I read alot about philosophy, and became a Christian later in life after a religious experience. Completely transformed the way I read the bible, and especially the Epistles. Not seen Tom Wright or read his books, but really like what he's saying and much of it reflects the 'knowledge' I gained/felt during my religious experience. Main thing was this knowledge that we each had a path we were to live, and that contributed to a future that God wanted, and even though we strayed, we could get back to the path. The other thing was all encompassing love of God - conversation and analysis are irrelevant compared to that love. I wrote book on this too (Christianity from the Ground Up).
When you look at the resurrection as the fulfillment of the promise to restore and regenerate, rather then the blood sacrifice and just believe the protestant churches watered it down to, things start making sense. I've had an experience to and can't understand it, a transformation of heart. A veil lifted off something I criticized so harshly
Here's an encouraging understanding of what happens when believers die in Jesus: they "sleep" (look up how frequently death is referred to a sleep) until the resurrection at the second coming; in this sleep there is no consciousness - of time, or of anything else - so there will be no perception of a delay between the the believer's last conscious moment and their coming awake at their resurrection. It will seem to happen in the very next moment. That's a very comforting belief!
Hey, we just have the same perception about death:). It is just like falling asleep, and soon wake up in the new earth, new life, i.e. the Kingdom of God.
There is no time in Heaven or Hell. Time only exists in the Universe with the Living. The prophets did not understand time vs timelessness. There is only one Jesus ... but when Jesus was on Earth ... Jesus was also in Heaven with all Believers forever & ever. Inside the Universe .. Judgement Day is in the future ( 7 000). Outside of the Universe ... all have been judged over the past 7 000 years .. and ... the Universe has been destroyed and replaced with a new Heaven(Universe). Satan is currently on Earth ... but when Jesus die and went to Hell for 3 days ... Satan was there being punished forever And this is why Jesus said 2000 years ago that you must always be ready for His return as you do not know the day or hour ... you die. The dead in Christ are raised first ... when they die. Then the living in Christ .. are raptured to Heaven to be with Jesus forever ... even though Jesus has just returned to Earth with the 144 000 to rule mankind for 1000 years. There is now way in Hell ... the Prophets understood time vs timelessness. lol.
However, the narration by Jesus concerning Lazarus, the rich man, and Abraham is contrary to this concept, as is the souls under the altar in heaven in Revelation 7.
Missed this 2 weeks ago but it's great confirmation by NT Wright what the Spirit had been impressing on me about what's coming after and the confusion about the bodily resurrection and being with the Lord when our present time on earth in our "earth suit" ends. What would be good for Tom to clarify is issues of the Rapture, Tribulation and the return of the Lord Jesus and the Millennia to complete the Restoration of this fallen world.
I don’t want to speak for Mr Wright but I believe he says that we are currently in the millennium as Jesus, who has all authority in heaven and on the earth, is reigning on His Throne. Those who obey His commands have entered His Kingdom as it grows and fills the earth. Those who don’t obey the King’s commands are His enemies. Then on the Last Day as the King descends His disciples are caught up in the clouds with Him to usher Him back to the new earth. There will be judgment where those who entered His Kingdom while alive will inherit eternal life. Then the enemies will be thrown into the Lake of Fire which is their second death. Finally, death and the grave will be thrown into the Lake of Fire so it will be no more. That’s my understanding of what Mr Wright says on other lectures/videos.
@@1754Medo you have a link to any of those videos? This is fascinating to me because most of my friends believe in the traditional rapture theory. It never set well with me this makes much more sense and I'd love to share a video about him explaining it in detail.
I agree with N.T. Wright that John's Gospel emphasizes new creation: 20:1 - on the first day of the week, when it was still dark (cf. Genesis 1:2-4). 20:6-7 - the arrangement of the grave clothes (cf. John 10:43-44 - Lazarus is still entangled in death, but Jesus is DONE with death), 20:15-16 (cf. Genesis 2:15) Mary thinks she is talking with the first man, but in fact she is talking to the last man; like Mark, John is glad to slyly employ irony. HOWEVER (or...in addition...), John 20:11-12 (cf. Romans 3:25 - God put Jesus forth as the hilasterion - the mercy seat, the Greek name for the lid of the Ark of the Covenant) angels at the head and feet of where Jesus's body lay suggests Jesus's body is the seat of mercy - this does have more of a forgiveness of sins/propitiatory cast.
Excellence in his explanation- Thank you NT! You just confirmed that i am understanding God's Love Letter as the Holy Spirit is Guiding me to. So much Love and hugs from Oregon
sleep is a simple answer to this. Just sleep, rest, take a nap. You will feel refreshed when you awake. You are resting in His hands. When you die, you have died and will be raised. Why can we not just trust God even in death?
It’s just that simple, bother. When you DIE you are DEAD. Jesus, in Revelation ch 1-“I am he that was DEAD, and behold, I am ALIVE forever more.” Death, burial, resurrection.
@gregormann7 The only reason people have a problem with where Jesus went when he died is because they don't believe God can raise the dead, so scared of death. Man wants to be a God living forever without God and so give room for Socrates and the devil.
@arliegage1380 Assuming you mean to indicate that the essential relationship of faith in Jesus has been established by you and Jesus, and that you recognize there are more commands, doctrines and practices as one grows in God's grace, they I can give you thumbs up. (Others may see your "nothing else matters" as disrespectful to more full doctrines from the bible.)
I take issue with the idea (at 2:30 in this video) that God is going to renew the existing creation, rather than take us away somewhere else. Because Jesus Himself, in John 14:1-7, tells the disciples explicitly that He is going back to God to prepare places for us in God's own house, and that He will return to fetch them and take them back there. It's pretty straightforward and difficult to misinterpret, is it not? There is no indication from Jesus in this passage that He intends to return to clean up the place where the disciples are already living. And that is the whole context for John 14:6, which is a fundamental, well-known verse quoted by almost every Christian. Or are you saying that I am misinterpreting this passage, and that I therefore have an incorrect understanding of John 14:6?
Wright said that the Greek word for place indicates a temporary existence - have to check this - but overall, I am agreeing that Christians are misled on the interpretation of endtime prophecy - it is wise to focus on the prayers "deliver us from evil" and "let your kingdom come" - i.e. things that are certain and that need our prayer (and faith) support
@@SAMBUT "Temporary existence"? That's dangerous, in the context of John 14:6. And you're putting the interpretation of end-time prophecy (apocalyptic, in the Greek meaning of that word, the most difficult style of ancient writings to understand and interpret) at a higher level than the straightforward understanding of a direct quotation from Jesus Himself? I'm sorry, but that is stretching things way too far. I trust what Jesus said in preference to the many and varied interpretations of ancient apocalyptic imagery any day.
@@robwhythe793 Wright said something along those lines; that the place Jesus prepares for his followers, the word for 'place' in Greek implies something temporary, he said that those 'asleep' will however be with Christ, but the new body, i.e. that which is not temporary, we will receive when Jesus returns, when those 'asleep in Christ' will rise first - all of this does therefore more or less relate to endtime, including the rapture which was talked about - a comment is too short as to be able to make 100% sure that things could not be misunderstood - as you also say, endtime prophecy is difficult - so it gets commonly misinterpreted, therefore it is wise to focus on the prayers mentioned above, i.e. what Jesus has taught us to anticipate in faith/prayer
@@SAMBUT But that's my point: Jesus did not say, or imply, that He would return to take us somewhere else temporarily. Your interpretations make no sense. However, there's probably little point in continuing with this, because you don't seem to be responding to my points.
@robwhythe793 I'm not necessarily saying that Jesus did say that he takes us somewhere temporary, I'm just try to clarify of what I understood Wright had meant to say, and I myself will have to take time to check this out, if e.g. his translation of the Greek would be a good option - overall, however, the things he said did make a lot of sense to me, e.g., he talked about the dead under the altar who asked, "how long...?", then in Paul's letters the saints were worried to die prior of Jesus's return, and Paul said, "Don't worry, they will be raised just prior and we will together meet the Lord in the air - so the place where people who are saved are, when they go home to be with the Lord; they are with the Lord, but they are not arrived at their ultimate destiny because that would be only after their bodily resurrection
If minute 22:36 (you will see the Son on Man coming on the clouds of heaven...) is not meant to be understoond literally, how then should Matthew 23,39 (For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.) be understood?
Dont believe liars, we know what the truth is, pray their eyes of their heart be opened to the truth! Jesus is Lord, this modern world awaits a false messiah.........
The quote "blessed is he..." is from a psalm of victory. Jesus is predicting the temple destruction in context of his victory. Add this to the "son of man" reference which comes specifically from Daniel 7 which is a vision of the ascension as Christ Jesus our king takes his throne. He is the rock cut out not by human hands (from king Nebs dream in Daniel 2) and he is the "son of man" coming (up to heaven). The language used in Matthew 24 regarding the temple destruction is pulling from several prophecies of the OT. And while the language sounds very "END times," it is not. It is used when speaking of a major political shift of power throughout the old testament and that is exactly what is happening at the temple destruction..Jesus victory as king. Aldo look at the word "end" in the English in Matt 24. There are two Greek word. Very important as the disciples asked about the end of all time (suntelea), but Jesus speaks about a different end (telos).
