Thanks. I also use lutes for original contemporary music as well, infact that is the main point of the channel, here is an example: th-cam.com/video/hNeOu00VlxA/w-d-xo.html
Never knew I was looking for this music untill I listened to it, yes... there it is, what, without knowing it, I have been looking for for many years, and it came to me as this little present, beautifuly played and, needless to say, superbly composed. Thanks once again.
This is the middle of 3 parts to this piece - you can also hear the Allegro which follows this on the channel. That is probably the most difficult piece of music for baroque lute, which is why there are so few recordings of it on this instrument.
This is so beautiful. And thank you for the interesting background about this piece, and the challenges you had to work though to end up with such a great transcription. Very impressive!
Thanks, this piece is rarely played on the lute because it is so challenging, for a lesser piece the effort wouldn't have been worth it but this was something I used to listen to years ago and never got around to doing properly. I also recorded the allegro that comes after this. Do you play the lute?
Thanks, I also recorded the Allegro that comes after this, probably the most difficult piece there is for this instrument: th-cam.com/video/WCwzWgjUHh8/w-d-xo.html
Beautiful. It's such a difficult instrument to play because it's so delicate and this fugue, in my opinion, is easier to play on the classical guitar. Great performance!
I've never played it on the guitar but I can confirm it is a beast on the baroque lute, as is the Allegro (also on this channel). It is very rarely played live in concerts on the lute by anyone because it is so difficult. I very rarely do solo concerts and not sure I would dare!
Lovely! You are very talented and skilled. I can only imagine that playing the baroque lute is not easy at all. I've spotted 8 out of 10 changes. 😊 You've got a new subscriber. 😉
Brilliant thank you! The last 2 were pretty subtle, so 8 is pretty good. I think next time I would film it with a more interesting background rather than put the spot the difference, but anyway you have to try new things out as you know...
Thanks, it's tricky with the octave strings as it disguises the pitch of the bassline. In Weiss etc. the bassline is very rarely melodic. It was just about possible to include all of the voices in Bach's original, which can't be done on the guitar because of the more restricted range.
Thanks, this piece is a big challenge, I also have the Allegro that follows this on my channel if you haven't seen that. Have you played this on the guitar?
@@Quatrapuntal Yes, I've played pretty much all of the Bach I can find on the guitar, and even adapted a lot of his music that previously didn't seem to have been touched, including all of the Well-Tempered Clavier. I'm a pretty messy player though.
It has a very particular technique, but every instrument has things about it that are difficult either technically or in the music played on it. The piano is much easier to play straight away, but when you get into it the music for it is often far more complicated than anything you could play on a lute.
Thank you, I also recorded the Allegro that goes after this fugue in another video. Still a bit of a way off 10,000 unfortunately. I like the cat profile, did you spot mine in this video?
I think that this is the way this fugue should sound. Way better then on a a 6 string guitar. The original voices -as I assume-, clarity of the 4 lines, trasparant texture, counterpoint, natural depth and spaces between the notes makes listening to this to a wonderful experience. Where did you find the original manuscript? Is it somewhere for sale?
Thank you, if it was written for a lute rather than lute-harpsichord which is unclear, it was for this type of lute so understandable that it would sound more natural. The guitar versions are obviously arrangements from some time later, it simply isn't possibly to replicate something requiring 13 courses and a completely different tuning on to 6 strings. It's even more the case with Weiss arranged for 6 string guitar as it was so idiomatically written for the 13 course lute. Copies of the manuscript are easily available online, the actual autograph manuscript was for sale a few years ago, I don't know where it ended up: www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-6012445
It certainly simplifies the fingerings and reduces or eliminates some of the heroic stretches and extensions that are required in the Dmaj guitar transcription. Undoubtedly this reduction in tension would allow for better and more natural performances.
Thanks Rob, it's not easy on any kind of lute! I would say this and the allegro (also on the channel) are the most technically difficult pieces for the D minor lute. The string length I believe is 71.5cm, it's a copy of the 1744 Schelle. Not a great instrument, but it's the only one I have!
@@Quatrapuntal Thanks, Chris. You play them well, but I have to say I don’t think Bach’s intention was for them to be played on the lute. I’m not sure of the timeline for when he met Weiss and when he wrote his so-called lute pieces, but I think he probably imitated a lute style, without imagining anyone would be mad enough 😂 to attempt them on a lute. He didn’t think of you, Chris, but he should have! 😎
Yes I agree, and it's discussed in the video description in detail about the issues with this piece. It was very likely composed on the lautenwerk, whether it was ever intended to be played on an actual lute is debatable but it doesn't fit on it very well. Some parts are technically impossible, even the original key is particularly unsuited to the d minor lute as you know, I played it in F.
This is a very convincing performance, satisfying in every respect. Bach was very fond of the key of Eb--one has only to think of the mighty Prelude and Fugue for organ, BWV 552 the so-called "Saint Anne" that frame Bach's Clavierübung III. But if Bach really did intend BWV 998 for the lute, it's not impossible that F was indeed the original key; and that the Eb version was a transposition for a Lautenwerk pitched a tone higher. Of course, that is all speculation, which I wouldn't dare defend if someone wants to tell me I'm nuts. Bach and his organbuilder friend Hildebrandt weren't the first to try "to imitate the sound of the lute but without all of the idiosyncrasies and technical issues of the actual lute." Others before them had given it up as a bad business. If the Lautenwerk solved some of the lute's difficulties, it grievously multiplied the lute's tuning problems. We all know Mattheson's jibe about the 80-year-old lutenist who had spent 60 of those years tuning his instrument--which probably had a couple of dozen strings like the lute you're using here. Now double that number for the Lautenwerk, with half of them thin, short strings, as delicate as any chanterelle, and just as inclined to slip their pitch, and worse, break. Out of the frying pan, into the fire!
