A Nuanced Discussion About The Legacies Of LeBron and Steph | Tim Legler and JJ Redick
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 พ.ค. 2023
- In this clip, JJ Redick and Tim Legler discuss the legacies of LeBron James (The Los Angeles Lakers) and Stephen Curry (The Golden State Warriors) and where Bron and Steph fit with other greats like Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Kobe Bryant, Larry Bird, Bill Russell, Magic Johnson, Wilt Chamberlain, Shaquille O'Neal and more NBA greats.
Subscribe to The Old Man and The Three podcast w/ JJ Redick (ESPN / First Take) and Tommy Alter TH-cam channel today for more NBA analysis, player interviews and highlights.
#nba #lebronjames #stephencurry - กีฬา
Check out the full pod if you haven't already: th-cam.com/video/sfUXDXHW1Vs/w-d-xo.html
JJ, as a lifetime basketball fan, I truly don’t understand this seemingly unanimous take that Lebron is the 2nd greatest player of all time. He’s clearly an all-timer, but number 2? At this point, I’m not sure he is even higher than steph and steph clearly isn’t number 2 so what the hell is everyone talking about? Furthermore, it’s not even a discussion to me if Steph adds another chip this season (going through lebron once again to do it) so I need someone help me understand this 🤷🏽♂️
Bro took a sun tan💀
They just be talking he had the greatest career in NBA history cut it out 4 in 20 while rigging the game stop it
Mj won 6 in the 90s wat are we talking about
You need to do an entire podcast on what you mentioned towards the end. How Jordan moved. He does move different. He even runs different. And when Pippen went to the Bulls, you can see how he began to move in the same way
Two analysts who listen to each other, talk to each other, understand each other. I wish they had a stable, weekly corner together.
In my head it’s like one of those early 2000s meetings where JJ goes to a corner Diner and he just talks extremely important basketball news while random ppl don’t even pick it up.
Facts
Absolutely. I think it works because they have experience as former players and they're not just speaking on what they have watched. Lol.
That is what a civil conversation looks like. Not being loud and obnoxious this is how educated men talk. Most these talk show people need to take notes💪
show would need a hype man
Awesome to see Legs (who played in MJ's generation) and JJ (who played in Lebron / Curry generation) have such an insightful discussion about the NBA and it's greatest players.
@@universe.factory Ya man, he won the 1996 three point shootout. He was a sharpshooter
@@universe.factory how are you a basketball fan and not know he played
@@R3DST1CK some of these guys don’t even know Barkley played…
Ya at some point age isn't even an excuse, fans know who played, regardless of era.
@@Dr.J42 shut up everyone knows he played every single night he refers to a game he played in. I’ll give ya legs but not chuck 😂
I honestly think JJ knows he has the best basketball podcast lol
gilbert arenas is pretty good too
easily. I'm a draymond fan, but JJ blows him away.
production wise both arenas and Reddick have really good podcast but green is so insightful on top of the fact it's still while he is playing
Thinking Basketball from Ben Taylor is the best basketball podcast in my opinion
@@astromigui agreed. At least the Most knowledgeable for sure
For any soccer/football fans out there, Tim’s take on Steph climbing so many spots in the “all time list” this late in his career reminds me of Luka Modric. In the past 4-5 years he’s went from being a stand out player in his generation to one of the best midfielders of all time if not the best. All within the ages of 33-37. Guys like Steph and Luka are rare, I’m just glad I get to watch while they’re still playing.
damn bro that’s a really good point, as a warriors/madrid fan i have to agree on that. another comparison i always saw was Messi/Jordan - Ronaldo/Lebron
Facts
Feel like thats benzemas career arc too..but id still take iniesta over modric
@@slym9official309nah messi and lebron and pele and jordan
@@yousseflayous824 yeah true i can see that but personally i’d take messi/ronaldo as 1a 1b
This is honestly the best "GOAT" (for lack of a better term) discussion I've heard in a very long, long time. Kudos to this group. Refreshing and intelligent.
@@tylerholt6828 Or that he cant possibly be caught, and hes locked in at two.
If Curry wins three more championships, he obviously has a better career and legacy than Lebron (all else equal). If he beats Lebron this year, Lebron has like a one and five record against curry in the playoffs? Worse,
If Lebron wins a ring with this team, to me thats more impressive than his cleveland championship, or the Heat rings with a super team. And better than any one Jordan ring. By far.
Having a static list for guys still playing makes zero sense.
@@2639theboss The whole GOAT/Top 5-10 is weird. It’s a combination of who someone thinks the better PLAYER is and the legacy that comes with it.
For example, no person who watches basketball would say that Steph is a comparable player (Offensively and Defensively) to the type of players that MJ, Bron are. Coming from a Bron fan, Bron’s defense in recent years has been atrocious. However, he was in the conversation to win DPOY (should have according to many) and MJ outright won it.
Steph is an offensive threat. You don’t worry about him locking anyone down or blocking/altering shots.
So in that way, MJ, Bron, and Kareem will always be above him.
If we’re taking legacies and impact on the game, Steph is up there right next to MJ.