If you're still confused read the below in the first chapter of Acts. "And THEY also said" (truthful words of unfallen, ANGELS of God)... Acts 1:11 "and they also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”"
I have a lot of questions. God is in heaven, Jesus is sitting at His righthand. Jesus says to the sinner on the cross he will be with Him in Paradise. So the sinner's spirit must be with Jesus in heaven. The raising of bodies from the dead and the ones alive is the receiving of a new body just as Christ when he had risen from the dead. Revelation refers to the saints in heaven asking God when he will revenge their blood. Why is there an issue about heaven and where people go when they die. It also amazes me that only the learned people can understand the bible and interpret what was written. They also nowadays claim that the early translators failed to translate certain words or passages correctly from the hebrew or greek and give their explanation as to make their point. So we as everyday christians can't read the bible for what it is but need a learned friend like NT Wright to explain it to us which I find very disturbing. I value his knowledge and agree with him on some things like Jesus is the new temple that will be among us but not on others.
It’s more so that it’s tricky to translate some of these words because English doesn’t quite carry the same meaning. He’s trying to make the point that God made a good creation, it’s been spoiled, and he’s coming back to renew it. A lot of our understanding today is from medieval interpretations which is a far cry from what first century Christian’s believed.
Have you ever notice that the bible speaks of the angle IN heaven god IN heaven ,but of the kingdom it says ,the kingdom of heaven of or the heavenly kingdon , but never say the kingdom IN heaven .we are told by christ to pray: let your kingdom come and your will be done on earth ,when the kingdom comes to earth and gods will is done on earth will you leave ??? Zech 9: 9-10 Christian love and blessing
Why do you put on screen. . . *watch the full episode now* but you don't provide a link to take you there? Neither do you give the title of the full episode. *What's the point ! ?*
Great talk! As always a delight to listen to Dr. Wright. A small annotation I would make: In my opinion if one interprets the Son of Man title in the Gospels it is also crucial to look at later texts like 1hen in order to understand the transformation from the application of the "Son of Man" title to Israel, to the application of the title to an eschatological figure. The vindication of the Son of Man then, in my opinion, can indeed be interpreted as a visible coming as the judge of the world. But still interesting take on the temple destruction...
2 Corinthians 5:6-8 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
If when believers die, they go wherever Jesus is and there they will remain until the restoration of all things; fine. Wouldn't that mean that when Christ returns - all those with Him will also return with Him to earth?
Some men who saw it spread the message. The Gospels are the written record of some of their testimonies. The people who believed them and wrote about it become the church fathers. The people who didn't believe them and wrote about it were anti-Christian writers eg Tacitus, Pliny etc
It happened during a Roman dictatorship and obviously there wasn't any way to send a message internationally instantly back then. Even with the technology we have today, how much do you think the dictatorships today sensor what gets in/out of their country, or spreads through their country, especially when it threatens the authority of those in power? Jesus grew up under that dictatorship from the family of a lowly carpenter, in a setting where status was potentially even more extremely held than today in terms of who knew who, etc, while associating with the lowest members of those societies, the people those with authority turned their nose up at as their status would be damaged if they were known to have associated with these 'lesser people', like how cockroaches wash themselves if they've touched/been touched by a human, yet He still became internationally known thousands of years later, while headline news gets forgotten about within weeks, even when the most powerful individuals alive are involved.
I still found that quite confusing. Contrary to much of the teaching I have received on Heaven, Jesus’ return and The Rapture. It doesn’t clarify much in my head I am afraid.
I'm listening to this for the third time because I want to soak it all in. But right at about 4 min 30+, Dr Wright says if the man who died is a baptized believer he will be with Jesus. He can't be saying we have to be baptized to be saved, can he?? I do not believe that.
A long, long time ago I read in "Gramophone" magazine a review of an LP of plainsong. The author said that plainsong is the music of the soul in exile from its God.
I find it intriguing that the various Christian interpreters have a tendency to identify others that do it incorrectly. Seems that is how it becomes so many denominations of Christianity rather than the one church that Christ was building. Mmmm🤔
"I find it intriguing that the various Christian interpreters have a tendency to identify others that do it incorrectly. Seems that is how it becomes so many denominations of Christianity rather than the one church that Christ was building. Mmmm" How is any other endeavor that humans engage in any different? People with any sense whatsoever know that they don't know everything, so they take other interpretations and compare and contrast their understanding with others. Christ still IS building one church... I don't know exactly what it will look like when it is "complete" but it will be one that can grow in relationship with Him for eternity. To think that is something that will come about simply, to me, makes no sense at all.
I would love to ask.. if you would figure out that everything you ever thought about death, the second coming etc, was wrong, would you accept it and change your message?
@@homemadetheology When you say that hasn't been your experience, are you saying you've experienced something that could be described as having everything you've thought about death, etc as wrong and struggled to 'accept it' or are you suggesting you've presented what you've felt is a conclusive denial of factuality in someone else's understanding and found they've not responded 'appropriately' how you've perceived it? People can experience things very differently, and so they could have something they experience as not covered by your experience of those same statements. They can also be convinced from decades of that making the most sense that they can't just immediately turn their back on, they need to be able to process the new information at their own pace, especially if it's got huge implications, or is experienced as having huge implications. Needing time to process it on their own isn't the same as having a hardened mind or heart against what you might be sharing. Only God can know if that's the underlying cause of what you might perceive as resistance. Another thing to keep in mind is relating to how significantly people vary to one another yet again. Even if the initial explanation and your understanding of that explanation appears to be conflicting with one another, it may not actually be as contradictory as that. You could ultimately agree with everything being said, you just need to hear it from a different perspective or dwell on it for a while yourself to see it. Not every slap to the face will continue to sting afterwards. Of course there's the need to remember to not get distracted from the core element the Bible exists for, to show God fulfilled the human side of the covenant He made with humanity to rule over the rest of His creation with Him through Jesus paying the ultimate price as our guarantor for entering the New Creation with Him. Ultimately, someone can have an 'incorrect' idea for everything after death, etc if they still hold on to that. Sometimes allowing them to hold on to some incorrect beliefs can prevent them from doubting the key details that they must hold on to for Salvation. We don't have to know how exactly Jesus will return, just that He will not forget about us and we will meet Him again to spend eternity with Him if we sustain our faith in Him. We should all remain united by this, no matter how much we may differ in opinions beyond that.
@@markwright3161 What I mean is that people that have their Christian identity wrapped up in a certain point of doctrine when presented with facts that not only refute but 100% deny the doctrine they have stood behind and wrote books about will simply ignore the evidence and continue preaching lies.
I SAY TO YOU *_TODAY,_* (TODAY, is a reference to the day when Jesus spoke the words). . .You will be with me in paradise. (just move the comma, which is not there in the original text) Be in paradise when, today? NO, not 'today', but at some time in the future, after the Resurrection.
I SAY TO YOU *_TODAY,_* (TODAY, is a reference to the day when Jesus spoke the words). . .You will be with me in paradise. (just move the comma, which is not there in the original text) Be in paradise when, today? NO, not 'today', but at some time in the future, after the Resurrection.
At 6:04, Wright conflates the Greek word for "mansion" with the Greek word for "cemetery." This, I feel, is a deliberate misrepresentation, since it's a necessary (false) pillar to bolster up further aspects of an unsound theology. Here is the entry for "cemetery" from Etymology Online--read it for yourself: cemetery (n.) "burial ground, place set aside for burial of the dead," late 14c., cimiterie, from Old French cimetiere "graveyard" (12c.), from Medieval Latin cemeterium, Late Latin coemeterium, from Greek koimeterion "sleeping place, dormitory," from koiman "to put to sleep," keimai "I lie down," from PIE root *kei- (1) "to lie," also forming words for "bed, couch." Early Christian writers were the first to use it for "burial ground," though the Greek word also had been anciently used in reference to the sleep of death. In Middle English simeterie, cymytory, cimitere, etc.; forms with cem- are attested from late 15c. An Old English word for "cemetery" was licburg (see lich (n.)). In 19c. typically a large public burial ground not attached to a church. COMPARE TO: μοναὶ (monai) Noun - Nominative Feminine Plural Strong's Greek 3438: Lodging, dwelling-place, room, abode, mansion. From meno; a staying, i.e. Residence. >After this comparison of terms, it's crystal-clear that Wright is speaking (in) error. *** In short, the body "sleeps" in the cemetery ("the wayside inn," if you will), but the rest of the person is in the immediate presence of Christ. Where is Christ? At the right hand of God. Where is God? On the throne of heaven. Simple. Jesus and the apostle Paul confirm this dynamic, or schema, in several places in The New Testament: Consider Jairus' daughter; consider Paul's words to the Thessalonians regarding those who've "fallen asleep in Christ." There are others. Don't be misled by a prolix and fast-talking man.
