These are copies, not counterfeits. The point with counterfeits is that they can pass for and be sold as the original item, down to the branding and whatnot, and there's intentional deception involved. These are just knock offs of the designs, that are clearly sold as such. As for the ethics of that, eh, the copies can almost never really compete with the opriginals and they serve very different markets so I'm kinda meh on the issue. Like hardly anyone who would ever seriously consider buying a $100+ Spyderco is going to be swayed into buying a $20 copy.
Yeah, that's kind of a weird exception, especially since the Spyderco Bryd line is basically already an official line of Chinese knockoffs (the Meadowlark for example is clearly a knockoff Spyderco Delica). It's pretty obvious that Spyderco did that specifically to combat this sort of thing. But with that one major exception, generally my point still stands.
Well, I owned two Delicas (lost both) and the next one will be a copy. I can fully understand the ethical issue, but I'm curious about what I'd get for the money. I hate counterfeits but copies are so-so.
the difference is that a counterfeit is pretending to be the other item(the spyderco knife in this case). So it would literally say spyderco on the knife and it would be completly the same. A copy does only copy the design but does not claim to be from the other manufacturer.
People assume branded knifes cost a lot more in scale to materials/production because of the brand name - but if you think about it more, as I did, you realise that A) Those companies hire a designer to design a knife B) Marketing team does studies both before and after it's been conceptualised C) Their quality control is more strict, so the tooling/materials/workers are payed more D) They have customer support, even if it's 1 person that'll respond to your email inquiry E) They need a PR department to broaden their reach and market their product What does counterfeit do? It skips all the steps. It does not need any PR, needs some quality control but it's even expected to perform worse than original - and the original is doing all the marketing for it. If you ever look at an expensive product, you'll always check alternative places to buy it from (cheaper), and always stumble upon cheaper brands/fakes (You looked at Sony phone but Huawei is much cheaper but with same specs, something like that) I'm really proud of Skall for stopping with fakes promotion - as for all of us, buying fakes isn't doing a bad deed - it's capitalism, if a company wants to make its money, it patents, fights with lawyers, etc. This is consumer market, we're not supposed to defend someone else's profit.
On the first one, I would call it a rip off if it wasn't for one issue: That is literally the design of "cheap $5 throwaway knife." You can go to almost any gas station, Walmart, dollar store, etc. in America and pick one up that's nearly identical for 5 bucks or less, and it's been that way for well over a decade. That design isn't special or unique in any way. In fact, looking on their Amazon page, even Spyderco makes other knives that look nearly identical. As for the second, Benchmade never trademarked the term "axial lock," and their patent expired. They cheap company legally did literally nothing wrong on that one.
Your Sony/Huawei comparison does not make any sense. It's cheaper, but it's not fake, it's not a copy. Yes, it has same specs, but so does every other flagship - Snapdragon 835 with Adreno 540 graphics. Galaxy S8/S8 plus/Note8 have it, Oneplus 5 and 5t have it, Asus Zenfone 4 Pro has it, HTC U11 has it, Google Pixel 2 and Pixel 2 XL have it, as well as Xperia XZ Premium, Xiaomi Mi 6, LG V30, ZTE Nubia Z17, Nokia 8, Motorola Moto Z2 Force, Xperia XZ1 & XZ1 Compact, Xiaomi Mi Mix 2, Razer Phone and so on and so forth. You're right about the steps, but your comparison does not make any sense.
Also - a lot designs are just as JakeSnake07 says - they're generic, and if you want to do something other, there's already something that looks similarly.
Your smartphone comparison is a pretty weak example, that's like saying that laptops with the very similar specs as "THE one laptop" are ripoffs of said laptop, in that case everyone would be ripoffs of one another for everything.
@Chrly Ray - not exactly. The really cheap fakes are as you say. But not Ganzo. And not Sanrenmu. And there are other brands that do that. Quality control does not exist in total counterfeits that copy even the name of the brand. In the case of knives that copy the design, but use their own name, they have quality control, and it's often not that far off from the expensive brands. Ganzo has developed a name for themselves as a manufacturer of cheap but good knives, so they have to maintain or increase their quality control.
Well, I'm all for original design and against counterfeints. But these days many western companies moved their manufacturing to China or other Asian countries because it's cheaper there. But did they lower their prices accordingly? No, prices are higher than ever. So they sell Chinese stuff as their own for double to ten times the actual price and then they complain when the Chinese sell the same stuff without the logo at affordable prices. Can't say I feel much pity for them. There are however companies like Extrema Ratio that make their knives domestically and have to pay higher wages and taxes and I wouldn't buy an ER rip off, because they provide jobs and pay taxes.
Exactly. Companies exploiting cheap labor, and keeping the extra profit for themselves. If someone is going to buy a made in china knife, why not go for the cheaper option?
Exactly guys. Can't expect brand loyalty from consumers when some companies are whoring their brands and designs all over the place. I'd rather buy a Chinese ripoff for much cheaper, than a made-in-china original design, too.
@Jon Anderson: I just went to amzn.to/2qDNXz1 and that particular Spyderco knife seems to be made in China, according to customer Q&A. I don't know about the rest of them, but... I doubt that suddenly most of American companies manufacture their stuff in USA, you know, as opposed to countries with 4 times cheaper labor like India or China, or Mexico. Must be Trump's reforms, or something. [
Benchmade can neither condone or condemn Ganzo using their axis lock deign, as the patent is expired. Anybody can use this design feature now. Where they may have a legitimate gripe is if the term "axis lock" is being used and if it is a trademarked term by Benchmade which would not have expired yet.
they can also, if the design of the knife in it's entirety is trademarked or falls under the copyright (I'm unsure about the US-situation here, not from the states). And these Ganzo knifes are blatant design-copies. No effort made.
They're not blatant copies. They're similar, but not 1:1 copies. Also - copyrights are only legaly binding in places where the patent was placed. US patent has no impact in China or Taiwan, or even Europe. If they want to be protected, then they'd have to file copyright patents in those other countries. But if for example Ganzo makes a knife that's protected under US law, then they can't sell it in the US, but they can everywhere else. Also - if the term "axis lock" is only used by gearbest and not Ganzo themselves - then that's gearbest's problem, not Ganzo's.
rubbers3 And that is how the vast majority of Chinese patents came into being. Seriously. I understand that it’s actually quite a problem for foreign companies looking to access the Chinese market. Some Chinese company will have already copied the design and filed a patent in China, so the original company can’t do anything about it, because the CCP doesn’t care who came up with the idea first. A small, basically unknown Chinese company tried to sue Apple for copying THEIR phone designs, and almost certainly would have won if the company hadn’t gone bankrupt before the trial could take place.
They can certainly condone or condemn it, they're allowed to have an opinion on others copying their designs. The difference is that if the patent's expired it's an opinion; if it's not it's a lawsuit.
+Sareth Not applicable. KAI/Kershaw wasn't able to sue Microtech for their deliberate rip-off of the 0777 with their Microtech "Matrix." Spyderco lost their court case against Benchmade for their use of the opening hole. American intellectual property law does not cover that under knives. Why? Because if it did, companies could sue one another at the turn of a hat for having designs a little "too similar" to theirs. it would be a legal shitshow. Also, these are not blatant copies. Having had Ganzo "AXIS" lock designs, I can tell you right now that the internals are VERY different and no where near as well-designed and made as Benchmade's. Again, this is why intellectual property laws don't get this ridiculous. Just because they look similar at a cursory glance doesn't mean they are similar enough to be considered infringement. Think of it with firearms development, as well. How many designs are similar to one another today? How many rifles out there borrow from the AR18's operating system? How many use striker-fired designs? Pretty much every design on the market could be sued by another manufacturer if the laws were like that, because all are very similar at first glance. Thankfully, the laws don't work like that. We already have enough frivolous lawsuits.
I have no problem with knock offs, but I do with counterfeits. Don't put someone else's name on your stuff. Own that you made it. After that it's not rocket science, it's not like there is a lot of R&D going on here. It's mostly just marketing.
Exactly. Putting someone's name is lying about the product features therefore it is not a valid contract. Intellectual property is not based on anything. Property rights are important because of scarcity, whilst one cannot own ideas for himself, and they are not scarce. Using the logic we can't use someone else's mind, we should be back in the stone age cause one guy blocks others from using the idea of a wheel. Patent time is purely arbitrary and again has no logical grouding.
david burrus There’s huge variety in knife design depending on what you want it for. Selecting the correct one can get pretty nuanced. We’re not talking about choosing a new kitchen knife here
david burrus thank you for your invaluable input, you have for sure provided plenty of useful information which will benefit every single one of the members of this community. Your contribution was not only necessary, but indispensable. Well done.
david burrus ...you do realize the heights of dumbass your comment has reached right? You are basically saying, if you want to learn about something, fuck off if you just don't know it.
The price of the original version of the last knife is just ridiculous. I understand that designing a product cost money, but it's just a knife, not a car. They have to be more competitive with their pricing.
@@Dinjur If they have a good production line in a small shop, that knife probably doesn't cost more than 20 to 30 bucks for labor and materials. If it's factory made, like 5 to 10 bucks? To put it more in perspective, it's also the same price as getting a Tod Cutler dagger - famous company, high quality blades, hand crafted
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't counterfeits supposed to exactly copy knives down to the logo? It seems to me that a lot of ganzo knives do steal the ergonomics but they do not pretend to ride the reputation or quality control standards of another brand. While I can understand being unhappy with designing copying, to me I view it the same way I'd view generic soda. I very well know that the generic cola at the store is ripping off the flavor of Coke, but millions buy it without batting an eye. So I guess the best comparison I'd make with these knives is that they're closer to a generic brand than a straight up counterfeit.
Matthew Showler The problem with things like knives are the designs themselves are copyrighted, or even further some brands (benchmade) have designer knives which could very well be protected through the same laws that govern art. While the word counterfeit may not be the correct one to use, many of the same laws concerning counterfeits would apply without licencing. Hope that helped
IgnorantGravity I see. That is a bit morally dishonest then and I understand why many take issue with knives of this type. Personally I will admit I buy actual counterfeits of knives like cold steel and microtech. So these knives don't even seem that problematic to me from my point of view.
I don't think copyright law is applicable here. But there is such a thing as a protected "industrial design right". It's quite similar to a patent and would generally cover the protection against "counterfeits" as seen in this video. The question is, are the authors of the original designs aware of these protection mechanisms and are these being used? If no industrial design right is registered, then there is nothing wrong with "counterfeiting" in such a manner (other than from a purely ethical point of view).
I believe it should take a lot design differences for a knife design to be patented. knife blades of all shapes, and handles have been around for centuries it's almost public domain. I understand designs like otf knives could be patented because of mechanical parts, but a pointed piece of sharpened metal? did spyderco buy rights from the guy who invented the lock back they use on their knives, what about the guy who invented serrations? or the guy who invented the first folder, or the guy who invented the thumb stud? I know those guys may not be known but unless it has their logo and claims to be theirs I don't really have a problem. I may be wrong but that is how i currently see it, because without public domain of certain designs nothing would have been improved upon.
Chrly Ray I have to really disagree with that. The quality control on these ganzo/sanrenmu/enline knives are impressive. And heat treatment is spot on. The only difference is they use different steel grades that are lower end compared to their contemporaries. It's unfair to compare Spyderco's S30V to ganzo's 440C. They are apples and oranges.
Calling ganzo knives counterfeit is doing them a disservice imo, they definitely aren’t counterfeits. They are not trying to fool consumers into thinking they are real spydercos and benchmades. They are even starting to move into the direction of producing their own designs. They are good for the money, even awesome for the money. Their axis lock is actually smoother than the Benchmade axis lock, at least after cleaning the China out and doing a little tuning on the omega springs. Fine knives for under $20. I’m starting to really like some of the original stuff coming out of China, like Real Steel and a couple of others. Original designs with quality build and materials at higher prices than ganzo but still very affordable.
I understand your anger over it, but Skall... I hate to say it but if a patent is expired it's expired. There's nothing legally wrong here unless they have the term "axis lock" copyrighted.
Yeah. I have to agree. It's like refusing to use a telephone that was made by someone other than Alexander Bell, or to fly in an airplane not made by the Wright Brothers. Or, for that matter, refusing to drink Cola other than Coke. The whole point of a patent, the very *basis* of the principle, is that they expire. Period. They are meant to give the inventor a limited, finite, time in which they have the exclusive right to sell an invention, before it becomes subject to the free market. It benefits all of mankind that patents do expire; it's what drives market competition as well as allows for the wider circulation and access to important new inventions. Saying it's scummy is basically saying that the corporation that invents something should be able to control the price, and to control access to their invention, for all of time, regardless of the impact that has on the market or the customer. That's not even capitalism, it's actually socialism, a form of socialism that benefits the rich rather than the poor! If you think it's bad to copy an expired patent, then you are saying that you want to live in a world where there is only one brand of gasoline, only one brand of car, only one brand of firearm, and only one brand of any drug, to give a few examples. It would be a total dystopian society, somewhat like the USSR except instead of the state, it would be private monopolies, who are subsidized and protected BY the state.
I think most people care about value. What do you get for the money you spend. If a Counterfeit knife is almost as good as the real deal but cost half the price then why would you choose the real one? I don't like when they charge alot of money for the brand. I only care about quality for the money. If its twice the price i expect it to be twice as good.
ye,its funny when businesses get on the other side of capitalism they start whining about "fairness" and "ethics" like other people said this thing help Europe market caus US companies have either extreme prices or stuff arent just being sold..... chinese with their trade agreements can get their stuff there much easier.
