George goes on & on about his "gardener" writing style where the story grows organically and he simply follows were it leads. ANY gardener will tell you it takes discipline to grow a garden. And it's not just weeding, it's pulling up plants you like or moving them to new locations for the benefit of that plant and others. Without rigorous and somwtimes ruthless discipline, what you end up with is an overgrown, listless area where nothing really grows, everything just exists. Martin has always seen himself as a peer or even superior to Tolkien when in truth he's the dollar-store version.
That "gardener" writing style is what is referred to as Discovery Writing. Eventually you need to do some sort of the outline writing process to finish it all together. That goes for being more of an outliner as eventually you need to do some discovery to bring it to the end.
My writing style is the same, as my characters often will take the story in directions I hadn't intended. That said though, my series reached its end and try as I might, I really can't come up with anything else for it as the characters are done so the story is as well. Martin's problem is that the story ended with the show so it's also ended in his head.
Why are you making up shit with the Tolkien garbage. Martin has always revered Tolkien and to hear himself say It never has or never will think he's a better writer
If anyone has ever read anything other than ASOIAF of Martin's, the 1000 Worlds & Wild Cards series etc... You'll know he is brilliant at creating worlds and characters, but he has absolutely NO idea how to finish a story. They all just... End. He was never going to finish ASOIAF. I figured this out back in 2019.
He has the money, hire a team to finish it and give 1000 feet guidance from on high, let them do the grunt work! I actually wouldn't mind at all if he did that! I completely get making your bag and wanting to retire, I can't blame anyone for that, or getting tired of the IP. At least that would show he cares about the fans and it having an ending. If he's consulting from on high I really think that would be more than fine for most people.
@thepunisherxxx6804 Hell, maybe not even a team. Just a ghost writer who needs a fat check and is okay with remaining anonymous. It may sting his ego, but it's better than being remembered as the guy that let HBO finish his series... poorly.
I ask myself sometimes. I know hindsight is 20/20, but what if D&D bought the rights to do the show, and struck an agreement to actually start shooting once all the books were done?
Tolkien continued to write his vast Legendarium during WWI, as an academic and while taking care of his family. Meanwhile, George "Fat F*ck" Martin is boohoo depressed and can't give his fans the book they've been wanting for over a decade.
I'd have more respect for Martin if he just came out and said he's lost passion for the series and it won't be finished. Unfortunately interviews and red carpet events seem to be more on his priority list than being loyal to fans who supported him.
@@samael4550 If you have to ask? You're going to ignore the answer. (It relates to character flaws most nerds have but fervently deny. And since you're here being defensive? It's because you are also a nerd, and subject to that same denial.)
@@ephraimwinslow you have some issues my guy, it was a simple question… instead of talking about all the flaws other people have (and not at all being specific, like everyone is supposed to magically know what you mean), maybe you should gain some self awareness.
@@ephraimwinslow He has the money, hire a team to finish it and give 1000 feet guidance from on high, let them do the grunt work! I actually wouldn't mind at all if he did that! I completely get making your bag and wanting to retire, I can't blame anyone for that, or getting tired of the IP. At least that would show he cares about the fans and it having an ending. If he's consulting from on high I really think that would be more than fine for most people. "Most nerds" dude its most PEOPLE. Again, can't blame the guy for making his bag and wanting to retire!
These were my thoughts too. I'd go farther and say Martin is either a coward or not as smart as he thought he was. The fact that he's not finished the book points to one of those. He can't manage to tie up all the loose ends and plot holes to his satisfaction, and he doesn't want to "face the music".
I don't think he is worried about that. I think it's that the fans guessed the ending to the books a long time ago and he got butt hurt about it. He can't come up with a better ending so he refuses to finish it.
it is only silly if you are a fan of the HbO's version of the story, edit: Nerdrotic/Gary is right, Bran can be the best king, Dany can still fall to Targaeryen Delulu and d&e... i despise the HbO's adaptation from Day1... its world lacks the mysticism of the books plainn simple, it is just a dry medieval world with a lil dragon and bits of magic there thats it. but even than i in the conclusion of the show can see glimpse of a solid ending (Dany's fall, Bran's coronation, Jon ending the bigBad cuz no book Arya sure as sht is not gonna girlboss on the NK equivalent ffs) these all can work, but all roads lead to Jon being getting a reluctnt hero's journey of some sort and GRRM just refuses to give Jon that for some reason
@@theskycavedinyeah after all these years hundreds of people have all but written it for him. Just have the white walkers show up, have all these factions set aside their differences to defeat the white walkers, then have the survivors agree upon a new ruler. It's not that hard.
He has the money, hire a team to finish it and give 1000 feet guidance from on high, let them do the grunt work! I actually wouldn't mind at all if he did that! I completely get making your bag and wanting to retire, I can't blame anyone for that, or getting tired of the IP. At least that would show he cares about the fans and it having an ending. If he's consulting from on high I really think that would be more than fine for most people.
It is a complicated story though, so many loose ends need to be tied up, and so much risk of disappointing fans and not tying up all said loose ends. I'm not defending him, I think he's used up his excuses, but I recognise that it is an undertaking to finish this story properly. I, like many others, personally think the heroic fantasy ending is best.
naw the problem is fans feeling entitled to someones work. yall are the definition of a toxic fanbase its usually the lgbt side that is this obsessed good to see the right leaners can be unhinged morons too
Post-modernists can't tell mythic stories. It's about deconstructing myths, not building them. So while Martin's series is gritty, surprising, and engaging... it doesn't speak to the mythic human spirit. Martin gave his general ending to the show runners, they butchered it (although it would never have been great), and now Martin -- having seen the ending he planned panned by so many -- is "trapped." As long as he doesn't finish the books, he doesn't have to fear destroying his series. Unfinished post-modern masterpiece or finished series that started out great and then failed?
I found Tolkien's books and their movie adaptations boring af and terrible, whereas I love Game of Thrones (even with the ending) and I really enjoyed the books so far. So being the anti-Tolkien is not necessarily a bad thing.
Funny enough when Michael Moorcock wrote Elric, he made the character the opposite of Conan but used Poul Anderson's Broken Sword, Three Hearts and Three Lions books, and the character Monsieur Zenith to create one of the most iconic series in fantasy and he finished it. The crazy part is that Moorcock still writes books even to this day and he's 6 years older then Martin!
Before Season 8, there was a lot of talk about how it would end. I jokingly suggested the Night King win and everyone dies miserably ever after. Actually, my end would have been better.
Its the only plausible outcome based on how narcissistic and incompetent all those characters are. How could they hope to stand against an enemy that requires constant vigilance and unity to defeat. I was sad when the tv series ended the threat so quickly and most of westeros didnt see a single undead...
"I cut my teeth in the trenches of the Somme! You LARP-ed your Santa Claus arse through Vietnam!" - J.R.R. Tolkien to George R.R. Martin in Epic Rap Battles of History
I think hes better i am sorry lord of the ring is so boring just my opinion you do not have to agree with it. But George does need to get a move on and release the last two books. I will say one thing about talking at least he finished the damn books.
@@callumhughes6448 Lord of the Rings is "boring" because it was written decades ago and has been explored 'to death' and spawned hundreds or thousands of universes. It's the High Fantasy Meta and Standard. Now imagine LOTR writing...before LOTR came out. (GRRM will never have the impact on writing that JRRT did. It's generic medieval drama with some dragons and ice zombies.- oh.. and lots and lots of gratuitous sex to get people "interested" in the first place.)
@@Livewyr7 I totally disagree with you George's characters are very real and flawed human beings. Jaime Lannister is such an interesting character because he is such a dichotomy between Good and Evil. Compare that with the character of Aragon who is good all the way through and he's only struggle revolves around weather not to take the throne Gondor. The only character in Lord of the Rings that is interesting is Boomer. Thats because he is tempted by the One Ring and acts upon it, he breaks the trust of the fellowship and tries to kidnap Frodo Baggins. However he comes to his senses and a dies trying to protect Frodo. He is a flawed and believable character. The only other flawed character is Gollum and that is because of his split personality between Golem and Smiggle. Every other character is two camps good or evil. Another thing that JRR Tolkien did wrong in my opinion was have boring designs for all of his characters. In Lord of the Rings if you look evil you are evil. In contrast in A Song of Ice an Fire the character is judged on his or hres actions. I do believe in Lord of the Rings Tyrion would have been a bad guy becsuse of his looks but he is not he is a good guy. However in Game of Thrones every body is a flawed character capable of both Good and Evil. Hence why I like A Song of Ice and Fire i think the characters more interesting in A Song of Ice and Fire, and I am invested in their journeys more.
@@callumhughes6448 You're not said anything counter to what I said. (And it seems you have a "I watched the movies" level understanding of middle earth. Imagine if I had watched Season 7 of GoT and said "The only interesting characters are Baelish and Cersei...I suspect you would find it difficult to take me seriously.) You've broken down what makes ASIF a generic political drama set in a medieval tech world. If that's more your bag than a large scale world and timeline, then that's fine- but that does not make Middle Earth a boring world/story. (Should you read the LOTR books as well as the other material, you'll likely be surprised as to how many grey area players/antiheroes/political creatures there are.)
