Thank you. People always say it takes over 100hp to turn a supercharger. The myth is it takes 140hp to make the 12psi a Hellcat has. That electric motor in this setup is like 20hp at max. You are making close to that (horsepower) in your V1 setup on a car. It also proves people wrong that say turbos make boost with "waisted energy." This is a "turbo" or centrifugal compressor. In no world does a motor just waist 20+HP pushing exhaust gas is out of a naturally aspirated engine. If it did the amount of air coming out of the tail pipe would be tremendous (engines are also compressors / air pumps). But when you put a hydraulic motor in your exhaust that must overcome resistance (compressing air) the motor then needs to take some power from the power stroke to PUSH exhaust gasses out the opposing cylinder. Work is not free. Energy needs to be spent to produce work.
They are the now Volvo,Audi, Edelbrock and others already have electric superchargers. The thing that manufacturers are waiting for is the 48v systems that some have now. all cars are going to change to this soon. Amps cut in half Everytime you double the voltage. He is trying to build a cheap at home version. Problem is he already has 4grand into this,not really cheap is it. It is fun to watch without us spending anything tho. Don't think there will ever be cheep kits but they will be a hell of a lot easier to install. A couple hours instead of a couple days, and you don't have to take the engine apart to do it. Just the duct work to the throttle body
I know absolutely nothing about electronics, but I'm loving this! I really want to see it succeed man such a cool well built project. This is the future for Turbo's 👍
@@AlexLTDLX I do wonder if those wires are big enough? I built a pretty dope van with an ex and given it was 12v lots of -00 was used. That vesc is pretty amazing like a haltec for electric motors Hun?
@@AlexLTDLX i know which is crazy But I just wanted to see whats the increase in psi over the previous run I was wondering now you have 2 electric superchargers right? 2 motors 2 compressors 2 batteries Why not put one on a youtubers turbo honda😂😂
@@AlexLTDLX Airflow. If this works on a v8 then it be much better on smaller engines. However with boost the motor is subjected to load. No different to a battery. A dead battery can support 12 volts but when loaded it does not.
Porsche just made one, Magneto Marianelli did one for F1. Call the impeller company and ask what the unit specs are and measure the speed of the impeller. Maybe the procharger supercharger profile would be best. There is info out there regarding this idea to use as a stepping stone. Good work anyways.
Thanks. The Porsche thing is too small as far as I know. I did contact Procharger, but I never heard back. Vortech also hasn't been very helpful. Vortech does publish compressor maps; Procharger doesn't. It would be awesome to get one of them "On the team." But so far, I'm on my own.
@@AlexLTDLX I was thinking, your issue may not be a power issue at all but overdriving the impeller blades making the air supersonic. Like too tall velocity stacks. If the profile of that compressor is too tight the air will stagnate. If mind serves, procharger bragged about their profile being able to get enough air at speed. Those things only spin 50k while regular turbos only did 100k max and that is like airplane certified turbos.. The way you have that thing singing there is no way that procharger is faster than what you're doing. Maybe measure a regular turbo impeller on full tilt at your dyno and compare. Check the airplane industry they may not be so closed to giving the specs up. Good luck.
Loving the progress. You are a far smarter fella than me. That computer stuff makes my head hurt. Although a electric compressor on my big block square body would be fun indeed. Push button axle breaker.
The joys of lifesize RC :) Ive always wanted to try a large EDF fan from RC air craft some of those have crazy flow rates and Hobby grade ESC's are far more advanced than most people realize.
@@AlexLTDLX not alone with that, EDF's are big flow "maybe" low pressure, where perhaps a pair of them inline could stiffen it. now double it. four 90 mm ducted fan units stuffing the intake through two 90 mm pipes should be able to push 4-5 lbs at least, without the "exhaust parasite" and lags. the perfect candidate might be a little Honda EFI engine, you could almost build the forced intake with a soup can and power it up, its intake is about that size anyway. wondered same about a pair of inexpensive 30-40 mm EDF's being used to stuff air into a Briggs/Predator type engine.
@@modelnutty6503 Hi ya there yeah EDF be cool but you would want a counter rotating impeller type 90mm dia they deliver super high flow an excellent pressure but you would have to make the impellers it would be like a setup of 2 EDF intakes facing each other but only look like it internally be 2 motors an righ and left hand pitch blades with straight stator blades in them no need for any stator blade direction just straight parts to hold in your 2 powerfull inrunner type motors I know this because I have built one of these counter rotating EDF for one of my rc jets Jasmine from Sydney australia
Unfortunately, axial compressors are terrible at making boost. 1,2,3 psi, sure. That's why you see jet engines with 10, 15 stages of axial units compounded. It's also why all the "fan" eturbo's suck and even when Roadkill put like 5 gas powered leaf blowers in parallel it only makes a couple few lbs of boost even though they had enough airflow to turbocharge the Queen Mary!
That gauge will bounce because of how the impeller functions. You could use a glycol filled gauge to smooth it out or even some kind of reservoir or pressure vessel so the gauge port isnt getting smacked with air 2" away from the fins. Even the mount vibrating will cause stuff like that to happen but you might be having something really crazy happening here. When the pressurized air is exiting your restrictor it might start to get into a harmonic with the air coming off the fan. If you had a manifold that was something like a 2 foot long piece of 3" tubing with a tee fitting with one side of the tee going to the restrictor and the other going to the gauge it smooth your gauge readings and give you a more accurate source for the pressure. Edit. Its not necessary for your testing. Your testing is functionality testing and is pretty good. Just take the gauge pressure readings with a shovel full of salt. That venturi effect will be there with the restrictor in place as well.
+1 on the glycol gauge. Though this was long ago, I’ve had issues with a high water pressure and The variability within the pump and the only solution was a glycol gauge
I'll put my experience out there of running brushless motors hard. I have used a 350w, 800w and 1500w Himaxx (high quality) brushless motors for some combat robots and for starter motors on briggs and strattons. For the 350w motor, I found I could run it at about 1000w for 10-ish seconds before it would start smoking as a starter motor when heavily loaded. I was using high quality Castle Creations 80A airplane ESC's, but relatively weak A123 M1A cells, though sometimes used some Lipos. I hadn't really pushed the 800w or 1500w motors as hard compared to the 350w motor, but I can tell you they put up to pretty much endless abuse turning over high compression 148 cc briggs and stratton engines (12:1 compression ratio). I used two 800w motors for about a decade each (one for the starter motor with 1000's of cycles on it and one in multiple combat robots for their weapons in many different robot chassis). The original Mamba Monster 1/8th scale RC car ESC + motor combo (essentially a 1515 1Y Neu Motor) is rated for 1250W continuous and 2500W peak, so a 2x multiplier. They claim a max amps of 73 amps on it while being used with a 6s lipo. The ESC was advertised for 300A for 10 seconds back in 2007. I can say this combo has pushed my 15lb RC truck to some extreme speeds and allows it to do a standing back flip while cruising at 60 mph... which is just plain nuts. Today they sell the 5th scale version (Mamba XLX2 and associated 2028 motors) which is very similar to your motor I believe (~800 kv, but 8s max), but is designed for 10 hp+. Made in the USA and has historically had the world's best customer support. I know they have a division for people doing non-RC stuff.
We've beat the heck out of this particular motor. But I've found it saturates around 15kW. Right now the limiting factor appears to be the VESC. The motor got barely warm. Thanks!
3 other potential improvements. Remove cone filter. Put a pipe extention on it 300mm or more, air entering the empellar is hitting it many angles with your current setup. #2 is to use 24v instead of 12v. And to do this is easy, put the battery in series. #3 is to use 2 turbos in series, meaning one feeds the other. Happy testing.
60v for vehicle batteries defeat the purpose for electric motors. These motors are current driven...who in their right mind buys 60v batteries...48v I might agree on, but not 60v. That would be a specialty folks...impeller tip speed is affected by inlet angle folks...putting the cone filter directly on the electric turbo is affecting inlet speed...
This is a really cool project! I love engines and am going to school for electrical engineering. Yoir videos are a great thought experiment for me. It's amazing how much success you are having with such long cables going to your motor. I would think that your signal would end up too bent up by the time it reached the motor to get you to those boost levels at those amps. Keep up the great work!
The new VESC-Tool features a motor comparison tool and that can graph you a lot things out. You can calculate efficiencies, change gearing etc. It will then plot you curves to allow you to optimize your system.
@@AlexLTDLX BLDC mode has not seen a lot of attention in the last time. Looking forward to see the impact of the new gearing. With your 750KV motor and about 59V you should see about 42K motor RPM at 95% duty cycle. Is there a specific impeller RPM you want to achieve?
See it explode!?? Ohhh, there's so way I want to see this thing blow up! I want to see it run your 32,000rpm all day long without a worry! This was a major win - you ironed out some big bugs! Great stuff and well done!
Thanks. There's still a battery current limit issue. Honestly, this VESC is taking a lot more bench testing than any of the other setups did. But then again, they all blew up sooner or later...
I'm a couple of feet offset; but I'm very space limited. I do need to build some sort of blast shield, especially for the big setup coming down the pike.
I know nothing however I have few questions. How many poles are in the motor? What is the motor rpm when it all goes nuts? And finally what is the maximum switching rate of the ESC? Maybe you are reaching the switching limit of the esc. The more poles equals more switching at the same rpm. Just a thought
I know you're doing this for data on the electrical side but in the future an air dampener or some volume would really help with being able to see where the boost actually is. I know its irreverent because you know the map of the charger but it would really help with keeping viewers attention, some people are only here to see the boost numbers lol. I know the gauge is crap but it shouldn't jump like that severely unless it's actually got some turbulence. Add a good amount of volume to the pressure side and get the gauge as far away as possible from the outlet of the charger. Good luck.
