I believe that regardless of the timing of the rapture in relation to the tribulation, we need to be sure that we are ready by having accepted Christ into our hearts so that when he returns we may spend eternity in heaven with him.
Accepting Christ into our hearts is not what saves us, believing on him and trusting everything he did on the cross and believing he rose on the third day is.
why is everyone worried about,pre trib.,mid trib.post trib.I would be more worried if I'm truly saved.And be more concerned with knowing my savior and Lord Jesus Christ,and bringing people to Christ.That is what matters the most.
Because people need to be prepared for distress and obsession and not a false sense of a flying away before the first seal. When the rapture doesn't occur as people have expected, it will cause many to feel forsaken, forgotten, lied to, and left behind in return will cause a falling away from the the faith.
i got a vision this month of an old woman that was closed to me who died 4 years ago, she wore a wedding dress like a bride, i know what it means n i pray she shall receive the grace of God n b invited to the Feast of the Lamb. it saddened me very much as well as i was very happy to see her. i didnt ask God for this rapture visions, it came by the mighty grace of the Holy Spirit from Jesus Christ. i'm 50, hope can still make it.
I read and listen to (audio bible) Revelations everyday. I understand the letters to the church and have looked in the history of the actual churches and why he says what he says to each church to know that those issues are shadows of the issues the "church" faces today. what are your thoughts on 1 Corinthians 10:13, Romans 12:12, Romans 5:3, Romans 8:18, 1 Peter 5:10, 1 Peter 4:12, James 1:12, James 1:2-8, Revelation 2:26, Revelation 3:21? May Yah bless you with Wisdom
yes, you will have tribulation, He did not say you will go through "The Tribulation" time of Jacobs trouble. That's when God focuses His attention on Israel to fulfill His promise to them, Rom11:25
It is quite a possibility that what this man stating about the parallels of Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 is amazingly related.. An Incredible inside look at the beginning of the Tribulation the first 3 1/2 years.. At can agree with this man on this.. many wont but we all have our opinions..
Personally, I think that the pre tribulation rapture position is correct. However there are many Godly people that I respect who RESPECTFULLY disagree with me. This is like any other debatable nonessential doctrine. There is room for opinion and it is not a Satanic lie, etc. Personally, I think all of you who are truly in Christ who disagree with me on this issue are in for a great surprise. I get tired of of the condescending remarks from either school of thought toward the other.
A good place to start is a proper exegesis of Daniel 9:24-27, then read Matthew 13:24-30 and Matthew 13:38-40 if you are seeking the Truth regarding this doctrine.
The first to separate the rapture from the second coming was a Baptist minister named Morgan Edwards (1722-1795). He wrote a paper while in seminary that outlined a hypothetical form of mid-tribulationism, and years later published his thesis. Within forty years of his death, Edward Irving (Catholic Apostolic Church), and shortly thereafter John N. Darby (Plymouth Brethren), both of England, were teaching pre-tribulationism.
I 100% agree with you about the Elders. I 100% agree with 1Cor 6:23, but it is clear that those that saints that are with Hamashiach are the 144000 (12,000 from each tribe of Israel) Rev14:1. Love how you think I will be one of the virgins who does not have oil for my lamp. I am ready and waiting with my oil already. I'm not one who is walking around waiting for signs and thinks he has time, but I am awake and watchful. I long for His return. Check yourself and pray for wisdom
Hi Daniel. Let us look at Matthew 24:29 to start. It is a summary account of the 3rd woe and 7 vials of wrath commenced by the 7th trumpet blast recorded in Revelation. Matthew 24:30-31 is the summary account of Revelation 19 that happens after the 7 vials of wrath are poured out. Note also that since Matthew 24:31 is post the 7 vials and 7th trumpet, the trumpet in Matthew 24:31 is a subsequent trumpet to the series of 7 recorded in Revelation. We will call it the 8th trumpet for clarity...
2 Thessalonians 2:7 (KJV) 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he (the Holy Spirit+the Church) who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (And then the Anti-Christ comes to power...) There is a reason why Jesus addresses the Church in rev 3&4, and then never mentioned again until after the trib...Revelation 3:10 (KJV) 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Keep looking up brothers and sisters, ignore all these distractions!
McProseph Gaming The AC will be in power when he is revealed and by that time have already done his work. Then the Lord will reveal him by the truth and brightness of his coming 2nd Thessalonians 2 verse 7and 8 .Jesus comes once in the clouds , once . After tribulation. Don't fool yourself .
the book of revelation is not a jiggle saw puzzle and can be easily understood. tribulation means prosecution, not wrath. All true Christians throughout time have and will find themselves in tribulation. It is a promise by Jesus that as a Christian you shall be prosecuted or have tribulation for his name sake and for the word of God. have joy for this for he has overcome the world.
2 thessalonians 2:6 explain that rapture happens before tribulation, because Antichrist will reveals himself after the church is taken away because the power of the Holy Spirit who restraining him will be taken
Can you provide scriptural proof (not saying there isn't any) for the your stance that the Multitude is the "left behind". I never said or even brought up the topic of who is and isn't getting crowns.... the Elders already had crowns, so why would I think only modern day saints get crowns.? You must be reading someone elses post but responding to me because you have assumed a lot about me just off my few words.
If the Lord returned at the last angel who sounded in Rev, what about Jude14, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, how does that fit in?
- yes but who will rightly divided scripture to prove the truth. Ps 51 "I will take refuge in the shadow of your wings until the disaster has passed." Ps 91 "He shall cover thee with His feathers, and under His wings shalt thou trust." (Keep can mean protect). Problem is, people have 'preconceived' doctrines and approach "rightly dividing" from a position to prove what they were taught by their piers / pay check. Show us (scripture only) in sequential order from both sides without presumptions.
Should the trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16 be tied to the 8th trumpet of Matthew 24:31? Now note also that the first resurrection of Revelation 20 is post the return of the Lord summarized in Matthew 24:30-31 but detailed in Revelation 19. If the body of Christ is in the 70th week of Daniel, then they will not be snatched till that resurrection that is not only post wrath, but also post His return to earth to destroy the antichrist. And if you noted the sequence of...
Yes you are right, we are hidden from the Wrath of God, not the tribulation period. This is where every pre tribber is wrong. Tribulation isn't wrath. If it was, then God poured his wrath out on the disciples of Jesus as they were stoned and tortured for their testimony of Jesus. That isn't the case though, they went trough tribulation, not wrath.
John 142 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. Put that with 1Thess4, There is no mention of judgment here
@Musicman81Indy - there are many verses that can be given as proof for both sides: Rev. 3:10 'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.1 Thess. 5:9 - For God has not destined us for wrath... - J A Show Staff
Mark 8:23 - He took the blind man by the hand and led him outside the village. When he had spit on the man’s eyes and put his hands on him, Jesus asked, “Do you see anything?” 24 He looked up and said, “I see people - as trees - walking.” 25 Once more Jesus put his hands on the man’s eyes. Then his eyes were opened, his sight was restored, and he saw everything clearly. The Truth Is a Mirror
Unfortunately. but as expected for Pre-Trib teaching, the following passage from Scripture is omitted by Mr. Showers: "Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God." 2 Thes 2: 1-4 This passage tells us that the "rapture" [being gathered together, V1] does not occur until 2 events happen: 1] the apostacy [rebellion, V3 ], and 2] the Abomination of Desolation [V3-4] which occurs at the middle of the 70th week; [Dan 12:11 "And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days"; see also Dan 9:27]. So. How can the rapture happen prior to or at the beginning of the 7 years/70th week?
The pre tribulational rapture is the only true Bible teaching concerning the Lord Jesus Christ coming for His true Church of born again believers(John 3:3; 1Thess4:13-18). "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh"(Matt24:44). Satan's desire is for one to say, "...My lord delayeth his coming"(Matt24:48), to live in sin, and reject the pre tribulational rapture, which is the Lord Jesus Christ's timely unexpected return for His saints(Matt25:44).
Great post, I agree, from that passage it looks like we are here during God's wrath but like the Israel in Egypt, we are not harmed. The issue with that is that passage is right before Armageddon so could he be referring to coming as a thief prior to the battle? Also, consider Rev 15:2-6. It seems the plagues or wrath of God starts after those who are victorious over the beast is clearly seen in heaven, suggesting Rapture has already occurred, also note Rev. 3:10 concerning missing the wrath
However one hinging point could be considered the eminence theory. Pre tribulation has to stand upon the eminent return of Christ. Struggling to deal with "Antichrist revealed first" and many others in Matt 24. One can not brush these off by saying he is speaking to those who have been left in the rapture. Who was jesus talking to? What was the quetion in vs 3 that he was responding to?
2thess. 1:6-8 denies a Pre-tribulation rapture. Most of the time skipped over in these discussions. I wonder why. But it says the church receives rest from her persecutions when..? At the Pre-tribulation rapture? You certainly would think so. No. It says, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in flaming fire, dealing out retribution on HIs enemies. So how is that possible with a Pre-tribulation rapture? Please explain from this passage, without bringing other passages into the discussion - if you can.
I personally haven't studied the rapture enough to say whether or not it is before or after the tribulation, but to answer your question, if believers were to be put through the tribulation it would be for us to actually show that we believe and will do anything for God. Enduring to the end is mentioned a few times and is why I could see Christians having to go through it. If there is a pre-trib rapture, great.
Bro Mike, Accept JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOUR to have Eternal Life in heaven. We are the last generation so we will be Empower by the Holy Spirit to face Persecution that comes from Antichrist. We have the Blessed Hope of Resurrection in the Last Trumpet we shall rise whether death or alive we'll meet JESUS in the air. Then we shall reign with CHRIST for 1000years in our Resurrected body.
It is pretty straightforward in Daniel though. The timeline shows Jesus before the tribulation, so I don't know why so many want to latch onto post tribulation rapture lol.
"I am against your pillows where with ye there hunt the souls to make them them fly,and will tear them from your arms,and u will let the souls go,even those souls you hunt to make them fly"eziekiel 13:20 if some of u think ur flying away on a pre trib rapture this passage clearly shows god is against those trying to mislead his people and get them to fly away like the pre trib rapture teaches
Rev 14 1.And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. Note here in verse 1 that the Lamb of GOD is Jesus Christ who was sacrificed for our sins. The 144 000 are pictured as being "with the lamb." This is in contrast with the rest of the world who are pictured being with the Beast. [ch.13] the world wondered after the beast. so which side do u think u will stay with ?