@@Livewyr7 First, Aragorn in the book intends to take the throne from the beginning. The fear of becoming king is only in the movie I just want to say how intelligent the characters in Tolkien's books are at solving problems and being aware of dangers, which you will never see in the movies (where a lot of the scenes have them being stupid characters doing stupid things). There was never a moment when we questioned the characters' irrational actions
Michael Moorcock may have had disagreements with Tolkien but what he wrote was Elric of Melnibone with it being more than subversion of Conan and sword and sorcery in general and he didn't brag about it being a subversion, he owed Poul Anderson a great deal for influencing his works, he finished his story and continued writing books even to this day, and he's older then Martin by 6 years.
My own theory, which I talked about briefly with Gary at a Vegas meetup, is that GRRM has "gone Hollywood", with various friends and colleagues who have the current Hollywood woke mindset. Plus in the last 10 years the sci-fi/fantasy book genre has gone very woke too. So that means there is no more room in his life for gritty stories full of violence, especially the violence against women GRRM wrote in the first 2/3 of ASOIAF. That, plus modern sensibilities about a woman (Dany) going crazy-evil and having to be killed off by a man to save the world means he can't finish the series.
There is a theory that the writing of the early books was basically carried by "editorial assistants" who did all the heavy lifting and have since gone on to other things, such that GRRM on his own is simply not up to keeping the whole saga coherent or complete. The steep drop in quality of the last two books supposedly reflects this.
Same thing is suspected of the Harry Potter series. The most popular theory is that one of the Mitford sisters wrote the first three. She popped off and they could find no one to match the style or had a clue about finishing the story.
Most people can't keep up their own quality throughout their life. A drop in quality doesn't mean someone else wrote something. It is called getting older or losing passion.
I don't think this specifically was the case, but I do believe he peaked at The Red Wedding and he's been lost on how to finish it ever since; early books were primarily foreshadowing and building to RW, RW happened, and then most of the story after has either been the lingering aftereffects of RW or entirely new characters/plot lines that seem meandering and bloat the (already bloated) story. GRRM is basically Linguini from Ratatouille, he messed up the soup and is just desperately adding in anything nearby trying to fix it, but it's making it worse...
George borrowed a lot from Tad Williams from Memory, Sorrow and Thorn. Excellent series which deserves to be adapted well. If anything Tad was the revolutionary because he did do a darker take on Tolkien but still had a hero/ hero’s journey in Simon the main character.
My favorite series. While I bought book 3 from The Last King of Osten Ard when it came out, I held off on reading it until the last book came out read them back to back. I was holding off on reading Game of Thrones, even though I had been gifted the novel years before I actually read it. But when the show got anounced, I figured I wanted to read it first to form my own impressions and not show runners (though I had already seen Sean Bean cast as Ned, so I did picture him as Ned in my reading) So I only have had a 14 year wait on it. :)
The same thing happened with Patrick rothfuss and his series “the kingkiller chronicles.” He started getting famous and quit writing even though he promised the whole series was already written and would be out in three years. That was like 14 years ago.
I don't think you can blame the show's bad reception for too much of Martin's procrastination. He's been failing to finish the books since looooooooooooooong before the tv show ended...
I think that since the TV show has shown the ending and that he realized that most people hated it, he's not motivated to go on anymore. People who think that the show ending was not canon and just crap from the show runners are wrong. They surely have asked him what was planned and just botched it.
My ex husband is a science fiction author and he is very DISCIPLINED and writes so many thousand words a day. He has deadlines with his publishers (which moves in his words "like a glacier) from when they get the finished manuscript until it hits book stores can take years. GRRM isn't a disciplined writer and probably has pissed away his advance for Winds of Winter by now.
Considering the name of the show, I always thought the ending should be Verys and Littlefinger playing a game of chess and recounting all of their behind-the-scenes machinations, all the strings they pulled along the way, until Littlefinger came out the winner...only to have Varys peel off his face to reveal Arya, who cuts Littlefingers throat...
@@anastasiab9506 Nah, that ending would be trash. The disguise will be blown in the first few minutes because Arya might have the face but she doesn’t have the same level of intelligence as Varys.
At this point, this book series is already irrelevant, right? I mean, when south park mocked got because it didn't finished, it should have been clear, that he really won't finish it ever.
Yeah buddy, super irrelevant, that's why grifters like nerdrotic are taking George's ironic response "they think I'll die before finishing the series, maybe I will lol" out of context and framing it like a confirmation the books won't come out, and it's getting a bunch of views, because asoiaf is irrelevant.
@@ronaldjr3092 as opposed to the Hollywood Reporter’s softball access pieces (also known as grifting) where GFFM walks on water because current HBO show. You aren’t above this; you too, “consume product, don’t question until new product comes out to consume.”
Here’s a subversion: the Lord of Light is the real villain and not the others/white walkers. And instead of a final battle a peace treaty between humans and white walkers is made. And the end of constant war gets rid of the Lord of Light’s influence and power as he feeds off constant conflict. Jon is appointed king of the seven kingdoms, and everyone lives happy ever after. The End.
Or sth like this: it was discovered that the Starks descended from WWs, so when Jon was born from Targ and Stark blood, am ancient pact was broken. Jon had to be the hero and put the good of the realm before his well-being, and go sacrifice himself to the WWs to reform the peace pact between humans and WWs. That at least have a shard of heroism involved in the bittersweet ending.
I'll always say that GRRM was the ghostwriter of the Game of Thrones books or he plagiarised someone. Whoever came up with the original story, will never finish them. That person probably passed away. Change my mind. That's my story and I stick to it.
Well he ripped off Dune and reskinned it into a European fantasy setting (rather than desert based sci-fi) as the general outline of the plot right from the start. As for his more recent "Winds of Winter" specific writer's block, there's a theory out there (that Gary has also referenced in passing a few years ago) that points to the fact that George's previous personal/writing assistant was a skilled writer in his own right (the guy who wrote "The Expanse" series of sci fi books), and George's severe "writer's block" appears to miraculously coincide with when this guy went completely solo and stopped working for him. So the theory goes that (especially for Dance of Dragons) George was still creating the general ideas but had some-one else ghost-writing the intricate specifics that is a bit beyond him now, but now has completely stalled on Winds because that ghost-writer has quit. I know this is sort of the opposite of what you're saying/speculating; however imo fits a little better because George is still able to pump out all the supplemental material such as the Silmarillion knock-offs that are "Fire and Blood" etc. What he seems to have the issue with (which would track with cognitive decline from old age) are all the really detailed and nuanced dialogue, allusions and implications, etc that are the hallmark of the main-line books that all the readers have come to expect.
I thought it was common knowledge that the 'War of the Roses' was basically the source for the 'Game of Thrones'. I mean, Lancasters versus Lannisters? He barely concealed it. Part of his problem is that to be 'original' he had to diverge from the material he was stealing and so now has no idea what to do next.
@@Buddy-Dale Same thing, the bullet point that Daenerys is evil and the big bad at the end betrays the entire story. Yes she's a foolish child who makes mistakes, but turning her self sacrificing character that wants to free people into the evil Austrian from WW2 is simply insulting to the genre and dripping with nihilism.
I remember a bunch of fake spoilers for the final season that were 10 times better than what we got. If some reddit goons can do better then who cares what GRRM thinks?
It's very different. Folks that think dumb and dumber only wrote what GRRM had in mind aren't much brighter than D&D. There's a reason the show got bad when they ran out of source material. It's not because GRRM all of a sudden got bad. It's because D&D had to make it up, and they were a lot dumber than the characters George created. In GRRMs works, there's no winner in war, so this whole idea of good guys & bad guys, and the good guys win at the end, is completely antithetical to how GRRM writes. The big bads weren't going to the WWs, so they got that right, but it's not the Lanisters or the Ironborn. The big bad are the Children. It's right in front of us the whole time, and no one saw it. The Children created the WW to kill men. The Children hated men since they came over to the 7 Kingdoms and have been trying to eradicate them every since. The WW just want to be left alone. The WW built the wall, not Bran the Builder, though they did so in agreement with Bran that humans stay south of the wall. That was the pact. But over time, humans AND the Children came north of the Wall. The Children continuing to attempt to manipulate the WW to eradicate humans. The WWs, tired of being manipulated and just wanting to be left alone are on a mission to kill the Children now, including their champion, the 3-eyed Raven, aka Bran. I believe in the books, the WW will travel south to chase Bran, however there's an arrangement made that stops the battle, and the WW go back north, leaving the Starks, Ironborn, Lanisters, and Dany's army to duke it out. GRRM noted that Dany was planed from the start to survive the series. Bran is likely free from the Children or he goes to live out his days in the Isle of Faces or some such. Dany and John rule the 7 kingdoms, and Arya rules Winterfel. That's my best guess. As a side note, and I'm not giving George an out or an excuse, just an explanation...he's written WoW several times over already, and keeps scraping it and starting again. The problem is, he doesn't do outlines and wrote himself into a bad hole. He's got too many characters and plotlines and can't find a non-contrived method of bringing everyone together to provide the conclusion he had in mind. Unlike D&D, GRRM doesn't publish drivel, so he's stubbornly not publishing anything until he can figure it out. My only hope is that he lets Sanderson take over the reigns after he passes, so we can get a conclusion...even if it's not very satisfying.
the book has no point, if i want to read about never ending wars and how good people were screwed over i would read history book instead of fantasy book
The nihilistic message only works in short one-off stories or horror stories as some kind of cautionary tale. But this super long story? Having a nihilistic message will be waste of time and investment for the readers.