I've since discovered that restricting the output and trying to measure pressure is pointless - you'll never be able to get any sort of accurate reflection of boost because an engine is dynamic. But what I do use the restrictor for is to test high-speed durability (restricted flow puts less load on the compressor/motor, which results in much more rpm). If you haven't seen the big unit on the track, the results were hugely eye-opening: th-cam.com/video/nlTVHkfSQXM/w-d-xo.html
Here's a 300 amp meter in my Camaro with my Novi 2000 Paxton and a Kelly motor-drive pushing the Me-0913 @ 72vdc. It pulls 300 amps initially; but quickly settles to 160 A. I'm sure you already know the higher you go in voltage the less the current and casble size required. The backside is it's not user friendly ao you have to fuse and put disconnects where you can get to them. I have an ANL fuse between every battery in my bank, (just in case I ever drop a wrench), and in the charger leads too, plus a big disconnect between the battery bank and the motor-drive. I know I don't have to caution you about fire; but you will actuall FEEL 72vdc if you get accross it. Another advantage of a bigger drive however is the provision for hall-effect sensors. Although the motor you currently use doesn't have them, you might have room to add them because they're tiny (about the same size as a typical solid state transistor) .th-cam.com/video/_Vd2ymSfXAA/w-d-xo.html
The real issue is finding an ESC that'll work. The higher voltage ESCs haven't fared well. I have plenty more LTO cells, but no real point in using them. My next video is unboxing a motor/ESC that makes this setup look like a toy. That's going on the version 1 compressor (at first), and then I'll step it up to see if we can hit 1,000hp.
@@AlexLTDLX I'm anxious to see it; but I think you will find the curve of shaft hp required to get an excess of 15 psi even statically is exponential and not linear.
Boost gauge going wild would seem due to lack of resistance that a motor would give. Higher the rpm the lower the resistance but still a smooth resistance that is much greater than the cold side exiting straight to atmosphere. There is some resistance or the needle wouldn’t move but a full block or a big leak in a cold side tube make the needle bounce like that.
I wouldn't worry too much about the boost gauge right now. We have enough data from previous dyno and drag testing to know what it needs to spin at to make the power we want. Look upon it more as entertainment.
1:00 the current isnt your enemy with inductance, its the voltage. V = L di/dt is the formula, henrys and rate of change are your factors- now imagine battery current going from max to zero in sub fractions of a second. all that energy goes from current to voltage (poential)... and if your motor controller caps(or high side fets) are rated to 100v and they see a 250v spike, they pop. worse, if they pop when theyre closed.
True. But I just gave an off-the cuff quickie on what inductance is and why it was the problem. Getting into the weeds with why high currents are causing voltage spikes would've lost some people. I skipped over that part. I get a lot of, "too much talking" comments.
Please use a way larer air filter and a gauge in the end of the filter to see vacumme u have.. u can see when coming off the load the filter reswells indicating a large restriction
This is the exact same filter we used on the 650hp drag test: th-cam.com/video/AOL3Qyczt3Y/w-d-xo.html It's also a lot bigger than the airfilter I used on the Whipple I had on the car before this (went 9.80's at 140 mph). But it would be a good thing to test on the dyno. Right now I'm using it to keep from sucking stuff into it in the garage (like the cat).
Maybe a sheet of clear aluminum would make you feel safer? 😉 I do like the progress, and the way you are adding on all sorts of adjustments and factors not even you know...lol. Rock On!
boost gauge, would a 6" pipe with a 90 elbow squash that needle bounce? also possible you could stuff the 6" pipe with cotton 3-4" to act as a physical damper. the gauge works, just looks like its getting spanked silly being directly IN the flow source. could save the gauge too I'd think.
Maybe, but I just want to dial it in so we can get it on the car and on the dyno as quickly as possible. The gauge is cheap, and really just there for entertainment purposes.
@@AlexLTDLX just watched newer "53hp" unbox, that idea would be a pretty fun+funny one, a simple frame to swap bolt it to, then see what it does! just as a side+gag project. when you see the comment there you'll laugh too I'd think.
I reflected on this and I think a restriction is needed. The pressure ratio is 1 meaning your moving air without pressure. I would have noted the value of the airflow meter at 5psi when you did the run on the car. I would then put the airflow meter setup on the test rig. As a reference I would then aim for the same voltage on the AFM and the same boost pressure. You will come to realize as you try to maintain the 5psi at the target airflow current will increase rapidly and will potentially challenge the ESC. The motor will require more torque to maintain the pressure at the flow. More torque equal more current. I believe that you should be able to work out how much mechanical power is required to drive the supercharger based on pressure ratio, rpm and flow. You can then work back word to estimate the current draw.
There is no MAF on the car - it's speed density (it would need a giant MAF, and those are difficult to dial in accurately - flow needs to be laminar through them for accurate readings). The whole idea here is just to get it sorted so it can take minimal load (max RPM), and maximum load (wide open, going into choke) and the pulley it for maximum RPM under a "best guess" condition of what it will be on the car. I tend to think that would be a 16 tooth motor pulley with the 18 tooth impeller pulley. Then dyno it and take it to the track. The track is where all the nonsense stops and we see what it's really good for. At this point we do have enough data to make a good conservative guess of power required at low boost levels. Basically, if you use 4kW/200 hp supported, that'll get you in the ball poark, assuming low boost and the compressor's on it's map - not in choke or surge.
I wonder if you are off the edge of the compressor efficiency map? Are the fluctuations you are seeing turbo surge? You could test that by putting in a smaller restriction.
Not likely. This compressor was chosen because it's all a good match. With version 1 we hit 650hp using the same motor and a very similar impeller. This is basically a Vortech Si trim. With version 1 I did get it into surge once or twice. It's very noticeable.
Belt Drive needs inspection, as it's the only difference between working V1 w/ direct drive. The boost flutter fluctuates more on gauge now. Is belt tension ok? Is that belt capable of 30k rpm? GL
Most charts show the belt only up to 14,000 rpm; however data sheets show it's capable of 40,000 rpm... belt tension seems fine; it hasn't appeared to skip at all (it's a toothed belt).
So twisting the wires fixed that will that also help my 8kw stereo in my truck I can hear a db drop from intial power draw til end of the bass note. Ty for teaching me something.
For added safety, try connecting to your lappy with RDP (Remote Desktop Protocol). It works really well on Windows on local networks. The pot control (your hand) could probably be replaced with something that can be controlled electronically.
I like the idea of having a USB cable for testing - 1 less variable to worry about. If you look at some of our other videos, we already have arduino control of the unit when it's in the car. In fact, the arduino sketch is getting to be pretty advanced (courtesy of one of our members at www.electrifiedboost.com); you can set your limit with a pot, it can be variable based on a 0-5 volt input, and it even controls charging out of boost.
I wonder if the tiny compressed volume is so turbulent with the outlet hole that it is actually causing motor loading and unloading. Perhaps blowing into a large tank, like a 30 gallon air tank with the same outlet hole would be a low pass filter in the pressure noise?
Looks like PID control parameters. I believe they are used to bring a system to a set point quickly without oscillation. How is it that the battery amps can be less than the motor amps? How is removing the restrictor able to reduce the speed? I thought it be the other way around. Those power cable are kind of long? Subscribed as this guy is taking one for the team.
Battery amps are less than motor amps because of motor duty cycle. If you had 100 motor amps at 100% duty cycle you'd be seeing 100 battery amps. If you had 100 motor amps and 50% duty cycle you'd see 50 battery amps. Removing the restrictor puts more load on the whole system because it's moving more air. Plus that sends it into choke. If you look at the low power test of this thing I put my hand over the discharge and demonstrate that. Some cables going to have to be long for it to fit in the car. This isn't just an exercise it's a practical application. Thanks for watching & commenting.
@@AlexLTDLX I thought the restriction results in a force against the motor. Hence the motor would require more torque to overcome the restrictive force. More torque equal more power. However If you look at is moving air I guess it will move more air. The test of any pump in my opinion is what it can do under load. In relation to a motor, can the motor hold the rpm when under load (Supercharger making Boost).
Could this electric turbo run at a set speed that wouldn't hinder low speed engine power production than when needed ramp up turbo speed for the more demand? I'm curious how your going to plumb it into the system. So glad I stumbled on to this.
What you do right now is really amazing but I am really wondering if you would have a supercharger of a waverunner or sea doo and you would create quite a lot more boost at lower rpm and also they sell some more agressive wheel that you could change to increase the boost.Stock is13 psi at 8000rpm around.You could have some other wheel to create 23 psi at 8800 rpm.
It's not about boost, it's about air mass. Someone else pointed out the jet ski blower. Those might work perfectly for smaller engines. A jet ski supercharger that makes 23 psi on a jet ski would be nothing more than a restriction on my car (500 hp naturally aspirated).
Maybe you should try to find somebody with a machine to calculate how much cfm you pushed.40cfm is 1psi.Stock 1.8l is 178 hp and 13 psi is near 325hp.What s the size of your outlet.Doesn t seem to be bigger than a waverunner supercharger.
I just want to get this version on the car already... version 1 took less bench testing time. And made 650hp. Until the ESCs started popping like a fireworks factory on fire.
