I see your point as I see all other post tribber's points. The problem is that you and they miss the verses that show that the day when Jesus comes back, ALL HIS SAINTS are with Him. They surely cannot be on earth waiting for Him if they are WITH HIM when he returns .
Yes finally you have now got what i have been trying to help you understand. The Gospel is good news and we are not appointed to wrath. We absolutely will not see Gods wrath. Glad you decided to finally come around. God bless
Part 2 I used to believe the seals was Gods wrath. But that can't be because the only ones hurting at the 5th seal are the saints. They have been some beheaded and are now standing before the throne crying with a loud voice to God asking how much longer until he avenges their death on the ones that killed them. So if judgement or wrath had started they would not be able to ask this. They are the only ones suffering at this time. 6th seal then we which are alive and remain.
Also, take a look at the events of 6th seal in Rev 6:12-17. 1. A great earthquake - the sun became black and the moon became as blood. 2.The stars of heaven fall to the earth. 3. The heaven departed as a scroll and every mountain and island were moved out of their place. Then the kings and every man hide in the dens and caves wanting the mountains and the rocks to fall on them and hide them from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of His wrath has come and who shall be able to stand ?
I have never heard of you before John, but you are bang on on this interpretation of Matthew 24. There is another prophecy of this given in Jeremiah 30, where it is clear that this prophecy is directed at the nation of Israel and not the church. The language is even clearer in the sense that it refers to the time of "JACOB'S TROUBLE." The church is never referred to as being part of Jacob. Deuteronomy 32 is the first instance of the same prophecy. Jesus confirms all 3 in Matthew 24.
Okay. So there is 3 comings of the Lord Jesus then? According to what you say. I thought there is only a SECOND coming of Christ as stated in God's word. But you believe that there is a "secret" rapture before his 2rd coming then? I'm confused. Where is that that specifically stated in the Bible? Please enlighten me. Thanks so much!
+gourmetmn ..actually there are 2 comings of Jesus Christ to earth. The first was when He left Heaven to be born of Mary, the second is when He returns with the saints and sets foots on the Mount of Olives. The first coming was a humble servant, the second as King and Judge. The Rapture is not a coming of Himself to earth, He will only come so far(in the clouds?) to call believers UP to Him. Although the English word rapture does not appear in the Bible, the words "caught up" do which is where the word rapture comes from. First Thessalonians 4:13-18. In the Greek ..to catch up suddenly, very quickly, in the twinkling of an eye. Many Christian denominations do not teach this, because they were influenced by Augustine of Hippo 354-430 AD who tended to allegorize the prophetic portions of scripture. Many of them say that the idea of the Rapture started with John Nelson Darby in the 1700's, which is not correct. He merely refined the ideas and beliefs that were with the earliest Church fathers. The Bible states that understanding of the end times will not be understood till closer to the end. Here's a link you might like. christinprophecy.org/articles/the-origin-of-the-concept-of-a-pre-tribulation-rapture/
Okay. To take a direct excerpt of of the link you sent is says the following: In medieval times evidence of pretribulational thinking can be found in the recently discovered sermon attributed to Ephraem the Syrian.16 This sermon, which was written sometime between the 4th and 6th Centuries, encourages believers to prepare themselves for meeting the Lord because “all the saints and elect of God are gathered, PRIOR to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.” Scholars believe this text was derived from the writings of the original Ephraem who lived from 306 to 373 AD. He was one of the leading theologians of the early Byzantine Church.17 - Now, first off, this is someones private interpretation and is not found in the Bible. In fact the opposite is true. Let's look at Mark 13 beginning at verse (Jesus speaking) 24.But in those days, AFTER that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming IN THE CLOUDS with great power and glory. 27 And THEN shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. And finishes the chapter with Christ's warning. 37. What I say unto you I say unto ALL....WATCH! As of my opinion, would it be great if we were all caught up BEFORE the tribulation? Yes! But the Bible doesn't say that. Acts 14:22 even states: 22. Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. And many pre-tribbers confuse "tribulation" with God's wrath, yet they are two separate events. Yet every pre-tribber points directly to 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and says Aha! See! It's right there.
+gourmetmn ; NOTHING SECRET about this coming of the Lord Jesus in the clouds to rapture His church! Ezekiel 38:20-23, So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground. : 21. And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother. 22. And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. 23. Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD. Ezekiel 39 ;6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the Lord. 9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:This war here starts the 7 years of Jacob's trouble. If you believe in a post trib or mid trib rapture, then it appears that for the 1st time ever in the bible God did not tell the righteous HIS place of protection. The only place of protection God speaks of for the church is the blessed hope , the pre 7 years of Jacob's trouble, rapture. The Hebrews are told to flee to the mountains. And however does the church get inserted into the 70th week of Daniel 9-24 when the 1st 69 weeks were all for the Hebrews and Jerusalem?
gourmetmn the bible only talks about a second coming. There is one rapture it is after the tribulation and then God pours out his wrath. Bible supports a post trib pre wrath view. If you need scripture to prove this i can very easily. Just reply and ask.
the elect can also mean those who have given their hearts to Christ that survived the tribulation period. They would inherit the elect status afterall.
IN MATTHEW 24 , JESUS DID NOT, WOULD NOT AND COULD NOT DISCUSS OR MAKE ANY REFERENCE TO THE RAPTURE.!! WHY? BECAUSE THE MYSTERY OF THE RAPTURE HAD NOT BEEN REVEALED YET.!!
I was not speaking of the 70 weeks but of the 70th week. One week, a 7year period of which the 2nd 1/2 is called Great Tribulation (Mat.24:21,22). It's a time of great trouble (Dan.12:1). The 1st 1/2 is "...the Tribulation of those days..." (Mat.24:29). In the midst of that 7yr period is the Abomination of Desolation (Mat.24:15-18). That's the Appointed Time & The End (Dan.11:27-31). At that time the Resurrection of the just occurs according to Dan.12:1-3 & Jesus in LK.17:24-36 & Mat.24:15-28.
Mike65809 Right, finally one who get it! Many do not see nor understand the differance between tribulations meant for Israel only and the great wrath of God on the same day of the 2nd coming preceded by rapture! Rapture of the elect only on the Last day, after Israel's tribulations! blessed
Yes, there is also the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls that I believe affect the whole earth to one degree or another. Of course, God can keep His people safe during this time, fulfilling promises like those in Psalm 91. But we will be persecuted. God bless.
Gday Mike: here my understandings: facebook.com/notes/terra-nova-christiana/the-difference-between-tribulations-and-great-wrath-of-god-regarding-rapture/1577385438939875/ Blessings
+Mike65809 - so we have a dilemma with God's word. One can lean toward we will ALL be raised up on the last as the correct interpretation. But I ask can it mean THOSE that are alive when Jesus returns to the earth, at the end of the tribulation, will be raised up. Watch the analogy of 'a Jewish wedding and the pre-tribulation rapture' by the same author. He makes a compelling case for a rapture at the start of the tribulation. Too many details to go into here..but the video. He does a great job explaining things.
BTW, is not the current Pope, the 8th King of Vatican State? Pope Francis I. He is the 8th King since the Vatican became it own small state/monarchy in 1929? Will he go into perdition? PeaceB2Ya
In Matthew 24 verse 29-31 says Jesus is coming immediately after Tribulation (not great Tribulation) on the Clouds (not on white horse of rev 19) along with his Angels (not saints) to Gather his elect. These clearly points out HE is coming for his BRIDE. Please ask GOD for the Spirit of Wisdom and Revelation. God bless you all.
A great multitude of blood washed saints from the nations (Rev. 7:9-17) who get the victory over the Beast and his mark (Rev. 15:2) will be caught up out of the great tribulation at the coming of the Son of Man and His angels. (Mark 13:26-27, Mat. 24:29-31)
I think all pretrib believers need to read Ephesians 6 and ask yourselves, why would GOD tell us to arm ourselves with the whole armour of the gospel for that evil day, if we are not going to be be here? PeaceB2All
Daniel tells us that the Son of Man will approach the Ancient is Days in the Matthew quotation of Daniel. The Greek word for angel simply means messenger. So after the ascension Christ will send out His messengers or witnesses to gather the elect. That is the entire point of the book of Acts.
CuffAnimationStudios Read it again. It is not the Elect. It is His Elect. And read Daniel 9 27 and Daniel 7 25 and Rev 13 5. That day is at the end of those prophecies.