+Wotan The first knife is a cheap design that's been around for well over a decade, and can be bought for a 2-5 USD at most gas stations and Walmarts in America. the second uses a lock design that is no longer patented and calls it a name that's never been trademarked. Literally nothing here has been "stolen."
@Wōtan That's a good question, Why should I care about intellectual property that isn't even mine to begin with? why should i care about a product that was not made by me in the first place? why???
Produce what of quality? As the guy before me said, there is nothing to actually steal in the desighn, it is to old and generic for that. And If I ever end up selling stuff at 150% price just because it has my name on it, then yes, people should go and buy other options.
Why are the bench made and spiderco knives so expensive? Being a hobby knife maker myself I don't self my knives that take me many hours for 200 dollars. Personally I don't see the appeal because steel quality even on cheap knives is often very good nowadays so your really only paying for the name while they cash in on their mass produced knives that cost them nothing to make. Just my opinion.
It is mostly the name. Same reason why custom knives from certain makers get so expensive. It's also partually design. If you like the Spyderco look and you want it, then you will have to pay their price.
TheInfiniteLoop A thing you forget is the cost of developing designs, advertising, mechanisms and testing the look. I would say that they first use their patents to design it virtually which takes time, then they show it to normal potential customers to see if the design is accepted (if not they have to redo it over and over until a majority likes it) then they start advertising and produce up to their standards. That all costs money and while the name probably is responsible for some of the costs its not going to be the majority. Faker knifes circumvent all that cost by just taking the finished product and profiting off the reputation/advertisement of the original. Because people who cant afford the expensive one will end up buying the fakes on them.
Thatslifebro fair enough, but idk if that makes them worth 200 dollars. Once you have the machinery you have the machinery if anything the cost of your knife should go down because of how much more efficient you are at making them. This is of course after you pay of the initial investment.
and thats a good thing. Imagine the patent on push button telephones would still be valid for example. Either one company would have a monopoly on telephones(or they get a lot of royalties from other companies) or we would still be using rotary dial phones. Almost all technologies we use on a daily basis were patented at one point, its quite a good thing that those run out.
If the patent of the lock system has expired and the term "Axis Lock" is not trademarked by the original company that created it, it's free game. I would be far more concerned with the general mimicry of designs, like the first two knives you compared to each other. It's basically the same deal as with pirate products like Nuke or Adidos shoes or clothing; they're cashing in on looking like a brand product, but you often don't get any assurance of actual quality in terms of materials or construction. The problem of this is that if I have a choice between a brand knife that costs a lot, and a non-brand knife of equal quality that costs less, I would probably choose the cheaper knife. I mean I've never been interested in having "brand products" just because of the brand itself; if it does the job and look fine, I'm happy with it. But if it's obvious that the cheaper knife is trying to sell itself by imitating a brand knife design, then I can't really know if the "counterfeit" knife is any good (re: steel quality and constcution), or if it's just trying to sell itself by looking like a brand product. So I'm actually more insulted by the fact that companies that are apparently perfectly capable of making decent knives still choose to mimic the designs of knives from well known brands. I mean, don't they have any pride in their own work? Or are they just so cheap they don't want to hire a competent designer and make their own patterns?
This is my feeling as well. If they can make a good knife then they should be able to hire a designer to make something new. This is just lazy and annoying. With this they are just exploiting on the marketing and development work of the original company. Usually the original design companies are the ones that have made all the non-successful models and then when they get something right they have to pay off all the trial and error. This is why "second to market" stuff sometimes really sucks. Good balanced video again from Skallagrim in my opinion. The difference comes from the fact that he is reviewing and causing people to buy these things so even if he himself would like to buy these knives it makes sense to avoid reviewing them.
It's not like with "Adidos", cause they use their own name that's not even slightly similar to other, well known brands. They're ripping of the design, but they change it and use their own name both of the brand and of the knife. You're right, that when a knife is copying other knife's design, then you can't be sure of the quality. However, Ganzo has made a name for themselves already, by making good quality knives for a low price, so they can't allow themselves to have low quality.
Counterfeits are great alternatives for people who like the original designs but think spending $200 on a knife is silly. Especially when the branded knives aren't even functionally any better, but cost 20 times as much.
Almus Quotch you don't get the same experience with an counterfeit knife. Youre buying mystery steel that has questionable edge retention. Just look at Cedric & Ada's testing. Cheap Chinese knife steel like 8cr13mov only lasted 39 cuts vs decent steel like 154cm lasted 124 cuts that's 3 times better edge performance than a knock off could be.
Most knock off brads do label their steel, Ganzo mostly uses 440c. In regards to edge retention it's misleading to suggest a high end steel is three times better than a budget steel; edge retention test only reflect the hardness of a steel but doesn't reflect toughness or ease of sharpening which are directly inverse to hardness. So a harder steel is also more brittle and difficult to sharpen. Making an extremely hard knife edge is easy and can be done relatively cheaply, like on saw teeth. In theory you could make an untempered knife blade out of very high carbon steel that would massively outperform any super steel in edge retention tests, at a fraction of the price; but that would make for an extremely brittle blade that was almost impossible to sharpen when it did get dull. Blades made out of tungsten carbide or flint could also achieve this. My point is that high end steel are not objectively better than budget steels. You should look into which better suits your personal use and sharpening habits and not mindlessly buy into marketing hype designed to sell overpriced man jewelry to impressionable idiots with no understanding of materiel science.
touofthehighplains But you're also paying mystery steel prices. You can get plenty of cheap knives in 8cr13mov or equivalent for $20, the same price as most of these clones. I mean hell, lots of CRKT knives cost $50 or more and have 8cr13mov. Unfortunately, competition is a thing. If you choose to design a knife and charge $700 for it and China can reproduce it for 5% of the price, people are going to consider it. For most people it's a decision of is the material worth the extra $650+.
On my channel I concentrate on reviewing knives, firearms and EDC items.....Not forcing my personal moral ideals on total strangers. And I find the timing of this video to be highly suspect. Especially considering Ganzo/Firebird has made a recent move toward original designs. In fact their last three big releases were all original designs. Also the patent on BM's Axis Lock has expired. So continuing to bash Ganzo's use of the design is rediculous. I do not review, purchase or condone the purchase of "clone" knives. And never will. But I also do not act like homage or copy knives are the same thing. They obviously are not. And I also do not tell people what they should or should not purchase. I worked as a sales person in the worlds largest knife store. In that capacity I dealt with tens of thousands of retail customers. The fact is, most people outside of the knife enthusiast community will never spend more than $20.00 on a knife. I know that for a fact. I saw it every day. That is why the copy/homage/clone market exists. Not because people are dishonest, but because the real deal knives are priced outside of any realistically acceptable price range.
Looking at he Ganzo Firebird F712 I see a knife profile that goes back hundreds of years, surly no one can lay claim to a profile that has been around for such a long time.
Clones not counterfeits, they don't claim the original company's name/logo. If the quality is there at 10% the price then the original company are being shady, no problem undercutting that kind of shadiness (though it would be nicer to see some design changes).
I have a couple of these knives and I must say, these are fun knives to have around and fool with or modify without fear of destroying or losing your 100$ knife.
Way to go... I highly dislike Clones, Counterfeits... There are cheap solid offerings that are originals.. BYRD, Mora, Varusteleka, and many more. Cheap doesn’t always means junk. But clones... ive never been a fan! Im with you
DropForgedSurvival personally I don't mind just as long as they don't tarnish the name of the original company. If the clone is made well and is just cheaper because of brand name I could care less. Jordan's or any other kind of clothing for example, they have clones everywhere. The ONLY reason Jordan's are expensive is because of the name brand. The shoes themselves are just like any shoe, nothing special.
Byrd are basically officially sanctioned cheap knockoffs of Spyderco stuff, the Meadowlark is obviously a knockoff Delica, etc. They are also comparable in quality to most other Chinese knockoffs, so I certainly wouldn't call them solid. Mora does make really good stuff, though they pretty much only make one thing in various iterations.
Yeah. Copying the designs of other companies’ products speaks poorly of a manufacturer. As Skall repeatedly points out, there is a difference between inspiration and copying. When you can put the two side by side and say “these are basically the same thing,” then it becomes a problem.
If the originals weren't so ridiculously overpriced, maybe people would buy them instead of the counterfeits. ESPECIALLY since, as you said, the counterfeits are getting better these days. A $10 Sanrenmu is a better cost/benefit than a Sabenza. And I'm not out $500 if I lose it.
+D If I was a designer getting my ideas ripped off, that would be a sign that there's demand for my products and I need to figure out how to cut costs to make it more affordable to the people wanting them. Basic economics shit. Like +germanprepper said, Spyderco has figured this out and they're pumping out $20-$30 knives. (With that case it sounds like someone is buying the knives right from the factories and rebranding them, but who knows.) People that buy knives as some sort of fashion statement, or they buy knives specially for the brand name, are the minority with knife sales. People buy knives to use them. This is why the counterfeits are getting better, they need to compete by being useful.
Point still stands someone put a lot of recources into R&D and now someone is making cheap knock-offs in china. Sure spyderco could participate in child labour and that would make their blades less expensive, but they would not want that. Basic economy shit, as you put it, demands that the most efficient producer wins the race. However if companies like spyderco keep getting beaten by these no name chinese brands, they will stop innovation. This deprives the market from their designs etc. Simple put, they invested into their designs and should not have to sit by whilst some knock-off brand reaps the benefits.
Also for using knives. Dont get a spyderco. Get a bird knife or some other cheap alternative. but dont get the knock-offs thats like buying a fake rolex "just to watch time"
I haven't had any ethical difficulty with the Ganzos in general, because even when they were obviously mimicking popular designs of established companies, they weren't faking logos and trademarks to deceive consumers, nor were they using comparable materials, nor were they in competing price markets with the originals. No harm, no foul, was/is my view. That applies to the Griptillian replicant, which is what, $20 compared to the Griptillian's $80+? Non-issue. The Axis lock is also a non-issue, precisely because the patent expired. That makes the design legally open territory for any manufacturer, just as with other products, like pharmaceuticals (excuse me while I pop a generic Claritin). If there's any doubt that this applies to the knife world, check out LA Police Gear's "Fixed Blade Infantry Knife" which bears more than a passing similarity to Gerber's LMF II. How can they do that? The patent expired, so LAPG made their own version that sells at less than 1/2 the price. The Meadowlark thing is more troubling though. I initially didin't even think about the Byrd line, which is the kind of low-cost variant that I think other makers should develop. The problem here is how well Ganzo is actually doing this. The steel (whether or not it is 440C) has better retention than 8Cr13MoV (in my experience), the fit and finish is reliably good, the knives consistently come razor sharp, the clip/lanard hole design is better, the lockback is more ergonomically designed (for release), they offer a variety of colors, and all at a lower cost. They're doing this better than Spyderco! Really, Spyderco needs to just subcontract the Byrd line to Ganzo and be done with it, since they (Ganzo) seem more invested in perfecting the budget line than Spyderco is.
sure Ganzo make the Byrd line on a lower cost than Spyderco they don't have to pay any designer nor had any projectation cost, they just rip off other people work
how old is a Bird line ? do you really expect me to believe Spyderco carries any design and project expenses after manufacturing design for years ? cmon man you really cannot be THAT naive ...
no, they cut a bit of initial investment which is NOTHING compared to tooling, facilities, workforce and materials needed to produce these knives at decent quality ... the engineering and prototyping in field of SIMPLE cutting tools doesnt cost milions ... this is not automotive or electronics industry, this is simple metal tool. realistically what they cut is TIME and avoiding experiment/failure part of the process by taking what works ... if they took design that is brand new and revolutionary in some sence i would see the "morally bad" part of this, but when they imitate decades old designs and utilize EXPIRED (which means non existent at this point) patents thats whole different story entirely oh and they do not price gouge theyr customers like those "original" companies that sell knives with about $5-10 manufacture price for hundreds ...
personally I really like the knives from gearbest, my question would be if they can produce such good quality at the price then why are Benchmade, Spiderco etc so overpriced, for an edc folder yes D2 is better than 440c but in actual use is the performance good enough to justify a £100 difference?
Thanks for being honest Skall. I'd rather watch a video where you explain why you won't do something or take a clear stand than watch one where you're clearly not enjoying it or not ok with what you're doing.
Id be interested in seeing a video about value for money. I've owned swords ranging from $50 to $250, and the difference is blatant, the quality is easy to see. I've also owned knives(folders) ranging from $20 to $100, and I've got to say that the quality difference isn't there, or is practically non-existent. My favorite carry knives are all 20-30 dollars and I've had them for years, no problem. Anyway I'd be interested to hear your take on this
Jon Anderson no, but then I've never needed to, despite use on wood plastic and the like. A few minutes sharpening at home does the trick, and the parts rarely come loose, if they do a wrench does the trick.
Jon Anderson and many of the more expensive knives don't offer the service you've mentioned. If you've used these services often enough to make the price worth it then I have to wonder if they're not just putting inferior materials into their knives.
This is my how I operate. Counterfeits, as in trying to pass off as the original, absolutely not. Any design under patent is also a no. That is theft, and I do not like thieves. Now if the patent has run out, I have no problem at all with another company producing a particular design. That is how patents are suppose to work. A patent protects an inventor from theft of their design and allows them time to produce and profit from their property. The patents expire eventually to allow the free market to function. So if the patent has expired, the design is tossed into the free market for anyone to pick up.
maybe, just maaaaybeee, the recognized brands ask too much for their knives? especially when you now can get decent-good quality knives for under half the cost? the counterfeiters could put some effort into design tho
Yes and no. Isn't only the materials, you're paying for a brand, we could argue about it all day long but, basically, why a mora cost 20 bucks and a "insert good brand here" cost 3 times more, same with leatherman, whoy it cost 5 times than a ganzo or... When you get brand image, you can ask for more money for the same product.