I'm kinda glad to hear that you don't know what everything is either! :-O Looking forward to it being on the car after getting things sorted out, it seems you are making good progress. Are the tracks open up there yet?
I've done better than that. I've drag tested version 1 and made 650hp and unreal gains: th-cam.com/video/AOL3Qyczt3Y/w-d-xo.html This one should be similar (uses the same motor and a similar impeller).
Probably; but I want to get this thing on the car (which has a high-quality boost gauge) asap. This thing is taking a lot of bench-testing to get it dialed in - more than the original setup did. VESC is complicated and not completely "ready for prime-time" if you get my drift.
Lol. I loved that show. But in case you didn't see the big unit in action, it ended up making about 800hp. Here it is at the track: th-cam.com/video/RT0M88xHzNQ/w-d-xo.htmlsi=gqP7vxsoOnOX2k87
I don't know about a full kit since everyone's applications are different, but possible the various parts - motor, ESC, compressor, etc. Possibly even the compressor with the motor pre-mounted. But this is pretty dangerous.
I'm using the super expensive grease meant especially for high-speed bearings made by kluber lubricants. It's called isoflex nbu 15. It's about a dollar a milliliter. It's specifically designed for this kind of thing and I wouldn't have to relube the bearings for about a year. Most new superchargers are self-contained at this point. And many of them use this lubricant actually.
It's surging that's the needle swing when the wheel gets close to actually grabbing air and starting to come onto the compressor map maybe go bigger on the restrictor hole and let the wheel flow so it can grab air and start flowing volume
Could you use a RC ducted fan I'm sure they spin up to 60 .000 rpm or is it to do pressure not flow,I think Porsche recently solved the electric turbo.
I'd say we went public with a lot more powerful version before Porsche did: th-cam.com/video/AOL3Qyczt3Y/w-d-xo.html A ducted fan might work, but you'd need several stages to make enough pressure.
@@AlexLTDLX technically it shouldn't matter, for the impeller. Of course it can be made out of chinesium and be of crap design, that doesn't help. But of course for the bearing system it's alot of speed to handle.
They're sealed. If it becomes and issue, I'll use Kluber Isoflex NBU-15 (that's what I used in the first version, which is about to become the much more high powered version).
So, I need to build this... I have an 11 second quarter mile honda insight, and I think putting one of these on the k24 would be appropriate. Make it a hybrid again.🤫🤭😉
I wonder if you could use a gas rc motor to do the same thing? Gas is more power dense than lipo’s and would be lighter, boost could be increased by servo controlling the carb.
In this case it would have to spin 50,000 RPM and make 20 horsepower, the bigger one if you look at my most recent video is 53 horsepower and 50,000 rpm. But yeah, it would do the same thing.
@@AlexLTDLX ok so it’s not impossible, I’ve been watching tech ingredients making a hybrid generator for a drone, uses a 4 cylinder 2t engine to generate electricity to power a drone, might be of interest to you.
This gauge is easily 20 years old... trust me, it's the gauge. When I put this version on the car, you'll see smooth boost. Actually, here's a video with tons of datalogs from our drag tests with version 1 - see how smooth the boost is? th-cam.com/video/4Wwzjgn4fog/w-d-xo.html
If you wanna get a real look into electric turbos and how to make them efficient, look into the indy cars, they use a hybrid set up. It's electric at low rpm and gas operated high rpm.
I'm trying to avoid the whole exhaust plumbing thing. And as technology continues to improve, I firmly believe exhaust-driven setups will become less common.
@@AlexLTDLX as much as I'd like to agree and hope they're the way of the past at some point, but free power from unused energy is just far too efficient and reliable. The batteries and charging systems to maintain the load itself sorta turns into the supercharger debate all over again.
Nice setup! Dont push that little motor too hard :) I thought that size motor and copper mass was only good for about 2kw const. I'm surpprised that spinning an impeller to 30k rpm needs (60v x 400a =2.4kw), I think that amount of power is for a ebike (100~120kg) going 60km/h. Also, is the impeller have a higher efficiency at higher RPM like more than 60k rpm? Try higher voltage like 100.8v to bring the amp lower. I haven't looked at ebike industry for a while but about three years ago, there was lots of good small (less than 20kw) motor controllers out there. Russia has some good ones, so did china, US didn't sell to the general public from memory. Great video!
If you're concerned about everything exploding why are you standing in the same plane as the rotating parts? Wouldn't it be safer to move 90 degrees around so if anything flies out it won't be coming towards you?
I'm not - I'm offset several feet. But I'm limited by my small garage, and I can't test outside because it's snowing. What I really should do is build some sort of blast shield. I'll need it for the big e turbo anyway.
Ok so if the engine is sucking in a ton of air, I don't think that turbo would build any boost, I might be missing something but, I think the electric turbo is a dead end. However, I still appreciate your videos and you taking the time to share what you are doing. It is very interesting.
@@mark120371 Well I have watched this channel in the past and I like the channel but I was just skeptical and yeah I'm watching the other videos right now. I stand corrected. lol
At the 5 minute mark did he say that he talked to the guy from Trampa boards?.. was wondering if he was using electric stakeboard parts ex .. lithium ion battery pack, VESC, etc. if that’s the case I’m about to try and build one of these turbos.. I build electric skateboard for fun, the setup on running on my board now will do north of 50mph with a 30 mile range… can I gut the skateboard for parts and build one of these. It’s either this or building an electric surfboard, using an impeller and water jet Setup. However I’d really like to throw one of these turbos into my 2002 GMC Sierra 1500 long bed. I think there could be some fun with that. Haha.
Yeah, I was talking with Frank over at Trampa. With the long cable issues we've encountered here, we've switched over to the big unit - MGM/LMT powered. But I'll be coming back to this one with a different motor - a 4 pole sensored Castle Creations motor.
This is RC meets real cars..... I have used motors and controllers for decades but this use is inventive as f#ck.... Can't wait to see it on the real car.
Your wish is granted, sir. We actually drag tested a unit using this exact same motor a year ago: th-cam.com/video/AOL3Qyczt3Y/w-d-xo.html The results were eye-opening, and why I'm proceeding with a bigger version now (along with this version, which should make the same power, but be smaller, cheaper and easier to make).
Probably. But I'm just interested in getting this thing reliable enough to put on the car as soon as possible. The VESC's tuneability certainly makes it good for bench testing.
Maybe; but I'm just enjoying the journey to getting it to work. If I do start selling anything, it'll most likely be various parts needed - for both liability reasons (this is dangerous as hell), and because everyone's application is a bit different. And that would likely happen on our forum - www.electrifiedboost.com.
Hi, I was wondering about something, would there be a way to install a kind of clutch or one way bearing so you could drive the blower with your crank pulley and override it with the electric brushless motor?
@@AlexLTDLX I guess the supply was replenished recently because I was looking for 2 sheets a few months back and none was anywhere to be found. All of it was bought up to encapsulate cashiers at grocery stores.
There is only so much torque this motor can produce. The torque needed to spin the impeller faster needs to be higher and that can be achieved with more gearing. These inrunners want to spin fast and compensate for torque via RPM. At a certain point you can not increase torque by upping the Amps. BTW, 440 Absolute Max is really the very edge you should use. The motor seams to be dialled in very well. If you can push 400A with 440 Absolute Max everything seams to be good. You pushed about 10KW in that test. Changing the gearing will allow you to go higher in ERPM and duty cycle and push a lot more. At the moment you stall the motor by pushing it to it's toque limit. So you can't achieve higher duty cycles. Instead of using 1.22:1 you could use 1:1,5
Hi Frank. I sent you an email. The reason I don't think it's torque limited is because before I doubled observer gain, I could get over 150 battery amps, but over 160 battery amps I got current spikes. As you know, I also have an assortment of pullies on order.
i dont know anything, but it seems like gearing would be the easiest solution. like i said im just a observer pulling for you. and that pressure gauge is not helping you unless you have it on a running engine, its gonna be hard to overcome the vacuum of the engine
I don't know. I can tell you no alternator on earth can power this thing (it's running at 60 volts). It has it's own battery pack. Check out some of my previous videos. We stick-welded with one pack, and had too much power. This thing uses two.
im just curios why you have to have the motor so far away from batterythe dc and ac phase cables must be as close as possible ,or youll allways have issues, our ebike uses up to400 dc amps and 800 phase amps and tried using long cables when testing and would allways have issues
Interesting idea - but I see a bit less efficiency because you have motor/generator losses twice and I think you'd have a hard time getting the generator side to live being close to exhaust heat. I think that batteries are cheaper, easier to package and more efficient. But thinking outside the box is always good - that's how stuff gets invented!
@@AlexLTDLX but can regen down hill and braking and cruise. The control and ability the charge … battery could be reduced a lot too as only need to get boost before exhaust flow is there.. could be more efficient then turbo charger.. still primarily drive of exhaust.. but instant boost
@@AlexLTDLX some 18 wheelers extracted energy mechanical.. instead off waste gate some drive transmission took tourney and sent too flywheel… potential is there..
