Vinland Saga: Was I Wrong? Who Cares About Realism Anyway?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ธ.ค. 2021
- Is there such a thing as "too anime"? For me that's a yes, although it's entirely based on personal subjective taste of course. In a previous video I talked about the TV series Vinland Saga (based on the Japanese manga series of the same name), and why I don't watch it. In hindsight I was unnecessarily harsh on it, for arguably the wrong reasons.
Particularly when it comes to the exaggerated action scenes and superhuman feats, which seem out of place in a mundane, historical Viking setting. But is it really mundane? If it's based on the old Norse sagas, well... there are stories involving magic and larger-than-life heroes. So you could argue it's true to the source material, at least to an extent.
So in this video I talk about my opinion on some nuances of realistic / historically accurate settings in fiction and give you a brief intro to the different types of Icelandic sagas.
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Outro:
"Highland Storm" by The Slanted Room Records
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In my opinion, since it's a "saga", I think that the superhuman feats are like other people saying "that guy is such a good warrior that he felled several men with a swing of his axe" and the story runs with that...
That doesn't always happen, though. It's a rare scene with an extremely exceptional character: Thorkell the tall. That MF was known IRL to rip through mail.
After last Skalla video about Vinland saga I realised that it didn't bother me at all, because it's saga. Some unnatural things can happen in saga.
Great point, дружище
Ive always though the sagas were based on real stories and events but were embelished more and more over time until they were finally written down centuries later
@@danielantony1882 it is not just Thorkell, Thorfin does that stuff as well, and later on a repeating crossbow shows up
Personally, when it comes to Vinland Saga I don't think that "historical accuracy" was the main focus the author wanted to get across, at least not in the first season of the show, Which makes it even more impressive, most of it is in the background and broad plot, and in that context of a background setting it's stupidity impressive how much the author actually tries. You can see the pins holding the cloaks, actual reasonable armor for the time, types of architecture that varie depending on the region, what type of live stock and crops, lots of little details that didn't really need to be there. They could just have had the guys in the background wear the same generic pelts, leather armor with lots of belts, eye liner and dreadlocks like many other milion-dollar projects
At the current point in the manga, the author is taking month long breaks just so he can research native American customs and language, which is a testament to how much he cares about the accuracy of the backround, even if he sacrifices some accuracy in combat
@@averyshaw2142 He got some accuracy in combat tho
Spoilers for the baltic war arc
When thorfinn is surrounded by vikings they hold some realistic stances with their weapons, they still get beaten up by a blonde midget but it was a nice detail
the same happen to shingeki no kyojin.
it's not about realism that the main plot.
it's about the author make the world somewhat REALISTIC, but the main plot is about stuff in author's mind.
it's called as "historical fantasy" or something. and it's better than some tryhard realism "historical story". like the vikings series there..
People seem to forget that you can enjoy fantasy and realism at the same time! Absolutely love your channel, btw. It's helped me get through some rough times.
@@SirHavok You need to remember that realism=\= historical accuracy, you can have a game that has perfect historical facts but the gameplay itself is not realistic and vice versa.
Well we kinda did this to ourselves. The past decade or so there's been a massive increase about learning "the science" and "realism" of fiction. As of a result people, mostly subconciously but conciously too, feel "smarter" for critiquing fiction or "knowing it's not real" which is really dumb because everyone knows fiction isn't real on some level. Our media has also evolved to cater to this with a lot being based on "science" and "realism" it snowballed to today. Don't get me wrong it can be fun to point at how silly fiction can be or learn the reality of some aspects. However, you basically "can't have fun" anymore because people will tear most fiction to shreds these days. It's super irritating cause these same people go on about how great myths are or old cartoons are and "aren't as dumb as the ones these days" when if you take a step back they're just as ridiculous. Dante's Inferno is basically a self insert fanfiction for one.
@@korinoriz Dante's inferno is specifically bad for mixing his fiction with the reality (as then perceived) of Hell, making people believe some of his added "facts" that weren't in any real source on the topic.
@@SirHavok womans fighted wars, included on the nazis side
Black ppl did not fight for nazis, but i think anyone can understand why that wouldnt happen, and black ppl did fight a lot of wars... they were a llt of times in history both hated and fighting in the same sides of the war
Also no one cared about realism when there were only white straight mans fighting wars so ._.
@@Grimm-A Surprisingly, there actually _were_ black soldiers fighting on the side of the nazis. Mostly coming from Africa, they joined a side to participate in the war and returned back home afterward.
Being veterans from the biggest war the world had ever seen made them respected members of their community, for those that survived, anyway.
Vinland Saga is definitely "anime". While it takes massive liberties with dates, people's histories, and physical capabilities, it does tell a good story full of character and themes. "Viking" is the backdrop, but the problems faced are more timeless: from the cost and horrors of war, to the motivations and philosophies of men, whether peasant, soldier, or king.
I can't recommend it for historical accuracy, but if you like your character dramas violent, it's a wild ride.