Ken Ransof Johannessen it's funny you mention that. I'm a cook. I have expensive knives that require ridiculous maintenance, then I have these cheap knives from a commercial kitchen supply that are remarkably.... awesome. They clean and store easier, are more sanitary and ergonomic. I could literally buy 15 of them for the price my one Henkel.
While it is true that many big companies ramp up the price just because they can, you also have to consider their R&D. Of course you can sell knifes for cheaper when you can just copy an existing design vs coming up with, testing and refining a product until it's ready to be released.
All the swords you review aren't giving any of the proceeds to the descendants of the original maker of that style of sword. Literally everything is a rip off/stolen design. In like every other industry/topic, everyone will recommend the cheaper stolen designs over the overpriced ones that work the same. People being stuck up about knife designs is kinda ridiculous to me, does anyone care about stolen hammer or wrench designs? TV designs? Couch designs? Axe designs? No. Not ever.
the bored through cylinder was patented by rollin white for smith and weston, when the patent expired every gun manufacture that made cap and ball revolvers switched to bored through cylinders and brass self contained cartridges for revolvers. would that not be someone blatantly ripping off another company? colt and everyone else did it. and 95% of semi auto pistols are clones of the 1911's concept of design, including some that are direct clones of the look, like kimber. if a patent is expired it is fair game, this gives the original designer an opportunity to make money and then the rest of the world can refine it afterwards so that game changing tech doesn't stay in the hands of one person forever.
I agree with the first but I don't think something like the axis lock should be permanently owned by a certain company. Ultimately it's a simple locking mechanism, not some kind of revolutionary tech. If Cold Steel or any other reputable company was to make a knife with a similar locking mechanism, it would be fine IMO. At some point, stuff like that becomes public knowledge and it influences other makers.
Jon Anderson - Not really. It took few years. A few decades at best. To develop an engine that can accelerate a vehicle to such speeds took much more time. Before that, such wheels weren't needed, so people weren't even trying to develop such things. The first car to reach a speed over 200 mph was Sunbeam 1000 HP Mystery and it was made in 1926. First really practical automobiles with internal combustion engines were made from 1885. That's 41 years. Not centuries.
Now that you have come to this conclusion, how about reviewing some real benchmade knives. I’d love to hear your thoughts on those. I cannot understand why a knife would be $200.
Abdullah Ashahwan well I mean there are so many knives and knife makers. That you would have to be very careful to not step on any toes. Also if there are no patton then it forces company to either get one, or lower there prices to compete. However copying there logo is messed up because now your are really trying to rip something off.
Abdullah Ashahwan part of it is quality. Those knives are made with steels that will keep an edge longer, not corrode/rust just by sitting on a shelf, and will stand up to more abuse. They also have better fit and finish; tolerances are better, blades are generally more centered, actions are smoother, etc. And they'll repair/replace the thing if it does happen to break from regular use. Part of it is due to the knife collecting hobby and the collectability of these knives, but as someone who owns knives from $13 to $1300, I can tell you that most of the time, there is a better quality as you go up the price scale. Last thing to note: the idea of diminishing returns. You'll find this in nearly any product, knives, watches, cars, pens, etc. I suggest you look up some videos if you're not familiar with the concept.
You know what I would love to see more? Reviews and test of kitchen knives/cooking equipment. I, like I imagine most penniless students, do not own, nor plan to buy anytime soon, a sword, but I do have a need for some versatile cutting implements that can cut a slab of meat properly and don't require sharpening every time you cut a tomato.
Benchmade can't have anything against Ganzo using the locking mechanism, the patent has expired. If they don't want people using their tech then they can invent something new and patent that. Supporting them against others using it defeats the whole point of the patent system :/
i am sorry but i think its the fault of the original maker that those exist and go strong. if i have a knife worth 20 of material and assembly and maybe another 20 on design but it costs 200 just for the name of the company on it, it rips of the customers.
If the 'zomgripoff' knife companies didn't spend money on research, design, refinement and marketing, what exactly will 'valueknife' companies produce? The same exact knives they produced last year. Forever.
we are literaly making knifes for thousands of years. there is not much to research, ste steel industry does that. there is also an limited ammount of alloys. yes, design is a thing but thats basicaly it. and to pay ten times the price for a slightly different design isnt realy good imo
It's nice to have a principle 👍 keep up the good work Skall I personally don't really mind about knockoff tho, since I'm not rich and live in developing country, a much cheaper option is always welcome
I will buy the "original" when they offer the same quality to price ratio as ganzo. The big name brands are lot of the times ridiculously overpriced for what they are and they only really worth it to the collectors and the extreme users. Hell I even saw people comparing these knifes to the originals and a lot of the times they held up (sometimes they even faired better than the original). The thing is that they aren't even in competition with each other, the people buying ganzos aren't the same who buy spydercos or benchmades. I don't like the fact that Skal is done with these knifes, but this is his channel, he can do what he wants. Also they aren't counterfeits, they don't say the original branding anywhere. They are copys or maybe homages. Also a seller on ebay or on geatbest using terms like "axis lock" isn't the same as ganzo using it on their official spec list.
100% agreed. I see this so much, and people refuse to buy for the better price because its not the original. It is an awful cycle that disallows improvement to the original. If all the consumer leave the original product for a cheaper and more efficient one the original will have to get better to succeed. This cycle is especially apparent in phones, with higher performing phones than the iPhone x available at less that half the price. Sad, reall.
They are horribly overpriced. There is no question about it. I personally don't know why someone would want to throw away that much money on a knife, and I own 1000+$ swords. >__> These rip-off's are still scum.
Keep in mind when you're buying Kershaw, Benchmade, Spyderco, ect. - you're also buying a warranty. Good luck getting something serviced on your Ganzo knife. Meanwhile, I can shoot an email out to Kershaw and get replacement parts and free sharpening (not that I need it). Benchmade will pretty much replace anything if they can and will re-blade broken blades ridiculously cheap. Again: good luck gettin gthat with your Ganzo. There is also the thing of blade steel. I don't trust Ganzo to have the quality assurance and control to have 440C and at a consistent HRC hardness heat treatment. If Benchmade, Kershaw, Spyderco, ect. (all of who have U.S. factories) don't have what they're advertising, they open themselves up to class-action lawsuits due to false advertisement - so they have an incentive to make sure that what they claim to be offering to you is, in fact, true. Ganzo does not.
This is a big part of why I watch, Skall. You show integrity in your reviews, and you're honest and upfront about what you think of a product. Keep up the good work.
I dont think knockoffs are bad if the patent expires if it says which patent it uses. I only think its bad if they dont say its a copy or if its a bad quality copy.
katzofant that would be the definition of a counterfeit I believe. It's not a bad thing to take a concept and improve on it. Straight out copy something, make it worse than the original is quite frankly fraud since they rarely states it's a subpar copy.
+Johan Ohgren An actual conterfeit would be ripping off the brand name. Copying an expired patent is completely legal and there is no problem with that.
I started collecting knife's and bladed weapons. Im so glad I found your channel and you have taught me so much about weapons.I love your channel thank you.
I do not even care. It all looks the same but different for the most part anyway. He holds two up and all I see are differences. If I want a knife, I want a knife, I don't want to have to study and memorize every knife ever made and then try to decide if the three bolts holding a clip on are too identical to another three bolts holding a clip on.
i assume so, if an artist paints a picture and prints it at a printing store, but someone steals the design and prints it at the same place... yea you get the picture :P
If you ever decide to reconsider the counterfeit/ripoff/"inspired by" issue, here's my two cents. You're such an honest reviewer and product/service endorser, Skall, that you always handle it in the classiest possible way. You're upfront about what it's a copy of, the difference in expected and received qualities of genuine and fake, and the fact that the design must be credited to a different creator. I think the usefulness of these kinds of reviews lies in the cost savings. I'd rather see you review a real $20 knife than a $13 knockoff, because what's the point in ripping off $7? But when the real deal is a $200 pocket folder, and a counterfeit claims same design and similar performance for a fraction of the price, it's somewhere between entertaining and informative to find out how well they deliver. The examples of surprisingly good quality knockoffs might also tip you off to brands with original designs giving the same quality execution at discount prices, which would be worth bringing to light.
If something works, copy it. I don't have anything against that. I'd say counterfeiting is different, because then you're dishonest about what you're selling.
Good point. And people are so vague about that - why protect only specific design features. Why not regulate every thought and idea that was expressed?
As a capitalist these knives sound great, I mean they are almost exactly the same as the originals in both looks and quality but ten times cheaper. I don't see the problem.
Not counterfeits. Just heavy inspiration. Like a 1911 style handgun, trainers that look the same but one has a big brand name. Yeah i would not spend 200 for a name. Counterfeits copy the name too. If it has the name of the big brand, then yeah that's a counterfeit, and i probably would not buy it.
The original notion behind copyright, patent and trademark laws was not to extend a sort of all encompassing protectionism for inventors (though it has become that over the years, largely due to lobbying from companies like Disney). It was to create a robust commonwealth of ideas and a healthy competition based market. Originally an inventor had a very limited time in which to exclusively profit on their invention. After which it fell into the commons. This opened up good ideas to being made better and created the necessity for inventors to constantly innovate. What it has become has stagnated innovation to no small degree. So while it is most the most ethically correct thing to purchase products from the authentic maker, their licensed users, or their authorized distributors. It isn't necessarily the most morally correct thing. You admit that these so-called counterfeits are not necessarily bad knives. And even that it's at least possible for them to be better in some respects. After nearly 30 years of legal exclusivity or prerogative on his intellectual properties (and the prospect of at least 70 years more, even after Sal Glesser dies). You have to ask the honest question. Is that fair to invention itself and the spirit of innovation? It really comes down to a deeper question. Do you think ethics can stand without moral backing?
The fact that Spydrco and Benchmade make the same knives but are many times more expensive says to me that they are overselling the knife based on their brand. The fact that Ganzo can make a very similar knife for at a very similar quality proves to me that they deserve my money more than someone who wants me to pay double just to have their name stamped on the knife. The companies aren't even really competing with each other anyway, Ganzo are selling knives to regular people who need a pocket knife and Spyderco/Benchmade are selling the same knives, over prices, to obssesive knife collectors. A normal person should have the opportunity to buy a knife too, and not just the rich weirdos obssesed over a brand name
In my personal opinion I just can’t see anything wrong with someone else using the axis lock in particular. I’m not saying it’s ok to steal the whole design of someone’s knife, obviously!!!! However if no one but benchmade was ever allowed to use axis locks, I just find that a little ridiculous.
Actually, S&W held for some years patents for metallic cartridge revolvers that kept the other makers (notoriously Colt and Remington) using cap&ball or have to pay them royalties. The moment the patent expired, all makers in the world could make the "modern" revolvers without paying S&W, and the rest is history. I know, very simplified, but nobody reads walls of text in youtube ;-)
i have mixed feelings about counterfeit knives. I'm pretty much against any counterfeit, whether it's a knife, clothing, electronic etc. but i'm also the kind of person who uses his knife as a tool and not as a showpiece that should be carressed and oiled every night. I'm not sure if i want to spend hunderds of euro's on a knife just to get it dirty, scratched up and beaten. Maybe the best way for me is to get a cheaper second hand quality knife (or get a more affordable quality knife). I do have to add that i have never owned a good quality knife, just because i dont think im worth it. Still using my old grandfathers knife up to this day. It is time to find something else as this knife is getting quite thin.
I don’t understand the moral quandary about reviewing the knock offs. Some of your subs may go out and buy them as a result, and save money and be happier for it. So what if it hurts a massive companies (like cold steel just as an example) bottom line?
Ganzos are a good way to try a knife design that costs 3 times as much if not more to see if you like it enough to buy the real deal it is how I started getting into Benchmade knives ie buying ganzo's that are similar enough to get a feel for it. The bedlam is the best example bought the knock off and with in 3 week of owning it went and ordered the real deal . Sorry but not everyone has 160 to 350 to risk on a knife unsure if they will like it once in hand , You can say well if you do not like it sell it yeah you can but you will take a massive hit on the price if you used the thing at all so I will keep buying Ganzo knives when I see one with a design similar to one I wanna try .
You get what you pay for. People put effort into their passion, not the replica. Sometimes that's fine, usually not. Logitec vs sony. Coldsteel vs bench made.
That is not a valid argument in my opinion nelson. If you like things, anything the normal habit for a human being is to get more of that thing. While I don't approve of all counterfeit-ish knives the point here is that sometimes companies really do think that they have the right to monopoly and triple down the price of their products, without counterfeits that come around when the temp creative exclusive rights finally go away there is no competition to bring the products down to reasonable prices. I know for a fact that 90% of all brand named high priced knives are indeed not worth half of what they charge for what you are getting. It almost is abuse to the consumer to keep your prices so damn high, that should be saved for when you start releasing a new product and sell enough to pay for the idea and production processes you created, but to flatline right there and stay so high in price needlessly is just criminal to the average consumer. The only knives that I think are truly worth hundreds and up are completely hand made one of a kind knives, at that point its like art and there is only one original, I'd have no problem paying hundreds for something with that sentiment, but mass produced knives!? Especially folders, no damn way am I wasting money forever on something there are thousands of just dangling off somebody's pocket.