The first four trumpets are now being sounded and destroying the third part of creation as the Lord is reconsecrating the third part of the whole land. Zechariah 13:8-9 (or, 14:8-9?)
The Second Coming of Christ consists of the coming of the Son of Man (Mat. 24:30-31, Rev 7:9-14), the physical return of the Messiah (Rev 10:1-7), the appearing of the Word of God (Rev 19:11-21), and the descent of the Lamb of God (Rev 21:9-10).
Do you not think that GOD's Word can have a dual meaning? I think the 1260 year prophecy you mentioned is or might be right. Because in Rev 12:6 The woman goes into wilderness after the brought the child forth & He was caught up to heaven. Yet, another time period of, a time, and times & half a time, after the dragon is cast out of heaven in the end days the woman is helped. Rev 12:13-14. Why would it be listed twice, after the child born & after the time the devil is cast from heaven? PeaceB2Ya
quoting ur words:matthew 24:29 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days The Greek word translated in English as “after” is meta. We find meta translated as “after” 88 times in the authorized King James Version, but translated as “with” 345 times and “among” five times. meta also means beyond such as metaphysics which means beyond physics so it can also read IMMEDIATELY WITH/BEYOND Jesus do not come AFTER the tribulation but WITH/BEYOND tribulation
The gospel is good news. Christ saves to the utter most. He didn't die on the cross so those who trust in Him would have to also take the wrath of God. He took the wrath in place of those who are His. Those who are born again will not see the wrath of God because it abides on the children of disobedience.
Hey pre tribbers, have you ever wondered how Matthew 24 says all the tribes will mourn when they see him in the clouds. Yet the 12 tribes are saved and sealed BEFORE the 2nd coming? I swear i just don't see why the tribes mourn if they were already are sealed. Unless Matthew 24 is the rapture. Compare it with the 6th seal of Revelation. Also why is the seals 1-6 in chapter 6 but yet the 7th seal is in chapter 8. In between seal 6 &7 is the 144,000 and great tribulation saints.
this is after sixth vial/bowl of GOD's wrath poured out n Rev 16:12. Then Rev 16:16 Armageddon & Rev 16:17 7th vial & a great voice from heaven saying "IT IS DONE". Not just these verses, but thru-out NT speaks of Christ return at the end or last day, such as John 6:39, 40, 44 & 54 saying we will be raised at the last day & the dead precede the living. Also Rev 20:4&5 speak of the 1st resurrection after the GTrib. Not enuff room here, hope you at least see my point. I love U n Christ. PeaceB2Ya
from year AD 538 - 1798 church has gone under severe persecutiion for 1260 years from the inquisition by catholic church, this is the period of wilderness for the woman. when Napoleon sent general Berthier to fight catholic church n arrested pope until died in jail in 1798, it gave serious wound to the beast but in 1929 the beast reestablished in vatican.n their 8th king shall go into perdition
The evil day in this context is not the day of the Anti Christ. It is any day that you are under spiritual warfare. That day can be today, tomorrow, last week, next week.
Brother John , Jesus said he was sent only unto the lost sheep of Isreal , he also said his flock were men. The 144,000 are Male virgins who have spoken no guile ,they are the firstfruits unto GOD,they receive the Mark of GOD. Are these not in fact the Elect ? I'm anxious for your reply .
loka widu wrong of course. Even if a man is righteous and without sin, but does not have the Light in him and does not believe, he can not enter the Kingdom. The main thing is to believe with all yr heart, mind and soul, then automatecally the works, (obidiance) follows
that is why the post tribulation believers doesn't understand. different prophesies were given to the jews and to the gentiles. seek and you will find.
Jesus' Coming in Mat.24 & His Return in Rev.19 are not one and the same. It is Mid Trib. 2nd Coming & Resurrection of the just according to Jesus in Lk.17:24-36, Rev.6:12-17, Lk.21:25-28, Dan.12:1-3 & 1 Thess. 5:1-3.
Hey post tribbers, have you ever wondered why God had Lot and his family removed from Sodom BEFORE His wrath destroyed the city and didn't simply leave them there and protect them from the destruction ?
I guess we disagree, for verse 11 says whole armour to stand against the devil, as vrs 13 says whole armour and is specific with "the evil day" and not just an evil day or any evil day. Besides, when is the devil going to be here? For vrs 12 shows we are not speaking of wicked fleshly men but satanic powers & that points to the devil & his minions. Yet I respect your view & not saying mine is right. With brotherly love for you. PeaceB2Ya
I believe that the bride and the Jewish believers are raptured first before tribulation .the second rapture is at the time of the end are tribulation saints.
A new perspective on the Olivet Discourse, based on Matt. 24 and Josephus. And Jesus said, “Not one stone will be left upon another.” And the disciples asked “when will that happen?” And Jesus said, "I’m not going to tell you the day or the hour, but I will say, some of you will still be alive when it happens. I am going to leave you and while I am gone I want you to take my prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem and I want you to go to the ends of the earth and tell every single Jew you can find, that this is going to happen and when it does tell them it will be the sign that I am ruling in heaven and the old covenant is over and the new covenant has come to pass. Tell them that now my kingdom is no longer a physical kingdom on earth but a spiritual kingdom that I shall rule in their hearts and in their minds. Tell them that when the Temple is destroyed it will be the sign to prove to the world that I was God because only God can predict the future. I am going to return in the glory and power of the Father, in judgment exactly as He always came and I’m going to use the iron kingdom, prophesied by Daniel to bring about the desolation of Jerusalem. And since you my disciples have been entrusted with this my most important message to the entire world it is extremely important that you yourselves don’t get caught in the middle of this horror, so if you’re still in Judea when it begins your final warning will be when you hear the news that a foreign army has come and is marching toward Jerusalem, don’t take shelter inside the city, all who do shall die, when you hear the armies are approaching flee to the mountains, don’t get caught inside, those people shall experience hell on earth for 7 long years. They will first kill each other in a demonic blood fest civil war for 3 and 1\2 years and then those left will starve to death in the Roman siege and some of them will eat their own children, just as I prophesied through Moses 1300 hundred years ago. These will be the days of vengeance that everything my prophets have foretold shall come to pass. I shall pour out my wrath upon this people and their children because they shouted out at my trial, “His blood be upon us and our children.” I shall pour out my wrath upon this people who killed my prophets and my apostles and murdered me. Now go and preach this message to all nations and teach them to obey everything I have taught you and tell them about Jerusalem’s’ coming desolation and tell them I am about to usher in a new heaven and a new earth in which I and my Father will personally come and indwell every believer. Go now and tell, don’t let anything stop you from this task. I will return in judgment. I will come back and do these things. I will come back and destroy the Temple. Go now and remember I shall be with you in my Spirit always. If you fail and stop with this duty I will be ashamed of you when I return and you will lose all that you had, but if you are faithful and succeed and don‘t quit until I return you shall be among my most honored servants.
For the wrath of GOD is for the wicked & unbelieving. 1 Thes 5 says Jesus will come as a thief in the night for the children of darkness & disobedient & they shall not escape. Yet we are children of the day, light, that that day should not overtake us as a thief. This here means we will be here at the time Jesus comes for wicked children of disobedience. Also Rev 16:15 says Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth & keep his garments, lest he walk naked & they see his shame. cont..
Anyone ever wonder why God didn't simply leave Lot and his family in the city of Sodom while His wrath destroyed the city ? After all, God could have protected them from the destruction. This is the same foolishness you get when you believe that God will leave His bride on the earth while His wrath destroys it.
Clearly, the timing of a pre, mid, or post tribulation resurrection (rapture) of the elect aren't taught in scripture. According to Jesus, His coming will come after the sun moon and stars go out (6th seal) (Mat. 24:29, Rev 6:12-14) sometime after the middle of the seven years (70th week of Daniel) (Dan. 9:27, Mat. 24:15) no man knows the exact day or hour (Mat. 24:36)
read 2 Thes 2:3 that day shall not come xcept there come a falling away first The phrase "falling away", in 2 Thess. 2:3, is the one Greek word apostasia", and its basic meaning is to "depart from" or "go away". The Greek word "Apostasia" is a compound of two Greek words: "Apo" = "to move away", "stasis" means standing, from its basic definition, "apostasia" means "to go away from, depart in other english word = rapture
Nope, the tribes mourn. The wrath does not come until AFTER the 7th seal. I would still love to believe in a pre trib rapture. I am sorry you can not see this. Just remember and not blame God when persecution may come.