History got far better stories and leaders. He tried to copy the War of Roses and then rolled into a ditch of his post modernistic hate for any heroism and religion. All gods and people are shit, boo hoo. Great base for novel series.
You seem to have forgotten that the show abandoned the books in season 5. There's a full 3 seasons of rubbish that had nothing to do with the actual story. If you follow on from "dance of dragons" the Starks are over. Bran is a tree... So he can't be king. Jon is dead (didn't get resurrected in the books). Catlyn is a fire zombie (yes, there's potentially an army of fire zombies beholden to the Lord of Light that are not in the series). Rikon is feral. Arya is lost. Sansa is a prisoner, not a "girl boss" she's a trading token. Also Brienne is smashed to bits crippled and left for dead by whomever stole the Hound's helmet from his grave after he died. They blew up kings landing (like in the series) so most of those characters are dead. Tyrion is off on his foreign adventures and hasn't (yet?) met Daenerys. The big overlying story is a battle between gods that the people are caught up in. But the people are getting too distracted, by pointless things that aren't really real, to rally against the thing that will doom them all if unsolved. NB, defeating the night king In a duel is not an option because the night king (AKA captain mcguffin) was invented by the showrunners. That's why his creation contradicted ALL the lore. There's actually a 3 way god battle for Westeros between R'hllor (light and fire), The Other (cold and dark), and the Old Gods (life). Technically the Drowned god and the storm god are fighting for the sea. Whilst the many faced god and the seven don't exist because people made them up. Also remember that in the books there are two laws: Anyone who tries to be a hero gets killed by those they try to save. Anyone who is out to get all they can for themselves at the expense of others will get everything they want, only to have it immediately and brutally ripped from them. A fitting ending would actually be securing and stabilising the kingdom only to have everyone killed by the white walkers, or starve because they all burned each others farmland when they should have been preparing for winter. If he did do the Azor Ahai prophecy then it should be Jon resurrected falling for Dany, but then having to kill her, with her permission, to quench the real Lightbringer in the blood of her heart to forge the only weapon that can defeat the other (which would have been a much better ending for the show).
The ending that would fit Martin’s trademark the most is that Ramsay won the battle of bastards, then got supplanted by Littlefinger via his teenage wife Sansa Baelish (with very detailed gratuitous scene of Baelish sexually assaulting her) before overthrowing Cersei and crown himself as the new king on the iron throne. Then the white walkers led by Euron attacked. People starved to death thanks to Baelish’s corruption and his decision to sit out the whole conflict to let Euron and Dany kill each other. Once everything is over, Baelish ends up victorious, becoming the king of what’s left of Westeros while taking the credit as a savior of humanity. Meanwhile, the real savior like Daenerys died in a battle and is now gone and forgotten by history. Probably the most evil outcome but it’s so George RR Martin. In the times of crisis, being selfish is the correct thing to do for survival and those who tries to be heroic are morons who will die for nothing without being acknowledged for their good deeds. That’s his message.
George tied the Meereenese knot too tight. His novels are fantastic, which is a god damn shame because he's likely never going to finish them. Extremely disappointing news.
He needed Danny going full dragon the moment her 'husband' proved he can stop the Sons of the Harpy for 90 days, proving he's one. Bosh! Blood and Feathers! All the characters arrive to Mereen to a girl-queen, gets a welcome from a blood-soaked new Targaryen freeing her dragons. NOW WHAT Dorn/Tyrion/Mormont/Greyjoy. Instead trying to assist and guide her to your deeds, you end up on a real Targaryen court where immolation is an option.
To think...the BIG thing I used to be worried about was "I wonder if Martin will finish the 7th book before he passes away?" I never imagined that the publishing of Winds of Winter would be in jeopardy.
He doesn't just owe us an ending, he owes one to his characters as well. Also, Daenerys wouldn't burn the city if the people love Aegon, she constantly dreams of family... her first reaction wouldn't be to burn her last family member. I doubt she would care if he was a Blackfyre either, she doesn't even know the history of her family.
A lot of writers produce their best work when they're desperate and hungry. It drives them to a degree they wouldn't normally drive themselves. Let's be honest: Martin hasn't been hungry in a long, long time.
To me the perfect ending would still be that Robert baratheon comes back from the dead slaps cersei in the face and destroys daenerys's dragons with laser eyes. And throwing his Warhammer at the White Walker Kings face Then he returns home proclaims himself the true heir of durin godgrief
News flash! Over a decade ago when GoT was starting shooting, George stated he was terrible at finishing things. He has already worked with other authors about the story. Get used to the idea the story will be finish by someone other than George.
Glen Cook's "Black Company" books did the bittersweet ending and epic fantasy better. Personal theory, GrrM didn't write any of the books, the writing style matches Diane Gabaldon who used to be one of his close friends. Pretty sure she ghost wrote for him, then they had a falling out and her Outlander series took off. So now she writes these massive tomes for her own series and GrrM's has stagnated. Why can't GrrM finish "Game of Thrones"? He never wrote it to begin with. He's a hack.
The weird thing is that George wrote Fire and Blood, which is a massive book, recently. So he's not lazy. He must be intimidated or struggling with the plot.
That was mostly made up on world building notes and previous short stories he had already written. His two assistants who started as early fans and made the wiki I think helped put it together Stuff like world of ice & fire, fire blood and whatever junk is his publishers begging for anything to publish cause they’re waiting on the book too.
Cold fusion, personal jet packs, a NY Mets World Championship and either a new Gun N' Roses or System of a Down album all have the same likelyhood as the end of this series.
So many great writers were taken from the world before they could see their works through to completion. Whether that be with Frank Herbert and his Dune 7. Robert Jordan with his Wheel of Time series (yes I am aware Brandon Sanderson finished off the reminder of the books). Or Kentaro Miura's Berserk. Then there's Martin, who simply just doesn't seem to care anymore about finishing off his work. Either cause of pure laziness or just simply cause he can no longer be bothered anymore. The man has the time to write like a dozen so prequel spin-off books or write up lore and backstory for Elden Ring, but cannot finish the main series that put him on the map to begin with. Rumors go, what fans got in the dreadful finale to Game of Thrones, was actually the ending Martin intended for the books. But because it was so utterly hated, it's forced him to try and rewrite the whole ending, but cannot think of a better one so has just given up. At least that's the theory I've heard.
I believe George has painted himself into a corner in the 10th degree. All he ever wanted to be was a world-renowned writer. He achieved that late in life, but still too early to live happily ever after. If the show had started after the release of Winds (with work well underway on Spring), he could have lived out the rest of his life doing whatever he wanted, whenever he wanted it. Instead he is now in the situation where the story that determines his entire legacy turned from the most succesful TV-show in history into one of the most hated endings in history. And due to the order of release, it's now entirely up to George to find a way where that won't be his primary legacy. That's some seriously intense pleasure to put on anybody, especially an elder man who just saw his life's work and dream turn to ash the one time he actually entrusted it into the hands of others. He knows anything other than absolute perfection will be viewed as a failure that will greatly tarnish his legacy, and so he writes and rewrites in an endless cycle, hoping against all hope, to achieve flawless perfection.
Biggest problem Georgie M. has moving forward: Dragon Age Origins already told the story he should be telling, with the ending he should have (more or less) because it resolves the plot threads properly. But he won't do it.
Dont think those are great examples, since they never just went full hiatus mode for 10+ years, vagabond is prabobly best example in manga for what martin is doing
Imagine being a child and loving these books only for a tv show to come out and disappoint you but still hold hope for the book. And now your 30 and the book still hasn’t came out. That’s me
The problem wasn't that Benioff and Weiss couldn't fill in the blanks, the problem was they were no longer motivated. They treated Game of Thrones like a stepping stone to greater things, and once you feel that way, it shows in your work. The second Disney dangled a Star Wars project in front of them, continuity and story didn't matter. The show had to end, so they ended it. And in doing that, they lost in every way.
He never had a clue on how to finish his "epic". His best guess was presented on the TV series, and was received with ridicule. So now he can't do that "ending" either, and he truly has run out of ideas.
Brandon did a pretty good job with WoT. I love the last 3 books, even if his prose isn't as good as Jordan's was, it was a satisfying conclusion. I don't think Sanderson could do ASoIaF justice though. Not saying it's too good for him, I personally think WoT is better than ASoIaF, just that it's too far out of his style. Brandon also grew up reading WoT and I'm pretty sure it was his favorite series and he had read it several times. I've never heard that he has the same relationship with ASoIaF. Besides, Brandon has enough on his plate these days. He's got decades worth of writing left to finish up the Cosmere. I'd rather see that finished than ASoIaF. I've already accepted that we won't get an ending to that outside of the show, and the level of disappointment the show gave me kind of stole most of my passion for the story.
🎵This is the book series that never ends! Yes it goes on and on, my friend! Some people started reading it, not know what it was! And they'll continue reading it forever just because, this is the book series that never ends!...🎵
Frank Herbert mostly finished his mythology but had his son do all the side material for him. J RR Tolkien finished the mainline story novels, and Christopher Tolkien helped adapt a lot of his dad’s unfinished books and mythology. Does George have any family he can have continue his work after he dies?