@@AlexLTDLX or. I drive 8.3 cummins..turbo makes 30 boost off 35 pounds drive pressure..perfect.. except for lag.. wat if used regularl turbo with electric boost only to blow thru lag.. short high loads then exhaust drivin with ability to extract energy any way u want
I'll take shrapnel to the face before it hurts my precious car. In all seriousness, I do have to build a blast shield of some sort - wait until you see my next video.
your current motor is coreless this motor has lower inductance kick back when field is switched and will run at higher rpm and not destroy your esc. The high esc switch off impedance is why the kickback is a much greater voltage than the drive voltage. You will never exceed rpm of the impeller until your esc can handle upwards of double to triple operating voltage it is part of the high shaft speed, the load and core winding type. To get best from this you need to gear up to get the boost. The best gear up setup is dual motor as planet driving the sun because the torque and load on bearings are offset. My study found an optimum with between 2 or 3 to 1 gear up using inrunners of less than 50mm diameter .The motors load and speed hit max hp at the rpm that was safe region of compressor map. Direct drive with a large compressor will require excessive motor requirements that the reverse emf smoke esc. Your power is causing the esc to trip because motor load feedback load too small speed too high GEAR UP!!!! or when you finally have esc that can take the abuse next the internal motor losses will cause it to overheat O yes unloaded will burn brushless motor quick. Get the dyno specs from supplier if possible.. Max hp does not occur at max operating rpm. Also when you install this on the engine the engines dynamic airflow added to compressor will require higher compressor speeds SO GEAR UP!!!.
Remove filter and add correct size elocity stack.. like this off ebay 2" Inlet Car Bellmouth Velocity Stack Oh love the logistics of this i want to see this succeed
Right now the air filter is there to keep from accidentally vacuuming up the cat. FWIW, it's the same filter we made 650hp through using version 1 of the e turbo.
It depends on a lot of factors - tiny, low power turbos do tend to spin that fast. As things get bigger, they slow down. This setup is based on a Vortch Si trim. It's the same as having a 127mm turbo. Check out my compressor map video for more info.
You do know that they make supercapacitors or ultracaps that are capable of 20 thousand amp bursts, they have a built in bms so overcharging or overdrawing it is not going to happen and they're made for a 12v vehicle so they're operating range is like 10v up to 16v take a look at the XS power SB1000-31 supercap which is what I have for my 9k watt sub amplifier they're incredible or just run all lithium batteries like the yinglong cells and you'd have more than enough amperage and reserves to operate this electric turbo with zero issues no voltage drops, no amperage loss just clean constant power!
The problem was supercaps as they have a linear voltage discharge curve. Plus they have a very low power density. I actually have a giant bank of them. Plus I'm running it over 60 volts. For what it's worth, now I'm using lishen 18 amp hour cells, which I understand are also big and car audio circles. Of course, I ended up buying 60 of those cells but hey I'll have some extras.
@@AlexLTDLX yes they're used in car audio but not ad prevalent as you'd think as they're a generic but like I've got limitless lithium cyber 12k and a limitless 25ah lithium battery the cyber has two runs of 2/0 tinned ofc from sky high and the 25ah has one run from the XS SB1000-31 supercap under my hood and then im using a mechman 370amp elite alt and the rebuilt/upgraded oem alt which is now a 270amp I've got a 9,000w amp wired to half ohm so it basically acts like a 18k watt amp and the 4ch is roughly 1200w with two 8in woofers it is quite loud and able to lift a hat right off your head from 5ft away lol but yes I'd take some experience from the car audio scene far as lithium usage alot of people build their own banks out of cmaxx which is old electric car batteries taken apart lol they're incredibly strong but I prefer to stick with cased units that are the safest way to go...
Why does there need to be 17ft of cable? Shorter is better. Every 20ft you need to go up a guage from what is required. If it's calling for 4ga you need 2ga
your gauge needle is jumping because of compressor surge. if its just caped and no air flow . the second theres pressur without flow its way out of its efficincy range. instead of mesuring pressur. measure airflow. 1lbs /minutes is 10hp in gas 4 stroke engines. simple as that. my big question is, how much hp does the electic motor have. and how much does it add in airdflow ? i would wonder if you would see more gains just but putting that electric motor to.thencrank shaft withna drive belt and get an instant hpnincrease on demand without the need for engine tunning.
It wasn't capped. And you're not seeing surge. That motor is rated for 20 hp and we've seen 14kW out of it going down the track. Adding the power straight to the driveline is about 4 times less efficient. Watch our first drag test and dyno videos. It was pretty eye opening.
That's exactly what it is now actually. It's a 22 tooth pulley on the motor and then 18 tooth on the impeller shaft. In fact in order to get the duty cycle up I need to go the other way around. So I'm just waiting for an assortment of pullies to show up. I've got a 16 tooth 14 tooth and 12 tooth on the way.
@@AlexLTDLX I beg to differ! Been working on this very same thing! Since 1996 with brushed and brushless motors! I think you have and extra zero there bud! But if that's the data you got lemme explain my "experience" with 48v nominal 1000w system draws max 25A from a standstill and up to rpm goes to 17A under load with a 600kv motor and got with load rpm =24,800rpm l! Got a 4400kv 12v-16v motor and 1500w and drew 170A burst and 118A constant with 44000rpm same 1:6 on the impeller. So sounds like you need to change somthing! Not trying to sound like an ass but E-I/R basic electrical law I don't know how you got 2000A unless your running a 10kw esc and honestly if the kv is too high on your motor to draw 2000a. Also don't trust clamp current meters! Get a shunt and watt meter that runs in line! You'll see your 400A is most likely lower. The meters don't compensate for wire material and Guage. Got my clamp meter to show me pulling 600A through 20g wire and was cool to the touch. Some show the rms and some show a s. W. A. G.
Too heavy, inefficient and large. I've built several positive displacement setups over the years. The last one on my car was a 2.3L Whipple that went 9.80's at 140 mph and ran on pump gas: th-cam.com/video/j8SNo7kpcxw/w-d-xo.html
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Thank you. People always say it takes over 100hp to turn a supercharger. The myth is it takes 140hp to make the 12psi a Hellcat has. That electric motor in this setup is like 20hp at max. You are making close to that (horsepower) in your V1 setup on a car. It also proves people wrong that say turbos make boost with "waisted energy." This is a "turbo" or centrifugal compressor. In no world does a motor just waist 20+HP pushing exhaust gas is out of a naturally aspirated engine. If it did the amount of air coming out of the tail pipe would be tremendous (engines are also compressors / air pumps). But when you put a hydraulic motor in your exhaust that must overcome resistance (compressing air) the motor then needs to take some power from the power stroke to PUSH exhaust gasses out the opposing cylinder. Work is not free. Energy needs to be spent to produce work.
Very, very interesting. Electric turbos are going to be the near future! Keep up the great work!
They are the now Volvo,Audi, Edelbrock and others already have electric superchargers. The thing that manufacturers are waiting for is the 48v systems that some have now. all cars are going to change to this soon. Amps cut in half Everytime you double the voltage. He is trying to build a cheap at home version. Problem is he already has 4grand into this,not really cheap is it. It is fun to watch without us spending anything tho. Don't think there will ever be cheep kits but they will be a hell of a lot easier to install. A couple hours instead of a couple days, and you don't have to take the engine apart to do it. Just the duct work to the throttle body
I know absolutely nothing about electronics, but I'm loving this! I really want to see it succeed man such a cool well built project. This is the future for Turbo's 👍
Thanks! I couldn't agree more!
Can't wait to see it in action! Im glad to see that belt held 400A
Greek to me it I'm so excited to see this on the Dyno
It's greek to me too. We're all learning this stuff together. That's one of the things I like most about it. Thanks!
@@AlexLTDLX I do wonder if those wires are big enough? I built a pretty dope van with an ex and given it was 12v lots of -00 was used. That vesc is pretty amazing like a haltec for electric motors Hun?
The floor had to be super clean now lol right on man seeing those power numbers is insane
Yes indeed. All the dust in the garage is now all along the walls.
Love it man!!
I was excited to see the max psi on 400 amps though
LOL - you got vacuum. Don't be hung up on boost numbers. 4 psi on my car's engine is 25 psi on a Honda.
@@AlexLTDLX i know which is crazy
But I just wanted to see whats the increase in psi over the previous run
I was wondering now you have 2 electric superchargers right? 2 motors 2 compressors 2 batteries
Why not put one on a youtubers turbo honda😂😂
@@AlexLTDLX Airflow. If this works on a v8 then it be much better on smaller engines. However with boost the motor is subjected to load. No different to a battery. A dead battery can support 12 volts but when loaded it does not.
Do not use FOC, try using a larger, lower KV outrunner and more esc. Love this stuff!! Thanks for sharing!
Check out today's video...
Porsche just made one, Magneto Marianelli did one for F1. Call the impeller company and ask what the unit specs are and measure the speed of the impeller. Maybe the procharger supercharger profile would be best. There is info out there regarding this idea to use as a stepping stone. Good work anyways.
Thanks. The Porsche thing is too small as far as I know. I did contact Procharger, but I never heard back. Vortech also hasn't been very helpful. Vortech does publish compressor maps; Procharger doesn't. It would be awesome to get one of them "On the team." But so far, I'm on my own.
@@AlexLTDLX I was thinking, your issue may not be a power issue at all but overdriving the impeller blades making the air supersonic. Like too tall velocity stacks. If the profile of that compressor is too tight the air will stagnate. If mind serves, procharger bragged about their profile being able to get enough air at speed. Those things only spin 50k while regular turbos only did 100k max and that is like airplane certified turbos.. The way you have that thing singing there is no way that procharger is faster than what you're doing. Maybe measure a regular turbo impeller on full tilt at your dyno and compare. Check the airplane industry they may not be so closed to giving the specs up. Good luck.
Loving the progress. You are a far smarter fella than me. That computer stuff makes my head hurt. Although a electric compressor on my big block square body would be fun indeed. Push button axle breaker.