This is for Ilkinond. Why is it that all atheists are always angry? Seems to be a common trait. If people wish to believe in God and a Religion, why do you care and why does it upset you so much. If they can gain peace through their beliefs, that's a good thing, whether or not it proves to be true. Actually, none of us know what awaits us after death. We simply have beliefs and some of us have faith, be it substantiated, or not, it provides us with an inner comfort. If you gain pleasure in dem
matthew 24:29 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
An "A Bomb In Nation" that causes "Desolation" is a nuclear weapon of some kind, it's cloud "stands", can be seen from "far off". I don't see how any other "abomination" causes "desolation", seeing Nothing Stops God's Presence from being anywhere "yay I Am There". SO how can a corrupt animal sacrifice or normal abomination, in The Holy Place cause Him not to be there. Sin or abominations don't affect God.
My poor wife. She was okay through the four creatures, seals, and horses..(smile).., got stuck on the 144,000, and gave up after I told her we had trumpets, vials, and bowls to go. At this point in time I would advise sticking to what Jesus had to say on any subject, and taking a huge grain of salt with Paul's ideas.. (too much time in the third heaven?).
By you saying that Jesus claimed His flock were men, you just excluded every female ever created from being included in the bride of Christ... Not too bright... God made it very clear throughout the old testament scriptures that the elect are His people Israel.
Do you see in Rev 12:12 & following that the 1st WOE is the devil cast down to the earth with great wrath knowing he has but a short time, and then goes on to say a time, times and half a time. Just bcoz Christ opens the seals does'nt mean all the wrath is from GOD. Mat 24 even says that after the abomination of desolation there will be great tribulation as never before & this is b4 Jesus return. PeaceB2Ya
In the Hebrew Tradition, the first Trumpet is blown at Pentecost. This is when Yewah gave the betrothal to the Jewish nation. The 10 commandments was the Katubah(Marriage Contract) The left Horn of the Rams Horn was blown. "And I heard a voice thundering as a Trumpet and it got Louder and louder till the people gathered around the mount. The Last Trump is Blown on the Rosh Ha Shannah, Feast of Trumpets. The right Horn or Last Trumpet. 100 trumpet blasts on Rosh Ha SHanna and the 100th blast is known as the last Trump. When the left or first Trumpet and the Last or right Trumpet are blown together at YOM KIPPER the Day of Atonement / Judgement. This is known as the "GREAT TRUMP" or Trumpet...all of these Trumpets are blown with the RAMS HORN. Abraham sacrificed the Ram in the bush. The Ram is the Lamb of God and the Bush represents the SIN of the world. This was a preview of what was yet to be played out by Yeshuah. God resurrected the RAM and used the horns for the first 2 Shofars. (Rams Horns)....The Last Trump Paul is referring to has nothing to do with the trumpets in Revelation, these are Angel's trumpet and sounded by Angels. Not God...The Great Trump is when the first and the last are blown together and is known as YOM HADDIN the Great Trump "I am the first and the Last" ...Revelation chapter 6 the sealed scroll is handed to the Messiah. Only he is worthy to unroll and see the seven seals that START the Tribulation. Only the King in Israel is worthy to receive the title deed to the land and the Scroll of the deed. Before the seals are opened the Messiah has to be recognized as the King. You can't be a KING in Israel until you are Married. So the Messiah Yeshuah has to take his Bride BEFORE he can open the scrolls.....If you do not know Jewish Tradition do not try to guess what the prophecies mean.....You will not be right!!!!!! Shalom Chuck Lewis onewayup78@gmail.com
I have listened to this guy to long....as in the days of Noah is a reference to many thing. The presents of the Nephelim for one. However, In the days of Noah the people who did not get on the ark were living their lives , business as usual. once the Tribulation starts it will not be business as usual and a person during the Trib if they know their Bible will be able to calculate every day of the seven years. They will know the time period of 42 months ...a time 2 times and 1/2 a time. 1260 days. this is the first 3.5 years how much more precis do you want to get...No thief in the night here...you will know every day.. No surprise here you will be able to count down the next 7 years...POST TRIB MAKES NO SENSE... I Jewish man does not take his Bride down town and beat her up first before the Wedding...The Groom goes to get the Bride and with his 2 witnesses they carry her away to the Marriage Chamber.... If you do not know about a Jewish Wedding what in the world are doing teaching the End Times....
The pre trib rapture is the truth that I have " been Around " . Don't worry about me coming to the truth. You are obviously under the impression that the tribulation is not the wrath of God. I recommend that you do a bit more study in the chapters of 6-through 18 in the book of revelation.
First off man i am NOT a post tribber. I was a pretribber my whole life. I probably know more than you about the pre trib belief. What you are to blind to see is that the seals are not Gods wrath. You are the one that believes the persecution would be Gods wrath. I am the one that sees that there is a difference. Which seal would be Gods wrath? The men hide at the 6th seal saying that his wrath has now come. Post trib makes even less sense than pre trib.
I believe those that are living during the generation that shall not pass until all things are fulfilled will be here during the great tribulation of satan's wrath=Rev 12:12. Jesus told Smryna, a church He approved of, that some of them would be cast into prison by the devil, yet be faithful unto death & you will receive a crown of Life. Not they would be raptured & then more ppl join the church of Smryna for GTrib. Yet when GOD's wrath is poured out, saints will be protected. continued..
I just can't get over what lengths of scripture twisting pretribbers will go to deny the Word of GOD & Jesus Christ, what foolishness it is to say the elect in Mat 24 is Jews & not what it really means as the chosen=elect of Jesus Christ, all those in the body of Christ, His Church, ekklesia/assembly, whether jew or gentile. How can the end of the world just come for jews? It can't. Jesus is speaking of those who believe & follow Him. Thats His Elect/Chosen. Please open eyes & ears. PeaceB2All
first great tribulation, then rapture, then wrath, the 6th seal is the wrath, see how matthew 23:29 and the 6th seal rev 6:12-17 it s the same event. please read matthew 24 and mark 13
Erik Moreno The Elect cannot be the saints. What happens to the saints in Matthew 24 22? They are not raptured. Matthew 24 23-24 clearly shows the Elect still on Earth.
Erik Moreno Nobody is raptured in verses 29-31. One is taken and one is gathered on Earth. Luke 17 22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. 23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. 24 *For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.* 25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. 26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 *Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.* 36 *Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.* 37 *And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.* THE WICKED ARE TAKEN.
Neil Wani verse 31 of Matthew 24 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. This is the second coming of Christ our blessed hope and the same day as the first resurrection in which the dead in Christ rise first then those who are alive and remain, which would be the elect of Christ,those who have endured to the end being gathered together with the sound of a trumpet. The pretrib rapture is a lie brother don’t believe Hollywood believe the Bible.
Erik Moreno In Luke 17, who were taken? The ones moved first were taken. It is clear the ones taken are not in their bodies anymore. The vultures are circling their dead bodies. What day of Daniels 70th week is the resurrection you speak of? The 2nd coming is on the last day of Daniels 70th week.
Jesus knew that videos like this would be made, so he inspired Mark 13 where He tells the exact same story and at the end of Mark 13 He says "And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch." Matthew 24 and Mark 13 apply to everyone who is a believer. Also Unsaved, non-believing people aren't God's chosen people. Believers are. Read Romans 11 about who the elect are. Also we are all one in the body of Christ. There is no Jew nor Gentile.
Arthur Lewis Yes One Body who is in Christ. Remember the 144,000 saves 12k from every tribe in Revelations? those are the Jews who are going to be saced in the Tribulation. Read Romans 2.
Read Revelation 7 and the parallel verses in Rev 14 so you'll know who the 144,000 are. These 144,000 are people who have already died while the 12 tribes existed. The 12 tribes are long gone now so you won't see anyone coming out of them today nor at the rapture (after the tribulation and before God's wrath.)
The Lamb of God, who is Jesus Christ, God Almighty Himself opens each of the seals and the events that take place show that God gives the power to these demons to bring their destruction. 1st seal : a demonic being given power to conquer. 2nd seal : Major war taking place on earth. 3rd seal : Starvation and famine 4th seal : Mass deaths caused by the demon on the pale horse. The events taking place here are caused by demons, but they are directed by God Himself , proving this is God's wrath
imho a time = a year, so a time and times n half a time = 3.5 years which refer to the 2nd half of tribulation in end times. i mean a/c shall rule for 7 years, but in the 1st 3.5 years he shall bring the world to the utmost glory the world never knows be4, that all mankind shall b deceived by satan, then at the 2nd 3.5 years he shall pursue the remaining of the woman (Israelites) n Israelites will believe in their 2 Witnesses n shall b beheaded as the end time saints.