Give us the ending we deserve, Jon and Daenarys sitting the Iron Throne together with a litter of silver-haired, violet-eyed babies running around as Westeros prospers like never before, while dragons fly majestically through the air and white wolves roam the fields.
I knew GoT TV show was cooked as soon as I heard Benioff and Weiss say: "We want it wrapped up in under 10 seasons, hate the use of 'prophecy' in story telling, and didn't always want to stick to the source material in general." GRRM just sucks at this point.
I asked ChatGPT to finish it for us: "The Logical Conclusion: - Bittersweet Victory: Humanity survives the Long Night but at a great cost. Major characters, particularly Jon or Daenerys, may sacrifice themselves. - A Broken Wheel: The Iron Throne is abolished, and governance is reshaped. - Echoes of the Past: The story closes with parallels to the beginning, emphasizing the cyclical nature of history and power." You're welcome
Maybe he’s already got the book in the bag and intends to have it published posthumously so that his wife will have continued security. Plus he seems like the kind of guy who would get his rocks off knowing how much he’s pissing everyone off who’s been waiting for over a decade for the latest book? Just a thought.
Am I crazy, or the Jon kills Danny profecy is about forge the weapon to kill the White walkers? In the show he kills her to save KL. I am lost. Because I see the "hero" targaryen on him saving westeros too, but in this case, what's the weapon? lol Anyway. I don't want King Bran, I want King Jon and his real identity revealed.
Not only will he won't ever finish the series but other unfinished series by him will be adapted with other writers finishing his work. In truth, the closest ending we'll ever get from GRRM is the original ending from his abandoned scripts that he shared online. If I had to guess how the actual end will be is that the White Walkers are just not evil because George loves to subvert the hero tradition that he just seems to deeply hate for whatever reason.
Well maybe if he spent all the time he was writing episodes for the show, writing other short stories, doing video games, getting involved with prequel series, writing side projects, etc., he might have finished A Song of Ice and Fire already.
I always assumed the series would end in a sort of post-post-apocalyptic setting, sort of like the original Fallout games. The moral of the story would be "the world is dark and terrible, but as long as people are willing to push forward, there's a hope for light and warmth". It doesn't matter if it's a fictitious nuclear war, a zombie apocalypse, or the long night: they're all catastrophic disasters, not unlike the ones we suffer through (but ultimately endure) in real life.
Or it ends with a spaceship coming down and being like what the f happened to this colony and they were on a post apocalyptic planet the whole time. The End.
Brandon Sanderson is a freakin MACHINE! I can churn out quality books faster than any other author I know. Plus he did a phenomenal job finishing up The Wheel of Time for Robert Jordan. Maybe he should offer GRRM his services.
Totally agree that Sanderson's productivity is unbelievable. I think he could finish ASOIAF, but I'm not sure he is interested in the tone of the material.
GRRM, Patrick Rothfuss, and Scott Lynch have done immense damage to the writing profession. Those 3 guys collectively burned so many people that alot of customers aren't interested in investing in a new series unless it's 100% complete. Lots of talent going down the drain because their first book doesn't do numbers and a big reason for that is those 3 guys. Rothfuss more than any of them deserves to get the pants sued off of him.
I see the comment section comparing GRRM with Tolkien. But that's not the comparison he even looks it. He considers Rowling and Harry Potter to be his rival. He's better than neither Tolkien nor Rowling but, point remains.
The dragon flies off with Daenerys back to … and the lord of light brings her back to life. Because the real baddy is the psychotic one eyed raven who is now king.
@@AdorianDelmore It` s really not, you sit down cut yourself from everything and write plenty of writers do that then review/rewrite it until its good enough its not magic its just work. Plenty of writers do that and can finish their books. He had a process that worked and finished his books previusly fairly fast its not like he doesnt know how to do it.
I'm seriously shocked anybody thought he'd finish them. Why risk his entire career and legacy? He already has what every author has always dreamed about. Unlimited cash, gigantic fame, countless rewards to his name. So why would he go through the hardship of honest work ever again and risk everything he achieved? In his age? You kidding?
George goes on & on about his "gardener" writing style where the story grows organically and he simply follows were it leads. ANY gardener will tell you it takes discipline to grow a garden. And it's not just weeding, it's pulling up plants you like or moving them to new locations for the benefit of that plant and others. Without rigorous and somwtimes ruthless discipline, what you end up with is an overgrown, listless area where nothing really grows, everything just exists.
Martin has always seen himself as a peer or even superior to Tolkien when in truth he's the dollar-store version.
That "gardener" writing style is what is referred to as Discovery Writing. Eventually you need to do some sort of the outline writing process to finish it all together. That goes for being more of an outliner as eventually you need to do some discovery to bring it to the end.
My writing style is the same, as my characters often will take the story in directions I hadn't intended.
That said though, my series reached its end and try as I might, I really can't come up with anything else for it as the characters are done so the story is as well.
Martin's problem is that the story ended with the show so it's also ended in his head.
As a gardener that’s had to move several big-ass heavy-ass plants for their own good… hard agree.
Keeping up your “garden” can be tedious work.
Why are you making up shit with the Tolkien garbage. Martin has always revered Tolkien and to hear himself say It never has or never will think he's a better writer
I don't take authors seriously if they can't even finish what they started.
George RR Martin is really an Old Robert Baratheon. An Unaware Fat Person living from the past success...
And a lecherous drunk...?
Don't insult Robert Baratheon like that!
just nowhere near as funny
He can finish it if he feels like it, you people are weird
If anyone has ever read anything other than ASOIAF of Martin's, the 1000 Worlds & Wild Cards series etc... You'll know he is brilliant at creating worlds and characters, but he has absolutely NO idea how to finish a story. They all just... End. He was never going to finish ASOIAF. I figured this out back in 2019.
He already cashed in and thus feels no further need to finish the project - if GoT never happened, he likely would have finished a long time ago.
He has the money, hire a team to finish it and give 1000 feet guidance from on high, let them do the grunt work! I actually wouldn't mind at all if he did that! I completely get making your bag and wanting to retire, I can't blame anyone for that, or getting tired of the IP. At least that would show he cares about the fans and it having an ending. If he's consulting from on high I really think that would be more than fine for most people.
@thepunisherxxx6804 Hell, maybe not even a team. Just a ghost writer who needs a fat check and is okay with remaining anonymous. It may sting his ego, but it's better than being remembered as the guy that let HBO finish his series... poorly.
@@thepunisherxxx6804Nah his ego would never let someone else finish his story. He rather it go unfinished.
I ask myself sometimes. I know hindsight is 20/20, but what if D&D bought the rights to do the show, and struck an agreement to actually start shooting once all the books were done?
@@KhanMann66 Whenever it comes up in interviews, he has angrily said just as much.
Never ever put him in the same conversation as Tolkien ever again!
I agree, he is a different individual, with superior story telling ability to Tolkien.
@@SirHawkeyeWho yeah you're right George writes better characters
Yes, George is even better.
Now you can cry more.
Tolkien continued to write his vast Legendarium during WWI, as an academic and while taking care of his family.
Meanwhile, George "Fat F*ck" Martin is boohoo depressed and can't give his fans the book they've been wanting for over a decade.
Yes, Tolkien was a better writer and a better man than Martin.
I'd have more respect for Martin if he just came out and said he's lost passion for the series and it won't be finished. Unfortunately interviews and red carpet events seem to be more on his priority list than being loyal to fans who supported him.
Most nerds either don't have principles, or abandon them immediately in favor of success.
@@ephraimwinslowwhere are you getting that from? I think greed tempts everyone the same… ‘nerds’ aren’t any more susceptible.
@@samael4550
If you have to ask? You're going to ignore the answer.
(It relates to character flaws most nerds have but fervently deny. And since you're here being defensive? It's because you are also a nerd, and subject to that same denial.)
@@ephraimwinslow you have some issues my guy, it was a simple question… instead of talking about all the flaws other people have (and not at all being specific, like everyone is supposed to magically know what you mean), maybe you should gain some self awareness.
@@ephraimwinslow He has the money, hire a team to finish it and give 1000 feet guidance from on high, let them do the grunt work! I actually wouldn't mind at all if he did that! I completely get making your bag and wanting to retire, I can't blame anyone for that, or getting tired of the IP. At least that would show he cares about the fans and it having an ending. If he's consulting from on high I really think that would be more than fine for most people.
"Most nerds" dude its most PEOPLE. Again, can't blame the guy for making his bag and wanting to retire!
George R. R. Martin will always be a Temu version of J. R. R. Tolkien.
'I'm writing like a Bilboaire'
Oh shit, good one! I feel like he's an AliExpress version of J. R. R. Tolkien.
This is a hilariously accurate comment
@NickNapoli wow,, that's an insult to Temu 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
These were my thoughts too.
I'd go farther and say Martin is either a coward or not as smart as he thought he was.
The fact that he's not finished the book points to one of those.
He can't manage to tie up all the loose ends and plot holes to his satisfaction, and he doesn't want to "face the music".
The advantage of not finishing means that he never has to hear anyone say that the HBO series' ending turned out to be the superior one.
I don't think he is worried about that. I think it's that the fans guessed the ending to the books a long time ago and he got butt hurt about it. He can't come up with a better ending so he refuses to finish it.
@@sardonicspartan9343 What did they guess?
@@sardonicspartan9343 Bran not being the King is a better ending.
