Greetings brother, just wanted to offer my thoughts on the role of PvP in Ashes. I’m sitting on a plane right now, flying back to San Diego, and I just finished listening. I have a lot of thoughts on the role of open world PvP in a game like Ashes, but I’ll try to stay concise since I’m on my phone xD First and foremost, PvP in Ashes exists in both opt-in systems and events, as well as our open world flagging system. And while it is true that I enjoyed and took much inspiration from games like Lineage 2, we have innovated and adapted our approach to Ashes’ flagging system in order to further disincentivize griefing while still allowing the system to keep risk relevant in the open world setting. The overwhelming majority of player’s experiences with PvP in Ashes will be through consensual systems like caravans, sieges, wars, the open sea and other events. Players will make a choice to participate in those systems or not. And if they choose to participate there will be significant rewards for success.
In the open world, when competing for the scarcity of resources, raids, dungeons and or hunting grounds, an important element of risk vs reward is introduced through our flagging system. Players must be aware of their surroundings and the reputation of other players who may be in proximity. The flagging system is intended to always provide an element of risk in all settings, but also architected to ensure that griefing and PK’ing is almost never worth it. The subtleties of this system are complex, which is of course why it will require considerable testing and feedback. There is a good write up on the flagging system and its intricacies at the Asheswiki, but ultimately your sentiments are correct that griefing is bad and I feel we have created a system that will sufficiently deter the potential for rampant griefing as it has occurred in other similar systems. But time and testing shall tell. Happy to talk more about this topic and any others whenever you want. I do, after all, love these discussions.
Hey steven, thanks for always being so open with the community. Sadly the truth is no matter what “system” you implement people will find ways to grief, if not alot then even a small bit is very frustrating. I waited for years for albion online, and then midgame i figured that i “had to” pvp with a full loot system in order to enjoy the full contents of the game. The result was i quit and deleted the game even though i love the artstyle etc. Of the said game. No one wants their time wasted, if i wanted that i could play games like league of legends, counter strike or fortnite etc, were its “always pvp”
@@stevenjsharif I believe being able to talk to people in the open world is the best way to solve mostly all this video's concerns in the highest possible order of magnitude. After all who cares about killing a character with no human attributes to them, a voice is a powerful tool.
I must admit though this video does make me concerned again when it comes to recreative griefers. Should your flagging system not be enough would you -then- be willing to change your stance on it? You could for example turn the scarcity stuff into a player caused scenario. where otherwise players can peacefully compete, you could drop a "monster coin" or a "declaration coin" which warns all players that within 5 minutes (or so) the entire area becomes a pvp hotzone. Or you could add duels with varying degrees of risk, you can declare a gamble for a piece or you can gamble to the death for someone's whole load. Both parties will have to accept it like gentleman.
Ahh.. The days of Karma Bombing people in Tera were truly wonderful. Getting on a low level and hanging around PvP Areas to force high levels into leaving or getting locked into a flagging system. I'm glad Asmongold did all these things because its good to know the extent at which such a system can be abused via experience.
Definitely agree. This made me look back at 4story, F2P, P2W, PVP everywhere mmo, i used to love growing up. You either emptied your wallet or gave it your whole life to get good gear and then world pvp was fun, when you were guaranteed to win 9/10 encounters just because of gear. Obviously i was broke so i actually spent 90% of my play time, sitting in the city, trading for any kind of profit to improve my gear, i never even reached max level after years. Suprise the game is completely dead now
Eve Online is not dead. They have 250,000 active players daily. EO is also not a good comparison to AoC in this aspect because there are areas in the game (null sec) that pvp has no repercussions. You can kill players at will with no penalties.
New World didnt make it out of Alpha with always on PvP. The toxic PvP'ers got set up then camped the starter beaches and wouldn't let new players move off the beaches. When AGS changed to the flag system, the toxic's then flooded the forums with hate and endless memes until NW became a running joke. If AoE changes to a flag system, watch the forums, a 100 of the most sweaty players will use 10 alt accounts each and flood the forums with 1000 messages a day, making it seem like the "majority" want always on, full loot PvP and/or make the game seem "bad" overall. That is exactly what happened in NW (the content and end game of NW was a separate issue and came much later on).
@@RACGump archeage had a fun system, you would get crime points and could be attacked by anyone without consequence and if you died you would go to court and plead your case to a jury of players. If found guilty you would end up in jail for hours at a time and you had to be in game for those hours. Get too many crime points and you are banished from your faction and stuck as a pirate who can be attacked by anyone and killed by town guards
@@RACGump Full loot doesn't exist for PvP only exist for Corrupted griefers/PKers. I assume you mean flag system, it doesn't have to change to it, it already is on a flag system.
@@RACGump people cried their damn eyes out for no pvp before they could even dial anything in, pvp scared people will continue to try and ruin every pvp mmo that tries to come out with the tears lol
In vanilla I used to mind control people in booty bay from the top of the pirate ship mast who were using the bank. They die to NPCs causing them a repair bill due to engaging in pvp and I got shot with a musket into the ocean where they leash by the time they swam to me. There will always be a way to grief someone by abusing the system.
yea, but cant do anything about taht, or just very little, do you wanna neuter the gameplay just because 2% of the player base might grief someone here and there?