I was a pre tribber my whole life until this year. I know the belief as much as anyone. I am not a post tribber now either. That view point makes now sense. They believe the rapture is the 7th trumpet while also saying we will be taken out before his wrath comes. If anyone sees the 7th trumpet they have come to the end of his wrath. But i believe we get out at the 6th seal. The 7th seal is his wrath getting ready to start.
Satan couldn't do anything that God doesn't permit him to do. Even wrath coming from Satan is being used by God. What you seem to be trying to do is to show that Satan's wrath is greater or more destructive than God's wrath. This is bad theology as no one is greater in anything they do than God. Besides this, Rev 6:16-17 show the wrath that has come is the wrath of the Lamb, who is Jesus Christ, God Almighty.
i think Real followers of Christ should teach more of Tribulations and bad things to come but be strong and how to keep Jesus in their heart when hard times come more then celebrating preaching...i mean this is good better then prosperity which is false any one know GOD not going to bless you with riches and allow you to have them when Jesus him self was poor and told a rich man to give all his wealth away if he wanted to go to heaven. celebrating helps keeps you in the spirit but it gives a false sense of security like every thing is going to be alright that no harm is coming your way. This is very false and for those who fall under this thinking i encourage you read all Matthew, John and Revelations. For it speaks many of us will have to die in the name of Jesus we will be hated and we will be hunted when the one world government becomes unity. we will have a choice to serve satan and take his mark or we wont buy or sell and would have to hide to stay alive much much trouble is to come before Jesus returns... and finally Jesus warns how many will come in his name sake but will False (aka all the Prosperity Preachers) and you can tell by the fruit they give (aka the words they say and action they show) if its not in the bible then its false...please READ YOUR BIBLE DONT LET SOMEONE ELSE TAKE FEW SCRIPTURES OUT AND MAKE THEIR OWN SAYING, KNOW WHEN SOMETHING IS BIBLICAL AND WHEN SOMETHING IS NOT...AND PRAY NEVER TAKE THAT MARK WHEN THAT DAY COMES BE READY YOURSELF IF YOU ARE SOME DAY CAPTURED AND FORCED TO CHOOSE JESUS OR SATAN A SOUJA MAY HOLD YOU DOWN AND IF YOU CHOOSE JESUS WILL SHOOT YOU IN THE HEAD... DONT BE AFRAID IF YOU ARE KILLED AND YOUR MIND IS ON JESUS YOU WILL NOT REMEMBER THE PAIN BUT WILL WAKE UP SEEING THE ONES THAT DID HARM YOU IN THE PIT OF GOD'S FURY AND WILL NEVER MORE MATTER TO YOU
The question he tries to answer is, In Matthew 24, is Jesus referring to the Rapture or His Second Coming? But the correct answer from the Bible is... Neither! Both the rapture and the second coming will happen in the future while Matthew 24 is talking about events that occurred in Jesus' generation as he clearly puts it in Mat. 24:34. Those events were to occur as warning signs to the Christians of his day so they may escape to the mountains before God dropped the abomination of desolation like a bomb killing tens of thousands of Jews and turned their great temple into a pile of rubble. With the Christians surviving and spreading to the mountains, the Kingdom of God was given to the gentile nations and began to deliver the fruits that the "chosen nation" failed to deliver. That I believe, is the true message of Matthew 24.
"Immediately after the tribulation.." in Mat.24:29 does not mean after the Great Tribulation, but after the 1st 3 1/2 yrs of Daniel's 70th Week according to Jesus in Lk.17:24-36. In verses 30,31 He says He will be Revealed IN THAT DAY when the Jews flee to the mountains in haste. That day according to Him in Mat.24 is at the Abomination of Desolation in the midst of the Tribulation / Great Tribulation period. That's the Appointed Time & The End according to Dan.11:27-31, 12:1-3. Mid Trib.it is.
Both, Jesus appears in the clouds on His way to pour out His Wrath on the earth. When He appears in the clouds The dead in Christ shall rise and the believers who are alive will be caught up to meet Jesus in the clouds. Once we are safe Jesus and His army will continue down onto the earth to execute the Wrath of the Lamb. It all happens so fast it’s almost simultaneous.
Read Jesus's teaching in John 14 ... Believers will be snatched away AND RETURN TO THE FATHER's HOUSE WITH JESUS where Jesus is now preparing rooms for us!
Did you forget what Jesus told His disciples in John 14? He promised to come for us and RETURN TO THE FATHER'S HOUSE where there are many rooms. Later, we return with Jesus for the closing scene of the Great Tribulation wrath and the establishment of the Kingdom.Read John 14 the immediately read 1Thess 4:13-17
This reasoning leaves no time in heaven for the marriage supper, the judgment seat of Christ and the rewards given.The fact is when Christ returns (Rev19:11) The saints (believers) come back WITH Him..These are the ones in Rev19:7-8 dressed in fine linen, white and clean who are part of Christ army that return with Him to judge and make war.Following on white horses, they will only observe as Christ defeats the antichrist and the batlle at Armageddon, then establishes His Millennial Kingdom on earth.
The great tribulation is for Jerusalem and Judea. It is the time of Jacob's trouble. Yes bad things will happen throughout the rest of the world during the Tribulation but Jesus is describing the attack on Jerusalem by the armies of the Antichrist. One Jew will be taken away prisoner and the other will be left in Jerusalem to endure the great tribulation.
God will pour His wrath on earth with 7 trumpets n 7 vials, how can u wish to b here on earth without receiving His wrath, water shall turn into blood n u shall drink it unless u r raptured first.
Bible supports a post trib pre wrath view of the rapture. Matthew 24, 1thess4, Mark 13, and like 21 describes same event. 2thessalonians 2 reaffirms 1thessalonians 2. But you say no man knows the day or your ( but that day is immediately after the tribulation). End of revelation six describes the sun darkening the moon going red and the stars falling. That is same event as Matthew 24:29. Keep reading revelation and it describes God's wrath. God's wrath is after the catching away of the saints immediately after the tribulation. Study this out. Want to understand revelation cut it in half. Chapters 1-11 is chronological and chapters 12 til the end is chronological read them side by side chapter 12 starting with Mary carrying jesus, then it gets into the tribulation quick. Every time elect is used in the new testament it refers to the saints. It is so simple if you study this out. Study Matthew 24 Mark 13, luke 21, 1cor15, and1 these 4 am describe the same events. 2thess2 explains 1thess4 and puts it into context. End of rev 6 describes Matthew 24:29. God's wrath is after the trib after the taking away. Rev 1-11 is chronological. Rev 12through end of chapter is chronological started with birth of jesus. Elect in Matthew 24 is church as well as when elect is used in rest of new testament. Don't need word games. Just need to understand the bible in its simplicity. I'm no expert on this but I do understand this. Study it out.
Bryan Ekberg you cannot say study it and leave half the end time scriptures out. Why don't you incorporate Daniel 7 25 and Rev 13 5 in your list. There is no prewrath or post trib rapture.
CuffAnimationStudios Why don't you go on some sites where you talk about crystals and soul separation. People that believe in the bible will never listen to your nonsense.
I see your point as I see all other post tribber's points. The problem is that you and they miss the verses that show that the day when Jesus comes back, ALL HIS SAINTS are with Him. They surely cannot be on earth waiting for Him if they are WITH HIM when he returns .
Yes finally you have now got what i have been trying to help you understand. The Gospel is good news and we are not appointed to wrath. We absolutely will not see Gods wrath. Glad you decided to finally come around. God bless
Hello children of the one true living God, please give our heavenly Father glory, honour, praise, and worship.
Good points! Pre-trib stand above the rest. Thanks.
Part 2
I used to believe the seals was Gods wrath. But that can't be because the only ones hurting at the 5th seal are the saints. They have been some beheaded and are now standing before the throne crying with a loud voice to God asking how much longer until he avenges their death on the ones that killed them. So if judgement or wrath had started they would not be able to ask this. They are the only ones suffering at this time. 6th seal then we which are alive and remain.
Also, take a look at the events of 6th seal in Rev 6:12-17.
1. A great earthquake - the sun became black and the moon became as blood.
2.The stars of heaven fall to the earth.