HBO ending is not going to be seperior no matter what he writes. Even an idiot with half the brain will write better than dumb and dumber.
@@sardonicspartan9343 That makes far more sense to me.
dude wrote too many character povs and his brain melted trying to piece everything together
Yeah, i loathe that in books, and i think i started the series a few times and gave up because of it.
Dude thought he was better than Tolkien. Well turns out he’s worse.
Same with Patrick Rothfuss. Got in over his head
That's why I lost interest
Characters going off on tangents all over the place
Having an ending with Bran as king is utterly silly.
Bran becoming a king isn't as silly as Night King.
it is only silly if you are a fan of the HbO's version of the story,
edit:
Nerdrotic/Gary is right, Bran can be the best king, Dany can still fall to Targaeryen Delulu and d&e...
i despise the HbO's adaptation from Day1... its world lacks the mysticism of the books plainn simple, it is just a dry medieval world with a lil dragon and bits of magic there thats it.
but even than i in the conclusion of the show can see glimpse of a solid ending (Dany's fall, Bran's coronation, Jon ending the bigBad cuz no book Arya sure as sht is not gonna girlboss on the NK equivalent ffs)
these all can work, but all roads lead to Jon being getting a reluctnt hero's journey of some sort and GRRM just refuses to give Jon that for some reason
@@dosifei4 it can make sense but not the way the show did it
Bran will also be king in the books
Well blood raven in brains body.
Bran is the rightful king...of the north.He is Robb heir after all.
He's acting like he's completing a unified theory of physics. It's just a fictional fantasy book. Get over yourself, wow.
Seriously. If he just copied and refined the fan theories and put them out as a new book, the books would be a triumph.
@@theskycavedinyeah after all these years hundreds of people have all but written it for him. Just have the white walkers show up, have all these factions set aside their differences to defeat the white walkers, then have the survivors agree upon a new ruler. It's not that hard.
He has the money, hire a team to finish it and give 1000 feet guidance from on high, let them do the grunt work! I actually wouldn't mind at all if he did that! I completely get making your bag and wanting to retire, I can't blame anyone for that, or getting tired of the IP. At least that would show he cares about the fans and it having an ending. If he's consulting from on high I really think that would be more than fine for most people.
It is a complicated story though, so many loose ends need to be tied up, and so much risk of disappointing fans and not tying up all said loose ends. I'm not defending him, I think he's used up his excuses, but I recognise that it is an undertaking to finish this story properly. I, like many others, personally think the heroic fantasy ending is best.
He’s in too deep. He let the story go way off then it should and now he has no way to unravel the loose ends.
George R.R. Martin definitely betrayed the trust of the fans.
And weight watchers
The race swapping was f$&king cringe
naw the problem is fans feeling entitled to someones work. yall are the definition of a toxic fanbase its usually the lgbt side that is this obsessed good to see the right leaners can be unhinged morons too
The race swapping was cringe 🖕🏻
And his publishers.
He's not going to finish it. If you think otherwise, you're huffing serious copium.
I can hope he does without actually expecting him to. Hope for the best, expect the worst
@@jordanott5464
*prepare for the worst
Copium is all people have sometimes. Though I know he will not finish.
@@jordanott5464
"Hope is irrational."
-Huey Freeman
He got all the money, maybe never liked it in the first place so doesn't want to do it anymore. Which is fine I guess?
At least Stephen King,when he had the accident, thought to himself I better finish the dark tower series for the fans before I can't.
He forced himself back to the well only to discover it dry.
And yet King is a member of Epstien's little island...so.....he's not a great person to try to hold in high esteem...
that book would have been better off not finished tbh
Post-modernists can't tell mythic stories. It's about deconstructing myths, not building them. So while Martin's series is gritty, surprising, and engaging... it doesn't speak to the mythic human spirit. Martin gave his general ending to the show runners, they butchered it (although it would never have been great), and now Martin -- having seen the ending he planned panned by so many -- is "trapped." As long as he doesn't finish the books, he doesn't have to fear destroying his series. Unfinished post-modern masterpiece or finished series that started out great and then failed?
I'm shocked! Shocked!
Actually not shocked.
damn... beat me to it!
George RR Martin is the anti-Tolkien.
I found Tolkien's books and their movie adaptations boring af and terrible, whereas I love Game of Thrones (even with the ending) and I really enjoyed the books so far. So being the anti-Tolkien is not necessarily a bad thing.
@PoolKid75 it is when you screw over your fan base
@@PoolKid75 L take
@@PoolKid75
@@PoolKid75 I wouldn't give you a downvote for a bad take... but that's an extremely bad take.
It's the ultimate subversion of fantasy that Martin intended: to promise an epic and never finish it.
So kind of like "Joker II"?
@@fyrchmyrddin1937 That one was more like spitting in fans' faces.
The delay that was promised
Funny enough when Michael Moorcock wrote Elric, he made the character the opposite of Conan but used Poul Anderson's Broken Sword, Three Hearts and Three Lions books, and the character Monsieur Zenith to create one of the most iconic series in fantasy and he finished it. The crazy part is that Moorcock still writes books even to this day and he's 6 years older then Martin!
@@fyrchmyrddin1937more like monty python and the holy grail😂
can we get jon snow a world record for the longest bleed-out in history? 13 years and counting . bleeding out at castle black...
😂😂😂😂😂 bro, it's crazy that you're right.
Wasn't he stabbed in 2015? Am I not getting something?
@Towey8 They mean the book.
DwD should be handed out at emergency rooms as first aid against massive bleeding 😂
You think Jon had it bad? Just remember that Daenerys had been shitting herself for 13 years too and she won’t stop anytime ever.
Before Season 8, there was a lot of talk about how it would end. I jokingly suggested the Night King win and everyone dies miserably ever after.
Actually, my end would have been better.
Much better.
It's not even implausible... Martin's only trick is thinking offing someone is a 'twist'.
It would have given more weight to "Winter is coming"
It would actually have made more sense and been more suspenseful.
Its the only plausible outcome based on how narcissistic and incompetent all those characters are. How could they hope to stand against an enemy that requires constant vigilance and unity to defeat. I was sad when the tv series ended the threat so quickly and most of westeros didnt see a single undead...
He and Patrick Rothfuss should team up and not finish a whole new series.
EXACTLY
Rothfuss is insufferable. We're never getting book three.
FUCKING HILARIOUS!! 🤣🤣🤣
Rothfuss got money, famous and got married and babied up -- maybe lost the peace and time he needed to actually write.
“I’ll take the baked ziti, but hold the ziti.”
One helluva way to end a legacy... George wont be remembered well.
"I cut my teeth in the trenches of the Somme! You LARP-ed your Santa Claus arse through Vietnam!" - J.R.R. Tolkien to George R.R. Martin in Epic Rap Battles of History
Welcome to Sha-iraq!
Tolkien he is not.
I think hes better i am sorry lord of the ring is so boring just my opinion you do not have to agree with it. But George does need to get a move on and release the last two books. I will say one thing about talking at least he finished the damn books.
@@callumhughes6448 Lord of the Rings is "boring" because it was written decades ago and has been explored 'to death' and spawned hundreds or thousands of universes. It's the High Fantasy Meta and Standard.
Now imagine LOTR writing...before LOTR came out.
(GRRM will never have the impact on writing that JRRT did. It's generic medieval drama with some dragons and ice zombies.- oh.. and lots and lots of gratuitous sex to get people "interested" in the first place.)
@@Livewyr7 I totally disagree with you George's characters are very real and flawed human beings. Jaime Lannister is such an interesting character because he is such a dichotomy between Good and Evil. Compare that with the character of Aragon who is good all the way through and he's only struggle revolves around weather not to take the throne Gondor. The only character in Lord of the Rings that is interesting is Boomer. Thats because he is tempted by the One Ring and acts upon it, he breaks the trust of the fellowship and tries to kidnap Frodo Baggins. However he comes to his senses and a dies trying to protect Frodo. He is a flawed and believable character. The only other flawed character is Gollum and that is because of his split personality between Golem and Smiggle. Every other character is two camps good or evil. Another thing that JRR Tolkien did wrong in my opinion was have boring designs for all of his characters. In Lord of the Rings if you look evil you are evil. In contrast in A Song of Ice an Fire the character is judged on his or hres actions. I do believe in Lord of the Rings Tyrion would have been a bad guy becsuse of his looks but he is not he is a good guy. However in Game of Thrones every body is a flawed character capable of both Good and Evil. Hence why I like A Song of Ice and Fire i think the characters more interesting in A Song of Ice and Fire, and I am invested in their journeys more.
@@callumhughes6448
You're not said anything counter to what I said. (And it seems you have a "I watched the movies" level understanding of middle earth. Imagine if I had watched Season 7 of GoT and said "The only interesting characters are Baelish and Cersei...I suspect you would find it difficult to take me seriously.)
You've broken down what makes ASIF a generic political drama set in a medieval tech world. If that's more your bag than a large scale world and timeline, then that's fine- but that does not make Middle Earth a boring world/story.
(Should you read the LOTR books as well as the other material, you'll likely be surprised as to how many grey area players/antiheroes/political creatures there are.)
@@Livewyr7 First, Aragorn in the book intends to take the throne from the beginning. The fear of becoming king is only in the movie
I just want to say how intelligent the characters in Tolkien's books are at solving problems and being aware of dangers, which you will never see in the movies (where a lot of the scenes have them being stupid characters doing stupid things).