Can’t wait to see it on the dyno
That makes two of us!
The joys of lifesize RC :) Ive always wanted to try a large EDF fan from RC air craft some of those have crazy flow rates and Hobby grade ESC's are far more advanced than most people realize.
I've had that same exact thought...
@@AlexLTDLX not alone with that, EDF's are big flow "maybe" low pressure, where perhaps a pair of them inline could stiffen it. now double it. four 90 mm ducted fan units stuffing the intake through two 90 mm pipes should be able to push 4-5 lbs at least, without the "exhaust parasite" and lags.
the perfect candidate might be a little Honda EFI engine, you could almost build the forced intake with a soup can and power it up, its intake is about that size anyway. wondered same about a pair of inexpensive 30-40 mm EDF's being used to stuff air into a Briggs/Predator type engine.
thanks for that, there are some beast edf motors available, i was thinking the same,
@@modelnutty6503 Hi ya there yeah EDF be cool but you would want a counter rotating impeller type 90mm dia they deliver super high flow an excellent pressure but you would have to make the impellers it would be like a setup of 2 EDF intakes facing each other but only look like it internally be 2 motors an righ and left hand pitch blades with straight stator blades in them no need for any stator blade direction just straight parts to hold in your 2 powerfull inrunner type motors I know this because I have built one of these counter rotating EDF for one of my rc jets
Jasmine from Sydney australia
Unfortunately, axial compressors are terrible at making boost. 1,2,3 psi, sure. That's why you see jet engines with 10, 15 stages of axial units compounded. It's also why all the "fan" eturbo's suck and even when Roadkill put like 5 gas powered leaf blowers in parallel it only makes a couple few lbs of boost even though they had enough airflow to turbocharge the Queen Mary!
damn, I didn't know what inductance meant until this video. This is cool
Thanks Robbi!
That gauge will bounce because of how the impeller functions. You could use a glycol filled gauge to smooth it out or even some kind of reservoir or pressure vessel so the gauge port isnt getting smacked with air 2" away from the fins. Even the mount vibrating will cause stuff like that to happen but you might be having something really crazy happening here. When the pressurized air is exiting your restrictor it might start to get into a harmonic with the air coming off the fan. If you had a manifold that was something like a 2 foot long piece of 3" tubing with a tee fitting with one side of the tee going to the restrictor and the other going to the gauge it smooth your gauge readings and give you a more accurate source for the pressure.
Edit. Its not necessary for your testing. Your testing is functionality testing and is pretty good. Just take the gauge pressure readings with a shovel full of salt. That venturi effect will be there with the restrictor in place as well.
Maybe, but I just want to dial it in so we can get it on the car and on the dyno as quickly as possible
+1 on the glycol gauge. Though this was long ago, I’ve had issues with a high water pressure and The variability within the pump and the only solution was a glycol gauge
I'll put my experience out there of running brushless motors hard. I have used a 350w, 800w and 1500w Himaxx (high quality) brushless motors for some combat robots and for starter motors on briggs and strattons. For the 350w motor, I found I could run it at about 1000w for 10-ish seconds before it would start smoking as a starter motor when heavily loaded. I was using high quality Castle Creations 80A airplane ESC's, but relatively weak A123 M1A cells, though sometimes used some Lipos. I hadn't really pushed the 800w or 1500w motors as hard compared to the 350w motor, but I can tell you they put up to pretty much endless abuse turning over high compression 148 cc briggs and stratton engines (12:1 compression ratio). I used two 800w motors for about a decade each (one for the starter motor with 1000's of cycles on it and one in multiple combat robots for their weapons in many different robot chassis).
The original Mamba Monster 1/8th scale RC car ESC + motor combo (essentially a 1515 1Y Neu Motor) is rated for 1250W continuous and 2500W peak, so a 2x multiplier. They claim a max amps of 73 amps on it while being used with a 6s lipo. The ESC was advertised for 300A for 10 seconds back in 2007. I can say this combo has pushed my 15lb RC truck to some extreme speeds and allows it to do a standing back flip while cruising at 60 mph... which is just plain nuts. Today they sell the 5th scale version (Mamba XLX2 and associated 2028 motors) which is very similar to your motor I believe (~800 kv, but 8s max), but is designed for 10 hp+. Made in the USA and has historically had the world's best customer support. I know they have a division for people doing non-RC stuff.
I should mention these Himaxx motors were out runner motors. The RC car stuff were all in-runners.
We've beat the heck out of this particular motor. But I've found it saturates around 15kW. Right now the limiting factor appears to be the VESC. The motor got barely warm. Thanks!
I'm excited to see the solution
3 other potential improvements. Remove cone filter. Put a pipe extention on it 300mm or more, air entering the empellar is hitting it many angles with your current setup. #2 is to use 24v instead of 12v. And to do this is easy, put the battery in series. #3 is to use 2 turbos in series, meaning one feeds the other. Happy testing.
Only thing we agree on is two motors.
He's using over 60v not 12v 😂
60v for vehicle batteries defeat the purpose for electric motors. These motors are current driven...who in their right mind buys 60v batteries...48v I might agree on, but not 60v. That would be a specialty folks...impeller tip speed is affected by inlet angle folks...putting the cone filter directly on the electric turbo is affecting inlet speed...
@jeremy philander he's not using a vehicle batery. At all. It's a custom lithium setup.
Spinning a 7000w 50000 rpm motor takes a lot of power
@@jeremyphilander8833 More voltage less current.
This is a really cool project! I love engines and am going to school for electrical engineering. Yoir videos are a great thought experiment for me.
It's amazing how much success you are having with such long cables going to your motor. I would think that your signal would end up too bent up by the time it reached the motor to get you to those boost levels at those amps.
Keep up the great work!
Thank you very much!
The new VESC-Tool features a motor comparison tool and that can graph you a lot things out. You can calculate efficiencies, change gearing etc. It will then plot you curves to allow you to optimize your system.
I might try running it in BLDC mode to see if that makes a difference.
@@AlexLTDLX BLDC mode has not seen a lot of attention in the last time. Looking forward to see the impact of the new gearing. With your 750KV motor and about 59V you should see about 42K motor RPM at 95% duty cycle. Is there a specific impeller RPM you want to achieve?
See it explode!?? Ohhh, there's so way I want to see this thing blow up! I want to see it run your 32,000rpm all day long without a worry!
This was a major win - you ironed out some big bugs! Great stuff and well done!
Thanks. There's still a battery current limit issue. Honestly, this VESC is taking a lot more bench testing than any of the other setups did. But then again, they all blew up sooner or later...
Do you think the inductance, and subsequent spikes are what caused the last ESC to let out the magic smoke?
That's interesting idea!
Very possibly. That means the other ESC's current limit doesn't work very well.
I really like how he has the observation deck perpendicular to the axis of rotation. #SafteyFirst!
I'm a couple of feet offset; but I'm very space limited. I do need to build some sort of blast shield, especially for the big setup coming down the pike.
I think if you mounted the boost gauge remotely with some rubber hose it would dampen the needle so it could be read a little more clearly
I know nothing however I have few questions.
How many poles are in the motor?
What is the motor rpm when it all goes nuts?
And finally what is the maximum switching rate of the ESC?
Maybe you are reaching the switching limit of the esc. The more poles equals more switching at the same rpm.
Just a thought
Not yet - it's a 6 pole motor, and the VESC is good for 150,000 eRPM
Put some volume in that boost pipe. Smooth the gauge out. Love this shit.
Want to get this on the car asap. Thanks!
I know you're doing this for data on the electrical side but in the future an air dampener or some volume would really help with being able to see where the boost actually is. I know its irreverent because you know the map of the charger but it would really help with keeping viewers attention, some people are only here to see the boost numbers lol. I know the gauge is crap but it shouldn't jump like that severely unless it's actually got some turbulence. Add a good amount of volume to the pressure side and get the gauge as far away as possible from the outlet of the charger. Good luck.
I've since discovered that restricting the output and trying to measure pressure is pointless - you'll never be able to get any sort of accurate reflection of boost because an engine is dynamic. But what I do use the restrictor for is to test high-speed durability (restricted flow puts less load on the compressor/motor, which results in much more rpm). If you haven't seen the big unit on the track, the results were hugely eye-opening: th-cam.com/video/nlTVHkfSQXM/w-d-xo.html
Here's a 300 amp meter in my Camaro with my Novi 2000 Paxton and a Kelly motor-drive pushing the Me-0913 @ 72vdc. It pulls 300 amps initially; but quickly settles to 160 A. I'm sure you already know the higher you go in voltage the less the current and casble size required. The backside is it's not user friendly ao you have to fuse and put disconnects where you can get to them. I have an ANL fuse between every battery in my bank, (just in case I ever drop a wrench), and in the charger leads too, plus a big disconnect between the battery bank and the motor-drive. I know I don't have to caution you about fire; but you will actuall FEEL 72vdc if you get accross it. Another advantage of a bigger drive however is the provision for hall-effect sensors. Although the motor you currently use doesn't have them, you might have room to add them because they're tiny (about the same size as a typical solid state transistor) .th-cam.com/video/_Vd2ymSfXAA/w-d-xo.html
The real issue is finding an ESC that'll work. The higher voltage ESCs haven't fared well. I have plenty more LTO cells, but no real point in using them. My next video is unboxing a motor/ESC that makes this setup look like a toy. That's going on the version 1 compressor (at first), and then I'll step it up to see if we can hit 1,000hp.