If you use the gnomish mind control cap and it backfires it tags the target as the PVP aggressor and the guards and Booty bay would kill them instead. Used to sit there on my Hunter and just troll with that hat. Vanilla WoW was a wild time...
One aspect of full pvp that sounds kind of cool is that there's the oppertunity for mercenary guilds who take gold for protection. But that would require the mercenaries to reach max level before they quit:/
@@jamaly77 most People also have a Job that doesnt require all their time and attention. Now, if you have other responsibilities after work that needs to be prioratized over games then thats by your own volition. Saying its for content creators and the unemployed is Just wrong. Im not trying to defend the game, your take is Just bad lol
@@ImAsher fr, I go to school (working on my masters) and work full time, and I play rust with my friend who is actively deployed in Egypt right now… in rust pvp/grinding is even allowed when you’re logged off so it’s 20x sweatier than this too.
Biggest problem that ashes will have is that it will take some time for the community to self regulate. Till that happens and the servers / regions in the servers are known to the players there will be a large drop off due to toxicity
I think there will be an interesting dynamic between primary and sub nodes. There might be some initial conflict too but hopefully there will be collaboration within regions against other regions. The node system kinda brings in a twist.
@@F34RDSoldier805 I feel this is the same for any game that has player built economies/cities/whatever. They make it impossible for newbies to get into the game so they just quit after an hour.
In the long run drama will do its work and regulate the player dynamics. Even pve players would eventually want to pvp just to kill somebody they hate from another guild.
I like the idea that OSRS had. If you attack someone in the wild you get skulled Meaning you lose all your items on death. You could see them on the mini map and therefore would often be targeted. This only happened if you attacked someone first not retaliating. Also there was a limit to levels attacking others. For instance I think it was the player couldn't be more than 15 levels lower than you. Otherwise you were protected. I forget exactly the limit but it was a great implementation
To clarify its not a perfect system. There is world hopping etc. It's just a system I thought worked decently. It definitely can be improved upon. Like Asmon said it's a play by ear thing when it comes down to it
Pvp battles for spots in lineage 2 when you were at war with another clan or when you met that clan members somewhere and you called your own to attack that was something worth playing for as it wasn't just about grinding, there was a purpose for your character to become stronger so that you could help your clan in fortress or territory wars
@@diegojorda2600 Its Simple: People like closed dungeons because they can't be locked out of content because of pvp that isn't even related to them. For example: As much as the land wars above are cool for those involved it also locks everyone else out of that content while its happening. Thus doing this just pisses off the other 99.9% of the player base who are not involved and just wants to do that content.
@@Warcrafter4 but why would you play a game an open world if it isnt for the world domination and glory? I mean, if you like killing mobs woulnt be better to play starwars last jedi or some game like that?
@@diegojorda2600 as someone who loves pve and more specifically mythic plus dungeons in world of Warcraft, the answer is simple, competition. I love to out dps other players in dungeons. Pvp is fun but not on mmos for me, I rather play league of legends then wow pvp.
Yeah, asmon is way off the mark on this one. The politics/clan dynamics in lineage 2 were completely different to what he describes. Lineage 2 was just too hardcore for any player who just wanted to be end game in a week and sit rerunning dungeons for their hour of social interaction every couple days. L2 was about legit creating a footprint on the game, and the people around you. They ultimately found the sweet spot late in development(like c5 or later) where people could go into instances in catacombs. Gave a safe xp option that wasn't quite as good as the outside xp but was constant and profitable. If you wanted to be a carebear, you could simply go there with your clan/groups and avoid all of the real excitement of the game while avoiding neutering mechanics to placate the softies.
Reminds me of playing on PVP servers on WoW and a lot of people that thought they wanted to PVP realized how much they didn't like it once they got to STV.
@n. noxti I feel u on that. Once I started working a lot pvp servers became a lot more difficult but I am still too stubborn to go to a purely pve server. My horde are on Whiteman and alliance are on grobb
This is exactly why I will not/have not purchased a game pack for Ashes. Always on pvp is a death sentence for a MMO; a grief fest is so accurate. Some people are just nasty and have "fun" destroying the fun of others. Not for me.