No, I could not. I want more than 1 or 2 knives in my collection. Yet I also want the best quality available that is within my budget. If the Chinese knife manufactureres offer this, I take it - why don't the big brands do it with a low-level brand with a similar price with a couple of their designs, or old designs? Obviously, producing them is not that expensive. Also the Chinese manufacturteres have their own designs, too, they do not offer the "rip-offs" only. And honestly, a knife connoisseur would never pick the Chinese stuff over the original, if he thinks that the brand and not the end product is the way to go. I would love to own more real Spydercos, high quality Böker knives, or even a cool Benchmade. But: Ain't gonna happen. I choose to have 10 Chinese knives instead of 1 or maybe 2 "brand" knives. If I lose a Chinese knife or if I want to gift one, I can take the loss or just do it. I just do not have the funds for the expensive stuff. They are tools, and if they break, well, better a 10 $ knife breaks than a 70 $ knife, especially if both have a comparable quality level... or if I lose them. Or take them apart and accidentally wreck them. Look it that way: If you buy a car, as a real car person, you of course buy a Mercedes, or a BMW, maybe a Porsche. Why wouldn't you, it offers one of the best qualities all around, and carries the prestige. Yet people buy their KIA and Hyundai and Dacia (car manufactureres rip off a lot, too...) cars. Why? Because some people CAN spend 40,000+ $ for a car, some have trouble paying off a car that costs "only" 12,000 $. And as long as the "cheap" knives are out there, legal to buy, and maintain their incredible price to quality ratio, I buy them until I am rich enough to have a choice. Because right now, I have the choice between no knife at all, or Chinese ones. Also I suspect that a big portion of the price of the "brand" knives is the brand itself, not any real cost. I could argue, why do people buy industrial made knives? Just buy custom knives only. In fact, I would buy one if I can. I highly disapprove of counterfeiting or ripping-off. But they offer what I would not be able to afford, and since people like to believe that it is a free market, I aim for the lowest price possible.
Ganzo make the byrd knife under contract in the same factory in China, so the two knives you showed the Ganzo f759m and the Byrd meadowlark were both made by Ganzo, Ganzo also make the Delica for Byrd, Byrd have out sourced their knives to chinese factories.
Oftentimes, chinese companies are hired out to produce knives. The designs are sent to china, and finished knives are sent back. In the US, the company that designed the knife has a bunch of overhead, and sells the knife at a markup to cover administrative costs, server costs, marketing, and of course brand name. But the chinese companies also produce enough to be sold in china, without that companies overhead, and as a result can be sold at a way lower price This doesn't hurt the US companies profit, and is only beneficial to consumers. WIth the advent of the internet, its now easy to purchase knives direct from china, including knives not meant for the US market. Doesn't happen all the time, but ultimately it is easy to judge without seeing the whole picture.
Noooooo :( :(. I got a Ganzo g740 for Christmas, and I was super happy with it, my first good knife. I can't find any Benchmade model that looks like it yet, but I can't help but feel a little bit sad about the possibility. Hopefully this one is actually theirs, I love the design, and the quality is very good. I'll keep looking at Benchmade's website.
I joined this channel for your older knife reviews and abuse testing (which we dont get anymore lately), but i certainly didint sub for moralizing and if theres something i hate more than moralists than its hypocrites ... you either dislike knock offs and you dont do reviews on then and we dont have to listen your whining every time you touch some (like the katana). OR you do the review cause its for free. Especially then this is not a counterfeit soled with a BYRD logo, its knock off and a good value knife on top, and last not least the BYRD has worse steel and costs around 30 bucks in my country which is not 'so-so' difference but 3times more, and TBH after gettin this knife i even might get the BYRD for the design, but i dont rly like to support companies such as SPY and their overpriced policy of knives with worse steel costing 3 times more....with this im leaving the channel, wish you good luck.
I love clones. More competition means more choice for the buyer. If someone else can do the same thing as you, but cheaper, then they get the job. That's just how the market works. If they're using different materials, then it's not a clone. It's up to the buyer whether they want to pay more for better materials. If the original is $20 vs these counterfeits for $13, then they're doing a good job in maintaining low prices on the original through their competition. If the original decides to charge too much, then the counterfeits have a higher margin to use better materials and become true clones. This ensures buyers get the best product for the cheapest price.
Skal, as far as I know in the Kanadian law the design has to be only 20% different from the original not to have a patent infringement. There is only ONE folding knife anyone needs: a Victorinox lock blade! Did the 'branded' knife makers get to you?
I have seen something very similar top that access lock on many sog knives. I don't know if it is exactly the same. I don't have one of reach in front of me to compare. But it does look at function very similar.
My opinion-if the fake knife is claiming to be something it's not, THAT I will avoid. So if a knife is labeled as a Cold Steel, or Benchmade, or whatever but isn't really(ie, a true counterfeit), or if the knife claims to be made of Elmax/M390 or whatever, when it's clearly 440A or something, those are no go's for me. However, if the knife is just an aesthetical copy, doesn't claim to be made by some other company, and admits it's just 440c or 8Cr13 or whatever cheaper steel, I really don't care. Sure, if the original knife is $20, I'll get that rather than a $13 clone, but if it's a Ganzo 345whatever with 440C for $13 or the same knife as a $164 Spyderco with S30V, sorry Spydie, but I'm goin Ganzo, cause I don't consider the difference in steel and being made in Japan to be worth the $151 difference in price.
Nice. Good for taking a stance. It would be nice to hear what the difference (or see examples of) inspired by and counterfeit. I know it a stark difference but I think it would still be cool.
I own a cheaper Scottish basket hilt so the blade is not great. The guard however seemed to be very strong despite that. I was playing with some techniques and wanted your oppinion on half swording with a basket hilt.
Apples and oranges. TVs and electronics don't generally require a whole lot of detail in physical design, rather it's the features and what's inside that are important. That being said, you will most certainly know when you buy a lesser quality knockoff of electronics.
I used to buy cheap knives and knockoffs a lot when i was younger. Every couple months i was looking for a new knife because they would get loose and clips would break within first few weeks. I bought a gerber, and a bench made back in 2000 and havent bought another pocket knife since. The bench made was mini pika and the gerber is the air ranger model. Both have held up well to daily use with 8 years of military service, the bulk of which was cutting paracord and the occasional seat belt. The mini pika has an odd butterfly design on the blade and iirc the packaging said something about bali song. I see nothing on the blade about bali song other than the butterfly. Both clips have held up, i lost screws from both of them and a quick call to the manufacturers and i got sent replacement clips and screws.
After you've mentioned AXIS lock - you just sound hypocritical. There's no such thing as "general design". Someone invented a specific design and after some time more people start incorporating it into their products. Is it a time issue for you? When, according to you, it is now okay to rip off... I meant use a "general design"? And in regards of "being inspired by but adding something new" - it's not always a good idea. "general" designs are the way they are because they've survived the test of time; altering them is something unnecessary.
Exactly. You can go to almost any dollar store, walmart, or gas station in America and buy one of the "medowhawk" for knives for 2-5 dollars. The only difference is that Ganzo and Spyderco just made theirs from materials that are better than plastic and stainless steel.
If i remember the axis is just off of patent or about to be. They have a new disign there starting to come out with in blades like the Benchmade Anthem.
I'm willing to bet that within 5 - 10 years we'll start seeing more original designs coming from these Chinese companies. I suspect that what they're doing right now is the same as their military industry, they copy other people's designs in order to learn quickly without all of the trial and error. Once they've figured that they've learned all they can they'll start branching out and creating their own original designs, plus, by that point people will be more familiar with the brands and will be more inclined to buy their original designs because they've found out over the years that, based on their counterfeits, they make good knives.
Riceball01 - you are correct. We've seen that in other places and other industries already, not to mention that Ganzo has already made a name for themselves.
greensloth10 I wouldn't say that. You have to understand that China was late to modernize and that modernization was interrupted by the Cultural Revolution which set them back by decades and they're now trying to catch up. So, instead of re-inventing the wheel they just copy the wheel in order to learn how to make wheels themselves. Is it the most honest way of doing things, probably not, but I can't say I blame them, if I were seriously behind the rest of the world and wanted to catch up in the shortest amount of time I'd probably do the same. After all, we're not talking about taking a test at school or getting your driver's license, we're talking national pride and improving one's country's economic status.
greensloth10 So you're saying that if you were the Premier/President of China, or your own country in the same boat as China you wouldn't do the same? You'd take the long, slow route and basically re-invent the wheel and hope that the rest of the world slows down so that you can catch up in another 20 - 30 years? Good luck with that.
There already are Chinese companies like this, Kizer, WE, Real Steel, Reate... and others. China is showing that there are no longer just associated with the $5 quality flea market knives of old, and are producing high end and well made knives with premium materials.
None of these knives are Counterfeit Knives, vaguely looking like other knives a counterfeit does not make. Going by this logic of "counterfeiting" all cars are Counterfeit Model T Fords, you should just keep doing reviews on these knives, seeing as this company is making knives of great quality for really cheap prices, these other companies should just stop making overpriced knives.
Thanks for the honesty Skall, I’m (unfortunately) one of the many who LOVES many of the high dollar designs of BM and SPY, but can’t afford/justify spending $120-$220 for ANOTHER knife, especially with my many expenses... I really like the 712... It’d probably make you groan, but I think I’ll try to get one because of how you favorably you talk of it... But to make up for it, I’ll get a CaraCara and Tenacious as well...🤗
I'm too am done with counterfeit knives and anything that I might need to deffend or use in a life-death situation... Not that I would be anytime soon in a life-death situation but I was really dissappointed with a knife that was pretty stout and it FELT really great, but when I had to cut just some pieces of wood the knife lock system gave up and I nearly tored my hand open
These are copies, not counterfeits. The point with counterfeits is that they can pass for and be sold as the original item, down to the branding and whatnot, and there's intentional deception involved. These are just knock offs of the designs, that are clearly sold as such. As for the ethics of that, eh, the copies can almost never really compete with the opriginals and they serve very different markets so I'm kinda meh on the issue. Like hardly anyone who would ever seriously consider buying a $100+ Spyderco is going to be swayed into buying a $20 copy.
but a copy of 14$ instead of the 20$ original isn't in the same market range?
Yeah, that's kind of a weird exception, especially since the Spyderco Bryd line is basically already an official line of Chinese knockoffs (the Meadowlark for example is clearly a knockoff Spyderco Delica). It's pretty obvious that Spyderco did that specifically to combat this sort of thing. But with that one major exception, generally my point still stands.
Well, I owned two Delicas (lost both) and the next one will be a copy. I can fully understand the ethical issue, but I'm curious about what I'd get for the money. I hate counterfeits but copies are so-so.
the difference is that a counterfeit is pretending to be the other item(the spyderco knife in this case). So it would literally say spyderco on the knife and it would be completly the same. A copy does only copy the design but does not claim to be from the other manufacturer.
"I can fully understand the ethical issue, but I'm curious about what I'd get for the money". you'd make a good trump lawyer LMAO!
People assume branded knifes cost a lot more in scale to materials/production because of the brand name - but if you think about it more, as I did, you realise that
A) Those companies hire a designer to design a knife
B) Marketing team does studies both before and after it's been conceptualised
C) Their quality control is more strict, so the tooling/materials/workers are payed more
D) They have customer support, even if it's 1 person that'll respond to your email inquiry
E) They need a PR department to broaden their reach and market their product
What does counterfeit do? It skips all the steps. It does not need any PR, needs some quality control but it's even expected to perform worse than original - and the original is doing all the marketing for it. If you ever look at an expensive product, you'll always check alternative places to buy it from (cheaper), and always stumble upon cheaper brands/fakes (You looked at Sony phone but Huawei is much cheaper but with same specs, something like that)
I'm really proud of Skall for stopping with fakes promotion - as for all of us, buying fakes isn't doing a bad deed - it's capitalism, if a company wants to make its money, it patents, fights with lawyers, etc. This is consumer market, we're not supposed to defend someone else's profit.
On the first one, I would call it a rip off if it wasn't for one issue:
That is literally the design of "cheap $5 throwaway knife." You can go to almost any gas station, Walmart, dollar store, etc. in America and pick one up that's nearly identical for 5 bucks or less, and it's been that way for well over a decade. That design isn't special or unique in any way. In fact, looking on their Amazon page, even Spyderco makes other knives that look nearly identical.
As for the second, Benchmade never trademarked the term "axial lock," and their patent expired. They cheap company legally did literally nothing wrong on that one.
Your Sony/Huawei comparison does not make any sense. It's cheaper, but it's not fake, it's not a copy. Yes, it has same specs, but so does every other flagship - Snapdragon 835 with Adreno 540 graphics. Galaxy S8/S8 plus/Note8 have it, Oneplus 5 and 5t have it, Asus Zenfone 4 Pro has it, HTC U11 has it, Google Pixel 2 and Pixel 2 XL have it, as well as Xperia XZ Premium, Xiaomi Mi 6, LG V30, ZTE Nubia Z17, Nokia 8, Motorola Moto Z2 Force, Xperia XZ1 & XZ1 Compact, Xiaomi Mi Mix 2, Razer Phone and so on and so forth.
You're right about the steps, but your comparison does not make any sense.
Also - a lot designs are just as JakeSnake07 says - they're generic, and if you want to do something other, there's already something that looks similarly.
Your smartphone comparison is a pretty weak example, that's like saying that laptops with the very similar specs as "THE one laptop" are ripoffs of said laptop, in that case everyone would be ripoffs of one another for everything.