There is the idea that different keys had different meanings/affekts, but then again Bach himself freely transposed to different keys to suit other instruments, including the lute works themselves as BWV995 was for the cello in a different key. So proving that keys were not so sacrosanct, I think it is shooting yourself in the foot trying to play this already extremely difficult piece in a key very unsuited to the instrument. As is trying to play every bass note at the pitch notated in the keyboard version which is so totally unlike any other music written for this instrument. I doubt it was originally in F, I think he wrote it at the lautenwerk either just for that instrument not considering what keys would work on the real lute, or leaving any lutenist who wanted to play it to adapt it as necessary, as I have done. This think about the lautenwerk imitating the lute closely is just nonsense when you hear it, it can't do dynamics, and one of the key aspects of the lute sound is extensive slurring which is impossible on the lautenwerk so sounds pretty far off. I also recorded the Allegro, by the way: th-cam.com/video/WCwzWgjUHh8/w-d-xo.html
Gracias! I am using standard D minor baroque lute tuning. Remember though that I am playing in F major, not D major like on the guitar. The pitch is at A=415 (baroque pitch) so sounds a semitone (half step) lower. F major is a nice key in this tuning so you can use a lot of open strings to get the 'campanella' effect.
I'm afraid not, other than what is on this video. I have dabbled in Spotify but you have to pay quite a bit to get a track on there and have to wait weeks, and I'm not convinced that it's that successful for music like this. I have recorded the Allegro that comes after this fugue: th-cam.com/video/WCwzWgjUHh8/w-d-xo.html And also a new video using the much larger theorbo: th-cam.com/video/qVk8VS-Ad2c/w-d-xo.html
I love your German Baroque 13 course lute and am very interested where I can get one like yours. Yours has an exceptional tone that perfectly compliments Bach’s timeless music. Who is your luthier? Thank you!
To be honest I don't think this instrument is great, the tone is a little dull and it doesn't 'speak' so easily when you play it harder like other lutes I have. The tone is a combination of many factors, type of strings, RH position, playing technique, acoustics/recording equipment, shape of the body, woods used etc. I would say that there are better instruments available now from plenty of makers!
@@Quatrapuntal Oh wow, thank you for the insight! In that case, can you recommend three luthiers you know will be great? They probably have waiting lists so I’d like to feel confident in the one I order will be incredible. Or do you recommend getting one that’s second hand and how can one be sure it has a beautiful sound? Thank you again for your help!
@@Quatrapuntal to be honest, I really don’t know the price of them. I have a feeling they are expensive, so I won’t be too surprised unless I’m WAY off base. What is the range they are going for? I live in San Francisco, California.
@@AndersDroid-kw3fq if you have never played a lute before (or are coming from the guitar) it's better to start of with a renaissance lute. They are more similar to a guitar - the baroque lute is a very different beast - and the technique is less demanding. They are also cheaper. I can only comment on makers in the UK, there is a Lute Society of America who have a Facebook group - I recommend you join that and ask about makers or second hand instruments there, as they will know about luthiers over there. Good luck!
What transcription are you using? I’m a guitarist and have such a hard time finding my way around on my lute guitar- it’s a guitar by Michael Thames with 13 strings and tunes as a baroque lute but with a guitar body. I wish I could learn to look at the keyboard as I see a regular guitar keyboard (I was a professional jazz guitarist at one time and play some classical as well).
Hi I did my own version of it years ago, then revisited and revised it this year. It's impossible to play exactly as Bach wrote on lute or guitar, I have never played it on the guitar so I can't really comment on that. On the lute, the bassline in Weiss and other things composed by lutenists is almost always on the open bass strings. This is not the case with Bach, as it was probably intended for the lautenwerk (lute-harpsichord) rather than actual lute. It fits very badly on the d-minor tuning if you play the bassnotes all as written and feels very unidiomatic and awkward. This is why it so rarely played on the lute, even less on the correct German lute. Many also struggle with the original key of Eb major which I have never understood - Bach thought nothing of transposing pieces into more suitable keys. Eb major fits very badly on an instrument tuned in d minor. My version is in F, the upper parts are all as written by Bach but I put the bassline on the low strings as much as possible to make it sound and feel more like Weiss. It is still very difficult however!
I looked at the video of the 13 string guitar you sent. It's a nice sound, but I much prefer the lute sorry! You don't have the octave basses so all of the bassline sounds very low in pitch and rings on a bit too much. The bass strings on the lute are made of a special material that doesn't sustain as long as normal wound strings and the gut octave strings don't either. You might be able to use those strings on this guitar I don't know. Have you heard of the liuto forte? It is a lute that is designed for guitarists to play. I think they have fixed frets, often single strings, but can be played with nails which is the main issue with playing both lute and guitar. Or the theorbo can be played with fingernails if you wanted to try a historical lute but still be able to play the guitar.
Quatrapuntal very interesting. Yes it’s been a challenge for sure. Agree the bass strings ring perhaps too much. Messing with instruments and strings just isn’t my thing. I just move on! Lazy. Believe it or not I’ve also got a Lautenwerk! Made by Kenneth Hill- brother of harpsichordist Robert Hill. A lot easier to play these lite pieces on keyboard but the funny thing is they don’t fit well on keyboard either. Anyway your performance is great. I’ve always loved this fugue and suite in general.
The strings I use in the bass are by Kürschner, they are I think nylon core and copper wound. They ring on less than the normal silver guitar strings, and sound even better when worn in. You can also get copper wound nylgut strings which are similar. The lautenwerk is a very rare instrument to own! It's an interesting sound on its own but this story of Bach fooling Weiss that he was playing the lute just isn't credible, the sound is quite different. Slurs are a fundamental part of baroque lute technique and the lautenwerk can't do that, it plucks every note which is a different sound. I wonder what happened to it after Bach, there seems no mention of the lautenwerk in the classical period. I imagine it's quite a pain to keep it in tune
It was recorded at 48kHz 24bit, at 1080p on TH-cam should be pretty good, although they compress a bit. I have enough material for an album, just looking for the right record company to release it, hopefully it will be later this year.
I need a break from playing very difficult pieces to be honest! I hoped they would get more views - maybe if this reaches 10,000 views I will record the prelude.
I studied years ago mainly with William Carter, but I was also lucky enough to have a few lessons with Nigel North, who I have always considered to be the greatest modern lutenist at least for baroque lute
Yes true, but if I had to choose one I would definitely go for North. For me his playing is cleaner than Barto's and I prefer his tone. But both are great players to be sure.