@@2639theboss wrong and way off, Lebron has AD and had Westbrook which made this Lakers team a superteam by definition, and when he couldn’t get it done with that they bailed him out with Russell, Jordan competed against the best and never had to join forces with other allstars, he made the players around him better…something Lebron has never been able to do
@@SportsMediaExposed Jordan did not compete with the best, today's NBA is so much more skilled than MJ's era. JJ even says that the warriors team with KD was better than the Bulls with MJ, you could even argue that the Celtics this year is better. The fact of the matter is that as generations pass, generations become better, that's the advantage of being in the future.
If there was a hypothetical basketball game today, 2023 Celtics vs 1995 Bulls, guess what. Celtics players have watched, studied, learned from the Bulls team while the Bulls back then would have 0 preparation to today's pace, Bulls are getting smoked. You could argue that basketball back then was more physical, and I agree that with that physicality came a more competitive/aggressive mindset, but nowadays you're not guarding someone by being more 'physical', today you have to be skilled with your defense to avoid naturally fouling and on top of that, players are so skilled at drawing fouls that you have to be careful with that too.
Long story short, MJ excelled in his own era, relative to his competition he was easily the goat. And if he was born in todays' NBA he'd probably be even better. But he wasn't. LeBron had to endeavor in a frankly better league and though sure, he doesn't have as many championships as MJ, he still carried wrinky dinky teams to the finals numerous times and still got countless accolades along the way. That's why LeBron is the goat over MJ to me, there's pride in being the best at the sport at the time especially when you don't have much to learn from, example Bill Russell, who has the most rings in history. He paved the way and was the best at the time, and he probably would've been better if he had more people to learn from. But just cause he was goated at the time doesn't mean that he's still the best in history, and that's the same with MJ and with LeBron surpassing him now too.
Also to add, LeBron is a player coach, he genuinely looks out for his teammates, which is something that MJ never did. I don't know where you got the idea that "LeBron has never been able to make his teammates better", while LeBron has always been the epitome of a role model that has inspired countless of his teammates. He's a wholesome family man, carried the hype since he was a kid and never let the fame deter him into a negative path. MJ had a gambling addiction and even fought his teammates, not saying that dude was a hall of fame menace because of that, cause he wasn't, but just to put things into consideration.
@@bristofer Here you go again attempting to tare down Jordan to make Lebron look better, blah blah blah…I’m not getting into it with you and your feelings…Facts are MJ’s Bulls are the greatest team ever…Lebron lost 6 Finals with superteams and JJ is obviously biased towards Lebron…He makes every excuse for Lebron but doesn’t one time mention when Lebron won and how he teamed up with Wade and Bosh, or how the league helped him win in 16…
I love a conversation like this. Even the way he said, it’s MJ for him was fair. It’s so rare too just get a good convo that isn’t nonsense or yelling etc.
That’s why I haven’t watched espn or fox in years…It’s these two guys and Bill Simmons and his crew at the ringer for me
It’s rare *TO, not TOO
Bye tv channels, hello podcasts. That's basically it.
One thing that doesn't get mentioned often with lebron, he is the only player in the top 5 that played with so many different players, teams, coaches, even different eras, while others mostly had a stable dynasty, coaching staff and Play style like jordan, kobe, duncan, curry, bird and to some degree kareem
That's actually easier.. he jumped ship to a better championship ready team every time his own team was about to trend down. The others had to build and grow their teams to that state.
@@hoalanho That is not easier and he is only jumping because he sensed weaknesses in organizations front offices.
@@manemane4735of course it’s easier. It’s hard to keep a team hungry every dynasty eventually falls apart. When you go and play with fresh new hungry players always with 1 or 2 in the top 20 like lebron has that’s easier than dragging the same team over and over. Now if Lebron had joined a team that was so so and he was the only add and all of a sudden they became a championship team maybe you would have an argument
@@manemane4735 Lol its 100% easier. What do you think is easier.. staying on one team, waiting for you team to draft and develop players or to find pieces you can work with OR jumping ship where you have 100% say of what players you want that will efficiently cater around your play style? .....
@@manemane4735definitely easier. Once wade and Bosh started to look washed he jumped ship back to CLE to team up with a prime Kyrie and prime K. Love. While filling the bench with ring chasers signing for vet minimums
He’s top 10 for me if he retired today. What he’s done for basketball, changing the game entirely for everyone on the planet, 4 rings, greatest at putting the ball in the hoop, once in a lifetime player.
Nah bron is the greatest at putting the ball in the hoop. That convo has been ended with his scoring title. Steph the greatest shooter tho.
@@xSilentknifegaming it’s about how you score
Greatest point guard at scoring no doubt.
@@xSilentknifegaming He’s not far from the greatest…It’s a longevity record
@@xSilentknifegamingscoring title? That’s just very good aging
Steph Legacy’s is one of the most complex in history I swear. He can be top 5 or top 15 depending on how you view things
Well he would be the goat if he wins more titles than the pseudo goat lebron during the same era while having a winning record against him and in the finals.