Daniel Clarke """""""" post-tribbers are honestly concerned, in love, for our brethren""""" Then why do you misquote Mat 24? Postrib is impossible. You do not even have one verse to support postrib rapture.
+Jody Wolfe Your statement is partly correct. The believers, born again people, will be gone when the Mark of the Beast comes. However, if you read ch 14 in Revelation, you will see the Mark does not take place until after Jesus returns. Some of the _Dead_ will refuse the mark and be saved to live during the Millennium. Therefore, while the church as you say it, will be gone, there are people who will become followers later, who will face the mark and be beheaded for refusing it towards the end of the 42 months after Jesus returns.
Really Peter Rappit? Then show me the scriptures that show I am wrong. Come on wise speaker of the tongues, show the world. Because I know I'm right, and I can back it up with scripture. You can't back up anything, and never have been able to either.
The Greek word translated in English as “after” is meta. We find meta translated as “after” 88 times in the authorized King James Version, but translated as “with” 345 times and “among” five times. The overwhelming Scriptural evidence demands a Matthew 24:29 translation such as “without delay with the tribulation of those days…”rather than “immediately after the tribulation…”
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: ((and the dead in Christ shall rise first:)) [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. ((Dead first! Then and only then the living)) 1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. ((So the dead rise at the last trump. There is a reason y there are 7. And there's a reason y 7 is the last 1)) Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh ((last)) angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, ((Finished, done, no more to come. No 7 more years. Finished))
For example, where in scripture does it say "second coming"? Nowhere, in fact the old testament prophets had no reason to believe that the Lord's visitation would not see all prophecies concerning Him to be fulfilled in one visitation. People made the same mistake then that people are making today, then they read in the scriptures one visitation, today they read a second one. How confusing was the Lords reading of Isaiah 61:1 to those who could not discern the dispensational break.
John11:23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
The beginning of sorrows (birth pangs) began when Israel became a nation. This is illustrated in Revelation 12:1-2. When Israel shines forth as a nation (sun, moon and stars: Gen.37:9-10), the woman goes into labor....: the beginning of sorrows (birth pangs). Equally, in Matthew 24:29, when the sun, moon and stars are darkened...; tribulation will have ended and Israel is destroyed forever (Jer. 31:35-36).
Most Christians have been taught the next event on Gods end time calendar is the rapture of believers at the coming of the Son of Man, no one knows the exact day or hour, His coming could take place at any moment? Yet the Abomination of Desolation, the Antichrist, invades Jerusalem in Mat. 24:15, the rapture at the coming of the Son of Man takes place later in v30. So who comes first, the Antichrist or Jesus?
In Acts 1: 11 we read of a similar account.. Jesus is 'taken UP' it's exactly the same Greek terminology used for 'caught UP' in 1 Thessalonians 4: 17.. Caught up and taken up are both equal analogies to the rapture..Jesus was 'harpazo' and the church will also be 'harpazo' into the clouds/the air.
The first rider is the Holy spirit sent at the time Jesus prevailed on the cross and returned to the Father The first 5 seals are the beginning of the sorrows as described by Jesus, not the tribulation.
Here is the best example of one taking verses out of context and applying them to fit your believe, I hope the church is ready to live or die for Jesus.
Many pretribulationist authors re-quote Showers and Missler as authoritative evidence for "the seven days of huppa". However, the problem for the pretribulationists is that there is no evidence for the mythical seven days of isolation in the Tanakh. This necessitates their reliance upon tradition alone without biblical support, in order to validate their point. Ironically, even here they fail! Although the Talmud does give detailed information on Jewish wedding procedures, opinion seems to differ among the rabbis concerning these procedures in ancient times. In Talmudic times, the room where the marriage was consummated was huppa or chuppah. In other words the huppah was a later addition practiced during Talmudic period. The Tanakh refers to the wedding simply as the seven days of the feast (Genesis 29:27 Judges 14:12). Show less
The Talmud? As a Jew saved by grace, I am only interested in God's holy word, and not commentaries by men. The Talmud is not scripture. The Lord's servant is not to have anything to do with stupid and foolish arguments, for the Lord's servant shall not quarrel. We are here on Earth to evangelize the lost. Know the truth and be set free by the truth and then share the truth with others. Christ Jesus came into the world to testify to the Truth. Lord God Almighty, may we do the same!
+K Day -- The Bible says that the Rapture is Pre-Tribulation. I wouldn't be calling God's word a lie....... THIS: "when praises end of the firstfruits saints in the middle of the week" is not even in the Bible.. (WHY don't people just study the Bible??)
That's why we can't just go by one verse in the scriptures...or even cherry pick them, we must look at the bible as a whole and all scriptures pertaining to his coming. Anytime we read about his coming it happens when?
Careful, brother. I also speak in tongues, but we must be careful not to be divisive. If they acknowledge and know the true Lord Jesus, they are complete in Him. We are one brethren. The Bible is the Word of God, it doesn't change, and it is the written revelation of the true God. The unity of the brethren is real in the Lord Jesus apart from their acknowledgment of tongues or their understanding of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
What if the rapture ISN'T an external event, but an internal one. Why are we looking outside of ourselves to some futuristic event? Look WITHIN yourself for His appearing. When will you see this happen in you? Much of scripture you quote has already happened IN me, including revelation. It wasn't until I quit looking outside of myself for Him did He return WITHIN me. It's not going to happen all at once, but every eye will see Him, eventually.
Mr. Williams, these are the end times where scoffers will taunt, mock and riducule people of faith. You should really consider that if your wrong (which you are) you will be left behind. And when you want to change your mind it will be too late. You will go thru the tribulation and you will never be as sorry as you will be then. You will feed hate, fear, dread and anxiety like nothing you will have ever felt before. You will see the AntiChrist and very possible take the mark of the beast and be condemded to the Lake of Fire. The tragedy is the Lake was only meant for Satan and his angels but how many souls will Satan take with him into the fire? Please don't be one of them.
Just because Jesus is opening the seals does not mean it's his wrath. The sixth seal mentions wrath in it's presence tense ( for the great day of his wrath has come). God's wrath starts after the half hour of silence in heaven during the seventh seal. Christ descends from heaven to raise the dead first . When did John see Christ descending? SIXTH SEAL...there is no rapture before the first seal, second seal, third seal, fourth seal, fifth seal.... The rapture will occur in the sixth seal when Christ descends
At 1:00, you must understand the period of *Wrath IS NOT the Tribulation.* The tribulation is over when the wrath periods start. People confuse wrath with tribulation. *Add up the time lines given in Revelation, and you will it far exceeds a 7 year period.* How then, can anyone say 7 year tribulation? At 1:15, Daniel was not talking about a tribulation either. Jesus said we would all see the Abomination of Desolation before he calls for the gathering (Rapture).. Now let's do some math. At 1:42, he just said the Abomination shows up half way into the week. How then is there 7 years of tribulation even according to his own words? How is it he cannot understand the Abomination shows up before any rapture takes place? At 3:40, the bow is symbolic of God's promise's. Just as he promised not to destroy mankind or the earth with another flood. Therefore the rider is riding for God's word, it is the Holy Spirit. It conquers people over to Christ. I'm out at 4:57, and may return later to finish. Don't believe false teachers like this.
If the church is raptured before the tribulation and is married to christ in heaven what about the tribulation saints they never married christ rev. 6 opening the 5 seal the souls under the altar cried out for vengence and they were told to wait till thier fellow brethen were killed....so how could the married start without the entire church (tribulation siant r the church (called out) also...it doesn't fit...
Mat 24:31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
What poor times we live in! Those who amuse by raising some positive moods are now considered to be spiritual and loving! But there's no partiality with God, thankfully!
Post tribbers are forced to put the harpazo after the tribulation because they make false conclusions. They take similarities, ignore the details, and discern them as being the same. However a careful study of scripture will show that the Holy Spirit is meticulous in His wording and has instructed us to hold fast the form of sound words(2 Timothy 13), to try and discern those things that differ(Philippians 1:10), only then will we rightly divide the word of truth(2 Timothy 2:15).
@NickelsBuckingBulls That's just what I was thinking about last night. Any time his coming is mentioned it's always in singular form..even when Paul speaks about the order of the resurrection..Christ first and then we which are Christ's at his coming.
you take one scripture out of context and build your own theology around it? God is against magic charms, AKA witchcraft, if you don't believe in a rapture why do you reply?