It's a shame that animes like Vinland Saga don't have realistic fighting like in other animes such as Maria the Virgin Witch. In the MTVW anime, the characters use historically authenthic weapons, armor, and even fighting styles.
While it's far from fully historically accurate, it's still better than pretty much any other big "viking" TV show I've seen, like HBO's vikings for instance
Idk why everyone has a problem with the Vikings tv show, what you said pretty much applies exactly to that as well, minus the anime part, obviously.
Vinland Saga has ONE OF THE BEST character developments ever.
@@Intranetusa Then all duels and fights end in about 3 strikes, not really engaging and dramatic for mass audiences who cannot pick up the subtleties of HEMA techniques
The matter with Vinland Saga is that the guy who chopped the ship and such is very much along the lines of a Greek or Norse 'hero'; he is an outright freak, and the _most_ extreme case of the small handful of such characters in the series (in the first season/two cours, there are approximately _three_ of these characters). That ship-cutting and boat-jumping stuff was more or less the pinnacle *among* the superhumans. More importantly, it is _treated_ as-such in-verse, with people responding in awe, disbelief, terror, and reverence, and how that freakish strength affects battle (and how a more 'normal' human might overcome it) is explored as it would be _were_ such saga-esque figures real, because everyone and everything else remains grounded.
An axe doesnt work like that nonetheless
@@thevikingsock8527 Yes. That is why it's fantasy wishfulfilment with Thorkell.
@@thevikingsock8527 And?
@@thevikingsock8527 Neither does 90% of holywood action combat. Take for instance 300 which may as well be titled 300 ways we mess up combat.
But honestly, who cares. Lots of action set pieces drop into the rule of cool and that's all the scene being talked about is. It's an establishing shot of two guys who are so massively above the rest that it's like a hot axe throw a ships mast.
@@thevikingsock8527 There is not a single book, movie, series or game where everything works like it should.
Askeladd makes Vinland Saga so great. Literally just from how a character is written and how that character impacts the story is pretty much already a reason to watch the show. Very memorable character.
He's like Vegeta. He's a terrible person who has committed countless horrible atrocities, but he's such a cool character that you can't help but love him.
My standard for "realism" in a movie/show is: it doesn't need to be realistic, it just needs to be consistent
More of this, for crying out loud
I would call the show historical fantasy. it’s kinda like the AC games, it is set in a period with some real figures but there’s some crazy stuff too. I personally loved the show and highly recommend it
Like the fact that the pope is fighting Aliens from space, and your character is in the Matrix. ;P
@@Ranstone It goes crazier then that in the most recent games, especially Odyssey XD
"Nioh" is another example
More like historical fiction than historical fantasy.
@@shazzatulanam6680 I'm splitting hairs here, but I'd think it'd actually be more historical fantasy than historical fiction. Historical fiction just means it uses historical figures or events but didn't happen, the term "fantasy" implies more supernatual elements to a story, as then the story is 'fantastical', rather than just fictitious
With regards to the ship scene, I'd note that the anime is, as one might imagine, more anime than the manga. The manga is pretty grounded as action series go, and the anime hews pretty close to it, but then the scenes which aren't drawn directly from the manga, like the opening scenes of the anime, are significantly less grounded than the content which the author actually wrote and choreographed.
Hi Max Greetings from Max
You are not wrong... But then there was Thorkel... He was also pretty broken in the manga.
It's a shame that animes like Vinland Saga don't have realistic fighting like in other animes such as Maria the Virgin Witch. In the MTVW anime, the characters use historically authenthic weapons, armor, and even fighting styles.
I remember thinking when I saw the guy cut the ship mast
"This guy must be a Einherjar."
I've only read the manga, and I heavily disagree with that. It seems like most main characters are Spartan IIs who can throw trees, run up castle walls, cut through armour like butter (though armour is just generally worthless in that universe anyway tbh), etc. It kind of ruins the gritty war/revenge story that I'm supposed to take seriously when it's mechanics are such bullshit.
I was surprised a manga and anime was made about Scandinavian life at the time. Even though it's way overboard with the powers of the characters.
It's almost a saga power scale.
It's based on the sagas. The sagas themselves have plenty of fantasy within them.
@@TocsTheWanderer quite a lot
They also got quite a few cultural things correct. Although in common Japanese fashion they strongly bork the Christian theology side of things at some points.
It also quite quickly transitions away from Scandinavian life toward raiding England.
@@darken2417 Another issue is that by 1000AD, a large chunk of Scandinavians, even viking raiders, were Christian. Yet they're acting like Cnut is an outlier or something, some of them even acting like they'd never heard of Christianity before they listened to the priest.
I watched the series I didn't mind it because there were only a handful of characters who kind of went fantastical with their abilities but they were presented as exceptions not the rule therefore seen as legendary by other characters but even these exceptional characters were as mortal as their opponents so I think against heavy odds it always equaled out the weighty unrealistic fantasy abilities with the realistic abilities of their opponents.
