The S1 and S2 House of the Dragon differences are largely due to the influence of Miguel in S1. He knew how to present a serialized TV show. Once he left there was no one who could present a cohesive and coherent narrative. Whims were indulged over the creative integrity of the story.
Not just whims - agendas. It doesn't feel like there's anyone there anymore who wants to tell GRRM's story. They want to tell their own fanfiction, wrapped in the pretense of an adaptation. Condal's inexperience as a showrunner became painfully apparent in S2. He and Hess lost control of the story entirely. I don't think it would have happened, even with the writers' strike and shortened season, if Miguel had still been involved.
D&D were very good while they cared. Condal and Hess tho... Hess is literally the opposite. She said she doesn't care about source material and Condal I think he means well at least but damn it it ain't perfect bro
That's what I think angered George the most, he felt he could trust Condal with the lore and it all fell apart. Ryan needed to shoot down the stuff that Hess and others injected into the show. As others mentioned I think the loss of Miguel Sapochnik was the critical thing.
D&D literally didn't use 2 of the 5 books and left out a lot of important characters, especially a very important character that could complicate Daenerys and Jon's
@@johndinobuff583 for a good reason. Last two books are very questionable Not every book character is important either. Tho some of them are. Stone heart should have been in the show If you're talking about young griff then no. The story could work without him
@@TheHellyeahmen With time I've become more lenient about those omissions by D&D. Around the point they would've included the Young Griff storyline, it was clear that Winds wasn't coming out, and with so many characters already in play, and no endgame for them, I think adding more at that stage would've just further complicated things for them.
I don't understand how all of these people don't realize we want FAITHFUL ADAPTATIONS of grrm's work and not their fucking fanfics. I don't CARE about their original ideas. I just want to see what I read on the screen. How is that so fucking hard for HBO??
It's crazy too that the story unraveled after only one season. At least it took time for D&D. House of the Dragon was only supposed to be 4 seasons, and they couldn't even get that right.
It's amazing how people will hijack another person's story, and the result is they ruin it for the author and are criticized themselves for injecting their own narrative. Whereas if they did a faithful adaptation then perhaps at some point they could then be able to have their own original content in a series or film.
@@dekuuchiha9990 Many of the creative choices were impacted by the unfinished story. Characters were excluded, but it's easier to do that than to try and find an ending for a story that is as large as the one in those novels.
I dont think anyone would of thought it could get worse than Game of Thrones final seasons - then we got the HTD debacle. I bet Dan and Dave smile that there is something far worse ....... haha.
You are smoking crack if you think anything in Hotd is near game of thrones season 7 and 8. I would argue nothing has dipped below season the quality of seasons 5 and 6 of game of thrones. There’s nothing as cringey as the Dorne plotline. HOTD is also based off of a much less detailed source material than GOT. Rather than find things to cut and make more simple, hotd had to fill in holes and incomplete characters. Even George himself said Viserys in HOTD is better than Viserys in the books because the characters in the books are written like historical figures, not at all like how you would write characters in a drama.
I do also think letting Miguel go was a BIG mistake they should've made his wife a producer we really needed Miguel for season 2, part of the show as producer / director
That situation was strange. She was creatively involved with Season 1, and the way producer credits are often given out to people in films or TV, it shouldn't have been that big of a deal since he was co-showrunner.
@@reelworld1I made this exact same argument years ago. I was like "letting go of sapochnik is stupid, just give his wife a producer credit!" I despise that I was correct.
Exactly, just give her a credit but then have her work on all the behind the scenes parts. HBO better be grovelling at his feet begging him to comeback and fix this mess and when he refuses they should put him on Dunk and Egg or Conquest, give his wife a damn credit and be done with it.
The crazy thing is the Dance of the Dragons would've been the perfect series for them, shorter at only 4 seasons with huge dramatic moments they've would've looked forward.
Condal and Hess wanted to write their onscreen Team Rhaenyra/Rhaenicent fanfiction and make it canon. HOTD doesn’t even link to GOT in tone, feeling, or attitudes.
True, House of the Dragon also feels "small." This is the season where we should've had more focus on some of the other Houses. The Starks are significant in the endgame. Also Jace's trip North was important in Fire and Blood, but we only got a 2 minute scene in the premiere.
As much as I hate to give them credit, I will give it when it's due. D&D did do a good job for 4 seasons. They got lazy and slippy, there is no denying that, but we did have good 4 years. Also, I love that line from Storm of the Century. It is so fundamentally true.