Why do people think that those that believe in pre-tribulation rapture aren't really saved and get so angry with those that believe differently than others? I know I am Saved by GRACE through Faith, no works lest any man boast!! Hallelujah! Our works are as Filthy Rags! That's exactly WHY Jesus died! He bore each of our sins, past, present AND future! We were born sinners and will die sinners but thanks be to GOD ALMIGHTY for sending His Only begotten son begotten, HE paid the price and we are counted as righteous ONLY because of His Precious blood! We are told in the bible to Watch, to get ready, to encourage and comfort each other while we occupy and preach the Love of Jesus! It saddens me that some so called Christians are so quick to anger, confrontational, and irrational over the Truth of Gods word? Anyway, many blessings to all my brothers and sisters! Look up for our redemption draw nigh! Occupy and redeem! 😉
Here it is! Mike, Please read Revelation 12: 1-13 carefully, the whole chapter. Actually, scripture teaches " PRE-POST" RAPTURE & GATHERING, not just a Pre-Trib rapture. Please hear me out and let me explain. Understand specially verse 12::8 "And she (the pregnant woman) a symbol of the Universal True Christian Church , not the nation of Israel) gave birth to a son, a male who is about to shepherd all the nations with an iron sceptre and her child (a symbol of the Pre-tribulation Raptured Church!) was CAUGHT UP (Greek; HERPASTHE, a passive verb from "HARPAZO" meaning RAPTURED or SEIZED, KIPNAPPED BY FORCE ) to God and to His throne. Christ was not SEIZED VIOLENTLY BY FORCE to heaven to escape being devoured by the Great Red Dragon identified as the Devil or Satan! The symbol of the male son or boy could not possibly be identified as "Jesus the Christ-Child" There is no logic to the prophetic story if he is identified as Jesus Christ. Yes, He is to rule all nations with a iron rod. But so is the Church united with him at the rapture1 Rev 2:26 &27 "To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, i will give authority over the nations-He will rule them with AN IRON SCEPTRE. Since this "BOY"is to be RAPTURED BEFORE the "Rest of the Seed or children" of the Pregnant woman who will be severely persecuted by the Dragon for a time, times and half a tine or 3&1/2 years of THE GREAT TRIBULATION or 1260 days of persecution on the Tribulation Saints which is collectively the fleeing, hiding underground Church,. Symbolic "BOY" is correctly identified in Scripture as "THE PRE_TRIBULATIONAL RAPTURED CHURCH!" The 'rest of the chlldren" of the Pregnant woman are those great multitude who will come out of the Great Tribulation, (Rev 7:9-17) but are harvested and gathered by Christ's angels (Rev 14: 14_16) and (Matthew 13: 24-39 & 36-41) Parable of the wheat and weeds) & (Matthew 13:47-52 Parable of the FIsherman's net, These are also saved BUT PREWRATH and PRE 7OTH WEEK or BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD'S WRATH, THE LAST 7 YEARS OF DANIEL'S 70TH WEEK starts! (Rev: 8 to 11) when AT THE END OF THE AGE, the wicked "weeds" are burnt after the harvest of the good "wheat"are gathered into barns" and the "fishes" sorted out , the good ones collected and the bad ones thrown out to Hell , also the"vine of the earth" the ripen bad grapes' are sickled or cut and thrown into the winepress of GOD'S WRATH. (REV 14:17-20) So there are actually two phases or two gatherings of the Christian Church, the FIRST is a PRE-TRIB rapture by Christ Himself before Satan's short 3&1/2 years wrath (the Great Tribulation of God's saints) starts and the second, a POST TRIB gathering by His angels, after they goes through and come out of it, BUT PREWRATH or before GOD'S WRATH falls on the wicked! Does that adequately answer your question? Dr. Renald Showers is aware ONLY of a ONE phase Pretrib or Pre 7Oth week rapture! I BELIEVE IN TWO!
Here it is! Mike, Please read Revelation 12: 1-13 carefully, the whole chapter. Actually, scripture teaches " PRE-POST" RAPTURE & GATHERING, not just a Pre-Trib rapture. Please hear me out and let me explain. Understand specially verse 12::8 "And she (the pregnant woman) a symbol of the Universal True Christian Church , not the nation of Israel) gave birth to a son, a male who is about to shepherd all the nations with an iron sceptre and her child (a symbol of the Pre-tribulation Raptured Church!) was CAUGHT UP (Greek; HERPASTHE, a passive verb from "HARPAZO" meaning RAPTURED or SEIZED, KIPNAPPED BY FORCE ) to God and to His throne. Christ was not SEIZED VIOLENTLY BY FORCE to heaven to escape being devoured by the Great Red Dragon identified as the Devil or Satan! The symbol of the male son or boy could not possibly be identified as "Jesus the Christ-Child" There is no logic to the prophetic story if he is identified as Jesus Christ. Yes, He is to rule all nations with a iron rod. But so is the Church united with him at the rapture1 Rev 2:26 &27 "To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, i will give authority over the nations-He will rule them with AN IRON SCEPTRE. Since this "BOY"is to be RAPTURED BEFORE the "Rest of the Seed or children" of the Pregnant woman who will be severely persecuted by the Dragon for a time, times and half a tine or 3&1/2 years of THE GREAT TRIBULATION or 1260 days of persecution on the Tribulation Saints which is collectively the fleeing, hiding underground Church,. Symbolic "BOY" is correctly identified in Scripture as "THE PRE_TRIBULATIONAL RAPTURED CHURCH!" The 'rest of the chlldren" of the Pregnant woman are those great multitude who will come out of the Great Tribulation, (Rev 7:9-17) but are harvested and gathered by Christ's angels (Rev 14: 14_16) and (Matthew 13: 24-39 & 36-41) Parable of the wheat and weeds) & (Matthew 13:47-52 Parable of the FIsherman's net, These are also saved BUT PREWRATH and PRE 7OTH WEEK or BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD'S WRATH, THE LAST 7 YEARS OF DANIEL'S 70TH WEEK starts! (Rev: 8 to 11) when AT THE END OF THE AGE, the wicked "weeds" are burnt after the harvest of the good "wheat"are gathered into barns" and the "fishes" sorted out , the good ones collected and the bad ones thrown out to Hell , also the"vine of the earth" the ripen bad grapes' are sickled or cut and thrown into the winepress of GOD'S WRATH. (REV 14:17-20) So there are actually two phases or two gatherings of the Christian Church, the FIRST is a PRE-TRIB rapture by Christ Himself before Satan's short 3&1/2 years wrath (the Great Tribulation of God's saints) starts and the second, a POST TRIB gathering by His angels, after they goes through and come out of it, BUT PREWRATH or before GOD'S WRATH falls on the wicked! Does that adequately answer your question? Dr. Renald Showers is aware ONLY of a ONE phase Pretrib or Pre 7Oth week rapture! I BELIEVE IN TWO!
Here it is! Mike, Please read Revelation 12: 1-13 carefully, the whole chapter. Actually, scripture teaches " PRE-POST" RAPTURE & GATHERING, not just a Pre-Trib rapture. Please hear me out and let me explain. Understand specially verse 12::8 "And she (the pregnant woman) a symbol of the Universal True Christian Church , not the nation of Israel) gave birth to a son, a male who is about to shepherd all the nations with an iron sceptre and her child (a symbol of the Pre-tribulation Raptured Church!) was CAUGHT UP (Greek; HERPASTHE, a passive verb from "HARPAZO" meaning RAPTURED or SEIZED, KIPNAPPED BY FORCE ) to God and to His throne. Christ was not SEIZED VIOLENTLY BY FORCE to heaven to escape being devoured by the Great Red Dragon identified as the Devil or Satan! The symbol of the male son or boy could not possibly be identified as "Jesus the Christ-Child" There is no logic to the prophetic story if he is identified as Jesus Christ. Yes, He is to rule all nations with a iron rod. But so is the Church united with him at the rapture1 Rev 2:26 &27 "To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, i will give authority over the nations-He will rule them with AN IRON SCEPTRE. Since this "BOY"is to be RAPTURED BEFORE the "Rest of the Seed or children" of the Pregnant woman who will be severely persecuted by the Dragon for a time, times and half a tine or 3&1/2 years of THE GREAT TRIBULATION or 1260 days of persecution on the Tribulation Saints which is collectively the fleeing, hiding underground Church,. Symbolic "BOY" is correctly identified in Scripture as "THE PRE_TRIBULATIONAL RAPTURED CHURCH!" The 'rest of the chlldren" of the Pregnant woman are those great multitude who will come out of the Great Tribulation, (Rev 7:9-17) but are harvested and gathered by Christ's angels (Rev 14: 14_16) and (Matthew 13: 24-39 & 36-41) Parable of the wheat and weeds) & (Matthew 13:47-52 Parable of the FIsherman's net, These are also saved BUT PREWRATH and PRE 7OTH WEEK or BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD'S WRATH, THE LAST 7 YEARS OF DANIEL'S 70TH WEEK starts! (Rev: 8 to 11) when AT THE END OF THE AGE, the wicked "weeds" are burnt after the harvest of the good "wheat"are gathered into barns" and the "fishes" sorted out , the good ones collected and the bad ones thrown out to Hell , also the"vine of the earth" the ripen bad grapes' are sickled or cut and thrown into the winepress of GOD'S WRATH. (REV 14:17-20) So there are actually two phases or two gatherings of the Christian Church, the FIRST is a PRE-TRIB rapture by Christ Himself before Satan's short 3&1/2 years wrath (the Great Tribulation of God's saints) starts and the second, a POST TRIB gathering by His angels, after they goes through and come out of it, BUT PREWRATH or before GOD'S WRATH falls on the wicked! Does that adequately answer your question? Dr. Renald Showers is aware ONLY of a ONE phase Pretrib or Pre 7Oth week rapture! I BELIEVE IN TWO!
Thank you Chew. Very interesting. Of course, I can't agree. I think at the heart of the issue is whether or not the church should suffer through the seals, trumpets and bowls of wrath. I think that is a great point. I can deal with it a couple of ways. One is that we actually won't suffer judgments on the unbelievers, since we dwell in the "secret place of the Most High" and so are under the shadow of His wings. If you read the rest of Psalm 91 you see we are indeed protected from His judgments. This psalm has to have it's fulfillment sometime, and I think it pertains to the end. Then, there is another way, that is the fact that Christians die today in earthquakes, tornados, diseases, etc., so why not also then? If one concludes that these natural disasters are God's judgment, then He obviously takes some of His people home during those events. But I prefer the first reason and lean on that. I guess I'm trying to get to the root of why people believe in a Pre-trib rapture in the first place. The argument you gave above is interesting, but it sure would help to prove these points through didactic sections of Scripture and not the Revelation :-) Symbols can mean a lot of different things and doctrines formed from Revelation should be backed up somewhere else. As I said, I don't really see it anywhere in Scripture. But thanks for your reply. Why posted three times?
+Mike65809 ;;; Daniel is the one who has the best scripture that supports the _rapture_ or resurrections that Paul talks about in 1 Th 4:16-17. Read Daniel 12:11, there Daniel is talking about the calling of the saints (Dan 12:1-2) to be 1290 days before the abomination is set up. Jesus said when we see the abomination, know that the time is near. But here's the catch: there is a difference between the _Tribulation_ and the _Wrath._ That is why it's confusing when people want to learn, too many people have no clue they _are not_ the same event and go around saying we will not be around for the _Tribulation,_ when in fact they are talking about the _Wrath_ and don't know it. For a fact, there _IS NO SCRIPTURE_ in the bible anywhere that supports a _Pre-Tribulation Rapture._ That is because the Tribulation will be over when the gathering takes place, and the _Wrath_ periods will follow. We escape the _Wrath,_ but not the Tribulation. In short, the Tribulation started nearly 2,000 years ago, and will end just before Jesus is seen coming back. Hence, there also no such thing as a 7 year tribulation period. But all this may be over your head for now.