Yap, the super strong is indeed crazy, but is not anime i destroy a place with my fist crazy or jump into a fliying tree to fly faster. Is just super strong and no more than 4/5 and only 2 of them are really important to the plot, the others exist just to say "hey, there are others like this" and yap, they can still die in 1-10 fights or so
@@Grimm-A as someone else pointed out the show is called Vineland Saga, the characters aren't even that strong compared to some of the real sagas.
That's why I tend to value Skall's opinion on certain topics.Humble enough to accept some level of healthy criticism and having no problem in saying "hey, I might be mistaken about this" if necessary
This honestly made me appreciate you more. We all need to be able to appreciate other people's perspectives and points of view, as well as being able to critique ourselves every once in awhile.
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays from the island of Guam!
2:42 "A World War 2 setting where everybody fights with swords"
Not exactly "Everyone", but Mad Jack Churchill fought with a sword. More sword-on-sword action also did happen in the Asia/Pacific conflicts as well.
Well, spoilers...
We kinda move away from the idea of viking battles and such and move into a retrospective on pacifism and finding meaning in life as well as what it means to redeem yourself.
That and the story is now about Thorfinn buying his freedom from slavery and becoming a man and eventually voyaging to the New World to find Vinland which is quite the experience so far
Thanks for depicting that.
Does that mean he goes on to fighting/raiding Native American & Inuit villages now?
@Itachirevived its probably one of my favorite moments in fiction
@@Intranetusa no he becomes a pacifist like his father. Currently they are in a barter/trading relationship with a tribe of Native Americans. So far it's going ok but time will only tell what conflict will erupt
@@dakotarandolph4714 If it follows historical precedent, they will all die. If the author is a good writer, he will make Thorofin's pacifism the root cause of his family's slaughter.
Here's the short of it.
The anime nature of the fights does not matter. Yes it pushes realism to the brink and some of the action scenes in the anime were made more unrealistic and.... well...anime, but in the end the fights do not matter.
The true strength of the show is in it characters and story. Of transporting you to a different time period and telling you the kind of story you will still remember years later and leave you quietly shedding manly tears.
I personally loved the saga method of telling stories in the anime/ manga
It's slightly mythical but not overly so
Hey Skall, I just wanted to say that I appreciate your willingness to self examine. Self introspection is a valuable thing that is very rare to see, especially in a "public setting" such as a fairly popular youtube channel. Thank you for that. :)
"I dont know why some people still thinks im some kind of pedantic killjoy who hates fantasy?"
Thats exactly what some pedantic killjoy who hate fantasy would say
The thing I like about Vinland Saga is that although there are superhuman feats in it, there aren't supernatural feats. The abilities warriors possess in that show are not granted by ephemeral spirits, demons, or necessarily Gods, but by the will of the character, their training, skill and might. They are shorthand, in my view. When we see a man chop a ships mast and three men into discrete pieces, this is short hand for "the character is badass as all hell, and you should consider his abilities far beyond that of his peers". Yes, its a bit extra, sure, but they aren't calling attacks, and melting cities with blast waves coming off their blades. Of all the anime I saw when Vinland Saga was new, its the most down to Earth one involving swordplay. Heck, at least its not Bleach🤣
I'm not someone who likes the shows that are "too anime" typically. I can't ever get into the big animes everyone watches because I find them too goofy and tropey. BUT Vinland Saga is extremely good, and I think you should at least do the 3 episode rule and give it a chance. Though I must admit I'm probably biased because I know almost nothing about the stuff it's based on. Also only 2 characters really do that crazy anime cutting through a mast type shit (At least from what I remember)
There is more than a couple, but not too much more... it's just once a character reaches a certain level in combat in that show, then it starts to go overboard and make them more "legendary". But, I am caught up with the manga, so... yeah...
Three of them. Still quite few, though, and importantly, the world around responds to those feats as they would be in reality-as inhuman acts performed by what are basically demi-gods.
@@fenrirsilver6441 and even then, it's more a prologue thing as far as I know (currently reading the travel to Greece arc)
I 100% agree! didnt like vinland too much tho tbh... watch ghost in the shell and monster! they are probably the 2 least goofy tropey animes out there
I always go with the 4-5 episode rule because in anime episode 1 and sometimes 2 is used to get bring in more casuals.
For example episode ones often start with some random fanservice that isn't in line with the rest of the series or in the case of VInland Saga some over the top action sequences out of line with most of the series.
This is clever because it draws in a greater audience which hopefully stays for the story.
Although this tactic also scares away some serious viewers as they end up jumping to conclusions like assuming it will be riddled with fanservice. It also can damage the quality of dramas/romances if its the main female characters getting serviced this early as this is counterintuitive to getting the fans to care about them first.
I kinda understand, I thought I cared about realism untill I saw the Baki from Netflix and absolutely liked it haha
It takes a great man to admit his most sensitive follies, you surprise me with your depths of compassion, respect, and humility every time Skall.
