Amen brother. Your video is pure blasphemy to the steel snobs out there. I preach all the time that 8Cr13MoV is a lot better than what it is given credit. Knife guys have gotten so hung up on the exotics that unless it’s the latest, greatest, steel a knife must be junk. The truth is that most guys very seldom use their knives for tasks beyond cutting paper, string, opening envelopes, cutting cardboard boxes, and sometimes cutting mild food like apples. Sure, there are guys out there that use their knives for very hard tasks, BUT those guys will quickly tell you that a steel that can’t be easily sharpened isn’t very useful in the field. Thank you for your video. A big THUMBS UP! 👍🏼
Like everyone I started out being a snob, but after a while I realised the only things important to me were sharpenability and corrosion resistance. If both of those are fine for you, any steel works, some just last longer.
To me, this is definitive (actually, to me the last test was enough for me to draw a conclusion. This video is just bonus re-assurance). You should not have to go to such lengths to prove the difference between a steel that costs more than double the price of another. The difference should be very apparent. In my experience, the blade steel of a knife is becoming less and less important when buying a knife. If you focus more on build quality, design, and edge geometry you will end up with a better knife overall. This testing was absolutely awesome, you could not have done a better job. Anyone who picks this apart is just "splitting hairs". Great job!
Yep, steel type is really low on the factors of a blades ability to cut and stay sharp. The most important, to me at least, are geometry in the first place and heat treating second.
Agreed man. My OCD brought the Saintsations with it to cheer this man on. My first Spyderco was a tenacious that I got about eight months ago and it's surprised the hell outta me with build quality, fit and finish, as well as performance; but just the other week I picked up a Native 5 with the S30V, so I'll be doing my own little mini test this weekend lol. COVID should be renamed CO-VIDEO for all the projects I'm getting into.
Exactly correct. There is no point of spending dumb amounts of money if the difference in steel isn't readily noticeable. I don't count myself as a "knife snob", but I definitely am an enthusiast. I believe we should take pride in our ability to sharpen and maintain our blades. Obviously, I've seen differences in steels, but some of this stuff is blown out of proportion when anyone with a little skill can keep a decent blade going, instead of placing their faith in expensive miracle steel.
Through your sharpening videos and tests like this you’ve provided a much needed (and appreciated) service to the knife community. On top of that your videos are entertaining as hell.
Wow. I can't believe, not the money, but the time you spent to do this. Certainly not in vain as it was time much appreciated by us, your adoring fans! Seriously great video. Keep up the good work. Honestly, imho, it all comes down to marketing. For most regular folk, Mild steel vs 1095 yeah, you'll see a difference. But "super" steel vs regular stainless steel... not so much(if at all.)
Lyndon Durgan by that logic a mild steel blade is just as good of a choice as these 2 How about you see much change in similar quality steels just make sure your choice of blade is made of a quality steel
This was a good test. If anything you are showing people that it's the law of diminishing return in the sense that spending four or more times the money isn't going to translate into a knife that will hold an edge under real use for years. Great video Alex, I always enjoy them man. 👍
BornIn1500 Sorry kid read up on your facts there is absolutely a law of diminishing return. I've known it for a very long time and I'm sure you could Google to look it up if your really need to debate it👍
Brandon Cornett Wrong. There is no absolute law that mandates a diminishing return. There is a law of gravity because it must happen. Diminishing returns aren't an absolute at all.... kid
BornIn1500 OK haha I'm sorry but I'm not going to argue with someone that assumes or claims they know of which they don't. When I got an engineering degree I learned that there are people you just cannot argue with because those people will stand to the death by what they speak and even with contrary evidence they will not concede. You have a good one buddy 👍
Great video. I've been using a Spyderco Persistence 8Cr13MoV to cut Amsteel Blue by Samson Rope every day for about 8 years now. This rope really dulls an edge on lesser knives or scissors but the Persistence has held up well with only bi-weekly tune ups with a ceramic.
I really appreciate the time and effort you put into the edge retention videos. Real world is a special place.... not often visited by the comment section. Great vids and very useful information . Thx
This was great, dude. Moral of the story here is that even if you have all of these variables to consider, at some point there should STILL be some sort of tangible, blistering difference to show off.......and there's just not. Maybe I still won't run out and buy every 8cr13mov knife I can find, but I'll certainly respect the ones I have. I really enjoyed this.
Funny thing is flint, chert, obsidian, bone and even wood can be sharpened to insane sharpness and re edged almost instantly. I have knapped glass and natural materials to (in some cases) nearly atomic edge thicknesses. All of them hold up long enough to do the job. Super steels are fun, interesting to use and work with but most have only a niche market. A good fitting, easy to sharpen, properly built knife should be a very easy tool to build, and in fact they are. Great video, thanks for sharing!
I came to a similar conclusion when I tested a buck 112 in 420hc vs a Spyderco Delica in vg10 cutting cardboard. They cut so much I honestly didn't want to cut anymore and were still sharp. The 420 surprisingly held up a little better (probably due to the hollow grind) but the big difference is the $50 price difference between the two.
Thanks for confirming what I had suspected all along; that the average user won't be able to tell the difference between low-end and high-end blade steel. Now I won't feel so bad buying less expensive knives.
This is another great test video. Good job! I'd like to make one comment that I've never seen addressed (I likely just missed it elsewhere). Speaking of variables, I've noticed that when doing paper-cutting tests, it's important to find out which direction the "grain" of the paper is going on that particular piece of paper, and only use that side of the paper for your cutting test). So, if your knife cuts the paper easily when using the "side" of the paper sheet, then you try to use the "top or bottom" of the sheet, and your knife hangs-up, then you know that you should only cut the paper using the side of the sheet, for consistent results. I am always tempted to use another "clean" edge of the paper, whether it be the side, or the top/bottom, while testing my blades, and I sometimes would get frustrated that when using the side of the paper, the blade would cut like a laser thru butter, but when changing to another clean side of the paper (the top or bottom), suddenly the blade would not perform so well. So basically, for consistency purposes, when using paper sheets for testing, just stick to either the sides, or the top/bottom of your paper sheets once you have found out which direction the paper grain "works" for the blade. That should give you a better idea how sharp the blade really is. l know this sounds very simplistic, but I'm primarily making this mention for folks who have never used the paper technique for testing their blades. Anyway, keep up the good work and we'll be looking forward to more reviews!👍
This is the first test that I’ve seen online that actually has the smarts to take into account the cutting board in the back ... it’s hard to take any of these tests seriously when there are flagrant variables punching me in the mouth, the entire time I try to pretend enough to take them seriously - I really can’t say that there’s anything in your testing that I could try to find as a variable, or something that I haven’t thought of. I do appreciate Cedric and ada and all the steel tests that he does but there are a few variables in his work and he embraces that. This is as close to science as we can get with your tests. A sharpness tester would be the onnnnly thing that might give us a better result , being that the angle of the paper could be a variable possibly.
Great video! I think you did a really great job in trying to do all you can to eliminate all the possible variances while still recognizing those that still exist. It genuinely seemed like an honest video.
watch out on the way that you are cutting the paper ! At 7:30 you are cutting again the grain of the paper, so at a certain point of sharpness a knife is gonna have more difficulties to cut the paper again the grain (that's why you have so many hang ups). But if you cut with the grain with that same edge, it's gonna be more simple for the knife to cut the paper (so almost no hang ups) !
Dapdoi Ardon Simple, the way that is harder to push cut is against the grain. Take a single piece of newsprint and pushcut it, turn the paper 90° and do so again, you will notice a huge difference. . Pushcutting newsprint at a true 90° perpendicular angle is harder than slicing or pushcutting with the grain. Mess around with it and you will see. If you can pushcut newsprint against the grain, holding only one side of the paper around half an inch from point of cut, then your knife is indeed very sharp. However, pushcut sharpness is quite different to slicing sharpness. If you can do the same, against the grain, on lightweight Rizla (Greenpack) cigarette paper it is sharper than the best razor blade. Most will never be able to achieve this level of sharpness, regardless of sharpening method as it takes patience and skill. It’s a worthy goal to achieve though so good luck. ;)
On Cedric and ada channel he does a single swipe to test on the paper and if there is any hangup at all considers the test done. That's why his numbers are much different. Its crazy how changing just one variable has a huge outcome
That's what I noticed as well about the way Pete does the paper cuts on Cedric & Ada channel. So, his bar for "Failed to cut paper" is much lower than we're seeing here.
@@kaizen5023But this doesnt clarify why there is almost no difference when there should be a HUGE one. Just the way a paper cut test is perfomed doesnt change that much, in real life use you would not recognize the slightest difference at all 🤷🏻♂️
Stupid to me because I'm gunna use the knife more heavily and then after that I won't be cutting paper but more like plastic and thicker stuff, so it's silly to test on paper. Sometimes smart people are dumber than dumb people. The knife has to continue being sharp enough to cut the rope the retention test isn't over until the knife can barely cut tougher stuff well. You scraping your arm hairs and paper is the most idiotic thing I ever seen.
It's crazy because I've noticed pretty big differences between steels like s35vn and say 8cr13mov and zdp-189 and CPM-154CM. These were across different brands, like Spyderco, Kershaw, and Benchmade. Like you said it's all about the heat treat.
I"m new to knife making but am experienced in knife using. Last year I got an Elk and through the gutting and skinning process I found that my old Buck 110 held an edge far beyond any of my other knives. I have damascus steel a SOG knife and various other knives. Nothing compared to the Buck made with 440c. I am fixing to make a knife out of D2 and am hoping for an edge retention better than the 440c. Thank you for the videos they inspire me in my new found hobby.
440c is a great steel. It was the original “super steel”. I personally like regular old high carbon steel like 1080-1095 if it’s heat treated well. I’d like to do some knives in d2 in the future as it has some interesting properties. D2 really needs a cryo or cold treatment for it to really shine though. If you get it right it makes an excellent knife steel.
I liked these videos. They really reveal a lot. Like if you pay double for the steel, you certainly aren't going to get double the edge retention (or even a considerably noticeable difference). It will certainly make me a better consumer.
Wow, you put so much work into this. Glad you dispels some of the myths. So many people buy high end knives and they end up never needing the extra capabilities. They end up being collector pieces. I’ve never tried Spyderco’s 8cr13mov but didn’t like Kershaw’s version. A good S30V or (my favorite) S35VN is all I’ll ever need in a pocket knife. Thanks. PS, would love to see you produce that light backpacking fixes blade.
I'd be more interested in seeing a comparison between different company's heat treatment. I've owned a few Chinese made Kershaws with 8Crblahblah steel that I was sharpening constantly. Meanwhile my made in China Spydercos/Byrds (same steel) hold up a thousand times better.
I like your test. It’s unique because it shows how much to dull a knife to a working edge. You most certainly would see a difference if you took the testing further and used a more wear resistant blade like Xhp or zdp, probably double or triple the edge retention. But I never let a knife go past shaving sharp, not many truly obsessed fanatics do. So in a way your tests are more relevant and to my kind of use.