After the tribulation is His second coming not the rapture. Jesus said also in the days of the son of man would be like Noah/Lot, after they escaped, then destruction came, so will the church escape. to prove this the church is the barley harvest, Matt3:12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” winnowing fan was used to separate the barley tossing it up.
Listen, I Tell You a Mystery: Read Acts 1:11 and 2:34 and 3:21 and 1 Thessalonians 4 and you will see that Christ cannot leave heaven until the Second Coming.
The prwtrib is true jesus speaks first of tribulations that all believers fact then he speaks of the TRibulation. He tells us to watch and pray to be accounted worthy to escape from the coming Snare that is coming upon the world.he tells us to watch
1 Cor 14 :4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. r u saying the above verses is the lie of satan ? what u say God Yahwe shall reward u.
Can we be both logical and scriptural? ⚫ Jesus said the son and moon would be darkened "immediately after the tribulation of those days" (Matthew 24:29) ⚫ The son and moon are darkened at the opening of the sixth seal, as clearly stated in Revelation 6:12,13. ⚫ Therefore the tribulation must be *over* as the sixth seal is being opened. ⚫ Jesus returns at the "last trump" (1 Cor 15:52, also 1 Thess 4:16) to resurrect the "dead in Christ." The "last trump" is the seventh of the seven trumpets that make up the _seventh_ seal (Revelation 8:1 through 11:15) ⚫ Given that the sixth seal comes _before_ the seventh seal (and the 7th seal's seven trumpets) it is obvious that the tribulation is over well before Jesus returns and resurrects the dead in Christ. *The sixth seal, and the first six trumpets of the seventh seal must all occur after the tribulation but before the "last trump."* ⚫ Quoting 1 Thess 4:16,17: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ *shall rise first:* Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." Those who are "alive and remain" are "caught up" *after* the resurrection of the "dead in Christ" at the "last trump." They are "caught up" _with_ the resurrected, to "meet the Lord in the air". . . well after the tribulation is over. ⚫ Pre-tribulation rapture??? Not in my Book.
After the sixth seal, the tribulation kicks into higher level of intensity. In Luke 17:22-37 Jesus says there will be eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building and getting married when He comes. Revelation 6:15-17 says everybody is hiding in a cave. It is difficult to plant, build, etc. when you are hiding in a cave. Sounds like two different events to me. I do believe post-trib is 1/2 right. There is only one resurrection and it is post-trib. I don't see a resurrection in Luke 17. We don't disappear.
Let me explain. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Notice it is the trump of God, not the seventh trumpet that a angel blows. Now go and read Isaiah 26:19-21
If you read carefully you will see that Paul says now concerning the coming of Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, i.e. The second coming and rapture. Not to be quickly shaken in mind that the Day of the Lord has already come. Paul calls the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and the rapture the Day of the Lord. Peter confirms the sign we will see just as Jesus said we would before His return or second coming.
The answer to that question is to no. it happens after the tribulation, before the wrath. the pre trib rapture concept is a lie. let no man deceive you, read your bible.
@ Stacy """""If the church is raptured before the tribulation and is married to christ in heaven what about the tribulation saints they never married christ rev. 6 opening the 5 seal the souls under the altar cried out for vengence and they were told to wait till thier fellow brethen were killed....so how could the married start without the entire church (tribulation siant r the church (called out) also...it doesn't fit...'''''''' Good post.We are not taught taught to ask questions,therefore we do not recieve answers. The martyers number is fulfilled during the GT,and ARE in heaven as a number no man can number.All attend the Marriage supper.(even the 144k,and the 2 witnesses)
How many Raptures are there for the last days? If you say one then you are correct. But if you say one then you must be post trib? Why? Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. When is the Son of man(Jesus) revealed? Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. That’s right at the very end of tribulation. Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Now let go back to Luke 17. So we see that Jesus is revealed after tribulation. Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. Luk 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Now, what going to happen? Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Luk 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Luk 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. That’s right the rapture! Right when Jesus said He would gather his elect: Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The rapture to avoid the tribulation is a lie. Study Thessalonians chapter two, and keep in mind to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord. At the return of Christ we shall all be changed into our spiritual bodies. This happens after the tribulation.
Let’s not overlook the promise which our Lord gave to His church. He said, “…I am with you always, even unto the end of the age. He did not say 7-years before the end of the world or age. He said He would be with them unto the end of it.” Question: When is the end of the age? ”It certainly is not seven years before the millennium begins. It is not seven years or three and one-half years before Christ brings in everlasting righteousness. The end of the age is not at any point before the Tribulation is terminated. We see in scripture that the seventh angel blows "a great sound" of trumpet at the end of the Tribulation when "the mystery of God shall be finished, and time, as we know it, shall be no more (Revelation 10: 6-7). That is the last trumpet and when does 1 Corinthians 15: 52-53, a classical passage for pretribulationists, say the rapture takes place; namely, "at the last trump" . It is utterly impossible for Christ to be with the church until the end of the age if the rapture takes place seven years before the end. Since every saved person is a part of the church and there will be people saved during the Tribulation , we must conclude that the church will be on earth unto the end of the age. Either Christ or the pretribulationist is wrong. Certainly our blessed Lord could not be wrong.” Once again I must emphasize that we have merely observed the truth of our Lord as He plainly stated it---that He would be with the church until the end of the world (age, Greek), not seven years before the end of the age. Neither have we tried to read our own meaning into this passage, but have accepted the plain teaching of our Lord as we find it in Scripture. There are many scriptural passages (i. e. Heb. 9:28; 1 Thess. 4:14-17; 5:1, 2; 1 Cor. 1:7-8; 2 Thess. 2:1-8; Psalm 110:1; Acts 2:34-35; 3:20-21; Rev. 10:5-7; 11:15; 1 Pet. 1:13; Matt. 28:18-20) which clearly teach that the church must pass through the Tribulation because the rapture of the church and the revelation of Christ are not separated by a significant and noticeable period of time such as seven or three and one-half years. Indeed, the rapture of the church and the revelation of Christ are not separated even by a year, week or day, but are two aspects of one unfolding event (the Second Coming) that takes place on the same day-the day of Christ or the day of the Lord.
In Luke 17:22-37 Jesus says there will be eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building and getting married when He comes. Revelation 6:15-17 says everybody is hiding in a cave. It is difficult to plant, build, etc. when you are hiding in a cave. Sounds like two different events to me. I do believe post-trib is 1/2 right. There is only one resurrection and it is post-trib. I don't see a resurrection in Luke 17. We don't disappear.
There are 2 visible Comings,one FOR the saints (Mt.24, Mk.13,Lk.21) ,the other WITH it (Rev.19)."Immediately after the Tribulation" (not Great Trib.) is at The Abom.of Des. according to Jesus in Lk.17:29-36. The Day of the Lord is The 2nd Coming of Christ & the Resurrection (1 Thes.5:2) & is the 1st event of Gt. Tribulation. It coincides with The 6th Seal, Rev.6,& 7& Dan.12:1-3 at The Appointed Time & The End (Dan.11:27-31). I think the Churches are making very big mistakes with their doctrines.
John Ankerberg Show, you need to read and be able to understand the bible before you go out teaching things about it. The _Wrath of God_ comes after the Mark of the Beast, not before, and not during. Read Rev ch 14, it details the timing of the Mark, which after Jesus sets foot on Mt Zion. The four riders come from heaven, not from Satan. It is God who prophesied wars and famines, not Satan. He sent them out, and the one is most likely the Holy Spirit on the white horse. Also, the _Wrath of Jesus_ comes before the rising of the Beast in Rev 13:11, Rev 6:16.. You also need to read Daniel all over again. Daniel _NEVER_ mentions a tribulation or ever implies a seven year event related to any such. The seven years are a time of battle between two princes. Yes, how many princes is Daniel talking about? Two. The princes are Jesus, and Satan. Jesus was cut off half way into the 70th week, and so it only leaves 42 months. Rev 13:5. The _Wraths_ you guys talk about is not the Tribulation period. It's the two wraths from Jesus and from god. Different wraths, different times. Has nothing to do with the Tribulation. Get your words right with scripture, and maybe you will be able to see how wrong you are on how you say things and preach.
I believe that regardless of the timing of the rapture in relation to the tribulation, we need to be sure that we are ready by having accepted Christ into our hearts so that when he returns we may spend eternity in heaven with him.
Accepting Christ into our hearts is not what saves us, believing on him and trusting everything he did on the cross and believing he rose on the third day is.
why is everyone worried about,pre trib.,mid trib.post trib.I would be more worried if I'm truly saved.And be more concerned with knowing my savior and Lord Jesus Christ,and bringing people to Christ.That is what matters the most.
because your supossed to study and grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord.
Because Christ gave us a command to watch. Also if we are to not care then why even have the book of Revelation?
johnthr33 i agree with you Mr. John
CHRISTFOLLOWER because the bible says we are to anticipate for the Lord’s coming
Because people need to be prepared for distress and obsession and not a false sense of a flying away before the first seal. When the rapture doesn't occur as people have expected, it will cause many to feel forsaken, forgotten, lied to, and left behind in return will cause a falling away from the the faith.
i got a vision this month of an old woman that was closed to me who died 4 years ago, she wore a wedding dress like a bride, i know what it means n i pray she shall receive the grace of God n b invited to the Feast of the Lamb. it saddened me very much as well as i was very happy to see her. i didnt ask God for this rapture visions, it came by the mighty grace of the Holy Spirit from Jesus Christ. i'm 50, hope can still make it.
So Revelation 3:10 is an evidence of a pre-tribulation rapture?
