙏
It is interesting those lamenting the use of 8cr13MOV (and other "low end" steels) by companies value spidy-flickyness and trendy steel etchings on the tang as the highest of virtues. I would bet a majority of warranty issues companies deal with are toughness and corrosion related so it makes perfect sense to favor those virtues above edge retention. I would further postulate that most of those complaining are unable to sharpen the wonder-steels to their potential anyway and that the majority of their knife tasks could be accomplished with kindergarten scissors.
If you say it long enough, it must be true. Don't you know you have to spend $200+ to get the best steel? Among the top 7 rated steels, including all categories is 420HC, 14C28,and AEB-L, which is the particle metallurgy equivalent of 8CR13! 3V and 52100 have the same 9 rating. 🤪
What no one will tell you about it is that it is a good, well-balanced steel. It kills me how the edc crowd will complain about its edge retention while using their pocket knife to cut a big refrigerator box down into 6"×6" squares.
I think it all depends on what you are using the knife for, hence a reason why there are so many types of steel for knives to begin with. For most edc carry, any of the 400 series, AUS 6, 8, or 10, and 5cr and up will peel that apple or open that package. Like anything else in this world, everyone has the “better product”. One could go as far as saying that we’ve been conditioned to believe certain things for whatever gain be it profit or popularity, etc. Take the cr series as an example. There is ample proof that it is near the same as others believed to be “preferred or superior “ steels but it’s Chinese made so it must undoubtedly be junk. That is conditioning. One brand over another…conditioning. Will it dull faster? Take a break and hone it then. Have we forgotten that Neanderthal used flint and stone? There are many ways to accomplish the same task. Buy, use, and be proud of what you can afford and/or like and enjoy life. You’re alive until such time as you’re not!
Cliff Stamp has been saying this forever. Larrin Thomas recently did a full study and confirmed this. The stuff is indeed a whole heck of a lot better than what so many people say about it.
@@rasputinscastle Unfortunately Pete's testing is a joke. Edge retention slicing rope is so highly dependent on apex finish that I can get a dollar store knife to slice more 10mm sisal rope than most of the knives he has tested.
@rockets4kids I've heard him agree with you. No matter how precisely you sharpen a knife. Variation will always be a factor. The data point remains, however. I've never felt the edge retention was horrible. It seemed pretty comparable to 1095 to me. The hysteria around 8cr13MoV seems to be just that. Thanks for your comments 🙂
You do realize that most the hard "S" series steels like s30-s110v (s125v is typically ran 62-65hrc so I'm not including it) are ran at 58-60hrc just like good 8cr is ran at 58-60.. that is the same hardness the difference in wear resistance is from carbide volume and grain structure not that they are "harder steels" when you mentioned M4, M4 is typically ran 63-65hrc so that steel is actually much harder than the "S series" steels.
@Edcreviewer One, the goal in the steel videos is to educate knife users on the properties of a steel that's not scientific and easy to understand. Two, hardness is a property achieved not inherent in a steel. So improperly heat treated S30V can be just as soft as 8CR13MOV. My understanding of S30V is ideal. Hardness is 61HRC with a range of 60-64. The only thing I disagree with in your statement is S Steels being heat treated the same Hardness as 8CR13MOV. I'd be surprised if most 8CR13MOV would test higher than 57HRC. Any S steel treated below 60 is improperly heat treated. Which I think you'd agree is the major problem with knife companies today, improper heat treats. When you're talking steel, you're talking chemistry, and there are a lot of variables. Grain structure is the bottom line. The alloys you add and the heat treatments applied are all geared to getting to that bottom line. I enjoyed your comments, we are definitely on the same page. My presentation may have been simplistic, but I think you see why.
Manufactured by the right factory and Handled and heat treated by the right maker, 8cr can be ok. That said, there are many TH-cam vids that show 8cr failing under moderate load. Every steel is good for something: when steels are not used for the right application, they either have less than stellar performance or they fail. For instance, an axe made of very hard, brittle steel isn’t a really good fit. Every steel is unfortunately a compromise. That said, there are many mid range steels, 14c28n vg10 and 154cm for mid range non cpm steels and xhp, s35, spy27 for higher mid range, m390/ elmax for even higher range steels that have better all around virtues. Then there are the non stainless steels like cruwear 3v 4v k390 m4 rex45 which are beasts, but will patina and even rust if not properly maintained, but are super tough and hold an edge extremely well, and then there are the amazingly stainless and edge holding Steels like maxamet , s90/110v and such that work great as blades but don’t use them to pry. The real question is: why buy 8cr when you can buy 14c28n 154 vg10 rpm9 aus10 for just a few bucks more and they perform so much better?
There is even better steel which is 8cr15mov which has the keenest edge similar to 14c28n.Compare to the regular 8cr13mov,the 8cr15mov is twice as good due to more chromium I guess.
@ThirdoptionJCSU Thanks for the imput, brother 🙏. The purpose of the video is to let users know about the steel in their knife. They're many better Steels than 8cr13mov . I'm of the opinion, the most important thing in a knife steel is heat treatment and tempering.
Benchmade are American made knives. I know of no Benchmades that use 8CR13mov. Can you put a link to one that lists this steel from Benchmade? I'm not saying they haven't used it but I'm calling bullshit until I see it.
I can remember people complaining about Buck knives being hard to sharpen back in the late sixties and early seventies. Back then, knife companies didn’t say or make it known what steel they used. It was stainless or carbon and I never thought much more than that about it. Knife companies didn’t put steel ingredient lists on knife boxes. If you bought a knife and it was sharp and easy to sharpen you had a good knife. Someone calling 8Cr13MoV junk shows lack of common sense. Some of same the people calling it junk buy carbon steel knives, what sense does that make?🤔
I also think that as time has passed, companies just got better at heat treatments. I just look at these Steels like calibers for firearms. There's no perfect one. But you choose what's best for the job. For everyday use, the old steel is just fine. Thanks for adding to the conversation, my friend 🙏.