As a point about terminology which is kind of important : -variables are not things you want to eliminate, they are things you design into your experiment There is the independent variable, that is what you control or pick (in this case it is the steel type), then there is the dependent variable that you are measuring which is so called because it depends (changes in response to) the independent variable. (it is possible to have multiple dependent and independent variables, I have done research where there are up to 20+, but in general unless you have a reason to, you just design with one of each) -variances are things which change and you wish they did not, you don't design them into your experiment, life does In this case they are things like : -the level of abrasion per cut in the hemp due to the material -speed, force and handle of the cuts -humidity and temperature in the shop -angle/speed/control in cutting the paper This is a long list, it is basically everything you think which could cause your measurement to change. What you want to do is try to minimize these, BUT, taking care not to make your work so artificial you end up not even measuring what you wanted to. For example if you controlled everything precisely with no random variances, well you likely would end up with something which measured abrasion resistance but that likely isn't what you would want (plus you can just look it up, or predict it from empirical models in the literature). And there is even something worse, there is a whole list of factors which cause variances (also called sources of error, but that often confuses people because they think it means you are doing something wrong) because you are using judgment : -how to tell when the knife stops cutting paper cleanly/shaves -how to handle a possible outlier -the need to do yet another run because the results "don't make sense" -rejection of the data, looking for an explanation to find some preconceived notion No one thinks they do this because everyone thinks they are awesome as sciencing - except actual scientists who know they are really horrible at it, which is why you have to use blinding protocols to prevent it. Anyway, like anything else, there isn't an end to what you can know from cutting trials, it just depends on how much work you are willing to put into it, based on what you want to get out of it.
Great breakdown of the scientific process, as we always got told at uni 'measuring once or even twice doesn't really tell you anything'. As much as I'd hate to admit my old Statistics teacher was right but actual science is in statistics and changing all the variables according to a DoE/Box-Bencken model to once and for all determine which variable has how much of an impact. But then again, I just sharpen my blades how I like them (more acute than factory edge, usually slight secondary convex, scandi's never stay true scandi's, everything on whetstones and leather strop to a high polish) and they cut wood fine without ever having to worry about big rolls. I like nerding over the steels without caring that much about my own edges because they all function exactly as I'd like them to do.
@@OttoVonChriek Cliff Stamp has forgotten more about knife steels, edge geometry and sharpening than you could probably learn in multiple life times. Go to any place with enthusiasts that actually know anything, like BladeForums, and start asking about Cliff Stamp. You'll see he's held in high regard in the knife community. And for good reason.
Well...there ya go. Two times with basically the same results. Thanks for taking the time and money to do these tests. I'm ok with my cheaper steels, 01, vg10, a2, etc. The more you sharpen the better you get at it right haha. BTW I use the Lansky System as well for reprofiling and sharpening some of my flat grinds. Great tool! Cheers!🍻 Wade
I should be doing the dishes but instead I'm watching this video. EDIT: I totally don't regret it. It's too bad you had to spend half the time convincing the crowd the test was good because it was a dam good test and it was as equal/even/fair as it could possibly be. Good work. 👍.
Great stuff, the only thing I can conclude is an excellent heat treat on the 8cr by Spyderco. I wouldn't be surprised if the Spyderco 8cr out performed most others.
8Cr13 is the perfect, generic, baseline, stainless knife steel. 13% chromium is the proven amount to improve corrosion resistance before diminishing returns kick in. 0.8% is the maximum amount of carbon you can have without forming large, chunky (and largely detrimental to 99% of things a knife is used for) chromium carbides. There are tons of knife steels that are essentially the same stuff as 8Cr13. 440A, AUS8, AEB-L, and many other stainless steels are very similar to 8Cr13. Aside from this, the only really important indicator of "quality" in a steel is having low sulphur content. The lower, the better. Any sulfur in the steel is an impurity. Phosphorus is added to "neutralize" and minimize the negative effect of sulphur. The other stuff is mostly incidental. Note, the only thing that makes any of these steels better than 1080 or 1095 is the stain resistance. In essentially every other measure of a knife that matters, 1080 is just as good but with better toughness. 8Cr13 is essentially the stainless version of 1080. The "80" in 1080 refers to 0.8% carbon. 1095 has 0.95% carbon. Any exotic knife steel deviating from this 0.8% and 13% is mostly for bragging rights. Some of these alloys have special properties which make them very useful... for things other than knives. It's cool that people have come up with other ways to make a good knife steel, but "better" will need to be defined very narrowly to apply. It would be more accurate to say that these exotic steels are more exclusive. This is enough to justify the cost. Same way some baseball cards cost more than others. Sypderco makes limited runs of their knives, and the exotic steels are more rare in number. The hardcore dudes want to have 'em. The 4x higher cost is not because they are even twice as good. It's because they are more expensive to make. It costs more to have more SKU's/models. It costs more to manufacturer, stock, sell, support more products. It also costs more to grind more abrasion-resistant steels, as is the case for some of these exotic steels. When you buy this top end product, you are paying the cost of the manufacturer to maintain multiple products, where in old USSR, you might have just "knife." Take it or leave it.
I own plenty of knives of all steel ranges. The only real difference I can tell is microchipping or rolling of the edge occurs sooner in cheaper steels. However, sharpening those steels back to 100% is super quick. Sharpening S30V and higher takes a good amount of time. Overall, for a guy like me who mainly uses knives for food, opening boxes, and cutting up cardboard. The steel does not matter as long as it is sharpened properly.
1080 isn't tougher than AEB-L. Good carbon steel versus ideal low carbide stainless is about the same, given that you dont have so much carbon in solution in the carbin steel to get plate martensite embrittlement, you need less than .6% iirc for mostly all lath martensite for a tough edge. Get some 80CrV2 or 52100 up to high hardness and it'll be on par with AEB-L etc, just the tiny carbides in the steel will be iron carbides instead of chrome carbides, which add a little wear resistance for the same carbide volume. You do get a benefit from PM steels, notably magnacut, it adds super hard vanadium carbide and keeps the chrome out of carbides to keep the toughness and stainlessness up and your carbides are spent yet again on harder ones for the same steel toughness.
I have a k74 with aus8, I beat this knife on a daily basis, sharpen it everyday (2 mins), it handles every task I need it for, no need for super steel. Great video, love your channel!
That would really be the best I think. I really think if you have your sharpening tools and skill set dialed in, you can get these kinds of results from steels that treated well by the same manufacture if they are consistent in heat treating.
Thank you for doing this video! I actually carry a Victorinox #1 EDC and have Victorinox knives in my kitchen knives. Some people consider this steel very low grade. I think being able to resharpen easily is more important than edge retention for what I do, and it never rusts. When professional butchers, who use a knife daily for work, recommend and use Victorinox that tells me something. I find the best solution is use whatever steel works for you in your personal needs. Same for golf clubs, there has been some advances in technology, but for the most part it comes down to what works for you and what you can afford.
With that many repetitions, on average, all these variables work out to be pretty much the same for each knife. I think you have a reasonable conclusion. There isn’t enough practical difference to justify a huge difference in price.
Nice test and good communication though out -thank you. I wished you had been able to use a sharpness scale to quantify results but still a solid test. Given I have a Benchmade 940 S30V and a SpiderCo Tenacious 8Cr13MoV. I would say carry what is comfortable. I personally prefer everything about the Benchmade but when I think about the fact I can get three Tenacious for one 940 - it doesn't make any sense its not three times better.
Your test is a great one! Its reasonable and practical. Thanks to you, ive determined that the expensive stuff is not worth the price and the difference is just splitting hairs. 🤣
I believe it's more in the company and how they heat treat. You would have seen major differences if you used CRKTs 8cr vrs Spyderco s90v. Some companies just have better steals.
Another youtuber did an edge retention test by setting up a jig that dragged the edge across an abrasive with the same pressure then tested the sharpness with a sharpness tester. Sharpness testers are expensive but i’m pretty sure you can get the same sharpness test with a simple scale and thin wire (or even thread) stretched between two blocks of wood on the scale to measure pressure needed to cut. This setup would allow you to quickly wear down the edges, do many samples and resharpenings and remove pretty much all the human variables, while not wasting any rope or spending ridiculous amounts of time actually cutting or shaving. I’d really like to see this done on d2 vs 8cr13mov, as it seems the majority of reasonably priced knives use these steels.
This was just to satisfy my own curiosity. If I didn’t make a video of it I wouldn’t be able to justify this test. I may do some more of these in the future but only just for fun. Thanks for the comment 👍
Good vid. My basic edge retention test is is similar to yours, with the same rope. I use (lighter) notebook paper. My general observation is within reason, geometry comes first, then hardness, then chemistry as a distant third. With the same 3/8 sisal rope, I got 250 cuts out of an S30V PM2 @ 15* DPI up to a green strop, 500 cuts from an M390 PM2 with same sharpening, 650 cuts from an M4 PM2 with same sharpening, and 1,600 cuts from a convexed Rex45 PM2. I got 500 cuts from Busse PR's in INFI and SR101 with the 15* DPI arrangement, and 700 cuts from a BA3. 1,200 cuts from a convexed BR B1 LT 3V, and 1,550 cuts from a Busse BAD (60-62 Rc) convexed and thinned out.
I love these test great job! Do knife company's pay you to test their knifes and compare them yet? Well if not you deserve it that took quiet a bit of work. Alot of respect my dude!
I comented on the other video too. One of the issues with edge holding testing is the relationship between dulling and the amount of material needed to reach a given dullness. Very high sharpness is lost quickly, so small amounts of material cut show large changes in sharpness. However, there is a point where things level off and it takes many times the amount of material to show the same magnitude of sharpness change. It might only take 40 cuts to remove easy shaving ability, but cutting to the point it stops cutting paper might be 1000 cuts. I've cut over 3000 feet of cardboard with a $5 knife and it would still cut a folded piece of paper sitting on a table corner.
I love both guns and knives but shooting different calibers into gel is certainly less mathematically and physically intense than doing a test like this much respect for this research.
Yup, no matter what knife I bring to work, they all dull in 10 minutes tops cutting pad and carpet. I always tell the testers to use carpet padding, the test will take 5 minutes vs hours. I guess that might hurt the viewer pleasure though....
Cliff Stamp liked using carpet. It's a good real world use case of silica grit, dirt, things that give chips and dents due to not being hard or tough enough plus wear resistance.. maybe not ideal for kitchen knife testing but even so, not a bad one.
Blade gurus (ie those who own a keyboard, subscribe to a forum and own a knife ) will be spitting venom/losing their minds over this... On point real world test 👍🏼
@@svn5994 Pete cuts the board about as much as he cut rope but as the poster says. 1 test cant be compared to another. We knock down a shipping container of boxes. Most of us use 8cr or 14c28 blades. Why? Because we can strop it right there on the side of the container and keep going. Probably cut more in that 1 day than most cut into their lives. D2 has become more popular for us now
One variable you didn't mention was the consistency of the force pressed onto the wood. Going through rope 1000 times is one thing. But how can you tell how much pressure you're putting into the block? I promise I'm not being critical, you've done way more testing than I ever will. Just offering my observation. Great work!
heres the thing with that. The force he is exerting is within a threshold; contained within the confines of realistic human strength, the force needed to press through the rope, and the average consistent motion he is attempting to obtain within his tests. Overall, his hundreds of cuts will average out to an approximately equal amount of force.
at 6:20 - 6:35 that is because of the grain of the paper. It is always easier to cut across the grain (cutting on the long side for printer paper) because it takes more force to rip it that way. Therefore the knife will cut at a lower sharpness than cutting on the short edge. I hope that made sense, it did in my head lol.
I thank you for these testing videos. You have provided an invaluable service to knife enthusiasts. I concur with you: A decent steel, properly heat-treated, will give excellent performance.
I just plucked a really tenacious hair out of my ear. I think I should mail it to you to use for some comparative edge retention testing. Trust me when I say, this thing will separate the men steels from the boy steels! Nice video - even if “sigh-‘sel” rope is an inferior test medium compared to my ear hair.
I like you're video. If I was going to buy a Knife, I would prefer it to have S110V or M390 steel. Those steels are the best I have ever used and have gone the longest without have to sharpen!
What is important on edge retention tests is finding major differences. You don't need to pick a winner, the fact is that they are about the same and that conclusion is very important, specially if you consider price.