Or more likely the whole lebron goat debate was always fraudulent media propaganda
@@jonz23mthe ring debate is so dumb. Is Tim Duncan better than lebron and curry? Obviously not, curry has had 5 seasons as a top 5 player in the league..lebron has 15-17. There is no debate
@@jonz23m The media's consistent take is that LeBron wasn't the GOAT, but even more... will NEVER be the GOAT. The reason it kept coming up (even just for them to deny it was true) was because what he was doing forced the discussion. As Charles Barkley said around 2010, LeBron will never be the GOAT, but that kid is bigger, stronger and faster than Jordan. Wait... faster? Yes, that's what he said. A 6'9" player at 260 pounds faster than Jordan? That's why even Skip Bayless has always said (he says he has) that LeBron is the greatest driver to the basket, ever. Meaning even over Jordan, obviously.
Whereas NOBODY has ever entertained for one second the idea that Curry might be better than Jordan. Or until right now, that he is conceivably better than LeBron. Which he isn't, and cannot be, according to Legs and JJ.
@@EC160 it's not dumb if they played in the same era. The least you can do as a goat is to dominate an era. I would not call it domination if another player wins more chips than you while being younger & in the same era & with the team he was drafted by.
The thing is that the 5th place in the top 5 could belong to anyone. Other than the 4 goats (russell kareem jordan lebron) you can take anyone in the top15 and make a case for him being top 5. The separation happens between those 4 and the next 11, so dicussing top 5 is pointless imo.
This is how most people, Stephen A included, really think and talk about such things outside entertainment. First Take isn’t serious, it’s Hot Take junk food and mostly fun and light hearted. That’s something that can’t be said of many clones that go too hot chasing attention and cross the line.
The legacies of LeBron and Curry are unique, individually unmatched, and unassailable. Same for say Kareem and MJ or Bird and Magic. Other than when head to head as they are at the moment, one doesn’t have to lose for the other to win.
Legs broke it down the best how the older generations see MJ … pure domination 24/7 from the court to the kiddy pool
Yeah y’all old heads slob on Jordan heavy
And what the younger generation today don't know without watching the tape is that, Jordan didn't hold the ball like James Harden, Russell Westbrook or Lebron James, he played a lot like Steph Curry, a lot of movement off the ball. Sometimes he will call for an iso, but Jordan had so many moves in his bag and offensively he's probably the most complete player, for his on-ball and off-ball scoring ability.
@@zxcvb3772 that might also the reason why retired players say that MJ can easily score a lot points in todays game.
@@zxcvb3772 Kerr was a PG for Phil. He has a lot of his ideas in his coaching, on top of coaching from Pop as well
He also played (and lost) during the most physical era. He dominated (and won) against arguably the weakest collection of talent during the expansion era (the nba twice added teams to the league during Jordan’s heyday). He also played during the intro of the skill era (Grant Hill, Kobe, AI, Ray Allen, KG, etc etc) and he got embarrassed. Everybody pretends it didn’t happen and nobody counts his wizards years, but just look at what LeBron is doing at his age and time of service currently, SMACK DAB in the prime of the most skilled/ talented era ever.
🤷🏽♂️
I think the fact that lebron was fresh out of high school and as raw of a prospect as possible and still flourished from the onset of his career is a testament to just how great of a basketball player he truly is. He didn’t have two or three years or more like most of the other greats on the list (aside from kobe of course but even he struggled at first) to play in college and develop before getting to the NBA.
The chosen one coming out of high school and he lived up to every expectation set
LeBron’s skills get downplayed so much because of his athleticism. When you look at the player he came into the league as versus the player he became, it’s really night and day. Sure the athleticism is still there but his skill set as a basketball player grew like crazy. Gotta have tremendous work ethic to improve as player like that and stay in the league this long, especially at this level.
Kobe, after Shaq, was the second-best player on that team from the time he arrived, and I loved EJ at that time. He struggled most because he was relegated to the bench.
@210TX skill? LeBron is great because athleticism + IQ. Not skill.
@@johngiovanni6045 he has just as much skill as he has IQ and athleticism
Just the ball, a hoop and shoes. then i'll see you in 8 hours. the passion and joy of this man for basketball is what makes him one of the best analyst of this game. i love hearing his perspective on basketball.
The same thing is true with soccer all you need is a ball, some shoes and a wall. That's why it's so accessible for the rest of the world.
I love this conversation. But when people talk about Mt. Rushmore, I lean back to tiers. How do you separate Curry, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Hakeem, Dr. J (including his ABA), Kobe, Wilt, Russell, and Shaq, and other guys I have forgotten? They are all so good, with such unique stories and talents.
Here's one test I've seen, to be considered in the top tier:
At least 4 rings. At least 4 MVPs. And at least 30,000 career points. Getting all three of these is rare, and frankly, getting any of them takes a great player (or someone with some luck in their career like Robert Horry or Derrick Fisher).
All of the names you mentioned fall short of this standard (except maybe Dr. J gets there with his ABA career-- I know he has over 30,000 points in total, but not sure if his titles and MVPs over there level him up or not).
