This is very helpful information! I completed an engine swap and it came with newer pressure plate (no middle ring). Target car has throw out bearing for the older swing axle so did not provide the distance required to properly engage. Watched your video, dropped motor again, swapped pressure plates so once again compatible - Viola ! Thanks
Thanks a mill for this video! It helped me sort through the mess that the last owner created and the resulting grenading of my clutch! Very informative and saved my ass of installing the same wrong parts!
Great info! Helped me verify the ‘72 I recently purchased has the proper transmission, throwout bearing and pressure plate. Can never be sure buying a 50 year old car.
Very informative video. Well done and described! I went with the latter, modifying the old style pressure plate to fit new style transmission. Course, now I have the problem of not disengaging. But, this video has explained alot that was just left up in the air. Great job explaining the differences and how they can and cannot interchange. Blessings and respect!
Thanks! Yeah, I ran across one of my pressure plates the other day and I was reminded of your video from a week or two ago regarding the upcoming trans swap, so it got me to thinking that it might make a decent (although long winded) video if anyone is out searching for info on the subject. Dang, I hate that your clutch isn't releasing pressure from the flywheel. I'll have to watch your latest video when I get a chance and see if anything catches my eye to help out. Are you sure that the cross-shaft lever is fully being pulled to the point that it opens the diaphram?....it takes a good bit of leverage/torque to depress those pressure plates. Before I went with a hydraulic clutch and was using a manual foot pedal and cable, it always suprised me how much pressure my leg had to push down to disengage the clutch.
@@culturedredneckgarage3784 I enjoyed your video as it is filling a void information wise that really isn't just "out there". I'm sure others along the lines will too!
Can't find a video about bug bus trans swap. Or input shaft lengths. Don't have them nearby. But one was definitely longer or maybe the bell housing is deeper? Either way couldn't find any answers. I suppose I should swing by the Transmission shop to get it cleared up.
Thank you for the kind words John! I'm glad that you are finding it helpful. There's certainly a lot to know about these transaxles, and a lot that I still don't know. Thanks for watching!
I was wondering why my engine didn't pop in place, spent the whole day trying to fix it. I have a late style throw-out bearing and my parts dealer sold me an early style pressure plate... gonna try to do the fix from your video tomorrow. Thanks for the awesome video!
Glad it was informative to you! The mod that I made should work fine, but if your parts dealer can swap it out for a late model style, you might be better off to do that…as it can be a pain sometimes removing that ring. Make sure to adjust your cutch cable if need be to take up any slack or tightness from the new clutch components. Hope it works out for you!
@@culturedredneckgarage3784 The ring was indeed a real pain to remove, but I managed to do it with some patience. Now as you say my clutch cable needs some adjustment, but the wingnut is really stuck... I don't want to take the engine out again but I may have to do so. Anyhow, thanks again for your video, keep it up!
Thank you so much for this video. I did a t2 conversion on my 72 beetle. All went well but I had a definite rubbing/grind noise once I started. It. It would go away once I pressed the clutch pedal. I suspected it had something to do with the throw out bearing. I had taken off the guide collar from the transmission because the pressure plate would not fit over it. I also suspected the center ring would come out but didn’t want to screw anything up. The “ hack you showed confirmed what I was thinking that center collar can come out. Thanks so much. BTW bus motor in bug is nice.
Glad it was helpful! I was taught that hack sometime ago. While I feel that it's technically better to have a Kennedy or OEM style pressure plate that has a slightly more open diameter (meaning diaphragm fingers are more centered on the T.O. bearing), this will work in "most" cases so long as the diaphragm fingers ride on the T.O. bearing correctly. Good luck with it!
Thank you sir! I probably could've brought a few more pressure plates in from the old parts stash (like a three-armed style, ect.) and even articulated the subject even a bit more, but this was done on a whim. Hopefully it fills a gap of info somewhere.
I had a 3-arm pressure plate on the 1835cc engine in my 1970, and to swap that engine into my 1971 back in 2005 I removed the center ring from that, works great. Of course, I also could've just used the pressure plate on the 1971's engine.