"Too anime" is just fine argument for "I don't like this".
Also, thanks for sharing your knowledge about sagas and other Viking texts.
Cheers!
P.S. What's that stone building in the begining of the video?
If you liked Rurouni Kenshin for its redemption story, you'll definitely like Vinland Saga. Rurouni Kenshin is based on actual historical figures and events and they do absolute bullshit superhuman stuff as well but you still loved the series, so I don't see a reason why you wouldn't be able to see past Vinland Saga's fantasy like superhuman depictions and appreciate the story and characters.
same thing for the game "Nioh"
Wait what?
I love your channel skall, mostly cuz of these types of videos and your attitude towards this back and forth with your community!
I have no problem with unrealistic stuff in a Fantasy yet "Historical" setting. That WW2 with Swords thing sounds awesome same for the Roman with Guns thing.
Exactly! Romans with guns would be absolutely terrifying
Funny thing is, both of this kiiinda describe Warhammer 40K. There's at least a couple Roman themed Space Marine chapters and most Imperial Guard regiments are based on WW2/WW1 armies and often give their officers swords, which they actually use in combat.
@@Stan_Delone Perhaps, but taking into account these ideas. I think a better version of that would be a combination between Skyrim-esque Open World meets Civilization games, combined with the various Cultures mythology/magic. You progress through the game as a certain culture/group building your society as a time traveler sent into the past to do that. It still very Old World/Fantasy but you alone can have advanced weaponry, knowledge, and materials facing a Big Fantastical Enemy who may have made alliances with the various other cultures, they don't attack your society directly but seek out magical artifacts to bring the Enemy into the world and the end of the game is you and your army facing the enemy. Additionally have various game modes that are related to real world time-frames. So you could set it the early 1900s type time but set it so for whatever reason no one has guns or other weaponry of the time. Yet could also set it to be the BC and early AD time-frame yet you have guns more advanced eventually while your enemies at most use Flintlocks.
Best old setting with guns show was probably Baz Luhrman's version of Romeo and Juliette. Completely worked.
And what if, like in Wolfenstein, the Nazis actually succeed at unleashing occult forces as part of the war engine?
Honestly, there are indeed some absurd superhuman feats (you're gonna see a few things way over what you saw in that start), but I also believe the show knows how to balance things out and when to set foot back onto reality. You'll be able to realize it in the first episodes already that "even these superhumans are not really superhumans", which is kind of a weird to phrase it, but what I really mean by that is: the feats are more for entertainment purposes and those cool action moments, but despite that, the plot is able to progress just as it should in a more realistic setting, and I believe this is shown exactly when you see some of these superheroes dying, you know; because when you think about a superhuman like that, let's go a bit over the top and say Goku, per example, you don't imagine he'd ever get killed by something like arrows or be affected by wounds or something like that; and I believe this is exactly the point in where Vinland Saga sets its feet back on reality, because it's in those times that you realize that their "superhumans" are strong, indeed, but are still humans, and they didn't get there just by mere fact of being absurdly strong, they really do know how to handle themselves and had motivations to get there in the first place, and there if they were to fail or die halfway there, they would, just like any other human being.
Of course you might still not like those over-the-top moments, it's not like you have to like it, but I do think you can still have a pretty good time, and giving it another shot might be worth it.
Brother, I love your videos like this. I have no idea what show this is that you're talking about, but, I enjoy hearing you talk and I love the nature. I miss it. I can't walk anymore, so, I love seeing you in it. Enjoying it.
Thanks for everything over the years, and happy holidays to you and the ol'lady.
You guys make each other so happy, it's beautiful.
She still has that twinkle she had back in your wedding video. At least, that's what I see.✌🏼
This was a really good chat, thanks for coming back to this topic mate
Always appreciate your take on things, as a fellow bearded nerd, it's great to hear someone you hold in regard talking about things we're all passionate about.
Can't wait for your Vinland Saga review :D
What I liked in Vinland Saga was that I didn't feel like some characters are killing lesser fighters because they are magical superhumans or because others are useless. Instead I've felt like it's somewhat natural for them to behave so.
My issue with his first video was that he never even bothered to watch the show. I don't care if he likes the show or not (i never made it past episode 8 myself) but there is no possible way he could know if he likes the show without ever bothering to watch it.
He makes claims about what the show is SUPPOSED to be and then rags on the show for supposedly not living up to those assumptions. All of which he couldn't possibly know, because he never watched it.
It's the epitome of straw-maning.
yup. i don't get it. people are praising him for self examining yet he doesn't do it? still comes out as a self absorbed nerd that's still making opinions without actually knowing what he's talking about.
Honestly, I beleave you can really enjoy Vinland Saga if you put your expectations into context.