Brilliant 🤩 video, I had no idea knife steels were so varied. I’ve always loved Swiss Army knives but all you experts seem to say the victorinox steel is softer than butter. So now I’m thinking 🤔 of getting an edc with better steel, only problem is I’m England based and we are not allowed lock knives. I like the leather man charge tti but again it’s a locker . So have you got any suggestions? I always liked Buck knives but apparently the steel again is only average according to stuff I’ve read . If the world’s army use Swiss Army knives I would of thought they must be good 👍🏻, can you give me some sort of handle on all this I’m lost 😞. Please understand I am a complete novice in this area I’m only trying to find out what steels are good and what ones are not so good, I’m still in shock about my saks being soft I thought they were brilliant knives I still do , but maybe that’s cos I’ve only ever used them or leatherman
Great video, I just wanna add something you made me think about. I remember buying kershaw an spyderco from snap-on back in the late 80s knives didn’t hold a edge like they do now. I remember when aus8 was the end all be all budget steel an 8cr held its own with them enough that everyone switched an people still bought knives. The big thing in my mind ,that was a game changer was cheap diamond stones it used to take forever to sharpen now I can sharpen a really hard steel in minutes. I believe heat treatment is the key. Like Benchmade found out on sales from their 4v but fanboys believe the lies when the manufacturer claims we left it soft for sharpening. Lol why not use cheaper steel. I believe a lot of it is just marketing if not steel like 1095 would not sell as much. The facts are in production knives they don’t take the time to heat treat to whatever steels optimum hardness is, but charge prices like they do. I really can’t justify $400 or more for a production knife. And I can’t understand why people do that’s why I rag on CRK fanboys a 30 year old design with soft steel the knives shouldn’t be over $50 I love when they say tolerances are very good they should be they are CNC parts not like 50 years ago. Everything is marketing a production knife shouldn’t cost as much as my gun. Without inlays an fancy materials but these companies are not really helping improve anything like crkt charging big money because they have a strong new lock. Instead of charging for what you have into it. I’m not saying customs are not production an people need to realize these companies act like they are custom like microtech.Anyway that’s my bitch great job an I think your 100% on point trying to prove a unprovable point the manufacturers don’t care about or they would be showing it in marketing you know
I have three EDC, fixed blade knives. Two have budget steel, one has premium steel. The one with premium steel is easily my favorite, but NOT because of the steel. The small handle is much more comfortable in use than the other two. Swap steel between them, and the one with the comfortable handle wins. In use, I can’t really tell between the steels, except that one will rust.
Probably time to say, it is what it is, and move on! 😊 You can ask twenty people and get twenty different opinions ! I do appreciate your time and effort in this endeavor, it was interesting ! Thanks for sharing and take care. 👍
In all fairness, all 8cr13 mov isnt equal. Spydercos heat treat and overall blade treatment make for an exceptional version of that steel.. this is why im glad you done both knives in spyderco
Actually my favorite steel is 14c18n. The edge retention is little bit better than 8cr14mov but it has the best edge retention/sharpening ratio. It's easy to renew the edge on piece of rock from the river, what is my point of view, the super steel has super edge retention but the resharpening is torture. (From the same reason I hate Scandinavian grind).
You hate the scandi grind? I'll admit that it's not exactly easy to sharpen on a river rock, but I would hope that's not your normal method of sharpening. I actually love the scandi grind, because it was the 1st I ever learned to sharpen. All you need is some decent wet sand paper on a flat surface, and it's almost difficult to mess it up. I've always liked the simplicity of it.
@@Danielson1818 IMO getting a cheap whetstone is more economical than getting sandpaper, because it'll last longer. The whetstone also leaves a nicer edge and you can do edge leading strokes. The biggest downside of a whetstone is that it dishes out, and that matters for a scandi grind (and chisels etc.), but nor really for your 'regular' knife.
@@NoNamer123456789 You're misunderstanding me. I'm not saying that it's ideal to use sandpaper (even though I have several times just fine). My point was that I didn't understand the OP. He was talking about sharpening with river rocks. That's just weird, and a flat sandpaper should be about the cheapest thing for sharpening. I'd agree a cheap stone is better. Plus he was saying he doesn't like scandi grinds. That just hits me odd, because scandi grinds are so flat and obvious to sharpen. Lol. Don't worry about me, I have my own stropping disk I invented for my drill and bench grinder, so all my stuff stays very sharp. It's actually pretty rare I have to sharpen, with the polishing wheel.
@@Danielson1818 My point was that in the long run it's cheaper to get a whetstone compared to buying sandpaper, because the sandpaper can only do a few sharpenings before it 'dulls', whereas you can flatten a whetstone until it's ground away completely. Especially the kind of sandpaper that can be used wet is somewhat pricey. I definitely agree that sharpening with a random rock is probably the worst option when it comes down to speed and results. And that a scandi is the best option for beginners, though it needs a flat surface to sharpen with and takes more time because there's more material to remove. On a sidenote, getting a quality diamond stone isn't overly expensive either. I can't vouch with my own experience how long it lasts, but reports on the interwebs say it should last a few years. I mean I got a DMT coarse/extracoarse for 60 bucks and it leaves quite a nice edge after stropping, while being EXTREMELY fast and never requiring flattening.
@@NoNamer123456789 I know. I've heard the argument a few times, that the sandpaper costs more in the long run, compared to cheaper whetstones that will last. I think that's a fact. My counterpoint would be if you already have the sand paper available at your house with nothing else. That's how I started years ago, and anyone who learns the skills would naturally want to move onto stones. I don't know why, but I haven't ever tried diamond stones yet. Not sure if they make me nervous, or that I'm just happy with the stones I already use? We'll see one of these days.
This pretty much confirms what I thought. If well heat threated and with a good edge geometry, a budget steel can do very well. I think the difference starts being more visible when you compare it to a good 20CV, ELMAX or MAGNACUT, then it should be more notorious. S30V shines more for its toughness which is supposedly legendary, but in my experience edge retention is not really its forte, not bad though.
S30v has below average toughness. it isnt terrible but it absolutely is not legendary. Check the knifesteelnerds charts on the steels. S30v isnt particularly amazing at anything. Its a well rounded stainless steel that was marketed much like Magnacut was when it came out. That being as a well rounded stainless steel that was made specigically for use in knives. S30v's toughness and corrosion resistence are both much worse than Magnacut though. Totally different beasts. Edge retention can be pretty similar though. S30v is just not as well thought out as Magnacut is. Magnacut has some genius behind it. It has virtually no chromium carbides, but instead has all its chromium in solution. This means its more stainless with less chromium. It also means it doesnt have to waste carbide percentages on relatively soft chromium carbides. Basically, the more carbides you have, especially larger carbides, the more brittle the steel will be. Thats why you want to save your carbide content in your steel for harder carbides that will benefit your edge retention/toughness ratio more. You alao want the carbides to be as small as possible, but a lot of that has to do with how the steel was made and how it was heat treated, not just its composition. For the record, 14c28n is surprisingly similar to Magnacut for a fraction of the cost. It wont hold an edge quite as well unless it has a great cryo treat, but its easier to sharpen and its still tough as nails and very corrosion resistent. Tougher than pretty much any stainless steel infact. Thats the one with the legendary toughness. Its not powedered metallurgy either. Just well designed. Its almost like a stainless 5160 as far as its toughness, but it can he hardened more than 5160, and if it is, it holds an edge much better while still being PLENTY tough. I've even seen 14c28n as high as 64HRC in custom knives. Only 1 point lower than Magnacut can go. You can still find it with fantastic heat treats on cheap production knives in the 61-62 range though if you are lucky. They make the best beater knives. They are tough, and they dont rust. Wont hold an edge forever, but they sharpen up to a high polish FAST. That steel likes being super high polish too unlike some steel. It takes to it really well. You can do really narrow edge angles with it too. Probably the best value and most versitile steels out there. You can put it on an axe or a pocket knife and itll perform great either way. Only reason it isnt popular is because its not the edge retention monster that everyone wants these days wants. For that go Maxamet!
Best edge retention test ever real world use and the truth thank you for making the videos you do I watched similar videos to this in the past and always believe that the person doing the video was picking his favorite steel in a lot of the videos you can almost see the person sabotaging the test while cutting paper I really enjoy your videos
Fron your other videos and rhe opinions in these commenrs. if i have to make thousands of cuts and sharpen away a knife to nothing to say its so close it could just be human error is the only difference that makes one knife better than the other in edge retention i would call it definitive enough. ( thankfully you did the worst part of the job for us). Heat treat on a lower end steel levels the playing field. Great video thanks for your meticulous testing.
What was the HRC of the Sage? I suspect it was pretty close to the Tenacious. The steels are probably similar enough that they would perform similarly at similar hardness in a sharpness test. I think S30v's biggest claim to fame is that it holds a working edge much longer. It might no longer be shaving sharp, but it will be sharp enough to do utilitarian tasks for a long time. I usually prefer my pocket knives at that level of sharpness anyway, as I'm much less likely to cut myself. There is a reason that S30v has been mostly replaced by M390 and 20CV in knives in the $125-$200 range. They usually get better edge retention when done well.
So about why rope is abrasive I can only speculate: I did some looking into natural fibers and rope making for my chemistry study since school had a focus on green chemistry. Most natural materials possess some silicates, this is what makes a plain leather strop work, just as a paint stirrer stick works. The small silicates are in a matrix of cellulose/lignin or skin cells and I would guess the same is true for the silicates still present in the sisal fibers. Now, I'm actually not quite sure if and why synthetic fibers would also be abrasive, that's a good different test sisal vs paracord. EDIT: looked it up. Leather has 0,5 micron silicates in it, and natural fibers can also contain quite a big amount of inorganic materials, some sodium/potassium carbonate/bicarbonate but also significant amounts of silica depending on the plant. EDIT2: Sisal and Manilla Hemp hover between 0,6-1,0% Ash content and about 1% 'others', the ash is mostly the carbonates which are about 2,5 Mohs hardness. But the 'others' category is where your silicates would be located in. The consistency between ropes and even between sections of the same rope will not be controlled for and therefore will introduce a variable as you elaborated on. Actual laboratory testing of knife edges is done with calibrated paper booklets with calibrated amounts of a calibrated grain of sand in between using a calibrated machine. Very expensive stuff. You and Cedric both do an amazing job in workshop science because honestly you guys' results translate better to the real world and most tests are only relative inside of its sample size, extrapolation of data like this is much harder.
The fibers are the same length regardless. There orientation however is determined by the force to drag ratio (also called jet to wire) on the machine it was ran on
I’ve found very few papers that don’t have grain like this. Even tissue! Try tearing a Kleenex in orthogonal directions. Sometimes stuff like phonebook paper or newsprint is direction-agnostic.
Paper has a grain to it. Notice the knives, once worn, had trouble cutting against the grain (in this case the shorter side). You can tell how the grain runs by ripping strips of paper. If you rip against the grain the paper will not tear into thin ribbons. This is a factor in your paper-cutting base-line most importantly when they start to become dull.
Seems like they're pretty damn equal. Anybody that wants to argue needs to get away from the sharpening system and go outside and use their knife. Good stuff.
@@acidspaz4252 Disagreed. Steel is steel. The atoms could care less what angle you sharpen your knife at in terms of its respective composition. That is not to say that a knife edge doesnt perform differently at various angles. But it is ti say that the composition means absolutely nothing in regards to where you sharpen your edge. Regardless, the real test is in the REAL world. If we cant see results here, the question is, why are we paying twice the amount for s30v?
@@acidspaz4252 I'm an engineer who has worked directly with CPM materials in industrial applications. You're a fanboy who gets his technical info about steel from TH-cam and knife forums, meanwhile couldnt tell you the difference between a HRC and HRB hardness readings.