Wordplay is used throughout the Bible to get points across, so how can you be sure this wasn't the original choice of the texts and that Wright isn't just skipping that explanation for the sake of time? In Hebrew, the first human being made out of the dirt/earth is an example. I only have an English keyboard so the best I can show is 'Adam' and adama' from how I've heard it pronounced. Jesus spoke Aramiac (or a dialect of/relating to it (I'm not a linguist, just trying to recall the stuff from memory)) and Greek if I'm recalling correctly, so wordplay in both could have been possible, and likely deliberate given how the rest of the Bible goes. If they (Jesus and His disciples who complied events for the formation of the New Testament) spoke English and understood today's turns of phrase, etc, they might have drew a parallel between death bed, a flower bed (like could be planted on a grave) and the bed people go to sleep in every night, or using 'rest'' to correlate resting at night/each day with the eternal rest we'll experience when the New Creation arrives and how a body is 'laid to rest' when they die in between the repeating cycle of resting here and reaching the eternal rest of the New Creation. I think this would be the English version of the definition you showed where it also means 'sleeping place' alongside 'cemetery'.
Tom is right up until minute 17. Jesus speaks a lot about people being taken and the coming like a thief in the night. Tom thinks that he has to just address the dispensational view about people being raptured, but the far more compelling view is that people are taken, but they are taken to judgement by his angelic army. Being taken is exactly what one doesnt want to happen!
In Ezekiel they have God leaving the temple and going elsewhere because of the abominations of the people. So God does dwell in his temple but then Jesus comes and talks about the temple being in us when we accept Jesus. So I think those that accept Jesus are part of the temple.
"The next day the older daughter said to the younger, “Last night I slept with my father. Let’s get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and sleep with him so we can preserve our family line through our father.” So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went in and slept with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up. So both of Lot’s daughters became pregnant by their father." Genesis 19:30-38
Yes....the Bible does not hide anything, or pretend that sin does not occur....a basic reading of the whole Bible will reveal how these two children, ended up persecuting the descendants of Abraham.....look also at all the others sins, and the consequences of that sin, as with David and his sinful relationship with Bathsheba...the spilt of the Kingdom....however, when we return to God in repentance, he redeems us, by His grace, through the Work and Person of Jesus Christ..
Kingdom of heaven exists only in our hearts (its not a tangible manmade kingdom, it cannot be.) until the return of Messiah Jesus! Our hope is not in this world, the world is at enmity with Messiah Jesus -ENEMIES! We are not to love this world or the things of this world, our hope is in a heavenly Jerusalem ... Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world! (John ch18 vs 36) New Yahrusalem comes down out of the heavens This world eventually passes away! This modern world is ruled by Antimessiah/Antichrist. NO MAN MADE THEOCRACY!
We are ignoring NDEs and the countless testimony of the soul leaving the body at death and engaging in the particular judgment and their reluctance to returning to the physical realm
Or, He was in the grave for a full 3 day cycle, and the Church interpreted dates of the designated and recorded Jewish Feast Days (starting at sunset and ending at Sunrise) are distorted by changed Roman calendars, and the historic level of influence the Roman Church. The latter is more in keeping with God's perfect plan and fulfillment of such small matters, as His Feast Days, His fullfillments of His Prophecies, rather than twisting God's use of Hebrew people, Hebrew language, to record and share His plans, are more reasonably reliable.
Wait a minute so the question is How Wright understands the Rapture. Okay but he never talked about this: We will be caught up with HIm the Lord Jesus to meet him in the Aire. What happenned. and I hope there isn't going to be a mention of Metaphors, an airy explanation to explain away the Obvious Very Literal Understanding. Explain anyone.
A new earth? If Jesus returns to restore the earth and give us eternal life. won't the earth be people with the "saved" since time began and very crowded?
Ephesians 2:6. We are made alive together with Christ, raised with him from death, and have been seated together with him in heavenly places. 2 Corinthians 5:8 speaks of a preference to be absent from the body but present with the Lord. From these verses we know that that we already have a heavenly presence in Christ which will continue when we depart from these mortal bodies. So, there is no going to heaven because we are already there in Christ, but when we die we leave this body and continue living with Christ. And Christ will dwell together with His people forever in the new heaven and new earth (Revelation 2:1-2). The new Jerusalem is described as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. A city is a dwelling place for people and the people are the temple. The language is picturesque and metaphorical, but the people and the Lord are truly the focus. They will be together and everything will be new forever.
Paradise is not a temporary place. See Rev 2:7. Wright does not understand the Hebraic idiom used by Jesus in Luke 23:43. Jesus was not saying the thief would be with Jesus in Paradise on that very same day.
Religions use traditions to try to explain things. Scientific research seeks to investigate things. Explanation is not a primary issue in scientific thinking, and many people are not necessarily able to understand scientific explanations. In science, observations are not interpreted as matching wishes. Rather, religions explain everything and therefore a person does not have to bother to think about things in more detail, when they only become more complicated and unbelievable by thinking critically, as the number of religions and beliefs shows.
What we mean by that varies person to person. Mostly it’s meaningless drivel. But is appears I should’ve had someone read scripture to me with incredible background music, at least according to the ad the proceed of this. Then I could impress people with my incredible biblical knowledge.
Tell that to Jesus, or almost all of the apostles, or the Christians who were thrown to the wild beasts or used as torches in Rome in the first couple of centuries. Phil 1:29--"For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also SUFFER for his sake,"
Heaven - YES, Resurrection - YES, Rapture - NO. We were all meant to live in Heaven after our time in the physical world. Besides, who wants to live in the physical world forever when the spirit world is far more beautiful and wonderful AND where God dwells.?
@ 4:37 our faith has nothing to do with Baptism! we are saved by the blood of the lamb and NOTHING else. The Death and Resurrection is the Grace that is received from belief in Christ alone. Other wise the thief on the cross would not enter as he hadn't been baptized. Baptism would steal the Glory Given to Christ for the punishment put on him for our sins. We do not need to be a "believing and baptized member of the body of Christ".
By far, the most historically probable explanation for the empty tomb is that the Romans removed the body to fake the resurrection. Pilate, alone, had the ability to do it plus he was greatly motivated to do it. He wanted the extremely pro-Roman teachings of Jesus to continue, plus he wanted to exact revenge on the religious leaders for forcing him to murder an innocent man. Ability + Motivation = Historical Probability. The same is true in a murder case. Therefore, the Romans probably did it.
For Christiansall good things happen ‘in Jesus’. What the hell they mean by that, only they know. (And Why does god need to rescue the world that he himself has created?)
The point is we are going to be where Jesus is and where is Jesus right now? What was he talking about when he said you will be with me? Clearly it’s going to heaven maybe that’s not permanent maybe there is a return to worry use of both earth and heaven, but to be in heaven with Christ, you must have some part of you that is not a physical human body. You also have Lazarus and the rich man even if it’s a pure, Jesus making the point that there is life after death outside of your body you can experience and know where you are. It’s a different location, etc. etc.. I think the church have a little bit off, but it’s clear to me, and I was raised Jehovah’s Witness, which believes none of that, that the Bible does teach some form of afterlife in heaven, even in the Old Testament. Sheol what is the destination of all of the dead good and bad and they were aware of it when they were there. NTR is a really intelligent man and I like a lot of what he says but he’s wrong on this
Yes , I'm aware of this one day in the lord could be a thousand years for us humans ! However , this gospel [ the good news ) bible shows in the sayings of this Jesus was that he was going to return in the generation living THEN not NOW and that many living then would not die and still be alive to see the coming of Jesus with the angels in the clouds ! Revelation , chapter 22 simply affirms his previous promises as to his coming " SOON " ! And 1900+ years later the faithful are still waiting in vain for this event to happen !
No more silence , look at the examples of scripture. When Stephen was stoned , he opened his eyes and saw Jesus waiting to receive him into glory! The thief on the cross was told “today you will be with me in paradise”! Paul said “absent from the body is present with the Lord” he was ready to lay aside his tent or his fleshly body that returns to dust as his spirit goes straight to God as Ecclesiastes promises. Judgement day for the individual happens when we die, although certain behaviors will bring judgement in this life. It was the Sadducees and the pagan who couldn’t believe in what they couldn’t see , beware of the leaven of the Pharisee and the SADDUCEES (no spirit or afterlife)!
If you're still confused by this endless allegorical hermeneutic mixed-metaphor word salad, read the below in the first chapter of Acts. "And THEY also said" (truthful words of unfallen, ANGELS of God)... Acts 1:11 "and they also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”"
Sorry I’m confused here. This verse talks about Jesus coming again. This points to heaven coming back to earth more than believers leaving. So what is problematic about NT Wright is saying
@@pantygwydrbaptistchurch5206 Yes, only somewhat. This verse is about one aspect of the παρουσία; a broader term. Good not to confuse the aspects and several descriptive contrasts between the final παρουσία... and the αρπαγεσόμεθα in I Thess. 4, and described in I Cor. 15. John 14, etc. 👍🙏
It always astonishes me as to how seemingly intelligent and scholarly people like this can continue to assert these bronze / iron age myths , fables and shaman invented fiction stories ! And that it's considered to be real and authentic ! That anyone should take any of this Nonsense seriously is Incredible !! After all , did not this jesus promise in revelation chapter 22 , that he would be returning " SOON " ( quickly ) with he father yahwehs celestial kingdom , and repeated his promise THREE TIMES ! And that was 1900 + years ago ! This SOON is taking a LooooooooonG time for this gospel , good news to happen !
I'm not even sure do I fully believe, but you're going to need to do much, much better with your arguments if you're going to try and successfully put your "I'm cleverer than you" shtick across on videos like these. Your main takedown here is that Jesus said he'd be returning soon, but hasn't returned soon enough for your liking yet. This is wafer thin. God's concept of time would invariably be radically different to ours. It says in Peter "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." Peace.