@@AlexLTDLX I'm anxious to see it; but I think you will find the curve of shaft hp required to get an excess of 15 psi even statically is exponential and not linear.
Boost gauge going wild would seem due to lack of resistance that a motor would give. Higher the rpm the lower the resistance but still a smooth resistance that is much greater than the cold side exiting straight to atmosphere. There is some resistance or the needle wouldn’t move but a full block or a big leak in a cold side tube make the needle bounce like that.
I wouldn't worry too much about the boost gauge right now. We have enough data from previous dyno and drag testing to know what it needs to spin at to make the power we want. Look upon it more as entertainment.
Nice im glad it was what you thought it was. good to know stuff.
It wasn't just inductance, but also the observer gain in the VESC - I wasn't 100% right. Thanks!
1:00 the current isnt your enemy with inductance, its the voltage. V = L di/dt is the formula, henrys and rate of change are your factors- now imagine battery current going from max to zero in sub fractions of a second. all that energy goes from current to voltage (poential)... and if your motor controller caps(or high side fets) are rated to 100v and they see a 250v spike, they pop. worse, if they pop when theyre closed.
True. But I just gave an off-the cuff quickie on what inductance is and why it was the problem. Getting into the weeds with why high currents are causing voltage spikes would've lost some people. I skipped over that part. I get a lot of, "too much talking" comments.
Please use a way larer air filter and a gauge in the end of the filter to see vacumme u have.. u can see when coming off the load the filter reswells indicating a large restriction
This is the exact same filter we used on the 650hp drag test: th-cam.com/video/AOL3Qyczt3Y/w-d-xo.html It's also a lot bigger than the airfilter I used on the Whipple I had on the car before this (went 9.80's at 140 mph). But it would be a good thing to test on the dyno. Right now I'm using it to keep from sucking stuff into it in the garage (like the cat).
Pretty easy to measurement with a fairy sensitive pressure gauge, knowing is better than assuming :)
Maybe a sheet of clear aluminum would make you feel safer? 😉 I do like the progress, and the way you are adding on all sorts of adjustments and factors not even you know...lol. Rock On!
I really should make some sort of proper blast shield. Especially since since is the "small" e turbo. The big one should be downright frightening.
@@AlexLTDLX Or at least turn the turban wheel 90 degrees 😜
boost gauge, would a 6" pipe with a 90 elbow squash that needle bounce? also possible you could stuff the 6" pipe with cotton 3-4" to act as a physical damper. the gauge works, just looks like its getting spanked silly being directly IN the flow source. could save the gauge too I'd think.
Maybe, but I just want to dial it in so we can get it on the car and on the dyno as quickly as possible. The gauge is cheap, and really just there for entertainment purposes.
@@AlexLTDLX just watched newer "53hp" unbox, that idea would be a pretty fun+funny one, a simple frame to swap bolt it to, then see what it does!
just as a side+gag project. when you see the comment there you'll laugh too I'd think.
I reflected on this and I think a restriction is needed. The pressure ratio is 1 meaning your moving air without pressure. I would have noted the value of the airflow meter at 5psi when you did the run on the car. I would then put the airflow meter setup on the test rig. As a reference I would then aim for the same voltage on the AFM and the same boost pressure. You will come to realize as you try to maintain the 5psi at the target airflow current will increase rapidly and will potentially challenge the ESC. The motor will require more torque to maintain the pressure at the flow. More torque equal more current. I believe that you should be able to work out how much mechanical power is required to drive the supercharger based on pressure ratio, rpm and flow. You can then work back word to estimate the current draw.
There is no MAF on the car - it's speed density (it would need a giant MAF, and those are difficult to dial in accurately - flow needs to be laminar through them for accurate readings). The whole idea here is just to get it sorted so it can take minimal load (max RPM), and maximum load (wide open, going into choke) and the pulley it for maximum RPM under a "best guess" condition of what it will be on the car. I tend to think that would be a 16 tooth motor pulley with the 18 tooth impeller pulley. Then dyno it and take it to the track. The track is where all the nonsense stops and we see what it's really good for. At this point we do have enough data to make a good conservative guess of power required at low boost levels. Basically, if you use 4kW/200 hp supported, that'll get you in the ball poark, assuming low boost and the compressor's on it's map - not in choke or surge.
I wonder if you are off the edge of the compressor efficiency map? Are the fluctuations you are seeing turbo surge?
You could test that by putting in a smaller restriction.
Not likely. This compressor was chosen because it's all a good match. With version 1 we hit 650hp using the same motor and a very similar impeller. This is basically a Vortech Si trim. With version 1 I did get it into surge once or twice. It's very noticeable.
Belt Drive needs inspection, as it's the only difference between working V1 w/ direct drive. The boost flutter fluctuates more on gauge now. Is belt tension ok? Is that belt capable of 30k rpm? GL
Most charts show the belt only up to 14,000 rpm; however data sheets show it's capable of 40,000 rpm... belt tension seems fine; it hasn't appeared to skip at all (it's a toothed belt).
So twisting the wires fixed that will that also help my 8kw stereo in my truck I can hear a db drop from intial power draw til end of the bass note. Ty for teaching me something.
I think it helped, but I also think the changes I made in the VESC helped more, to be honest.
For added safety, try connecting to your lappy with RDP (Remote Desktop Protocol). It works really well on Windows on local networks.
The pot control (your hand) could probably be replaced with something that can be controlled electronically.
I like the idea of having a USB cable for testing - 1 less variable to worry about. If you look at some of our other videos, we already have arduino control of the unit when it's in the car. In fact, the arduino sketch is getting to be pretty advanced (courtesy of one of our members at www.electrifiedboost.com); you can set your limit with a pot, it can be variable based on a 0-5 volt input, and it even controls charging out of boost.
How much this E-turbos are making? You are seeing increments of at least 100WHP? When bolt on the engine?
Watch this: th-cam.com/video/AOL3Qyczt3Y/w-d-xo.html
That would rock my 94 ford escort (Laser) b6 1.6L carburettor draw through or blow through though I cant decide.
Go blow through. Draw through is more likely to cause fuel distribution problems, at least in my experience.
@@AlexLTDLX Beats up the blades too.
I wonder if the tiny compressed volume is so turbulent with the outlet hole that it is actually causing motor loading and unloading. Perhaps blowing into a large tank, like a 30 gallon air tank with the same outlet hole would be a low pass filter in the pressure noise?
Maybe, but I just want to dial it in so we can get it on the car and on the dyno as quickly as possible.
Looks like PID control parameters. I believe they are used to bring a system to a set point quickly without oscillation. How is it that the battery amps can be less than the motor amps? How is removing the restrictor able to reduce the speed? I thought it be the other way around. Those power cable are kind of long? Subscribed as this guy is taking one for the team.
Battery amps are less than motor amps because of motor duty cycle. If you had 100 motor amps at 100% duty cycle you'd be seeing 100 battery amps. If you had 100 motor amps and 50% duty cycle you'd see 50 battery amps. Removing the restrictor puts more load on the whole system because it's moving more air. Plus that sends it into choke. If you look at the low power test of this thing I put my hand over the discharge and demonstrate that. Some cables going to have to be long for it to fit in the car. This isn't just an exercise it's a practical application. Thanks for watching & commenting.
@@AlexLTDLX I thought the restriction results in a force against the motor. Hence the motor would require more torque to overcome the restrictive force. More torque equal more power. However If you look at is moving air I guess it will move more air. The test of any pump in my opinion is what it can do under load. In relation to a motor, can the motor hold the rpm when under load (Supercharger making Boost).
My question is that once this is complete and full effect for sale, can this turbo be used on a naturally aspirated cars?
That's the point.
@@AlexLTDLX awesome! Lmk when it’s ready for purchase! I wanna be the first customer! I’ve been watching you build this from the beginning
That sounds great
Could this electric turbo run at a set speed that wouldn't hinder low speed engine power production than when needed ramp up turbo speed for the more demand? I'm curious how your going to plumb it into the system. So glad I stumbled on to this.
It doesn't become a restriction until about450 hp.
What you do right now is really amazing but I am really wondering if you would have a supercharger of a waverunner or sea doo and you would create quite a lot more boost at lower rpm and also they sell some more agressive wheel that you could change to increase the boost.Stock is13 psi at 8000rpm around.You could have some other wheel to create 23 psi at 8800 rpm.
It's not about boost, it's about air mass. Someone else pointed out the jet ski blower. Those might work perfectly for smaller engines. A jet ski supercharger that makes 23 psi on a jet ski would be nothing more than a restriction on my car (500 hp naturally aspirated).
Maybe you should try to find somebody with a machine to calculate how much cfm you pushed.40cfm is 1psi.Stock 1.8l is 178 hp and 13 psi is near 325hp.What s the size of your outlet.Doesn t seem to be bigger than a waverunner supercharger.
Interesting project, try a "glycerin filled pressure gauge" that damps the spikes a little bit.
I just want to get this version on the car already... version 1 took less bench testing time. And made 650hp. Until the ESCs started popping like a fireworks factory on fire.
I'm kinda glad to hear that you don't know what everything is either! :-O Looking forward to it being on the car after getting things sorted out, it seems you are making good progress. Are the tracks open up there yet?
Thanks. It snowed today... the tracks here open at the earliest mid March. But I really want some sort of e turbo on this thing by then.
Have you done any math on what kind of HP the theoretical CFM would support?
I've done better than that. I've drag tested version 1 and made 650hp and unreal gains: th-cam.com/video/AOL3Qyczt3Y/w-d-xo.html This one should be similar (uses the same motor and a similar impeller).