Basically, it's one of the first large historical fiction anime shows NOT focusing on Japanese history, meaning it's a form of telling a story from across half a world to an audience with a completely different cultural background and little understanding of history of such a remote region as Europe. Being a nerd in European history and loving every single thing about medieval period doesn't mean you can actually tell a lot about what happened in China and Japan in the same years - but happened it did, we are just likely too far apart culturally to understand the significance of some interclan rivalries in XIth century Japan or a dynastic struggle in China around the same period (and don't even get me started on Indonesia or Thailand).
From that point of view, the Vinland Saga does its job absolutely marvelously, taking the typical anime tropes like over-the-top action scenes, unnecessarily exaggerated emotions of characters and a bratty, obnoxious and arrogant main character so typical for "shōnen" genre of anime - only to lure in the audience, to give people the sence of familiarity with the medium and setup the key characters, but after that it does a remarkable job of showing the customs, the religious struggles, the personal dramas and international relations of the period. Of cause, some things are exaggerated in order to give them more visual representation, like Welsh suddenly looking more akin to romans then to their Anglo-Saxon neighbours, but that only helps to push further the understanding of a diverse land that is medieval England prior to the Norman conquest. Also, some things are done remarkably right, like clothing and weaponry of different Viking and Saxon factions being closer to the historical truth then, for example, in the Vikings show made for Europeans (and Americans) by Europeans.
Put in this context, the show starts making much more sence and is a lot more pleasant to watch, then expecting an actual historical representation from the get-go. On the contrary, every time the show does something remarkably right you let yourself be impressed thinking: wow, I didn't think a shōnen series with a blockbuster style epic fight scenes would do something like that, kudos to the authors!
At least that's how I've watched the series, and I loved the majority of it (the biggest downside being an edgy teenager MC, to be honest).
The authors of Vinland Saga didn't do all their research abroad it has to be said. They physically travellend around scandinavia to get a better idea how to make their story more believable - the landscape, the tools, the weapons as you mentioned, etc.
Good to hear you gaining a new perspective/understanding.
Vinland Saga is very different from typical anime. It actually surprised me in a lot of ways for someone who's somewhat an anime geek. If you don't like the first 3 episodes you probably won't like it but that's only an hour of content, you'd have to sacrifice. There's obviously exaggerated feats and unlikely scenarios but I think anyone could appreciate this show if you're into the darker part of that age.
I once saw a production of Shakespeare’s A Midsummer Night’s Dream where all were costumed as Prohibition era gangsters, and it turned out to be pretty amusing.
Loving these nature walks and chats.
Thank you for creating such a wonderfully entertaining and informative TH-cam channel, also may I wish you a very merry Christmas and I hope in the new year all your plans are met with success and happiness. All the best Michael
I would still recommend trying it out. While it has ridiculous shit in it. It is still a great story and more about the characters and political intruiges. I view it as a romanticized version of "historical" pls give it a try. The superhuman feeds don't really matter in the big picture
Not to mention the fact that the unrealistic actions are usually seen as unbelievable by everyone else in the show as well. Thorkell the tall and Thors the Troll are seen as absolute monsters by everyone else around them. These men are living legends. The kind you might see in an old viking saga. I think the unrealistic actions being seen as insane by people in the show itself makes it justified. Thors is one of a kind, and everyone else in Vinland saga knows it. I think Skall saw the insane things that Thors and Thorkell did in that beginning scene, and assumed that literally everyone in the show is like them. When in actuality they are two men who are seen as absolute monsters by all other Vikings. They’re quite literally mythical heroes in a saga.
Yeah also, it's not like there are many of them. It's pretty grounded in reality
@@lorddukealayeneclipse3317 I wouldn’t go that far. It’s more appropriate to say that it’s grounded in myth and legend. It’s a Saga after all.
Thanks for giving your prespective on it. And as someone who has Vinland Saga as their favorite manga of all time, I respect you sticking to your guns about not feeling like watching the anime still. It's not for everyone.
If the fight scenes turn you off I suggest skipping to the 2nd story arc (ch 55 of the manga). The story switches tone completely and there's much less fighting. After the war, a certain character becomes a thrall and has to adjust to his new life. It becomes a much more grounded series, more character-driven and the author puts a lot more effort into historical accuracy. It eventually transitions into more of an adventure story but to say any more would be spoiling it too much. I highly recommend checking Vinland Saga out. It's won major awards for a reason.
After hearing your thoughts, I can say, read the manga. It doesn't have a lot of the stuff that seem to bother you the most. That ship scene never happens in the manga. The battle is referenced but never shown. The anime studio added it, and as a fan of the manga, I don't like it. The manga overall is significantly less "anime" and shouldn't bother you with that stuff very much at all. The second arc is extremely low key and builds up to a battle at the end that is quite more based in realism than the prologue arc. I would definitely recommend you at least try the manga.