After S1 everyone was talking about what was going to happen when it came back. Now next to nothing is being said about the third season. With such a long wait inbetween the seasons it's going to lose even more interest because it ended so badly.
I bet Dan and Dave were satisfied that day George released his blog attacking HotD. It's a shame that all the great work by the CGI people on the HotD dragons went to waste. Funny thing is I on a short 4 season run like HotD D&D could've done an amazing job with the story of the Dance and would've been motivated to put all those really big moments in the story on screen like they were with the huge twists in the first 4 seasons of GoT.
I believe HBO green lit House of the Dragon first out of all the potential project because of the dragons of course, but then also because it's a pretty simple, straightforward story. Then Season 2 happened...
D&D literally didn't use 2 of the 5 books, thus, skipping a lot of important characters especially Aegon the Young Griff who was recognized as Rhaegar's son who survived. He already started invading some parts of Stormlands. It complicates Dany's claim to the iron throne.
Rhaenyra in action in the books is explain easy in the books. She had very diffuclt misgairge, her father just died and her son was murder as envoy, she was shell-shock leaving Jace,Corlys and Rhaenys incharge until after the Gullet were his death broke her out and made her unforgiving and hard explaining her decline form the realms delight to some compared to Maegor. Instead we got someone complaining that she can't do stuff. Because we can't have a woman seen weakend and shock by grieve, and can do no wrong.
The irony is that by trying to make her flawless, she comes across as stupid and weak. Rhaenyra dressed as a septa to meet with Alicent in King's Landing, was like a parody.
@@reelworld1@reelworld1 Oh, that and the Rhaenys scene were my red flags. I was willing to, okay, that's the strike for this season. But then we got all the boring and irritating episodes past episode 4. However, the episode was faulty. As Rhaenys was a dum idiot. The King's dragon is down. Retreat and only have to kill Vhagar and Tessarion. They had advantages after that, but no, a woman's empower moment came of it. | I know she was supposed to die, but still. If they followed the books, there would be a problem.
@@kjellduteweert9262 Yes, the way it was written made no sense. In the book we're led to believe she was just in the thick of the fight with Sunfyre and Vhagar and went down. Here it's a suicide mission. Just go back to Dragonstone. It's not as if Aemond was even following her, and she had to fight. He was focused on where Aegon went down.
D&D are better. Here's why I can say that. When given a clear outline of events, they can keep to it with a decent amount of fidelity. Season 1-4 with the expection of the Tysha confession is the proof. Creative freedom is only a benefit if you ca work within that outline while adding things to make it better. Season 1 of HOTD was a quality production. Season 2, by the end, made me dislike all but maybe 5-8 characters. And I don't mean in the sense on Cersei, where I dislike them, but they're still good characters.
D&D didn't use 2 of the 5 books and skipped a lot of important characters, especially one that would make the story much much interesting and it concerns Daenerys
I don't think dumb an dumber would've been any better or good at all with HOTD they ruined GOT destroyed Danny's character arch especially season 2 an in Meereen the whole house of the undying was botched none of it made any sense from what happened in the book's they made her look arrogant cruel as she doesn't feed anyone to her dragon's didn't lock Xaro an Doria in the safe as sge died in the red waste xaro is still alive goes to see her in Meereen tge real vision should've been shown to make sence later in the story
I don’t think d & d would be better and I think a large issue with season 2s perception is the fact that the show was 8 episodes and was leading up to a conflict we never get to see. There were writing issues within the show but most episodes were good with some of them being great like episode 2 and 4. D & D were good at adapting a detailed source material and making it very entertaining for t.v but fire and blood is not a detailed source material.
The S1 and S2 House of the Dragon differences are largely due to the influence of Miguel in S1. He knew how to present a serialized TV show. Once he left there was no one who could present a cohesive and coherent narrative. Whims were indulged over the creative integrity of the story.
Not just whims - agendas. It doesn't feel like there's anyone there anymore who wants to tell GRRM's story. They want to tell their own fanfiction, wrapped in the pretense of an adaptation.
Condal's inexperience as a showrunner became painfully apparent in S2. He and Hess lost control of the story entirely. I don't think it would have happened, even with the writers' strike and shortened season, if Miguel had still been involved.
Sapochnik wasn’t a writer. Director Alan Taylor, who did Rook’s Rest, is also a Game of Thrones veteran
D&D were very good while they cared.
Condal and Hess tho...