Can't wait for more progress. Would moving the pressure gauge away from the housing smooth the reading a little?
Probably; but I want to get this thing on the car (which has a high-quality boost gauge) asap. This thing is taking a lot of bench-testing to get it dialed in - more than the original setup did. VESC is complicated and not completely "ready for prime-time" if you get my drift.
Strap a HEPA filter on that and I wouldn't be surprised if this was a segment on The Red and Green show
Lol. I loved that show. But in case you didn't see the big unit in action, it ended up making about 800hp. Here it is at the track: th-cam.com/video/RT0M88xHzNQ/w-d-xo.htmlsi=gqP7vxsoOnOX2k87
Do you think you'd ever sell this as a kit once you've worked out the kinks?
I don't know about a full kit since everyone's applications are different, but possible the various parts - motor, ESC, compressor, etc. Possibly even the compressor with the motor pre-mounted. But this is pretty dangerous.
Do you have oil going to the turbo? It needs lubrication! Good luck!
I'm using the super expensive grease meant especially for high-speed bearings made by kluber lubricants. It's called isoflex nbu 15. It's about a dollar a milliliter. It's specifically designed for this kind of thing and I wouldn't have to relube the bearings for about a year. Most new superchargers are self-contained at this point. And many of them use this lubricant actually.
Why not put the esc closer to the motor itself and just run the inputs to the esc longer?
Good question - because that puts a massive load on the input capacitors which can also lead to ESC failure. It's finding the right balance.
Is the compressor entering the surge zone due to lack of outlet ability to flow? I gather the outlet is blocked off ?
No and no. You can see the restrictor I removed in the video.
It's surging that's the needle swing when the wheel gets close to actually grabbing air and starting to come onto the compressor map maybe go bigger on the restrictor hole and let the wheel flow so it can grab air and start flowing volume
Could you use a RC ducted fan I'm sure they spin up to 60 .000 rpm or is it to do pressure not flow,I think Porsche recently solved the electric turbo.
I'd say we went public with a lot more powerful version before Porsche did: th-cam.com/video/AOL3Qyczt3Y/w-d-xo.html A ducted fan might work, but you'd need several stages to make enough pressure.
For a compressor impeller 237m/s is pretty low, you should have alot of margin, if it isn't super weak in its design. Happy boosting :)
Remember it's a supercharger, not a turbo impeller. This impeller caps out at 52,000 rpm, and with version 1, ~28,000 impeller rpm was good for 650hp.
@@AlexLTDLX technically it shouldn't matter, for the impeller. Of course it can be made out of chinesium and be of crap design, that doesn't help. But of course for the bearing system it's alot of speed to handle.
what type of lubrication ( if any ) is on those Supercharger bearings?
They're sealed. If it becomes and issue, I'll use Kluber Isoflex NBU-15 (that's what I used in the first version, which is about to become the much more high powered version).
So, I need to build this...
I have an 11 second quarter mile honda insight, and I think putting one of these on the k24 would be appropriate.
Make it a hybrid again.🤫🤭😉
I wonder if you could use a gas rc motor to do the same thing? Gas is more power dense than lipo’s and would be lighter, boost could be increased by servo controlling the carb.
In this case it would have to spin 50,000 RPM and make 20 horsepower, the bigger one if you look at my most recent video is 53 horsepower and 50,000 rpm. But yeah, it would do the same thing.
@@AlexLTDLX ok so it’s not impossible, I’ve been watching tech ingredients making a hybrid generator for a drone, uses a 4 cylinder 2t engine to generate electricity to power a drone, might be of interest to you.
I'll check it out. Thanks!
The gauge isnt the issue, as it bounces it matches the air filter as it shakes, mabey...bad o ring seal...
Oooh remove air filter
This gauge is easily 20 years old... trust me, it's the gauge. When I put this version on the car, you'll see smooth boost. Actually, here's a video with tons of datalogs from our drag tests with version 1 - see how smooth the boost is? th-cam.com/video/4Wwzjgn4fog/w-d-xo.html
If you wanna get a real look into electric turbos and how to make them efficient, look into the indy cars, they use a hybrid set up. It's electric at low rpm and gas operated high rpm.
I'm trying to avoid the whole exhaust plumbing thing. And as technology continues to improve, I firmly believe exhaust-driven setups will become less common.
@@AlexLTDLX as much as I'd like to agree and hope they're the way of the past at some point, but free power from unused energy is just far too efficient and reliable. The batteries and charging systems to maintain the load itself sorta turns into the supercharger debate all over again.
Nice setup! Dont push that little motor too hard :) I thought that size motor and copper mass was only good for about 2kw const. I'm surpprised that spinning an impeller to 30k rpm needs (60v x 400a =2.4kw), I think that amount of power is for a ebike (100~120kg) going 60km/h. Also, is the impeller have a higher efficiency at higher RPM like more than 60k rpm? Try higher voltage like 100.8v to bring the amp lower. I haven't looked at ebike industry for a while but about three years ago, there was lots of good small (less than 20kw) motor controllers out there. Russia has some good ones, so did china, US didn't sell to the general public from memory. Great video!
In v1, which used the exact same motor, we were seeing just under 14kW continuous. It is surprising how much power it takes to turn that thing.
If you're concerned about everything exploding why are you standing in the same plane as the rotating parts? Wouldn't it be safer to move 90 degrees around so if anything flies out it won't be coming towards you?
I'm not - I'm offset several feet. But I'm limited by my small garage, and I can't test outside because it's snowing. What I really should do is build some sort of blast shield. I'll need it for the big e turbo anyway.
@@AlexLTDLX ah, OK. Looks different on the screen.
Ok so if the engine is sucking in a ton of air, I don't think that turbo would build any boost, I might be missing something but, I think the electric turbo is a dead end. However, I still appreciate your videos and you taking the time to share what you are doing. It is very interesting.
650hp on our first try isn't what I would call a dead end: th-cam.com/video/AOL3Qyczt3Y/w-d-xo.html
Alex I was just about to say the same thing. Guess David is just starting to watch.
@@AlexLTDLX yeah I apologize I spoke to quick. I'm watching the rest of the videos you have on it and yeah, this is interesting.
@@mark120371 Well I have watched this channel in the past and I like the channel but I was just skeptical and yeah I'm watching the other videos right now. I stand corrected. lol
Audi uses it. Garett has an echarger. There is a guy who has one in a miata running 8psi.
Im ready for ittt
Would better shielded cables help? We use twisted shielded all the time but I am not sure about heavy AWG shielded. Just curious
I tried twisting the cables to minimize inductive losses and it really didn't make much difference.
At the 5 minute mark did he say that he talked to the guy from Trampa boards?.. was wondering if he was using electric stakeboard parts ex .. lithium ion battery pack, VESC, etc. if that’s the case I’m about to try and build one of these turbos.. I build electric skateboard for fun, the setup on running on my board now will do north of 50mph with a 30 mile range… can I gut the skateboard for parts and build one of these. It’s either this or building an electric surfboard, using an impeller and water jet Setup. However I’d really like to throw one of these turbos into my 2002 GMC Sierra 1500 long bed. I think there could be some fun with that. Haha.
Yeah, I was talking with Frank over at Trampa. With the long cable issues we've encountered here, we've switched over to the big unit - MGM/LMT powered. But I'll be coming back to this one with a different motor - a 4 pole sensored Castle Creations motor.
This is RC meets real cars..... I have used motors and controllers for decades but this use is inventive as f#ck.... Can't wait to see it on the real car.
Your wish is granted, sir. We actually drag tested a unit using this exact same motor a year ago: th-cam.com/video/AOL3Qyczt3Y/w-d-xo.html The results were eye-opening, and why I'm proceeding with a bigger version now (along with this version, which should make the same power, but be smaller, cheaper and easier to make).
Make an electric turbo fit an electric car!
lol
Pressure gauge used should be liquid filled for smooth reading.
Probably. But I'm just interested in getting this thing reliable enough to put on the car as soon as possible. The VESC's tuneability certainly makes it good for bench testing.
Will they be for sale and how much
Maybe; but I'm just enjoying the journey to getting it to work. If I do start selling anything, it'll most likely be various parts needed - for both liability reasons (this is dangerous as hell), and because everyone's application is a bit different. And that would likely happen on our forum - www.electrifiedboost.com.
Hi, I was wondering about something, would there be a way to install a kind of clutch or one way bearing so you could drive the blower with your crank pulley and override it with the electric brushless motor?
I suppose you could, but why would you want to?
In my head, maybe road racing to boost the lower end charge and get the strap from the crank at very high RPM and while daily driving
Why are your battery leads so long. Seems to be fundamentally limiting your system.
It has to actually fit in the car. I think this video illustrates they weren't the only issue.
Super Sir Salute your hard work Sir 💥 💥💥😎💯
Love it!
Thanks!!
It's getting serious now, plexiglass has been implemented!
Lol. I may go to two layers of plexiglass in the blast shield I should probably build. Then it'll be REALLY serious.
@@AlexLTDLX I guess the supply was replenished recently because I was looking for 2 sheets a few months back and none was anywhere to be found. All of it was bought up to encapsulate cashiers at grocery stores.