2 for the price of 1! I thought that as it's a pretty long piece, people might be getting bored of looking at a plain background part way through, so I added some extra interest...
The 1744 Schelle lute by Barber and Harris looks very beautiful but its not so well balanced cause the bass is too strong and the treble doesn´t sing. Do you guess that it´s typical for all the Schelle copies or due to the rosewood body? Would you rather go for a Widhalm or a Hoffmann model and preferably maple body for a more balanced sound?
To be honest this isn't a great instrument, it's just the only one I have and I can't justify the high cost of another! The neck is too thick and overall it doesn't resonate as much as my other instruments. My Schelle theorbo is a lot more resonant, but that was a different maker and maple back. I don't know if that is due to the barring or what. I don't think that the bass is too strong but yes the tone of the treble is a little dull. The best solution is probably the ones that have 3 staggered pegboxes so that the basses get progressively longer, I would have one with a slightly bigger body if possible to stand a better chance when played with other instruments.
@@Quatrapuntal Thanks for your response! I guess it is due to the rosewood back and the construction of the Schelle model to get penetrating basses. That makes the treble somehow dull. It was build by two of the most recommended luthiers in the world, so I don´t think it is poorly constructed. It is an art of craftsmanship like all Barber and Harris-instruments and you easily get a lot of money if you want to sell it. For you a bass rider model with maple bowl or a Martin Hoffmann swan neck would suit better.
I don't know about most recommended luthiers, the instruments I have by other makers definitely play better and resonate more. The instruments are nice to look at and are constructed closely to the originals, but neither of them played the lute at all so there is less consideration of playability or how it speaks. I used to borrow my teacher's 13-course for concerts as it just sounded and played better, I don't think all of that is down to the choice of wood. I would always want a swan neck over bass rider.
@@QuatrapuntalI also allways dreamed of a swan neck lute. When I listened to Nigel Norths "Bach on the lute" recordings I was blown away by his Widhalm swan neck build by Thomas Neitzert. For me it has the ideal lute timbre. You can find videos on youtube where Mikael Sødergaard Christensen plays a similar Neitzert-lute. The sound is simply outstanding. Currently, Thomas Neitzert owns a retailer workshop for fine instruments in London.
Aside from changes in octave register, or using octaves in the bass contrary to original, the only change I noticed was, occasionally, like at 1:29, whereas Bach has parallel 3rds (or 10ths) in the bottom parts, you only have to bottom note. I notice another guitarist did this in his version of Bb partita--ommitted the parallel 3rds. Other than that, I did not detect changes. What are they? Also, very interesting discussion about the piece, which I've played for many years on keyboard. Man---the Allegro movement is just so idiomatic to guitar, makes me wonder.. he may have been writing idiomatically for lute in that movement.
The differences were in the video, as it's a pretty long piece I put a game of 'spot the difference' to make the video more interesting! Various things change in the background and some very subtle. I worked from the original keyboard score and I think just about managed to include all the voices which is impossible on the guitar. Some maybe less clear because of all the open strings ringing on, it is a very resonant instrument. The baroque lute always has octave stringing in the bass, this is the German type that Bach knew and wrote for so he certainly would have expected that if it was to be played on the lute. It isn't notated in octaves for simplicity, like in the lute part of the St. John Passion. But I think it is much more likely this was intended for the lautenwerk, it is extremely difficult on the lute and some parts technically impossible. I have a video of the allegro as well, it can be played on the guitar of course but it fits badly (and impossible in the original key) and is very difficult to play. It sounds idiomatic played by someone who has mastered the technical problems, but it isn't at all from a playing point of view, on the lute these pieces are much harder and less idiomatic that contemporaries like Weiss. The bassline is considerably more busy which presents different problems on the lute as they are played mostly on open bass strings by the thumb.
very well played (although I usually prefer it a tiny bit faster) and a very nice transport to F. Actually with baroque lutes string length obviously not able to reach f' (a = 415Hz) in some cases, the first course will "sound" as Eb to a modern ear anyway. the Thomas Edlinger lute (Leipzig No.497) has 77.5cm as main string length, therefore obviously requiring to be tuned AT LEAST one full tone lower... (c minor)
The 13-course lute is so resonant with all the open strings that you can't hear the intricate counterpoint when played too fast, as well it is already difficult enough! I have also recorded the Allegro by the way on this channel, which is even harder. The pitch was far from standardised at A=415 in the 18th century, Dresden for example where Weiss worked for many years was A=392, I believe much French music was conceived at this pitch as well. There is an Edlinger gallichon with a very long scale length, I wonder if he was working to a lower pitch. There are also large lutes that were converted in Germany to use as theorbos, which then had no high F so the top string is D. There are 2 videos on my channel with a German theorbo, copied after the Schelle theorbo of 1728.
I know that theorbo! Great series of videos, by the way: slowly watching them all (I'm an Italian lutenist, MA in lute at the Conservatorio of Pavia), nice to virtually meet you!
Ugualmente, parlo un po' di italiano perché mia moglie è italiana, più spesso in napoletano però! Ho anche suonato in alcune stagioni d'opera in Toscana anni fa. Suoni più liuto rinascimentale o barocco?
@@Quatrapuntal più barocco, sia francese (11 cori) che tedesco (13), ma negli ultimi mesi sto suonando di nuovo il 6 cori, in particolare Francesco da Milano e Jean-Paul Paladin :-)
L'ultima volta che ho avuto un liuto rinascimentale è stato nel 1995! Ho la mandora però che è un po' simile. Non ho mai voluto molti strumenti diversi, non puoi dedicare abbastanza tempo a diventare bravo con ognuno di essi.
"How many ... " No idea, care not. This initially might sound rude, or any other negative way, but I mean something totally different: "No idea" I am not focusing on these. "Care not" Differences to me mattered never, as the whole is to be heard as one. Not as notes. If is sounds well, all is good. If it does not, I will not return to the video where things went up the wall for me. Quite oddly, if it fits well, like here, I do not even notice these oddities, or "anomalies". If it fits, it just does that, fit, to me. ;)
The differences are in the background, not the music! As it's quite a long piece and the backdrop behind me is quite plain, I added a little game of 'spot the difference'. There are 10 things that change visually in the video, some quite obvious but some more subtle.