as an ex-griefer and ofc a rogue main so I obviously love world PVP and I almost completely agree with you on this one, The driving point is true to make someone to log out. I'm not like that anymore, however, the solution is pretty simple for me. Just think what would stop me do that without taking the fun and opportunity from me and I see this possible solution: Make a player who died a second time to someone have a hidden buff for one hour that makes his damage against that player that killed him a second time in the world PVP boosted damage by X against that person.. could be scaling each death or it could be a form of a debuff for the griefer that makes his damage less to the target... simple as that, that would make me stop after like 3-4 kills tops, I'd move on. Solved
interesting idea, but you still countereted your own point. 3-4 kills. PVE players don't want to fave even 1 PVP death. If we die because mob is too strong, too high level, or we pulled too much that is on us. And annoyingb ut not rage enducing. When your trying to kill a mob and say a rogue unstealths and kills you. Even it is one time, that is still one time to many. Like i dn't know how to explain it to a pvper any more simple than that. 1 pvp death when you don't want to pvp is 1 too much. now if say in retail wow. i turn warmode on. truth be told i only do it for the xp gain. i don't wnt to pvp i want to get to max level and get to playing the part of the game that i love. but I understand that in warmode I can get ganked. I personally will deal with it one time adn keep going, usually with a /sigh at the person doing it. if it happens again. i'll rez. hearth and turn off war mode, pissed off, but ill do it and continue. All of that ws my choice. When you dnt get a choice, the rage is magnified by 1000x. Toggle is best, becuase it becomes player's choice.
Archeage was extremely popular pvp mmo. It died cause p2w, and lacking endgame expansions. Archeages model is a perfect example of how it can work. Never heard anyone complaining about Archeage PVP, and quitting over it.
it did not die because of ptw , ptw was nothing new and there are plenty of popular ptw games, if it was so great it for sure would not die because of it. It died exactly because of pvp and hackers.
@@-PureRogue You're extremely wrong. And I could pull data backing this, showing as people entered higher phases, and gears more costly, and more p2w is added to the market the player count would dramatically drop. Only time people were upset by the pvp is in later phases when others would be overwhelmingly more geared, (through p2w) you stood no chance in pvp. But does that make it a pvp problem, or a developer greed/competency problem? If you think Archeage died becaue of PVP you've clearly not invested any substantial amount of time into the game, and have no idea what you're talking about.
I feel like this issue can be address in a few different areas. At the core of the game, something that players can choose or just have very face value fixes. For example, they could add an option where you can respawn with a debuff that makes you unable to engage in PVP for ten minutes or whatever. Another option, they could have a consumable item, that once eaten, enables PvP for that character. This way people can get to max level, or get to where they want, they choose to enable PvP if they want. This would be an opt in PvP though. For forced PvP, like WoW style, what they want to watch out for is repetitive ganking, where it becomes griefing. To deal specific with griefing, maybe they can make a limit, you can only kill someone once an hour or something. As someone who plays/ed on Grobbulus with Wow Classic, I have to say that experience of STV is something.... of and acquired taste. I like it, but I don't expect people to deal with all the ganking and griefing, just to get to the good parts. I didn't experience much of repeated ganking and stuff, but a simple time buffer where a player can't kill another player for x amount of time, would have resolved most of the issues. There is nothing you can change about being ganked though. High levels will always shit on low levels, it's just human nature. I'm talking Hillsbrad Foothills haha. To take that out of the game, you would need to impose level caps. Maybe you can only PvP with someone within two levels. This would restrict a lot of world pvp, but would enhance some player experiences. Another option, make all characters below a certain level unable to engage in PvP. There are a few solutions, we will just have to wait and see how they are implemented upon launch.
What we need is a great MMO that is made for people who want to play an MMO. It's very difficult to make a successful MMO and to pull it off without appealing to widest audience (which is people who don't want to play MMO), seems impossible. I hope a developer will pull it off one day, I hope Ashes of Creation will pull it off.
Warcraft Classic had factions for PvP, and many of the comments for Asmon's Twitch pointed out that AoC isn't just 2 factions against each other, but Asmon didn't respond to any of those comments. From what Steven said, it looks like they are putting measures in place to prevent ganking low levels, and also the corruption system in general prevents repeated ganking. But we won't know for sure until it's tried in the alpha 2 or betas. Hopefully we get an Alpha 2 this year or early of 2023.
Because in Wow that killed the factions. It literally killed the factions which means it killed PvP as a concept in those realms. What happens in a game with no factions where players can't just switch to the winning faction? Players slowly quit. That's why he didn't respond directly. Because the explanation is contained in the example itself.
@@justinwhite2725 Yeah I also played a ton 9f L2, my childhood was all about PvP based MMOs mainly from Asia since we couldn't afford WoW in my country. And I love those open world PvP moments but what Asmon says is 100% true. The bulk of any modern playerbase consists of casuals. Casuals don't like the open world pvp playstyle because it comes with way more negatives than positives and it comes with way more negatives than any other playstyle in those games. And I personally as a mainly open world pvper prefer above all to just have a huge playerbase in my MMO world.
@@xXSinForLifeXx a question i had for some time bout that. Is there anything stopping griefers from bringing a few lowest lvl chars to die to aoe of someone to corrupt em?
@@xXSinForLifeXx well i asked cuz as far as i know AoC doesnt have opt-out option. AOE being toggle-able is a better step, but if we going to go to such lengths, why not have optout or PvE only servers?
I think PvP should always be about control as opposed to focusing on loot. If your PvP system focuses on loot, aka a full loot system (which ashes will not have) then the PvP will inevitably devolve into meaningless griefing to make a quick buck. With the corruption system (if and only if it works as intended) and the lack of a full loot PvP system I think this will mitigate griefing for the most part and more encourage PvP to be focused on controlling a certain area such as a profitable world boss. The only issue I have is the XP lost on death. It does nothing to make the game better. Leave that in the past. Hopefully these systems can get fined tuned in the alpha and beta tests.