@@acidspaz4252 Sharpening angle differs for blade usage - You wouldn't want to chop with a knife sharpened at 12 degrees per side of course.. But different steels seems to have different cutting characteristics at different grades of stone they were sharpen - not always higher grade will result in better cutting and this has some to do with steel's composition (size of carbides, amount of them, etc.). But sharpening angle is mechanical property only.
@@acidspaz4252 aCID sPAZ You said "different steel works best with different sharpening angles" which can be hardly argued. The purpose of this test is edge retention. Period. If you want to say one steel performs better than another at HIGH IMPACT at a specific angle then that is more comparable. But no, were talking about edge retention here. And with that, I explain once again, your sharpening angle means JACK SHIT when it comes to the composition of steel you're using. All the measurable performance difference compared between two steels has much more to do with blade grind and other factors, and NOT the fact a sharpening angle isnt optimal for that blades respective composition. The grain structure just doesnt care 🤣 what you should have said was "different BLADES perform best as different sharpening angles" .... but you said steel. and you're incorrect, my friend
This would be a good test to compare axes that are used to chop. Cutting rope with a knife with this method would fold over any edge. That is why you see no comparable difference. To get the best edge retention with a knife you use a slicing motion. As a wood carver you learn the best method to carve is to slice the wood. When I cut rope I would never use the method you are using. I would slice cut the rope by draping it over the knife, better yet I would use my knife that has a partial blade that was serrated. To better compare knife steel I would devise a test where slicing was involved. When cutting cardboard a great deal of heat is generated that's one reason why box cutters are made with aluminum handles to disperse the heat. And the heat becomes a factor on blade edge retention. Thank you for your videos.
@@TheScottyp1 Friction heat created by cutting does have an effect on sharpness on any cutting tool. It does not have to reach austenitization temperature. Preventing heat build up in any cutting tool will increase the life of the blade.
Great testing Alex thank you for sharing your observations and your wisdom with us probably confirming some people's fears and infuriating some people's pride that is a good thing to do lots to consider I just bought a couple ganzo blades and a few other things this weekend to test out and try and see if I like and they have cheaper steels on them 440C instead of D2 or a powder Steel I'm going to see if I like them they were inexpensive and look well made and got good reviews so I'm going for it all right thank you again
with the paper test it depends on what side of the paper your using. The long edge or short edge one side depending on the paper will always be easier to cut than the other, it'll be the same on each side so both of the long sides for this paper he is using will easier to cut versus both of the short sides which will be harder to cut it's like this with pretty much all paper
Edge retention testing can be cut down to only a few cuts, I am an hvac contractor and have cut miles of fiberglass duct board, that stuff will dull a ceramic knife in a few cuts, best knife I have found to cut duct board is a cheap serrated steak knife
well, here is what i think would be a good and fast test to measure edge retention in the household way: take a pile of the same kind of paper. apply a weight on the top of the part of the blade that cuts that pile. cutting is being performed from above. now simply cut the exact same distance repeatedly of lines on that paper pile: pull it, only let it cut downwards by the applied weight. after 10 lines or so, see how deep the blade cut in the pile of paper. means for example: did it cut to the 4th paper from the above, to the 5th? repeating the same with another knife and same weight. for this test, the exact same edge angle would be crucial. also letting the blade slice in an almost perfect 90° angle. i think there should be some kind of material, thats easily available worldwide. then let the people pull their knives with the same weight over it, then we all finally had some kind of scale to measure edge retention of whatever knife, like: knife xy cuts to the fifth paper after the distance of 100cm, in short like: 5/100 if u read this, id be glad to get a response. btw im surprised, that no manufactor or "steel/knife expert", as youtube is full of such, is joining these videos to explain whats happening here. i mean where is the sense in buying a 300euro knife, if some 5euro knife cuts the same? btw: im liking that vids of urs here. saves many people a heck of cash. very nice.
It seems that the lesson on this would be that both blades are going to retain an edge well enough that a little edge maintenance is going to keep the knife usably sharp for a long time. By maintenance, I mean stropping occassinally as the edge shows that it needs a touch up.
I had an SOG in 8cr13 that would shave hard woods... I run my knives through a 3 step system every week or after any heavy usage... I now carry a 9cr14 that gets, maybe a bit sharper, but seems to need a bit more maintenance... The d2 I have will work all day but loses the razor edge quickly and takes work to keep it...
This is a great test! However, if you want to get the most out of the S30Vs edge retention qualities, you have to sharpen with diamond stones or at least silicon carbide stones.
@@jwelch1981 A lot of things affect edge retention. Type of abrasive, grit used, edge angle, free hand vs guided system, how good of edge you did/working through the grits and deburring. That's just things you can affect, forget steel type, heat treatment, geometry and blade thickness/grind. Some steels do better with a coarse edge, some with a finer. Some work better on waterstones/AlOx and other on diamond or CBN. I've had m390 and M4 that liked a more polished edge done with waterstones and other that like a coarser diamond edge. Then another that did way better with a polished diamond edge. I learned that if a knife isn't performing well its usually something I'm doing. Ill mess around with edge angles, finish and abrasives and mist times find something that works better. Sure there's times that no matter what you try nothing really works. Good example was Ritter Grip in s30v when Benchmade first tried the steel. It got so overheated that no matter how much I sharpened it had huge burrs and edge retention was terrible. They weren't used to high vanadium steels and the low grindability they possess compared to a 154cm. Elmax went through that too but I learned not to buy a new steel unless its from a custom maker known for heat treatment. The industry goes through growing pains and learns how to do a steel justice, especially now that they've had experience with carbide monsters like s110v, maxamet, 10v/k390 and others. Seems like mist are doing Magnacut pretty good from the jump which is nice to hear.
I have never seen someone saw through paper like that. I think that may impact results. If you look at how you cut the paper are not cutting with just the dulled portion of the blade.
I THINK BECAUSE, a old time knife maker was shown years ago testing his own builds and used this rope, and now all the guys on YT started using it. Saw that video, years ago.
what i love about 8cr13mov is that with a few strokes on my cutlery steel i can easily bring the edge back to razor. i will take a steel that is easy to sharpen and touch up over a hard to sharpen premium steel, any day! also with the low price of 8cr ,i can buy and carry two budget knives and double my edge retention that way.
Youd like 14c28n then. Its cheap and easy to sharpen. Average edge retention, but its toughness and stainlessness are incredible. On paper it scores shockingly similarly to MagnaCut. It is just a little less stainless, and has just a little less edge retention, but its actually considerably TOUGHER than MagnaCut and probably 1/10th the price. It can also take a high polish and thin edge as good as the best of them.
I admired you to be such a persistent tester. Painful to watch but you served the purpose well to inform to some degree on real life situation. To me, If I can use a section of the blade to cut the rope a few hundred times, I'll be satisfied with the blade. And if you shift to another section of the blade, then many more cuts with the knife...What is not to like? I do not think that many of us use the knife that much in any single day. Case closed.
Someone was reminded that the current policy in the USA is to avoid Chinese-made 8Cr13MoV (boo) and to promote US-made steel such as the ATS and CPM series. That makes 8Cr13MoV the all-round steel and D2 which anyone can provide, the new carbon steel. And you are brave enough to show it. Kudos.
You may not believe this, but paper actually has a grain structure. That's why both knives would still cut well on the long side of the paper, but not the short side.
Dan Dildarious Not sure exactly how it works, but a good friend of mine who used to work in the paper industry, pointed it out to me while I was doing a paper cut test. Go figure, I would have thought the grain structure of the wood would be destroyed during the paper production process.
Dan Dildarious Been awhile since I read National Geographic, so I don't remember how thin their paper is, but, the thinner the paper, the harder it is to cut with an edge that's not so sharp. I use the Sportsman's Guide catalogs that come in the mail once or twice a month.... Super thin pages!
Not quite like wood. It is much more consistent than wood. As it goes through the machine the grain aligns itself with the direction of travel. With a duller knife you will find it more likely to rip when going with the grain than against it because it takes less force to rip the paper and a dull knife requires more force to cut than a sharp one. So if cutting against the grain it is more likely to to cut than tear. Also that is why thinner paper is harder to cut than thicker paper. Because it takes less force to tear the paper hence why the knife needs to be sharper to cut phone book paper than printer paper. The wood analogy works though. Imagine cutting with the grain and against the grain. Then imagine using a dull knife, the dull one will still cut against the grain but with the grain it will split it rather than cut which is analogous to ripping paper. This is probably the most boring thing I have ever explained in a youtube comment section lol.
I'll tell you what I really want to see - a tensile strength test of some kind. If 8cr13 can be treated to perform the same in edge retention as s30v, I want to see if it still retains the toughness 8cr13 is known for. Because if it has the same edge retention AND remains tougher... shouldn't that make it objectively better steel?
Amen brother. Your video is pure blasphemy to the steel snobs out there. I preach all the time that 8Cr13MoV is a lot better than what it is given credit. Knife guys have gotten so hung up on the exotics that unless it’s the latest, greatest, steel a knife must be junk. The truth is that most guys very seldom use their knives for tasks beyond cutting paper, string, opening envelopes, cutting cardboard boxes, and sometimes cutting mild food like apples. Sure, there are guys out there that use their knives for very hard tasks, BUT those guys will quickly tell you that a steel that can’t be easily sharpened isn’t very useful in the field. Thank you for your video. A big THUMBS UP! 👍🏼
Like everyone I started out being a snob, but after a while I realised the only things important to me were sharpenability and corrosion resistance. If both of those are fine for you, any steel works, some just last longer.
I am a proud steel snob !
I do think HTs vary a bunch between batches
S30v isn't that high end but I get it
@@snackyxchan better than AUS8 or 14c28n =P
Tons of people that do a lot of cutting just get new blades from their company and don't actually care at all🤣
To me, this is definitive (actually, to me the last test was enough for me to draw a conclusion. This video is just bonus re-assurance). You should not have to go to such lengths to prove the difference between a steel that costs more than double the price of another. The difference should be very apparent.
In my experience, the blade steel of a knife is becoming less and less important when buying a knife. If you focus more on build quality, design, and edge geometry you will end up with a better knife overall.
This testing was absolutely awesome, you could not have done a better job. Anyone who picks this apart is just "splitting hairs". Great job!
Yep, steel type is really low on the factors of a blades ability to cut and stay sharp. The most important, to me at least, are geometry in the first place and heat treating second.
@Jacob Dawson Pretentious hipster has entered the chat.
P. S S30V isn't a shitty knife steel either..
Agreed man. My OCD brought the Saintsations with it to cheer this man on. My first Spyderco was a tenacious that I got about eight months ago and it's surprised the hell outta me with build quality, fit and finish, as well as performance; but just the other week I picked up a Native 5 with the S30V, so I'll be doing my own little mini test this weekend lol. COVID should be renamed CO-VIDEO for all the projects I'm getting into.
Exactly correct. There is no point of spending dumb amounts of money if the difference in steel isn't readily noticeable. I don't count myself as a "knife snob", but I definitely am an enthusiast. I believe we should take pride in our ability to sharpen and maintain our blades. Obviously, I've seen differences in steels, but some of this stuff is blown out of proportion when anyone with a little skill can keep a decent blade going, instead of placing their faith in expensive miracle steel.
"This testing was absolutely awesome"="Thanks for making the bullshit knives I buy seem better than they actually are"
Through your sharpening videos and tests like this you’ve provided a much needed (and appreciated) service to the knife community. On top of that your videos are entertaining as hell.
Wow. I can't believe, not the money, but the time you spent to do this. Certainly not in vain as it was time much appreciated by us, your adoring fans! Seriously great video. Keep up the good work. Honestly, imho, it all comes down to marketing. For most regular folk, Mild steel vs 1095 yeah, you'll see a difference. But "super" steel vs regular stainless steel... not so much(if at all.)