@@rasputinscastleTrue, although Gerber used vascowear (original ingot cru-wear), and they called it something else. Buck used 440c, 425m, 154cm, and 420hc as far as I know, and they always have had good heat treatment. But people were used to their Arkansas stones which already barely touch chrome carbides nevermind vanadium like in cru-wear.
I like 8cr13 its perfectly fine for most task and its a lot more reasonable cost wise. I've always thought that the steel snobs talk bad about it because it's mainly what the Chinese makers use and they just want to make everyone think they are somehow better than the people who just don't care. Lol 🙄🤷🏻♂️
@decal1751 It's really all you need in a pocket knife and better than the 420 steels 440C just marginally beats in in corrosion resistance. But if you want to sell a knife for $400, you have to convince people that it cuts better. Super Steels are better, but both cut and for $40. I'll take the 8cr13mov. By the way, there's only a $7 difference between most Super Steels and 8cr13mov. The most expensive Super Steel is only $14 more than 8cr13mov. Thanks for watching 👀
It is a crap steel i forgot my hunting knife by accident one time and had to gut an animal out. It was started off very sharp and was so dull half way through i literally had to use my axe to finish.
@sonofthunder7584 Well, that's true for most Steels. Super Steels lasts longer, for sure. I wonder how humans processed game for 10s of thousands of years without super Steels. Your point is taken brother, thanks for your comments. 😊
As much as I want a super super steel make magnacut, the value proposition is poor unless you make the knives yourself and already have a heat treat kiln, or are comparing a custom made knife in carbon steel vs magnacut for cost. If you're already paying much foe labour to a local maker, then it makes more sense, but for companies that upcharge a ton, no way. Costs too much for them to grind and finish and such. Truth is, my thin little 2mm mora knives in 1095 is already more than tough enough, despite its reputation, and hard to flex unless you try, and it cuts much better than the thicker 3mm+ steels people use. I've used s30 i borrowed, but it cuts just like any other knife. I have a cheap D2 folder for cardboard or such, but even that I'm unlikely to break, especially in a folder where it's not a comfy enough grip to go nuts with, plus you'll have a floppy knife in no time with prying. Balanced steels are best. They are hard and tough enough to take a finer edge if wanted, or thicker for a tough blade, and its not too hard to sharpen and dulls a little slower than carbon steels. If you look at larrin's charts, even basic steel starts at 250 cuts, and D2 or s30v is only 500 at the same hardness. You could also decrease your edge angle from 20dps to 15dps on the tough carbon steel at a slightly higher hardness and match the edge retention in use. Sure, super steels can do both better, but sharpening isnt too hard, and you can do a few passes side to side like a burr removal and you have a fresh sharp edge. No steel really holds its razor edge longer than another, unless its super hard (65hrc) and super tough.
It is funny how aus 8 gets a pass but 8cr is always trashed. The lowest steel i like to spend money on is d2. Its so cheap now and its everywhere. Just make sure its real d2. My go to steel is cts-xhp from cold steel and spyderco. I like s110v edge holding wise at 15,16 degrees it wont chip 17,18 just be careful
@danielduvall4154 The edge angle is a good point Daniel. Most people note the edge retention of hard Steels but totally miss the main advantage in a knife is being able to reduce the edge angle for sharpness. Thanks for watching 👀 🙂
Unless you're really lazy about taking care of your blades I think D2 is better in most ways, in my not so humble opinion I switched to D2 over a decade ago after daily usage and finding myself sharpening my newer blades much less. Like most things it's about the grind the blade geometry the heat treatment it's not just the steel itself but some steals have some advantages over others and the process if you just get that steal you're talking about and you turn it into powdered metallurgy and those tiny carbide suspended make for a pretty durable edge but most companies don't take that time and they just crank them out as fast as they can for profit but if you go to small knife maker they can get a lot more out of one of those then you would see from a mass produced result, right?
@adcaptandumvulgus4252 Yes, you're right all the way around. Especially manufacturers, not heat treating right. D2 at 59HRC is performing at the top of its potential. But most super Steels won't hit their potential till 62+ HRC.
I don't believe these charts really correlate the difference between stainless and carbon steel. On the chart it has 1095 below s35vn. In toughness. That right there is totally no what i find in real world use. I believe these graphs were made to sell his book. An push certain steels along. I personally prefer toughness over edge retention/wear resistance. I also choose ease of sharpening. Nobody likes to spend a hour fixing chips and reprofiling. Just my opinion from my observations. I find youtube and forums rarely live in reality. TH-cam has turned into a giant marketing campaign. Many welcome comments as long as they don't have any criticism. Like the guys that used to test affordable knives now try and pass off $300+ knives. Then on forums you have the people that pledge themselves to a brand. The brand can do nothing wrong. Meanwhile everything is twice as much but isn't even 1% better. Like i said just my observations. I mean what do i know a mechanic and metal fabricator for over 30 years.