There was never a moment when we questioned the characters' irrational actions
GRRM has not published a book in the main series for 13 years. thats almost as long as it took Rowling to write the whole of harry flipping potter.
I've read your comment and then I've read it again In Moss flippin' voice. Thank you!
Ain't that how old Snow and Robb are when the first book begins?
This is an object lesson for budding writers. Plan your book series and stick to it.
It's so true - and this is why Martin will never be remembered as one of the greats.
Michael Moorcock may have had disagreements with Tolkien but what he wrote was Elric of Melnibone with it being more than subversion of Conan and sword and sorcery in general and he didn't brag about it being a subversion, he owed Poul Anderson a great deal for influencing his works, he finished his story and continued writing books even to this day, and he's older then Martin by 6 years.
There is only one Lord of the Rings…and he does not share power.
My own theory, which I talked about briefly with Gary at a Vegas meetup, is that GRRM has "gone Hollywood", with various friends and colleagues who have the current Hollywood woke mindset. Plus in the last 10 years the sci-fi/fantasy book genre has gone very woke too. So that means there is no more room in his life for gritty stories full of violence, especially the violence against women GRRM wrote in the first 2/3 of ASOIAF. That, plus modern sensibilities about a woman (Dany) going crazy-evil and having to be killed off by a man to save the world means he can't finish the series.
He doesn't get credit for finally admitting what even the most obtuse of us realised _over a decade ago!_
There is a theory that the writing of the early books was basically carried by "editorial assistants" who did all the heavy lifting and have since gone on to other things, such that GRRM on his own is simply not up to keeping the whole saga coherent or complete. The steep drop in quality of the last two books supposedly reflects this.
Same thing is suspected of the Harry Potter series. The most popular theory is that one of the Mitford sisters wrote the first three. She popped off and they could find no one to match the style or had a clue about finishing the story.
Most people can't keep up their own quality throughout their life. A drop in quality doesn't mean someone else wrote something. It is called getting older or losing passion.
@@havingfun-u4g Which is why we take their fucking driving licenses away instead of excusing collisions.
I don't think this specifically was the case, but I do believe he peaked at The Red Wedding and he's been lost on how to finish it ever since; early books were primarily foreshadowing and building to RW, RW happened, and then most of the story after has either been the lingering aftereffects of RW or entirely new characters/plot lines that seem meandering and bloat the (already bloated) story. GRRM is basically Linguini from Ratatouille, he messed up the soup and is just desperately adding in anything nearby trying to fix it, but it's making it worse...
George borrowed a lot from Tad Williams from Memory, Sorrow and Thorn. Excellent series which deserves to be adapted well. If anything Tad was the revolutionary because he did do a darker take on Tolkien but still had a hero/ hero’s journey in Simon the main character.
My favorite series. While I bought book 3 from The Last King of Osten Ard when it came out, I held off on reading it until the last book came out read them back to back.
I was holding off on reading Game of Thrones, even though I had been gifted the novel years before I actually read it. But when the show got anounced, I figured I wanted to read it first to form my own impressions and not show runners (though I had already seen Sean Bean cast as Ned, so I did picture him as Ned in my reading) So I only have had a 14 year wait on it. :)
Tad Williams is good till it comes to the Ending... Otherland and your Books come to Mind...
"it's still a priority"
Give it up George, nobody believes you.
"I'm fat and lazy AND I've been dealing with a severe case of TDS for the past 8 years, which has been my main focus."
We know that, George. Just give the damn book to one of the writers you've already been working with.
The same thing happened with Patrick rothfuss and his series “the kingkiller chronicles.” He started getting famous and quit writing even though he promised the whole series was already written and would be out in three years. That was like 14 years ago.
I don't think you can blame the show's bad reception for too much of Martin's procrastination. He's been failing to finish the books since looooooooooooooong before the tv show ended...
I think that since the TV show has shown the ending and that he realized that most people hated it, he's not motivated to go on anymore. People who think that the show ending was not canon and just crap from the show runners are wrong. They surely have asked him what was planned and just botched it.
My ex husband is a science fiction author and he is very DISCIPLINED and writes so many thousand words a day. He has deadlines with his publishers (which moves in his words "like a glacier) from when they get the finished manuscript until it hits book stores can take years.
GRRM isn't a disciplined writer and probably has pissed away his advance for Winds of Winter by now.
Considering the name of the show, I always thought the ending should be Verys and Littlefinger playing a game of chess and recounting all of their behind-the-scenes machinations, all the strings they pulled along the way, until Littlefinger came out the winner...only to have Varys peel off his face to reveal Arya, who cuts Littlefingers throat...
damn, that would've been an awesome ending
@@anastasiab9506 Nah, that ending would be trash. The disguise will be blown in the first few minutes because Arya might have the face but she doesn’t have the same level of intelligence as Varys.
At this point, this book series is already irrelevant, right? I mean, when south park mocked got because it didn't finished, it should have been clear, that he really won't finish it ever.
Eh, If it came out today it would still be a big deal
Yeah buddy, super irrelevant, that's why grifters like nerdrotic are taking George's ironic response "they think I'll die before finishing the series, maybe I will lol" out of context and framing it like a confirmation the books won't come out, and it's getting a bunch of views, because asoiaf is irrelevant.
@@ronaldjr3092 as opposed to the Hollywood Reporter’s softball access pieces (also known as grifting) where GFFM walks on water because current HBO show. You aren’t above this; you too, “consume product, don’t question until new product comes out to consume.”
And funny enough how irony becomes foreshadowing all too easy.
Brandon Sanderson: Here. Have five books.
To think, Way of Kings was published back in 2010 and look how much he’s done since in comparison
Here’s a subversion: the Lord of Light is the real villain and not the others/white walkers. And instead of a final battle a peace treaty between humans and white walkers is made. And the end of constant war gets rid of the Lord of Light’s influence and power as he feeds off constant conflict. Jon is appointed king of the seven kingdoms, and everyone lives happy ever after. The End.
Or sth like this: it was discovered that the Starks descended from WWs, so when Jon was born from Targ and Stark blood, am ancient pact was broken. Jon had to be the hero and put the good of the realm before his well-being, and go sacrifice himself to the WWs to reform the peace pact between humans and WWs.
That at least have a shard of heroism involved in the bittersweet ending.
@@timothywong7280 exactly 👍
I'll always say that GRRM was the ghostwriter of the Game of Thrones books or he plagiarised someone.
Whoever came up with the original story, will never finish them. That person probably passed away.
Change my mind.
That's my story and I stick to it.
Well, it's certainly a more interesting story than Game of Thrones ever was.
Well he ripped off Dune and reskinned it into a European fantasy setting (rather than desert based sci-fi) as the general outline of the plot right from the start.
As for his more recent "Winds of Winter" specific writer's block, there's a theory out there (that Gary has also referenced in passing a few years ago) that points to the fact that George's previous personal/writing assistant was a skilled writer in his own right (the guy who wrote "The Expanse" series of sci fi books), and George's severe "writer's block" appears to miraculously coincide with when this guy went completely solo and stopped working for him. So the theory goes that (especially for Dance of Dragons) George was still creating the general ideas but had some-one else ghost-writing the intricate specifics that is a bit beyond him now, but now has completely stalled on Winds because that ghost-writer has quit.
I know this is sort of the opposite of what you're saying/speculating; however imo fits a little better because George is still able to pump out all the supplemental material such as the Silmarillion knock-offs that are "Fire and Blood" etc. What he seems to have the issue with (which would track with cognitive decline from old age) are all the really detailed and nuanced dialogue, allusions and implications, etc that are the hallmark of the main-line books that all the readers have come to expect.
I thought it was common knowledge that the 'War of the Roses' was basically the source for the 'Game of Thrones'. I mean, Lancasters versus Lannisters? He barely concealed it.
Part of his problem is that to be 'original' he had to diverge from the material he was stealing and so now has no idea what to do next.
That is my favorite conspiracy theory of GOT ever.
So he's the ghostwriter of his own fiction?
To ZERO people's surprise, he probably didn't finish the work...
Of course he will never finish his book series. What Dumb & Dumber wrote was exactly what he had in mind.
I dont think people minded the bullet points of how it ended more how it was executed
@@Buddy-Dale Same thing, the bullet point that Daenerys is evil and the big bad at the end betrays the entire story. Yes she's a foolish child who makes mistakes, but turning her self sacrificing character that wants to free people into the evil Austrian from WW2 is simply insulting to the genre and dripping with nihilism.
@k9px totally agree.
I remember a bunch of fake spoilers for the final season that were 10 times better than what we got. If some reddit goons can do better then who cares what GRRM thinks?
It's very different. Folks that think dumb and dumber only wrote what GRRM had in mind aren't much brighter than D&D. There's a reason the show got bad when they ran out of source material. It's not because GRRM all of a sudden got bad. It's because D&D had to make it up, and they were a lot dumber than the characters George created.
In GRRMs works, there's no winner in war, so this whole idea of good guys & bad guys, and the good guys win at the end, is completely antithetical to how GRRM writes.