Excellent question! I suggest you challenge to innumerable verifications, which grow and multiply in quality and quantity daily. Try using a note taking system, record all your questions, evaluate the Scripture in question, verify the context, the speaker, and note the questions or challenges you have. There are basic rules of scientific method you can use, and which have been used to evaluate all 66 books comprising the whole Bible. If you are a skeptic, you need to understand your own starting assumptions too. They should become more clear as you do work out your evaluation. But, the basic rule applies, if you are making a claim of fact, you must base it on known evidence and facts. You apparently have no reasons to assume or claim that the Bible is not to be believed. It clearly states itself to be honest reporting, and subject to rules and ethics of honesty, in fact identifying God with all the highest virtues. Though not direct evidence of Bible credibility, what do you think about people smarter than you and me who have identifified the Bible as credible, reliable, and accurate in its claims and reports? What of those who are in the leading edge of all the sciences who support the Bible claims, like Dr. Francis Collins who led the Human Genome project? And what of the intelligent scholars who lived as atheists, and then became Christians believing the claims of the Bible. - LIke Antony Flew or David Berlinski? There are some documented on this TH-cam channel, or in this algorithm propagated video stream. Like all subjects we start out as ignorant, even if we can read the language that records the information we study. Try planning an organized web search of universities which include theology studies; research the central term of importance in the Bible scripture "faith". It is NOT exclusive of evidence or reason. The Bible instructs people to investigate, to consider seriously, the issues taught in scripture and taught by people claiming to represent the Bible. Use Concordances, online and in good editions of print bibles. It organizes an index of all references to any subject you may be interested in.
@scoramg1 In the Bible, 2 Kings 2:11 says, "And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" Nothing like the "rapture" taught today... bad try
When Lord Jesus died he ceased to exist death is cessation of life he didn't go anywhere after death His life went to God not Jesus but His life, actually he died His body was in the tomb his life went to His father but after 3 days life came from father and entered the dead body of Jesus and he rose again from the dead and grave, death or cessation of life wages of sin is death our death punishment Lord Jesus took and ceseesed to exist for 3 days then when He received life from Father He lived again
In Heaven there is a beautiful garden. The angels tend all the plants and the tulips last forever. Everybody will have a sunbed next to a private swimming pool.
You're absolutely right; and there can be no more extraordinary eye-witness evidence than the willingness to die or suffer persecution for what you've seen. And what you yourself have seen is epistemologically different from what someone else told you, so other religions are not in the same category..
I could never understand why people would base their lives on fantasy books like the bible, torah, quran or any of the other approximately 3,000 deities recorded in human history! A mental weakness...or the fear of death?
You can spiritualize the truth away, but Jesus warned everyone to repent from sin, to watch and pray always to be accounted worthy to ESCAPE all the things that are coming to pass and stand before him (Luke 21). What chance does anyone have who doesn't even believe that Jesus promised to go create a place for us in heaven then come receive us there (John 14), let alone prepare as he warned?
Sorry bud, you are mistaken. Research Chiliasm and Messianic Belief in first century. Some 19th century preachers made error of predicting specific dates/times for fulfillment of foretold Rapture. The errors included drastic, property selling and giving, causing harm after the preacher's dates came and passed. This led to numerous mocking press accounts of "Millerites," and the fame they generated. Your fallacy is undifferentiated or improperly specified claims of fact. Many ideologs from Reformed Churches make similar mistakes and false claims. It must have been bound to happen! ;-) Research Dispensational theology. The Covenants of God (over 5 of them, Adamic, Noahic, Abrahamic, Mosaic, Davidic). Study reliable Messianic Christian interpretation of Scripture - as Jesus is Jewish.
It seems to me That N T Wright Has some sort of "Gnosis" or, at least esoteric Views concerning Heaven & The Rapture in particular! What Was the real Meaning behind That word-salad pontification!?? HUH!??
I agree. I think the amazing, undeniably attention getting multiple natural signs and wonders in the skies of the world and on the planet, may be prompting his little anti-Rapture spiel. He likely rationalizes it as: "Don't worry people! These clear signs so notable by Believers and others are not to motivate you to any immediate panic. (unspoken: Even though there is war within the territory of the prophesied return of Israel to her land, and these are undeniable signs and wonders, and also happening within days or hours of Biblical Jewish Feast Days. Just take our "Orhodox" amillennial view of eschatology - it alleviates us all from needing to learn any more about God or His specified, extremely detailed culmination of HIs plans for resolving all prior prior prophecies and plans from Scripture. I must remember not to openly insult Dispensationalists. Oh, damn! I already did that.)"
Plenty. Try reading the 66 books before attempting to disparage its credibility without any knowledge, evidence, or simple social respect. Look up Evidential Theology, science supporting Scripture. Look up comparative archaeological evidence supporting internal claims of authenticity of ANY ancient era books. There are more documentary supports for validity and credibility of content of Scripture than for all other ancient documents. Sorry you need to do homework before you have any right to assume a valid, evidence supported opinion.
@@gregrice1354 - you say that, but there's not. There is no evidence supporting any of the supernatural claims of the bible. Believe it on faith if you want but those claims require actual evidence if you want to present them as factual events.
Making assertions in a posh accent does not make them more likely to be true. NTW does a pretty good job of explaining what is said in the Bible but none of it is even remotely sensible.
@@grantbartley483 Really? Is my first statement incorrect? Does NTW do a pretty good job of explaining what's in the Bible? Whether you think it's sensible or not depends on your willingness to believe unfalsifiable claims about extra-terrestrial alien beings with superpowers.
@@grantbartley483I didn’t say God was ET. I said God, as imagined by Christians in the 21st century, is said to be an immensely powerful being (superpowers) not of this planet (extra-terrestrial alien). You can’t argue with that.
Jesus Christ is risen. Hallelujah. 🙏
Actually he’s not. He’s very much dead. Enjoy your delusion though!🙏😂
I wish I knew what it was like to be this delusional
He is risen indeed!!! Amen.
@@alexandraasbury9974 you have to keep saying it just so you can hold onto the shred of belief, don't you?
@@dipakchowdhury31 that's hilarious. Delusional to not believe in ancient fairy tales. Keep on telling yourself that.
I read alot about philosophy, and became a Christian later in life after a religious experience. Completely transformed the way I read the bible, and especially the Epistles. Not seen Tom Wright or read his books, but really like what he's saying and much of it reflects the 'knowledge' I gained/felt during my religious experience. Main thing was this knowledge that we each had a path we were to live, and that contributed to a future that God wanted, and even though we strayed, we could get back to the path. The other thing was all encompassing love of God - conversation and analysis are irrelevant compared to that love. I wrote book on this too (Christianity from the Ground Up).
When you look at the resurrection as the fulfillment of the promise to restore and regenerate, rather then the blood sacrifice and just believe the protestant churches watered it down to, things start making sense.
I've had an experience to and can't understand it, a transformation of heart. A veil lifted off something I criticized so harshly
Here's an encouraging understanding of what happens when believers die in Jesus: they "sleep" (look up how frequently death is referred to a sleep) until the resurrection at the second coming; in this sleep there is no consciousness - of time, or of anything else - so there will be no perception of a delay between the the believer's last conscious moment and their coming awake at their resurrection. It will seem to happen in the very next moment. That's a very comforting belief!
Hey, we just have the same perception about death:). It is just like falling asleep, and soon wake up in the new earth, new life, i.e. the Kingdom of God.
There is no time in Heaven or Hell. Time only exists in the Universe with the Living.
The prophets did not understand time vs timelessness.
There is only one Jesus ... but when Jesus was on Earth ... Jesus was also in Heaven with all Believers forever & ever.
Inside the Universe .. Judgement Day is in the future ( 7 000).
Outside of the Universe ... all have been judged over the past 7 000 years .. and ... the Universe has been destroyed and replaced with a new Heaven(Universe).
Satan is currently on Earth ... but when Jesus die and went to Hell for 3 days ... Satan was there being punished forever
And this is why Jesus said 2000 years ago that you must always be ready for His return as you do not know the day or hour ... you die.
The dead in Christ are raised first ... when they die. Then the living in Christ .. are raptured to Heaven to be with Jesus forever ... even though Jesus has just returned to Earth with the 144 000 to rule mankind for 1000 years.
There is now way in Hell ... the Prophets understood time vs timelessness. lol.
Some excellent points are here made. I will not forget them.
However, the narration by Jesus concerning Lazarus, the rich man, and Abraham is contrary to this concept, as is the souls under the altar in heaven in Revelation 7.
What about 'to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord'? 2Cor 5:8
Missed this 2 weeks ago but it's great confirmation by NT Wright what the Spirit had been impressing on me about what's coming after and the confusion about the bodily resurrection and being with the Lord when our present time on earth in our "earth suit" ends.
What would be good for Tom to clarify is issues of the Rapture, Tribulation and the return of the Lord Jesus and the Millennia to complete the Restoration of this fallen world.