3. The heaven departed as a scroll and every mountain and island were moved out of their place.
Then the kings and every man hide in the dens and caves wanting the mountains and the rocks to fall on them and hide them from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of His wrath has come and who shall be able to stand ?
Good explanation of Mathew 24. Thank you!
The rapture is pre-trib but only Matthew 24 4-31 is in Daniel's 70th week. Matthew 24 32-51 is the pre-trib rapture.
The resurrection and the rapture of the bride is in Matthew 24:37-51.
I have never heard of you before John, but you are bang on on this interpretation of Matthew 24. There is another prophecy of this given in Jeremiah 30, where it is clear that this prophecy is directed at the nation of Israel and not the church. The language is even clearer in the sense that it refers to the time of "JACOB'S TROUBLE." The church is never referred to as being part of Jacob. Deuteronomy 32 is the first instance of the same prophecy. Jesus confirms all 3 in Matthew 24.
Okay. So there is 3 comings of the Lord Jesus then? According to what you say. I thought there is only a SECOND coming of Christ as stated in God's word. But you believe that there is a "secret" rapture before his 2rd coming then? I'm confused. Where is that that specifically stated in the Bible? Please enlighten me. Thanks so much!
+gourmetmn ..actually there are 2 comings of Jesus Christ to earth. The first was when He left Heaven to be born of Mary, the second is when He returns with the saints and sets foots on the Mount of Olives. The first coming was a humble servant, the second as King and Judge. The Rapture is not a coming of Himself to earth, He will only come so far(in the clouds?) to call believers UP to Him. Although the English word rapture does not appear in the Bible, the words "caught up" do which is where the word rapture comes from. First Thessalonians 4:13-18. In the Greek ..to catch up suddenly, very quickly, in the twinkling of an eye. Many Christian denominations do not teach this, because they were influenced by Augustine of Hippo 354-430 AD who tended to allegorize the prophetic portions of scripture. Many of them say that the idea of the Rapture started with John Nelson Darby in the 1700's, which is not correct. He merely refined the ideas and beliefs that were with the earliest Church fathers. The Bible states that understanding of the end times will not be understood till closer to the end. Here's a link you might like. christinprophecy.org/articles/the-origin-of-the-concept-of-a-pre-tribulation-rapture/
Okay. To take a direct excerpt of of the link you sent is says the following:
In medieval times evidence of pretribulational thinking can be found in the recently discovered sermon attributed to Ephraem the Syrian.16 This sermon, which was written sometime between the 4th and 6th Centuries, encourages believers to prepare themselves for meeting the Lord because “all the saints and elect of God are gathered, PRIOR to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.” Scholars believe this text was derived from the writings of the original Ephraem who lived from 306 to 373 AD. He was one of the leading theologians of the early Byzantine Church.17 -
Now, first off, this is someones private interpretation and is not found in the Bible. In fact the opposite is true.
Let's look at Mark 13 beginning at verse
(Jesus speaking) 24.But in those days, AFTER that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming IN THE CLOUDS with great power and glory.
27 And THEN shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
And finishes the chapter with Christ's warning. 37. What I say unto you I say unto ALL....WATCH!
As of my opinion, would it be great if we were all caught up BEFORE the tribulation? Yes! But the Bible doesn't say that. Acts 14:22 even states: 22. Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. And many pre-tribbers confuse "tribulation" with God's wrath, yet they are two separate events. Yet every pre-tribber points directly to 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and says Aha! See! It's right there.
+gourmetmn ; NOTHING SECRET about this coming of the Lord Jesus in the clouds to rapture His church! Ezekiel 38:20-23, So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground. : 21. And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother. 22. And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. 23. Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD. Ezekiel 39 ;6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the Lord. 9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:This war here starts the 7 years of Jacob's trouble. If you believe in a post trib or mid trib rapture, then it appears that for the 1st time ever in the bible God did not tell the righteous HIS place of protection. The only place of protection God speaks of for the church is the blessed hope , the pre 7 years of Jacob's trouble, rapture. The Hebrews are told to flee to the mountains. And however does the church get inserted into the 70th week of Daniel 9-24 when the 1st 69 weeks were all for the Hebrews and Jerusalem?
gourmetmn the bible only talks about a second coming. There is one rapture it is after the tribulation and then God pours out his wrath. Bible supports a post trib pre wrath view. If you need scripture to prove this i can very easily. Just reply and ask.
Bonnie Moerdyk Amen. Good explanation.
the elect can also mean those who have given their hearts to Christ that survived the tribulation period. They would inherit the elect status afterall.
IN MATTHEW 24 , JESUS DID NOT, WOULD NOT AND COULD NOT DISCUSS OR MAKE ANY REFERENCE TO THE RAPTURE.!!
WHY?
BECAUSE THE MYSTERY OF THE RAPTURE HAD NOT BEEN REVEALED YET.!!
I was not speaking of the 70 weeks but of the 70th week. One week, a 7year period of which the 2nd 1/2 is called Great Tribulation (Mat.24:21,22). It's a time of great trouble (Dan.12:1). The 1st 1/2 is "...the Tribulation of those days..." (Mat.24:29). In the midst of that 7yr period is the Abomination of Desolation (Mat.24:15-18). That's the Appointed Time & The End (Dan.11:27-31). At that time the Resurrection of the just occurs according to Dan.12:1-3 & Jesus in LK.17:24-36 & Mat.24:15-28.
How can there be a Pre-tribulation rapture if Jesus said He would raise us up on the Last Day?
Mike65809 Right, finally one who get it! Many do not see nor understand the differance between tribulations meant for Israel only and the great wrath of God on the same day of the 2nd coming preceded by rapture! Rapture of the elect only on the Last day, after Israel's tribulations! blessed
Yes, there is also the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls that I believe affect the whole earth to one degree or another. Of course, God can keep His people safe during this time, fulfilling promises like those in Psalm 91. But we will be persecuted. God bless.
Gday Mike: here my understandings: facebook.com/notes/terra-nova-christiana/the-difference-between-tribulations-and-great-wrath-of-god-regarding-rapture/1577385438939875/
Blessings
+Mike65809 - so we have a dilemma with God's word. One can lean toward we will ALL be raised up on the last as the correct interpretation.
But I ask can it mean THOSE that are alive when Jesus returns to the earth, at the end of the tribulation, will be raised up.
Watch the analogy of 'a Jewish wedding and the pre-tribulation rapture' by the same author. He makes a compelling case for a rapture at the start of the tribulation. Too many details to go into here..but the video. He does a great job explaining things.
Mike65809 the last day on Earth it does not mean the end
He was referencing both.
BTW, is not the current Pope, the 8th King of Vatican State? Pope Francis I. He is the 8th King since the Vatican became it own small state/monarchy in 1929? Will he go into perdition? PeaceB2Ya
In Matthew 24 verse 29-31 says Jesus is coming immediately after Tribulation (not great Tribulation) on the Clouds (not on white horse of rev 19) along with his Angels (not saints) to Gather his elect. These clearly points out HE is coming for his BRIDE. Please ask GOD for the Spirit of Wisdom and Revelation. God bless you all.
harold francis This is the gathering of Israel not the Bride. Two elects one the church and the other the Jews.
A great multitude of blood washed saints from the nations (Rev. 7:9-17) who get the victory over the Beast and his mark (Rev. 15:2) will be caught up out of the great tribulation at the coming of the Son of Man and His angels. (Mark 13:26-27, Mat. 24:29-31)
I think all pretrib believers need to read Ephesians 6 and ask yourselves, why would GOD tell us to arm ourselves with the whole armour of the gospel for that evil day, if we are not going to be be here? PeaceB2All
Daniel tells us that the Son of Man will approach the Ancient is Days in the Matthew quotation of Daniel. The Greek word for angel simply means messenger. So after the ascension Christ will send out His messengers or witnesses to gather the elect. That is the entire point of the book of Acts.
CuffAnimationStudios Read it again. It is not the Elect. It is His Elect. And read Daniel 9 27 and Daniel 7 25 and Rev 13 5. That day is at the end of those prophecies.
good point
The first four trumpets are now being sounded and destroying the third part of creation as the Lord is reconsecrating the third part of the whole land. Zechariah 13:8-9 (or, 14:8-9?)
uhh no they are not Rex. go back to sleep.
The Second Coming of Christ consists of the coming of the Son of Man (Mat. 24:30-31, Rev 7:9-14), the physical return of the Messiah (Rev 10:1-7), the appearing of the Word of God (Rev 19:11-21), and the descent of the Lamb of God (Rev 21:9-10).