The big bads weren't going to the WWs, so they got that right, but it's not the Lanisters or the Ironborn. The big bad are the Children. It's right in front of us the whole time, and no one saw it. The Children created the WW to kill men. The Children hated men since they came over to the 7 Kingdoms and have been trying to eradicate them every since. The WW just want to be left alone. The WW built the wall, not Bran the Builder, though they did so in agreement with Bran that humans stay south of the wall. That was the pact. But over time, humans AND the Children came north of the Wall. The Children continuing to attempt to manipulate the WW to eradicate humans. The WWs, tired of being manipulated and just wanting to be left alone are on a mission to kill the Children now, including their champion, the 3-eyed Raven, aka Bran. I believe in the books, the WW will travel south to chase Bran, however there's an arrangement made that stops the battle, and the WW go back north, leaving the Starks, Ironborn, Lanisters, and Dany's army to duke it out. GRRM noted that Dany was planed from the start to survive the series. Bran is likely free from the Children or he goes to live out his days in the Isle of Faces or some such. Dany and John rule the 7 kingdoms, and Arya rules Winterfel. That's my best guess.
As a side note, and I'm not giving George an out or an excuse, just an explanation...he's written WoW several times over already, and keeps scraping it and starting again. The problem is, he doesn't do outlines and wrote himself into a bad hole. He's got too many characters and plotlines and can't find a non-contrived method of bringing everyone together to provide the conclusion he had in mind. Unlike D&D, GRRM doesn't publish drivel, so he's stubbornly not publishing anything until he can figure it out. My only hope is that he lets Sanderson take over the reigns after he passes, so we can get a conclusion...even if it's not very satisfying.
the book has no point, if i want to read about never ending wars and how good people were screwed over i would read history book instead of fantasy book
winning comment
The nihilistic message only works in short one-off stories or horror stories as some kind of cautionary tale.
But this super long story? Having a nihilistic message will be waste of time and investment for the readers.
History got far better stories and leaders. He tried to copy the War of Roses and then rolled into a ditch of his post modernistic hate for any heroism and religion. All gods and people are shit, boo hoo. Great base for novel series.
Like Martin would say, fantasy is just history with some magic.
You can have nihilistic character arcs - not everyone can be a hero - but the overall theme can’t be ‘everyone and everything is meaningless.’
Given by the fact that he looks like he eats a tub of ice cream a day? That doesn’t surprise me. Lol
@viperchief-LOL! Spitting venom there like a true viper chief!🤣 2 thumbs up from me!
@ I’m just good at coming up with comebacks. Lol
Just a tub? 3 tubs at least.
@ I was being generous. Lol
Nobody ever mentions Ty Franck, his former personal assistant who left to write The Expanse series. As soon as he was gone George ground to a halt.
You seem to have forgotten that the show abandoned the books in season 5. There's a full 3 seasons of rubbish that had nothing to do with the actual story.
If you follow on from "dance of dragons" the Starks are over.
Bran is a tree... So he can't be king.
Jon is dead (didn't get resurrected in the books).
Catlyn is a fire zombie (yes, there's potentially an army of fire zombies beholden to the Lord of Light that are not in the series).
Rikon is feral.
Arya is lost.
Sansa is a prisoner, not a "girl boss" she's a trading token.
Also Brienne is smashed to bits crippled and left for dead by whomever stole the Hound's helmet from his grave after he died.
They blew up kings landing (like in the series) so most of those characters are dead.
Tyrion is off on his foreign adventures and hasn't (yet?) met Daenerys.
The big overlying story is a battle between gods that the people are caught up in. But the people are getting too distracted, by pointless things that aren't really real, to rally against the thing that will doom them all if unsolved.
NB, defeating the night king In a duel is not an option because the night king (AKA captain mcguffin) was invented by the showrunners. That's why his creation contradicted ALL the lore.
There's actually a 3 way god battle for Westeros between R'hllor (light and fire), The Other (cold and dark), and the Old Gods (life).
Technically the Drowned god and the storm god are fighting for the sea.
Whilst the many faced god and the seven don't exist because people made them up.
Also remember that in the books there are two laws:
Anyone who tries to be a hero gets killed by those they try to save.
Anyone who is out to get all they can for themselves at the expense of others will get everything they want, only to have it immediately and brutally ripped from them.
A fitting ending would actually be securing and stabilising the kingdom only to have everyone killed by the white walkers, or starve because they all burned each others farmland when they should have been preparing for winter.
If he did do the Azor Ahai prophecy then it should be Jon resurrected falling for Dany, but then having to kill her, with her permission, to quench the real Lightbringer in the blood of her heart to forge the only weapon that can defeat the other (which would have been a much better ending for the show).
The ending that would fit Martin’s trademark the most is that Ramsay won the battle of bastards, then got supplanted by Littlefinger via his teenage wife Sansa Baelish (with very detailed gratuitous scene of Baelish sexually assaulting her) before overthrowing Cersei and crown himself as the new king on the iron throne. Then the white walkers led by Euron attacked. People starved to death thanks to Baelish’s corruption and his decision to sit out the whole conflict to let Euron and Dany kill each other. Once everything is over, Baelish ends up victorious, becoming the king of what’s left of Westeros while taking the credit as a savior of humanity. Meanwhile, the real savior like Daenerys died in a battle and is now gone and forgotten by history.
Probably the most evil outcome but it’s so George RR Martin. In the times of crisis, being selfish is the correct thing to do for survival and those who tries to be heroic are morons who will die for nothing without being acknowledged for their good deeds. That’s his message.
George tied the Meereenese knot too tight. His novels are fantastic, which is a god damn shame because he's likely never going to finish them. Extremely disappointing news.
He needed Danny going full dragon the moment her 'husband' proved he can stop the Sons of the Harpy for 90 days, proving he's one. Bosh! Blood and Feathers! All the characters arrive to Mereen to a girl-queen, gets a welcome from a blood-soaked new Targaryen freeing her dragons. NOW WHAT Dorn/Tyrion/Mormont/Greyjoy. Instead trying to assist and guide her to your deeds, you end up on a real Targaryen court where immolation is an option.
To think...the BIG thing I used to be worried about was "I wonder if Martin will finish the 7th book before he passes away?"
I never imagined that the publishing of Winds of Winter would be in jeopardy.
I feel as if thousands of nerds all shouted in unison: "WE KNOW!"
We all knew he was never going to finish the book. Ever.
He doesn't just owe us an ending, he owes one to his characters as well.
Also, Daenerys wouldn't burn the city if the people love Aegon, she constantly dreams of family... her first reaction wouldn't be to burn her last family member. I doubt she would care if he was a Blackfyre either, she doesn't even know the history of her family.
Correction: He's "Fat, *rich* , and lazy".
A lot of writers produce their best work when they're desperate and hungry. It drives them to a degree they wouldn't normally drive themselves. Let's be honest: Martin hasn't been hungry in a long, long time.
To me the perfect ending would still be that Robert baratheon comes back from the dead slaps cersei in the face and destroys daenerys's dragons with laser eyes.
And throwing his Warhammer at the White Walker Kings face
Then he returns home proclaims himself the true heir of durin godgrief
"Gods, I was strong then," 💪 💪💪
-Robert Baratheon-
THE GIGA CHAD😤
@Rengokuo4o6 Bobby B
The KING
Baratheon simps are such losers
I'd totally watch that😁😁😁
News flash! Over a decade ago when GoT was starting shooting, George stated he was terrible at finishing things. He has already worked with other authors about the story. Get used to the idea the story will be finish by someone other than George.
People have had the gall to compare martin to tolkien throughout the years. Let that sink in
Glen Cook's "Black Company" books did the bittersweet ending and epic fantasy better. Personal theory, GrrM didn't write any of the books, the writing style matches Diane Gabaldon who used to be one of his close friends. Pretty sure she ghost wrote for him, then they had a falling out and her Outlander series took off. So now she writes these massive tomes for her own series and GrrM's has stagnated. Why can't GrrM finish "Game of Thrones"? He never wrote it to begin with. He's a hack.
The weird thing is that George wrote Fire and Blood, which is a massive book, recently. So he's not lazy. He must be intimidated or struggling with the plot.
That was mostly made up on world building notes and previous short stories he had already written.
His two assistants who started as early fans and made the wiki I think helped put it together
Stuff like world of ice & fire, fire blood and whatever junk is his publishers begging for anything to publish cause they’re waiting on the book too.
Cold fusion, personal jet packs, a NY Mets World Championship and either a new Gun N' Roses or System of a Down album all have the same likelyhood as the end of this series.
So many great writers were taken from the world before they could see their works through to completion. Whether that be with Frank Herbert and his Dune 7. Robert Jordan with his Wheel of Time series (yes I am aware Brandon Sanderson finished off the reminder of the books). Or Kentaro Miura's Berserk. Then there's Martin, who simply just doesn't seem to care anymore about finishing off his work. Either cause of pure laziness or just simply cause he can no longer be bothered anymore. The man has the time to write like a dozen so prequel spin-off books or write up lore and backstory for Elden Ring, but cannot finish the main series that put him on the map to begin with. Rumors go, what fans got in the dreadful finale to Game of Thrones, was actually the ending Martin intended for the books. But because it was so utterly hated, it's forced him to try and rewrite the whole ending, but cannot think of a better one so has just given up. At least that's the theory I've heard.