No, I think you're spot on. You may be right about Dr. Larrin but I don't get that from his articles and video. He seems to argue the opposite. Like 8CR13MOV is tougher than S30V. There is a difference between science and real world applications. Defining the characteristics of a steel is one thing. What manufacturers do with it is a something else. In his steel comparison article he shows how the same steel from different manufacturers can be wildly different. That's something I've experienced in real life. Heat treatment is really important to achieve the potential of the steel. I'm with you on toughness. I mean at some point you have to sharpen steel so I'm good sharpening more often. Really appreciate your comments. I'm not the only one who reads them. The goal here is to provide good data points for my viewers, so I appreciate your comments. Feel to any time. Maybe we can use some of that 30 year steel experience. 👌😁😊
I believe the D2 and 1095 toughness, you don't need that much and tough knives are made thick enough that it doesn't matter how tough the steel is. Softer steel also rolls well before chipping and takes a permanent bend, which is very clear evidence that you should stop doing what you're doing. With harder steels it doesn't show much of anything before breaking, it just does. Either way, my mora in 2mm 1095 is plenty tough enough for my uses and that's in a fixed blade. It's still hard to bend in any real use, and I'd have to bend it a lot for that to break. If you want to do carbon steel at home, 1084 + 80crv2 is tougher and easier to harden without using water, and is tougher than 1095. The reason people complain about edge retention is they don't sharpen to an angle that maximizes the ability of the steel. Harder steel can hold a finer edge without permanent bending and takes more force to do so, and also higher toughness at that hardness it still has extra bend to it before breaking. Something like 52100 can get super hard, like 64+ HRC and be as tough as D2 or 1095, which is tough enough usually for smaller knives not meant for heavy chopping, so it holds a super sharp edge for longer.
@KwaPaN3R electrical Steels, used in motors, generators and transformers use silicon to reduce power loss. Vg-10, AEB-L, 154CM all have small % of Silcon in them as well as others.
Excellent video. I agree that we all need better education on different steel properties. Thanks Michael!
I have never understood the edge retention hype. Most knife blades that I use everyday, are in my multi-tool. Currently it's a Swisstool X. I love how this steel only requires a few passes on my EDC Victorinox sharpening rod to be hair popping sharp again. I recall Leatherman's 420HC blades to be just as easy to touch up.
I have owened one blade with S30V from Benchmade, and it was a 940. I used that blade like I currently do with my MT blade, and that thing was the worst knife to try and sharpen. I felt that the time it took to resharpen the S30V to the same level of sharpness I can get with Victorinox's multi-tool steel or Leatherman's 420HC, was not worth the cost.
The fixed blade I frequently use has 52100 steel, and the maker says it was heat treated to HRC 60. I have used this blade outdoors, and it definitely does hold a nice edge after cutting a lot of natural materials, yet what is amazing is I passed the edge along the same Victorinox shapening rod, and after five passess each side the edge is screaming sharp again.
This experience is what has led me to not be super enthusiastic about the super steel bandwagon. Personally I think the hate for 8Cr13MOV is because it's a Chinese stainless steel. You mentioned AUS8 being an equivalent steel to 8Cr13MOV. Isn't AUS8 a Japanese stainless steel, and correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't that the the predominatnt steel of choice for Cold Steel knives?
I like the ponts you make with data graphs. There will always be haters, and it seems like steel choice is almost becomig a status symbol, kind of reminding me of middle school where you had to have a certain brand of sneaker, or you were picked on. Thank you for sharing.
Yes, AUS 8 is a Japanese steel. Not exactly the same chemistry, but their performance is close. Thanks for your comments, brother 🙏
You'd like 14c28n and s30v is pretty easy to sharpen and even strop. I use DMT a lot but still use Arkansas stones with s30
As one of those guys who do appreciate edge retention alot, I can say that for me personally its multiple things that does it. For something like kitchen knives or edc knives, having that increased edge retention means I can maintain my knives with non abrasives like a leather strop for a long, long time before they need to be resharpened again. Which obviously means I spend less time on maintenance and the knife has a much longer life span since less steel needs to be taken off it. It also happens that steels with good edge retention often have a very good cutting feel too, for those of us who care about that.
For survival/bushcraft/sport knives, I also appreciate the edge retention because in most cases the knife never needs to be sharpened in the field. Why have a knife thats easy to sharpen while out there when you can have one that doesnt need to be sharpened out there at all? And in the cases where it is needed, the appropriate sharpening equipment is cheap, easy to use and fits in any backpack.
I think steels like 8cr and 420hc absolutely has a place though, and they beat the crap out of super steels in cost effectiveness. I'm just explaining why I personally do like my edge retention since you said you dont understand the hype.
I don't mind 8cr13 at all. Excellent info!!
Have a great year as well brother!
8Cr is the Chinese AUS8 and AUS8 is the Japanese 440B. (okay not 100% accurate but close enough) So 8Cr is a little harder than 440A because of the MoV aspect.
For 99% of people 8Cr is going to get the job done for them. Steel Snobs are always going complain about steel that aren't the latest and greatest. Toughness has more to do with shock resistance I was stunned by how tough 8Cr. Really great run down!
For me a super steel, is a steel that is easy to maintain and can take a beating. Most of today's so called super steels fail in the first aspect (not easy to maintain. Again. Great show. Really enjoyed your explanation!
Thanks, Tobias 🙏
Many of the folks (steel guys/gals) who need and use a sharp edge all day everyday may indeed call 8Cr13MoV junk steel but for many of us it suits our needs quite well in a pocket knife and many fixed blades. Certainly it makes an excellent "first time buyer/user" steel to then compare others to.
Learning to sharpen and ease of sharpening is another advantage it it. Personally after trying out a Schrade knife similar to yours I was so impressed I bought 5 in the SCHF series to kick around and use for all outdoor and firewood building tasks, great blades.
Thanks, that's great info!🙏
Thanks for this rather informative and enlightening video on 8cr13MoV steel; I learned a thing or two here. 👍Take care my friend and Cheers!
I have it in the Harbor Freight, Gordon 3.4" Blade foldable Pocket Knife. It's lasted me About 2 years so far but I lost it yesterday so I went back to Harbor Freight and bought another one. It holds an edge pretty good and can easily be sharpened again and again with a regular kitchen knife honing steel.