There is only so much torque this motor can produce. The torque needed to spin the impeller faster needs to be higher and that can be achieved with more gearing. These inrunners want to spin fast and compensate for torque via RPM. At a certain point you can not increase torque by upping the Amps. BTW, 440 Absolute Max is really the very edge you should use. The motor seams to be dialled in very well. If you can push 400A with 440 Absolute Max everything seams to be good. You pushed about 10KW in that test. Changing the gearing will allow you to go higher in ERPM and duty cycle and push a lot more. At the moment you stall the motor by pushing it to it's toque limit. So you can't achieve higher duty cycles. Instead of using 1.22:1 you could use 1:1,5
Hi Frank. I sent you an email. The reason I don't think it's torque limited is because before I doubled observer gain, I could get over 150 battery amps, but over 160 battery amps I got current spikes. As you know, I also have an assortment of pullies on order.
i dont know anything, but it seems like gearing would be the easiest solution. like i said im just a observer pulling for you. and that pressure gauge is not helping you unless you have it on a running engine, its gonna be hard to overcome the vacuum of the engine
How much horse power does an alternator suck pumping out 400a?
I don't know. I can tell you no alternator on earth can power this thing (it's running at 60 volts). It has it's own battery pack. Check out some of my previous videos. We stick-welded with one pack, and had too much power. This thing uses two.
@@AlexLTDLX shit
I really want to put one on my honda ridgline.
How about building one for hybrids like the Toyota Prius that uses the high voltage hybrid battery 😮
That could work, but you'd need to step down the high voltage, or make a custom ESC/motor. the issue is eRPM.
4 lug cobra wheels?
It is a foxbody. I wonder if anyone would notice that!
im just curios why you have to have the motor so far away from batterythe dc and ac phase cables must be as close as possible ,or youll allways have issues, our ebike uses up to400 dc amps and 800 phase amps and tried using long cables when testing and would allways have issues
The cables are long because the unit has to fit in an actual car so we can do this: th-cam.com/video/nlTVHkfSQXM/w-d-xo.html
Have u thought of a turbine on exhaust to generator to power batteries?
Interesting idea - but I see a bit less efficiency because you have motor/generator losses twice and I think you'd have a hard time getting the generator side to live being close to exhaust heat. I think that batteries are cheaper, easier to package and more efficient. But thinking outside the box is always good - that's how stuff gets invented!
@@AlexLTDLX but can regen down hill and braking and cruise. The control and ability the charge … battery could be reduced a lot too as only need to get boost before exhaust flow is there.. could be more efficient then turbo charger.. still primarily drive of exhaust.. but instant boost
@@AlexLTDLX some 18 wheelers extracted energy mechanical.. instead off waste gate some drive transmission took tourney and sent too flywheel… potential is there..
@@AlexLTDLX or. I drive 8.3 cummins..turbo makes 30 boost off 35 pounds drive pressure..perfect.. except for lag.. wat if used regularl turbo with electric boost only to blow thru lag.. short high loads then exhaust drivin with ability to extract energy any way u want
I would have rotated the turbo a bit just in case it exploded through the side
I'll take shrapnel to the face before it hurts my precious car. In all seriousness, I do have to build a blast shield of some sort - wait until you see my next video.
your current motor is coreless this motor has lower inductance kick back when field is switched and will run at higher rpm and not destroy your esc. The high esc switch off impedance is why the kickback is a much greater voltage than the drive voltage. You will never exceed rpm of the impeller until your esc can handle upwards of double to triple operating voltage it is part of the high shaft speed, the load and core winding type. To get best from this you need to gear up to get the boost. The best gear up setup is dual motor as planet driving the sun because the torque and load on bearings are offset. My study found an optimum with between 2 or 3 to 1 gear up using inrunners of less than 50mm diameter .The motors load and speed hit max hp at the rpm that was safe region of compressor map. Direct drive with a large compressor will require excessive motor requirements that the reverse emf smoke esc. Your power is causing the esc to trip because motor load feedback load too small speed too high GEAR UP!!!! or when you finally have esc that can take the abuse next the internal motor losses will cause it to overheat O yes unloaded will burn brushless motor quick. Get the dyno specs from supplier if possible.. Max hp does not occur at max operating rpm. Also when you install this on the engine the engines dynamic airflow added to compressor will require higher compressor speeds SO GEAR UP!!!.
Remove filter and add correct size elocity stack.. like this off ebay
2" Inlet Car Bellmouth Velocity Stack
Oh love the logistics of this i want to see this succeed
Right now the air filter is there to keep from accidentally vacuuming up the cat. FWIW, it's the same filter we made 650hp through using version 1 of the e turbo.
if it's cheaper than conventional turbos and doesn't consume too much power, might try some time.
Eventually it will be.
Don't most turbos spin at 80000 - 200000 rpm?
It depends on a lot of factors - tiny, low power turbos do tend to spin that fast. As things get bigger, they slow down. This setup is based on a Vortch Si trim. It's the same as having a 127mm turbo. Check out my compressor map video for more info.
The voltage drop might be the limiting factor
It's only dropping a couple of volts. The batteries are way overkill for this thing (my next video will show you why...)
You do know that they make supercapacitors or ultracaps that are capable of 20 thousand amp bursts, they have a built in bms so overcharging or overdrawing it is not going to happen and they're made for a 12v vehicle so they're operating range is like 10v up to 16v take a look at the XS power SB1000-31 supercap which is what I have for my 9k watt sub amplifier they're incredible or just run all lithium batteries like the yinglong cells and you'd have more than enough amperage and reserves to operate this electric turbo with zero issues no voltage drops, no amperage loss just clean constant power!
The problem was supercaps as they have a linear voltage discharge curve. Plus they have a very low power density. I actually have a giant bank of them. Plus I'm running it over 60 volts. For what it's worth, now I'm using lishen 18 amp hour cells, which I understand are also big and car audio circles. Of course, I ended up buying 60 of those cells but hey I'll have some extras.
@@AlexLTDLX yes they're used in car audio but not ad prevalent as you'd think as they're a generic but like I've got limitless lithium cyber 12k and a limitless 25ah lithium battery the cyber has two runs of 2/0 tinned ofc from sky high and the 25ah has one run from the XS SB1000-31 supercap under my hood and then im using a mechman 370amp elite alt and the rebuilt/upgraded oem alt which is now a 270amp I've got a 9,000w amp wired to half ohm so it basically acts like a 18k watt amp and the 4ch is roughly 1200w with two 8in woofers it is quite loud and able to lift a hat right off your head from 5ft away lol but yes I'd take some experience from the car audio scene far as lithium usage alot of people build their own banks out of cmaxx which is old electric car batteries taken apart lol they're incredibly strong but I prefer to stick with cased units that are the safest way to go...
Why does there need to be 17ft of cable? Shorter is better. Every 20ft you need to go up a guage from what is required. If it's calling for 4ga you need 2ga
Because it has to fit in the car.
@@AlexLTDLX guess batts. are in the trunk
your gauge needle is jumping because of compressor surge. if its just caped and no air flow . the second theres pressur without flow its way out of its efficincy range. instead of mesuring pressur. measure airflow. 1lbs /minutes is 10hp in gas 4 stroke engines. simple as that.
my big question is, how much hp does the electic motor have. and how much does it add in airdflow ?
i would wonder if you would see more gains just but putting that electric motor to.thencrank shaft withna drive belt and get an instant hpnincrease on demand without the need for engine tunning.
It wasn't capped. And you're not seeing surge. That motor is rated for 20 hp and we've seen 14kW out of it going down the track. Adding the power straight to the driveline is about 4 times less efficient. Watch our first drag test and dyno videos. It was pretty eye opening.
@@AlexLTDLX sweet il take a look at that ! thanks for the reply and keep up the good content !
Thanks. Here's the drag test: th-cam.com/video/AOL3Qyczt3Y/w-d-xo.html
Lord I was born a rambling man.
What about running a big gear on elec motor shaft & smaller gear on turbo shaft?
That's exactly what it is now actually. It's a 22 tooth pulley on the motor and then 18 tooth on the impeller shaft. In fact in order to get the duty cycle up I need to go the other way around. So I'm just waiting for an assortment of pullies to show up. I've got a 16 tooth 14 tooth and 12 tooth on the way.
2-4 gage cable, drop 1 3rd of restrictor.
That should balance out
Everyone tries to go more volts but Noone ever tried to gear it up instead and make 12v work lol!
To get the same power at 12 volts you need 2,000 amps. The cables for that would be prohibitively expensive and heavy.
@@AlexLTDLX I beg to differ! Been working on this very same thing! Since 1996 with brushed and brushless motors! I think you have and extra zero there bud! But if that's the data you got lemme explain my "experience" with 48v nominal 1000w system draws max 25A from a standstill and up to rpm goes to 17A under load with a 600kv motor and got with load rpm =24,800rpm l! Got a 4400kv 12v-16v motor and 1500w and drew 170A burst and 118A constant with 44000rpm same 1:6 on the impeller. So sounds like you need to change somthing! Not trying to sound like an ass but E-I/R basic electrical law I don't know how you got 2000A unless your running a 10kw esc and honestly if the kv is too high on your motor to draw 2000a. Also don't trust clamp current meters! Get a shunt and watt meter that runs in line! You'll see your 400A is most likely lower. The meters don't compensate for wire material and Guage. Got my clamp meter to show me pulling 600A through 20g wire and was cool to the touch. Some show the rms and some show a s. W. A. G.
48v 400a ?
Why don't you use a supercharger like roots and an electric drive
Too heavy, inefficient and large. I've built several positive displacement setups over the years. The last one on my car was a 2.3L Whipple that went 9.80's at 140 mph and ran on pump gas: th-cam.com/video/j8SNo7kpcxw/w-d-xo.html
Porsche JUST patented this. Lol