Yep, we have a 3-arm or two laying around somewhere, and I’ve heard that you can definitely use it on both versions as well. I’m glad you confirmed that for me! Thanks for watching!
Great video. I was wondering why I had the guide on my 70 Ghia with a 74 engine. Guess it has the 74 transaxle. Wish I could send you a picture of the guide from mine. I believe someone ran the earlier clutch plate with the ring on the trans with the guide. It's got a ring worn almost through around it.
Thanks, and I'm glad you enjoyed it. VWs nowadays often have such a mix of different year stuff that it can be confusing. Heck, when I got my first buggy and started fiddling with these things over 20 years ago, it came with 3 or 4 different components that didn't go together.... a 6v engine that required a 12v flywheel, a 69 transaxle that needed a late model nose cone AND mount to fit my late model rear end, as well as a different starter to make it work..... Talk about a learning experience for a rookie!
Been fkn with this issue for a year, and you just explained Have old style TB with Kennedy PP and exact problem You’re amazing now I can correct this. Do you suggest the sachs upgrade, who sells part number. Tks so much💯💯💯
Thank you, I appreciate it! I'm so glad that the info has helped you like it has. I currently have a couple of "late-style" TB applications and one buggy that has the "early-style" TB - I have yet to do the upgrade myself to my swing axle buggy (with early style TB). I might lean towards that if/when I do any transaxle work in the future to it. If it were me, I'd say that if your transmission is working fine, no input shaft seal leaks, and if you have a good early-style TB...I'd probably leave it alone for now and just run the early "ringed" pressure plate with it and have fun! There's nothing wrong with them as is, I just like the late-style center guide a tad more - but I've run them both ways with fine results. Kustom1warehouse sells the upgrade kit - but just let me tell ya, this kit comes with a new cross-shaft, and those things can be a pain to remove, especially if you want to keep your old clutch lever. www.kustom1warehouse.net/Throw_out_bearing_conversion_kit_p/113141165bconv.htm
Great job on getting this information. Small question what should be a space between late style clutch pressure plates and throw-out bearing? Usually in the cars It's around 3-4mm, but I heard that some beetles it was touching all the time, and it was running down throw-out bearings.
Thank you for the kind and encouraging comment! As far as the bearing to clutch-plate clearance is concerned, I really don’t know the answer at the moment, but at least from my perspective, it would seem odd if an engineer had designed them to constantly touch. I’ve ran both combinations of early and late style set-ups with both cable and hydraulic clutch packages…and with each, I’ve always had at least a small bit of play between the components. At least in my situations the play could be felt & heard ever so slightly when touching the pedal (cable more so than hydraulic). I know that’s not a definite answer, but it seems to make sense to me. Hope that helps!
Thanks for a fast replay. I know what you mean, it would be weird for me as well. But sometimes can't understand engineers thinking, mostly in newer cars. Would be nice to know the exact location of the flywheel from the engine flange or its location in the gearbox flange so could accurately measure the correct space between TO and PP. As incorrect spacing will not have enough movement of TO to disengage the clutch correctly, You mentioned that your self in the video.
I don’t, but my “guess” would be that it would likely be different from pressure plate to pressure plate - I’ve seen a couple of slightly different versions of diaphragm style plates, and it wouldn’t surprise me if the combination of components had a some minor weight differences between them. But for what it’s worth, between the late and early style, it’s probably minor since the “ring” is so close to the input shaft and has less rotating weight.
If you mean the "ring" on the old diaphragm pressure plate, I don't believe if should have too much if any. most that I've had feel tight with no real noticeable play, but I've had one that was a little loose. With that particular one, I once asked a professional VW guy the same question and he said that it's not supposed to have any play, but he'd run it if he had to. In other words it would probably ride on the throw-out bearing fine once pressure was applied.
I see that many people with 180mm flywheel change up to a 200mm ,is there a worthwhile benefit to that, it's not obvious to me having a stock 72 1200bug with 180flywheel.Thanks, this video is great.