No, this a swan neck German baroque lute. They are sometimes mistakenly referred to as theorbos, but the proper theorbo is considerably bigger with a long neck extension like this: th-cam.com/video/qVk8VS-Ad2c/w-d-xo.html
If I have to have a straightforward approach to this piece, I much prefer Eugen Dombois's version of it. The voicing clarity is great here, as is the technique, but, the phrasing never breathes and, if there is a soul connection between the player and this music it is not shared here.
You are entitled to your opinion of course and to prefer a certain interpretation to another. However I am struggling to understand your point! I was not aware of the version you mentioned, I listened to it and firstly this is played on an archlute, an Italian lute which is not the instrument that Bach knew and wrote for (it is also easier to play I believe on the archlute). Therefore it will have a different tone, but the instrument I am using is the German type most appropriate to Bach. Secondly I don't want to criticise how other people play, that version is well played, but not how I would approach it, for example with all the suspensions and resolutions in this fugue. As to "the phrasing never breathes" I don't understand what that means. If you are referring to the lack of tempo altering rubato, that is absolutely deliberate as it explains in the description. 18th century German music was not played with this type of rubato which is anachronistic and belongs to the mid-19th century onwards. The key 18th century sources confirm this and I personally find it distasteful to add romantic era rubato to baroque music as it is not how it was conceived or played. But people can argue ad infinitum about different interpretations of course as much of it is personal taste and opinion, my aim was to get it as close to how it may have sounded played by an 18th century German lutenist.
@@Quatrapuntal Thank you for your kind response, Sir. It is very clear that Baroque Germans used rubato, and lots of it, though it is not a romantic rubato. The notion that German baroque musicians played in an objectivist mechanical way is actually a late 19th century anti-romantic conception from the conservatories, which reached it's zenith in the mid 20th century. The phrases need to breathe and the notes within the phrases must have a heirarchy. Call it what you, it must be. Be well!
As a player of historical instruments, I try as far as I can to base my interpretation on historical sources rather than subjective opinions. It seems that you are mis-understanding the pre-Romantic meaning of rubato. It is not a speeding up and slowing down of the tempo, which belongs to the mid-19th century on. 18th century rubato is where a soloist takes a certain freedom with rhythm, BUT the accompaniment is to be played in strict time. Therefore the basic tempo is kept constant. The main 18th century German sources such as Quantz, L. Mozart and Bach's own son C.P.E. Bach clearly state this. Mozart himself was known for how strictly he could keep time, and failure to maintain a constant tempo was seen as a weakness. This research explains it all very well: scholarship.claremont.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1123&context=ppr On a solo instrument like the harpsichord/piano and even more so lute, it is virtually impossible to play the melody 'out of time' with the bassline. Therefore 18th century rubato in the case of a solo piece like this means rhythmic staggering of notes (i.e. still in strict tempo) which can be often seen in lute tablature, and perhaps adding certain ornaments. The paper linked above discussed that as well. Playing in strict time does not mean that the performance is mechanical, there are many other nuances of dynamics and phrasing, such as in this piece bringing out the many suspensions and resolutions with dynamics. Thinking that the lack of anachronistic Romantic rubato in Bach makes it mechanical is applying modern aesthetics to a historical style, we must learn to listen to earlier music in its own context to understand it fully and try not to be coloured by what happened later. "The phrases need to breathe" - I still don't understand what that means! "Need to ... it must be" - according to who? That is just subjective opinion, 18th century musicians like Bach did not agree as demonstrated by the sources, therefore neither do I!
HOW MANY DIFFERENCES DID YOU SPOT? Best so far is 8/10!
Good playing, and it's nice to see people keeping the Baroque music era alive on TH-cam.
Thanks. I also use lutes for original contemporary music as well, infact that is the main point of the channel, here is an example: th-cam.com/video/hNeOu00VlxA/w-d-xo.html
well if its baroque dont fix it!
Never knew I was looking for this music untill I listened to it, yes... there it is, what, without knowing it, I have been looking for for many years, and it came to me as this little present, beautifuly played and, needless to say, superbly composed.
Thanks once again.
This is the middle of 3 parts to this piece - you can also hear the Allegro which follows this on the channel. That is probably the most difficult piece of music for baroque lute, which is why there are so few recordings of it on this instrument.
This is so beautiful. And thank you for the interesting background about this piece, and the challenges you had to work though to end up with such a great transcription. Very impressive!
Thanks, this piece is rarely played on the lute because it is so challenging, for a lesser piece the effort wouldn't have been worth it but this was something I used to listen to years ago and never got around to doing properly. I also recorded the allegro that comes after this. Do you play the lute?
It was an excellent performance of Bach fugue. Excellent technic and nuance. Bravo....i wish you my best. Thanks for uploading.
Thanks, I also recorded the Allegro that comes after this, probably the most difficult piece there is for this instrument: th-cam.com/video/WCwzWgjUHh8/w-d-xo.html
Beautiful. It's such a difficult instrument to play because it's so delicate and this fugue, in my opinion, is easier to play on the classical guitar. Great performance!
I've never played it on the guitar but I can confirm it is a beast on the baroque lute, as is the Allegro (also on this channel). It is very rarely played live in concerts on the lute by anyone because it is so difficult. I very rarely do solo concerts and not sure I would dare!
Amazing work and performance. Greetings from Mexico!
Gracias! Have you played this piece before?
@@Quatrapuntal Never before but Im going to try. thanks!
Lovely! You are very talented and skilled. I can only imagine that playing the baroque lute is not easy at all. I've spotted 8 out of 10 changes. 😊 You've got a new subscriber. 😉
Brilliant thank you! The last 2 were pretty subtle, so 8 is pretty good. I think next time I would film it with a more interesting background rather than put the spot the difference, but anyway you have to try new things out as you know...
@@Quatrapuntal Of course. 😀
Nicely done! I like how the video highlights your left-hand technique!
Thanks, that is partly because the body shots didn't come out as well to be honest!