I don’t want to speak for Mr Wright but I believe he says that we are currently in the millennium as Jesus, who has all authority in heaven and on the earth, is reigning on His Throne. Those who obey His commands have entered His Kingdom as it grows and fills the earth. Those who don’t obey the King’s commands are His enemies. Then on the Last Day as the King descends His disciples are caught up in the clouds with Him to usher Him back to the new earth. There will be judgment where those who entered His Kingdom while alive will inherit eternal life. Then the enemies will be thrown into the Lake of Fire which is their second death. Finally, death and the grave will be thrown into the Lake of Fire so it will be no more.
That’s my understanding of what Mr Wright says on other lectures/videos.
@@1754Me
@@1754Medo you have a link to any of those videos? This is fascinating to me because most of my friends believe in the traditional rapture theory. It never set well with me this makes much more sense and I'd love to share a video about him explaining it in detail.
Good explanation! This is the TRUTH as it is Written in the Bible
I agree with N.T. Wright that John's Gospel emphasizes new creation: 20:1 - on the first day of the week, when it was still dark (cf. Genesis 1:2-4). 20:6-7 - the arrangement of the grave clothes (cf. John 10:43-44 - Lazarus is still entangled in death, but Jesus is DONE with death), 20:15-16 (cf. Genesis 2:15) Mary thinks she is talking with the first man, but in fact she is talking to the last man; like Mark, John is glad to slyly employ irony. HOWEVER (or...in addition...), John 20:11-12 (cf. Romans 3:25 - God put Jesus forth as the hilasterion - the mercy seat, the Greek name for the lid of the Ark of the Covenant) angels at the head and feet of where Jesus's body lay suggests Jesus's body is the seat of mercy - this does have more of a forgiveness of sins/propitiatory cast.
Another great lesson Bishop Wright. I’m always impressed how so many people in the comment section are ready to correct an expert Bible scholar…
Excellence in his explanation- Thank you NT! You just confirmed that i am understanding God's Love Letter as the Holy Spirit is Guiding me to. So much Love and hugs from Oregon
God is not restrained by time and space as we are hear on earth now,when we die we will be in for a big surprises.🙏❤️
Totally makes sense when I connect the Old Testament with the new.
Brilliant! I need to think carefully, and review what I believe.
sleep is a simple answer to this. Just sleep, rest, take a nap. You will feel refreshed when you awake. You are resting in His hands. When you die, you have died and will be raised. Why can we not just trust God even in death?
It’s just that simple, bother. When you DIE you are DEAD. Jesus, in Revelation ch 1-“I am he that was DEAD, and behold, I am ALIVE forever more.”
Death, burial, resurrection.
@gregormann7 The only reason people have a problem with where Jesus went when he died is because they don't believe God can raise the dead, so scared of death. Man wants to be a God living forever without God and so give room for Socrates and the devil.
Im saved, nothing else matters🎉
@arliegage1380 Assuming you mean to indicate that the essential relationship of faith in Jesus has been established by you and Jesus, and that you recognize there are more commands, doctrines and practices as one grows in God's grace, they I can give you thumbs up. (Others may see your "nothing else matters" as disrespectful to more full doctrines from the bible.)
This was really interesting. First time hearing of the vindication of Jesus and the destruction of the temple. I need to get some NT Wright books.
"Suprised by Hope" by N.T.Wright is a very good book. And for complementary read I would recommend "Reversing Hermon" by Michael Heiser.
Harry potter, or Spider-Man would just as good it’s all fiction
Why are you here? @@vanishingpoint7411
@@vanishingpoint7411 for your own amusement? Or because you’re a sad person who chooses to believe in the fiction of atheism?
@michaelbrickley2443 Don't engage the lost trolls! Don't respond and they will vanish away.
I take issue with the idea (at 2:30 in this video) that God is going to renew the existing creation, rather than take us away somewhere else. Because Jesus Himself, in John 14:1-7, tells the disciples explicitly that He is going back to God to prepare places for us in God's own house, and that He will return to fetch them and take them back there. It's pretty straightforward and difficult to misinterpret, is it not? There is no indication from Jesus in this passage that He intends to return to clean up the place where the disciples are already living. And that is the whole context for John 14:6, which is a fundamental, well-known verse quoted by almost every Christian. Or are you saying that I am misinterpreting this passage, and that I therefore have an incorrect understanding of John 14:6?
Wright said that the Greek word for place indicates a temporary existence - have to check this - but overall, I am agreeing that Christians are misled on the interpretation of endtime prophecy - it is wise to focus on the prayers "deliver us from evil" and "let your kingdom come" - i.e. things that are certain and that need our prayer (and faith) support
@@SAMBUT "Temporary existence"? That's dangerous, in the context of John 14:6. And you're putting the interpretation of end-time prophecy (apocalyptic, in the Greek meaning of that word, the most difficult style of ancient writings to understand and interpret) at a higher level than the straightforward understanding of a direct quotation from Jesus Himself? I'm sorry, but that is stretching things way too far. I trust what Jesus said in preference to the many and varied interpretations of ancient apocalyptic imagery any day.
@@robwhythe793 Wright said something along those lines; that the place Jesus prepares for his followers, the word for 'place' in Greek implies something temporary, he said that those 'asleep' will however be with Christ, but the new body, i.e. that which is not temporary, we will receive when Jesus returns, when those 'asleep in Christ' will rise first - all of this does therefore more or less relate to endtime, including the rapture which was talked about - a comment is too short as to be able to make 100% sure that things could not be misunderstood - as you also say, endtime prophecy is difficult - so it gets commonly misinterpreted, therefore it is wise to focus on the prayers mentioned above, i.e. what Jesus has taught us to anticipate in faith/prayer
@@SAMBUT But that's my point: Jesus did not say, or imply, that He would return to take us somewhere else temporarily. Your interpretations make no sense. However, there's probably little point in continuing with this, because you don't seem to be responding to my points.
@robwhythe793 I'm not necessarily saying that Jesus did say that he takes us somewhere temporary, I'm just try to clarify of what I understood Wright had meant to say, and I myself will have to take time to check this out, if e.g. his translation of the Greek would be a good option - overall, however, the things he said did make a lot of sense to me, e.g., he talked about the dead under the altar who asked, "how long...?", then in Paul's letters the saints were worried to die prior of Jesus's return, and Paul said, "Don't worry, they will be raised just prior and we will together meet the Lord in the air - so the place where people who are saved are, when they go home to be with the Lord; they are with the Lord, but they are not arrived at their ultimate destiny because that would be only after their bodily resurrection
Como me gustaría ver estos valiosos videos traducidos al español. Lamentablemente no sé inglés así que no puedo aprovecharlos.
Se puede traducir todos de los videos en TH-cam. Oprima el "cc" a ver mucho linguages.
@@gregrice1354 Gracias!!!
Have missed this interviewer he's good
This is very very interesting. But I'll need a few listens!!
I wish NT Wright spoke more concise and clearly.....
What about the thousand year reign of Christ?(Revelation 20:6) This is even before the new heavens and earth.
If minute 22:36 (you will see the Son on Man coming on the clouds of heaven...) is not meant to be understoond literally, how then should Matthew 23,39 (For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.) be understood?
Dont believe liars, we know what the truth is, pray their eyes of their heart be opened to the truth!
Jesus is Lord, this modern world awaits a false messiah.........
The quote "blessed is he..." is from a psalm of victory. Jesus is predicting the temple destruction in context of his victory. Add this to the "son of man" reference which comes specifically from Daniel 7 which is a vision of the ascension as Christ Jesus our king takes his throne. He is the rock cut out not by human hands (from king Nebs dream in Daniel 2) and he is the "son of man" coming (up to heaven).
The language used in Matthew 24 regarding the temple destruction is pulling from several prophecies of the OT. And while the language sounds very "END times," it is not. It is used when speaking of a major political shift of power throughout the old testament and that is exactly what is happening at the temple destruction..Jesus victory as king.
Aldo look at the word "end" in the English in Matt 24. There are two Greek word. Very important as the disciples asked about the end of all time (suntelea), but Jesus speaks about a different end (telos).
If you're still confused read the below in the first chapter of Acts.
"And THEY also said"
(truthful words of unfallen, ANGELS of God)...
Acts 1:11
"and they also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky?
This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”"
Son of man Mathew 25 Wil judge
Ignore the hapless trolls!
Yes! Amen. Testify brother/sister! ;-)
I have a lot of questions. God is in heaven, Jesus is sitting at His righthand. Jesus says to the sinner on the cross he will be with Him in Paradise. So the sinner's spirit must be with Jesus in heaven. The raising of bodies from the dead and the ones alive is the receiving of a new body just as Christ when he had risen from the dead. Revelation refers to the saints in heaven asking God when he will revenge their blood. Why is there an issue about heaven and where people go when they die. It also amazes me that only the learned people can understand the bible and interpret what was written. They also nowadays claim that the early translators failed to translate certain words or passages correctly from the hebrew or greek and give their explanation as to make their point. So we as everyday christians can't read the bible for what it is but need a learned friend like NT Wright to explain it to us which I find very disturbing. I value his knowledge and agree with him on some things like Jesus is the new temple that will be among us but not on others.
It’s more so that it’s tricky to translate some of these words because English doesn’t quite carry the same meaning. He’s trying to make the point that God made a good creation, it’s been spoiled, and he’s coming back to renew it. A lot of our understanding today is from medieval interpretations which is a far cry from what first century Christian’s believed.