I read and listen to (audio bible) Revelations everyday. I understand the letters to the church and have looked in the history of the actual churches and why he says what he says to each church to know that those issues are shadows of the issues the "church" faces today. what are your thoughts on 1 Corinthians 10:13, Romans 12:12, Romans 5:3, Romans 8:18, 1 Peter 5:10, 1 Peter 4:12, James 1:12, James 1:2-8, Revelation 2:26, Revelation 3:21? May Yah bless you with Wisdom
yes, you will have tribulation, He did not say you will go through "The Tribulation" time of Jacobs trouble. That's when God focuses His attention on Israel to fulfill His promise to them, Rom11:25
The Holy Bible does teach a pre-tribulation rapture.
It is quite a possibility that what this man stating about the parallels of
Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 is amazingly related..
An Incredible inside look at the beginning of the Tribulation the first 3 1/2 years..
At can agree with this man on this.. many wont but we all have our opinions..
Personally, I think that the pre tribulation rapture position is correct. However there are many Godly people that I respect who RESPECTFULLY disagree with me. This is like any other debatable nonessential doctrine. There is room for opinion and it is not a Satanic lie, etc. Personally, I think all of you who are truly in Christ who disagree with me on this issue are in for a great surprise. I get tired of of the condescending remarks from either school of thought toward the other.
A good place to start is a proper exegesis of Daniel 9:24-27, then read Matthew 13:24-30 and Matthew 13:38-40 if you are seeking the Truth regarding this doctrine.
The first to separate the rapture from the second coming was a Baptist minister named Morgan Edwards (1722-1795). He wrote a paper while in seminary that outlined a hypothetical form of mid-tribulationism, and years later published his thesis. Within forty years of his death, Edward Irving (Catholic Apostolic Church), and shortly thereafter John N. Darby (Plymouth Brethren), both of England, were teaching pre-tribulationism.
I 100% agree with you about the Elders. I 100% agree with 1Cor 6:23, but it is clear that those that saints that are with Hamashiach are the 144000 (12,000 from each tribe of Israel) Rev14:1. Love how you think I will be one of the virgins who does not have oil for my lamp. I am ready and waiting with my oil already. I'm not one who is walking around waiting for signs and thinks he has time, but I am awake and watchful. I long for His return. Check yourself and pray for wisdom
We do not determine truth by what seems reasonable but what does the scriptures teach.
Hi Daniel. Let us look at Matthew 24:29 to start. It is a summary account of the 3rd woe and 7 vials of wrath commenced by the 7th trumpet blast recorded in Revelation. Matthew 24:30-31 is the summary account of Revelation 19 that happens after the 7 vials of wrath are poured out. Note also that since Matthew 24:31 is post the 7 vials and 7th trumpet, the trumpet in Matthew 24:31 is a subsequent trumpet to the series of 7 recorded in Revelation. We will call it the 8th trumpet for clarity...
2 Thessalonians 2:7 (KJV) 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he (the Holy Spirit+the Church) who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (And then the Anti-Christ comes to power...) There is a reason why Jesus addresses the Church in rev 3&4, and then never mentioned again until after the trib...Revelation 3:10 (KJV) 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Keep looking up brothers and sisters, ignore all these distractions!
McProseph Gaming The AC will be in power when he is revealed and by that time have already done his work. Then the Lord will reveal him by the truth and brightness of his coming 2nd Thessalonians 2 verse 7and 8 .Jesus comes once in the clouds , once . After tribulation. Don't fool yourself .
the book of revelation is not a jiggle saw puzzle and can be easily understood. tribulation means prosecution, not wrath. All true Christians throughout time have and will find themselves in tribulation. It is a promise by Jesus that as a Christian you shall be prosecuted or have tribulation for his name sake and for the word of God. have joy for this for he has overcome the world.
2 thessalonians 2:6 explain that rapture happens before tribulation, because Antichrist will reveals himself after the church is taken away because the power of the Holy Spirit who restraining him will be taken
It does get kind of confusing.All I know is during the times of Jesus's return Christians are saved one way or the other.
Can you provide scriptural proof (not saying there isn't any) for the your stance that the Multitude is the "left behind". I never said or even brought up the topic of who is and isn't getting crowns.... the Elders already had crowns, so why would I think only modern day saints get crowns.? You must be reading someone elses post but responding to me because you have assumed a lot about me just off my few words.
If the Lord returned at the last angel who sounded in Rev, what about Jude14, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, how does that fit in?
- yes but who will rightly divided scripture to prove the truth. Ps 51 "I will take refuge in the shadow of your wings until the disaster has passed." Ps 91 "He shall cover thee with His feathers, and under His wings shalt thou trust." (Keep can mean protect). Problem is, people have 'preconceived' doctrines and approach "rightly dividing" from a position to prove what they were taught by their piers / pay check. Show us (scripture only) in sequential order from both sides without presumptions.
Should the trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16 be tied to the 8th trumpet of Matthew 24:31? Now note also that the first resurrection of Revelation 20 is post the return of the Lord summarized in Matthew 24:30-31 but detailed in Revelation 19. If the body of Christ is in the 70th week of Daniel, then they will not be snatched till that resurrection that is not only post wrath, but also post His return to earth to destroy the antichrist. And if you noted the sequence of...
Yes you are right, we are hidden from the Wrath of God, not the tribulation period. This is where every pre tribber is wrong. Tribulation isn't wrath. If it was, then God poured his wrath out on the disciples of Jesus as they were stoned and tortured for their testimony of Jesus. That isn't the case though, they went trough tribulation, not wrath.
John 142 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. Put that with 1Thess4, There is no mention of judgment here
@Musicman81Indy - there are many verses that can be given as proof for both sides: Rev. 3:10 'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.1 Thess. 5:9 - For God has not destined us for wrath... - J A Show Staff
When Christ returns we're still be debating this issue and there will be hell to pay...let's drop this as well as our lives and lets get to work...
first I must ask you, do your works contribute to your salvation?
Mark 8:23 - He took the blind man by the hand and led him outside the village. When he had spit on the man’s eyes and put his hands on him, Jesus asked, “Do you see anything?”
24 He looked up and said, “I see people - as trees - walking.”
25 Once more Jesus put his hands on the man’s eyes. Then his eyes were opened, his sight was restored, and he saw everything clearly.
The Truth Is a Mirror
Unfortunately. but as expected for Pre-Trib teaching, the following passage from Scripture is omitted by Mr. Showers:
"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,
not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God." 2 Thes 2: 1-4
This passage tells us that the "rapture" [being gathered together, V1] does not occur until 2 events happen: 1] the apostacy [rebellion, V3 ], and 2] the Abomination of Desolation [V3-4] which occurs at the middle of the 70th week; [Dan 12:11 "And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days"; see also Dan 9:27].
So. How can the rapture happen prior to or at the beginning of the 7 years/70th week?
Now its 2019. What i want to know is in what seal or trumpet are we now?
The seals, trumpets and bowls start after the pre-trib departure of the church.
The pre tribulational rapture is the only true Bible teaching concerning the Lord Jesus Christ coming for His true Church of born again believers(John 3:3; 1Thess4:13-18). "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh"(Matt24:44). Satan's desire is for one to say, "...My lord delayeth his coming"(Matt24:48), to live in sin, and reject the pre tribulational rapture, which is the Lord Jesus Christ's timely unexpected return for His saints(Matt25:44).
So will you say the church of Phil, goes through the tribulation?
Great post, I agree, from that passage it looks like we are here during God's wrath but like the Israel in Egypt, we are not harmed. The issue with that is that passage is right before Armageddon so could he be referring to coming as a thief prior to the battle? Also, consider Rev 15:2-6. It seems the plagues or wrath of God starts after those who are victorious over the beast is clearly seen in heaven, suggesting Rapture has already occurred, also note Rev. 3:10 concerning missing the wrath
However one hinging point could be considered the eminence theory. Pre tribulation has to stand upon the eminent return of Christ. Struggling to deal with "Antichrist revealed first" and many others in Matt 24. One can not brush these off by saying he is speaking to those who have been left in the rapture. Who was jesus talking to? What was the quetion in vs 3 that he was responding to?
2thess. 1:6-8 denies a Pre-tribulation rapture. Most of the time skipped over in these discussions. I wonder why. But it says the church receives rest from her persecutions when..? At the Pre-tribulation rapture? You certainly would think so. No. It says, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in flaming fire, dealing out retribution on HIs enemies. So how is that possible with a Pre-tribulation rapture? Please explain from this passage, without bringing other passages into the discussion - if you can.
You are perfecting your skill... the promulgation of drivel.
Why? Because you are suffering from a case of bad hermeneutics. Try again.
Great post Daniel, good insight.
what's the point of making Jesus your savior if He isn't going to save us from the tribulation?
I personally haven't studied the rapture enough to say whether or not it is before or after the tribulation, but to answer your question, if believers were to be put through the tribulation it would be for us to actually show that we believe and will do anything for God. Enduring to the end is mentioned a few times and is why I could see Christians having to go through it. If there is a pre-trib rapture, great.
Bro Mike, Accept JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOUR to have Eternal Life in heaven. We are the last generation so we will be Empower by the Holy Spirit to face Persecution that comes from Antichrist. We have the Blessed Hope of Resurrection in the Last Trumpet we shall rise whether death or alive we'll meet JESUS in the air. Then we shall reign with CHRIST for 1000years in our Resurrected body.
It is pretty straightforward in Daniel though. The timeline shows Jesus before the tribulation, so I don't know why so many want to latch onto post tribulation rapture lol.
you have a scripture for that statement?
"I am against your pillows where with ye there hunt the souls to make them them fly,and will tear them from your arms,and u will let the souls go,even those souls you hunt to make them fly"eziekiel 13:20 if some of u think ur flying away on a pre trib rapture this passage clearly shows god is against those trying to mislead his people and get them to fly away like the pre trib rapture teaches
Who are the 1O, OOO that help in the great tribulation
Rev 14 1.And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Note here in verse 1 that the Lamb of GOD is Jesus Christ who was sacrificed for our sins. The 144 000 are pictured as being "with the lamb." This is in contrast with the rest of the world who are pictured being with the Beast. [ch.13] the world wondered after the beast.
so which side do u think u will stay with ?
Daniel Clarke """""""" post-tribbers are honestly concerned, in love, for our brethren"""""
Then why do you misquote Mat 24?
Postrib is impossible.
You do not even have one verse to support postrib rapture.