@Chrly Ray - not exactly. The really cheap fakes are as you say. But not Ganzo. And not Sanrenmu. And there are other brands that do that. Quality control does not exist in total counterfeits that copy even the name of the brand. In the case of knives that copy the design, but use their own name, they have quality control, and it's often not that far off from the expensive brands. Ganzo has developed a name for themselves as a manufacturer of cheap but good knives, so they have to maintain or increase their quality control.
Well, I'm all for original design and against counterfeints. But these days many western companies moved their manufacturing to China or other Asian countries because it's cheaper there. But did they lower their prices accordingly? No, prices are higher than ever. So they sell Chinese stuff as their own for double to ten times the actual price and then they complain when the Chinese sell the same stuff without the logo at affordable prices. Can't say I feel much pity for them. There are however companies like Extrema Ratio that make their knives domestically and have to pay higher wages and taxes and I wouldn't buy an ER rip off, because they provide jobs and pay taxes.
Exactly. Companies exploiting cheap labor, and keeping the extra profit for themselves. If someone is going to buy a made in china knife, why not go for the cheaper option?
Exactly guys. Can't expect brand loyalty from consumers when some companies are whoring their brands and designs all over the place. I'd rather buy a Chinese ripoff for much cheaper, than a made-in-china original design, too.
I think Spyderco makes knives in the USA. Benchmade brand is all made in the USA. Hinderer knives, USA. Chris Reeves Knives, USA.
Hopefully by buying a rip-off, the money goes to the people instead of a big business.
@Jon Anderson: I just went to amzn.to/2qDNXz1 and that particular Spyderco knife seems to be made in China, according to customer Q&A. I don't know about the rest of them, but... I doubt that suddenly most of American companies manufacture their stuff in USA, you know, as opposed to countries with 4 times cheaper labor like India or China, or Mexico. Must be Trump's reforms, or something. [
Benchmade can neither condone or condemn Ganzo using their axis lock deign, as the patent is expired. Anybody can use this design feature now. Where they may have a legitimate gripe is if the term "axis lock" is being used and if it is a trademarked term by Benchmade which would not have expired yet.
they can also, if the design of the knife in it's entirety is trademarked or falls under the copyright (I'm unsure about the US-situation here, not from the states).
And these Ganzo knifes are blatant design-copies. No effort made.
They're not blatant copies. They're similar, but not 1:1 copies. Also - copyrights are only legaly binding in places where the patent was placed. US patent has no impact in China or Taiwan, or even Europe. If they want to be protected, then they'd have to file copyright patents in those other countries. But if for example Ganzo makes a knife that's protected under US law, then they can't sell it in the US, but they can everywhere else. Also - if the term "axis lock" is only used by gearbest and not Ganzo themselves - then that's gearbest's problem, not Ganzo's.
rubbers3 And that is how the vast majority of Chinese patents came into being. Seriously. I understand that it’s actually quite a problem for foreign companies looking to access the Chinese market. Some Chinese company will have already copied the design and filed a patent in China, so the original company can’t do anything about it, because the CCP doesn’t care who came up with the idea first. A small, basically unknown Chinese company tried to sue Apple for copying THEIR phone designs, and almost certainly would have won if the company hadn’t gone bankrupt before the trial could take place.
They can certainly condone or condemn it, they're allowed to have an opinion on others copying their designs. The difference is that if the patent's expired it's an opinion; if it's not it's a lawsuit.
+Sareth
Not applicable. KAI/Kershaw wasn't able to sue Microtech for their deliberate rip-off of the 0777 with their Microtech "Matrix." Spyderco lost their court case against Benchmade for their use of the opening hole. American intellectual property law does not cover that under knives. Why? Because if it did, companies could sue one another at the turn of a hat for having designs a little "too similar" to theirs. it would be a legal shitshow.
Also, these are not blatant copies. Having had Ganzo "AXIS" lock designs, I can tell you right now that the internals are VERY different and no where near as well-designed and made as Benchmade's. Again, this is why intellectual property laws don't get this ridiculous. Just because they look similar at a cursory glance doesn't mean they are similar enough to be considered infringement.
Think of it with firearms development, as well. How many designs are similar to one another today? How many rifles out there borrow from the AR18's operating system? How many use striker-fired designs? Pretty much every design on the market could be sued by another manufacturer if the laws were like that, because all are very similar at first glance. Thankfully, the laws don't work like that. We already have enough frivolous lawsuits.
I have no problem with knock offs, but I do with counterfeits. Don't put someone else's name on your stuff. Own that you made it. After that it's not rocket science, it's not like there is a lot of R&D going on here. It's mostly just marketing.
Exactly. Putting someone's name is lying about the product features therefore it is not a valid contract. Intellectual property is not based on anything. Property rights are important because of scarcity, whilst one cannot own ideas for himself, and they are not scarce. Using the logic we can't use someone else's mind, we should be back in the stone age cause one guy blocks others from using the idea of a wheel. Patent time is purely arbitrary and again has no logical grouding.
I'm done with league of legends
Mah nigga
not even close, babyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
reminds me of that time dunkey beat sky in smash!
ragu suelto
Heh, I never played it. MOBAs aren't my thing. I play actual strategy games like Total War and Age of Mythology.
I love you
Hey Skall, could you make a video for "knife noobs" explaining what to look for in a knife, what to avoid, basic concepts and such?
david burrus There’s huge variety in knife design depending on what you want it for. Selecting the correct one can get pretty nuanced. We’re not talking about choosing a new kitchen knife here
david burrus thank you for your invaluable input, you have for sure provided plenty of useful information which will benefit every single one of the members of this community. Your contribution was not only necessary, but indispensable. Well done.
Trajan thank you
I think Skall is not experienced enough for this task. Sorry to say that but i think its true
david burrus ...you do realize the heights of dumbass your comment has reached right?
You are basically saying, if you want to learn about something, fuck off if you just don't know it.
The price of the original version of the last knife is just ridiculous. I understand that designing a product cost money, but it's just a knife, not a car. They have to be more competitive with their pricing.
That's a fair price for a decent knife. Spyderco is as good as it comes and most of their stuff is above 100$.
@@Dinjur it is a bit gimmicky then anything. There’s better knife companies out there
@@kova1577 it's not. They use high quality steel and are very well made. They're built to last and they are a fine choice for heavy duty work.
@@Dinjur I’ll check out the para 3 that I got from BladeHQ and get back to you. Still hasn’t arrived yet
@@Dinjur If they have a good production line in a small shop, that knife probably doesn't cost more than 20 to 30 bucks for labor and materials.
If it's factory made, like 5 to 10 bucks?
To put it more in perspective, it's also the same price as getting a Tod Cutler dagger - famous company, high quality blades, hand crafted
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't counterfeits supposed to exactly copy knives down to the logo?
It seems to me that a lot of ganzo knives do steal the ergonomics but they do not pretend to ride the reputation or quality control standards of another brand.
While I can understand being unhappy with designing copying, to me I view it the same way I'd view generic soda. I very well know that the generic cola at the store is ripping off the flavor of Coke, but millions buy it without batting an eye. So I guess the best comparison I'd make with these knives is that they're closer to a generic brand than a straight up counterfeit.
Matthew Showler The problem with things like knives are the designs themselves are copyrighted, or even further some brands (benchmade) have designer knives which could very well be protected through the same laws that govern art. While the word counterfeit may not be the correct one to use, many of the same laws concerning counterfeits would apply without licencing. Hope that helped
IgnorantGravity
I see. That is a bit morally dishonest then and I understand why many take issue with knives of this type. Personally I will admit I buy actual counterfeits of knives like cold steel and microtech. So these knives don't even seem that problematic to me from my point of view.
I don't think copyright law is applicable here. But there is such a thing as a protected "industrial design right". It's quite similar to a patent and would generally cover the protection against "counterfeits" as seen in this video. The question is, are the authors of the original designs aware of these protection mechanisms and are these being used? If no industrial design right is registered, then there is nothing wrong with "counterfeiting" in such a manner (other than from a purely ethical point of view).
I believe it should take a lot design differences for a knife design to be patented. knife blades of all shapes, and handles have been around for centuries it's almost public domain. I understand designs like otf knives could be patented because of mechanical parts, but a pointed piece of sharpened metal? did spyderco buy rights from the guy who invented the lock back they use on their knives, what about the guy who invented serrations? or the guy who invented the first folder, or the guy who invented the thumb stud? I know those guys may not be known but unless it has their logo and claims to be theirs I don't really have a problem. I may be wrong but that is how i currently see it, because without public domain of certain designs nothing would have been improved upon.
Chrly Ray
I have to really disagree with that. The quality control on these ganzo/sanrenmu/enline knives are impressive. And heat treatment is spot on. The only difference is they use different steel grades that are lower end compared to their contemporaries. It's unfair to compare Spyderco's S30V to ganzo's 440C. They are apples and oranges.
Calling ganzo knives counterfeit is doing them a disservice imo, they definitely aren’t counterfeits. They are not trying to fool consumers into thinking they are real spydercos and benchmades. They are even starting to move into the direction of producing their own designs. They are good for the money, even awesome for the money. Their axis lock is actually smoother than the Benchmade axis lock, at least after cleaning the China out and doing a little tuning on the omega springs. Fine knives for under $20. I’m starting to really like some of the original stuff coming out of China, like Real Steel and a couple of others. Original designs with quality build and materials at higher prices than ganzo but still very affordable.
If a company can make basically the same knife for 10% of the price, the original designer needs to reevaluate the pricing
I understand your anger over it, but Skall... I hate to say it but if a patent is expired it's expired. There's nothing legally wrong here unless they have the term "axis lock" copyrighted.
He isn´t saying that its illegal he´s just saying it´s scummy
anger is a strong word, I don't think he was angry about it
It's not really scummy IMO. It's a patent expired, it's in the public domain, anyone is free to use it. Calling it scummy is scummy.
Yeah. I have to agree. It's like refusing to use a telephone that was made by someone other than Alexander Bell, or to fly in an airplane not made by the Wright Brothers. Or, for that matter, refusing to drink Cola other than Coke. The whole point of a patent, the very *basis* of the principle, is that they expire. Period.
They are meant to give the inventor a limited, finite, time in which they have the exclusive right to sell an invention, before it becomes subject to the free market. It benefits all of mankind that patents do expire; it's what drives market competition as well as allows for the wider circulation and access to important new inventions. Saying it's scummy is basically saying that the corporation that invents something should be able to control the price, and to control access to their invention, for all of time, regardless of the impact that has on the market or the customer.
That's not even capitalism, it's actually socialism, a form of socialism that benefits the rich rather than the poor! If you think it's bad to copy an expired patent, then you are saying that you want to live in a world where there is only one brand of gasoline, only one brand of car, only one brand of firearm, and only one brand of any drug, to give a few examples. It would be a total dystopian society, somewhat like the USSR except instead of the state, it would be private monopolies, who are subsidized and protected BY the state.
Khurram Aziz using someone's hard work and just being lazy is scummy.
I think most people care about value. What do you get for the money you spend. If a Counterfeit knife is almost as good as the real deal but cost half the price then why would you choose the real one? I don't like when they charge alot of money for the brand. I only care about quality for the money. If its twice the price i expect it to be twice as good.
ye,its funny when businesses get on the other side of capitalism they start whining about "fairness" and "ethics"
like other people said this thing help Europe market caus US companies have either extreme prices or stuff arent just being sold.....
chinese with their trade agreements can get their stuff there much easier.
MeldinX2 you clearly don't understand the idea of diminishing returns in goods and services. It's in every product you own, I suggest you look it up.
+Wotan The first knife is a cheap design that's been around for well over a decade, and can be bought for a 2-5 USD at most gas stations and Walmarts in America. the second uses a lock design that is no longer patented and calls it a name that's never been trademarked.
Literally nothing here has been "stolen."
@Wōtan
That's a good question, Why should I care about intellectual property that isn't even mine to begin with? why should i care about a product that was not made by me in the first place? why???
Produce what of quality? As the guy before me said, there is nothing to actually steal in the desighn, it is to old and generic for that.
And If I ever end up selling stuff at 150% price just because it has my name on it, then yes, people should go and buy other options.
Why are the bench made and spiderco knives so expensive? Being a hobby knife maker myself I don't self my knives that take me many hours for 200 dollars. Personally I don't see the appeal because steel quality even on cheap knives is often very good nowadays so your really only paying for the name while they cash in on their mass produced knives that cost them nothing to make. Just my opinion.
TheInfiniteLoop
The only cheap steel i like is bucks 420hc though i am exited to try ether 440c or vg10 mabe the upgrade will justify the price
It is mostly the name. Same reason why custom knives from certain makers get so expensive. It's also partually design. If you like the Spyderco look and you want it, then you will have to pay their price.
TheInfiniteLoop A thing you forget is the cost of developing designs, advertising, mechanisms and testing the look.
I would say that they first use their patents to design it virtually which takes time, then they show it to normal potential customers to see if the design is accepted (if not they have to redo it over and over until a majority likes it) then they start advertising and produce up to their standards. That all costs money and while the name probably is responsible for some of the costs its not going to be the majority.
Faker knifes circumvent all that cost by just taking the finished product and profiting off the reputation/advertisement of the original. Because people who cant afford the expensive one will end up buying the fakes on them.
Thatslifebro fair enough, but idk if that makes them worth 200 dollars. Once you have the machinery you have the machinery if anything the cost of your knife should go down because of how much more efficient you are at making them. This is of course after you pay of the initial investment.
If the patent is expired- Benchmade can’t do squat about people ripping it off.
and thats a good thing. Imagine the patent on push button telephones would still be valid for example. Either one company would have a monopoly on telephones(or they get a lot of royalties from other companies) or we would still be using rotary dial phones.