Have you ever notice that the bible speaks of the angle IN heaven god IN heaven ,but of the kingdom it says ,the kingdom of heaven of or the heavenly kingdon , but never say the kingdom IN heaven .we are told by christ to pray: let your kingdom come and your will be done on earth ,when the kingdom comes to earth and gods will is done on earth will you leave ??? Zech 9: 9-10
Christian love and blessing
Why do you put on screen. . .
*watch the full episode now*
but you don't provide a link to take you there? Neither do you give the title of the full episode.
*What's the point ! ?*
Love it.
Man, I miss Justin's and NT Wright's dialogues.
Thank
Great talk! As always a delight to listen to Dr. Wright. A small annotation I would make: In my opinion if one interprets the Son of Man title in the Gospels it is also crucial to look at later texts like 1hen in order to understand the transformation from the application of the "Son of Man" title to Israel, to the application of the title to an eschatological figure. The vindication of the Son of Man then, in my opinion, can indeed be interpreted as a visible coming as the judge of the world. But still interesting take on the temple destruction...
Heavens on Earth . Michael Shermer .
That is as deep as the Belinda Carlyle song. (formerly with the GoGos)
even the blind man refers to the beginning. love NTW
2 Corinthians 5:6-8 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Yet we are raised with a physical body, like Jesus. Body and spirit are interlinked, not separate
If when believers die, they go wherever Jesus is and there they will remain until the restoration of all things; fine. Wouldn't that mean that when Christ returns - all those with Him will also return with Him to earth?
I agree with you.❤
HEAVEN IS WHERE WE GO ONLY IF WE BELEVE IN LORD JESUS THOUGHT WILL BE SAVED THATS NOT A MAYBE
How does a man rise from the dead and nobody writes about it? (outside of his small band of followers) Wouldn't this be headline news?
Some men who saw it spread the message. The Gospels are the written record of some of their testimonies. The people who believed them and wrote about it become the church fathers. The people who didn't believe them and wrote about it were anti-Christian writers eg Tacitus, Pliny etc
It happened during a Roman dictatorship and obviously there wasn't any way to send a message internationally instantly back then. Even with the technology we have today, how much do you think the dictatorships today sensor what gets in/out of their country, or spreads through their country, especially when it threatens the authority of those in power?
Jesus grew up under that dictatorship from the family of a lowly carpenter, in a setting where status was potentially even more extremely held than today in terms of who knew who, etc, while associating with the lowest members of those societies, the people those with authority turned their nose up at as their status would be damaged if they were known to have associated with these 'lesser people', like how cockroaches wash themselves if they've touched/been touched by a human, yet He still became internationally known thousands of years later, while headline news gets forgotten about within weeks, even when the most powerful individuals alive are involved.
I still found that quite confusing. Contrary to much of the teaching I have received on Heaven, Jesus’ return and The Rapture.
It doesn’t clarify much in my head I am afraid.
Please read NT Wright's book "Surprised by Hope" for more clarity. You can give more thoughts.
I'm listening to this for the third time because I want to soak it all in. But right at about 4 min 30+, Dr Wright says if the man who died is a baptized believer he will be with Jesus. He can't be saying we have to be baptized to be saved, can he?? I do not believe that.
A long, long time ago I read in "Gramophone" magazine a review of an LP of plainsong. The author said that plainsong is the music of the soul in exile from its God.
Jesus is at right hand of Father in heaven? If believers are with Jesus then they are in heaven waiting for the new creation. Worshipping presumably.
Heb 3 and 4 who will go My rest in
Why then did Jesus go up in a cloud to heven. Explain it please
I like NT Wright, but does he have the ability to give a clear concise answer ever? He goes on 5 rabbit trails when answering
You do not need to believe the rapture to be saved.
Rapture theorogy is usually bullshit anyway, or should I say, bad hermeneutics.
I find it intriguing that the various Christian interpreters have a tendency to identify others that do it incorrectly.
Seems that is how it becomes so many denominations of Christianity rather than the one church that Christ was building.
Mmmm🤔
This is nothing new. Outside of the Gospels, almost all New Testament writers deal with a poor interpretation of the Scriptures.
"I find it intriguing that the various Christian interpreters have a tendency to identify others that do it incorrectly.
Seems that is how it becomes so many denominations of Christianity rather than the one church that Christ was building.
Mmmm"
How is any other endeavor that humans engage in any different? People with any sense whatsoever know that they don't know everything, so they take other interpretations and compare and contrast their understanding with others.
Christ still IS building one church... I don't know exactly what it will look like when it is "complete" but it will be one that can grow in relationship with Him for eternity. To think that is something that will come about simply, to me, makes no sense at all.
I would love to ask.. if you would figure out that everything you ever thought about death, the second coming etc, was wrong, would you accept it and change your message?
I think anyone would, don't you?
@@ahwell9984 Nope, that has not been my experience.
@@homemadetheology When you say that hasn't been your experience, are you saying you've experienced something that could be described as having everything you've thought about death, etc as wrong and struggled to 'accept it' or are you suggesting you've presented what you've felt is a conclusive denial of factuality in someone else's understanding and found they've not responded 'appropriately' how you've perceived it?
People can experience things very differently, and so they could have something they experience as not covered by your experience of those same statements. They can also be convinced from decades of that making the most sense that they can't just immediately turn their back on, they need to be able to process the new information at their own pace, especially if it's got huge implications, or is experienced as having huge implications. Needing time to process it on their own isn't the same as having a hardened mind or heart against what you might be sharing. Only God can know if that's the underlying cause of what you might perceive as resistance.
Another thing to keep in mind is relating to how significantly people vary to one another yet again. Even if the initial explanation and your understanding of that explanation appears to be conflicting with one another, it may not actually be as contradictory as that. You could ultimately agree with everything being said, you just need to hear it from a different perspective or dwell on it for a while yourself to see it. Not every slap to the face will continue to sting afterwards.
Of course there's the need to remember to not get distracted from the core element the Bible exists for, to show God fulfilled the human side of the covenant He made with humanity to rule over the rest of His creation with Him through Jesus paying the ultimate price as our guarantor for entering the New Creation with Him. Ultimately, someone can have an 'incorrect' idea for everything after death, etc if they still hold on to that. Sometimes allowing them to hold on to some incorrect beliefs can prevent them from doubting the key details that they must hold on to for Salvation. We don't have to know how exactly Jesus will return, just that He will not forget about us and we will meet Him again to spend eternity with Him if we sustain our faith in Him. We should all remain united by this, no matter how much we may differ in opinions beyond that.
@@markwright3161 What I mean is that people that have their Christian identity wrapped up in a certain point of doctrine when presented with facts that not only refute but 100% deny the doctrine they have stood behind and wrote books about will simply ignore the evidence and continue preaching lies.
My question is where did the repentant thief go? And what were the various stops Jesus made before He ended up at His Father’s right hand?
I SAY TO YOU *_TODAY,_* (TODAY, is a reference to the day when Jesus spoke the words). . .You will be with me in paradise. (just move the comma, which is not there in the original text)
Be in paradise when, today? NO, not 'today', but at some time in the future, after the Resurrection.
I SAY TO YOU *_TODAY,_* (TODAY, is a reference to the day when Jesus spoke the words). . .You will be with me in paradise. (just move the comma, which is not there in the original text)
Be in paradise when, today? NO, not 'today', but at some time in the future, after the Resurrection.
At 6:04, Wright conflates the Greek word for "mansion" with the Greek word for "cemetery." This, I feel, is a deliberate misrepresentation, since it's a necessary (false) pillar to bolster up further aspects of an unsound theology. Here is the entry for "cemetery" from Etymology Online--read it for yourself:
cemetery (n.)
"burial ground, place set aside for burial of the dead," late 14c., cimiterie, from Old French cimetiere "graveyard" (12c.), from Medieval Latin cemeterium, Late Latin coemeterium, from Greek koimeterion "sleeping place, dormitory," from koiman "to put to sleep," keimai "I lie down," from PIE root *kei- (1) "to lie," also forming words for "bed, couch."
Early Christian writers were the first to use it for "burial ground," though the Greek word also had been anciently used in reference to the sleep of death. In Middle English simeterie, cymytory, cimitere, etc.; forms with cem- are attested from late 15c. An Old English word for "cemetery" was licburg (see lich (n.)). In 19c. typically a large public burial ground not attached to a church.
COMPARE TO:
μοναὶ (monai)
Noun - Nominative Feminine Plural
Strong's Greek 3438: Lodging, dwelling-place, room, abode, mansion. From meno; a staying, i.e. Residence.
>After this comparison of terms, it's crystal-clear that Wright is speaking (in) error.
***
In short, the body "sleeps" in the cemetery ("the wayside inn," if you will), but the rest of the person is in the immediate presence of Christ. Where is Christ? At the right hand of God. Where is God? On the throne of heaven. Simple.
Jesus and the apostle Paul confirm this dynamic, or schema, in several places in The New Testament: Consider Jairus' daughter; consider Paul's words to the Thessalonians regarding those who've "fallen asleep in Christ." There are others. Don't be misled by a prolix and fast-talking man.
And the substance of the error you aver he is making is....?