NO. THE CHURCH WILL NOT BE HERE WHEN THE MARK IS REQUIRED. WERE GONE...
Jody Wolfe Your prized 1st Thessalonian 4 verse 13 thru 17 is not a Pretrib rapture . Paul refuted that claim in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2
+Jody Wolfe
Your statement is partly correct. The believers, born again people, will be gone when the Mark of the Beast comes. However, if you read ch 14 in Revelation, you will see the Mark does not take place until after Jesus returns. Some of the _Dead_ will refuse the mark and be saved to live during the Millennium. Therefore, while the church as you say it, will be gone, there are people who will become followers later, who will face the mark and be beheaded for refusing it towards the end of the 42 months after Jesus returns.
Really Peter Rappit? Then show me the scriptures that show I am wrong. Come on wise speaker of the tongues, show the world. Because I know I'm right, and I can back it up with scripture. You can't back up anything, and never have been able to either.
we will be. take the mark or get beheaded
It obviously mentions the mark of the beast in the book of Revelation before the returning of Christ?
The Greek word translated in English as “after” is meta. We find meta translated as “after” 88 times in the authorized King James Version, but translated as “with” 345 times and “among” five times. The overwhelming Scriptural evidence demands a Matthew 24:29 translation such as “without delay with the tribulation of those days…”rather than “immediately after the tribulation…”
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: ((and the dead in Christ shall rise first:)) [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
((Dead first! Then and only then the living))
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:
for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
((So the dead rise at the last trump. There is a reason y there are 7. And there's a reason y 7 is the last 1))
Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh ((last)) angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished,
((Finished, done, no more to come. No 7 more years. Finished))
For example, where in scripture does it say "second coming"? Nowhere, in fact the old testament prophets had no reason to believe that the Lord's visitation would not see all prophecies concerning Him to be fulfilled in one visitation. People made the same mistake then that people are making today, then they read in the scriptures one visitation, today they read a second one. How confusing was the Lords reading of Isaiah 61:1 to those who could not discern the dispensational break.
Lokawidu,
So who is taken?
Read parable of the tares in matthew.
Or so as in the days of noah... who was taken?
The wicked are taken first.
the restrainer is imho the Holy Spirit.
have u been baptized by the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues ?
John11:23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
The beginning of sorrows (birth pangs) began when Israel became a nation. This is illustrated in Revelation 12:1-2.
When Israel shines forth as a nation (sun, moon and stars: Gen.37:9-10), the woman goes into labor....: the beginning of sorrows (birth pangs).
Equally, in Matthew 24:29, when the sun, moon and stars are darkened...; tribulation will have ended and Israel is destroyed forever (Jer. 31:35-36).
Most Christians have been taught the next event on Gods end time calendar is the rapture of believers at the coming of the Son of Man, no one knows the exact day or hour, His coming could take place at any moment? Yet the Abomination of Desolation, the Antichrist, invades Jerusalem in Mat. 24:15, the rapture at the coming of the Son of Man takes place later in v30.
So who comes first, the Antichrist or Jesus?
In Acts 1: 11 we read of a similar account.. Jesus is 'taken UP' it's exactly the same Greek terminology used for 'caught UP' in 1 Thessalonians 4: 17.. Caught up and taken up are both equal analogies to the rapture..Jesus was 'harpazo' and the church will also be 'harpazo' into the clouds/the air.
Hi throne i think we can at any moment SLEEP n lost our OIL in this brutal world, kindly pray for me.
The first rider is the Holy spirit sent at the time Jesus prevailed on the cross and returned to the Father
The first 5 seals are the beginning of the sorrows as described by Jesus, not the tribulation.
do a study on what is the tribulation.. peace
Here is the best example of one taking verses out of context and applying them to fit your believe, I hope the church is ready to live or die for Jesus.
Ok so now what? Is Rapture before or after Tribulation?
Many pretribulationist authors re-quote Showers and Missler as authoritative evidence for "the seven days of huppa". However, the problem for the pretribulationists is that there is no evidence for the mythical seven days of isolation in the Tanakh. This necessitates their reliance upon tradition alone without biblical support, in order to validate their point. Ironically, even here they fail! Although the Talmud does give detailed information on Jewish wedding procedures, opinion seems to differ among the rabbis concerning these procedures in ancient times. In Talmudic times, the room where the marriage was consummated was huppa or chuppah. In other words the huppah was a later addition practiced during Talmudic period. The Tanakh refers to the wedding simply as the seven days of the feast (Genesis 29:27 Judges 14:12).
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The Talmud?
As a Jew saved by grace, I am only interested in God's holy word, and not commentaries by men.
The Talmud is not scripture.
The Lord's servant is not to have anything to do with stupid and foolish arguments, for the Lord's servant shall not quarrel. We are here on Earth to evangelize the lost.
Know the truth and be set free by the truth and then share the truth with others. Christ Jesus came into the world to testify to the Truth.
Lord God Almighty, may we do the same!
The rapture is not pretribulation. Its mid trib when praises end of the firstfruits saints in the middle of the week.
+K Day -- The Bible says that the Rapture is Pre-Tribulation. I wouldn't be calling God's word a lie....... THIS: "when praises end of the firstfruits saints in the middle of the week" is not even in the Bible.. (WHY don't people just study the Bible??)
How those he knows where is the paralel to a chapter or vers.? How those he know to go to Mathew or Daniel?
Jesus referred to Daniel in Matthew 24:15 as a prophet. The only verse that is similar to what Jesus was talking about is Daniel 9:27.
@@rick_h Thank you Rick
"Implications" equal what man has read into Scripture to make it say what he wants.
That's why we can't just go by one verse in the scriptures...or even cherry pick them, we must look at the bible as a whole and all scriptures pertaining to his coming.
Anytime we read about his coming it happens when?
Careful, brother. I also speak in tongues, but we must be careful not to be divisive. If they acknowledge and know the true Lord Jesus, they are complete in Him. We are one brethren.
The Bible is the Word of God, it doesn't change, and it is the written revelation of the true God.
The unity of the brethren is real in the Lord Jesus apart from their acknowledgment of tongues or their understanding of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
What if the rapture ISN'T an external event, but an internal one. Why are we looking outside of ourselves to some futuristic event? Look WITHIN yourself for His appearing. When will you see this happen in you? Much of scripture you quote has already happened IN me, including revelation. It wasn't until I quit looking outside of myself for Him did He return WITHIN me. It's not going to happen all at once, but every eye will see Him, eventually.
Christians need to understand the difference between Tribulation and Gods wrath...
Exactly.
juliet buringi what is the difference then
What a fucked up religion you believe in
Christians need to understand that the whole thing is bullshit
Mr. Williams, these are the end times where scoffers will taunt, mock and riducule people of faith. You should really consider that if your wrong (which you are) you will be left behind. And when you want to change your mind it will be too late. You will go thru the tribulation and you will never be as sorry as you will be then. You will feed hate, fear, dread and anxiety like nothing you will have ever felt before. You will see the AntiChrist and very possible take the mark of the beast and be condemded to the Lake of Fire. The tragedy is the Lake was only meant for Satan and his angels but how many souls will Satan take with him into the fire? Please don't be one of them.
my bible only has post trib. verses where do you buy pre. trib. bibles are the next to comic books.
Just because Jesus is opening the seals does not mean it's his wrath. The sixth seal mentions wrath in it's presence tense ( for the great day of his wrath has come). God's wrath starts after the half hour of silence in heaven during the seventh seal. Christ descends from heaven to raise the dead first . When did John see Christ descending? SIXTH SEAL...there is no rapture before the first seal, second seal, third seal, fourth seal, fifth seal.... The rapture will occur in the sixth seal when Christ descends
I believe he was talking to the Pharisees when he said that, yes anyone who is not for the Lord is against. Jesus taught pre trib rapture.
It is only a day of judgment for the wicked who don't believe in Jesus. To the elect it is the harvest.
At 1:00, you must understand the period of *Wrath IS NOT the Tribulation.* The tribulation is over when the wrath periods start. People confuse wrath with tribulation. *Add up the time lines given in Revelation, and you will it far exceeds a 7 year period.* How then, can anyone say 7 year tribulation? At 1:15, Daniel was not talking about a tribulation either.
Jesus said we would all see the Abomination of Desolation before he calls for the gathering (Rapture).. Now let's do some math. At 1:42, he just said the Abomination shows up half way into the week. How then is there 7 years of tribulation even according to his own words? How is it he cannot understand the Abomination shows up before any rapture takes place?
At 3:40, the bow is symbolic of God's promise's. Just as he promised not to destroy mankind or the earth with another flood. Therefore the rider is riding for God's word, it is the Holy Spirit. It conquers people over to Christ.
I'm out at 4:57, and may return later to finish. Don't believe false teachers like this.
If the church is raptured before the tribulation and is married to christ in heaven what about the tribulation saints they never married christ rev. 6 opening the 5 seal the souls under the altar cried out for vengence and they were told to wait till thier fellow brethen were killed....so how could the married start without the entire church (tribulation siant r the church (called out) also...it doesn't fit...
Mat 24:31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
What poor times we live in! Those who amuse by raising some positive moods are now considered to be spiritual and loving! But there's no partiality with God, thankfully!
Post tribbers are forced to put the harpazo after the tribulation because they make false conclusions. They take similarities, ignore the details, and discern them as being the same. However a careful study of scripture will show that the Holy Spirit is meticulous in His wording and has instructed us to hold fast the form of sound words(2 Timothy 13), to try and discern those things that differ(Philippians 1:10), only then will we rightly divide the word of truth(2 Timothy 2:15).
what is that ???
@NickelsBuckingBulls
That's just what I was thinking about last night. Any time his coming is mentioned it's always in singular form..even when Paul speaks about the order of the resurrection..Christ first and then we which are Christ's at his coming.
The tribulation is not the same as his wrath.
you take one scripture out of context and build your own theology around it? God is against magic charms, AKA witchcraft, if you don't believe in a rapture why do you reply?