So I think it's fair to see how close this next group got on these same standards. The ones with just 1 MVP are lesser greats, imo, for example. And Larry's 3 titles and 3 MVPs (consecutive! with 3 straight 2nd place votes the immediately prior years, and then 3rd and 2nd the next two years!) show a level of great play that puts him very high up indeed. In fact, when Kareem was naming players who are in the actual GOAT conversation, Bird was among them. 'Larry Bird could do EVERYTHING!,' he said. He also said Wilt and Oscar.
Mount Rushmore is MJ BRON KAREEM AND TIM DUNCAN no debate (tim duncan wins any debate against any other player u put him up against, unless curry gets a 5th)
@@phillipschuman4307 MVP trophy is storyline driven so it shouldnt hold as much value as we seen this year jokic should of won his third but because kendrick brought up race people got uncomfortable and people also got tired of voting for jokic, so JOEL won
@@OMG-si3wn Both Wilt and Russell have a very good case to be above Duncan, imo. It's certainly a debate for both of them. Bird and Magic do as well, and most lists have them ahead of Duncan. I've never seen him in any top 4 of any top 10 list (usually it's some Kobe fan putting Kobe there, which I scoff at).
One of them is best to ever do the most important thing in basketball. Shooting the ball.
As a person who actively watches basketball all my life and love to hear other individuals point of views , this podcast is absolutely brilliant.
Best 15 minutes of sport & history analysis I’ve seen in a while 👏👏
Magic went to 9 Finals in 11 years to start his career. And missed another by a lucky shot from Ralph Sampson. That's like playing an extra 3 seasons. His assists always get overlooked because so much is put in points per game. He averaged over 20 points 10 assists per game.
@@sharifnasser7635 for free? how does that work? Magic was drafted, Kareem was on the Lakers for about 5 years prior, and Worthy was drafted....
They dont really have competition in west at that time plus playing with kaj. Their bare minimum expectation is always finals appearance.
“Lucky shot by Ralph Sampson” the lakers lost in 5 games that series 😂.
@@AR-en6qx It's like Lebron in the East, bare minimum gotta be the finals due to lack of competition. At least Magic won 5.
Magic had a top 3 player of all time. This is like Curry being drafted on a team with LeBron lmao.
Couldn't click fast enough when I saw JJ had Legz on the Podcast again!
JJ Reddick has more basketball knowledge than Skip and SAS combined. Another stellar video, good sirs!
Ive been waiting for a convo like this. Thank you! Never expected to hear it on ESPN, so Im really happy to hear what im hearing.
I love this form of sports commentary. Not click baiting and clout chasing
Legler is one of the best NBA analysts out there right now.
He is so well balanced in his takes and is a true student of the game.
He doesn't flip flop and doesn't make excuses for his favourites.
love Legs, i could listen to the 2 of you do this all day...It's also extra cool that Legs played against those guys and JJ against newer guys
Throw in CJ McCollum too for the current player viewpoint and we’re set for life
Context driven talks and debates are awesome! This podcast is one of the best if you ask me... keep it up JJ!
Two intelligent analyst who have ACTUALLY played in the NBA, with Tim and JJ’s careers spanning 1990 - 2021 when all our modern day goats played. The wisdom and insights these two share from being former players and intelligent, articulate people are unparalleled.
It's crazy how when Legs was talking about not relaxing on defense and all of that at the end of this clip, I was instantly thinking about Steph Curry 😅🙆🏾♂️.
That's why Steve Kerr always say Steph is this generation version of MJ because Jordan was Kerr teammate and he got to witness that and now he see Steph do it in a different way
JJ is fantastic at this. There hasn't been an interview that I didn't like. Props to him.
This 15 min clip was fantastic. Pure hoops and great analysis with reasoning. Kept me engaged the entire time.
JJ i hope you can see the fan love for Legz on the pod. If it’s in his schedule before his college coaching stint soon to come, we’d love to have him
You two are fantastic as a Pod duo.
tim is such a great guy and him and jj have such great discussions
You the goat podcaster, JJ. Carry on
It’s crazy how people see you at the end of your career and quickly forget how dominant you were, the recency bias crazy!
Just hearing all the context and complexities acknowledged when it comes to this discussion is a breath of fresh air. I hope sports media continues heading more in this direction.
They are not media. They are former players.
This is a legendary pod! Never seen legler this locked in before!
People forget how close the 2016 championship was. The whole thing was decided on the last minutes of game 7. You can't just unlegitimize what was accomplished because of a that.
Curry has hit my top 10 as of last season.
This is what sports talks should be ! Not people being biased or trying to push narratives .
JJ is pretty Bias to his era. He is always throwing little jabs in there about Jordan pretending like his giving a complement or knocking something about Jordan’s era or competition. I don’t have any respect for him either when he says nobody could be the durant warriors. Uhm Houston had them down 3 to 2 and then Chris Paul went down for the last two games. Houston might have still be them in game 7 without Chris P if they hadn’t missed 28 threes in a row. How is that the best team ever? That Houston team was nothing special.