I agree with this comment almost 100%. I just think XP loss on death paired with corruption system helps regulate it better. Nothing sucks more than trying to gank a group out of a zone to be whipped and lose 3 days of grinding XP for that attempt. They just need to make it that if you are purple or red you lose 4% and 10% (or other values) xp on death + items drop and the world PvP is self regulated. You have to make a risk/reward on every action.
As a casual with limited time to play per day and interest in the game, if I experience griefing - I am out. I experience enough stress at work, I do not need that shit in my spare time when I want to relax and have fun. Toggle for pvp participation should be the norm - if you don't want to pvp then you are not forced into it.
This is kinda funny because, I played Lineage 2 for a while myself and experienced the open PvP system the same as this guy did. However, even considering that, the most pvp griefing I've ever experienced happened in Stranglethorne Vale and Hellfire Peninsula. Lineage 2 never came close to that. L2's biggest problem were the chinese gold farmers who just wanted to lock down areas for themselves and would kill you if you interfered. The generic degenerate griefers never lasted long cuz they'd get swarmed themselves.
Only problem with the "they will get swarmed themselves" is that this is the modern era. They will be super geared players griefing with MORE super geared players.
@@shawnburs601 they won’t even be able to get that organized nor in large numbers, when the legions of bounty hunter coalitions will be after even just one player.
@@tcan225 Read about Devilsaur mafia in WoW. It never happend in WoW back in 2004, but it happend in 2019. Gamers wont play the game the same way as people did 20 years ago.
@@shawnburs601 RF Online a PVP Centric game from 2004 Got this fixed.A Geared griefer gets wrecked by another geared Guildmate/Player for being assholes the things Asmond and that other streamer are worried about, got taken cared of by other geared players protecting the weak.
Why Asmon need to compare AoC to WoW world PvP? You don't even lose shit when you die in WoW. All those softcore MMO players come and try to make Ashes another casual, easy to stream, half afk game that you can play with one hand in cheetos. Ashes was never meant to be a game for everyone but one with a risk vs reward system. It's not like it'll be some harcore PvP either with all players randomly killing each other. MMOs are played way different when it actually matters if you die. Take for example Tibia, where if you would die with the equivalent to "red name" you would lose all your eq and 2~lvls. And the game was great before it became p2w. Because ppl don't just randomly kill each other when death matters. It's actually less toxic than PvE servers cuz ppl respect each other if you can get hunted and lose weeks worth of gear. If you're worried of pk just join a guild that doesn't go to wars with another or don't be a dickhead, get some skill and you'll be fine. Players nowadays cry so much whenever they can die in a game even tho they don't lose much, I really hate it. Also Steven used to play Lineage 2, I'm sure he know most flaws of PvP and working on a system that will eliminate those.
Archeage is what made Steve start AOC. I was a member of Steve's guild in Archeage and remember him talking about it. I bet the PVP will work like Archeage, where the areas have a time for open world pvp and a peace time where there is no pvp.
@@reltfahcsnessiw The game is years away, Lineage 2 model doesn't work for today's MMO'S unfortunately. I was a big L2 fan and played it at launch. I know Steve had a guild in L2 but I joined them in Archeage. Steve is smart, im sure he knows that model won't give him the returns he needs or want. Archeage model is the best of both worlds I believe.
I actually LOVE the idea of being able to have a pvp scenario in a dungeon. Its super fun in Albion. Especially if you can cap the amount of people in a dungeon. It really adds value to what youre doing, strategy, and a sense of adventure. I get that people who want to solely PVE will not like that... but I think this is where the community is divided. There can't be an MMO that fits all scenario. Only way you can have a great pvp oriented MMO is if you go all the way with PVP MMO and cater to that. Only way youre going to have an amazing PVE MMO is if you go all the way with it. Sure you can have a bit of content for the opposite side here and there. But the sandbox PVP MMO experience is a unique one that is awesome. New World shouldve just went all the way with it. Albion does it with incredible MMO game design. If Ashes wants to do this, they need to go all the way. If they dont want to do it, don't implement a half assed version of it and just focus on PVE experiences.
Couldn't agree more. Albion is an amazing game, and it's a mmo with great focus on PVP. The solo experience is nice, and the group experience, when in a good guild, is even better!
the game will suffer from the same problems that most open PVP games suffer from the Wolves hunt the Sheep eventually the Sheep get tired of getting hunted and quit then the Wolves hunt the Lesser wolves who then get tired of it and quit and this cycle just continues until the population drops to very low numbers.
People with lives outside of games will just not waste time playing this. I did the Lineage 2 experience so many years ago. It got boring very quickly. I went back to play something I wasn't wasting time on.