Wordplay is used throughout the Bible to get points across, so how can you be sure this wasn't the original choice of the texts and that Wright isn't just skipping that explanation for the sake of time?
In Hebrew, the first human being made out of the dirt/earth is an example. I only have an English keyboard so the best I can show is 'Adam' and adama' from how I've heard it pronounced. Jesus spoke Aramiac (or a dialect of/relating to it (I'm not a linguist, just trying to recall the stuff from memory)) and Greek if I'm recalling correctly, so wordplay in both could have been possible, and likely deliberate given how the rest of the Bible goes.
If they (Jesus and His disciples who complied events for the formation of the New Testament) spoke English and understood today's turns of phrase, etc, they might have drew a parallel between death bed, a flower bed (like could be planted on a grave) and the bed people go to sleep in every night, or using 'rest'' to correlate resting at night/each day with the eternal rest we'll experience when the New Creation arrives and how a body is 'laid to rest' when they die in between the repeating cycle of resting here and reaching the eternal rest of the New Creation. I think this would be the English version of the definition you showed where it also means 'sleeping place' alongside 'cemetery'.
Brilliant ❤
Please save me of my sins
The "no tears place" becomes reality after the 1000 year reign of Christ.
I read somewhere that the scriptures never say that Jesus will walk on the earth again. I am interested in knowing whether that is true.
kinda feel he already is been he walks with me. if felt caught up in some sense of the word over the course of my journey with JC
Tom is right up until minute 17. Jesus speaks a lot about people being taken and the coming like a thief in the night. Tom thinks that he has to just address the dispensational view about people being raptured, but the far more compelling view is that people are taken, but they are taken to judgement by his angelic army. Being taken is exactly what one doesnt want to happen!
The problem is as I'm listening is that there is too much interpolation that if you don't pause you suddenly realise its opinion not scripture
All interpretation of scripture is opinion, surely?
1CORH 15 the reserection
Revelation 21
Get into meat of the new creation in Revelation 21 and 22. 😊❤
People try to come up with new ideas. Sometimes it’s just a difference in terms ie the “the place with no tears”… you mean heaven 😑
Has NT Wright ever actually answered a question 🤔
In Ezekiel they have God leaving the temple and going elsewhere because of the abominations of the people. So God does dwell in his temple but then Jesus comes and talks about the temple being in us when we accept Jesus. So I think those that accept Jesus are part of the temple.
I personally believe 1 Thessalonians 4 is to be taken literally along with every word in the Bible.
"The next day the older daughter said to the younger, “Last night I slept with my father. Let’s get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and sleep with him so we can preserve our family line through our father.” So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went in and slept with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
So both of Lot’s daughters became pregnant by their father." Genesis 19:30-38
Yes....the Bible does not hide anything, or pretend that sin does not occur....a basic reading of the whole Bible will reveal how these two children, ended up persecuting the descendants of Abraham.....look also at all the others sins, and the consequences of that sin, as with David and his sinful relationship with Bathsheba...the spilt of the Kingdom....however, when we return to God in repentance, he redeems us, by His grace, through the Work and Person of Jesus Christ..
@@marjorieselley7416 So god created us in "sin" and then ordered us to become well, under pain of hellfire. Sounds like a racket
Thinking themselves wise, they have become fools.
Kingdom of heaven exists only in our hearts (its not a tangible manmade kingdom, it cannot be.) until the return of Messiah Jesus!
Our hope is not in this world, the world is at enmity with Messiah Jesus -ENEMIES!
We are not to love this world or the things of this world, our hope is in a heavenly Jerusalem ... Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world! (John ch18 vs 36) New Yahrusalem comes down out of the heavens
This world eventually passes away!
This modern world is ruled by Antimessiah/Antichrist.
NO MAN MADE THEOCRACY!
We are ignoring NDEs and the countless testimony of the soul leaving the body at death and engaging in the particular judgment and their reluctance to returning to the physical realm
Was not earth called paradise where Adam and Eve were? And Jesus never went to Paradise as he was the grave for part's of three days before ascending?
Or, He was in the grave for a full 3 day cycle, and the Church interpreted dates of the designated and recorded Jewish Feast Days (starting at sunset and ending at Sunrise) are distorted by changed Roman calendars, and the historic level of influence the Roman Church. The latter is more in keeping with God's perfect plan and fulfillment of such small matters, as His Feast Days, His fullfillments of His Prophecies, rather than twisting God's use of Hebrew people, Hebrew language, to record and share His plans, are more reasonably reliable.
Wait a minute so the question is How Wright understands the Rapture. Okay but he never talked about this: We will be caught up with HIm the Lord Jesus to meet him in the Aire. What happenned. and I hope there isn't going to be a mention of Metaphors, an airy explanation to explain away the Obvious Very Literal Understanding. Explain anyone.
A new earth? If Jesus returns to restore the earth and give us eternal life. won't the earth be people with the "saved" since time began and very crowded?
But the elements will melt
See the verses prior to Daniel 7:13 and those after 14...this is a 2nd coming passage and it happened in the 1st Century.
Ephesians 2:6. We are made alive together with Christ, raised with him from death, and have been seated together with him in heavenly places.
2 Corinthians 5:8 speaks of a preference to be absent from the body but present with the Lord. From these verses we know that that we already have a heavenly presence in Christ which will continue when we depart from these mortal bodies. So, there is no going to heaven because we are already there in Christ, but when we die we leave this body and continue living with Christ. And Christ will dwell together with His people forever in the new heaven and new earth (Revelation 2:1-2). The new Jerusalem is described as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. A city is a dwelling place for people and the people are the temple. The language is picturesque and metaphorical, but the people and the Lord are truly the focus. They will be together and everything will be new forever.
Paradise is not a temporary place. See Rev 2:7. Wright does not understand the Hebraic idiom used by Jesus in Luke 23:43. Jesus was not saying the thief would be with Jesus in Paradise on that very same day.
Religions use traditions to try to explain things. Scientific research seeks to investigate things. Explanation is not a primary issue in scientific thinking, and many people are not necessarily able to understand scientific explanations. In science, observations are not interpreted as matching wishes. Rather, religions explain everything and therefore a person does not have to bother to think about things in more detail, when they only become more complicated and unbelievable by thinking critically, as the number of religions and beliefs shows.
What we mean by that varies person to person. Mostly it’s meaningless drivel.
But is appears I should’ve had someone read scripture to me with incredible background music, at least according to the ad the proceed of this. Then I could impress people with my incredible biblical knowledge.
We also need to be assured that we will be allowed to die peacefully.
Tell that to Jesus, or almost all of the apostles, or the Christians who were thrown to the wild beasts or used as torches in Rome in the first couple of centuries. Phil 1:29--"For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also SUFFER for his sake,"
Heaven - YES, Resurrection - YES, Rapture - NO. We were all meant to live in Heaven after our time in the physical world. Besides, who wants to live in the physical world forever when the spirit world is far more beautiful and wonderful AND where God dwells.?
Please read Rev 21 - our end is on the new earth.......God will come and dwell with us on earth here.....the Bible says it clearly
@@wordywoodtv4883 So, no reason for spirit world, where God dwells?
@ 4:37 our faith has nothing to do with Baptism! we are saved by the blood of the lamb and NOTHING else.
The Death and Resurrection is the Grace that is received from belief in Christ alone. Other wise the thief on the cross would not enter as he hadn't been baptized. Baptism would steal the Glory Given to Christ for the punishment put on him for our sins. We do not need to be a "believing and baptized member of the body of Christ".
By far, the most historically probable explanation for the empty tomb is that the Romans removed the body to fake the resurrection. Pilate, alone, had the ability to do it plus he was greatly motivated to do it. He wanted the extremely pro-Roman teachings of Jesus to continue, plus he wanted to exact revenge on the religious leaders for forcing him to murder an innocent man. Ability + Motivation = Historical Probability. The same is true in a murder case. Therefore, the Romans probably did it.
For Christiansall good things happen ‘in Jesus’.
What the hell they mean by that, only they know.
(And Why does god need to rescue the world that he himself has created?)
Because we've fucked it up
The point is we are going to be where Jesus is and where is Jesus right now? What was he talking about when he said you will be with me? Clearly it’s going to heaven maybe that’s not permanent maybe there is a return to worry use of both earth and heaven, but to be in heaven with Christ, you must have some part of you that is not a physical human body. You also have Lazarus and the rich man even if it’s a pure, Jesus making the point that there is life after death outside of your body you can experience and know where you are. It’s a different location, etc. etc..
I think the church have a little bit off, but it’s clear to me, and I was raised Jehovah’s Witness, which believes none of that, that the Bible does teach some form of afterlife in heaven, even in the Old Testament. Sheol what is the destination of all of the dead good and bad and they were aware of it when they were there.
NTR is a really intelligent man and I like a lot of what he says but he’s wrong on this
Yes , I'm aware of this one day in the lord could be a thousand years for us humans ! However , this gospel [ the good news ) bible shows in the sayings of this Jesus was that he was going to return in the generation living THEN not NOW and that many living then would not die and still be alive to see the coming of Jesus with the angels in the clouds ! Revelation , chapter 22 simply affirms his previous promises as to his coming " SOON " ! And 1900+ years later the faithful are still waiting in vain for this event to happen !