How about some love among the brethren ?
We have been grafted in there is only one people not two different groups
Do you not think that GOD's Word can have a dual meaning? I think the 1260 year prophecy you mentioned is or might be right. Because in Rev 12:6 The woman goes into wilderness after the brought the child forth & He was caught up to heaven. Yet, another time period of, a time, and times & half a time, after the dragon is cast out of heaven in the end days the woman is helped. Rev 12:13-14. Why would it be listed twice, after the child born & after the time the devil is cast from heaven? PeaceB2Ya
quoting ur words:matthew 24:29 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days
The Greek word translated in English as “after” is meta. We find meta translated as “after” 88 times in the authorized King James Version, but translated as “with” 345 times and “among” five times.
meta also means beyond such as metaphysics which means beyond physics
so it can also read IMMEDIATELY WITH/BEYOND
Jesus do not come AFTER the tribulation but WITH/BEYOND tribulation
Its referring to NEITHER. Its only referring to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.
The gospel is good news. Christ saves to the utter most. He didn't die on the cross so those who trust in Him would have to also take the wrath of God. He took the wrath in place of those who are His. Those who are born again will not see the wrath of God because it abides on the children of disobedience.
So you actually believe that God is going to leave His born again believers on the earth to face the destruction of His wrath ?
Hey pre tribbers, have you ever wondered how Matthew 24 says all the tribes will mourn when they see him in the clouds. Yet the 12 tribes are saved and sealed BEFORE the 2nd coming? I swear i just don't see why the tribes mourn if they were already are sealed. Unless Matthew 24 is the rapture. Compare it with the 6th seal of Revelation. Also why is the seals 1-6 in chapter 6 but yet the 7th seal is in chapter 8. In between seal 6 &7 is the 144,000 and great tribulation saints.
this is after sixth vial/bowl of GOD's wrath poured out n Rev 16:12. Then Rev 16:16 Armageddon & Rev 16:17 7th vial & a great voice from heaven saying "IT IS DONE". Not just these verses, but thru-out NT speaks of Christ return at the end or last day, such as John 6:39, 40, 44 & 54 saying we will be raised at the last day & the dead precede the living. Also Rev 20:4&5 speak of the 1st resurrection after the GTrib. Not enuff room here, hope you at least see my point. I love U n Christ. PeaceB2Ya
from year AD 538 - 1798 church has gone under severe persecutiion for 1260 years from the inquisition by catholic church, this is the period of wilderness for the woman.
when Napoleon sent general Berthier to fight catholic church n arrested pope until died in jail in 1798, it gave serious wound to the beast
but in 1929 the beast reestablished in vatican.n their 8th king shall go into perdition
The evil day in this context is not the day of the Anti Christ. It is any day that you are under spiritual warfare. That day can be today, tomorrow, last week, next week.
Brother John , Jesus said he was sent only unto the lost sheep of Isreal , he also said his flock were men. The 144,000 are Male virgins who have spoken no guile ,they are the firstfruits unto GOD,they receive the Mark of GOD. Are these not in fact the Elect ? I'm anxious for your reply .
he recently stated that a good atheist can go into heaven too, what do u say bout that ?
loka widu wrong of course. Even if a man is righteous and without sin, but does not have the Light in him and does not believe, he can not enter the Kingdom. The main thing is to believe with all yr heart, mind and soul, then automatecally the works, (obidiance) follows
that is why the post tribulation believers doesn't understand. different prophesies were given to the jews and to the gentiles. seek and you will find.
Jesus' Coming in Mat.24 & His Return in Rev.19 are not one and the same. It is Mid Trib. 2nd Coming & Resurrection of the just according to Jesus in Lk.17:24-36, Rev.6:12-17, Lk.21:25-28, Dan.12:1-3 & 1 Thess. 5:1-3.
Hey post tribbers, have you ever wondered why God had Lot and his family removed from Sodom BEFORE His wrath destroyed the city and didn't simply leave them there and protect them from the destruction ?
I guess we disagree, for verse 11 says whole armour to stand against the devil, as vrs 13 says whole armour and is specific with "the evil day" and not just an evil day or any evil day. Besides, when is the devil going to be here? For vrs 12 shows we are not speaking of wicked fleshly men but satanic powers & that points to the devil & his minions. Yet I respect your view & not saying mine is right. With brotherly love for you. PeaceB2Ya
I believe that the bride and the Jewish believers are raptured first before tribulation .the second rapture is at the time of the end are tribulation saints.
A new perspective on the Olivet Discourse, based on Matt. 24 and Josephus.
And Jesus said, “Not one stone will be left upon another.”
And the disciples asked “when will that happen?”
And Jesus said, "I’m not going to tell you the day or the hour, but I will say, some of you will still be alive when it happens. I am going to leave you and while I am gone I want you to take my prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem and I want you to go to the ends of the earth and tell every single Jew you can find, that this is going to happen and when it does tell them it will be the sign that I am ruling in heaven and the old covenant is over and the new covenant has come to pass. Tell them that now my kingdom is no longer a physical kingdom on earth but a spiritual kingdom that I shall rule in their hearts and in their minds. Tell them that when the Temple is destroyed it will be the sign to prove to the world that I was God because only God can predict the future. I am going to return in the glory and power of the Father, in judgment exactly as He always came and I’m going to use the iron kingdom, prophesied by Daniel to bring about the desolation of Jerusalem.
And since you my disciples have been entrusted with this my most important message to the entire world it is extremely important that you yourselves don’t get caught in the middle of this horror, so if you’re still in Judea when it begins your final warning will be when you hear the news that a foreign army has come and is marching toward Jerusalem, don’t take shelter inside the city, all who do shall die, when you hear the armies are approaching flee to the mountains, don’t get caught inside, those people shall experience hell on earth for 7 long years. They will first kill each other in a demonic blood fest civil war for 3 and 1\2 years and then those left will starve to death in the Roman siege and some of them will eat their own children, just as I prophesied through Moses 1300 hundred years ago. These will be the days of vengeance that everything my prophets have foretold shall come to pass. I shall pour out my wrath upon this people and their children because they shouted out at my trial, “His blood be upon us and our children.” I shall pour out my wrath upon this people who killed my prophets and my apostles and murdered me.
Now go and preach this message to all nations and teach them to obey everything I have taught you and tell them about Jerusalem’s’ coming desolation and tell them I am about to usher in a new heaven and a new earth in which I and my Father will personally come and indwell every believer. Go now and tell, don’t let anything stop you from this task. I will return in judgment. I will come back and do these things. I will come back and destroy the Temple. Go now and remember I shall be with you in my Spirit always. If you fail and stop with this duty I will be ashamed of you when I return and you will lose all that you had, but if you are faithful and succeed and don‘t quit until I return you shall be among my most honored servants.
For the wrath of GOD is for the wicked & unbelieving. 1 Thes 5 says Jesus will come as a thief in the night for the children of darkness & disobedient & they shall not escape. Yet we are children of the day, light, that that day should not overtake us as a thief. This here means we will be here at the time Jesus comes for wicked children of disobedience. Also Rev 16:15 says Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth & keep his garments, lest he walk naked & they see his shame. cont..
Anyone ever wonder why God didn't simply leave Lot and his family in the city of Sodom while His wrath destroyed the city ? After all, God could have protected them from the destruction. This is the same foolishness you get when you believe that God will leave His bride on the earth while His wrath destroys it.
Clearly, the timing of a pre, mid, or post tribulation resurrection (rapture) of the elect aren't taught in scripture. According to Jesus, His coming will come after the sun moon and stars go out (6th seal) (Mat. 24:29, Rev 6:12-14) sometime after the middle of the seven years (70th week of Daniel) (Dan. 9:27, Mat. 24:15) no man knows the exact day or hour (Mat. 24:36)
read 2 Thes 2:3 that day shall not come xcept there come a falling away first
The phrase "falling away", in 2 Thess. 2:3, is the one Greek word apostasia", and its basic meaning is to "depart from" or "go away".
The Greek word "Apostasia" is a compound of two Greek words: "Apo" = "to move away", "stasis" means standing, from its basic definition, "apostasia" means "to go away from, depart
in other english word = rapture
Nope, the tribes mourn. The wrath does not come until AFTER the 7th seal. I would still love to believe in a pre trib rapture. I am sorry you can not see this. Just remember and not blame God when persecution may come.