In a book about a full dive MMO, I read that in one of them, they had a system where you could call an admin which was a literal God-powers character that could teleport to your location. And using basic logic, you would appeal your case as to get something bad to stop happening, but if you called an admin for a dumb reason or to mess around/no bad thing was happening that needed him, you would get punished instead. Such a neat idea :P Every griefing situation here could be prevented that way mostly
I think manually dealing with griefers on a case by case basis is definitely the most effective way to handle this sort of stuff. The big problem with this is that it's really labor intensive on the part of the developer. I suppose the workload of doing it might lessen over time, like how when asmon started FFXIV the devs were able to stop people from griefing him by being really hands-on, but that was a really high profile case and I think it would be much harder to protect a wider amount of players
You are right about people not wanting to waste time. I'm older now with job/family ect. ect. It is not like some other player 'won' if I quit. Quitting a game is as easy as choosing one fast food place over another because the line was shorter. If when I log in I'm not very quickly having fun and enjoying the game then I'm out. It's simple.
Yeah I don't understand why everyone thinks an MMO needs to have PvP. As we've seen by example time and time again, all people do is grief others and waste their time. I think it's funny people call the ones that play PvE "care bears" when they're the ones ruining the game and giving themselves a bad name. They could make Ashes of Creation have PvP similar to FF14 where it's a completely separate instance and game mode or at the very least, have it toggleable in the open world. It's really not that hard to manage.
What I love about PvP in MMOs is the immersion and complexity you could get in compared to a MOBA. That's why I really would love to have a decent PvP focussed MMO. But I know it is so complex that it is really diificult to pull that of. My idea for the PvP in Ashes of Creation would be: have a toggle for PvP which works at most places. There are some places tho you are forced to go PvP mode like in a caravan escort mission or on the ocean. Fact is that it doesn't make sense when there wasn't forced PvP in some situations. My own idea is that PvP and PvE players alike can help making the own node big. While PvPers can defend the own node or transport special goods, PvE players can farm specific dungeons to get special material which is needed for the PvPers to get good equipment for an example. An environment where both kind of players can support each other to reach the same big goal together. Maybe players could be able to place super powerful guards in front of a dungeon which don't let in players who don't belong to the node, except when there is no one in there AND they pay a fee to the nodes owners. I feel like there is quite some potential to prevent griefing and even make a good feature out of the prevention at many places. But for sure I feel like oceans and escorts should force players into PvP mode, aswell as some world bosses maybe
If they use a pvp system similar to Lineage 2, you will think long and hard when you want to kill someone, that's better than WoW. This is not bullying, this is a clan war ..... you can see that the ones that killed the guy didn't turn purple or red. 12:58
I think a system like that of Albion Online works really well. PVE players and gatherers are rewarded because of higher prices of resources. Pvp is rewarded by gear drops. Only wear what you are willing to lose. Economy is mostly controlled by the players. It has 3 types of zones mainly outside of tutorial(blue) areas: Yellow (almost entirely pve only/ faction pvp, beginner area) don't lose gear on death Red ( gankers/ pvpers have to flag to start combat to fight non flagged people, mid-high tier area faction Pvp) lose gear on death Black (always flagged, highest tier areas) Lose gear on death Reputation system works fairly well as the more you flag for pvp and attack non flagged players the more regions you are locked out of increase ( first locked out blue -> yellow -> red-> until you are forced to stay in black zones till you pve enough or the rep decreases over time. Arena modes, for the more small group pvp They have the roads of Avalon for a randomizing labyrinth of maps for different group sizes(it has different color portals connecting that only allow so many people through at once)
17:39. I had one of those quit moments when I played BDO many years ago. At like level 20 you got PvP flagged and you could not opt out of it. Enjoyable activities like fishing and lifeskills like logging and running trade caravans became impossible to do. I got ambushed so many times when I was just out doing nothing in the forest. There were so many deaths. I still remember the moment I quit the game for good. I was out riding around with my horse and cart just gathering materials when I got attacked by a big warrior dude. I tried to outrun him but he just used some kind of charge agility to run after me on my horse and cart. He killed me and my horse and cart for the last time. I just did an ALT+F4 and closed the game forever.
in archeage u can kill anyone at any time (even in cities) and the game worked fine. While fishing, there were cities with rivers or by the sea with npc guards that one shot anyone trying to fight.. just leave afk near one of those and u fine. This also give the world some realness, otherwise the game became a lot of random double accounts on afk farming some stuff... while u are afk u have the risk of being killed and lose someshit. Its nice to say that normaly to become PK is not good at all, hardly is worth it.
Open world pvp I don't think will ever succeed. On the one hand if you penalize the people being trolls there's no reason for them to stop. They'll just game the system and get away with it. As mentioned, Perma-Reds who are geared to the 9s and able to kill nearly anything with a bot fed meta-build. The opposite side is to have bounties of game-breaking proportions to encourage people to hunt down PKers and join 'white' guilds. The real problem though is every solution anyone has ever come up with either causes more problems or leaves gaps that can be exploited, and there's no way around that.