@@Jorge01234 I've never had any problems with it. Thanks Jorge🙏
To many EDC guys (Young) guys are knife steel snobs ,most of us don't do heavy tasks with are knifes good content.
You know if you're cutting boxes every day, all day, then yeah, I'd want the edge retention of a super steel, but every day, use the old Steels are just fine. Thanks, James, for your comments.
2:52 what knife is that
That's the Kershaw Natrix. Sorry for the delay, brother 🙏
Love 8Cr & D2! Great, functional, and affordable steels in my book. Like others have said, many of the people obsessed with the ever-shifting goalposts of 'super steels' are getting played.
@@Sanguivore Agreed 👍 Thanks for checking it out 🙏
8cr and D2 are great budget steels and both are perfectly serviceable so long as they are done decently... Don't kid your self in super steels, go get you some golden CO Spyderco done up s90v and use it for a month and tell me there isnt a massive edge retention difference between the two... 8cr, aeb-l, 14c will all get me thru about a day before they are needing touch ups on the strop or ceramic rod, good D2 will get me through about 2 days... S90v will get me thru about 10-12 days before I need to touch it up there is no comparison.. even well done s30v will give me a 4-5 days without needing to see the strop or ceramic rod. Super steels most definitely have their place but 154cm is probably what's in my pocket the most as it will get me through 2 days and a couple stropping passes and it's back popping hairs.
The haters on 8cr are just doing it because that's what they hear their favorite TH-camrs saying. They aren't saying it because they have used it to where the steel was the limiting factor as most people don't (I make a living with a pocket knife in my hand so I do a ton of cutting daily at work and home) they are just repeating what they hear.. if you are using the knife so much that the steel is limiting you thats when it's time to go to a higher performance steel but that's very few people. 8cr is PLENTY for most knife carrying people yet they will all scream that 8cr sucks and they need a better steel. It's sad how much people are sheep and follow exactly along with anyone they look up to.
Very good information, brother. Have a great day!
Thanks for this video!
@@TheChadWork2001 You betcha! 🙂
Excellent video
Thank you 🙏
Fantastic video Michael…
I have a Spyderco tenacious in 8cr…. Had it since soon after they first came out…. Been impressed with it from day one….
Never been unduly concerned with the whole super steel thing… don’t really need it for how I use my knives…. And the definition of super steel is a ever changing beast anyway 😃
Thanks brother and Happy New Year to you and your family 😎🙏🏻
Thanks, Sean. Good to see you on the live show. 👍
Hi Rasputin:
A nice steel ramble. 8CR hits a real sweet spot in my opinion. I think most people that complain about it don’t really use it. They might be surprised if they actually tried it as an EDC. 👍👍
Aaagree.👍
Good info
Thanks,Thomas 🙏
I'd love to send some of these super steel guys two identical knives, one in aebl and one in 20cv and see if they could tell me which is which from actual use. I cant, and I've done alot of testing with 3 identical knives one in aebl, one in m390, and one in magnacut. They all lost that really shaving sharp crispy edge at exactly the same time and I would have had to cut all day to dull any of them. The aebl stropped up with a few quick swipes right back to shaving sharp while the others took much more work. Geometry is king.
And at the thickness these makers are grinding their knives to, any steel is tough. If you wanted to take advantage of a steels toughness, you'd grind it thinner so it cuts better, otherwise, what's the point?
@jusme8060 Exactly 👍. Most steel is developed for industrial use. They're characteristics matter in that context. Knife manufacturers adopt Steels based on those characteristics.
The characteristics of steel depend on their chemical makeup and heat treatment.
Just this week, I was looking at knives with CV 20 (M390) and noticed the HRC was 55-59. The manufacturers were not properly treated to treat CV20, and it won't achieve its superior super steel quality.
All the steels you mentioned are stainless. If you were a lobster fisherman and used a fixed blade to cut bait every day, you'd notice the difference between AEB-L and magnacut on day one. The AEB-L would stain immediately. Magnacut excels in salt water.
The only advantage any user is going to notice from Super Steels is edge retention. And that will only happen if a manufacturer properly heat treats the steel.
Thanks brother 🙏 you've said what is so true. Most people couldn't tell the difference in the Steels they use.
Yep, too soft a steel, no matter how much carbides is like play-dough with marbles in it. It'll be hard to sharpen on a sander but get dull because it'll mush the apex first. Best to go for a harder steel so it can hold them in place, and if you go for less carbides and more hardness you can get higher toughness at said hardness, so you can put it at a finer angle and not have it chip as easily. Definitely agree about the blade thickness thing, even D2 or 1095 is perceived as tough, and it's really not, it's just the geometry. I bought some steel in as thin as 1/16th inch to try making some knives from, because thin is sharp, and my mora basic in thin 2mm 1095 is plenty tough enough already, 80crv2 would be much tougher even at higher hardness. @@rasputinscastle
Enjoy the skits, good info, just needs a bit more volume for us older Vets,
🍻 from 🇦🇺
@viktormogilin307 Thanks, Victor. Love my friends down under.🙏👍🇦🇺
Great video. One of the things I've always told my students is to never underestimate any steel. 8cr as many other budget steels are very decent steels. Particularly if you need a tougher steel than 8cr is a great option just as you mentioned.🙂👌👍
It's all about heat treatments and tempering. Thanks so much for your imput.🙏
Nothing wrong at all with 8Cr.
I like it and it has always performed every task that I need it to perform without any problem (like nearly every other knife steel).
The whole “edge retention” thing is way way way overhyped.
People that bash on every steel that’s not a super steel are being played and robbed by knife manufacturers and the joke’s on them!
Good stuff as always brother👊🏻
Thanks,and thanks for the swag.👌
@@rasputinscastle
You’re welcome!