I'm just now seeing your comment, but to answer your question, there are a couple of benefits that come to mind. 1) is that for the most part, I'm pretty sure that most if not all 180mm flywheels are to be used with a 6-volt starter...so often times when folks would step up to a 12-volt system, it sorta required you step up to the 12-volt starter and flywheel (although I have seen an instance or two were there were some cheats to get around this). 2) with the larger 200mm flywheel, you'll have more surface area for a clutch disc to clamp to....which with greater horsepower is needed to prevent it from slipping. So you have a 1972 1200 with a 180 flywheel?....is it on a 12 volt or 6 volt system?....That's Interesting for a 72 model. Anyways, thanks for the compliments, and I hope that sheds a little light!
What size are those plates 180mm or 200mm to the fly wheel. I have a 1972. Bought a 1600 single port as the other original double port was seized. however the fly wheel on the new one is 180mm clutch plate. The gear box is the older 1972 style. And the old pressure plate doesn’t fit. It seems it’s a 200mm at least.
These that I have in the video are a 200mm clutch & disk for use with a 200mm flywheel. If I'm interpreting correctly, it sounds like at some point somebody installed the 180mm flywheel on what you call your new engine to run that 1600 in a 6-volt car with a 6-volt starter, as the gear teeth on a 6-volt flywheel/starter is different than that of a 12-volt. We did this same thing in my dad's fiberglass buggy.....when he bought it, it came with a 1966-down swing axle, 1200cc single port with a 180mm flywheel, all of which were still 6-volt. He wanted to install a running 1600 in it, so I think he swapped the 180mm flywheel/clutch over to the 1600 so that it could be turned over by the existing 6-volt system and starter. I suspect that's what happed with this new engine in the past. I would suggest that you remove that 200mm flywheel/clutch (assuming it's in decent shape) from your seized engine and move it over to your new 1600. That way, you are assured that it will mate to your transaxle and starter. Good luck!
The bug is a 12v system. My thinking is the reco motor which has the 180mm should have a 200mm fly wheel to suit the set up/gearbox. As the old clutch pressure plate we got with the car doesn’t have the retainer in the middle. It’s just open.
Ok well, what about the thickness of the pressure plate and or clutch? I already know I ordered the wrong clutch for my trans, I have an early trans and a 74 engine. But when I tried to bolt up the clutch and all with my engine so I could mate the engine to the trans, the pressure plate had 1/4” of space where it bolts to the flywheel. I have the right clutch on order, I hope, but it doesn’t make sense that the pressure plate wouldn’t bolt to the flywheel.
hmm... I think I understand what you're saying, but let me ask... so are you saying that at the point of contact with all components (pressure-plate/clutch/flywheel) that you still have 1/4" of space and/or bolt thread still to go before tightened up with the flywheel? If that's what you're saying, that should be perfectly normal & and good thing at that. In other words, as you further tighten everything down, that will actually be the pressure plate in it's "clamped state". In fact, as you tighten those bolts, you should see the diaphragm tighten up and close-up somewhat. It's only when the throw-out bearing engages the pressure plate EVEN FURTHER that all those components are "relaxed" to the point of not contacting the flywheel and allowing the clutch pad to float in between. This is all assuming that you have the correct flywheel and clutch components together - (i.e. 200mm, 130 tooth, 12v flywheel, mated to 200mm clutch.... or 180mm, 109 tooth, 6v flywheel, mated to a 180mm clutch). Hope that helps!
This is very helpful information!
I completed an engine swap and it came with newer pressure plate (no middle ring). Target car has throw out bearing for the older swing axle so did not provide the distance required to properly engage. Watched your video, dropped motor again, swapped pressure plates so once again compatible - Viola ! Thanks
I'm Glad It helped you Sir! Thanks for the support!
This clears up the differing plate styles and transaxle applications and why they differ.
Thanks a mill for this video! It helped me sort through the mess that the last owner created and the resulting grenading of my clutch! Very informative and saved my ass of installing the same wrong parts!