@@Quatrapuntal The whole video is fantastic -- no worries!!!
Thanks so much for this fugue and the allegro. Subscribing and hoping for the prelude.
Thanks Joe - haha maybe! I haven't played this instrument in ages so would have to do a lot of practice! Maybe in the summer.
Can hear the theme in the bass. Real fugue love it.
Thanks, it's tricky with the octave strings as it disguises the pitch of the bassline. In Weiss etc. the bassline is very rarely melodic. It was just about possible to include all of the voices in Bach's original, which can't be done on the guitar because of the more restricted range.
@@Quatrapuntalrevisiting this 4yrs later. What a fantastic performance. You deserve millions of views and the world would be a better place haha!
Lovely soothing music and so well played I like a lot and thanks for your time and performance.
Thank you, this is the next movement which follows on from it: th-cam.com/video/WCwzWgjUHh8/w-d-xo.html
Beautiful work and performance.
Thank you, I appreciate that. I also recorded the allegro that follows this fugue: th-cam.com/video/WCwzWgjUHh8/w-d-xo.html
A revelation! Thank you!
Thanks, this piece is a big challenge, I also have the Allegro that follows this on my channel if you haven't seen that. Have you played this on the guitar?
@@Quatrapuntal Yes, I've played pretty much all of the Bach I can find on the guitar, and even adapted a lot of his music that previously didn't seem to have been touched, including all of the Well-Tempered Clavier. I'm a pretty messy player though.
Another fine performance Chris!
Thanks Robin, this piece is one of the most difficult for this instrument so a considerable challenge
My brain feels very soothed. Thank you.
Always good to have a calm brain!
Beautiful!!! How do you play that thing??? I would be proud of myself if I could just put the strings on and tune it.
It has a very particular technique, but every instrument has things about it that are difficult either technically or in the music played on it. The piano is much easier to play straight away, but when you get into it the music for it is often far more complicated than anything you could play on a lute.
Amazing job. So musical!
Thank you, this piece was a personal challenge for me and I meant to work on it properly for years. But I won't play it too often!
flores, quadro...parabens pela execução e agradeço pela descrição detalhada! no aguardo do Preludio 998!
Obrigado! Não sei quando vou gravar o Prelúdio, mas tenho um vídeo do Allegro no canal. Você é português ou brasileiro?
@@Quatrapuntal Brasileiro
Estive lá há mais de 20 anos para fazer alguns shows com uma amiga brasileira. Lindo país e povo, gostaria de voltar um dia.
This is wonderful. I love both Bach and the Lute, especially when played beautifully. Also, trying to help this get to 10K views!
Thank you, I also recorded the Allegro that goes after this fugue in another video. Still a bit of a way off 10,000 unfortunately. I like the cat profile, did you spot mine in this video?
@@Quatrapuntal Ha ha no I had not, I was listening more than watching. But now I have seen it.
@@timolaf2798 and there is another one hidden in the allegro video, and in 2 more of my videos!
I think that this is the way this fugue should sound. Way better then on a a 6 string guitar. The original voices -as I assume-, clarity of the 4 lines, trasparant texture, counterpoint, natural depth and spaces between the notes makes listening to this to a wonderful experience. Where did you find the original manuscript? Is it somewhere for sale?
Thank you, if it was written for a lute rather than lute-harpsichord which is unclear, it was for this type of lute so understandable that it would sound more natural. The guitar versions are obviously arrangements from some time later, it simply isn't possibly to replicate something requiring 13 courses and a completely different tuning on to 6 strings. It's even more the case with Weiss arranged for 6 string guitar as it was so idiomatically written for the 13 course lute. Copies of the manuscript are easily available online, the actual autograph manuscript was for sale a few years ago, I don't know where it ended up: www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-6012445
It certainly simplifies the fingerings and reduces or eliminates some of the heroic stretches and extensions that are required in the Dmaj guitar transcription. Undoubtedly this reduction in tension would allow for better and more natural performances.
So beautiful.
Thank you, I also recorded the Allegro that follows this piece: th-cam.com/video/WCwzWgjUHh8/w-d-xo.html
so wonderful
Thanks! This is the allegro that follows it: th-cam.com/video/WCwzWgjUHh8/w-d-xo.html
Huge respect, Chris. That’s not easy on a large 13c lute. What’s the string length for the fretted strings? Well done.
Thanks Rob, it's not easy on any kind of lute! I would say this and the allegro (also on the channel) are the most technically difficult pieces for the D minor lute. The string length I believe is 71.5cm, it's a copy of the 1744 Schelle. Not a great instrument, but it's the only one I have!
@@Quatrapuntal Thanks, Chris. You play them well, but I have to say I don’t think Bach’s intention was for them to be played on the lute. I’m not sure of the timeline for when he met Weiss and when he wrote his so-called lute pieces, but I think he probably imitated a lute style, without imagining anyone would be mad enough 😂 to attempt them on a lute. He didn’t think of you, Chris, but he should have! 😎
Yes I agree, and it's discussed in the video description in detail about the issues with this piece. It was very likely composed on the lautenwerk, whether it was ever intended to be played on an actual lute is debatable but it doesn't fit on it very well. Some parts are technically impossible, even the original key is particularly unsuited to the d minor lute as you know, I played it in F.
Beautiful change at 1:50.
Thank you - the piece is in 3 parts, that is where the 2nd part starts. Then the final part repeats the 1st section (ternary form).
Fantastic! Congratulations!
Thank you, need to play something easier now!
Cool stuff :)
Thanks!
This is a very convincing performance, satisfying in every respect. Bach was very fond of the key of Eb--one has only to think of the mighty Prelude and Fugue for organ, BWV 552 the so-called "Saint Anne" that frame Bach's Clavierübung III. But if Bach really did intend BWV 998 for the lute, it's not impossible that F was indeed the original key; and that the Eb version was a transposition for a Lautenwerk pitched a tone higher. Of course, that is all speculation, which I wouldn't dare defend if someone wants to tell me I'm nuts.