Bet he doesn't have any fur left on his arms at all!
You cant do more test because you have to wait for you furr to grow back :D
Moral of the story: Buy the knife you like, steel be damned.
Lyndon Durgan by that logic a mild steel blade is just as good of a choice as these 2
How about you see much change in similar quality steels just make sure your choice of blade is made of a quality steel
I think that for example 420hc is in no way comparable to cpm3v. However the heat treat matter A LOT
@@davidk123 how much iron is each steel?
How does it compare?
What are the actual differences
And how does that stack up in real world use?
@@davidk123 Lol didnt expect to see you here
@@DangerDad29 3v will hold an edge much longer than 420hc but like david said the heat treatment matters alot 3v is also tougher than 420hc
This was a good test. If anything you are showing people that it's the law of diminishing return in the sense that spending four or more times the money isn't going to translate into a knife that will hold an edge under real use for years. Great video Alex, I always enjoy them man. 👍
Brandon Cornett the curve of diminishing returns. Not a law. Sorry but it makes a difference.
BornIn1500 Sorry kid read up on your facts there is absolutely a law of diminishing return. I've known it for a very long time and I'm sure you could Google to look it up if your really need to debate it👍
Brandon Cornett Wrong. There is no absolute law that mandates a diminishing return. There is a law of gravity because it must happen. Diminishing returns aren't an absolute at all.... kid
BornIn1500 OK haha I'm sorry but I'm not going to argue with someone that assumes or claims they know of which they don't. When I got an engineering degree I learned that there are people you just cannot argue with because those people will stand to the death by what they speak and even with contrary evidence they will not concede. You have a good one buddy 👍
I wonder if that last reply was intentionally ironic, but it certainly sounded like it.
Great video. I've been using a Spyderco Persistence 8Cr13MoV to cut Amsteel Blue by Samson Rope every day for about 8 years now. This rope really dulls an edge on lesser knives or scissors but the Persistence has held up well with only bi-weekly tune ups with a ceramic.
I really appreciate the time and effort you put into the edge retention videos. Real world is a special place.... not often visited by the comment section. Great vids and very useful information . Thx
This was great, dude.
Moral of the story here is that even if you have all of these variables to consider, at some point there should STILL be some sort of tangible, blistering difference to show off.......and there's just not.
Maybe I still won't run out and buy every 8cr13mov knife I can find, but I'll certainly respect the ones I have.
I really enjoyed this.
Funny thing is flint, chert, obsidian, bone and even wood can be sharpened to insane sharpness and re edged almost instantly. I have knapped glass and natural materials to (in some cases) nearly atomic edge thicknesses. All of them hold up long enough to do the job. Super steels are fun, interesting to use and work with but most have only a niche market. A good fitting, easy to sharpen, properly built knife should be a very easy tool to build, and in fact they are. Great video, thanks for sharing!
Great video, I had faith in your first edge retention test. Every day use, as far as I'm concerned, is the best test there is. Keep on keeping on!!!
I came to a similar conclusion when I tested a buck 112 in 420hc vs a Spyderco Delica in vg10 cutting cardboard. They cut so much I honestly didn't want to cut anymore and were still sharp. The 420 surprisingly held up a little better (probably due to the hollow grind) but the big difference is the $50 price difference between the two.
you did your best. Too many variables...You drive yourself nutty Dude. I take my hat off to you.
Thanks for confirming what I had suspected all along; that the average user won't be able to tell the difference between low-end and high-end blade steel. Now I won't feel so bad buying less expensive knives.
I has a lot more to do with heat treatment than steel type. 🙂
I really appreciate both your dedication to proper testing as well as your awareness and acknowledgement of variables. the science is strong in you
This is another great test video. Good job! I'd like to make one comment that I've never seen addressed (I likely just missed it elsewhere). Speaking of variables, I've noticed that when doing paper-cutting tests, it's important to find out which direction the "grain" of the paper is going on that particular piece of paper, and only use that side of the paper for your cutting test). So, if your knife cuts the paper easily when using the "side" of the paper sheet, then you try to use the "top or bottom" of the sheet, and your knife hangs-up, then you know that you should only cut the paper using the side of the sheet, for consistent results. I am always tempted to use another "clean" edge of the paper, whether it be the side, or the top/bottom, while testing my blades, and I sometimes would get frustrated that when using the side of the paper, the blade would cut like a laser thru butter, but when changing to another clean side of the paper (the top or bottom), suddenly the blade would not perform so well. So basically, for consistency purposes, when using paper sheets for testing, just stick to either the sides, or the top/bottom of your paper sheets once you have found out which direction the paper grain "works" for the blade. That should give you a better idea how sharp the blade really is. l know this sounds very simplistic, but I'm primarily making this mention for folks who have never used the paper technique for testing their blades. Anyway, keep up the good work and we'll be looking forward to more reviews!👍
This is the first test that I’ve seen online that actually has the smarts to take into account the cutting board in the back ... it’s hard to take any of these tests seriously when there are flagrant variables punching me in the mouth, the entire time I try to pretend enough to take them seriously - I really can’t say that there’s anything in your testing that I could try to find as a variable, or something that I haven’t thought of. I do appreciate Cedric and ada and all the steel tests that he does but there are a few variables in his work and he embraces that. This is as close to science as we can get with your tests. A sharpness tester would be the onnnnly thing that might give us a better result , being that the angle of the paper could be a variable possibly.
Great video! I think you did a really great job in trying to do all you can to eliminate all the possible variances while still recognizing those that still exist. It genuinely seemed like an honest video.
watch out on the way that you are cutting the paper !
At 7:30 you are cutting again the grain of the paper, so at a certain point of sharpness a knife is gonna have more difficulties to cut the paper again the grain (that's why you have so many hang ups).
But if you cut with the grain with that same edge, it's gonna be more simple for the knife to cut the paper (so almost no hang ups) !
Frenchie EDC cardboard can have a "grain" but I've never seen regular white printing paper have a grain.
As a printer I can assure you paper does have a grain, when wetted it will expand about 5 times more across the grain than with the grain.
This was just a sample that I showed. I cut probably 100 sheets of paper during this test. Obviously I can't show them all😀
It was just an "important" remark for me. ;)
Btw i really like your videos, keep it up the great job !!!
Dapdoi Ardon
Simple, the way that is harder to push cut is against the grain.
Take a single piece of newsprint and pushcut it, turn the paper 90° and do so again, you will notice a huge difference.
.
Pushcutting newsprint at a true 90° perpendicular angle is harder than slicing or pushcutting with the grain. Mess around with it and you will see.
If you can pushcut newsprint against the grain, holding only one side of the paper around half an inch from point of cut, then your knife is indeed very sharp. However, pushcut sharpness is quite different to slicing sharpness.
If you can do the same, against the grain, on lightweight Rizla (Greenpack) cigarette paper it is sharper than the best razor blade. Most will never be able to achieve this level of sharpness, regardless of sharpening method as it takes patience and skill. It’s a worthy goal to achieve though so good luck. ;)
On Cedric and ada channel he does a single swipe to test on the paper and if there is any hangup at all considers the test done. That's why his numbers are much different. Its crazy how changing just one variable has a huge outcome
That's what I noticed as well about the way Pete does the paper cuts on Cedric & Ada channel. So, his bar for "Failed to cut paper" is much lower than we're seeing here.
@@kaizen5023But this doesnt clarify why there is almost no difference when there should be a HUGE one. Just the way a paper cut test is perfomed doesnt change that much, in real life use you would not recognize the slightest difference at all 🤷🏻♂️
Stupid to me because I'm gunna use the knife more heavily and then after that I won't be cutting paper but more like plastic and thicker stuff, so it's silly to test on paper. Sometimes smart people are dumber than dumb people. The knife has to continue being sharp enough to cut the rope the retention test isn't over until the knife can barely cut tougher stuff well. You scraping your arm hairs and paper is the most idiotic thing I ever seen.
@tomd3514 Your test would be too long.
Interesting testing and results... Thanks for sharing Alex! Enjoyed.
It's crazy because I've noticed pretty big differences between steels like s35vn and say 8cr13mov and zdp-189 and CPM-154CM. These were across different brands, like Spyderco, Kershaw, and Benchmade. Like you said it's all about the heat treat.
Yep. A buck bos 420hc vs random gas station 420hc knife will be incredibly different. Heat treat and grind matters.
I"m new to knife making but am experienced in knife using. Last year I got an Elk and through the gutting and skinning process I found that my old Buck 110 held an edge far beyond any of my other knives. I have damascus steel a SOG knife and various other knives. Nothing compared to the Buck made with 440c. I am fixing to make a knife out of D2 and am hoping for an edge retention better than the 440c. Thank you for the videos they inspire me in my new found hobby.
440c is a great steel. It was the original “super steel”. I personally like regular old high carbon steel like 1080-1095 if it’s heat treated well. I’d like to do some knives in d2 in the future as it has some interesting properties. D2 really needs a cryo or cold treatment for it to really shine though. If you get it right it makes an excellent knife steel.
I liked these videos. They really reveal a lot. Like if you pay double for the steel, you certainly aren't going to get double the edge retention (or even a considerably noticeable difference). It will certainly make me a better consumer.
Wow, you put so much work into this. Glad you dispels some of the myths. So many people buy high end knives and they end up never needing the extra capabilities. They end up being collector pieces. I’ve never tried Spyderco’s 8cr13mov but didn’t like Kershaw’s version. A good S30V or (my favorite) S35VN is all I’ll ever need in a pocket knife. Thanks. PS, would love to see you produce that light backpacking fixes blade.
Heat treatment is the key of all steel. Use 440C with a good heat treatment and it will performs really well
I'd be more interested in seeing a comparison between different company's heat treatment. I've owned a few Chinese made Kershaws with 8Crblahblah steel that I was sharpening constantly. Meanwhile my made in China Spydercos/Byrds (same steel) hold up a thousand times better.
Buck's treatment is pretty awesome.
Just wish they used a good assisted operation and made them ambi carry.
I like your test. It’s unique because it shows how much to dull a knife to a working edge. You most certainly would see a difference if you took the testing further and used a more wear resistant blade like Xhp or zdp, probably double or triple the edge retention. But I never let a knife go past shaving sharp, not many truly obsessed fanatics do. So in a way your tests are more relevant and to my kind of use.
As a point about terminology which is kind of important :
-variables are not things you want to eliminate, they are things you design into your experiment
There is the independent variable, that is what you control or pick (in this case it is the steel type), then there is the dependent variable that you are measuring which is so called because it depends (changes in response to) the independent variable.
(it is possible to have multiple dependent and independent variables, I have done research where there are up to 20+, but in general unless you have a reason to, you just design with one of each)
-variances are things which change and you wish they did not, you don't design them into your experiment, life does
In this case they are things like :
-the level of abrasion per cut in the hemp due to the material
-speed, force and handle of the cuts
-humidity and temperature in the shop
-angle/speed/control in cutting the paper
This is a long list, it is basically everything you think which could cause your measurement to change. What you want to do is try to minimize these, BUT, taking care not to make your work so artificial you end up not even measuring what you wanted to. For example if you controlled everything precisely with no random variances, well you likely would end up with something which measured abrasion resistance but that likely isn't what you would want (plus you can just look it up, or predict it from empirical models in the literature).
And there is even something worse, there is a whole list of factors which cause variances (also called sources of error, but that often confuses people because they think it means you are doing something wrong) because you are using judgment :
-how to tell when the knife stops cutting paper cleanly/shaves
-how to handle a possible outlier
-the need to do yet another run because the results "don't make sense"
-rejection of the data, looking for an explanation to find some preconceived notion
No one thinks they do this because everyone thinks they are awesome as sciencing - except actual scientists who know they are really horrible at it, which is why you have to use blinding protocols to prevent it.