For anyone that doesn't know him, Lucky Ghost for a long time was primarily an ESO content creator. He like a lot of other ESO creators that do PvE (and occasionally PvP) is branching out more into other MMOs right now after a few weird patches
Maybe the solution might be to make an option to be in more guilds in the same time, like in ESO. Make different guild types. If you CHOOSE to join a PVP guild, the settings within the guild should also have a war button like in Lineage and you should be able to pvp those players from wars. In that case you are not able to attack players who dicede to not enter such pvp type guild and enjoy the content without any harrasment. If you want to try pvp, you join such clan, who already has declared wars and find people from enemy guild to open world pvp them. These fights will not affect people who there near them because they have nothing to do with the conflint they have between each other. Being in pvp clan should have also unique content. Also with caravan system you should able to enjoy pvp in some limited way without joining any clan.
I know it's not the best example, but it's based on archeage and the open pvp isn't that open, there are designated areas/events, and yes they are needed to progress, but there's a peace/war system where u can be safe or not safe, and there's "mats" on the line so there's risk/reward, like honor/boosted drop rate/bossted xp and things like, imo that system is well designed for both who like and don't like the always open pvp. Edit: It all depends on how much each event is needed and how good some drop are, so if it's possible to progress without certain event and it's just for fun but with good drops that makes people want to do it, we just need to wait to see how it plays out. Edit 2: To end, guilds/groups of people shouldn't be able to do certain events on their own, what i mean is to be needed to include a bigger raid/nation or the faction to cooperate to be able or rewarding to beat events so for it to be a win win situation and incentivate the coop, but again that depends on people and they are the problem, so it's very hard to predict what's going to happen and might be completely different in each server.
Steven was a guild leader in Archeage and AoC is basically his love child of Lineage 2 and Archeage which both heavily inspired it so I think we'll see a lot of systems from AA but more fleshed out and with more thought and care put in to it unlike *cough* Trion.....
@@Stygiophobic yeah that's true, lots of systems are similar but with inovation, really good. Still believe that AA open pvp was really good with those limitations. Just needs the testing.
Easy solution: Step 1) Task the Developers to play like PvEers (given the objective of avoiding PvP combat and completing tasks out in the world) Step 2) Task the game-testers to play with the goal of ruining those Devs' gameplay experience (act like a hardcore PvP guild) Step 3) Repeat this testing format every week until launch
As someone who played DAoC for most of my life I REALLY like PvP. I do not however, enjoy getting ganked while leveling, I think Archage's system was a good medium for ALMOST always on PvP. By making it toggle with a penalty to griefing by wasting their time.
There is a huge difference between the playerbase of a very expensive paid alpha and the playerbase of a publically available game. In general, the more people pay for something, the more grateful they are (they have to justify the purchase in their mind). People who do get a game for free are usually the most critical of it, and also play the game in the most toxic ways. It is the opposite one might expect...
Yeah had this experience a few times with alpha/beta testers who are generally a good bunch then the f2p will come in and completely wreck the community. Lost ark is the last example I can think of lol.
MMO with PVP on all the time, the lot of you don't know what you're missing- check out Tibia back in the day. It was great for community building. Guilds formed, guild wars started, player driven bounties, drama, man I could go on the amount of gameplay it provided. You see crisis is something most people don't want, but really do need in order to get the satisfaction later on.
@@lilramennoodle8056 Tibia History: Antica - The Ancient Years, if you can get past the cringy narration, it really has some meaningful things to say :)
If you give players the ability to grief other players they will. We all know there is a section of people who play games to ruin others experience. For me ,when these things are present in a game I'm out.
I've always felt this game will have more in common with games like Eve Online and Archeage where the inherent danger of the World is a big driving force that will set the tone for the whole game. You have to go into the game with a different mindset and plan ahead for if you might get killed. The risk/reward and checks n' balances is what is supposed to set the game apart from current fantasy genre type games. You are 100% correct, griefing will play a part in this game but only time will tell if the population as a whole sees most of the World PvP as griefing or just how AoC works. I personally like PvP driven games, the anxiety some people have while playing this type of game causes them frustration, to me is what makes the game exciting. The truth is such games do tend to have a smaller niche player base. We haven't had a good modern Fantasy MMO that attempts to try to break this mold so I'm glad AoC is giving it a try. It's very possible it could be just like Eve Online where it has only 30k people that play it. I can only hope that a different style of MMO that hundreds of thousands of people can enjoy that isn't a theme-park style MMO will change peoples concept of what an MMO can be thereby improving the genre.
When I played DC Universe Online on the PvP servers questing areas would be PvP warzones to get control over the area and mob spawns. Also if groups got together to troll other players an army of opponents usually came to defend. I had healing electrical powers and turned the tides in quite a few skirmishes in the open world.
Haven’t played an mmo before but I was thinking about it and maybe players that have red flags are banned from cities where “official” merchants and only have access to black markets that offer much higher prices for items. Additionally, rewards from quests given by npcs inside cities could be held in a “storage” or something until the red status wears off, thus barring players from receiving their quest rewards for a certain period of time or potentially impeding them from completing these quests.
I think I remember Warhammer Online having the best open world PvP ever. It actually evened the playing field by increasing your level and stats to be mostly the same as everyone else when you entered a PvP zone.