Bach and his organbuilder friend Hildebrandt weren't the first to try "to imitate the sound of the lute but without all of the idiosyncrasies and technical issues of the actual lute." Others before them had given it up as a bad business. If the Lautenwerk solved some of the lute's difficulties, it grievously multiplied the lute's tuning problems. We all know Mattheson's jibe about the 80-year-old lutenist who had spent 60 of those years tuning his instrument--which probably had a couple of dozen strings like the lute you're using here. Now double that number for the Lautenwerk, with half of them thin, short strings, as delicate as any chanterelle, and just as inclined to slip their pitch, and worse, break. Out of the frying pan, into the fire!
There is the idea that different keys had different meanings/affekts, but then again Bach himself freely transposed to different keys to suit other instruments, including the lute works themselves as BWV995 was for the cello in a different key. So proving that keys were not so sacrosanct, I think it is shooting yourself in the foot trying to play this already extremely difficult piece in a key very unsuited to the instrument. As is trying to play every bass note at the pitch notated in the keyboard version which is so totally unlike any other music written for this instrument. I doubt it was originally in F, I think he wrote it at the lautenwerk either just for that instrument not considering what keys would work on the real lute, or leaving any lutenist who wanted to play it to adapt it as necessary, as I have done.
This think about the lautenwerk imitating the lute closely is just nonsense when you hear it, it can't do dynamics, and one of the key aspects of the lute sound is extensive slurring which is impossible on the lautenwerk so sounds pretty far off. I also recorded the Allegro, by the way: th-cam.com/video/WCwzWgjUHh8/w-d-xo.html
Gerar playing, me friend, subscribed!
Thank you, I also recorded the allegro that follows this fugue.
very good, this version sounds more than expected, I have a question, the tuning is changed to the major mode in the lute?
Gracias! I am using standard D minor baroque lute tuning. Remember though that I am playing in F major, not D major like on the guitar. The pitch is at A=415 (baroque pitch) so sounds a semitone (half step) lower. F major is a nice key in this tuning so you can use a lot of open strings to get the 'campanella' effect.
Beautiful, :) is there an audio recording out of this piece?
I'm afraid not, other than what is on this video. I have dabbled in Spotify but you have to pay quite a bit to get a track on there and have to wait weeks, and I'm not convinced that it's that successful for music like this. I have recorded the Allegro that comes after this fugue: th-cam.com/video/WCwzWgjUHh8/w-d-xo.html And also a new video using the much larger theorbo: th-cam.com/video/qVk8VS-Ad2c/w-d-xo.html
I love your German Baroque 13 course lute and am very interested where I can get one like yours. Yours has an exceptional tone that perfectly compliments Bach’s timeless music. Who is your luthier? Thank you!
To be honest I don't think this instrument is great, the tone is a little dull and it doesn't 'speak' so easily when you play it harder like other lutes I have. The tone is a combination of many factors, type of strings, RH position, playing technique, acoustics/recording equipment, shape of the body, woods used etc. I would say that there are better instruments available now from plenty of makers!
@@Quatrapuntal Oh wow, thank you for the insight! In that case, can you recommend three luthiers you know will be great? They probably have waiting lists so I’d like to feel confident in the one I order will be incredible. Or do you recommend getting one that’s second hand and how can one be sure it has a beautiful sound? Thank you again for your help!
@@AndersDroid-kw3fq no worries, whereabouts are you? I guess you are aware that they are pretty expensive?
@@Quatrapuntal to be honest, I really don’t know the price of them. I have a feeling they are expensive, so I won’t be too surprised unless I’m WAY off base. What is the range they are going for? I live in San Francisco, California.
@@AndersDroid-kw3fq if you have never played a lute before (or are coming from the guitar) it's better to start of with a renaissance lute. They are more similar to a guitar - the baroque lute is a very different beast - and the technique is less demanding. They are also cheaper. I can only comment on makers in the UK, there is a Lute Society of America who have a Facebook group - I recommend you join that and ask about makers or second hand instruments there, as they will know about luthiers over there. Good luck!
What transcription are you using? I’m a guitarist and have such a hard time finding my way around on my lute guitar- it’s a guitar by Michael Thames with 13 strings and tunes as a baroque lute but with a guitar body. I wish I could learn to look at the keyboard as I see a regular guitar keyboard (I was a professional jazz guitarist at one time and play some classical as well).
Hi I did my own version of it years ago, then revisited and revised it this year. It's impossible to play exactly as Bach wrote on lute or guitar, I have never played it on the guitar so I can't really comment on that. On the lute, the bassline in Weiss and other things composed by lutenists is almost always on the open bass strings. This is not the case with Bach, as it was probably intended for the lautenwerk (lute-harpsichord) rather than actual lute. It fits very badly on the d-minor tuning if you play the bassnotes all as written and feels very unidiomatic and awkward. This is why it so rarely played on the lute, even less on the correct German lute. Many also struggle with the original key of Eb major which I have never understood - Bach thought nothing of transposing pieces into more suitable keys. Eb major fits very badly on an instrument tuned in d minor. My version is in F, the upper parts are all as written by Bach but I put the bassline on the low strings as much as possible to make it sound and feel more like Weiss. It is still very difficult however!
I looked at the video of the 13 string guitar you sent. It's a nice sound, but I much prefer the lute sorry! You don't have the octave basses so all of the bassline sounds very low in pitch and rings on a bit too much. The bass strings on the lute are made of a special material that doesn't sustain as long as normal wound strings and the gut octave strings don't either. You might be able to use those strings on this guitar I don't know. Have you heard of the liuto forte? It is a lute that is designed for guitarists to play. I think they have fixed frets, often single strings, but can be played with nails which is the main issue with playing both lute and guitar. Or the theorbo can be played with fingernails if you wanted to try a historical lute but still be able to play the guitar.
Quatrapuntal very interesting. Yes it’s been a challenge for sure. Agree the bass strings ring perhaps too much. Messing with instruments and strings just isn’t my thing. I just move on! Lazy. Believe it or not I’ve also got a Lautenwerk! Made by Kenneth Hill- brother of harpsichordist Robert Hill. A lot easier to play these lite pieces on keyboard but the funny thing is they don’t fit well on keyboard either. Anyway your performance is great. I’ve always loved this fugue and suite in general.