8CR13MOV is a great budget steel. Easy to maintain and very stainless. I actually like 440A as a budget steel and it is worse. It's easy to maintain and I am not a heavy user. I have a collection of high end steels and enjoy the performance, not the sharpening, LOL.
Just don't let them get dull. I sharpen my super Steels every week. Usually, it only takes a few swipes on ceramic. Thanks for your comments. Other viewers read them and learn from it. 😊
@@rasputinscastle I maintain a great edge by stropping.
@rustyknifelover4463 it's best for the steel too.
Awesome video, buddy!
Thanks 🙏
Larrin will be/is currently doing testing on 8cr.
BBB has been posting a ton of cool pics on the official Spyderco forum lately, one of which I believe is the microstructure of 8cr.
I'll never go out of my way to get 8cr, but it also doesn't stop me from getting a knife if I otherwise like it. It's a perfectly fine steel.
Thanks, brother. Cedric and Ada have done testing on 8cr13 and it's pretty interesting 🤔
I think one of the problems with 8cr13 is the amount of wiggle room in the composition that allows different manufacturers to use different ranges of elements and still be able to call it 8cr13, so aside from heat treat it's kind of hard to know what you're getting. I've found this to be the case in the varied performance I've gotten among different models of knives even from the same manufacturer (ie Kershaw). One of my sons gifted me a knife in this steel several years ago that performs somewhat respectably and I still use as a back up camp knife, but I have another 8cr knife I purchased myself a few years later that is absolutely abysmal and now sits in my junk drawer. Seems like a roll of the dice on reliability as to the knife manufacturer and where they sourced their steel.
@krazykat64 excellent points. 👍. Of course, the elephant in the room is heat treatment. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. They were good ones. 🙂
On the blades that have the longer edge retention you just have to minimize your torquing of the blade to keep the chips out of it it's similar to using ceramic blades
I've never had a chipping problem, but experts say some are prone to it.
When you’re in the woods and you need to sharpen your knife a rock works great on this steel!
@MrDelvoughn That's a good point, Delvoughn. One of the legitimate uses for Super Steels would be in a survival situation. But it would be difficult to sharpen and easy to sharpen 8cr13mov as well as 1095. Good points, brother 👏 👍 🙂
What about the 7Cr17MoV stainless steel? I see some Coast knives in that steel. I have some chinese knives in 440C and see microscopic chipping on the edge on them after sharpening with an fixed angle sharpener and 600 grit "diamond" chinese stone.
Coast says that 7Cr17 model is hardened to 57-58 HRC. As they confirmed me that. Now I believe the US companies claims but would not trust at all the chinese claims of 58-60 HRC for their 440C knife.
However I manage to get cuts into glass dishes if I press hard with the 440C (60 HRC?) chinese knife. Normally if you can scratch glass an knife is 61 HRC or more.
@9mmfederalrimmed235 so 7cr17MOV has everything that 8CR does. Except for carbon, it has more of everything else.
I'd except 7CR to be more corrosion resistant and a tad tougher than 8CR. Great for an outdoor knife, but 8CR probably holds an edge longer and has a keeper edge. Chromium will bond with carbon, keeping the carbon from being free in the steel. This will cause the steel to be softer had a larger grain structure. So Steels with high Chromium like 7CR will have very rough irregular edges. While 8Cr has a fine edge.
Properly heat treating steel is a major problem today. Many brands have been shown to not have the HRCs advertised.
Finally, the Chinese have a habit of calling 8CR13MOV, 440C.
8 or 7 cr 13 or 14 and d2 work great.. u have to put it away wet to get rust and as long as u dont cut drywall 99% of folks dont have to do much more then touch up sharpening to factory form.. as sumone who goes outta there way to use knives inappropriately even thru buck 420hc punches above its weight class ive never found a reason or need to have a blade more expensive then what I've mentioned.. id also like to note that anyone ive seen buying/carrying/blogging about any steel considered more premium then the steels ive mentioned use knives to cut paper and cardboard maybe even shave arm hair.. premium steels excel at those 3 tasks and dudes who use sharpened metal as a way to think there showing that they are indeed men... as a carpenter of 20 years i can confidently say when a dude hops out a brand new pickup has a $300 pocket knife and wants brag about how he's got NVGs and a sbr permit for his truck gun he's saying the quiet part out loud.. i hope men like that get told there real men by there wives frequently... they are just really annoying when we're trying to get in ànd out and paid when they call us to do man work at there house...
@lenbones7940 Yeah, they all cut.🙂 Thanks for checking it out.
I think alot of budget steels get a bad rap because they are often found in cheaper products where less care was taken with the fit and finish, heat treatment and geometry. One could do something about all of that and make a really nice and well performing knife with something like 8cr, but that would drive up the final price which kinda defeats the purpose of the budget steel to begin with.
But the point is, just because alot of the products you find this steel in is designed and manufactured to be affordable doesnt mean the steel itself is inherently bad!
@kvernesdotten Well said, my friend. Thanks for watching 👀
Great video. Personally i probably wouldn't by a knife in 8cr13mov because i view it as on of the lower quality budget steels and think for only a little bit more money you can get a knife with significantly higher quality "budget" steel.
Something i really love about non super steels (like 8cr13mov) though is how easy they are to sharpen. My edc folder ive been carrying for years is in 14c28n and i absolutely love how i can take it from dull enough to rip paper to hair popping sharp in literally about about 30 seconds. I've also got a knife in k390, and that thing... well... lets just say it takes a while to sharpen. The softer steels on the other hand, you can sharpen anywhere on anything and thats really dam handy because no matter how good the steel, all knives get blunt and sometimes you need to touch them up on the go, which you can't quickly and easily do with a lot of those fancy super steels.