That’s awesome! I’m glad it was helpful to you!… thanks for watching good sir.
Great info! Helped me verify the ‘72 I recently purchased has the proper transmission, throwout bearing and pressure plate. Can never be sure buying a 50 year old car.
Glad it was helpful to you! Yeah, you never know what combos people have put together over 5 decades- especially with VWs.
Very informative video. Well done and described! I went with the latter, modifying the old style pressure plate to fit new style transmission. Course, now I have the problem of not disengaging. But, this video has explained alot that was just left up in the air. Great job explaining the differences and how they can and cannot interchange. Blessings and respect!
Thanks! Yeah, I ran across one of my pressure plates the other day and I was reminded of your video from a week or two ago regarding the upcoming trans swap, so it got me to thinking that it might make a decent (although long winded) video if anyone is out searching for info on the subject. Dang, I hate that your clutch isn't releasing pressure from the flywheel. I'll have to watch your latest video when I get a chance and see if anything catches my eye to help out. Are you sure that the cross-shaft lever is fully being pulled to the point that it opens the diaphram?....it takes a good bit of leverage/torque to depress those pressure plates. Before I went with a hydraulic clutch and was using a manual foot pedal and cable, it always suprised me how much pressure my leg had to push down to disengage the clutch.
@@culturedredneckgarage3784 I enjoyed your video as it is filling a void information wise that really isn't just "out there". I'm sure others along the lines will too!
Can't find a video about bug bus trans swap. Or input shaft lengths. Don't have them nearby. But one was definitely longer or maybe the bell housing is deeper?
Either way couldn't find any answers. I suppose I should swing by the Transmission shop to get it cleared up.
This was awesome. Going thru it right now. Thank you for putting this out there
Thank you for the kind words John! I'm glad that you are finding it helpful. There's certainly a lot to know about these transaxles, and a lot that I still don't know. Thanks for watching!
I was wondering why my engine didn't pop in place, spent the whole day trying to fix it. I have a late style throw-out bearing and my parts dealer sold me an early style pressure plate... gonna try to do the fix from your video tomorrow. Thanks for the awesome video!
Glad it was informative to you! The mod that I made should work fine, but if your parts dealer can swap it out for a late model style, you might be better off to do that…as it can be a pain sometimes removing that ring. Make sure to adjust your cutch cable if need be to take up any slack or tightness from the new clutch components. Hope it works out for you!
@@culturedredneckgarage3784 The ring was indeed a real pain to remove, but I managed to do it with some patience. Now as you say my clutch cable needs some adjustment, but the wingnut is really stuck... I don't want to take the engine out again but I may have to do so. Anyhow, thanks again for your video, keep it up!
Thank you so much for this video. I did a t2 conversion on my 72 beetle. All went well but I had a definite rubbing/grind noise once I started. It. It would go away once I pressed the clutch pedal. I suspected it had something to do with the throw out bearing. I had taken off the guide collar from the transmission because the pressure plate would not fit over it. I also suspected the center ring would come out but didn’t want to screw anything up. The “ hack you showed confirmed what I was thinking that center collar can come out. Thanks so much. BTW bus motor in bug is nice.
Glad it was helpful! I was taught that hack sometime ago. While I feel that it's technically better to have a Kennedy or OEM style pressure plate that has a slightly more open diameter (meaning diaphragm fingers are more centered on the T.O. bearing), this will work in "most" cases so long as the diaphragm fingers ride on the T.O. bearing correctly. Good luck with it!
Good video, I was going to do a video like this.
Glad you did it.
Thank you sir! I probably could've brought a few more pressure plates in from the old parts stash (like a three-armed style, ect.) and even articulated the subject even a bit more, but this was done on a whim. Hopefully it fills a gap of info somewhere.
I had a 3-arm pressure plate on the 1835cc engine in my 1970, and to swap that engine into my 1971 back in 2005 I removed the center ring from that, works great. Of course, I also could've just used the pressure plate on the 1971's engine.