The strings I use in the bass are by Kürschner, they are I think nylon core and copper wound. They ring on less than the normal silver guitar strings, and sound even better when worn in. You can also get copper wound nylgut strings which are similar. The lautenwerk is a very rare instrument to own! It's an interesting sound on its own but this story of Bach fooling Weiss that he was playing the lute just isn't credible, the sound is quite different. Slurs are a fundamental part of baroque lute technique and the lautenwerk can't do that, it plucks every note which is a different sound. I wonder what happened to it after Bach, there seems no mention of the lautenwerk in the classical period. I imagine it's quite a pain to keep it in tune
Would love to see available as a HD digital download 16bit/44khtz or better. But even on youtube at 320kpbs the sound is amazing!
It was recorded at 48kHz 24bit, at 1080p on TH-cam should be pretty good, although they compress a bit. I have enough material for an album, just looking for the right record company to release it, hopefully it will be later this year.
And now for the prelude?
I need a break from playing very difficult pieces to be honest! I hoped they would get more views - maybe if this reaches 10,000 views I will record the prelude.
Wonderful. I started looking for the differences, but I'm afraid the beauty of the music really stopped me caring about them.
Thank you, which differences do you mean?
@@Quatrapuntal Who cares? Listen the lovely music, man!
But you've got me curious now! Do you mean differences between this and the classical guitar version?
@@Quatrapuntal I just love Bach!
I've just realised that you meant the 'spot the difference' in the video! Sorry for being so thick!!
You studied the baroque lute with a master or you are a self-taught ?
I studied years ago mainly with William Carter, but I was also lucky enough to have a few lessons with Nigel North, who I have always considered to be the greatest modern lutenist at least for baroque lute
@@Quatrapuntal well I would add Robert Barto ...
Yes true, but if I had to choose one I would definitely go for North. For me his playing is cleaner than Barto's and I prefer his tone. But both are great players to be sure.
Omg, didn’t know I’d be watching a spot the difference video 😂
2 for the price of 1! I thought that as it's a pretty long piece, people might be getting bored of looking at a plain background part way through, so I added some extra interest...
yeah about that cat in the background
Which one - in the frame or the statue?
The 1744 Schelle lute by Barber and Harris looks very beautiful but its not so well balanced cause the bass is too strong and the treble doesn´t sing. Do you guess that it´s typical for all the Schelle copies or due to the rosewood body? Would you rather go for a Widhalm or a Hoffmann model and preferably maple body for a more balanced sound?
To be honest this isn't a great instrument, it's just the only one I have and I can't justify the high cost of another! The neck is too thick and overall it doesn't resonate as much as my other instruments. My Schelle theorbo is a lot more resonant, but that was a different maker and maple back. I don't know if that is due to the barring or what. I don't think that the bass is too strong but yes the tone of the treble is a little dull. The best solution is probably the ones that have 3 staggered pegboxes so that the basses get progressively longer, I would have one with a slightly bigger body if possible to stand a better chance when played with other instruments.
@@Quatrapuntal Thanks for your response! I guess it is due to the rosewood back and the construction of the Schelle model to get penetrating basses. That makes the treble somehow dull. It was build by two of the most recommended luthiers in the world, so I don´t think it is poorly constructed. It is an art of craftsmanship like all Barber and Harris-instruments and you easily get a lot of money if you want to sell it. For you a bass rider model with maple bowl or a Martin Hoffmann swan neck would suit better.
I don't know about most recommended luthiers, the instruments I have by other makers definitely play better and resonate more. The instruments are nice to look at and are constructed closely to the originals, but neither of them played the lute at all so there is less consideration of playability or how it speaks. I used to borrow my teacher's 13-course for concerts as it just sounded and played better, I don't think all of that is down to the choice of wood. I would always want a swan neck over bass rider.
@@QuatrapuntalI also allways dreamed of a swan neck lute. When I listened to Nigel Norths "Bach on the lute" recordings I was blown away by his Widhalm swan neck build by Thomas Neitzert. For me it has the ideal lute timbre. You can find videos on youtube where Mikael Sødergaard Christensen plays a similar Neitzert-lute. The sound is simply outstanding. Currently, Thomas Neitzert owns a retailer workshop for fine instruments in London.
@@Quatrapuntal Which Instrument does your teacher play?
Aside from changes in octave register, or using octaves in the bass contrary to original, the only change I noticed was, occasionally, like at 1:29, whereas Bach has parallel 3rds (or 10ths) in the bottom parts, you only have to bottom note. I notice another guitarist did this in his version of Bb partita--ommitted the parallel 3rds. Other than that, I did not detect changes. What are they?
Also, very interesting discussion about the piece, which I've played for many years on keyboard. Man---the Allegro movement is just so idiomatic to guitar, makes me wonder.. he may have been writing idiomatically for lute in that movement.
The differences were in the video, as it's a pretty long piece I put a game of 'spot the difference' to make the video more interesting! Various things change in the background and some very subtle. I worked from the original keyboard score and I think just about managed to include all the voices which is impossible on the guitar. Some maybe less clear because of all the open strings ringing on, it is a very resonant instrument. The baroque lute always has octave stringing in the bass, this is the German type that Bach knew and wrote for so he certainly would have expected that if it was to be played on the lute. It isn't notated in octaves for simplicity, like in the lute part of the St. John Passion. But I think it is much more likely this was intended for the lautenwerk, it is extremely difficult on the lute and some parts technically impossible.