Shout out to Tommy rocking the golf hoodie ! Need the Tyler episode asap !
This was refreshing to hear compared to a lot of the mainstream stuff and a lot of youtube analysis videos. They definitely need to have their own show and or for Tim to be a part of this podcast.
Steph is one of the best to ever do it, full stop, period.
Snoop recently said this, "no one wants to call Steph the best until it's time to be the best."
There are 100% people who just will NEVER want to acknowledge that a small, under the rim guard could dominate a league the way Curry does.
Curry simply has one of the biggest impacts on winning in the NBA and he's unprecedented in doing it at this age as a small guard.
He's my favorite of all time. And when it comes to most joyous to watch?
Curry is at the very TOP of that Mount Rushmore.
@@peterdurham5482 yea you are a prime example of what he's talking about. Steph has gotten better since 2015 and 16. He's 35 and playing better than ever. You just dont won't to admit the facts.
@@peterdurham5482 I'm sorry but mj is my goat.
@@peterdurham5482 no problem
@@peterdurham5482 I am a big fan of steph but MJ is my number one goat over anybody
@@andrejohnson4663 the same mj that it was illegal to double team in his career? that mj would get shot out of the gym by curry
This would be a great ESPN segment with these two every week
Hmmm work under ESPN where they will tell you what your own opinions should be or work your own youtube channel and have 100% control... hmmm...
Yes I agree‼️A career & player is two different, exactly some people just don't understand or wanna view basketball‼️
LOVE IT JJ, KEEP IT GOING💪 HUGE FAN SINCE DUKE AND SEEN YOU PLAY IN ORLANDO ‼️🙌💪✌️
Discussion with integrity. This an example of how basketball should be talked about. No gimmick.
I had the pleasure to see MJ live and it was literally like he was walking on air. You could take pickup your beer, take a sip, put it back down all while he was in the air.
I had the pleasure to see Goat James and it was like he was playing against himself, like getting all the points, assist, and rebounds
One of the best discussions I've ever heard on this topic. Is Curry the only one on this list under 6'6 or 6'7?
Yeah
I love you guys together great conversations when you guys get together
JJ I love the way you comment on the games and I would go as far as to say you are thy best commentator on TV!!!! Keep up the good work!
My mount Rushmore is lebron, mj, Kareem and Bill Russell.
Bill had 11 chips in 13 years and the two years he didn't win, he got hurt in the finals with an ankle injury and the other year was the first year that coach Red retired and Bill became a player coach and they lose in the second round to Wilt Chamberlain who goes on to win the NBA Finals. Absolutely incredible.
Really not that incredible they were getting top 7 picks each season cause the league had 12 teams and the league allowed for a worst level of play compared to post merger basketball. His career is irrelevant due to what I just finished typing
@@pandabear1576 Hey everybody Bill Russell's career is irrelevant due to what this guy just finished typing.
@@jackaxelkredell485 it’s irrelevant to the conversation of Mount Rushmore players*. Great player but what guys have done since Kareem entered the league eclipses anything he did.
@@pandabear1576 Many people in Baseball put Babe Ruth in the top X amount of players, most consider him in the Mount Rushmore of Baseball. But when he played there was only 16 teams and there were no black players in his league. You can't just remove what happened before Kareem because it isn't like today. If in 20 years, the NBA has 40 teams, are they just going to start removing Kareem and Jordan for the simple fact that they played with 10-15 less teams???? Players can't control the era they played in, they can simply play in their era and should get judged on that, and not comparing them to different eras.
@@pandabear1576 how does less teams make those teams weaker? The opposite actually happens: more teams dilutes the talent pool and makes it easier for a strong team to dominate
Interesting discussion between the two eloquent and cerebral players. Steph should be in top 5 not just for all the Stats/accolades, but also transformed Basketball game (not just NBA) on its head for ever.
Transforming the game has nothing to do with the top-5 list.
You have to add Lebron all time in assists, rebounds, steals.. minutes played. His dominance in the east. The teams he brought to the finals. The teams he played against. So much to go into it.
Reminds me of when ESPN was really about analysis of the game, being objective, the X’s & O’s. I could listen to them talk hoops for hours without getting bored. You love to see it!!
What people ognore is that curry as historically great the year before they won the title. But people only pay attention to your win.
I will say for my Mt Rushmore conversation includes everything you mentioned in addition to how they impacted the game and the culture on / off the court. For me I would end up giving Kobe or Curry the nod for the 4th spot.
Curry is not in the conversation unless he wins a ring this year. 4 rings isn't enough to be in that elite tier. That's why shaq and Wilt aren't there for me. Duncan, kobe, magic with 5 rings each plus everything they've done on and off the court would put them in those conversations. Steph with a 5th ring would be right in that convo as well
@@MrE_ doesn't lebron only have 4?