Anyway, like anything else, there isn't an end to what you can know from cutting trials, it just depends on how much work you are willing to put into it, based on what you want to get out of it.
He just did how he wanted. At home you can make any test with approximate results. The result is that you have a conception.
The Master returns!
@@SailfishSoundSystem no
Great breakdown of the scientific process, as we always got told at uni 'measuring once or even twice doesn't really tell you anything'. As much as I'd hate to admit my old Statistics teacher was right but actual science is in statistics and changing all the variables according to a DoE/Box-Bencken model to once and for all determine which variable has how much of an impact.
But then again, I just sharpen my blades how I like them (more acute than factory edge, usually slight secondary convex, scandi's never stay true scandi's, everything on whetstones and leather strop to a high polish) and they cut wood fine without ever having to worry about big rolls. I like nerding over the steels without caring that much about my own edges because they all function exactly as I'd like them to do.
@@OttoVonChriek
Cliff Stamp has forgotten more about knife steels, edge geometry and sharpening than you could probably learn in multiple life times.
Go to any place with enthusiasts that actually know anything, like BladeForums, and start asking about Cliff Stamp. You'll see he's held in high regard in the knife community. And for good reason.
Well...there ya go. Two times with basically the same results. Thanks for taking the time and money to do these tests. I'm ok with my cheaper steels, 01, vg10, a2, etc. The more you sharpen the better you get at it right haha.
BTW I use the Lansky System as well for reprofiling and sharpening some of my flat grinds. Great tool! Cheers!🍻 Wade
I should be doing the dishes but instead I'm watching this video.
EDIT: I totally don't regret it.
It's too bad you had to spend half the time convincing the crowd the test was good because it was a dam good test and it was as equal/even/fair as it could possibly be.
Good work. 👍.
Great stuff, the only thing I can conclude is an excellent heat treat on the 8cr by Spyderco. I wouldn't be surprised if the Spyderco 8cr out performed most others.
I wouldn't either. 😀
8Cr13 is the perfect, generic, baseline, stainless knife steel. 13% chromium is the proven amount to improve corrosion resistance before diminishing returns kick in. 0.8% is the maximum amount of carbon you can have without forming large, chunky (and largely detrimental to 99% of things a knife is used for) chromium carbides.
There are tons of knife steels that are essentially the same stuff as 8Cr13. 440A, AUS8, AEB-L, and many other stainless steels are very similar to 8Cr13.
Aside from this, the only really important indicator of "quality" in a steel is having low sulphur content. The lower, the better. Any sulfur in the steel is an impurity. Phosphorus is added to "neutralize" and minimize the negative effect of sulphur. The other stuff is mostly incidental.
Note, the only thing that makes any of these steels better than 1080 or 1095 is the stain resistance. In essentially every other measure of a knife that matters, 1080 is just as good but with better toughness. 8Cr13 is essentially the stainless version of 1080. The "80" in 1080 refers to 0.8% carbon. 1095 has 0.95% carbon.
Any exotic knife steel deviating from this 0.8% and 13% is mostly for bragging rights. Some of these alloys have special properties which make them very useful... for things other than knives. It's cool that people have come up with other ways to make a good knife steel, but "better" will need to be defined very narrowly to apply. It would be more accurate to say that these exotic steels are more exclusive. This is enough to justify the cost. Same way some baseball cards cost more than others. Sypderco makes limited runs of their knives, and the exotic steels are more rare in number. The hardcore dudes want to have 'em.
The 4x higher cost is not because they are even twice as good. It's because they are more expensive to make. It costs more to have more SKU's/models. It costs more to manufacturer, stock, sell, support more products. It also costs more to grind more abrasion-resistant steels, as is the case for some of these exotic steels. When you buy this top end product, you are paying the cost of the manufacturer to maintain multiple products, where in old USSR, you might have just "knife." Take it or leave it.
I agree💪
I own plenty of knives of all steel ranges. The only real difference I can tell is microchipping or rolling of the edge occurs sooner in cheaper steels. However, sharpening those steels back to 100% is super quick. Sharpening S30V and higher takes a good amount of time. Overall, for a guy like me who mainly uses knives for food, opening boxes, and cutting up cardboard. The steel does not matter as long as it is sharpened properly.
1080 isn't tougher than AEB-L. Good carbon steel versus ideal low carbide stainless is about the same, given that you dont have so much carbon in solution in the carbin steel to get plate martensite embrittlement, you need less than .6% iirc for mostly all lath martensite for a tough edge. Get some 80CrV2 or 52100 up to high hardness and it'll be on par with AEB-L etc, just the tiny carbides in the steel will be iron carbides instead of chrome carbides, which add a little wear resistance for the same carbide volume.
You do get a benefit from PM steels, notably magnacut, it adds super hard vanadium carbide and keeps the chrome out of carbides to keep the toughness and stainlessness up and your carbides are spent yet again on harder ones for the same steel toughness.
Highly appreciate you doing this video and sharing it with the rest of us
Thanks for watching! I really appreciate it!
I have a k74 with aus8, I beat this knife on a daily basis, sharpen it everyday (2 mins), it handles every task I need it for, no need for super steel. Great video, love your channel!
Maybe we need to try s30v from another brand and see how it compares to spyderco.
That would really be the best I think. I really think if you have your sharpening tools and skill set dialed in, you can get these kinds of results from steels that treated well by the same manufacture if they are consistent in heat treating.
Bucks s30v bos
aCID sPAZ Yeah you’ve got to test the test before you can test, otherwise the testing will be testing. I’ll attest to that.
Thank you for doing this video! I actually carry a Victorinox #1 EDC and have Victorinox knives in my kitchen knives. Some people consider this steel very low grade. I think being able to resharpen easily is more important than edge retention for what I do, and it never rusts. When professional butchers, who use a knife daily for work, recommend and use Victorinox that tells me something. I find the best solution is use whatever steel works for you in your personal needs. Same for golf clubs, there has been some advances in technology, but for the most part it comes down to what works for you and what you can afford.
victorinox has salespeople who go to all the butchers and plug their product
14c28n is better in virtually every way. Its also cheaper and available on more options. JUST as easy to sharpen too.
With that many repetitions, on average, all these variables work out to be pretty much the same for each knife. I think you have a reasonable conclusion. There isn’t enough practical difference to justify a huge difference in price.
I love watching people spitting feathers.up and down the world feathers are floating in the air.great completely logical test.thank you.atb paddy.👍☺🍀
Nice test and good communication though out -thank you. I wished you had been able to use a sharpness scale to quantify results but still a solid test. Given I have a Benchmade 940 S30V and a SpiderCo Tenacious 8Cr13MoV. I would say carry what is comfortable. I personally prefer everything about the Benchmade but when I think about the fact I can get three Tenacious for one 940 - it doesn't make any sense its not three times better.
Your test is a great one! Its reasonable and practical. Thanks to you, ive determined that the expensive stuff is not worth the price and the difference is just splitting hairs. 🤣
I believe it's more in the company and how they heat treat. You would have seen major differences if you used CRKTs 8cr vrs Spyderco s90v. Some companies just have better steals.
Do you mean that crkts 8cr knifes are not good steel compared to the spyderco s90v or in the opposite?
@@Walid_Kharseh i just sharpened a ckrt 8cr, and its way sturdier than the gerber and various kitchen knives i compared it to
Kershaw and spyderco have the best 8cr13mov blades
Another youtuber did an edge retention test by setting up a jig that dragged the edge across an abrasive with the same pressure then tested the sharpness with a sharpness tester. Sharpness testers are expensive but i’m pretty sure you can get the same sharpness test with a simple scale and thin wire (or even thread) stretched between two blocks of wood on the scale to measure pressure needed to cut. This setup would allow you to quickly wear down the edges, do many samples and resharpenings and remove pretty much all the human variables, while not wasting any rope or spending ridiculous amounts of time actually cutting or shaving. I’d really like to see this done on d2 vs 8cr13mov, as it seems the majority of reasonably priced knives use these steels.
Amazing test, thanks for all the work you put into this.
As for ease of resharpening, how do they compare?
I stropped them both back to hair whittling in a couple seconds on green compound. So hot much difference there😀
I'm glad your getting beyond this and look forward to more videos that have nothing to do with edge retention.
This was just to satisfy my own curiosity. If I didn’t make a video of it I wouldn’t be able to justify this test. I may do some more of these in the future but only just for fun. Thanks for the comment 👍
Good vid. My basic edge retention test is is similar to yours, with the same rope. I use (lighter) notebook paper. My general observation is within reason, geometry comes first, then hardness, then chemistry as a distant third.
With the same 3/8 sisal rope, I got 250 cuts out of an S30V PM2 @ 15* DPI up to a green strop, 500 cuts from an M390 PM2 with same sharpening, 650 cuts from an M4 PM2 with same sharpening, and 1,600 cuts from a convexed Rex45 PM2.
I got 500 cuts from Busse PR's in INFI and SR101 with the 15* DPI arrangement, and 700 cuts from a BA3. 1,200 cuts from a convexed BR B1 LT 3V, and 1,550 cuts from a Busse BAD (60-62 Rc) convexed and thinned out.
You are a serious TROOPER!! Damn....I appreciate you and your tenacity!
You should see the blister I got from all this😉 Even through the glove😩
awesome test, thanks for the hard work on this
I love these test great job! Do knife company's pay you to test their knifes and compare them yet? Well if not you deserve it that took quiet a bit of work. Alot of respect my dude!
Excellent video Sir. Keep up the great work!
I comented on the other video too. One of the issues with edge holding testing is the relationship between dulling and the amount of material needed to reach a given dullness. Very high sharpness is lost quickly, so small amounts of material cut show large changes in sharpness. However, there is a point where things level off and it takes many times the amount of material to show the same magnitude of sharpness change. It might only take 40 cuts to remove easy shaving ability, but cutting to the point it stops cutting paper might be 1000 cuts. I've cut over 3000 feet of cardboard with a $5 knife and it would still cut a folded piece of paper sitting on a table corner.
I love both guns and knives but shooting different calibers into gel is certainly less mathematically and physically intense than doing a test like this much respect for this research.
Yup, no matter what knife I bring to work, they all dull in 10 minutes tops cutting pad and carpet. I always tell the testers to use carpet padding, the test will take 5 minutes vs hours. I guess that might hurt the viewer pleasure though....
Cliff Stamp liked using carpet. It's a good real world use case of silica grit, dirt, things that give chips and dents due to not being hard or tough enough plus wear resistance.. maybe not ideal for kitchen knife testing but even so, not a bad one.
Try a sage in Maxamet or Rex 121. Its not gonna dull in 10 minutes. it just isnt.
Blade gurus (ie those who own a keyboard, subscribe to a forum and own a knife ) will be spitting venom/losing their minds over this...
On point real world test 👍🏼
Except Cedric & Ada along with plenty of other tests prove this wrong.
@@svn5994 Pete cuts the board about as much as he cut rope but as the poster says. 1 test cant be compared to another.
We knock down a shipping container of boxes. Most of us use 8cr or 14c28 blades. Why? Because we can strop it right there on the side of the container and keep going.
Probably cut more in that 1 day than most cut into their lives.
D2 has become more popular for us now
One variable you didn't mention was the consistency of the force pressed onto the wood. Going through rope 1000 times is one thing. But how can you tell how much pressure you're putting into the block?
I promise I'm not being critical, you've done way more testing than I ever will. Just offering my observation.
Great work!
heres the thing with that. The force he is exerting is within a threshold; contained within the confines of realistic human strength, the force needed to press through the rope, and the average consistent motion he is attempting to obtain within his tests. Overall, his hundreds of cuts will average out to an approximately equal amount of force.
at 6:20 - 6:35 that is because of the grain of the paper. It is always easier to cut across the grain (cutting on the long side for printer paper) because it takes more force to rip it that way. Therefore the knife will cut at a lower sharpness than cutting on the short edge. I hope that made sense, it did in my head lol.