I believe George has painted himself into a corner in the 10th degree. All he ever wanted to be was a world-renowned writer. He achieved that late in life, but still too early to live happily ever after. If the show had started after the release of Winds (with work well underway on Spring), he could have lived out the rest of his life doing whatever he wanted, whenever he wanted it. Instead he is now in the situation where the story that determines his entire legacy turned from the most succesful TV-show in history into one of the most hated endings in history. And due to the order of release, it's now entirely up to George to find a way where that won't be his primary legacy. That's some seriously intense pleasure to put on anybody, especially an elder man who just saw his life's work and dream turn to ash the one time he actually entrusted it into the hands of others. He knows anything other than absolute perfection will be viewed as a failure that will greatly tarnish his legacy, and so he writes and rewrites in an endless cycle, hoping against all hope, to achieve flawless perfection.
Biggest problem Georgie M. has moving forward: Dragon Age Origins already told the story he should be telling, with the ending he should have (more or less) because it resolves the plot threads properly. But he won't do it.
Hunter x Hunter and Berserk fans feel your pain 🫡
Dont think those are great examples, since they never just went full hiatus mode for 10+ years, vagabond is prabobly best example in manga for what martin is doing
Miura was fighting for his life and Togashi is constantly sick. Wtf is wrong with Martin
Both series are still continuing with updates. WTH has Martin pumped out in 13 Years?
Imagine being a child and loving these books only for a tv show to come out and disappoint you but still hold hope for the book. And now your 30 and the book still hasn’t came out. That’s me
The problem wasn't that Benioff and Weiss couldn't fill in the blanks, the problem was they were no longer motivated. They treated Game of Thrones like a stepping stone to greater things, and once you feel that way, it shows in your work. The second Disney dangled a Star Wars project in front of them, continuity and story didn't matter. The show had to end, so they ended it. And in doing that, they lost in every way.
Imagine being a professional writer with a world renowned series and you can't be bothered to finish it.
The story was over when they killed the one true king Stannis.
He never had a clue on how to finish his "epic". His best guess was presented on the TV series, and was received with ridicule. So now he can't do that "ending" either, and he truly has run out of ideas.
Another series that Brandon Sanderson will finish after the original author dies.
He prabobly would, but their storytelling style doesnt match it would prabobly need to be someone like Abercrombie
cringe comment
Brandon did a pretty good job with WoT. I love the last 3 books, even if his prose isn't as good as Jordan's was, it was a satisfying conclusion.
I don't think Sanderson could do ASoIaF justice though. Not saying it's too good for him, I personally think WoT is better than ASoIaF, just that it's too far out of his style. Brandon also grew up reading WoT and I'm pretty sure it was his favorite series and he had read it several times. I've never heard that he has the same relationship with ASoIaF.
Besides, Brandon has enough on his plate these days. He's got decades worth of writing left to finish up the Cosmere. I'd rather see that finished than ASoIaF. I've already accepted that we won't get an ending to that outside of the show, and the level of disappointment the show gave me kind of stole most of my passion for the story.
The philosopher David Hume once said (1769?), “I have four reasons for not writing: I am too old, too fat, too lazy and too rich.”
I think the HBO ending was a lot closer to his own than anyone realizes…
How in the name of all that is sane can a writer who got this lucky not keep writing? It's madness.
🎵This is the book series that never ends! Yes it goes on and on, my friend! Some people started reading it, not know what it was! And they'll continue reading it forever just because, this is the book series that never ends!...🎵
so....the never ending story then? mmm we got that in the 80's spanks, good movie!
Frank Herbert mostly finished his mythology but had his son do all the side material for him. J RR Tolkien finished the mainline story novels, and Christopher Tolkien helped adapt a lot of his dad’s unfinished books and mythology. Does George have any family he can have continue his work after he dies?
Give us the ending we deserve, Jon and Daenarys sitting the Iron Throne together with a litter of silver-haired, violet-eyed babies running around as Westeros prospers like never before, while dragons fly majestically through the air and white wolves roam the fields.
Ok but who cures the homicidal insanity genetically inherent to Danny that she has displayed over and over and that WILL get worse and worse?
@@ninjatango uh, love, duh.
LOL!
@@ninjatango
based Nero Pfp
GRRM has a history of not ending his book series. This is not a shocker for anyone familiar with his other work.
I knew GoT TV show was cooked as soon as I heard Benioff and Weiss say: "We want it wrapped up in under 10 seasons, hate the use of 'prophecy' in story telling, and didn't always want to stick to the source material in general." GRRM just sucks at this point.
I asked ChatGPT to finish it for us:
"The Logical Conclusion:
- Bittersweet Victory: Humanity survives the Long Night but at a great cost. Major characters, particularly Jon or Daenerys, may sacrifice themselves.
- A Broken Wheel: The Iron Throne is abolished, and governance is reshaped.
- Echoes of the Past: The story closes with parallels to the beginning, emphasizing the cyclical nature of history and power."
You're welcome
Lightbringer ask Jon has to kill Daenerys to ineffect power up the sword to kill the night king ref in lore
Maybe he’s already got the book in the bag and intends to have it published posthumously so that his wife will have continued security. Plus he seems like the kind of guy who would get his rocks off knowing how much he’s pissing everyone off who’s been waiting for over a decade for the latest book? Just a thought.
Author Larry Correia just finished the final book of his own fantasy series. He dedicated it: "To George RR Martin. See? It's not that hard."
Am I crazy, or the Jon kills Danny profecy is about forge the weapon to kill the White walkers? In the show he kills her to save KL. I am lost. Because I see the "hero" targaryen on him saving westeros too, but in this case, what's the weapon? lol
Anyway. I don't want King Bran, I want King Jon and his real identity revealed.
Not only will he won't ever finish the series but other unfinished series by him will be adapted with other writers finishing his work. In truth, the closest ending we'll ever get from GRRM is the original ending from his abandoned scripts that he shared online. If I had to guess how the actual end will be is that the White Walkers are just not evil because George loves to subvert the hero tradition that he just seems to deeply hate for whatever reason.
George trying to outdo Philip Jose Farmer's "Riverworld" for "Longest Duration to Half-Finish a Sci-Fi Fantasy Series".
Well maybe if he spent all the time he was writing episodes for the show, writing other short stories, doing video games, getting involved with prequel series, writing side projects, etc., he might have finished A Song of Ice and Fire already.
I always assumed the series would end in a sort of post-post-apocalyptic setting, sort of like the original Fallout games. The moral of the story would be "the world is dark and terrible, but as long as people are willing to push forward, there's a hope for light and warmth". It doesn't matter if it's a fictitious nuclear war, a zombie apocalypse, or the long night: they're all catastrophic disasters, not unlike the ones we suffer through (but ultimately endure) in real life.
Or it ends with a spaceship coming down and being like what the f happened to this colony and they were on a post apocalyptic planet the whole time. The End.
Here’s another alternative: after Martin dies, the publisher hires someone else to finish the series.
Brandon Sanderson is a freakin MACHINE! I can churn out quality books faster than any other author I know.
Plus he did a phenomenal job finishing up The Wheel of Time for Robert Jordan.
Maybe he should offer GRRM his services.
Totally agree that Sanderson's productivity is unbelievable. I think he could finish ASOIAF, but I'm not sure he is interested in the tone of the material.
Yeah, you’re probably right. Sanderson was already a big fan of the WoT book series when he decided to take over the job of finishing it.
GRRM, Patrick Rothfuss, and Scott Lynch have done immense damage to the writing profession. Those 3 guys collectively burned so many people that alot of customers aren't interested in investing in a new series unless it's 100% complete. Lots of talent going down the drain because their first book doesn't do numbers and a big reason for that is those 3 guys. Rothfuss more than any of them deserves to get the pants sued off of him.
I see the comment section comparing GRRM with Tolkien. But that's not the comparison he even looks it. He considers Rowling and Harry Potter to be his rival. He's better than neither Tolkien nor Rowling but, point remains.
if you are uimplying HP is better than ASoIAF then you gotta chill out a lil
He's better than both.
@@btchiaintkidding7837 HP has an ending, you know ;)
Another thing that makes it harder is that all of the extant books were written BEFORE the great awokening.
Winter may be coming, but the same cannot be said for The Winds of Winter.
The dragon flies off with Daenerys back to … and the lord of light brings her back to life.
Because the real baddy is the psychotic one eyed raven who is now king.
JK Rowling wrote a complete 7 book series in 10 years. GRRM hasn't written a single book in 13 years. JK Rowling > GRRM
It's not easy to get inspired to write books.and sometimes you lose inspiration with creativity
Well we did get Fire and Blood, and Some Dunk and Egg.
@@AdorianDelmore It` s really not, you sit down cut yourself from everything and write plenty of writers do that then review/rewrite it until its good enough its not magic its just work. Plenty of writers do that and can finish their books. He had a process that worked and finished his books previusly fairly fast its not like he doesnt know how to do it.
@@AdorianDelmore no, not for 13 years you don't. That is quitting, not looking for inspiration.
I read his anthologies like 10 years ago. I knew he wasn't going to finish when I finished those.
he really should say to us "i want to retire"
Berserk will get finished before Martin ever finishes his books.
I'm seriously shocked anybody thought he'd finish them. Why risk his entire career and legacy? He already has what every author has always dreamed about. Unlimited cash, gigantic fame, countless rewards to his name. So why would he go through the hardship of honest work ever again and risk everything he achieved? In his age? You kidding?
Can't we just hand this off to Chap GPT and be done with him?