@Torquemada71. yeah, I wish 14C28N was the standard budget steel. CPM 154 is my favorite. It doesn't hold an edge as long S Steels, but long enough, and gets wicked sharp, easy. Thanks for checking it out. 🙂
Awesome video!
My primary issue with 8Cr13/14MoV
Is that it’s less stainless, less tough and has worse edge retention over steels like Nitro V, 14C28N and AEB-L
While 8Cr13 is fine on a knife that’s less then 25$
On even a 35$ knife, it’s terrible
It has similar toughness as XHP, even though it has significantly less carbides
It’s edge retention kinda starts to slim off around 59 HRC, getting it to 61, which requires Cryo, which adds cost, doesn’t give it much edge over other steels
8Cr13 isn’t a “bad steel” because it doesn’t work
It’s a bad steel because even other “value” steels, low carbide stainless steels, are just so much better
9Cr18
Nitro V
14C28N
12C27N
BD1N
AR-RPM9
All can be found at around the 30-40$ mark
Yet are better in nearly every way, especially 14C28N and AR-RPM9
8Cr13 is a crutch for higher margins
Same for 420HC, very tough, but do yourself a favor and get a better steel so you have a sharp edge at the end of the day for at least a week
@bornonthebattlefront4883 very good comments 👏 Well written and thought out. All very good points and true. I use a lot of different knives, but my goto is a cold steel Recon in S35VN. The steel has performed phenomenally. My favorite steel is CPM 154 because of its fine edge and ease of sharpening.
The only difference most folks notice in Steels is edge retention. For most people, they'd rather pay $25 than $40 for a knife. Far fewer people will pay $100+ for knives.
So the purpose of the video is to let people know about the steel, not to recommend a steel.
For me it's worth the extra money for better steel, but for most, I don't think that's true.
Thanks again for your excellent comments. 👍😊
@bornonthebattlefront4883 oh, check out this link th-cam.com/video/h7i3q1fHXNs/w-d-xo.htmlsi=OJGb49L-PlSEPHsu
When i was a teen, AUS-8 & equivalents was the best i could afford. 440A, 420J2 and HC was common place for affordable knives which companies like Cold Steel excelled in heat treating.
@@thaknobodi Yep, the heat treatment is the key. Thanks for watching 👀 🙂
Ease of sharpening should also be a factor in the chart.
Sure nough
Some folks don't want to be bothered with sharpening thier knives.Silly to not know or want to sharpen your tools.Dull is dangerous when it comes to certain tools.
@robertmanore9797 Yeah, a lot of people don't know how sharpen knives. Kinda crazy. My son in law is a Marine and can't sharpen a knife. You're right, Robert 👍
I’m sure perfectly heat treated 8cr is great to use. I have a couple knives in it that are awesome users. I have a few that aren’t, too! Seems something that could be easy to screw up, especially if trying to save some production cost on a run of budget knives
Budget users will short-cut heat treatments. I've heard complaints about cold steel and spyderco . Although I've never had problems. Thanks for your comments. It all helps.
👏👏👏👏👏
Yep, I agree with you.
@adriancastellano3356 You know Adrian, I'm 65. I have a lot of years behind a blade. I do like Super Steels, but I'm happy to use 8cr13mov, too. If a knife steel is properly heat treated and tempered. It will serve you well. Thanks for your comments, brother 🙏
The Japanese sk4 is nice too, sorta like cheap 52000
I do like Germany's version of it that they make in Solingen.
4116?
4116/x50cr15mov would be the German forged stainless.
It is interesting those lamenting the use of 8cr13MOV (and other "low end" steels) by companies value spidy-flickyness and trendy steel etchings on the tang as the highest of virtues. I would bet a majority of warranty issues companies deal with are toughness and corrosion related so it makes perfect sense to favor those virtues above edge retention. I would further postulate that most of those complaining are unable to sharpen the wonder-steels to their potential anyway and that the majority of their knife tasks could be accomplished with kindergarten scissors.
If you say it long enough, it must be true. Don't you know you have to spend $200+ to get the best steel? Among the top 7 rated steels, including all categories is 420HC, 14C28,and AEB-L, which is the particle metallurgy equivalent of 8CR13! 3V and 52100 have the same 9 rating. 🤪
What no one will tell you about it is that it is a good, well-balanced steel. It kills me how the edc crowd will complain about its edge retention while using their pocket knife to cut a big refrigerator box down into 6"×6" squares.
Yep, it's programming brother.
I think it all depends on what you are using the knife for, hence a reason why there are so many types of steel for knives to begin with. For most edc carry, any of the 400 series, AUS 6, 8, or 10, and 5cr and up will peel that apple or open that package. Like anything else in this world, everyone has the “better product”. One could go as far as saying that we’ve been conditioned to believe certain things for whatever gain be it profit or popularity, etc. Take the cr series as an example. There is ample proof that it is near the same as others believed to be “preferred or superior “ steels but it’s Chinese made so it must undoubtedly be junk. That is conditioning. One brand over another…conditioning. Will it dull faster? Take a break and hone it then. Have we forgotten that Neanderthal used flint and stone? There are many ways to accomplish the same task. Buy, use, and be proud of what you can afford and/or like and enjoy life. You’re alive until such time as you’re not!
Well said, brother 👏 👍
Cliff Stamp has been saying this forever. Larrin Thomas recently did a full study and confirmed this. The stuff is indeed a whole heck of a lot better than what so many people say about it.
Cedric & Ada did a lot of testing on it too, if you haven't seen it, the videos are interesting. Thanks for checking it out. 😀
@@rasputinscastle Unfortunately Pete's testing is a joke. Edge retention slicing rope is so highly dependent on apex finish that I can get a dollar store knife to slice more 10mm sisal rope than most of the knives he has tested.