Yeah manga doesn't have tree logs-throwing Thorkell...oh wait it does. Doesn't have super-acrobatic spear user... scratch that it does. Ultra instinct quarrel-dodger MC? Got it. Bear Wrestler Thorkell? 3m tall human-ish monster? You know it
@@samarkand1585 Majority of that involves Thorkell, who is intentionally mythical and over the top. And I wouldn't call Thorfinn "ultra-instinct" dodging. He just has really fast reflexes that he learned to account for his smaller stature and life as a viking from childhood.
Thorkell is Thorkell, and is meant to be ridiculous and over the top. But majority of the post-Prologue stuff is nowhere as ridiculous as the feats early on. The second arc is 90% character work and farming. And the final battle is fantastic.
Then we have more character work and sailing, with interpersonal conflicts and some admittedly ahistoristical technology with Hild (even though that was made pretty clear to be historical fiction and acknowledged), and then an arc with more character conflicts and an all out viking siege. None if it is super anime. The closest you'll get is Garm, and even then, he isn't fucking Thorkell levels of insanity. He's a foil to Thorfinn.
This is still historical fiction afterall, unless you think the actual Thorfinn Karlsefni was a childhood raider and heir to the Jomsvikings leadership. I wouldn't even call most of that anime as much as mythical and in the spirit of mythologies and legendary stories of ancient and medieval peoples.
Your point is taken, but don't be so bad faith.
@@SefniAsheforr You somehow glossed over the 3m tall monster at Jomsborg. Interesting. And I'm the bad faith one
@@samarkand1585 Oops, I did gloss over that in my reading. I assumed you meant Thorkell for some reason. Yeah, that wasn't what I'd call anime tropey. I'd call that more like a mythological monster like a giant. Point taken on that one. I forgot about him, that was indeed bizarre. But it's not like he's everywhere in the story or anything.
@@SefniAsheforr The thing remains, that except that one ship combat scene, every over the top thing in the anime is in the manga as well. So I really don't get why you say the manga is "significantly more" grounded. It's literally the same minus the ship mast thing.
Fantastic video Skall!. One of the things I really admire about you is how you do reflect and release videos like this one to acknowledge when you've felt that in hindsight you were unfair in your criticism.
Thank you for going back to this topic and continuing the discussion! 👍
I will continue to champion the manga as an alternative to the anime because, as you point out, the anime carries a lot of "anime-isms" with it, and many of those aren't present in the manga, like the Axe Vs. Ship scene and the main character randomly running like Naruto. Yes, its fights are still bombastic and larger than life, but it is at least reasonably grounded by comparison.
Either way, whether you end up watching/reading it or not, thank you for talking about it and encouraging conversation on a series that I hold very close to my heart.
I really enjoyed this video for a couple reasons. #1 beautiful scenery#2 the total free flow of your thoughts. that is honestly really therapeutic and more folks should take part in.
I have been waiting for you to talk about this anine for so long. Rant away my friend
This is the second vid of Vinland
Your ability to self reflect is incredibly refreshing. It inspires me to do the same.
Love your humble humor Skallagrim. Great video :)
We dont always know why we like or dislike something. When we assume we _must_ know, we default to retroactively rationalizating our conclusion. In other words, if you dont know the real reason why you think or feel a certain way but you just _have to_ present one, you will simply make one up. Taste doesnt always need to be explained, or even explain-able.
They were clearly cut in half by a very pointy shock wave from the axe moving so fast...
Pointy shock waves.
Totally a thing.
Thank you for your videos. Always amazed on how much you know.
Skall, I've always been ok with your more grinchy side of things, but I do think that it's INCREDIBLY awesome that your willing to look at yourself, reconsider positions and admit your realities.
Much respect.
I really want to see your reaction to the trailer for the movie The Northman. It's from the same director was The VVitch. It's based on the story of Amleth, which is the direct inspiration for Hamlet, and the director is well known for working with historians who specialize in certain periods of time so make sure certain details, like clothes, culture, weapons, etc. are accurate.
really respect you considering other's opinions and going so far as to make a video showing the short comings of your own opinions.
Gotta say, I miss hiking! Also, I don't mind over the top "anime esq" magic n the like so long as it's appropriately set up by the director/author.
Btw, that's a nice spot you found there Skall. Very nice :)
We should have a Roast Skall Competition. BTW, nice video.
Aw I especially love the Point Pleasant Park videos. Makes me miss Hali.
I think you are pretty reasonable and well articulated in your arguments and assumptions. It's very fair and balanced the standard ways you deal with things you analyse. ;)
1:06 may i ask, what that interessting looking building behind you is? Also, i kinda like the idea of a movie, styling 2nd world war into swords-and-armour-adventure with some steampunk elements maybe? ^^ - i cant help but think of some battle scenes from sucker punch. Thx alot for another year of great content and shennanigans :) happy holidays *edit; canadian landscapes
I completely understand that point of view! I faced the same kind of comments when I was reviewing the weapons in the Viking game Valheim... Oh, yeah, one of those videos featured you anyway. Almost forgot about that :D
Thanks again!