@@AlexanderBC42 If i'm not entirely wrong. Age of reckoning sadly had awfull garbage tier launch which kinda doomed the game. I played it close to when servers got shutdown and i've played it since on a private server. Personally for me it still has the most fun, engaging and rewarding PvP in MMOs. The game actually made me want to play PvP
Asmon never addresses the thing I loved the most in the flagging system (in Lineage 2 specifically) was how it affected farming. Huge places were taken by multiple small groups and solo players, similar gears, and new arrivals often tested whom could they relocate. We had much more fair fights in L2, than griefers. I remember heavy griefing in wow, archeage, aion, tera... Lineage 2 was punishing in many ways, but probably due to that, direct griefing was less common imo, I had many random fights with respectful people, average L2 players took a beating with dignity, didn't go back griefing. Point is, I don't think the majority of open world pvpers are morons. It does open up griefing, but heavy punishment (item drops) will keep it at bay imo. Still agree with the pve server option, it really can't hurt to have both. (Toggle would be pointless I think, would make world bosses a dps check instead of a bloodbath, there must be a pvp version)
@@AlexanderBC42 I mean L2 is dead for many reasons, pvp isn't one of them. That's what kept it going for a while, it literally had nothing else to offer.
I used to pull flying world bosses with aoe skills in town areas (because guards could not attack them), where people usually stayed AFK in Perfect world. Fun wipes, fun times! 🙂
I did that myself in another game. I dragged a rather tough mob to the region's spawn point; I was strong enough to survive 2 hits at most at the time. It did an AoE attack that would kill most of the noobs, and so it basically spawn killed everyone there, and people would get stuck in a loop of spawning and getting killed frequently enough for it to not de-aggro. It killed me as much as the rest of the noobs, but it was hilarious.
I use to play this one korean mmo called AION that had open world pvp. It was incredibly fun to play a powerful class and try to pick off people from other faction while they moved around to do various things.
@@blastersekla i had an asmodian sorc so my 4k dp was basically a 1 shot kill spell. you could fly over certain places and just throw one down on a high rank player and collect the honor lol good times
True, but doing big ganks (zerg) is retarded and made players leave tge game until it died.. didn't enjoy those ganks frim either sides.. but when big groups met for pvp, it was hella fun :)
I have to agree that the majority of players will not like pvp only mmo's. I think the best alternatives would be #1 Have a pvp toggle on/off like new world and maybe add a small incentive to have it toggled on. #2 Have dedicated pvp or pve servers. #3 Have the majority of the world pve but have zones or sections of zones that are pvp when you enter the area and the caravans and ships stay pvp.
well pvp only mmo is BS why? because it's worse than real world as there is no police, no consequences, only grief. Who with two mind cells would play something like that? Only the people who are afraid to do those things in real life.
Cant wait til this game fully release to explore the whole map abolute love the look on this game. only wish they show more videos of the characters. want dwarf gameplay
The amounts of insults, and threats I got, because I just pked everyone I could in old Archeage, tells me that the only ones who enjoy unavoidable open world PvP are sadistic assholes like I used to be in games, which is definitely a minority :')
Isn't it supposed to be the spiritual successor of Archeage? If so, there's a lot more to it than just PvP, like the court system, the fact factions can't easily meet each other and killing your own faction is a Crime, safe zones, etc
This is just my opinion, but the reason I liked and played an MMO like GW2 is because I didn't have to worry about doing PvP unless I actively opted into it. I understand PvP has a role to play, it's just, for me, I enjoy PvE 99% of the time and that's all I look for. I understand others really like PvP and that's all they do, and I totally get that, no problem.
the problem is with PVE first mmo's is PVP never gets focused. Balance patches and all the devs just work on pve content and like GW2 the PvP game modes get no updates or protected from pve related balances.
Asmon is so right about this, I get limited time to play after work and gym/riding my bike and if that time is wasted by some guy that has nothing better to do, I just move on, there is no way in Hell I am going to play something that even 15 mins some guy can waste. Even if I have the time (and I don't) I sure as Hell don't have the patience to be frustrated by some guy (I do that enough at work).
Here's my solution. Option in pvp and have it off at the start, and let people know how to turn it on and off. Also give incentive to turn it on. Like a 10% increase to xp gain while leveling and when at max level that turns into a 1% increase to drop chances. If you turn it on you get better rewarded but at the same time you are open to another player griefing you. IDK if dungeons will be instanced either but they should be, or at the very least do what RS does and make it so instances are bought with currency but there is a free public instance.
Eve online done well with open pvp, and it's great. risk and reward EVERYWHERE and you don't get constant pvp on you (because of risk and reward). The amount you need to spend to kill another player can vary from no loss to a huge loss if it doesn't pay off. That game done it well so it can work well, people just need to get used to it (and participate) as everyone is in an even playing field. That was until you could pay 2 win of course...