Yep, we have a 3-arm or two laying around somewhere, and I’ve heard that you can definitely use it on both versions as well. I’m glad you confirmed that for me! Thanks for watching!
Very nice video very helpful thanks 👌👌👌
great video, helped me considerably
Glad I could help! Thanks for watching!
Great information
Great video
Thankyou helped a lot
Great video. I was wondering why I had the guide on my 70 Ghia with a 74 engine. Guess it has the 74 transaxle. Wish I could send you a picture of the guide from mine. I believe someone ran the earlier clutch plate with the ring on the trans with the guide. It's got a ring worn almost through around it.
Thanks, and I'm glad you enjoyed it. VWs nowadays often have such a mix of different year stuff that it can be confusing. Heck, when I got my first buggy and started fiddling with these things over 20 years ago, it came with 3 or 4 different components that didn't go together.... a 6v engine that required a 12v flywheel, a 69 transaxle that needed a late model nose cone AND mount to fit my late model rear end, as well as a different starter to make it work..... Talk about a learning experience for a rookie!
Been fkn with this issue for a year, and you just explained
Have old style TB with Kennedy PP and exact problem
You’re amazing now I can correct this.
Do you suggest the sachs upgrade, who sells part number.
Tks so much💯💯💯
Thank you, I appreciate it! I'm so glad that the info has helped you like it has. I currently have a couple of "late-style" TB applications and one buggy that has the "early-style" TB - I have yet to do the upgrade myself to my swing axle buggy (with early style TB). I might lean towards that if/when I do any transaxle work in the future to it. If it were me, I'd say that if your transmission is working fine, no input shaft seal leaks, and if you have a good early-style TB...I'd probably leave it alone for now and just run the early "ringed" pressure plate with it and have fun! There's nothing wrong with them as is, I just like the late-style center guide a tad more - but I've run them both ways with fine results.
Kustom1warehouse sells the upgrade kit - but just let me tell ya, this kit comes with a new cross-shaft, and those things can be a pain to remove, especially if you want to keep your old clutch lever.
www.kustom1warehouse.net/Throw_out_bearing_conversion_kit_p/113141165bconv.htm
Thank you!
You are very welcome! Hope it was helpful.
Awesome video, thanks for the great tip
Glad you enjoyed it!
Great job on getting this information. Small question what should be a space between late style clutch pressure plates and throw-out bearing? Usually in the cars It's around 3-4mm, but I heard that some beetles it was touching all the time, and it was running down throw-out bearings.
Thank you for the kind and encouraging comment! As far as the bearing to clutch-plate clearance is concerned, I really don’t know the answer at the moment, but at least from my perspective, it would seem odd if an engineer had designed them to constantly touch. I’ve ran both combinations of early and late style set-ups with both cable and hydraulic clutch packages…and with each, I’ve always had at least a small bit of play between the components. At least in my situations the play could be felt & heard ever so slightly when touching the pedal (cable more so than hydraulic). I know that’s not a definite answer, but it seems to make sense to me. Hope that helps!
Thanks for a fast replay. I know what you mean, it would be weird for me as well. But sometimes can't understand engineers thinking, mostly in newer cars. Would be nice to know the exact location of the flywheel from the engine flange or its location in the gearbox flange so could accurately measure the correct space between TO and PP. As incorrect spacing will not have enough movement of TO to disengage the clutch correctly, You mentioned that your self in the video.
Great video. Do you know the weight differance between the old and new style pressure plates?
I don’t, but my “guess” would be that it would likely be different from pressure plate to pressure plate - I’ve seen a couple of slightly different versions of diaphragm style plates, and it wouldn’t surprise me if the combination of components had a some minor weight differences between them. But for what it’s worth, between the late and early style, it’s probably minor since the “ring” is so close to the input shaft and has less rotating weight.
On the old style pressure plate with the sleeve, should it have any play in it.
If you mean the "ring" on the old diaphragm pressure plate, I don't believe if should have too much if any. most that I've had feel tight with no real noticeable play, but I've had one that was a little loose. With that particular one, I once asked a professional VW guy the same question and he said that it's not supposed to have any play, but he'd run it if he had to. In other words it would probably ride on the throw-out bearing fine once pressure was applied.