Almost all technologies we use on a daily basis were patented at one point, its quite a good thing that those run out.
If the patent of the lock system has expired and the term "Axis Lock" is not trademarked by the original company that created it, it's free game.
I would be far more concerned with the general mimicry of designs, like the first two knives you compared to each other. It's basically the same deal as with pirate products like Nuke or Adidos shoes or clothing; they're cashing in on looking like a brand product, but you often don't get any assurance of actual quality in terms of materials or construction.
The problem of this is that if I have a choice between a brand knife that costs a lot, and a non-brand knife of equal quality that costs less, I would probably choose the cheaper knife. I mean I've never been interested in having "brand products" just because of the brand itself; if it does the job and look fine, I'm happy with it. But if it's obvious that the cheaper knife is trying to sell itself by imitating a brand knife design, then I can't really know if the "counterfeit" knife is any good (re: steel quality and constcution), or if it's just trying to sell itself by looking like a brand product.
So I'm actually more insulted by the fact that companies that are apparently perfectly capable of making decent knives still choose to mimic the designs of knives from well known brands. I mean, don't they have any pride in their own work? Or are they just so cheap they don't want to hire a competent designer and make their own patterns?
This is my feeling as well. If they can make a good knife then they should be able to hire a designer to make something new. This is just lazy and annoying. With this they are just exploiting on the marketing and development work of the original company.
Usually the original design companies are the ones that have made all the non-successful models and then when they get something right they have to pay off all the trial and error. This is why "second to market" stuff sometimes really sucks.
Good balanced video again from Skallagrim in my opinion. The difference comes from the fact that he is reviewing and causing people to buy these things so even if he himself would like to buy these knives it makes sense to avoid reviewing them.
It's not like with "Adidos", cause they use their own name that's not even slightly similar to other, well known brands. They're ripping of the design, but they change it and use their own name both of the brand and of the knife.
You're right, that when a knife is copying other knife's design, then you can't be sure of the quality. However, Ganzo has made a name for themselves already, by making good quality knives for a low price, so they can't allow themselves to have low quality.
Nuke shoes? I kinda want that...:-P
Counterfeits are great alternatives for people who like the original designs but think spending $200 on a knife is silly. Especially when the branded knives aren't even functionally any better, but cost 20 times as much.
Almus Quotch you don't get the same experience with an counterfeit knife. Youre buying mystery steel that has questionable edge retention. Just look at Cedric & Ada's testing. Cheap Chinese knife steel like 8cr13mov only lasted 39 cuts vs decent steel like 154cm lasted 124 cuts that's 3 times better edge performance than a knock off could be.
Most knock off brads do label their steel, Ganzo mostly uses 440c.
In regards to edge retention it's misleading to suggest a high end steel is three times better than a budget steel; edge retention test only reflect the hardness of a steel but doesn't reflect toughness or ease of sharpening which are directly inverse to hardness. So a harder steel is also more brittle and difficult to sharpen.
Making an extremely hard knife edge is easy and can be done relatively cheaply, like on saw teeth. In theory you could make an untempered knife blade out of very high carbon steel that would massively outperform any super steel in edge retention tests, at a fraction of the price; but that would make for an extremely brittle blade that was almost impossible to sharpen when it did get dull. Blades made out of tungsten carbide or flint could also achieve this.
My point is that high end steel are not objectively better than budget steels. You should look into which better suits your personal use and sharpening habits and not mindlessly buy into marketing hype designed to sell overpriced man jewelry to impressionable idiots with no understanding of materiel science.
touofthehighplains But you're also paying mystery steel prices. You can get plenty of cheap knives in 8cr13mov or equivalent for $20, the same price as most of these clones. I mean hell, lots of CRKT knives cost $50 or more and have 8cr13mov.
Unfortunately, competition is a thing. If you choose to design a knife and charge $700 for it and China can reproduce it for 5% of the price, people are going to consider it. For most people it's a decision of is the material worth the extra $650+.
Almus Quotch that’s what poor people say there night and day
On my channel I concentrate on reviewing knives, firearms and EDC items.....Not forcing my personal moral ideals on total strangers.
And I find the timing of this video to be highly suspect. Especially considering Ganzo/Firebird has made a recent move toward original designs. In fact their last three big releases were all original designs. Also the patent on BM's Axis Lock has expired. So continuing to bash Ganzo's use of the design is rediculous.
I do not review, purchase or condone the purchase of "clone" knives. And never will. But I also do not act like homage or copy knives are the same thing. They obviously are not. And I also do not tell people what they should or should not purchase. I worked as a sales person in the worlds largest knife store. In that capacity I dealt with tens of thousands of retail customers. The fact is, most people outside of the knife enthusiast community will never spend more than $20.00 on a knife. I know that for a fact. I saw it every day. That is why the copy/homage/clone market exists. Not because people are dishonest, but because the real deal knives are priced outside of any realistically acceptable price range.
I wonder if Grofnar of the proto-hittites had to pay royalties to Shub-nizzar of Ur for violating the patent on "metal cutty stabby thing"
BlueTravesty
It'd be funny.
Nope those were the days... killing his tribe and salting the earth was so much more civilised than subjecting everyone to court etc
Looking at he Ganzo Firebird F712 I see a knife profile that goes back hundreds of years, surly no one can lay claim to a profile that has been around for such a long time.
Clones not counterfeits, they don't claim the original company's name/logo. If the quality is there at 10% the price then the original company are being shady, no problem undercutting that kind of shadiness (though it would be nicer to see some design changes).
I have a couple of these knives and I must say, these are fun knives to have around and fool with or modify without fear of destroying or losing your 100$ knife.
Way to go... I highly dislike Clones, Counterfeits... There are cheap solid offerings that are originals.. BYRD, Mora, Varusteleka, and many more. Cheap doesn’t always means junk. But clones... ive never been a fan! Im with you
DropForgedSurvival personally I don't mind just as long as they don't tarnish the name of the original company. If the clone is made well and is just cheaper because of brand name I could care less. Jordan's or any other kind of clothing for example, they have clones everywhere. The ONLY reason Jordan's are expensive is because of the name brand. The shoes themselves are just like any shoe, nothing special.
....& not to be left off that list Condor Tool and Knife!!!! I personally love that company.
Byrd are basically officially sanctioned cheap knockoffs of Spyderco stuff, the Meadowlark is obviously a knockoff Delica, etc. They are also comparable in quality to most other Chinese knockoffs, so I certainly wouldn't call them solid. Mora does make really good stuff, though they pretty much only make one thing in various iterations.
Yeah. Copying the designs of other companies’ products speaks poorly of a manufacturer. As Skall repeatedly points out, there is a difference between inspiration and copying. When you can put the two side by side and say “these are basically the same thing,” then it becomes a problem.
Varusteleka mainittu torilla tavataan.
If the originals weren't so ridiculously overpriced, maybe people would buy them instead of the counterfeits. ESPECIALLY since, as you said, the counterfeits are getting better these days. A $10 Sanrenmu is a better cost/benefit than a Sabenza. And I'm not out $500 if I lose it.
Levy Wilson but the Byrd meadowlark is $20 or less why knock off a cheap knife?
Cant cough up the price? Dont get the product. If you made knives and someone took your idea and sold them for less, you would get pissed.
+D If I was a designer getting my ideas ripped off, that would be a sign that there's demand for my products and I need to figure out how to cut costs to make it more affordable to the people wanting them. Basic economics shit. Like +germanprepper said, Spyderco has figured this out and they're pumping out $20-$30 knives. (With that case it sounds like someone is buying the knives right from the factories and rebranding them, but who knows.) People that buy knives as some sort of fashion statement, or they buy knives specially for the brand name, are the minority with knife sales. People buy knives to use them. This is why the counterfeits are getting better, they need to compete by being useful.
Point still stands someone put a lot of recources into R&D and now someone is making cheap knock-offs in china. Sure spyderco could participate in child labour and that would make their blades less expensive, but they would not want that. Basic economy shit, as you put it, demands that the most efficient producer wins the race. However if companies like spyderco keep getting beaten by these no name chinese brands, they will stop innovation. This deprives the market from their designs etc.
Simple put, they invested into their designs and should not have to sit by whilst some knock-off brand reaps the benefits.
Also for using knives. Dont get a spyderco. Get a bird knife or some other cheap alternative. but dont get the knock-offs thats like buying a fake rolex "just to watch time"
I haven't had any ethical difficulty with the Ganzos in general, because even when they were obviously mimicking popular designs of established companies, they weren't faking logos and trademarks to deceive consumers, nor were they using comparable materials, nor were they in competing price markets with the originals. No harm, no foul, was/is my view. That applies to the Griptillian replicant, which is what, $20 compared to the Griptillian's $80+? Non-issue.
The Axis lock is also a non-issue, precisely because the patent expired. That makes the design legally open territory for any manufacturer, just as with other products, like pharmaceuticals (excuse me while I pop a generic Claritin). If there's any doubt that this applies to the knife world, check out LA Police Gear's "Fixed Blade Infantry Knife" which bears more than a passing similarity to Gerber's LMF II. How can they do that? The patent expired, so LAPG made their own version that sells at less than 1/2 the price.
The Meadowlark thing is more troubling though. I initially didin't even think about the Byrd line, which is the kind of low-cost variant that I think other makers should develop. The problem here is how well Ganzo is actually doing this. The steel (whether or not it is 440C) has better retention than 8Cr13MoV (in my experience), the fit and finish is reliably good, the knives consistently come razor sharp, the clip/lanard hole design is better, the lockback is more ergonomically designed (for release), they offer a variety of colors, and all at a lower cost. They're doing this better than Spyderco! Really, Spyderco needs to just subcontract the Byrd line to Ganzo and be done with it, since they (Ganzo) seem more invested in perfecting the budget line than Spyderco is.
sure Ganzo make the Byrd line on a lower cost than Spyderco
they don't have to pay any designer nor had any projectation cost, they just rip off other people work
how old is a Bird line ? do you really expect me to believe Spyderco carries any design and project expenses after manufacturing design for years ?
cmon man you really cannot be THAT naive ...
so what? Ganzo still can cut their production cost by coping their knife, it's not illegal but at least don't deserve any prise
no, they cut a bit of initial investment which is NOTHING compared to tooling, facilities, workforce and materials needed to produce these knives at decent quality ... the engineering and prototyping in field of SIMPLE cutting tools doesnt cost milions ... this is not automotive or electronics industry, this is simple metal tool.
realistically what they cut is TIME and avoiding experiment/failure part of the process by taking what works ...
if they took design that is brand new and revolutionary in some sence i would see the "morally bad" part of this, but when they imitate decades old designs and utilize EXPIRED (which means non existent at this point) patents thats whole different story entirely
oh and they do not price gouge theyr customers like those "original" companies that sell knives with about $5-10 manufacture price for hundreds ...
personally I really like the knives from gearbest, my question would be if they can produce such good quality at the price then why are Benchmade, Spiderco etc so overpriced, for an edc folder yes D2 is better than 440c but in actual use is the performance good enough to justify a £100 difference?
Thanks for being honest Skall. I'd rather watch a video where you explain why you won't do something or take a clear stand than watch one where you're clearly not enjoying it or not ok with what you're doing.
Id be interested in seeing a video about value for money. I've owned swords ranging from $50 to $250, and the difference is blatant, the quality is easy to see. I've also owned knives(folders) ranging from $20 to $100, and I've got to say that the quality difference isn't there, or is practically non-existent. My favorite carry knives are all 20-30 dollars and I've had them for years, no problem. Anyway I'd be interested to hear your take on this
Chris Priest can you send those $20 knives back and get a new blade, spare pocket clips, new hardware?
Jon Anderson no, but then I've never needed to, despite use on wood plastic and the like. A few minutes sharpening at home does the trick, and the parts rarely come loose, if they do a wrench does the trick.
Jon Anderson and many of the more expensive knives don't offer the service you've mentioned. If you've used these services often enough to make the price worth it then I have to wonder if they're not just putting inferior materials into their knives.
This is my how I operate. Counterfeits, as in trying to pass off as the original, absolutely not. Any design under patent is also a no. That is theft, and I do not like thieves. Now if the patent has run out, I have no problem at all with another company producing a particular design. That is how patents are suppose to work. A patent protects an inventor from theft of their design and allows them time to produce and profit from their property. The patents expire eventually to allow the free market to function. So if the patent has expired, the design is tossed into the free market for anyone to pick up.
maybe, just maaaaybeee, the recognized brands ask too much for their knives?
especially when you now can get decent-good quality knives for under half the cost?
the counterfeiters could put some effort into design tho
The price difference comes from the better quality material isn't it?
not always it can be just for the brand name
Yes and no. Isn't only the materials, you're paying for a brand, we could argue about it all day long but, basically, why a mora cost 20 bucks and a "insert good brand here" cost 3 times more, same with leatherman, whoy it cost 5 times than a ganzo or... When you get brand image, you can ask for more money for the same product.
Ken Ransof Johannessen it's funny you mention that. I'm a cook. I have expensive knives that require ridiculous maintenance, then I have these cheap knives from a commercial kitchen supply that are remarkably.... awesome. They clean and store easier, are more sanitary and ergonomic. I could literally buy 15 of them for the price my one Henkel.
While it is true that many big companies ramp up the price just because they can, you also have to consider their R&D. Of course you can sell knifes for cheaper when you can just copy an existing design vs coming up with, testing and refining a product until it's ready to be released.