This is for Ilkinond. Why is it that all atheists are always angry? Seems to be a common trait. If people wish to believe in God and a Religion, why do you care and why does it upset you so much. If they can gain peace through their beliefs, that's a good thing, whether or not it proves to be true. Actually, none of us know what awaits us after death. We simply have beliefs and some of us have faith, be it substantiated, or not, it provides us with an inner comfort. If you gain pleasure in dem
matthew 24:29 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
An "A Bomb In Nation" that causes "Desolation" is a nuclear weapon of some kind, it's cloud "stands", can be seen from "far off".
I don't see how any other "abomination" causes "desolation", seeing
Nothing Stops God's Presence from being anywhere "yay I Am There".
SO how can a corrupt animal sacrifice or normal abomination, in The Holy Place cause Him not to be there.
Sin or abominations don't affect God.
My poor wife. She was okay through the four creatures, seals, and horses..(smile).., got stuck on the 144,000, and gave up after I told her we had trumpets, vials, and bowls to go. At this point in time I would advise sticking to what Jesus had to say on any subject, and taking a huge grain of salt with Paul's ideas.. (too much time in the third heaven?).
Paul got his “ideas” by direct revelation from the risen Lord Jesus himself. See Galatians 1, Eph 3, Acts 9
By you saying that Jesus claimed His flock were men, you just excluded every female ever created from being included in the bride of Christ... Not too bright... God made it very clear throughout the old testament scriptures that the elect are His people Israel.
Do you see in Rev 12:12 & following that the 1st WOE is the devil cast down to the earth with great wrath knowing he has but a short time, and then goes on to say a time, times and half a time. Just bcoz Christ opens the seals does'nt mean all the wrath is from GOD. Mat 24 even says that after the abomination of desolation there will be great tribulation as never before & this is b4 Jesus return. PeaceB2Ya
In the Hebrew Tradition, the first Trumpet is blown at Pentecost. This is when Yewah gave the betrothal to the Jewish
nation. The 10 commandments was the Katubah(Marriage Contract) The left Horn of the Rams Horn was blown.
"And I heard a voice thundering as a Trumpet and it got Louder and louder till the people gathered around the mount.
The Last Trump is Blown on the Rosh Ha Shannah, Feast of Trumpets. The right Horn or Last Trumpet.
100 trumpet blasts on Rosh Ha SHanna and the 100th blast is known as the last Trump. When the left or first Trumpet
and the Last or right Trumpet are blown together at YOM KIPPER the Day of Atonement / Judgement. This is known
as the "GREAT TRUMP" or Trumpet...all of these Trumpets are blown with the RAMS HORN. Abraham sacrificed
the Ram in the bush. The Ram is the Lamb of God and the Bush represents the SIN of the world. This was a preview
of what was yet to be played out by Yeshuah. God resurrected the RAM and used the horns for the first 2 Shofars.
(Rams Horns)....The Last Trump Paul is referring to has nothing to do with the trumpets in Revelation, these are
Angel's trumpet and sounded by Angels. Not God...The Great Trump is when the first and the last are blown together
and is known as YOM HADDIN the Great Trump "I am the first and the Last"
...Revelation chapter 6 the sealed scroll is handed to the Messiah.
Only he is worthy to unroll and see the seven seals that START the Tribulation. Only the King in Israel is worthy to
receive the title deed to the land and the Scroll of the deed. Before the seals are opened the Messiah has to be
recognized as the King. You can't be a KING in Israel until you are Married. So the Messiah Yeshuah has to
take his Bride BEFORE he can open the scrolls.....If you do not know Jewish Tradition do not try to guess what the prophecies mean.....You will not be right!!!!!!
Shalom
Chuck Lewis
onewayup78@gmail.com
I have listened to this guy to long....as in the days of Noah is a reference to many thing. The presents of
the Nephelim for one. However, In the days of Noah the people who did not get on the ark were living
their lives , business as usual. once the Tribulation starts it will not be business as usual and a
person during the Trib if they know their Bible will be able to calculate every day of the seven years.
They will know the time period of 42 months ...a time 2 times and 1/2 a time. 1260 days. this is the first
3.5 years how much more precis do you want to get...No thief in the night here...you will know every day..
No surprise here you will be able to count down the next 7 years...POST TRIB MAKES NO SENSE...
I Jewish man does not take his Bride down town and beat her up first before the Wedding...The
Groom goes to get the Bride and with his 2 witnesses they carry her away to the Marriage Chamber....
If you do not know about a Jewish Wedding what in the world are doing teaching the End Times....
Chuck Lewis That was an amazing comment.Everything that I believe.
The pre trib rapture is the truth that I have " been Around " . Don't worry about me coming to the truth. You are obviously under the impression that the tribulation is not the wrath of God. I recommend that you do a bit more study in the chapters of 6-through 18 in the book of revelation.
First off man i am NOT a post tribber. I was a pretribber my whole life. I probably know more than you about the pre trib belief. What you are to blind to see is that the seals are not Gods wrath. You are the one that believes the persecution would be Gods wrath. I am the one that sees that there is a difference. Which seal would be Gods wrath? The men hide at the 6th seal saying that his wrath has now come. Post trib makes even less sense than pre trib.
I believe those that are living during the generation that shall not pass until all things are fulfilled will be here during the great tribulation of satan's wrath=Rev 12:12. Jesus told Smryna, a church He approved of, that some of them would be cast into prison by the devil, yet be faithful unto death & you will receive a crown of Life. Not they would be raptured & then more ppl join the church of Smryna for GTrib. Yet when GOD's wrath is poured out, saints will be protected. continued..
I just can't get over what lengths of scripture twisting pretribbers will go to deny the Word of GOD & Jesus Christ, what foolishness it is to say the elect in Mat 24 is Jews & not what it really means as the chosen=elect of Jesus Christ, all those in the body of Christ, His Church, ekklesia/assembly, whether jew or gentile. How can the end of the world just come for jews? It can't. Jesus is speaking of those who believe & follow Him. Thats His Elect/Chosen. Please open eyes & ears. PeaceB2All
first great tribulation, then rapture, then wrath, the 6th seal is the wrath, see how matthew 23:29 and the 6th seal rev 6:12-17 it s the same event. please read matthew 24 and mark 13
The elect are the saints
Erik Moreno The Elect cannot be the saints. What happens to the saints in Matthew 24 22? They are not raptured. Matthew 24 23-24 clearly shows the Elect still on Earth.
Neil Wani exactly cause they are raptured in verses 29-31
Erik Moreno Nobody is raptured in verses 29-31. One is taken and one is gathered on Earth. Luke 17 22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
24 *For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.*
25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 *Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.*
36 *Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.*
37 *And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.*
THE WICKED ARE TAKEN.
Neil Wani verse 31 of Matthew 24
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
This is the second coming of Christ our blessed hope and the same day as the first resurrection in which the dead in Christ rise first then those who are alive and remain, which would be the elect of Christ,those who have endured to the end being gathered together with the sound of a trumpet.
The pretrib rapture is a lie brother don’t believe Hollywood believe the Bible.
Erik Moreno In Luke 17, who were taken? The ones moved first were taken. It is clear the ones taken are not in their bodies anymore. The vultures are circling their dead bodies. What day of Daniels 70th week is the resurrection you speak of? The 2nd coming is on the last day of Daniels 70th week.
Jesus knew that videos like this would be made, so he inspired Mark 13 where He tells the exact same story and at the end of Mark 13 He says "And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch." Matthew 24 and Mark 13 apply to everyone who is a believer.
Also Unsaved, non-believing people aren't God's chosen people. Believers are. Read Romans 11 about who the elect are. Also we are all one in the body of Christ. There is no Jew nor Gentile.
Arthur Lewis Yes One Body who is in Christ. Remember the 144,000 saves 12k from every tribe in Revelations? those are the Jews who are going to be saced in the Tribulation. Read Romans 2.
Read Revelation 7 and the parallel verses in Rev 14 so you'll know who the 144,000 are. These 144,000 are people who have already died while the 12 tribes existed. The 12 tribes are long gone now so you won't see anyone coming out of them today nor at the rapture (after the tribulation and before God's wrath.)
Arthur Lewis Are you a SDA?
The Lamb of God, who is Jesus Christ, God Almighty Himself opens each of the seals and the events that take place show that God gives the power to these demons to bring their destruction.
1st seal : a demonic being given power to conquer.
2nd seal : Major war taking place on earth.
3rd seal : Starvation and famine
4th seal : Mass deaths caused by the demon on the pale horse.