Noah and Lot were taken out of the way not protected through it Rev3:10
Why do people think that those that believe in pre-tribulation rapture aren't really saved and get so angry with those that believe differently than others? I know I am Saved by GRACE through Faith, no works lest any man boast!! Hallelujah! Our works are as Filthy Rags! That's exactly WHY Jesus died! He bore each of our sins, past, present AND future! We were born sinners and will die sinners but thanks be to GOD ALMIGHTY for sending His Only begotten son begotten, HE paid the price and we are counted as righteous ONLY because of His Precious blood! We are told in the bible to Watch, to get ready, to encourage and comfort each other while we occupy and preach the Love of Jesus! It saddens me that some so called Christians are so quick to anger, confrontational, and irrational over the Truth of Gods word? Anyway, many blessings to all my brothers and sisters! Look up for our redemption draw nigh! Occupy and redeem! 😉
Can anyone give me a scripture in context that teaches a Pre-Tribulation rapture?
Here it is! Mike, Please read Revelation 12: 1-13 carefully, the whole chapter. Actually, scripture teaches " PRE-POST" RAPTURE & GATHERING, not just a Pre-Trib rapture. Please hear me out and let me explain.
Understand specially verse 12::8 "And she (the pregnant woman) a symbol of the Universal True Christian Church , not the nation of Israel) gave birth to a son, a male who is about to shepherd all the nations with an iron sceptre and her child (a symbol of the Pre-tribulation Raptured Church!) was CAUGHT UP (Greek; HERPASTHE, a passive verb from "HARPAZO" meaning RAPTURED or SEIZED, KIPNAPPED BY FORCE ) to God and to His throne.
Christ was not SEIZED VIOLENTLY BY FORCE to heaven to escape being devoured by the Great Red Dragon identified as the Devil or Satan!
The symbol of the male son or boy could not possibly be identified as "Jesus the Christ-Child" There is no logic to the prophetic story if he is identified as Jesus Christ. Yes, He is to rule all nations with a iron rod. But so is the Church united with him at the rapture1 Rev 2:26 &27 "To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, i will give authority over the nations-He will rule them with AN IRON SCEPTRE.
Since this "BOY"is to be RAPTURED BEFORE the "Rest of the Seed or children" of the Pregnant woman who will be severely persecuted by the Dragon for a time, times and half a tine or 3&1/2 years of THE GREAT TRIBULATION or 1260 days of persecution on the Tribulation Saints which is collectively the fleeing, hiding underground Church,. Symbolic "BOY" is correctly identified in Scripture as "THE PRE_TRIBULATIONAL RAPTURED CHURCH!" The 'rest of the chlldren" of the Pregnant woman are those great multitude who will come out of the Great Tribulation, (Rev 7:9-17) but are harvested and gathered by Christ's angels (Rev 14: 14_16) and (Matthew 13: 24-39 & 36-41) Parable of the wheat and weeds) & (Matthew 13:47-52 Parable of the FIsherman's net,
These are also saved BUT PREWRATH and PRE 7OTH WEEK or BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD'S WRATH, THE LAST 7 YEARS OF DANIEL'S 70TH WEEK starts! (Rev: 8 to 11) when AT THE END OF THE AGE, the wicked "weeds" are burnt after the harvest of the good "wheat"are gathered into barns" and the "fishes" sorted out , the good ones collected and the bad ones thrown out to Hell , also the"vine of the earth" the ripen bad grapes' are sickled or cut and thrown into the winepress of GOD'S WRATH. (REV 14:17-20)
So there are actually two phases or two gatherings of the Christian Church, the FIRST is a PRE-TRIB rapture by Christ Himself before Satan's short 3&1/2 years wrath (the Great Tribulation of God's saints) starts and the second, a POST TRIB gathering by His angels, after they goes through and come out of it, BUT PREWRATH or before GOD'S WRATH falls on the wicked!
Does that adequately answer your question? Dr. Renald Showers is aware ONLY of a ONE phase Pretrib or Pre 7Oth week rapture! I BELIEVE IN TWO!
Here it is! Mike, Please read Revelation 12: 1-13 carefully, the whole chapter. Actually, scripture teaches " PRE-POST" RAPTURE & GATHERING, not just a Pre-Trib rapture. Please hear me out and let me explain.
Understand specially verse 12::8 "And she (the pregnant woman) a symbol of the Universal True Christian Church , not the nation of Israel) gave birth to a son, a male who is about to shepherd all the nations with an iron sceptre and her child (a symbol of the Pre-tribulation Raptured Church!) was CAUGHT UP (Greek; HERPASTHE, a passive verb from "HARPAZO" meaning RAPTURED or SEIZED, KIPNAPPED BY FORCE ) to God and to His throne.
Christ was not SEIZED VIOLENTLY BY FORCE to heaven to escape being devoured by the Great Red Dragon identified as the Devil or Satan!
The symbol of the male son or boy could not possibly be identified as "Jesus the Christ-Child" There is no logic to the prophetic story if he is identified as Jesus Christ. Yes, He is to rule all nations with a iron rod. But so is the Church united with him at the rapture1 Rev 2:26 &27 "To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, i will give authority over the nations-He will rule them with AN IRON SCEPTRE.
Since this "BOY"is to be RAPTURED BEFORE the "Rest of the Seed or children" of the Pregnant woman who will be severely persecuted by the Dragon for a time, times and half a tine or 3&1/2 years of THE GREAT TRIBULATION or 1260 days of persecution on the Tribulation Saints which is collectively the fleeing, hiding underground Church,. Symbolic "BOY" is correctly identified in Scripture as "THE PRE_TRIBULATIONAL RAPTURED CHURCH!" The 'rest of the chlldren" of the Pregnant woman are those great multitude who will come out of the Great Tribulation, (Rev 7:9-17) but are harvested and gathered by Christ's angels (Rev 14: 14_16) and (Matthew 13: 24-39 & 36-41) Parable of the wheat and weeds) & (Matthew 13:47-52 Parable of the FIsherman's net,
These are also saved BUT PREWRATH and PRE 7OTH WEEK or BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD'S WRATH, THE LAST 7 YEARS OF DANIEL'S 70TH WEEK starts! (Rev: 8 to 11) when AT THE END OF THE AGE, the wicked "weeds" are burnt after the harvest of the good "wheat"are gathered into barns" and the "fishes" sorted out , the good ones collected and the bad ones thrown out to Hell , also the"vine of the earth" the ripen bad grapes' are sickled or cut and thrown into the winepress of GOD'S WRATH. (REV 14:17-20)
So there are actually two phases or two gatherings of the Christian Church, the FIRST is a PRE-TRIB rapture by Christ Himself before Satan's short 3&1/2 years wrath (the Great Tribulation of God's saints) starts and the second, a POST TRIB gathering by His angels, after they goes through and come out of it, BUT PREWRATH or before GOD'S WRATH falls on the wicked!
Does that adequately answer your question? Dr. Renald Showers is aware ONLY of a ONE phase Pretrib or Pre 7Oth week rapture! I BELIEVE IN TWO!
Here it is! Mike, Please read Revelation 12: 1-13 carefully, the whole chapter. Actually, scripture teaches " PRE-POST" RAPTURE & GATHERING, not just a Pre-Trib rapture. Please hear me out and let me explain.
Understand specially verse 12::8 "And she (the pregnant woman) a symbol of the Universal True Christian Church , not the nation of Israel) gave birth to a son, a male who is about to shepherd all the nations with an iron sceptre and her child (a symbol of the Pre-tribulation Raptured Church!) was CAUGHT UP (Greek; HERPASTHE, a passive verb from "HARPAZO" meaning RAPTURED or SEIZED, KIPNAPPED BY FORCE ) to God and to His throne.
Christ was not SEIZED VIOLENTLY BY FORCE to heaven to escape being devoured by the Great Red Dragon identified as the Devil or Satan!
The symbol of the male son or boy could not possibly be identified as "Jesus the Christ-Child" There is no logic to the prophetic story if he is identified as Jesus Christ. Yes, He is to rule all nations with a iron rod. But so is the Church united with him at the rapture1 Rev 2:26 &27 "To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, i will give authority over the nations-He will rule them with AN IRON SCEPTRE.
Since this "BOY"is to be RAPTURED BEFORE the "Rest of the Seed or children" of the Pregnant woman who will be severely persecuted by the Dragon for a time, times and half a tine or 3&1/2 years of THE GREAT TRIBULATION or 1260 days of persecution on the Tribulation Saints which is collectively the fleeing, hiding underground Church,. Symbolic "BOY" is correctly identified in Scripture as "THE PRE_TRIBULATIONAL RAPTURED CHURCH!" The 'rest of the chlldren" of the Pregnant woman are those great multitude who will come out of the Great Tribulation, (Rev 7:9-17) but are harvested and gathered by Christ's angels (Rev 14: 14_16) and (Matthew 13: 24-39 & 36-41) Parable of the wheat and weeds) & (Matthew 13:47-52 Parable of the FIsherman's net,
These are also saved BUT PREWRATH and PRE 7OTH WEEK or BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD'S WRATH, THE LAST 7 YEARS OF DANIEL'S 70TH WEEK starts! (Rev: 8 to 11) when AT THE END OF THE AGE, the wicked "weeds" are burnt after the harvest of the good "wheat"are gathered into barns" and the "fishes" sorted out , the good ones collected and the bad ones thrown out to Hell , also the"vine of the earth" the ripen bad grapes' are sickled or cut and thrown into the winepress of GOD'S WRATH. (REV 14:17-20)
So there are actually two phases or two gatherings of the Christian Church, the FIRST is a PRE-TRIB rapture by Christ Himself before Satan's short 3&1/2 years wrath (the Great Tribulation of God's saints) starts and the second, a POST TRIB gathering by His angels, after they goes through and come out of it, BUT PREWRATH or before GOD'S WRATH falls on the wicked!
Does that adequately answer your question? Dr. Renald Showers is aware ONLY of a ONE phase Pretrib or Pre 7Oth week rapture! I BELIEVE IN TWO!