Hess is literally the opposite. She said she doesn't care about source material and Condal I think he means well at least but damn it it ain't perfect bro
That's what I think angered George the most, he felt he could trust Condal with the lore and it all fell apart. Ryan needed to shoot down the stuff that Hess and others injected into the show. As others mentioned I think the loss of Miguel Sapochnik was the critical thing.
D&D literally didn't use 2 of the 5 books and left out a lot of important characters, especially a very important character that could complicate Daenerys and Jon's
@@johndinobuff583 for a good reason. Last two books are very questionable
Not every book character is important either. Tho some of them are. Stone heart should have been in the show
If you're talking about young griff then no. The story could work without him
@@TheHellyeahmen With time I've become more lenient about those omissions by D&D. Around the point they would've included the Young Griff storyline, it was clear that Winds wasn't coming out, and with so many characters already in play, and no endgame for them, I think adding more at that stage would've just further complicated things for them.
I don't understand how all of these people don't realize we want FAITHFUL ADAPTATIONS of grrm's work and not their fucking fanfics. I don't CARE about their original ideas. I just want to see what I read on the screen. How is that so fucking hard for HBO??
It's crazy too that the story unraveled after only one season. At least it took time for D&D. House of the Dragon was only supposed to be 4 seasons, and they couldn't even get that right.
Hess never wanted to adapt asoiaf material, she wanted to write her own story and it shows
It's obvious from interviews that Hess doesn't respect fantasy as a genre or George as a writer. For her the show is a vehicle, nothing more.
It's amazing how people will hijack another person's story, and the result is they ruin it for the author and are criticized themselves for injecting their own narrative. Whereas if they did a faithful adaptation then perhaps at some point they could then be able to have their own original content in a series or film.
People let this happen.
D&D is like watching a good meal go bad, condal & hess is just shitting on a plate
I'll always curse Dan and Dave for what they did to Game of Thrones but they're much more talented than the House of the Dragon clown car team.
They're adapters. They are good at it. George failed them, never sell an unifinished story.
@@dekuuchiha9990 They had some good original content, things like Hardhome.
@@dekuuchiha9990 Many of the creative choices were impacted by the unfinished story. Characters were excluded, but it's easier to do that than to try and find an ending for a story that is as large as the one in those novels.
@@dekuuchiha9990they stopped adapting most of the story before they even ran out of material
They got lays at end.
I dont think anyone would of thought it could get worse than Game of Thrones final seasons - then we got the HTD debacle. I bet Dan and Dave smile that there is something far worse ....... haha.
You are smoking crack if you think anything in Hotd is near game of thrones season 7 and 8. I would argue nothing has dipped below season the quality of seasons 5 and 6 of game of thrones. There’s nothing as cringey as the Dorne plotline. HOTD is also based off of a much less detailed source material than GOT. Rather than find things to cut and make more simple, hotd had to fill in holes and incomplete characters. Even George himself said Viserys in HOTD is better than Viserys in the books because the characters in the books are written like historical figures, not at all like how you would write characters in a drama.
I do also think letting Miguel go was a BIG mistake they should've made his wife a producer we really needed Miguel for season 2, part of the show as producer / director
That situation was strange. She was creatively involved with Season 1, and the way producer credits are often given out to people in films or TV, it shouldn't have been that big of a deal since he was co-showrunner.
@@reelworld1I made this exact same argument years ago. I was like "letting go of sapochnik is stupid, just give his wife a producer credit!" I despise that I was correct.
Wasn't his wife also the same person who wanted more wokeness?
Exactly, just give her a credit but then have her work on all the behind the scenes parts. HBO better be grovelling at his feet begging him to comeback and fix this mess and when he refuses they should put him on Dunk and Egg or Conquest, give his wife a damn credit and be done with it.
Bet Tolkien is laughing his arse off.
I never expected that to be a possibility, but season 2 of House of the dragon made me miss Dan & Dave desperatly.
The crazy thing is the Dance of the Dragons would've been the perfect series for them, shorter at only 4 seasons with huge dramatic moments they've would've looked forward.
Condal and Hess wanted to write their onscreen Team Rhaenyra/Rhaenicent fanfiction and make it canon. HOTD doesn’t even link to GOT in tone, feeling, or attitudes.
True, House of the Dragon also feels "small." This is the season where we should've had more focus on some of the other Houses. The Starks are significant in the endgame. Also Jace's trip North was important in Fire and Blood, but we only got a 2 minute scene in the premiere.
As much as I hate to give them credit, I will give it when it's due.