Anyway the issue with Vikings in particular is that pop culture has already painted a wildly different image than what's historically accurate and it's far too late to fix that, so we can only inform the people who are interested in the topic - and that might come across as nitpicky and boring to everyone else I guess.
Great vid man. Comment for the algorithm.
Tbh I don't know how Vinland Saga is "too anime for you" when it's one of the most "not like most anime" anime I've ever seen.
It's nice to hear the "bearded man" rambling while watching the scenery. Would be great if you do it more often, I'd say... :D
3:26 the squirrels are not a distraction, it's content.
I like that!
You're educating people on the differences between fantasy and realism. You are also doing it in a humorous way. This is good. We can enjoy fantasy yet criticize and learn from it through sceptical deconstruction.
A good listen 🤟 I do admit though you walking through nature while you're talking made the video even more awesome
"A World War 2 setting where everybody fights with swords"
…that kinda sounds like my D&D setting…
"ancient India but there's a bunch of smurfs running around"
…that REALLY sounds like my D&D setting…
And Churchill whet his blade. And with it he smote the fürher passingly sore. And the blade cleaved through stalhelm and maille.
I have a similar barrier to accepting the premise, the physics of most anime. The two that I've found most charming were Samurai Champloo and One Punch. They make no effort to sell it as reasonable. Both are having fun, saying "This is a party, you're in, or you're out".
I don't know about Samourai Champloo, but One punch man is, in a way, parodic, so it's kinda the point.
But I understand what you're saying as it is what kept me away from it for a long time, and for the moment I have only watched like 3 or 4 episodes
Tbf the physics of Vinland are intentionally fucky, it's roughly based on sagas of legendary figures whose feats have been exaggerated over and over again
Who the hell cares about physics in a fantasy story...
@@Andy-yx2rw it depends of the fantasy story. Some with a very serious tone use physics and realism to anchor the movie or serie in a very intense universe (Castlevania, The Dragon Prince, Invincible, The Boys). Other ignores physics because they allow themselves to be more goofy like Avatar (in a way, it can be really serious, but in those moments they tend to respect physics) or to use exaggerated elements to reinforce some aspects of them (like Vinland saga).
Just because it is Fantasy doesn't mean you can choose to say fuck to physics. You can use both elements because it is Fantasy.
But I mean, come on the heart of today fantasy is The Lord of the Rings. Taking place in a world that seems very, very real because they respect physics.
Fantasy allows you make a choice about the rules of physics, not to say I don't care about it because it is Fantasy.
Excellent points, beautiful scenery.....do more of these
merry christmas skall, is it still green in ontario? wtf... its snowy and cold here out west.
If you're into fantastic history, you might want to check out Mythic Europe, the setting of the Ars Magica pen and paper RPG. It's pretty solidly both historic and fantastic, and pretty well fleshed out by now.
The Vinland Saga manga (with the chapters that will be released in the second season) is soo good. Such a great emotional ride, and a powerful twist. I'm not saying this to change your opinion or anything. Just praising the things that are great about it.
What I found great from the vineland saga manga was the fact that the author of the series give his perspective from a Japanese person looking into and learning about the norse people from the viking age. He talked about the pros and cons of the society at the time and aspects of the culture.
You sir are king nerd and knyght errant is professor nerd. I love your channel and the history and facts you present. Can you please do something on buhurt armor and functional difference between it and original armor. You have earned a new sub. Oh by the way, I think m1 global is changing the view that hema is nerdy is changing.
Sometimes a discussion with oneself helps to understand and draw interesting conclusions. Which will give the ground for something new. The magnificent landscapes among other things!
Is that what the East Coast looks like at Christmas these days? I was born in NB in 87' and this looks better than deer hunting season used to in October once upon a time. Either way, I love seeing people enjoy the outdoors the way it aught to be enjoyed. I am currently living in northern BC and at Dec 23rd we are buried in 2 feet of snow. Love your videos Skal...
This is why I love ya Skallgrim, you willing to look at your own content for possible problems and bias. I agree that Vinland saga takes ridiculous liberties with characters and events, but it is in order to tell a great story with enjoyable characters. Although, not everything is for anyone, and opinions should be respected as long as they are thought trough. Looking forward to future content.
personally i hope that they can come out with season 2 because thats when the story (of the manga) really sets in with what the story is about and the deeper themes show up
Nice shots of the park, there. :-)
Skallagrim, at ~4:00 when you talk about internal consistency. There is a word for this, called verisimilitude.
I think it's a good video overall tbh; you lay out some thoughts you had on the matter, without being apologetic about it. Sometimes, shows/books/whatever it may be? Just doesn't jive with one's likes. And sometimes there's no specific reason for it.
In Drifters anime Katana still cuts through armour and historical characters with superpowers BUT in the show the references they make about the historical characters' history, they do a pretty good Job. Also the warfare strategy they show is very grounded. How to kill a cavalry, how use muskets.