All the swords you review aren't giving any of the proceeds to the descendants of the original maker of that style of sword. Literally everything is a rip off/stolen design. In like every other industry/topic, everyone will recommend the cheaper stolen designs over the overpriced ones that work the same. People being stuck up about knife designs is kinda ridiculous to me, does anyone care about stolen hammer or wrench designs? TV designs? Couch designs? Axe designs? No. Not ever.
the bored through cylinder was patented by rollin white for smith and weston, when the patent expired every gun manufacture that made cap and ball revolvers switched to bored through cylinders and brass self contained cartridges for revolvers. would that not be someone blatantly ripping off another company? colt and everyone else did it. and 95% of semi auto pistols are clones of the 1911's concept of design, including some that are direct clones of the look, like kimber. if a patent is expired it is fair game, this gives the original designer an opportunity to make money and then the rest of the world can refine it afterwards so that game changing tech doesn't stay in the hands of one person forever.
Skall, it is videos like this that make respect you as a content creator and a reviewer. Keep up the good work :)
0:00 Skall describes the new Star Wars movies
Good
Everyone says that about every sequel.
There was a time when people like you were saying the same thing about Episode 6.
Kick Saunders just,no....
No what?
Ye
I agree with the first but I don't think something like the axis lock should be permanently owned by a certain company. Ultimately it's a simple locking mechanism, not some kind of revolutionary tech. If Cold Steel or any other reputable company was to make a knife with a similar locking mechanism, it would be fine IMO. At some point, stuff like that becomes public knowledge and it influences other makers.
Cold Steel has made a knife with such a locking mechanism. Recon 1 and AK-47 folders, for example.
You say it's a simple mechanism..
The wheel is a simple tool, getting a wheel that can actually handle 200+mph took centuries.
Jon Anderson - Not really. It took few years. A few decades at best. To develop an engine that can accelerate a vehicle to such speeds took much more time. Before that, such wheels weren't needed, so people weren't even trying to develop such things.
The first car to reach a speed over 200 mph was Sunbeam 1000 HP Mystery and it was made in 1926. First really practical automobiles with internal combustion engines were made from 1885. That's 41 years. Not centuries.
Now that you have come to this conclusion, how about reviewing some real benchmade knives. I’d love to hear your thoughts on those. I cannot understand why a knife would be $200.
Cald Desheft He has some videos about knives around that price. Just need to look back a little :)
Cald Desheft I'm not a knife expert but I think it's about the design, I can't imagine that coming up with an original and practical design is easy.
Abdullah Ashahwan well I mean there are so many knives and knife makers. That you would have to be very careful to not step on any toes. Also if there are no patton then it forces company to either get one, or lower there prices to compete. However copying there logo is messed up because now your are really trying to rip something off.
Abdullah Ashahwan part of it is quality. Those knives are made with steels that will keep an edge longer, not corrode/rust just by sitting on a shelf, and will stand up to more abuse. They also have better fit and finish; tolerances are better, blades are generally more centered, actions are smoother, etc. And they'll repair/replace the thing if it does happen to break from regular use.
Part of it is due to the knife collecting hobby and the collectability of these knives, but as someone who owns knives from $13 to $1300, I can tell you that most of the time, there is a better quality as you go up the price scale.
Last thing to note: the idea of diminishing returns. You'll find this in nearly any product, knives, watches, cars, pens, etc. I suggest you look up some videos if you're not familiar with the concept.
Being US made raises the price, steel type raises the price...admittedly, I wouldn't pay $200 for a BENCHMADE knife, but Spydercos, maybe.
You know what I would love to see more?
Reviews and test of kitchen knives/cooking equipment.
I, like I imagine most penniless students, do not own, nor plan to buy anytime soon, a sword, but I do have a need for some versatile cutting implements that can cut a slab of meat properly and don't require sharpening every time you cut a tomato.
Benchmade can't have anything against Ganzo using the locking mechanism, the patent has expired. If they don't want people using their tech then they can invent something new and patent that. Supporting them against others using it defeats the whole point of the patent system :/
Mechanical Menace also,benchmade prices are ridiculous
i am sorry but i think its the fault of the original maker that those exist and go strong. if i have a knife worth 20 of material and assembly and maybe another 20 on design but it costs 200 just for the name of the company on it, it rips of the customers.
I mean, i'm not trying to defend the 200 bucks one, but everything is cheaper to make in china..
R&D is not free.
Nothing is free, it is their decision to spend money on something. Nobody promised them any income
If the 'zomgripoff' knife companies didn't spend money on research, design, refinement and marketing, what exactly will 'valueknife' companies produce?
The same exact knives they produced last year. Forever.
we are literaly making knifes for thousands of years. there is not much to research, ste steel industry does that. there is also an limited ammount of alloys. yes, design is a thing but thats basicaly it. and to pay ten times the price for a slightly different design isnt realy good imo
It's nice to have a principle 👍 keep up the good work Skall
I personally don't really mind about knockoff tho, since I'm not rich and live in developing country, a much cheaper option is always welcome
I will buy the "original" when they offer the same quality to price ratio as ganzo. The big name brands are lot of the times ridiculously overpriced for what they are and they only really worth it to the collectors and the extreme users. Hell I even saw people comparing these knifes to the originals and a lot of the times they held up (sometimes they even faired better than the original). The thing is that they aren't even in competition with each other, the people buying ganzos aren't the same who buy spydercos or benchmades. I don't like the fact that Skal is done with these knifes, but this is his channel, he can do what he wants.
Also they aren't counterfeits, they don't say the original branding anywhere. They are copys or maybe homages. Also a seller on ebay or on geatbest using terms like "axis lock" isn't the same as ganzo using it on their official spec list.
>they aren't counterfeits, they don't say the original branding anywhere
this is so true, skally is blatantly misrepresenting this
Wish more people would read this comment.
100% agreed. I see this so much, and people refuse to buy for the better price because its not the original. It is an awful cycle that disallows improvement to the original. If all the consumer leave the original product for a cheaper and more efficient one the original will have to get better to succeed. This cycle is especially apparent in phones, with higher performing phones than the iPhone x available at less that half the price. Sad, reall.
They are horribly overpriced. There is no question about it. I personally don't know why someone would want to throw away that much money on a knife, and I own 1000+$ swords. >__>
These rip-off's are still scum.
Keep in mind when you're buying Kershaw, Benchmade, Spyderco, ect. - you're also buying a warranty. Good luck getting something serviced on your Ganzo knife. Meanwhile, I can shoot an email out to Kershaw and get replacement parts and free sharpening (not that I need it). Benchmade will pretty much replace anything if they can and will re-blade broken blades ridiculously cheap. Again: good luck gettin gthat with your Ganzo.
There is also the thing of blade steel. I don't trust Ganzo to have the quality assurance and control to have 440C and at a consistent HRC hardness heat treatment. If Benchmade, Kershaw, Spyderco, ect. (all of who have U.S. factories) don't have what they're advertising, they open themselves up to class-action lawsuits due to false advertisement - so they have an incentive to make sure that what they claim to be offering to you is, in fact, true. Ganzo does not.
This is a big part of why I watch, Skall. You show integrity in your reviews, and you're honest and upfront about what you think of a product.
Keep up the good work.
I dont think knockoffs are bad if the patent expires if it says which patent it uses. I only think its bad if they dont say its a copy or if its a bad quality copy.
katzofant that would be the definition of a counterfeit I believe. It's not a bad thing to take a concept and improve on it. Straight out copy something, make it worse than the original is quite frankly fraud since they rarely states it's a subpar copy.
+Johan Ohgren
An actual conterfeit would be ripping off the brand name.
Copying an expired patent is completely legal and there is no problem with that.
I started collecting knife's and bladed weapons. Im so glad I found your channel and you have taught me so much about weapons.I love your channel thank you.
I do not even care. It all looks the same but different for the most part anyway. He holds two up and all I see are differences. If I want a knife, I want a knife, I don't want to have to study and memorize every knife ever made and then try to decide if the three bolts holding a clip on are too identical to another three bolts holding a clip on.
Is it a counterfeit if they are both made in the same factory? Referring to the Ganzo and Spyderco
i assume so, if an artist paints a picture and prints it at a printing store, but someone steals the design and prints it at the same place... yea you get the picture :P
As long that second person isn't company. It's not theft or anything like that.
And that second person can sell print
I also dont have a problem with counterfeits. If they are the same as the original... then what do I pay for in the original? The brand? No thanks...
If you ever decide to reconsider the counterfeit/ripoff/"inspired by" issue, here's my two cents. You're such an honest reviewer and product/service endorser, Skall, that you always handle it in the classiest possible way. You're upfront about what it's a copy of, the difference in expected and received qualities of genuine and fake, and the fact that the design must be credited to a different creator. I think the usefulness of these kinds of reviews lies in the cost savings. I'd rather see you review a real $20 knife than a $13 knockoff, because what's the point in ripping off $7? But when the real deal is a $200 pocket folder, and a counterfeit claims same design and similar performance for a fraction of the price, it's somewhere between entertaining and informative to find out how well they deliver. The examples of surprisingly good quality knockoffs might also tip you off to brands with original designs giving the same quality execution at discount prices, which would be worth bringing to light.
If something works, copy it. I don't have anything against that. I'd say counterfeiting is different, because then you're dishonest about what you're selling.
Good point. And people are so vague about that - why protect only specific design features. Why not regulate every thought and idea that was expressed?
As a capitalist these knives sound great, I mean they are almost exactly the same as the originals in both looks and quality but ten times cheaper. I don't see the problem.
You should send them to Jörg Sprave so he can make another *Knife Jousting Tournament* :)
While questionable steel is common from a lot of Chinese companies, Ganzo is known for using high quality 440C & D2 with good heat treats.
Been using a Ganzo for 2 years as EDC and camping pocket knife, no problems so far
I didnt think the axis lock a Benchmade exclusive. the old Coldsteel Recon-1 series had axis locks too.
Love my Ganzo's! The 440C blade steel holds a edge very well!
I really like how Skallagrim makes a point and stand by it. Cool video as always! Much love from a fan from Brasil!
Thanks man. This is why I follow you. Honesty, integrity, and genuine interest in the subject and craft as a whole. Keep doing what your doing.
These ganzo blades really piss me off. A video needed to be made and you were brave enough to post it. Congrats i back it!
Not counterfeits. Just heavy inspiration. Like a 1911 style handgun, trainers that look the same but one has a big brand name. Yeah i would not spend 200 for a name. Counterfeits copy the name too. If it has the name of the big brand, then yeah that's a counterfeit, and i probably would not buy it.
Thumbs up for saying your done with counterfiet knives and with the whole adpocolypse. You sir gained my respect.
The original notion behind copyright, patent and trademark laws was not to extend a sort of all encompassing protectionism for inventors (though it has become that over the years, largely due to lobbying from companies like Disney). It was to create a robust commonwealth of ideas and a healthy competition based market. Originally an inventor had a very limited time in which to exclusively profit on their invention. After which it fell into the commons. This opened up good ideas to being made better and created the necessity for inventors to constantly innovate. What it has become has stagnated innovation to no small degree.
So while it is most the most ethically correct thing to purchase products from the authentic maker, their licensed users, or their authorized distributors. It isn't necessarily the most morally correct thing. You admit that these so-called counterfeits are not necessarily bad knives. And even that it's at least possible for them to be better in some respects. After nearly 30 years of legal exclusivity or prerogative on his intellectual properties (and the prospect of at least 70 years more, even after Sal Glesser dies). You have to ask the honest question. Is that fair to invention itself and the spirit of innovation? It really comes down to a deeper question. Do you think ethics can stand without moral backing?
The fact that Spydrco and Benchmade make the same knives but are many times more expensive says to me that they are overselling the knife based on their brand. The fact that Ganzo can make a very similar knife for at a very similar quality proves to me that they deserve my money more than someone who wants me to pay double just to have their name stamped on the knife. The companies aren't even really competing with each other anyway, Ganzo are selling knives to regular people who need a pocket knife and Spyderco/Benchmade are selling the same knives, over prices, to obssesive knife collectors. A normal person should have the opportunity to buy a knife too, and not just the rich weirdos obssesed over a brand name
I feel like the makers of phonebooks are going to come for you one day Skall
Seth mason but he may be the only one using their product at this point.
In my personal opinion I just can’t see anything wrong with someone else using the axis lock in particular. I’m not saying it’s ok to steal the whole design of someone’s knife, obviously!!!! However if no one but benchmade was ever allowed to use axis locks, I just find that a little ridiculous.
Actually, S&W held for some years patents for metallic cartridge revolvers that kept the other makers (notoriously Colt and Remington) using cap&ball or have to pay them royalties. The moment the patent expired, all makers in the world could make the "modern" revolvers without paying S&W, and the rest is history.
I know, very simplified, but nobody reads walls of text in youtube ;-)
I bet those Ganzo knives still have better quality control than the original benchmade knives Which is a real shame
i have mixed feelings about counterfeit knives. I'm pretty much against any counterfeit, whether it's a knife, clothing, electronic etc. but i'm also the kind of person who uses his knife as a tool and not as a showpiece that should be carressed and oiled every night. I'm not sure if i want to spend hunderds of euro's on a knife just to get it dirty, scratched up and beaten. Maybe the best way for me is to get a cheaper second hand quality knife (or get a more affordable quality knife).
I do have to add that i have never owned a good quality knife, just because i dont think im worth it. Still using my old grandfathers knife up to this day. It is time to find something else as this knife is getting quite thin.
I'm glad I live right next to the Spyderco factory in the US. I've had over 30 knives from there and only bought 2 online but 1 was a counterfeit.