D&D did do a good job for 4 seasons. They got lazy and slippy, there is no denying that, but we did have good 4 years.
Also, I love that line from Storm of the Century. It is so fundamentally true.
After S1 everyone was talking about what was going to happen when it came back. Now next to nothing is being said about the third season. With such a long wait inbetween the seasons it's going to lose even more interest because it ended so badly.
I bet Dan and Dave were satisfied that day George released his blog attacking HotD. It's a shame that all the great work by the CGI people on the HotD dragons went to waste. Funny thing is I on a short 4 season run like HotD D&D could've done an amazing job with the story of the Dance and would've been motivated to put all those really big moments in the story on screen like they were with the huge twists in the first 4 seasons of GoT.
I believe HBO green lit House of the Dragon first out of all the potential project because of the dragons of course, but then also because it's a pretty simple, straightforward story. Then Season 2 happened...
D&D literally didn't use 2 of the 5 books, thus, skipping a lot of important characters especially Aegon the Young Griff who was recognized as Rhaegar's son who survived. He already started invading some parts of Stormlands. It complicates Dany's claim to the iron throne.
Rhaenyra in action in the books is explain easy in the books. She had very diffuclt misgairge, her father just died and her son was murder as envoy, she was shell-shock leaving Jace,Corlys and Rhaenys incharge until after the Gullet were his death broke her out and made her unforgiving and hard explaining her decline form the realms delight to some compared to Maegor.
Instead we got someone complaining that she can't do stuff. Because we can't have a woman seen weakend and shock by grieve, and can do no wrong.
The irony is that by trying to make her flawless, she comes across as stupid and weak. Rhaenyra dressed as a septa to meet with Alicent in King's Landing, was like a parody.
@@reelworld1@reelworld1 Oh, that and the Rhaenys scene were my red flags. I was willing to, okay, that's the strike for this season. But then we got all the boring and irritating episodes past episode 4. However, the episode was faulty. As Rhaenys was a dum idiot. The King's dragon is down. Retreat and only have to kill Vhagar and Tessarion. They had advantages after that, but no, a woman's empower moment came of it. |
I know she was supposed to die, but still. If they followed the books, there would be a problem.
@@kjellduteweert9262 Yes, the way it was written made no sense. In the book we're led to believe she was just in the thick of the fight with Sunfyre and Vhagar and went down. Here it's a suicide mission. Just go back to Dragonstone. It's not as if Aemond was even following her, and she had to fight. He was focused on where Aegon went down.
D&D are better. Here's why I can say that. When given a clear outline of events, they can keep to it with a decent amount of fidelity. Season 1-4 with the expection of the Tysha confession is the proof. Creative freedom is only a benefit if you ca work within that outline while adding things to make it better. Season 1 of HOTD was a quality production. Season 2, by the end, made me dislike all but maybe 5-8 characters. And I don't mean in the sense on Cersei, where I dislike them, but they're still good characters.
I dislike most of the characters now too. And aside from Aegon, most of the ones I'm okay with are secondary ones.
D&D didn't use 2 of the 5 books and skipped a lot of important characters, especially one that would make the story much much interesting and it concerns Daenerys
I liked the Dancing Queen part. lol👯
I don't think dumb an dumber would've been any better or good at all with HOTD they ruined GOT destroyed Danny's character arch especially season 2 an in Meereen the whole house of the undying was botched none of it made any sense from what happened in the book's they made her look arrogant cruel as she doesn't feed anyone to her dragon's didn't lock Xaro an Doria in the safe as sge died in the red waste xaro is still alive goes to see her in Meereen tge real vision should've been shown to make sence later in the story
Will you watch S3 of HotD
Yes, I'll be watching it. The one thing they've done an excellent job with is the creation of the dragons. The story now though is unsalvageable.
I wonder if D&D and HBO had stopped the series after the book material ran out if people would've been angrier at them, or Martin.
The backlash would've been strong against HBO. People were angry when they canceled Deadwood.
They didn’t “run out” of source material, they abandoned it.
Early that was Dale from Walking Dead
Hi! 3:02
Hey man, don't you sully the good name of Z Nation!
I don’t think d & d would be better and I think a large issue with season 2s perception is the fact that the show was 8 episodes and was leading up to a conflict we never get to see. There were writing issues within the show but most episodes were good with some of them being great like episode 2 and 4. D & D were good at adapting a detailed source material and making it very entertaining for t.v but fire and blood is not a detailed source material.