Interestingly, this is the first time I've ever heard of that detail in Volsunga saga concerning how Sigurd gained his wisdom from the dragon; when you said it, the first thing that came to my mind was, "oh that was kinda similar to how Fionn mac Cumhaill gained his wisdom", by putting his thumb in his mouth after a drop of burning fat dropped onto it while they were cooking something (salmon of knowledge for Fionn, Fafnir's heart for Sigurd).
I think that we tend to view historical fictions as non-fiction stories way too often; It's a historical "fiction" after all.
Right, it's Vinland SAGA. The Sagas are full of unrealistic things. And while realism is important, it shouldn't be at the cost of creativity--I like "realistic" fantasy. Most of Vinland Saga (not the 2 second anime-only filler clip) has pretty realistic super powers, in how characters react to them and how they make use of them strategically/tactically.
Oh, and Merry Christmas to all.
I mean, berserkers were always portrayed as having completely impenetrable skin. Not as hardy, no, as literally invincible except under certain circumstances. If I read in a saga that a berserker hewed a longship in half, or even into splinters, it wouldn't feel too out of place to me.
@@NieroshaiTheSable Right. Vinland Saga has taken that style, but translated it into a more gritty and down to Earth setting. They've done a pretty excellent job of it overall. If they had no superhuman elements, it'd be pretty disappointing for a Saga-themed story.
Happy New Year, by the way.
I'm pretty sure you accidentally caught a glimpse of Nessie toward the end when you were panning across that shoreline.
Fair points. I think it is interesting and entertaining to get a practical evaluation on fantasy stuff like this, and don't really see how that detracts from being able to enjoy the source material for what it is. Vinland Saga kind of falls in an odd place since it is clearly based on history and appears to try to recreate some things faithfully, but then goes full shonen anime mode for the fights, but even then only for specific characters. It would make a little more sense if there was some explanation of why the superpowered characters are special - theoretically, most of the warriors depicted in the show are trained soldiers, and unless there is some kind of supernatural explanation, it doesn't make much sense why some specific people (i.e. Thors, Thorkell) are so clearly superhuman when their abilities shouldn't be that much different from the trained warriors around them. They go out of their way to explain Bjorn being strong by showing him using berserker mushrooms to go into a battle fury, so then why not provide a similar explanation for why the other "OP" characters are strong? There are definitely some gaps in internal consistency, which is a bit of a shame when there are plenty of pure fantasy battle anime that have better organized and developed power systems.
Very satisfying hiking video 😌
Anyways, you should give the show a chance, "vikings but anime" but is still good.
You are my favorite bearded dork, and one of the few opinions I value on these types of subjects. 😉
The smurfs in ancient India was a historical realistic fact tho'.
Well, Either way I am waiting your reaction to the second season.
Thank You.
This is my favourite type of video ( :
'World War Two with swords' is pretty close to Captain America. He's fighting World War Two with a shield.
If you go in expecting an Islendingasaga, you'll be disappointed. If you go in expecting a fornaldarsaga, you'll be amazed at the author's attention to detail, and his clear appreciation for the history and culture of the time period.
I don't usually read manga, but my interest in the Viking Era brought me to it before there was an anime, and I was glued to the page for almost a hundred chapters. If you haven't gone back to the show yet, try reading the original. The animation in the show isn't the greatest quality, but the artwork of the manga is top-notch - by far the best illustrated material about the Viking Age.
9:50 The shockwave did it! The wind was so moved by the sword, it became an extension of it's blade!
The consistently correct pronunciation of the Norse and Germanic words pleases me greatly.
But I agree with what you said at the end. I prefer straight up fantasy or legends over "historical fiction" as it uses (and sometimes even claims) historical facts but changes and warps them to nonsensical and sometimes even potentially offensive degrees. However, I will say that Vinland Saga is a different case, as you acknowledged in the video. Another thing that speaks in favour of Vinland Saga is that, despite the over-the-top feats, it conveys a good message, which shines through the sometimes absurd feats. It's a show that offers more than just crude violence and superhuman stunts. Thouh if it is not for you because of aforementioned reasons, then that is fine.
You should definitely watch it *especially* with Season 2 coming out so soon… the story and themes would 💯% to your liking-I’d bet *so much* money on it.
(watch in Eng Sub bc of how stellar the voice acting it)
vinland saga is entertainment, not documentary. Needless to say, everyone knows.
I think the main problem with that battle with superhuman feats is, from my understanding based entirely on comments from the previous video, that it's not representative for the rest of the anime. What I mean is that if this is your introduction to the anime, you're going to expect more of the same. I'm guessing that's not what Skall wants or expects from an anime about "Vikings", hence why it doesn't impress him that much.
So it's not so much about historical accuracy as it is about expectations of everything that comes after the early scenes and how that matches with what you want out of it. And my impression is that you can't judge the anime based on the initial impression, which is a problem if you don't have more to go on, or if what you see just turns you off from watching more.