Thank you Chew. Very interesting. Of course, I can't agree. I think at the heart of the issue is whether or not the church should suffer through the seals, trumpets and bowls of wrath. I think that is a great point. I can deal with it a couple of ways. One is that we actually won't suffer judgments on the unbelievers, since we dwell in the "secret place of the Most High" and so are under the shadow of His wings. If you read the rest of Psalm 91 you see we are indeed protected from His judgments. This psalm has to have it's fulfillment sometime, and I think it pertains to the end. Then, there is another way, that is the fact that Christians die today in earthquakes, tornados, diseases, etc., so why not also then? If one concludes that these natural disasters are God's judgment, then He obviously takes some of His people home during those events. But I prefer the first reason and lean on that. I guess I'm trying to get to the root of why people believe in a Pre-trib rapture in the first place. The argument you gave above is interesting, but it sure would help to prove these points through didactic sections of Scripture and not the Revelation :-) Symbols can mean a lot of different things and doctrines formed from Revelation should be backed up somewhere else. As I said, I don't really see it anywhere in Scripture. But thanks for your reply. Why posted three times?
+Mike65809 ;;; Daniel is the one who has the best scripture that supports the _rapture_ or resurrections that Paul talks about in 1 Th 4:16-17. Read Daniel 12:11, there Daniel is talking about the calling of the saints (Dan 12:1-2) to be 1290 days before the abomination is set up. Jesus said when we see the abomination, know that the time is near.
But here's the catch: there is a difference between the _Tribulation_ and the _Wrath._ That is why it's confusing when people want to learn, too many people have no clue they _are not_ the same event and go around saying we will not be around for the _Tribulation,_ when in fact they are talking about the _Wrath_ and don't know it.
For a fact, there _IS NO SCRIPTURE_ in the bible anywhere that supports a _Pre-Tribulation Rapture._ That is because the Tribulation will be over when the gathering takes place, and the _Wrath_ periods will follow.
We escape the _Wrath,_ but not the Tribulation. In short, the Tribulation started nearly 2,000 years ago, and will end just before Jesus is seen coming back. Hence, there also no such thing as a 7 year tribulation period.
But all this may be over your head for now.
After the tribulation is His second coming not the rapture. Jesus said also in the days of the son of man would be like Noah/Lot, after they escaped, then destruction came, so will the church escape. to prove this the church is the barley harvest, Matt3:12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” winnowing fan was used to separate the barley tossing it up.
Listen, I Tell You a Mystery:
Read Acts 1:11 and 2:34 and 3:21 and 1 Thessalonians 4
and you will see that
Christ cannot leave heaven until the Second Coming.
The prwtrib is true jesus speaks first of tribulations that all believers fact then he speaks of the TRibulation. He tells us to watch and pray to be accounted worthy to escape from the coming Snare that is coming upon the world.he tells us to watch
1 Cor 14 :4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
r u saying the above verses is the lie of satan ? what u say God Yahwe shall reward u.
Can we be both logical and scriptural?
⚫ Jesus said the son and moon would be darkened "immediately after the tribulation of those days" (Matthew 24:29)
⚫ The son and moon are darkened at the opening of the sixth seal, as clearly stated in Revelation 6:12,13.
⚫ Therefore the tribulation must be *over* as the sixth seal is being opened.
⚫ Jesus returns at the "last trump" (1 Cor 15:52, also 1 Thess 4:16) to resurrect the "dead in Christ." The "last trump" is the seventh of the seven trumpets that make up the _seventh_ seal (Revelation 8:1 through 11:15)
⚫ Given that the sixth seal comes _before_ the seventh seal (and the 7th seal's seven trumpets) it is obvious that the tribulation is over well before Jesus returns and resurrects the dead in Christ. *The sixth seal, and the first six trumpets of the seventh seal must all occur after the tribulation but before the "last trump."*
⚫ Quoting 1 Thess 4:16,17: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ *shall rise first:*
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
Those who are "alive and remain" are "caught up" *after* the resurrection of the "dead in Christ" at the "last trump." They are "caught up" _with_ the resurrected, to "meet the Lord in the air". . . well after the tribulation is over.
⚫ Pre-tribulation rapture??? Not in my Book.
After the sixth seal, the tribulation kicks into higher level of intensity. In Luke 17:22-37 Jesus says there will be eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building and getting married when He comes. Revelation 6:15-17 says everybody is hiding in a cave. It is difficult to plant, build, etc. when you are hiding in a cave. Sounds like two different events to me. I do believe post-trib is 1/2 right. There is only one resurrection and it is post-trib. I don't see a resurrection in Luke 17. We don't disappear.
will you be one of these people? do you know Jesus?
Let me explain. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Notice it is the trump of God, not the seventh trumpet that a angel blows. Now go and read Isaiah 26:19-21
If you read carefully you will see that Paul says now concerning the coming of Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, i.e. The second coming and rapture.
Not to be quickly shaken in mind that the Day of the Lord has already come.
Paul calls the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and the rapture the Day of the Lord.
Peter confirms the sign we will see just as Jesus said we would before His return or second coming.
The answer to that question is to no. it happens after the tribulation, before the wrath. the pre trib rapture concept is a lie. let no man deceive you, read your bible.
@ Stacy """""If the church is raptured before the tribulation and is married to christ in heaven what about the tribulation saints they never married christ rev. 6 opening the 5 seal the souls under the altar cried out for vengence and they were told to wait till thier fellow brethen were killed....so how could the married start without the entire church (tribulation siant r the church (called out) also...it doesn't fit...''''''''
Good post.We are not taught taught to ask questions,therefore we do not recieve answers.
The martyers number is fulfilled during the GT,and ARE in heaven as a number no man can number.All attend the Marriage supper.(even the 144k,and the 2 witnesses)
St. Paul said the dead shall b raised incorruptible n we shall b Changed,
just at the time of that gathering in the cloud.
How many Raptures are there for the last days? If you say one then you are correct. But if you say one then you must be post trib? Why?
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
When is the Son of man(Jesus) revealed?
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
That’s right at the very end of tribulation.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Now let go back to Luke 17. So we see that Jesus is revealed after tribulation.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
Luk 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
Now, what going to happen?
Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luk 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
That’s right the rapture! Right when Jesus said He would gather his elect:
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The rapture to avoid the tribulation is a lie. Study Thessalonians chapter two, and keep in mind to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord. At the return of Christ we shall all be changed into our spiritual bodies. This happens after the tribulation.
Let’s not overlook the promise which our Lord gave to His church. He said, “…I am with you always, even unto the end of the age. He did not say 7-years before the end of the world or age. He said He would be with them unto the end of it.”
Question: When is the end of the age?
”It certainly is not seven years before the millennium begins. It is not seven years or three and one-half years before Christ brings in everlasting righteousness. The end of the age is not at any point before the Tribulation is terminated. We see in scripture that the seventh angel blows "a great sound" of trumpet at the end of the Tribulation when "the mystery of God shall be finished, and time, as we know it, shall be no more (Revelation 10: 6-7). That is the last trumpet and when does 1 Corinthians 15: 52-53, a classical passage for pretribulationists, say the rapture takes place; namely, "at the last trump" . It is utterly impossible for Christ to be with the church until the end of the age if the rapture takes place seven years before the end. Since every saved person is a part of the church and there will be people saved during the Tribulation , we must conclude that the church will be on earth unto the end of the age. Either Christ or the pretribulationist is wrong. Certainly our blessed Lord could not be wrong.”
Once again I must emphasize that we have merely observed the truth of our Lord as He plainly stated it---that He would be with the church until the end of the world (age, Greek), not seven years before the end of the age. Neither have we tried to read our own meaning into this passage, but have accepted the plain teaching of our Lord as we find it in Scripture.
There are many scriptural passages (i. e. Heb. 9:28; 1 Thess. 4:14-17; 5:1, 2; 1 Cor. 1:7-8; 2 Thess. 2:1-8; Psalm 110:1; Acts 2:34-35; 3:20-21; Rev. 10:5-7; 11:15; 1 Pet. 1:13; Matt. 28:18-20) which clearly teach that the church must pass through the Tribulation because the rapture of the church and the revelation of Christ are not separated by a significant and noticeable period of time such as seven or three and one-half years. Indeed, the rapture of the church and the revelation of Christ are not separated even by a year, week or day, but are two aspects of one unfolding event (the Second Coming) that takes place on the same day-the day of Christ or the day of the Lord.
In Luke 17:22-37 Jesus says there will be eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building and getting married when He comes. Revelation 6:15-17 says everybody is hiding in a cave. It is difficult to plant, build, etc. when you are hiding in a cave. Sounds like two different events to me. I do believe post-trib is 1/2 right. There is only one resurrection and it is post-trib. I don't see a resurrection in Luke 17. We don't disappear.
your calling God a liar?
There are 2 visible Comings,one FOR the saints (Mt.24, Mk.13,Lk.21) ,the other WITH it (Rev.19)."Immediately after the Tribulation" (not Great Trib.) is at The Abom.of Des. according to Jesus in Lk.17:29-36. The Day of the Lord is The 2nd Coming of Christ & the Resurrection (1 Thes.5:2) & is the 1st event of Gt. Tribulation. It coincides with The 6th Seal, Rev.6,& 7& Dan.12:1-3 at The Appointed Time & The End (Dan.11:27-31). I think the Churches are making very big mistakes with their doctrines.
John Ankerberg Show, you need to read and be able to understand the bible before you go out teaching things about it. The _Wrath of God_ comes after the Mark of the Beast, not before, and not during. Read Rev ch 14, it details the timing of the Mark, which after Jesus sets foot on Mt Zion. The four riders come from heaven, not from Satan. It is God who prophesied wars and famines, not Satan. He sent them out, and the one is most likely the Holy Spirit on the white horse. Also, the _Wrath of Jesus_ comes before the rising of the Beast in Rev 13:11, Rev 6:16..
You also need to read Daniel all over again. Daniel _NEVER_ mentions a tribulation or ever implies a seven year event related to any such. The seven years are a time of battle between two princes. Yes, how many princes is Daniel talking about? Two. The princes are Jesus, and Satan. Jesus was cut off half way into the 70th week, and so it only leaves 42 months. Rev 13:5.
The _Wraths_ you guys talk about is not the Tribulation period. It's the two wraths from Jesus and from god. Different wraths, different times. Has nothing to do with the Tribulation. Get your words right with scripture, and maybe you will be able to see how wrong you are on how you say things and preach.
Very interesting