@@bartbart3832 but he’s the leage all time scorer and is top 10 in assist and rebounds 😂🤔🤡 big difference kid
@@devontacosby8593 and curry all time 3 point goat who changed the game forever 😂🤔🤡 big difference kid
@@adityaekka3409 that’s nothing compared to being the leage all time scorer and top 10 in assist and rebounds
JJ I loved you in Orlando, but I love your podcast even more. You guys really take the time to give all the information and not just live off of click bait and tired takes
I love that in basketball… no matter how old or young the players are.. current or former… they have a respect about the game and knowledge of the game that allows for conversations like this despite the age gap
Not all of them. Some are really petty.
From a career perspective hard to ignore all of Bill Russell’s rings. No one close
Mt Rushmore
MJ (Greatest Player)
KAREEM (Greatest Basketball Resume)
STEPH (Greatest Shooter)
LEBRON (Greatest All Around Player)
Facts
Straight facts
Nah man, Kobe is the greatest all around player.
Lebron can’t play defense like Kobe. Kobe is a better all around offensive threat as well. Kobe’s footwork was on a different planet
I'd replace steph with Shaq (most dominant player)
The Best Mt. Rushmore I've seen. 💯
god i love legs, him and jj are by far the best analysts rn.
Wow. This is sooo much better than ESPN/First Take
What JJ said about Jordan is what I seen watching film of him. He moved and played at a different level.
Very quick, and totally relentless, with unparalleled athletic gifts in his era (for his position, and also, overall).
But Isiah Thomas broke it down this way. He said Jordan didn't have great handles, especially going to his left. If he was going left, after a few dribbles, he'd pick up his dribble. So for years, the play book on Jordan was to push him left.
@@phillipschuman4307 Isiah is a hater who hates MJ. All other great players even said MJ didn't have weakness. Any words coming from Isiah Thomas about MJ that is negative should go out the other ear lol😂
@@vh2712 It is true though, Jordan was very right hand dominant. Jordan is the greatest but he had a few aspects of his game that he was just good at, just like every other player in NBA history. It's just what Jordan was great at he was incredibly great at.
@@vh2712 we can critique Jordan relax
Looks like we got a new co host 😮 🎉
These 2 need a show ASAP.
This is easily the best discussion of this topic I've ever heard.
What legs said about Jordan sounds a lot like how curry is guarded today
Go dubs. Thanks for the quality content
Probably the most honest, balanced, non bias opinions on this convo eve
MORE OF THIS! This is passionate, real, smart basketball talk. It's positive, it's highlighting positives. Great basketball marketing here, love to watch much more.
Not that real or smart talk.
Always a pleasure to hear from Tim Legler. Class!
This a very refreshing conversation on the goat debate. These fellas played the game to the highest level and had 10+ season careers. Very great conversation from tim and jj. One of the best podcast’s out there
Wouldn't call something refreshing, what I've heard from a dozen other TV-personalities.
More Tim legler this is amazing stuff
You guys need to get bron on the show. His basketball knowledge is incredible and the conversation would be incredible. Hopefully one day it can happen
I think it's LESS compelling that LeBron did it in 3 different places. Any team can burn up their future to get some assets to pair with LeBron for a short run. Then he leaves that franchise after they all get the hardware they are looking for and finds a different ready made scenario. Making one franchise sustainably great, to me is more impressive in this era.
Strongly agree with this. Great take.
That's why I think the Steph/Warriors dynasty is really compelling. In the player empowerment era where players move on a dime, with stiff luxury taxes, egos etc that team core has stayed together and been to 6 finals in 8 years winning 4, with being a basket away from another in 16. Really incredible stuff. Lebron I agree is #2 ever but he's never built something like that. He's always trying to mess with stuff. Retool at every trade deadline. Move around. Etc
I have to disagree, we've seen a fair share of superstars team up or teams rebuilt around players fail in this era where the individual has a lot of power of where they land (hell, even the big three lakers with westbrook failed). To win 3 championships with 3 different teams, all making a minimum 2 finals appearances, is quite compelling. It's hard to say how many players could do that and find success.
@@codybennett6463 Disagree. We've also seen a fair share of players try to do it in one place. Relatively recently, Lillard, Jokic, Booker, Doncic, Embiid, and Morant have had mvp level seasons but failed to win even a single title. Several teams have worked the superteam angle successfully: Raptors won a title after getting Kawhi, Bucks after landing Holiday and of course LeBron did it in Miami and LA. (Btw, he doesn't have a 'minimum' of 2 finals appearances in LA.)
But NOBODY, other than Steph and Co, has stayed in one place and created a dynasty since Tim Duncan retired. You're welcome to be more impressed by LeBron's superteam approach, we each favor our own opinion, but your logic is not exactly bulletproof.
@@markfritzel5993we’ve also seen those same players you mentioned have a PROPERLY RAN FRANCHISE hellbent on drafting and surrounding Giannis and Jokic with all star level talent. When the hell did Cleveland do anything remotely close to that for Lebron’s first tenure? Y’all miss too much context when you make these arguments
Tim Legler is the man
JJ with the quality content, as always.
Do anyone know the brand of those hoodies?