I don’t understand the moral quandary about reviewing the knock offs. Some of your subs may go out and buy them as a result, and save money and be happier for it. So what if it hurts a massive companies (like cold steel just as an example) bottom line?
Ganzos are a good way to try a knife design that costs 3 times as much if not more to see if you like it enough to buy the real deal it is how I started getting into Benchmade knives ie buying ganzo's that are similar enough to get a feel for it. The bedlam is the best example bought the knock off and with in 3 week of owning it went and ordered the real deal . Sorry but not everyone has 160 to 350 to risk on a knife unsure if they will like it once in hand , You can say well if you do not like it sell it yeah you can but you will take a massive hit on the price if you used the thing at all so I will keep buying Ganzo knives when I see one with a design similar to one I wanna try .
You get what you pay for. People put effort into their passion, not the replica. Sometimes that's fine, usually not. Logitec vs sony. Coldsteel vs bench made.
Bear Bones you don't get what you pay for, if you buy from CS.
I hope you don't let this stop you from reviewing "up and coming" brands.
I like hearing about quality products from smaller companies.
I like those Chinese knives and collect them. I could never afford the brand knives.
if you would go for quality instead of quantity you could afford them.
That is not a valid argument in my opinion nelson. If you like things, anything the normal habit for a human being is to get more of that thing. While I don't approve of all counterfeit-ish knives the point here is that sometimes companies really do think that they have the right to monopoly and triple down the price of their products, without counterfeits that come around when the temp creative exclusive rights finally go away there is no competition to bring the products down to reasonable prices.
I know for a fact that 90% of all brand named high priced knives are indeed not worth half of what they charge for what you are getting. It almost is abuse to the consumer to keep your prices so damn high, that should be saved for when you start releasing a new product and sell enough to pay for the idea and production processes you created, but to flatline right there and stay so high in price needlessly is just criminal to the average consumer.
The only knives that I think are truly worth hundreds and up are completely hand made one of a kind knives, at that point its like art and there is only one original, I'd have no problem paying hundreds for something with that sentiment, but mass produced knives!? Especially folders, no damn way am I wasting money forever on something there are thousands of just dangling off somebody's pocket.
No, I could not. I want more than 1 or 2 knives in my collection. Yet I also want the best quality available that is within my budget. If the Chinese knife manufactureres offer this, I take it - why don't the big brands do it with a low-level brand with a similar price with a couple of their designs, or old designs? Obviously, producing them is not that expensive. Also the Chinese manufacturteres have their own designs, too, they do not offer the "rip-offs" only. And honestly, a knife connoisseur would never pick the Chinese stuff over the original, if he thinks that the brand and not the end product is the way to go. I would love to own more real Spydercos, high quality Böker knives, or even a cool Benchmade. But: Ain't gonna happen. I choose to have 10 Chinese knives instead of 1 or maybe 2 "brand" knives. If I lose a Chinese knife or if I want to gift one, I can take the loss or just do it. I just do not have the funds for the expensive stuff. They are tools, and if they break, well, better a 10 $ knife breaks than a 70 $ knife, especially if both have a comparable quality level... or if I lose them. Or take them apart and accidentally wreck them.
Look it that way: If you buy a car, as a real car person, you of course buy a Mercedes, or a BMW, maybe a Porsche. Why wouldn't you, it offers one of the best qualities all around, and carries the prestige. Yet people buy their KIA and Hyundai and Dacia (car manufactureres rip off a lot, too...) cars. Why? Because some people CAN spend 40,000+ $ for a car, some have trouble paying off a car that costs "only" 12,000 $. And as long as the "cheap" knives are out there, legal to buy, and maintain their incredible price to quality ratio, I buy them until I am rich enough to have a choice. Because right now, I have the choice between no knife at all, or Chinese ones.
Also I suspect that a big portion of the price of the "brand" knives is the brand itself, not any real cost. I could argue, why do people buy industrial made knives? Just buy custom knives only. In fact, I would buy one if I can.
I highly disapprove of counterfeiting or ripping-off. But they offer what I would not be able to afford, and since people like to believe that it is a free market, I aim for the lowest price possible.
Ganzo make the byrd knife under contract in the same factory in China, so the two knives you showed the Ganzo f759m and the Byrd meadowlark were both made by Ganzo, Ganzo also make the Delica for Byrd, Byrd have out sourced their knives to chinese factories.
Oftentimes, chinese companies are hired out to produce knives. The designs are sent to china, and finished knives are sent back. In the US, the company that designed the knife has a bunch of overhead, and sells the knife at a markup to cover administrative costs, server costs, marketing, and of course brand name. But the chinese companies also produce enough to be sold in china, without that companies overhead, and as a result can be sold at a way lower price This doesn't hurt the US companies profit, and is only beneficial to consumers. WIth the advent of the internet, its now easy to purchase knives direct from china, including knives not meant for the US market. Doesn't happen all the time, but ultimately it is easy to judge without seeing the whole picture.
Noooooo :( :(. I got a Ganzo g740 for Christmas, and I was super happy with it, my first good knife. I can't find any Benchmade model that looks like it yet, but I can't help but feel a little bit sad about the possibility. Hopefully this one is actually theirs, I love the design, and the quality is very good. I'll keep looking at Benchmade's website.
I joined this channel for your older knife reviews and abuse testing (which we dont get anymore lately), but i certainly didint sub for moralizing and if theres something i hate more than moralists than its hypocrites ... you either dislike knock offs and you dont do reviews on then and we dont have to listen your whining every time you touch some (like the katana). OR you do the review cause its for free.
Especially then this is not a counterfeit soled with a BYRD logo, its knock off and a good value knife on top, and last not least the BYRD has worse steel and costs around 30 bucks in my country which is not 'so-so' difference but 3times more, and TBH after gettin this knife i even might get the BYRD for the design, but i dont rly like to support companies such as SPY and their overpriced policy of knives with worse steel costing 3 times more....with this im leaving the channel, wish you good luck.
I love clones. More competition means more choice for the buyer. If someone else can do the same thing as you, but cheaper, then they get the job. That's just how the market works. If they're using different materials, then it's not a clone. It's up to the buyer whether they want to pay more for better materials. If the original is $20 vs these counterfeits for $13, then they're doing a good job in maintaining low prices on the original through their competition. If the original decides to charge too much, then the counterfeits have a higher margin to use better materials and become true clones. This ensures buyers get the best product for the cheapest price.
Don't give up on budget knives all together though. Remember the Kershaw Skyline.
PRAISE THE SKYLINE!
Skal,
as far as I know in the Kanadian law the design has to be only 20% different from the original not to have a patent infringement.
There is only ONE folding knife anyone needs: a Victorinox lock blade!
Did the 'branded' knife makers get to you?
they may not like it but with an expired patent they cant do anything about it.
I have seen something very similar top that access lock on many sog knives. I don't know if it is exactly the same. I don't have one of reach in front of me to compare. But it does look at function very similar.
Why am I watching this? I have no idea, I don't even own a knife or trying to buy one.
Yeah me too weird right just like Skall I guess?
My opinion-if the fake knife is claiming to be something it's not, THAT I will avoid. So if a knife is labeled as a Cold Steel, or Benchmade, or whatever but isn't really(ie, a true counterfeit), or if the knife claims to be made of Elmax/M390 or whatever, when it's clearly 440A or something, those are no go's for me. However, if the knife is just an aesthetical copy, doesn't claim to be made by some other company, and admits it's just 440c or 8Cr13 or whatever cheaper steel, I really don't care. Sure, if the original knife is $20, I'll get that rather than a $13 clone, but if it's a Ganzo 345whatever with 440C for $13 or the same knife as a $164 Spyderco with S30V, sorry Spydie, but I'm goin Ganzo, cause I don't consider the difference in steel and being made in Japan to be worth the $151 difference in price.
I like Ganzo knives, they are good quality and avaible for affordable price. I love my G753 and it succesfuly serves me as an EDC knive.
I prefer the knock off of Ganzo called Gonzo Knives...
Shad8x they disappoint me by just knocking off other brands
Spock Kirk true, they’ve shown that they can make knives with good, original designs so I think they should stick to that.
Ever bought store brand foods?
Would you trust it in an emergency? Just saying
Nice. Good for taking a stance. It would be nice to hear what the difference (or see examples of) inspired by and counterfeit. I know it a stark difference but I think it would still be cool.
I own a meadowlark 2, and I have to agree with you about the first knife. It's almost surprising how similar the two are.
Ahhh sheet he basically dropped the mic (a kind of pommel you sing into) on this one
I wouldn't be surprised if Skall kills himself because of people like you
An actual original pommel joke! A species long thought to be extinct!
I own a cheaper Scottish basket hilt so the blade is not great. The guard however seemed to be very strong despite that. I was playing with some techniques and wanted your oppinion on half swording with a basket hilt.
Then what is your opinion on TV's and other electric devices that look all the same?
Apples and oranges. TVs and electronics don't generally require a whole lot of detail in physical design, rather it's the features and what's inside that are important. That being said, you will most certainly know when you buy a lesser quality knockoff of electronics.
Off topic but I was wondering. Have you ever made a video covering the trident? I’d really like to see a video on that by you.
You look tired and Ill, you okay daddy?~
SnowXy you stop that
Lol, pommel throw time...
jordan clark lol
Looks just a tad sleepy to me get some shuteye skall :D
Stop,you have violated the law, pay the court of fine or serve your sentence.
I used to buy cheap knives and knockoffs a lot when i was younger. Every couple months i was looking for a new knife because they would get loose and clips would break within first few weeks. I bought a gerber, and a bench made back in 2000 and havent bought another pocket knife since.
The bench made was mini pika and the gerber is the air ranger model. Both have held up well to daily use with 8 years of military service, the bulk of which was cutting paracord and the occasional seat belt. The mini pika has an odd butterfly design on the blade and iirc the packaging said something about bali song. I see nothing on the blade about bali song other than the butterfly. Both clips have held up, i lost screws from both of them and a quick call to the manufacturers and i got sent replacement clips and screws.
After you've mentioned AXIS lock - you just sound hypocritical. There's no such thing as "general design". Someone invented a specific design and after some time more people start incorporating it into their products. Is it a time issue for you? When, according to you, it is now okay to rip off... I meant use a "general design"?
And in regards of "being inspired by but adding something new" - it's not always a good idea. "general" designs are the way they are because they've survived the test of time; altering them is something unnecessary.
You cant deny that there is a difference between using an aspect like a locking mechanism and just copying the entire design of a knife
D
It is irrelevant to the topic in my comment.
Exactly. You can go to almost any dollar store, walmart, or gas station in America and buy one of the "medowhawk" for knives for 2-5 dollars. The only difference is that Ganzo and Spyderco just made theirs from materials that are better than plastic and stainless steel.
If i remember the axis is just off of patent or about to be. They have a new disign there starting to come out with in blades like the Benchmade Anthem.
I'm willing to bet that within 5 - 10 years we'll start seeing more original designs coming from these Chinese companies. I suspect that what they're doing right now is the same as their military industry, they copy other people's designs in order to learn quickly without all of the trial and error. Once they've figured that they've learned all they can they'll start branching out and creating their own original designs, plus, by that point people will be more familiar with the brands and will be more inclined to buy their original designs because they've found out over the years that, based on their counterfeits, they make good knives.
Riceball01 - you are correct. We've seen that in other places and other industries already, not to mention that Ganzo has already made a name for themselves.
Thanks. Eat shit.
greensloth10 I wouldn't say that. You have to understand that China was late to modernize and that modernization was interrupted by the Cultural Revolution which set them back by decades and they're now trying to catch up. So, instead of re-inventing the wheel they just copy the wheel in order to learn how to make wheels themselves. Is it the most honest way of doing things, probably not, but I can't say I blame them, if I were seriously behind the rest of the world and wanted to catch up in the shortest amount of time I'd probably do the same. After all, we're not talking about taking a test at school or getting your driver's license, we're talking national pride and improving one's country's economic status.
greensloth10 So you're saying that if you were the Premier/President of China, or your own country in the same boat as China you wouldn't do the same? You'd take the long, slow route and basically re-invent the wheel and hope that the rest of the world slows down so that you can catch up in another 20 - 30 years? Good luck with that.
There already are Chinese companies like this, Kizer, WE, Real Steel, Reate... and others. China is showing that there are no longer just associated with the $5 quality flea market knives of old, and are producing high end and well made knives with premium materials.
I'm holding my Gerber Covert, and it has an axis lock. Don't know if they called it that, though.
None of these knives are Counterfeit Knives, vaguely looking like other knives a counterfeit does not make. Going by this logic of "counterfeiting" all cars are Counterfeit Model T Fords, you should just keep doing reviews on these knives, seeing as this company is making knives of great quality for really cheap prices, these other companies should just stop making overpriced knives.
Thanks for the honesty Skall, I’m (unfortunately) one of the many who LOVES many of the high dollar designs of BM and SPY, but can’t afford/justify spending $120-$220 for ANOTHER knife, especially with my many expenses...
I really like the 712...
It’d probably make you groan, but I think I’ll try to get one because of how you favorably you talk of it...
But to make up for it, I’ll get a CaraCara and Tenacious as well...🤗
there's a difference between affordable and clone.
I'm too am done with counterfeit knives and anything that I might need to deffend or use in a life-death situation... Not that I would be anytime soon in a life-death situation but I was really dissappointed with a knife that was pretty stout and it FELT really great, but when I had to cut just some pieces of wood the knife lock system gave up and I nearly tored my hand open