I thank you for these testing videos. You have provided an invaluable service to knife enthusiasts.
I concur with you: A decent steel, properly heat-treated, will give excellent performance.
Much respect for all the effort (and expense) doing these tests. Thanks!
I just plucked a really tenacious hair out of my ear. I think I should mail it to you to use for some comparative edge retention testing. Trust me when I say, this thing will separate the men steels from the boy steels! Nice video - even if “sigh-‘sel” rope is an inferior test medium compared to my ear hair.
I like you're video. If I was going to buy a Knife, I would prefer it to have S110V or M390 steel. Those steels are the best I have ever used and have gone the longest without have to sharpen!
Very great test,thank you for your work.
Captains log "Day 2 of testing"
Love it
What is important on edge retention tests is finding major differences. You don't need to pick a winner, the fact is that they are about the same and that conclusion is very important, specially if you consider price.
Brilliant 🤩 video, I had no idea knife steels were so varied. I’ve always loved Swiss Army knives but all you experts seem to say the victorinox steel is softer than butter. So now I’m thinking 🤔 of getting an edc with better steel, only problem is I’m England based and we are not allowed lock knives. I like the leather man charge tti but again it’s a locker . So have you got any suggestions? I always liked Buck knives but apparently the steel again is only average according to stuff I’ve read . If the world’s army use Swiss Army knives I would of thought they must be good 👍🏻, can you give me some sort of handle on all this I’m lost 😞. Please understand I am a complete novice in this area I’m only trying to find out what steels are good and what ones are not so good, I’m still in shock about my saks being soft I thought they were brilliant knives I still do , but maybe that’s cos I’ve only ever used them or leatherman
Great video, I just wanna add something you made me think about. I remember buying kershaw an spyderco from snap-on back in the late 80s knives didn’t hold a edge like they do now. I remember when aus8 was the end all be all budget steel an 8cr held its own with them enough that everyone switched an people still bought knives. The big thing in my mind ,that was a game changer was cheap diamond stones it used to take forever to sharpen now I can sharpen a really hard steel in minutes.
I believe heat treatment is the key. Like Benchmade found out on sales from their 4v but fanboys believe the lies when the manufacturer claims we left it soft for sharpening. Lol why not use cheaper steel. I believe a lot of it is just marketing if not steel like 1095 would not sell as much. The facts are in production knives they don’t take the time to heat treat to whatever steels optimum hardness is, but charge prices like they do. I really can’t justify $400 or more for a production knife. And I can’t understand why people do that’s why I rag on CRK fanboys a 30 year old design with soft steel the knives shouldn’t be over $50 I love when they say tolerances are very good they should be they are CNC parts not like 50 years ago. Everything is marketing a production knife shouldn’t cost as much as my gun. Without inlays an fancy materials but these companies are not really helping improve anything like crkt charging big money because they have a strong new lock. Instead of charging for what you have into it. I’m not saying customs are not production an people need to realize these companies act like they are custom like microtech.Anyway that’s my bitch great job an I think your 100% on point trying to prove a unprovable point the manufacturers don’t care about or they would be showing it in marketing you know
I have three EDC, fixed blade knives. Two have budget steel, one has premium steel. The one with premium steel is easily my favorite, but NOT because of the steel. The small handle is much more comfortable in use than the other two. Swap steel between them, and the one with the comfortable handle wins. In use, I can’t really tell between the steels, except that one will rust.
Probably time to say, it is what it is, and move on! 😊
You can ask twenty people and get twenty different opinions !
I do appreciate your time and effort in this endeavor, it was interesting !
Thanks for sharing and take care. 👍
In all fairness, all 8cr13 mov isnt equal. Spydercos heat treat and overall blade treatment make for an exceptional version of that steel.. this is why im glad you done both knives in spyderco
Actually my favorite steel is 14c18n. The edge retention is little bit better than 8cr14mov but it has the best edge retention/sharpening ratio. It's easy to renew the edge on piece of rock from the river, what is my point of view, the super steel has super edge retention but the resharpening is torture. (From the same reason I hate Scandinavian grind).
You hate the scandi grind? I'll admit that it's not exactly easy to sharpen on a river rock, but I would hope that's not your normal method of sharpening. I actually love the scandi grind, because it was the 1st I ever learned to sharpen. All you need is some decent wet sand paper on a flat surface, and it's almost difficult to mess it up. I've always liked the simplicity of it.
@@Danielson1818 IMO getting a cheap whetstone is more economical than getting sandpaper, because it'll last longer. The whetstone also leaves a nicer edge and you can do edge leading strokes. The biggest downside of a whetstone is that it dishes out, and that matters for a scandi grind (and chisels etc.), but nor really for your 'regular' knife.
@@NoNamer123456789 You're misunderstanding me. I'm not saying that it's ideal to use sandpaper (even though I have several times just fine). My point was that I didn't understand the OP. He was talking about sharpening with river rocks. That's just weird, and a flat sandpaper should be about the cheapest thing for sharpening. I'd agree a cheap stone is better. Plus he was saying he doesn't like scandi grinds. That just hits me odd, because scandi grinds are so flat and obvious to sharpen.
Lol. Don't worry about me, I have my own stropping disk I invented for my drill and bench grinder, so all my stuff stays very sharp. It's actually pretty rare I have to sharpen, with the polishing wheel.
@@Danielson1818 My point was that in the long run it's cheaper to get a whetstone compared to buying sandpaper, because the sandpaper can only do a few sharpenings before it 'dulls', whereas you can flatten a whetstone until it's ground away completely. Especially the kind of sandpaper that can be used wet is somewhat pricey.
I definitely agree that sharpening with a random rock is probably the worst option when it comes down to speed and results. And that a scandi is the best option for beginners, though it needs a flat surface to sharpen with and takes more time because there's more material to remove.
On a sidenote, getting a quality diamond stone isn't overly expensive either. I can't vouch with my own experience how long it lasts, but reports on the interwebs say it should last a few years. I mean I got a DMT coarse/extracoarse for 60 bucks and it leaves quite a nice edge after stropping, while being EXTREMELY fast and never requiring flattening.
@@NoNamer123456789 I know. I've heard the argument a few times, that the sandpaper costs more in the long run, compared to cheaper whetstones that will last. I think that's a fact. My counterpoint would be if you already have the sand paper available at your house with nothing else. That's how I started years ago, and anyone who learns the skills would naturally want to move onto stones. I don't know why, but I haven't ever tried diamond stones yet. Not sure if they make me nervous, or that I'm just happy with the stones I already use? We'll see one of these days.
Beast! Thanks for your dedication!
This pretty much confirms what I thought. If well heat threated and with a good edge geometry, a budget steel can do very well. I think the difference starts being more visible when you compare it to a good 20CV, ELMAX or MAGNACUT, then it should be more notorious. S30V shines more for its toughness which is supposedly legendary, but in my experience edge retention is not really its forte, not bad though.
S30v has below average toughness. it isnt terrible but it absolutely is not legendary. Check the knifesteelnerds charts on the steels. S30v isnt particularly amazing at anything. Its a well rounded stainless steel that was marketed much like Magnacut was when it came out. That being as a well rounded stainless steel that was made specigically for use in knives. S30v's toughness and corrosion resistence are both much worse than Magnacut though. Totally different beasts. Edge retention can be pretty similar though. S30v is just not as well thought out as Magnacut is. Magnacut has some genius behind it. It has virtually no chromium carbides, but instead has all its chromium in solution. This means its more stainless with less chromium. It also means it doesnt have to waste carbide percentages on relatively soft chromium carbides.
Basically, the more carbides you have, especially larger carbides, the more brittle the steel will be. Thats why you want to save your carbide content in your steel for harder carbides that will benefit your edge retention/toughness ratio more. You alao want the carbides to be as small as possible, but a lot of that has to do with how the steel was made and how it was heat treated, not just its composition.
For the record, 14c28n is surprisingly similar to Magnacut for a fraction of the cost. It wont hold an edge quite as well unless it has a great cryo treat, but its easier to sharpen and its still tough as nails and very corrosion resistent. Tougher than pretty much any stainless steel infact. Thats the one with the legendary toughness. Its not powedered metallurgy either. Just well designed. Its almost like a stainless 5160 as far as its toughness, but it can he hardened more than 5160, and if it is, it holds an edge much better while still being PLENTY tough. I've even seen 14c28n as high as 64HRC in custom knives. Only 1 point lower than Magnacut can go. You can still find it with fantastic heat treats on cheap production knives in the 61-62 range though if you are lucky. They make the best beater knives. They are tough, and they dont rust. Wont hold an edge forever, but they sharpen up to a high polish FAST. That steel likes being super high polish too unlike some steel. It takes to it really well. You can do really narrow edge angles with it too. Probably the best value and most versitile steels out there. You can put it on an axe or a pocket knife and itll perform great either way. Only reason it isnt popular is because its not the edge retention monster that everyone wants these days wants. For that go Maxamet!
Best edge retention test ever real world use and the truth thank you for making the videos you do I watched similar videos to this in the past and always believe that the person doing the video was picking his favorite steel in a lot of the videos you can almost see the person sabotaging the test while cutting paper I really enjoy your videos
Fron your other videos and rhe opinions in these commenrs. if i have to make thousands of cuts and sharpen away a knife to nothing to say its so close it could just be human error is the only difference that makes one knife better than the other in edge retention i would call it definitive enough. ( thankfully you did the worst part of the job for us). Heat treat on a lower end steel levels the playing field. Great video thanks for your meticulous testing.
Alex this video definitely deserves a thumbs up from me!
And got it!!!
What was the HRC of the Sage? I suspect it was pretty close to the Tenacious. The steels are probably similar enough that they would perform similarly at similar hardness in a sharpness test. I think S30v's biggest claim to fame is that it holds a working edge much longer. It might no longer be shaving sharp, but it will be sharp enough to do utilitarian tasks for a long time. I usually prefer my pocket knives at that level of sharpness anyway, as I'm much less likely to cut myself. There is a reason that S30v has been mostly replaced by M390 and 20CV in knives in the $125-$200 range. They usually get better edge retention when done well.
So about why rope is abrasive I can only speculate: I did some looking into natural fibers and rope making for my chemistry study since school had a focus on green chemistry. Most natural materials possess some silicates, this is what makes a plain leather strop work, just as a paint stirrer stick works. The small silicates are in a matrix of cellulose/lignin or skin cells and I would guess the same is true for the silicates still present in the sisal fibers. Now, I'm actually not quite sure if and why synthetic fibers would also be abrasive, that's a good different test sisal vs paracord.
EDIT: looked it up. Leather has 0,5 micron silicates in it, and natural fibers can also contain quite a big amount of inorganic materials, some sodium/potassium carbonate/bicarbonate but also significant amounts of silica depending on the plant.
EDIT2: Sisal and Manilla Hemp hover between 0,6-1,0% Ash content and about 1% 'others', the ash is mostly the carbonates which are about 2,5 Mohs hardness. But the 'others' category is where your silicates would be located in. The consistency between ropes and even between sections of the same rope will not be controlled for and therefore will introduce a variable as you elaborated on. Actual laboratory testing of knife edges is done with calibrated paper booklets with calibrated amounts of a calibrated grain of sand in between using a calibrated machine. Very expensive stuff. You and Cedric both do an amazing job in workshop science because honestly you guys' results translate better to the real world and most tests are only relative inside of its sample size, extrapolation of data like this is much harder.
Dude the orientation of the printer paper has a large impact on slicing. I hope you noticed that
agreed. Usually fiber is lined up more or less in the machine direction, than that of the transverse direction.