Ps. Tom ledger is one of the best perspective on sports and JJ is fantastic, really love the inside perspective of an elite work ethic player transitioning to a professional journalist, this sport would truly benefits with more takes like this two guys. It elevates and educates the audience 👏🏻
Steph and Clay changed the league into 3pt shooting
As a warriors fan I actually hate that we got KD. Or really the discussion that will always be around it. Steph will never get the credit he truly deserves bc in his prime he teamed up with a top 3 guy after getting embarrassed on the biggest stage. July 4, 2016 after the initial shock went away the nba fan in me went “nahhhh man idk about all this”
facts. i think this Bron vs Steph argument would be way more clear right now in 2023 if KD hadn't joined GS and just let Steph and Bron go at it in the finals in 2017 and 2018 (assuming they got there, which I think they would have)
Don’t be mad about KD being on the team! Fight back! They let Bron form multiple superteams. Anyone with a brain knows that even when KD was on the team the most important player on the floor for the warriors was Steph. KD literally said he’s never been that open in his life and the data/film breakdown shows Curry was doubled more then any player on the floor the entire two championship runs with KD and Curry was directly responsible for over 60% of KDs buckets.
You’re not a real warriors fan then. KD helped us win 2 rings in dominant fashion. Those banners cement history. No one is going to care about the context of KD’s move in 50 years
@@jeffhardy6333 no one outside of GSW gives u guys any credit for those, alot of people still look at KD as a guy who hasnt won one yet
@@Ellis1993 the 17 warriors are arguably the best team even Bron never had a team that good 😂. Yeah obviously Steph was the most important player but KD was the #1 option. The last two mvps teamed up in their prime and played amazing basketball and I absolutely loved it. But at the same time I can still recognize that it was so unbalanced and understand why people downplay those rings.
Great GREAT podcast.
This convo seemed so much reasonable when they are having as opposed to when SAS was trying to have it lol
Curry being near the Mount Rushmore is crazy
Not really
Not really I expected it
How so??
It’s not crazy considering Magic was Mount Rushmore worthy and Steph is on his heels. People had Kareem on their Mount Rushmore and some ppl have Magic above Kareem so by extension you can argue if Steph passes Magic he also passes Kareem
@@RecapRico steph is not on his heels. Not even close.
Lol Reddick talks out of both sides of his mouth when talking lebron. Goes into a rant giving "context" for his losses. Yet when talking about Winning championships even with other teams injury a win is a win with no context? Lebron losing in 11 and 14 alone are knocks on his legacy when comparing him to the best of the best because of how he lost them. They talk about Jordan being on team with top 50 player in the same place as not being as impressive as Lebron winning in multiple places. Yet ignore Lebron losing with Wade a Top 50 player and Bosh a HF player multiple times.
Facts, he’s so biased it’s ridiculous
Its only 2011 thats a true black mark. No excuses there and for me that locks him in at #2, not only because he lost to a worse team, but because of his performance during the key games and getting outplayed by Dirk (and Wade) throughout the series. But in 2014 finals Lebron avg 28/8/4 while Wade and Bosh combined for 29/9/4 and no one else avg double figures. Lebron was the best player on the court that series, but his help, especially Wade, didn't show up. Wade was pretty cooked by that point, which is why Lebron upgraded to Kyrie after this series.
@@kevinjohnson4498 Numbers don't mean anything when you lose by the record margin in finals history, like Miami did to San Antonio in 2014.
@@domagojhrgovic7419 Yea the Spurs were a vastly superior team. That Heat bench was atrocious. Their 4th best player was 38yo Ray Allen and 35yo Rashard Lewis played significant minutes. Lebron was the best player in the series, but Parker, Kawhi, Manu, and Duncan were all better than Wade or Bosh this series.
@@domagojhrgovic7419Basketball is a team game. The Spurs were the better team, other than LeBron, no one on the Heat showed up. That's why people don't blame him for what happened in 2007 and 2018
The two best in the game. Thank you JJ & Tim
Definitely the best Mt. Rushmore conversation I've heard.
Bill Russell - 11 championships in 13 NBA seasons. 2 NCAA championships.
There was only nine teams? Russell can’t be top 10!
Russell Kareem Jordan Lebron should be the unanimous mount rashmore. Kareem is the only one that's a bit more debatable, but the other 3 completely dominated their era, specially Russell.
Imagine the concentration of talent Russell had to deal with!
Curry career as a whole has put him in the Mount Rushmore discussion. Not just this past year.
KD came and won the finals mvps in 2 of the 4 chips vs lebron
He’s nowhere near a top 4 player of all time. Not even a top 4 current player or top 4 guard.
@@brendanbloom3366 your first statement was believable but your next 2 just ruined any chance of credibility
Curry should’ve gotten the second mvp over KD. Would’ve gotten the mvp in the Toronto series if it weren’t for injuries. And he probably deserved it over iggy, iggy got it because he guarded bron and he was the best player on the floor
@@titoriano1
Well he didnt
I would watch these two everyday.
In my opinion, you can put an asterisk on a series only in the context that you’re comparing which team is better. But as far as the outcome it is what it is, that’s playoff basketball, no asterisks. Every series has its ups and downs and crazy stories
The Kobe disrespect is INSANE 💯
Absolutely!!! Crazy how Kobe is considered the closet to MJ yet gets left out the goat discussion. Makes no sense to me!