I have a video of the allegro as well, it can be played on the guitar of course but it fits badly (and impossible in the original key) and is very difficult to play. It sounds idiomatic played by someone who has mastered the technical problems, but it isn't at all from a playing point of view, on the lute these pieces are much harder and less idiomatic that contemporaries like Weiss. The bassline is considerably more busy which presents different problems on the lute as they are played mostly on open bass strings by the thumb.
very well played (although I usually prefer it a tiny bit faster) and a very nice transport to F. Actually with baroque lutes string length obviously not able to reach f' (a = 415Hz) in some cases, the first course will "sound" as Eb to a modern ear anyway. the Thomas Edlinger lute (Leipzig No.497) has 77.5cm as main string length, therefore obviously requiring to be tuned AT LEAST one full tone lower... (c minor)
The 13-course lute is so resonant with all the open strings that you can't hear the intricate counterpoint when played too fast, as well it is already difficult enough! I have also recorded the Allegro by the way on this channel, which is even harder. The pitch was far from standardised at A=415 in the 18th century, Dresden for example where Weiss worked for many years was A=392, I believe much French music was conceived at this pitch as well. There is an Edlinger gallichon with a very long scale length, I wonder if he was working to a lower pitch. There are also large lutes that were converted in Germany to use as theorbos, which then had no high F so the top string is D. There are 2 videos on my channel with a German theorbo, copied after the Schelle theorbo of 1728.
I know that theorbo! Great series of videos, by the way: slowly watching them all (I'm an Italian lutenist, MA in lute at the Conservatorio of Pavia), nice to virtually meet you!
Ugualmente, parlo un po' di italiano perché mia moglie è italiana, più spesso in napoletano però! Ho anche suonato in alcune stagioni d'opera in Toscana anni fa. Suoni più liuto rinascimentale o barocco?
@@Quatrapuntal più barocco, sia francese (11 cori) che tedesco (13), ma negli ultimi mesi sto suonando di nuovo il 6 cori, in particolare Francesco da Milano e Jean-Paul Paladin :-)
L'ultima volta che ho avuto un liuto rinascimentale è stato nel 1995! Ho la mandora però che è un po' simile. Non ho mai voluto molti strumenti diversi, non puoi dedicare abbastanza tempo a diventare bravo con ognuno di essi.
This would sound great in a large church
Yes it would, it's a pretty quiet instrument though so you would have to sit fairly close!
I think I've got all 10.
Well done, the last couple are really subtle! I also recorded the Allegro which follows this Fugue: th-cam.com/video/WCwzWgjUHh8/w-d-xo.html
J.S. Cat :)
He was a pretty cool cat...
"How many ... "
No idea, care not.
This initially might sound rude, or any other negative way, but I mean something totally different:
"No idea"
I am not focusing on these.
"Care not"
Differences to me mattered never, as the whole is to be heard as one.
Not as notes.
If is sounds well, all is good.
If it does not, I will not return to the video where things went up the wall for me.
Quite oddly, if it fits well, like here, I do not even notice these oddities, or "anomalies".
If it fits, it just does that, fit, to me. ;)
The differences are in the background, not the music! As it's quite a long piece and the backdrop behind me is quite plain, I added a little game of 'spot the difference'. There are 10 things that change visually in the video, some quite obvious but some more subtle.
Theorbo?
No, this a swan neck German baroque lute. They are sometimes mistakenly referred to as theorbos, but the proper theorbo is considerably bigger with a long neck extension like this: th-cam.com/video/qVk8VS-Ad2c/w-d-xo.html
If I have to have a straightforward approach to this piece, I much prefer Eugen Dombois's version of it. The voicing clarity is great here, as is the technique, but, the phrasing never breathes and, if there is a soul connection between the player and this music it is not shared here.
You are entitled to your opinion of course and to prefer a certain interpretation to another. However I am struggling to understand your point! I was not aware of the version you mentioned, I listened to it and firstly this is played on an archlute, an Italian lute which is not the instrument that Bach knew and wrote for (it is also easier to play I believe on the archlute). Therefore it will have a different tone, but the instrument I am using is the German type most appropriate to Bach. Secondly I don't want to criticise how other people play, that version is well played, but not how I would approach it, for example with all the suspensions and resolutions in this fugue. As to "the phrasing never breathes" I don't understand what that means. If you are referring to the lack of tempo altering rubato, that is absolutely deliberate as it explains in the description. 18th century German music was not played with this type of rubato which is anachronistic and belongs to the mid-19th century onwards. The key 18th century sources confirm this and I personally find it distasteful to add romantic era rubato to baroque music as it is not how it was conceived or played. But people can argue ad infinitum about different interpretations of course as much of it is personal taste and opinion, my aim was to get it as close to how it may have sounded played by an 18th century German lutenist.
@@Quatrapuntal Thank you for your kind response, Sir.
It is very clear that Baroque Germans used rubato, and lots of it, though it is not a romantic rubato.
The notion that German baroque musicians played in an objectivist mechanical way is actually a late 19th century anti-romantic conception from the conservatories, which reached it's zenith in the mid 20th century.
The phrases need to breathe and the notes within the phrases must have a heirarchy.
Call it what you, it must be.
Be well!
As a player of historical instruments, I try as far as I can to base my interpretation on historical sources rather than subjective opinions. It seems that you are mis-understanding the pre-Romantic meaning of rubato. It is not a speeding up and slowing down of the tempo, which belongs to the mid-19th century on. 18th century rubato is where a soloist takes a certain freedom with rhythm, BUT the accompaniment is to be played in strict time. Therefore the basic tempo is kept constant. The main 18th century German sources such as Quantz, L. Mozart and Bach's own son C.P.E. Bach clearly state this. Mozart himself was known for how strictly he could keep time, and failure to maintain a constant tempo was seen as a weakness. This research explains it all very well: scholarship.claremont.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1123&context=ppr
On a solo instrument like the harpsichord/piano and even more so lute, it is virtually impossible to play the melody 'out of time' with the bassline. Therefore 18th century rubato in the case of a solo piece like this means rhythmic staggering of notes (i.e. still in strict tempo) which can be often seen in lute tablature, and perhaps adding certain ornaments. The paper linked above discussed that as well.
Playing in strict time does not mean that the performance is mechanical, there are many other nuances of dynamics and phrasing, such as in this piece bringing out the many suspensions and resolutions with dynamics. Thinking that the lack of anachronistic Romantic rubato in Bach makes it mechanical is applying modern aesthetics to a historical style, we must learn to listen to earlier music in its own context to understand it fully and try not to be coloured by what happened later.
"The phrases need to breathe" - I still don't understand what that means! "Need to ... it must be" - according to who? That is just subjective opinion, 18th century musicians like Bach did not agree as demonstrated by the sources, therefore neither do I!