Its call long grain and short grain.
The fibers are the same length regardless. There orientation however is determined by the force to drag ratio (also called jet to wire) on the machine it was ran on
I’ve found very few papers that don’t have grain like this. Even tissue! Try tearing a Kleenex in orthogonal directions. Sometimes stuff like phonebook paper or newsprint is direction-agnostic.
Okay, okay it's time to get back to knife making. This edge testing is to difficult. Time to make a new knife. Great video by the way. Very thorough.
man you are an edge scientist!! i got a conclusion my self, i have like 30 knives ( all expensives ) and i say every steel is s#/t.
Paper has a grain to it. Notice the knives, once worn, had trouble cutting against the grain (in this case the shorter side). You can tell how the grain runs by ripping strips of paper. If you rip against the grain the paper will not tear into thin ribbons. This is a factor in your paper-cutting base-line most importantly when they start to become dull.
Seems like they're pretty damn equal. Anybody that wants to argue needs to get away from the sharpening system and go outside and use their knife.
Good stuff.
@@acidspaz4252
Disagreed. Steel is steel. The atoms could care less what angle you sharpen your knife at in terms of its respective composition.
That is not to say that a knife edge doesnt perform differently at various angles. But it is ti say that the composition means absolutely nothing in regards to where you sharpen your edge.
Regardless, the real test is in the REAL world. If we cant see results here, the question is, why are we paying twice the amount for s30v?
@@acidspaz4252 I'm an engineer who has worked directly with CPM materials in industrial applications. You're a fanboy who gets his technical info about steel from TH-cam and knife forums, meanwhile couldnt tell you the difference between a HRC and HRB hardness readings.
@@acidspaz4252 Sharpening angle differs for blade usage - You wouldn't want to chop with a knife sharpened at 12 degrees per side of course.. But different steels seems to have different cutting characteristics at different grades of stone they were sharpen - not always higher grade will result in better cutting and this has some to do with steel's composition (size of carbides, amount of them, etc.). But sharpening angle is mechanical property only.
@@bm510 I'm not an engineer. Please share what you know and what you would recommend?
@@acidspaz4252 aCID sPAZ You said "different steel works best with different sharpening angles" which can be hardly argued.
The purpose of this test is edge retention. Period. If you want to say one steel performs better than another at HIGH IMPACT at a specific angle then that is more comparable.
But no, were talking about edge retention here. And with that, I explain once again, your sharpening angle means JACK SHIT when it comes to the composition of steel you're using. All the measurable performance difference compared between two steels has much more to do with blade grind and other factors, and NOT the fact a sharpening angle isnt optimal for that blades respective composition. The grain structure just doesnt care 🤣
what you should have said was "different BLADES perform best as different sharpening angles" .... but you said steel.
and you're incorrect, my friend
This would be a good test to compare axes that are used to chop. Cutting rope with a knife with this method would fold over any edge. That is why you see no comparable difference. To get the best edge retention with a knife you use a slicing motion. As a wood carver you learn the best method to carve is to slice the wood. When I cut rope I would never use the method you are using. I would slice cut the rope by draping it over the knife, better yet I would use my knife that has a partial blade that was serrated. To better compare knife steel I would devise a test where slicing was involved. When cutting cardboard a great deal of heat is generated that's one reason why box cutters are made with aluminum handles to disperse the heat. And the heat becomes a factor on blade edge retention. Thank you for your videos.
wrong ir knife is not getting getting up to austenizing temp
@@TheScottyp1 Friction heat created by
cutting does have an effect on sharpness on any cutting tool. It does not have to reach austenitization temperature. Preventing heat build up in any cutting tool will increase the life of the blade.
@@rotex no its the friction...not the heat. that little bit of heat does nothing to an edge
Great testing Alex thank you for sharing your observations and your wisdom with us probably confirming some people's fears and infuriating some people's pride that is a good thing to do lots to consider I just bought a couple ganzo blades and a few other things this weekend to test out and try and see if I like and they have cheaper steels on them 440C instead of D2 or a powder Steel I'm going to see if I like them they were inexpensive and look well made and got good reviews so I'm going for it all right thank you again
Wow, what a sentence 🙈 maybe u can use something like . and , in the future 😅
@@PM-wt3ye google voice transcription....... Sorry
Man you're like a genius or something good work
with the paper test it depends on what side of the paper your using. The long edge or short edge one side depending on the paper will always be easier to cut than the other, it'll be the same on each side so both of the long sides for this paper he is using will easier to cut versus both of the short sides which will be harder to cut it's like this with pretty much all paper
Edge retention testing can be cut down to only a few cuts, I am an hvac contractor and have cut miles of fiberglass duct board, that stuff will dull a ceramic knife in a few cuts, best knife I have found to cut duct board is a cheap serrated steak knife
Interesting... I'm blown away ya got those results on the sisal. Try testing on that seasoned hickory : )
Creat video and great effort, thanks you. One question, which was easier to sharpen? (Sorry if this has already been asked)
well, here is what i think would be a good and fast test to measure edge retention in the household way:
take a pile of the same kind of paper. apply a weight on the top of the part of the blade that cuts that pile. cutting is being performed from above. now simply cut the exact same distance repeatedly of lines on that paper pile: pull it, only let it cut downwards by the applied weight.
after 10 lines or so, see how deep the blade cut in the pile of paper. means for example: did it cut to the 4th paper from the above, to the 5th?
repeating the same with another knife and same weight. for this test, the exact same edge angle would be crucial. also letting the blade slice in an almost perfect 90° angle.
i think there should be some kind of material, thats easily available worldwide. then let the people pull their knives with the same weight over it, then we all finally had some kind of scale to measure edge retention of whatever knife, like: knife xy cuts to the fifth paper after the distance of 100cm, in short like: 5/100
if u read this, id be glad to get a response.
btw im surprised, that no manufactor or "steel/knife expert", as youtube is full of such, is joining these videos to explain whats happening here. i mean where is the sense in buying a 300euro knife, if some 5euro knife cuts the same?
btw: im liking that vids of urs here. saves many people a heck of cash. very nice.
That was pretty interesting. Thanks!
It seems that the lesson on this would be that both blades are going to retain an edge well enough that a little edge maintenance is going to keep the knife usably sharp for a long time.
By maintenance, I mean stropping occassinally as the edge shows that it needs a touch up.
this dude is the most accurate tester I have seen on youtube
Nah...lots of better testers. Cedric and ada, supersteelsteve, outpost76 all do much better testing 🙂
Cedric & Ada >
I had an SOG in 8cr13 that would shave hard woods... I run my knives through a 3 step system every week or after any heavy usage...
I now carry a 9cr14 that gets, maybe a bit sharper, but seems to need a bit more maintenance...
The d2 I have will work all day but loses the razor edge quickly and takes work to keep it...
This is a great test! However, if you want to get the most out of the S30Vs edge retention qualities, you have to sharpen with diamond stones or at least silicon carbide stones.
???? How does that work? Why would the medium you sharpen on affect edge retention?
@@jwelch1981 Because of the S30Vs vanadium content, super hard carbides. You will need diamond stone/hone to get the most out of the steel.
@@jwelch1981 A lot of things affect edge retention. Type of abrasive, grit used, edge angle, free hand vs guided system, how good of edge you did/working through the grits and deburring. That's just things you can affect, forget steel type, heat treatment, geometry and blade thickness/grind.
Some steels do better with a coarse edge, some with a finer. Some work better on waterstones/AlOx and other on diamond or CBN. I've had m390 and M4 that liked a more polished edge done with waterstones and other that like a coarser diamond edge. Then another that did way better with a polished diamond edge.
I learned that if a knife isn't performing well its usually something I'm doing. Ill mess around with edge angles, finish and abrasives and mist times find something that works better. Sure there's times that no matter what you try nothing really works. Good example was Ritter Grip in s30v when Benchmade first tried the steel. It got so overheated that no matter how much I sharpened it had huge burrs and edge retention was terrible. They weren't used to high vanadium steels and the low grindability they possess compared to a 154cm. Elmax went through that too but I learned not to buy a new steel unless its from a custom maker known for heat treatment. The industry goes through growing pains and learns how to do a steel justice, especially now that they've had experience with carbide monsters like s110v, maxamet, 10v/k390 and others.
Seems like mist are doing Magnacut pretty good from the jump which is nice to hear.
I have never seen someone saw through paper like that. I think that may impact results. If you look at how you cut the paper are not cutting with just the dulled portion of the blade.
I THINK BECAUSE, a old time knife maker was shown years ago testing his own builds and used this rope, and now all the guys on YT started using it. Saw that video, years ago.
People have been testing with rope for ages. I did some of the very first edge retention testing with rope on my other channel almost 10 years ago.
what i love about 8cr13mov is that with a few strokes on my cutlery steel i can easily bring the edge back to razor. i will take a steel that is easy to sharpen and touch up over a hard to sharpen premium steel, any day! also with the low price of 8cr ,i can buy and carry two budget knives and double my edge retention that way.
Youd like 14c28n then. Its cheap and easy to sharpen. Average edge retention, but its toughness and stainlessness are incredible. On paper it scores shockingly similarly to MagnaCut. It is just a little less stainless, and has just a little less edge retention, but its actually considerably TOUGHER than MagnaCut and probably 1/10th the price. It can also take a high polish and thin edge as good as the best of them.
I admired you to be such a persistent tester. Painful to watch but you served the purpose well to inform to some degree on real life situation. To me, If I can use a section of the blade to cut the rope a few hundred times, I'll be satisfied with the blade. And if you shift to another section of the blade, then many more cuts with the knife...What is not to like? I do not think that many of us use the knife that much in any single day. Case closed.
Someone was reminded that the current policy in the USA is to avoid Chinese-made 8Cr13MoV (boo) and to promote US-made steel such as the ATS and CPM series. That makes 8Cr13MoV the all-round steel and D2 which anyone can provide, the new carbon steel. And you are brave enough to show it. Kudos.
This wasn't posted recently..
You may not believe this, but paper actually has a grain structure. That's why both knives would still cut well on the long side of the paper, but not the short side.
Like wood?
Dan Dildarious Not sure exactly how it works, but a good friend of mine who used to work in the paper industry, pointed it out to me while I was doing a paper cut test. Go figure, I would have thought the grain structure of the wood would be destroyed during the paper production process.
Thanks, I'll have to test this out... fwiw, I remember Sal Glesser saying he used to test with national geographic magazine paper.
Dan Dildarious Been awhile since I read National Geographic, so I don't remember how thin their paper is, but, the thinner the paper, the harder it is to cut with an edge that's not so sharp. I use the Sportsman's Guide catalogs that come in the mail once or twice a month.... Super thin pages!
Not quite like wood. It is much more consistent than wood. As it goes through the machine the grain aligns itself with the direction of travel.
With a duller knife you will find it more likely to rip when going with the grain than against it because it takes less force to rip the paper and a dull knife requires more force to cut than a sharp one. So if cutting against the grain it is more likely to to cut than tear.
Also that is why thinner paper is harder to cut than thicker paper. Because it takes less force to tear the paper hence why the knife needs to be sharper to cut phone book paper than printer paper.
The wood analogy works though. Imagine cutting with the grain and against the grain. Then imagine using a dull knife, the dull one will still cut against the grain but with the grain it will split it rather than cut which is analogous to ripping paper.
This is probably the most boring thing I have ever explained in a youtube comment section lol.
I'll tell you what I really want to see - a tensile strength test of some kind. If 8cr13 can be treated to perform the same in edge retention as s30v, I want to see if it still retains the toughness 8cr13 is known for. Because if it has the same edge retention AND remains tougher... shouldn't that make it objectively better steel?