Cultural icons tend to be overrated, the prime example being AI. Kobe is great and for sure a top 10-15 player, but he wasn't as good offensively as other greats (Magic, Bird, Curry, Jordan, Bron, Kareem, Shaq, West), and obviously neither on defense (most goats on defense being centers).
@@damien9056 Kobe was a stud on both ends and a winner, but offensively he was a classic volume scorer. Just saying...
People didn’t love Kobe when he played. They loved him when he died. That’s sad.
Think of who's on Mt. Rushmore: Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, and Teddy Roosevelt...you can argue they're not the best presidents (FDR, Adams, Kennedy etc can be argued) so they're on Mt. Rushmore bc of their impacts on our nation...Mt Rushmore of the NBA should be based on impacts and 5 ppl stick above all others. I'm sticking 2 names together bc they're practically inseparable, Magic and Bird, Jordan, LeBron, Curry. Think of who had more impact on the NBA game, culture, and perception around the world. Kareem, Kobe, Dr. J, Shaq, Russell, and Chamberlain are all important but not on the same level... Kobe would be the closest bc of social media
Dam 💯
One of the best clips out there. Straight facts
Great convo. Insightful
MJ, Bill Russell, LeBron, Kareem is Mount Rushmore
If you have Kareem top 3, you should have Russell too. Kareem was a rookie the year after Russell's 11th championship. Kareem gets props for being the best college player of all time. He was dominating college from '66-69, while Russell and Chamberlain were still in their primes and competing for championships. Kareem played against Wilt for the same amount of time that LeBron was on the Heat. Russell is not that far away to the point he should be dismissed entirely. Russell has 5 MVPs, 11 NBA championships, 2 NCAA titles, a gold medal, and the finals MVP is named in his honor
I agree, Bill had the perfect career and I doubt anyone will ever come close. It's easy in hindsight to criticize his game because of how limited he was offensively, but why would you change your game when your team is winning every single year? Isn't that the goal?
Fair point, except for Russell usually being on 2nd team all-NBA (with Wilt getting 1st team).
@@phillipschuman4307 sportwriters and broadcasters voted for all-nba teams but the players voted for MVP. That's why Russell was 2nd team for 3 of his 5 MVPs. Real players knew who the best was, while everyone else was infatuated with Wilt's stats. Russell wasn't well liked by the media either, which could've also skewed votes in Wilt's favor. Wilt, Jerry, Oscar, Elgin, and every other player from that era acknowledge that Russell was the best
People do everything possible to keep Steph off Mt. Rushmore.
He doesn't have enough
They sure do, and the man ain't even finished! Every game he plays he's displacing a record holder.
@@sixasofar2961
Like who?
The argument is that Steph’s system is so good that he doesn’t need to shine that bright and his team would still be decent , but during some moments where they needed curry to show he didn’t. And we’re not talking about game 7 warriors kings, when they needed curry during game 7 of the 2016 finals. Or 2017 or 2018 it was Kd facing the big lights , not discrediting curry at all.
But he needs more to show , it’s obvious from a personal standpoint that the warriors system is amazing and might even multiply curry’s success.
But you have to give props to Lebron winning rings in 3 different teams as the man is unheard of. If he wins one more the debate is so much closer to Mj compared to curry’s career.
The only way for curry to show for it , is to either sweep the playoffs and average 30 or 35 and score in the clutch to be on Rushmore.
@@dparks2856 JJ and Tim has yet to explore the area where I think it's kinda what makes this discussion with Steph's climb as an all-timer is hella interesting tho. It is the very possibility that he might get let's say 2 more rings that'll put him equal to MJ's amount of rings. Bcos ppl can clearly see that he's still very well in his prime despite his age. And even some (if not lots of them) ppl considers these last 3 yrs of him after his pause in that bubble season as the best version of himself. The sort of possibility that he might get to that point is what should be the drive of the discussion regarding Steph's legacy in particular bcos he doesn't seem to slow down and is arguably even better than he ever was 😂
So let's say he really ends up with 6 rings while doing the 3-peat (ofc by positively assuming he's winning it this yr), with one of them rings he did it as a 6th seed (the only feat that only Hakeem managed to do). It can create some havoc in this so called locked list I think *if* that happens while it kinda guarantees him as one of the top 5 players all-time 🤷♂️
Thanx for comparing player vs career for once. Major distinction I make when talking goat players
Leg's.. always on point 👍
Great analysis..
Talks real Bball..
Respect JJ
I love Kobe but let’s be honest people were debating if he was even in the top 10 before he passed away and now he’s arguably on the Mount Rushmore?
Who the hell was debating if he was a top ten player all time? Kobe’s arguable the Greatest basketball player to ever play the game!
@@Ellis1993 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Not a chance in hell, try again. Not greater than Shaq not greater than magic nowhere near lebron.
Kobe top 10 though
So if LeBron would have gone to college he could have potentially went to Duke in 2003 and played with JJ Reddick and Jason Williams
Great work JJ. Great episode.