I see that many people with 180mm flywheel change up to a 200mm ,is there a worthwhile benefit to that, it's not obvious to me having a stock 72 1200bug with 180flywheel.Thanks, this video is great.
I'm just now seeing your comment, but to answer your question, there are a couple of benefits that come to mind. 1) is that for the most part, I'm pretty sure that most if not all 180mm flywheels are to be used with a 6-volt starter...so often times when folks would step up to a 12-volt system, it sorta required you step up to the 12-volt starter and flywheel (although I have seen an instance or two were there were some cheats to get around this). 2) with the larger 200mm flywheel, you'll have more surface area for a clutch disc to clamp to....which with greater horsepower is needed to prevent it from slipping. So you have a 1972 1200 with a 180 flywheel?....is it on a 12 volt or 6 volt system?....That's Interesting for a 72 model. Anyways, thanks for the compliments, and I hope that sheds a little light!
What size are those plates 180mm or 200mm to the fly wheel. I have a 1972. Bought a 1600 single port as the other original double port was seized. however the fly wheel on the new one is 180mm clutch plate. The gear box is the older 1972 style. And the old pressure plate doesn’t fit. It seems it’s a 200mm at least.
These that I have in the video are a 200mm clutch & disk for use with a 200mm flywheel. If I'm interpreting correctly, it sounds like at some point somebody installed the 180mm flywheel on what you call your new engine to run that 1600 in a 6-volt car with a 6-volt starter, as the gear teeth on a 6-volt flywheel/starter is different than that of a 12-volt. We did this same thing in my dad's fiberglass buggy.....when he bought it, it came with a 1966-down swing axle, 1200cc single port with a 180mm flywheel, all of which were still 6-volt. He wanted to install a running 1600 in it, so I think he swapped the 180mm flywheel/clutch over to the 1600 so that it could be turned over by the existing 6-volt system and starter. I suspect that's what happed with this new engine in the past.
I would suggest that you remove that 200mm flywheel/clutch (assuming it's in decent shape) from your seized engine and move it over to your new 1600. That way, you are assured that it will mate to your transaxle and starter. Good luck!
The bug is a 12v system. My thinking is the reco motor which has the 180mm should have a 200mm fly wheel to suit the set up/gearbox. As the old clutch pressure plate we got with the car doesn’t have the retainer in the middle. It’s just open.
Ok well, what about the thickness of the pressure plate and or clutch? I already know I ordered the wrong clutch for my trans, I have an early trans and a 74 engine. But when I tried to bolt up the clutch and all with my engine so I could mate the engine to the trans, the pressure plate had 1/4” of space where it bolts to the flywheel. I have the right clutch on order, I hope, but it doesn’t make sense that the pressure plate wouldn’t bolt to the flywheel.
hmm... I think I understand what you're saying, but let me ask... so are you saying that at the point of contact with all components (pressure-plate/clutch/flywheel) that you still have 1/4" of space and/or bolt thread still to go before tightened up with the flywheel? If that's what you're saying, that should be perfectly normal & and good thing at that. In other words, as you further tighten everything down, that will actually be the pressure plate in it's "clamped state". In fact, as you tighten those bolts, you should see the diaphragm tighten up and close-up somewhat. It's only when the throw-out bearing engages the pressure plate EVEN FURTHER that all those components are "relaxed" to the point of not contacting the flywheel and allowing the clutch pad to float in between. This is all assuming that you have the correct flywheel and clutch components together - (i.e. 200mm, 130 tooth, 12v flywheel, mated to 200mm clutch.... or 180mm, 109 tooth, 6v flywheel, mated to a 180mm clutch). Hope that helps!
Dude, you should examine them thoroughly before you throw them out, they may still be good!
Good video. I think the autostick in 68 had an irs Trans axle.
Thank you sir! Yes it sure did. I’ve never dug into one of those, but would like to down the road.