The events taking place here are caused by demons, but they are directed by God Himself , proving this is God's wrath
imho a time = a year, so a time and times n half a time = 3.5 years which refer to the 2nd half of tribulation in end times.
i mean a/c shall rule for 7 years, but in the 1st 3.5 years he shall bring the world to the utmost glory the world never knows be4, that all mankind shall b deceived by satan, then at the 2nd 3.5 years he shall pursue the remaining of the woman (Israelites) n Israelites will believe in their 2 Witnesses n shall b beheaded
as the end time saints.
Jesus Christ has returned. I AM.
I was a pre tribber my whole life until this year. I know the belief as much as anyone. I am not a post tribber now either. That view point makes now sense. They believe the rapture is the 7th trumpet while also saying we will be taken out before his wrath comes. If anyone sees the 7th trumpet they have come to the end of his wrath. But i believe we get out at the 6th seal. The 7th seal is his wrath getting ready to start.
Blessings Greg...Spot on Bro. 6th seal harpazo. Silence in heaven. Multitude of saints. 7th seal prelude to the wrath of YHVH. Shalom
Satan couldn't do anything that God doesn't permit him to do. Even wrath coming from Satan is being used by God. What you seem to be trying to do is to show that Satan's wrath is greater or more destructive than God's wrath. This is bad theology as no one is greater in anything they do than God. Besides this, Rev 6:16-17 show the wrath that has come is the wrath of the Lamb, who is Jesus Christ, God Almighty.
i think Real followers of Christ should teach more of Tribulations and
bad things to come but be strong and how to keep Jesus in their heart
when hard times come more then celebrating preaching...i mean this is
good better then prosperity which is false any one know GOD not going to
bless you with riches and allow you to have them when Jesus him self
was poor and told a rich man to give all his wealth away if he wanted to
go to heaven. celebrating helps keeps you in the spirit but it gives a
false sense of security like every thing is going to be alright that no
harm is coming your way. This is very false and for those who fall under
this thinking i encourage you read all Matthew, John and Revelations.
For it speaks many of us will have to die in the name of Jesus we will
be hated and we will be hunted when the one world government becomes
unity. we will have a choice to serve satan and take his mark or we
wont buy or sell and would have to hide to stay alive much much trouble
is to come before Jesus returns... and finally Jesus warns how many will
come in his name sake but will False (aka all the Prosperity Preachers)
and you can tell by the fruit they give (aka the words they say and
action they show) if its not in the bible then its false...please READ
YOUR BIBLE DONT LET SOMEONE ELSE TAKE FEW SCRIPTURES OUT AND MAKE THEIR
OWN SAYING, KNOW WHEN SOMETHING IS BIBLICAL AND WHEN SOMETHING IS
NOT...AND PRAY NEVER TAKE THAT MARK WHEN THAT DAY COMES BE READY
YOURSELF IF YOU ARE SOME DAY CAPTURED AND FORCED TO CHOOSE JESUS OR
SATAN A SOUJA MAY HOLD YOU DOWN AND IF YOU CHOOSE JESUS WILL SHOOT YOU
IN THE HEAD... DONT BE AFRAID IF YOU ARE KILLED AND YOUR MIND IS ON
JESUS YOU WILL NOT REMEMBER THE PAIN BUT WILL WAKE UP SEEING THE ONES
THAT DID HARM YOU IN THE PIT OF GOD'S FURY AND WILL NEVER MORE MATTER TO
YOU
+Lex: Why should they? we won't be here then.
The question he tries to answer is, In Matthew 24, is Jesus referring to the Rapture or His Second Coming? But the correct answer from the Bible is... Neither! Both the rapture and the second coming will happen in the future while Matthew 24 is talking about events that occurred in Jesus' generation as he clearly puts it in Mat. 24:34. Those events were to occur as warning signs to the Christians of his day so they may escape to the mountains before God dropped the abomination of desolation like a bomb killing tens of thousands of Jews and turned their great temple into a pile of rubble. With the Christians surviving and spreading to the mountains, the Kingdom of God was given to the gentile nations and began to deliver the fruits that the "chosen nation" failed to deliver. That I believe, is the true message of Matthew 24.
"Immediately after the tribulation.." in Mat.24:29 does not mean after the Great Tribulation, but after the 1st 3 1/2 yrs of Daniel's 70th Week according to Jesus in Lk.17:24-36. In verses 30,31 He says He will be Revealed IN THAT DAY when the Jews flee to the mountains in haste. That day according to Him in Mat.24 is at the Abomination of Desolation in the midst of the Tribulation / Great Tribulation period. That's the Appointed Time & The End according to Dan.11:27-31, 12:1-3. Mid Trib.it is.
Both, Jesus appears in the clouds on His way to pour out His Wrath on the earth. When He appears in the clouds The dead in Christ shall rise and the believers who are alive will be caught up to meet Jesus in the clouds. Once we are safe Jesus and His army will continue down onto the earth to execute the Wrath of the Lamb. It all happens so fast it’s almost simultaneous.
Read Jesus's teaching in John 14 ... Believers will be snatched away AND RETURN TO THE FATHER's HOUSE WITH JESUS where Jesus is now preparing rooms for us!
Randy's New Walk Ministry You forgot the marriage supper!
Did you forget what Jesus told His disciples in John 14? He promised to come for us and RETURN TO THE FATHER'S HOUSE where there are many rooms. Later, we return with Jesus for the closing scene of the Great Tribulation wrath and the establishment of the Kingdom.Read John 14 the immediately read 1Thess 4:13-17
This reasoning leaves no time in heaven for the marriage supper, the judgment seat of Christ and the rewards given.The fact is when Christ returns (Rev19:11) The saints (believers) come back WITH Him..These are the ones in Rev19:7-8 dressed in fine linen, white and clean who are part of Christ army that return with Him to judge and make war.Following on white horses, they will only observe as Christ defeats the antichrist and the batlle at Armageddon, then establishes His Millennial Kingdom on earth.
we are the elect the church
The great tribulation is for Jerusalem and Judea. It is the time of Jacob's trouble.
Yes bad things will happen throughout the rest of the world during the Tribulation but Jesus is describing the attack on Jerusalem by the armies of the Antichrist. One Jew will be taken away prisoner and the other will be left in Jerusalem to endure the great tribulation.
Actually pre trib is ear tickling my view is depressing.
God will pour His wrath on earth with 7 trumpets n 7 vials, how can u wish to b here on earth without receiving His wrath, water shall turn into blood n u shall drink it unless u r raptured first.
Post trib rapture end of story the dead in Christ rise first
Bible supports a post trib pre wrath view of the rapture. Matthew 24, 1thess4, Mark 13, and like 21 describes same event. 2thessalonians 2 reaffirms 1thessalonians 2. But you say no man knows the day or your ( but that day is immediately after the tribulation). End of revelation six describes the sun darkening the moon going red and the stars falling. That is same event as Matthew 24:29. Keep reading revelation and it describes God's wrath. God's wrath is after the catching away of the saints immediately after the tribulation. Study this out. Want to understand revelation cut it in half. Chapters 1-11 is chronological and chapters 12 til the end is chronological read them side by side chapter 12 starting with Mary carrying jesus, then it gets into the tribulation quick. Every time elect is used in the new testament it refers to the saints. It is so simple if you study this out. Study Matthew 24 Mark 13, luke 21, 1cor15, and1 these 4 am describe the same events. 2thess2 explains 1thess4 and puts it into context. End of rev 6 describes Matthew 24:29. God's wrath is after the trib after the taking away. Rev 1-11 is chronological. Rev 12through end of chapter is chronological started with birth of jesus. Elect in Matthew 24 is church as well as when elect is used in rest of new testament. Don't need word games. Just need to understand the bible in its simplicity. I'm no expert on this but I do understand this. Study it out.
Bryan Ekberg you cannot say study it and leave half the end time scriptures out. Why don't you incorporate Daniel 7 25 and Rev 13 5 in your list. There is no prewrath or post trib rapture.
Bryan Ekberg there are other scriptures to study. Luke Daniel 9 27 and Rev 12 6. Also, Micah 5 2-3 and Jer 30 6-7 and Zech 14 6-9
Matthew 24 happens WITHIN you. It's allegorical in nature and describes a process that occurs within you.
Nonsensical NEW AGE comment...
CuffAnimationStudios Why don't you go on some sites where you talk about crystals and soul separation. People that believe in the bible will never listen to your nonsense.