@rockets4kids I've heard him agree with you. No matter how precisely you sharpen a knife. Variation will always be a factor. The data point remains, however. I've never felt the edge retention was horrible. It seemed pretty comparable to 1095 to me. The hysteria around 8cr13MoV seems to be just that. Thanks for your comments 🙂
@@rasputinscastle We're on the same page. I too find 8Cr13 to be very close to 1095. In fact, I would prefer 8Cr13 to 1095.
You do realize that most the hard "S" series steels like s30-s110v (s125v is typically ran 62-65hrc so I'm not including it) are ran at 58-60hrc just like good 8cr is ran at 58-60.. that is the same hardness the difference in wear resistance is from carbide volume and grain structure not that they are "harder steels" when you mentioned M4, M4 is typically ran 63-65hrc so that steel is actually much harder than the "S series" steels.
@Edcreviewer One, the goal in the steel videos is to educate knife users on the properties of a steel that's not scientific and easy to understand.
Two, hardness is a property achieved not inherent in a steel. So improperly heat treated S30V can be just as soft as 8CR13MOV.
My understanding of S30V is ideal. Hardness is 61HRC with a range of 60-64.
The only thing I disagree with in your statement is S Steels being heat treated the same Hardness as 8CR13MOV. I'd be surprised if most 8CR13MOV would test higher than 57HRC. Any S steel treated below 60 is improperly heat treated. Which I think you'd agree is the major problem with knife companies today, improper heat treats.
When you're talking steel, you're talking chemistry, and there are a lot of variables. Grain structure is the bottom line. The alloys you add and the heat treatments applied are all geared to getting to that bottom line.
I enjoyed your comments, we are definitely on the same page. My presentation may have been simplistic, but I think you see why.
Manufactured by the right factory and Handled and heat treated by the right maker, 8cr can be ok. That said, there are many TH-cam vids that show 8cr failing under moderate load. Every steel is good for something: when steels are not used for the right application, they either have less than stellar performance or they fail. For instance, an axe made of very hard, brittle steel isn’t a really good fit. Every steel is unfortunately a compromise. That said, there are many mid range steels, 14c28n vg10 and 154cm for mid range non cpm steels and xhp, s35, spy27 for higher mid range, m390/ elmax for even higher range steels that have better all around virtues. Then there are the non stainless steels like cruwear 3v 4v k390 m4 rex45 which are beasts, but will patina and even rust if not properly maintained, but are super tough and hold an edge extremely well, and then there are the amazingly stainless and edge holding Steels like maxamet , s90/110v and such that work great as blades but don’t use them to pry. The real question is: why buy 8cr when you can buy 14c28n 154 vg10 rpm9 aus10 for just a few bucks more and they perform so much better?
Great thoughts. I appreciate your comments, brother 🙏
This happens because this is a "Chinese" steel. I have some knives on this steel and i love.
There is even better steel which is 8cr15mov which has the keenest edge similar to 14c28n.Compare to the regular 8cr13mov,the 8cr15mov is twice as good due to more chromium I guess.
@ThirdoptionJCSU Thanks for the imput, brother 🙏. The purpose of the video is to let users know about the steel in their knife. They're many better Steels than 8cr13mov .
I'm of the opinion, the most important thing in a knife steel is heat treatment and tempering.
Benchmade are American made knives. I know of no Benchmades that use 8CR13mov. Can you put a link to one that lists this steel from Benchmade? I'm not saying they haven't used it but I'm calling bullshit until I see it.
@wilcoxtactical3716 yeah I think I mis spoke there. I'm not aware of Benchmade using 8cr13mov.
@wilcoxtactical3716 Yep I listened to it again. I said it. Thanks for catching that.
I can remember people complaining about Buck knives being hard to sharpen back in the late sixties and early seventies. Back then, knife companies didn’t say or make it known what steel they used. It was stainless or carbon and I never thought much more than that about it. Knife companies didn’t put steel ingredient lists on knife boxes. If you bought a knife and it was sharp and easy to sharpen you had a good knife. Someone calling 8Cr13MoV junk shows lack of common sense. Some of same the people calling it junk buy carbon steel knives, what sense does that make?🤔
I also think that as time has passed, companies just got better at heat treatments. I just look at these Steels like calibers for firearms. There's no perfect one. But you choose what's best for the job. For everyday use, the old steel is just fine. Thanks for adding to the conversation, my friend 🙏.
@@rasputinscastleTrue, although Gerber used vascowear (original ingot cru-wear), and they called it something else. Buck used 440c, 425m, 154cm, and 420hc as far as I know, and they always have had good heat treatment. But people were used to their Arkansas stones which already barely touch chrome carbides nevermind vanadium like in cru-wear.
I like 8cr13 its perfectly fine for most task and its a lot more reasonable cost wise. I've always thought that the steel snobs talk bad about it because it's mainly what the Chinese makers use and they just want to make everyone think they are somehow better than the people who just don't care. Lol 🙄🤷🏻♂️
@decal1751 It's really all you need in a pocket knife and better than the 420 steels 440C just marginally beats in in corrosion resistance. But if you want to sell a knife for $400, you have to convince people that it cuts better. Super Steels are better, but both cut and for $40. I'll take the 8cr13mov. By the way, there's only a $7 difference between most Super Steels and 8cr13mov. The most expensive Super Steel is only $14 more than 8cr13mov. Thanks for watching 👀
It is a crap steel i forgot my hunting knife by accident one time and had to gut an animal out. It was started off very sharp and was so dull half way through i literally had to use my axe to finish.
@sonofthunder7584 Well, that's true for most Steels. Super Steels lasts longer, for sure. I wonder how humans processed game for 10s of thousands of years without super Steels. Your point is taken brother, thanks for your comments. 😊
As much as I want a super super steel make magnacut, the value proposition is poor unless you make the knives yourself and already have a heat treat kiln, or are comparing a custom made knife in carbon steel vs magnacut for cost. If you're already paying much foe labour to a local maker, then it makes more sense, but for companies that upcharge a ton, no way. Costs too much for them to grind and finish and such.