Of course John 3:13 No one has gone to heaven except the one who came from heaven.
No more silence , look at the examples of scripture.
When Stephen was stoned , he opened his eyes and saw Jesus waiting to receive him into glory!
The thief on the cross was told “today you will be with me in paradise”!
Paul said “absent from the body is present with the Lord” he was ready to lay aside his tent or his fleshly body that returns to dust as his spirit goes straight to God as Ecclesiastes promises.
Judgement day for the individual happens when we die, although certain behaviors will bring judgement in this life.
It was the Sadducees and the pagan who couldn’t believe in what they couldn’t see , beware of the leaven of the Pharisee and the SADDUCEES (no spirit or afterlife)!
😅
If you're still confused by this endless allegorical hermeneutic mixed-metaphor word salad, read the below in the first chapter of Acts.
"And THEY also said"
(truthful words of unfallen, ANGELS of God)...
Acts 1:11
"and they also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky?
This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”"
Sorry I’m confused here. This verse talks about Jesus coming again. This points to heaven coming back to earth more than believers leaving. So what is problematic about NT Wright is saying
@@pantygwydrbaptistchurch5206 Yes, only somewhat. This verse is about one aspect of the παρουσία; a broader term. Good not to confuse the aspects and several descriptive contrasts between the final παρουσία... and the αρπαγεσόμεθα in I Thess. 4, and described in I Cor. 15. John 14, etc. 👍🙏
Efes 2 rise from the dead those that are dead rose from the dead spiritual in Chrirt
It always astonishes me as to how seemingly intelligent and scholarly people like this can continue to assert these bronze / iron age myths , fables and shaman invented fiction stories ! And that it's considered to be real and authentic ! That anyone should take any of this Nonsense seriously is Incredible !! After all , did not this jesus promise in revelation chapter 22 , that he would be returning " SOON " ( quickly ) with he father yahwehs celestial kingdom , and repeated his promise THREE TIMES ! And that was 1900 + years ago ! This SOON is taking a
LooooooooonG time for this gospel , good news to happen !
I'm not even sure do I fully believe, but you're going to need to do much, much better with your arguments if you're going to try and successfully put your "I'm cleverer than you" shtick across on videos like these. Your main takedown here is that Jesus said he'd be returning soon, but hasn't returned soon enough for your liking yet. This is wafer thin. God's concept of time would invariably be radically different to ours. It says in Peter "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." Peace.
Well that is the claim in that old book which at best, only says a thing.
WHY, think it's anything different?
Excellent question! I suggest you challenge to innumerable verifications, which grow and multiply in quality and quantity daily. Try using a note taking system, record all your questions, evaluate the Scripture in question, verify the context, the speaker, and note the questions or challenges you have.
There are basic rules of scientific method you can use, and which have been used to evaluate all 66 books comprising the whole Bible.
If you are a skeptic, you need to understand your own starting assumptions too. They should become more clear as you do work out your evaluation. But, the basic rule applies, if you are making a claim of fact, you must base it on known evidence and facts. You apparently have no reasons to assume or claim that the Bible is not to be believed. It clearly states itself to be honest reporting, and subject to rules and ethics of honesty, in fact identifying God with all the highest virtues.
Though not direct evidence of Bible credibility, what do you think about people smarter than you and me who have identifified the Bible as credible, reliable, and accurate in its claims and reports? What of those who are in the leading edge of all the sciences who support the Bible claims, like Dr. Francis Collins who led the Human Genome project? And what of the intelligent scholars who lived as atheists, and then became Christians believing the claims of the Bible. - LIke Antony Flew or David Berlinski? There are some documented on this TH-cam channel, or in this algorithm propagated video stream.
Like all subjects we start out as ignorant, even if we can read the language that records the information we study. Try planning an organized web search of universities which include theology studies; research the central term of importance in the Bible scripture "faith". It is NOT exclusive of evidence or reason. The Bible instructs people to investigate, to consider seriously, the issues taught in scripture and taught by people claiming to represent the Bible. Use Concordances, online and in good editions of print bibles. It organizes an index of all references to any subject you may be interested in.
The rapture was invented in the 1800's 😅😅😅😮😮😮
You're thinking it wasn't?
@@waynemccuen8213 no... it was
Negative- says Enoch, Elijah, Paul, Phillip, John and obviously The Lord Jesus. Tad before 1800. Reread
@@scoramg1 none were raptured...
@scoramg1
In the Bible, 2 Kings 2:11 says, "And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven"
Nothing like the "rapture" taught today... bad try
When Lord Jesus died he ceased to exist death is cessation of life he didn't go anywhere after death His life went to God not Jesus but His life, actually he died His body was in the tomb his life went to His father but after 3 days life came from father and entered the dead body of Jesus and he rose again from the dead and grave, death or cessation of life wages of sin is death our death punishment Lord Jesus took and ceseesed to exist for 3 days then when He received life from Father He lived again
If you mistake the sign post for the reality it becomes an idol
Nice try Winchester.
In Heaven there is a beautiful garden.
The angels tend all the plants and the tulips last forever.
Everybody will have a sunbed next to a private swimming pool.
Resurrection? Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence.
You're absolutely right; and there can be no more extraordinary eye-witness evidence than the willingness to die or suffer persecution for what you've seen. And what you yourself have seen is epistemologically different from what someone else told you, so other religions are not in the same category..
I could never understand why people would base their lives on fantasy books like the bible, torah, quran or any of the other approximately 3,000 deities recorded in human history! A mental weakness...or the fear of death?
You can spiritualize the truth away, but Jesus warned everyone to repent from sin, to watch and pray always to be accounted worthy to ESCAPE all the things that are coming to pass and stand before him (Luke 21). What chance does anyone have who doesn't even believe that Jesus promised to go create a place for us in heaven then come receive us there (John 14), let alone prepare as he warned?
The rapture, a 19th century doctrinal invention.
Sorry bud, you are mistaken. Research Chiliasm and Messianic Belief in first century. Some 19th century preachers made error of predicting specific dates/times for fulfillment of foretold Rapture. The errors included drastic, property selling and giving, causing harm after the preacher's dates came and passed. This led to numerous mocking press accounts of "Millerites," and the fame they generated.
Your fallacy is undifferentiated or improperly specified claims of fact. Many ideologs from Reformed Churches make similar mistakes and false claims. It must have been bound to happen! ;-)
Research Dispensational theology. The Covenants of God (over 5 of them, Adamic, Noahic, Abrahamic, Mosaic, Davidic). Study reliable Messianic Christian interpretation of Scripture - as Jesus is Jewish.
Why do my comments get deleted? Can't you tolerate an intelligent response?
It seems to me That N T Wright Has some sort of "Gnosis" or, at least esoteric Views concerning Heaven & The Rapture in particular! What Was the real Meaning behind That word-salad pontification!?? HUH!??
I agree. I think the amazing, undeniably attention getting multiple natural signs and wonders in the skies of the world and on the planet, may be prompting his little anti-Rapture spiel. He likely rationalizes it as:
"Don't worry people! These clear signs so notable by Believers and others are not to motivate you to any immediate panic.
(unspoken: Even though there is war within the territory of the prophesied return of Israel to her land, and these are undeniable signs and wonders, and also happening within days or hours of Biblical Jewish Feast Days. Just take our "Orhodox" amillennial view of eschatology - it alleviates us all from needing to learn any more about God or His specified, extremely detailed culmination of HIs plans for resolving all prior prior prophecies and plans from Scripture. I must remember not to openly insult Dispensationalists. Oh, damn! I already did that.)"
Gnostics don't accept the material world - NT Wright absolutely does. You don't know what NT Wright is saying.
Cool, cool. Now any evidence that any of that is real?
Plenty. Try reading the 66 books before attempting to disparage its credibility without any knowledge, evidence, or simple social respect.
Look up Evidential Theology, science supporting Scripture.
Look up comparative archaeological evidence supporting internal claims of authenticity of ANY ancient era books. There are more documentary supports for validity and credibility of content of Scripture than for all other ancient documents.
Sorry you need to do homework before you have any right to assume a valid, evidence supported opinion.
@@gregrice1354 - you say that, but there's not. There is no evidence supporting any of the supernatural claims of the bible. Believe it on faith if you want but those claims require actual evidence if you want to present them as factual events.
Jesus loves you unconditionally. But you'd better read the fine print or you're going to hell.
Making assertions in a posh accent does not make them more likely to be true. NTW does a pretty good job of explaining what is said in the Bible but none of it is even remotely sensible.
It seems to me you lack the intellectual insight to grasp what he's saying, and therefore claim he is wrong.
@@grantbartley483 Really? Is my first statement incorrect? Does NTW do a pretty good job of explaining what's in the Bible? Whether you think it's sensible or not depends on your willingness to believe unfalsifiable claims about extra-terrestrial alien beings with superpowers.
@@urasam2 God is not ET, The fact you would say that does not help your case
@@grantbartley483I didn’t say God was ET. I said God, as imagined by Christians in the 21st century, is said to be an immensely powerful being (superpowers) not of this planet (extra-terrestrial alien). You can’t argue with that.
@@urasam2 I can. An ET implies some sort of being in the universe, which God is not. And when he was incarnated, he was human, not an ET.