Truth is, my thin little 2mm mora knives in 1095 is already more than tough enough, despite its reputation, and hard to flex unless you try, and it cuts much better than the thicker 3mm+ steels people use. I've used s30 i borrowed, but it cuts just like any other knife. I have a cheap D2 folder for cardboard or such, but even that I'm unlikely to break, especially in a folder where it's not a comfy enough grip to go nuts with, plus you'll have a floppy knife in no time with prying.
Balanced steels are best. They are hard and tough enough to take a finer edge if wanted, or thicker for a tough blade, and its not too hard to sharpen and dulls a little slower than carbon steels. If you look at larrin's charts, even basic steel starts at 250 cuts, and D2 or s30v is only 500 at the same hardness. You could also decrease your edge angle from 20dps to 15dps on the tough carbon steel at a slightly higher hardness and match the edge retention in use. Sure, super steels can do both better, but sharpening isnt too hard, and you can do a few passes side to side like a burr removal and you have a fresh sharp edge. No steel really holds its razor edge longer than another, unless its super hard (65hrc) and super tough.
It is funny how aus 8 gets a pass but 8cr is always trashed. The lowest steel i like to spend money on is d2. Its so cheap now and its everywhere. Just make sure its real d2. My go to steel is cts-xhp from cold steel and spyderco. I like s110v edge holding wise at 15,16 degrees it wont chip 17,18 just be careful
@danielduvall4154 The edge angle is a good point Daniel. Most people note the edge retention of hard Steels but totally miss the main advantage in a knife is being able to reduce the edge angle for sharpness. Thanks for watching 👀 🙂
Unless you're really lazy about taking care of your blades I think D2 is better in most ways, in my not so humble opinion I switched to D2 over a decade ago after daily usage and finding myself sharpening my newer blades much less. Like most things it's about the grind the blade geometry the heat treatment it's not just the steel itself but some steals have some advantages over others and the process if you just get that steal you're talking about and you turn it into powdered metallurgy and those tiny carbide suspended make for a pretty durable edge but most companies don't take that time and they just crank them out as fast as they can for profit but if you go to small knife maker they can get a lot more out of one of those then you would see from a mass produced result, right?
@adcaptandumvulgus4252 Yes, you're right all the way around. Especially manufacturers, not heat treating right. D2 at 59HRC is performing at the top of its potential. But most super Steels won't hit their potential till 62+ HRC.
Such a shame.👍☘️
I don't believe these charts really correlate the difference between stainless and carbon steel.
On the chart it has 1095 below s35vn. In toughness. That right there is totally no what i find in real world use.
I believe these graphs were made to sell his book. An push certain steels along.
I personally prefer toughness over edge retention/wear resistance. I also choose ease of sharpening.
Nobody likes to spend a hour fixing chips and reprofiling.
Just my opinion from my observations. I find youtube and forums rarely live in reality.
TH-cam has turned into a giant marketing campaign. Many welcome comments as long as they don't have any criticism. Like the guys that used to test affordable knives now try and pass off $300+ knives.
Then on forums you have the people that pledge themselves to a brand. The brand can do nothing wrong.
Meanwhile everything is twice as much but isn't even 1% better.
Like i said just my observations. I mean what do i know a mechanic and metal fabricator for over 30 years.
No, I think you're spot on. You may be right about Dr. Larrin but I don't get that from his articles and video. He seems to argue the opposite. Like 8CR13MOV is tougher than S30V.
There is a difference between science and real world applications. Defining the characteristics of a steel is one thing. What manufacturers do with it is a something else. In his steel comparison article he shows how the same steel from different manufacturers can be wildly different. That's something I've experienced in real life. Heat treatment is really important to achieve the potential of the steel.
I'm with you on toughness. I mean at some point you have to sharpen steel so I'm good sharpening more often.
Really appreciate your comments. I'm not the only one who reads them. The goal here is to provide good data points for my viewers, so I appreciate your comments. Feel to any time. Maybe we can use some of that 30 year steel experience. 👌😁😊
@@rasputinscastle thank you
I believe the D2 and 1095 toughness, you don't need that much and tough knives are made thick enough that it doesn't matter how tough the steel is. Softer steel also rolls well before chipping and takes a permanent bend, which is very clear evidence that you should stop doing what you're doing. With harder steels it doesn't show much of anything before breaking, it just does. Either way, my mora in 2mm 1095 is plenty tough enough for my uses and that's in a fixed blade. It's still hard to bend in any real use, and I'd have to bend it a lot for that to break. If you want to do carbon steel at home, 1084 + 80crv2 is tougher and easier to harden without using water, and is tougher than 1095. The reason people complain about edge retention is they don't sharpen to an angle that maximizes the ability of the steel. Harder steel can hold a finer edge without permanent bending and takes more force to do so, and also higher toughness at that hardness it still has extra bend to it before breaking. Something like 52100 can get super hard, like 64+ HRC and be as tough as D2 or 1095, which is tough enough usually for smaller knives not meant for heavy chopping, so it holds a super sharp edge for longer.
@mikafoxx2717 can't really argue with anything you said. My personal preference im not a big user of D2. I really love 5160 myself
there is no silicon in steels
@KwaPaN3R electrical Steels, used in motors, generators and transformers use silicon to reduce power loss. Vg-10, AEB-L, 154CM all have small % of Silcon in them as well as others.
Its kind of like when you ask someone why they hate Trump.. They can't explain why.
@@ed2335 Exactly!
It might have something to do with him being a pathological liar, rapist, felon and fraudster.