When you watch stuff like Overlord or SAO, do you think those worlds are PVP or PVE? Would you watch those shows if the characters wouldn´t have the risk of being attacked or dying? I believe that possibility adds great immersion and memorable moments to fantasy worlds. Of course the rules and systems behind the game should be absolutely updated from those in 2003. But just giving up by saying "make it pve" or "have a pve toggle option" holds back the great potential the mmo genre has.
I refuse to play a game with non optional pvp mixed with PvE. Trolls are everywhere and if I can't farm for gear then the game isn't worth even trying.
PvP mmos will keep failing over and over because PvP developers and hardcore PvP fans don't seem to understand that PvPers and PvEers play mmos for completely different reasons. They're not adjacent at all, and you will never succeed in just "nudging" PvEers towards PvP by making it "worth it" or whatever, they don't want to play it at all since they don't find it fun. I've played over 50 mmos by now and every single PvP game has failed to do their whole "we're a game for everyone!!!11" type nonsense because they just don't understand how different PvPers and PvEers are. There's no way of making a good game for both groups of players and even trying to ends up creating a "meh" game for both groups instead of making a good game for one or the other. If you're a hardcore PvE player who's all about achievements (XP, levels, items, titles, completions etc) open world PvP goes directly against your very reason for playing the game in the first place. It's anti-achievement as you're likely to lose items and/or progress. There's simply no reason to even play the game then as it removed your very reason for playing mmos. The hardcore PvP players who really want an open world PvP game with full loot etc. are a tiny, tiny group of people, and they simply can't keep a game running on their own. They need PvEers to play so the game actually makes money, so they have targets to kill etc. but they will leave when they find out there's nothing in the game for them, then the worst of the PvPers will suddenly become fodder for the better PvPers and they quit as well, as no one (including self-proclaimed PvPers) actually enjoys being at the bottom of the hierarchy, and then the game just dies like all the other PvP mmos. If you want fast-paced, balanced and skill-based PvP, mmos simply aren't your game genre. I play FPS games for that fix, and then I'll play mmos for the achievements, grouping, socializing, exploring etc. fix. I agree completely with Asmon that the only hope for a "PvP mmo" is to make it entirely optional, and then the question becomes "Is it really a PvP mmo at all?". You're still going to lose the PvEers funding the entire thing if you "incentivize" them doing PvP by putting all the high level crafting materials in PvP zones or whatever as well. They do not want to PvP at all, there's nothing you can do to change that. They simply do not enjoy that aspect so why would they do it? Why pay for a game, log on, spend time on it etc. if you don't enjoy it? For whatever reason PvP fans just don't seem to understand that PvEers play the games for entirely different reasons than them, it's not that "they just haven't tried good PvP!!1" or whatever, it's that they don't enjoy it and simply enjoy different things than PvPers. Trying to "force" or "nudge" them to do PvP has been tried tens of time, and it has failed repeatedly. They do not enjoy what you enjoy, there's nothing you can do about that.
I loved Ultima Online when it had unrestricted PvP. I played on the Pacific server and was part of KGB (Knights of Glory and Beer!). It was the most enjoyable MMO experience of my life. I didn't feel like my time was wasted when we clashed with other players because that was the game. The environment was just a backdrop and not the reason we played.
This is an eye opener. I'm very excited for Ashes of Creation, but I will 100% quit if this comes true. I expect the majority to do the same. This makes me sad. :(
Idk personaly it sounds fun to be able to be the bad guy Or trying to make strategies to defend yourself againts bad guys. I think they just have to find a way to make it balance
it sounds fun but it really isnt, it wont always be 1v1s, pretty often you'll likely have to 1v2 people that will obviously almost always end in you dying because they're a group imo there's nothing fun about someone being able to make your experience worse by killing you and stealing your quest mobs etc. kinda impossible to find a balance there
i don't get why people even play MMO when all they wnat to do is grind pve or play SOLO, for Solo you have single player RPG, for PVE dungeons you have games like Lost ark where there is no competition since there is no open world pvp
The issue is the big focus is targeted serial killing is going to be heavily punished as we know so far. But you know everyone in your guild assassinating the same guy on the same on the first of every month is pretty un-punishing
@@egbert5871 yeah but i think finding way to stop the the thief is also pretty fun Kinda becomes more competitive and ruthless Idk makes it more exciting to me But it also make sense that a lot of people dont find it fun most of the players base just want a chill game
"New world was ruined by it's PVP." Even though Asmon didn't say that, he was referring to their lack of travel options. New World on a fundamental level WAS ruined by its PVP. They initially planned on making a "Rust Clone" sort of game where you built bases and raided other people. But many a game has tried and failed to copy Rust, and even Rust is a toxic shithole only sustained by people momentarily returning to the game only to lose everything they spent days building overnight while they were sleeping. Then they switched to make a Hardcore PVP MMO where all actions were determined and revolved around PVP. But then they did their closed testing and realised that nobody enjoyed that experience, so in the last year or two of development they completely redid their game from the foundation to become a pseudo-themepark MMO with Runescape-esque professions. Leading to what was released. A nice looking, unifinished, incredibly superficial grindfest with barely any content. Because so much development time was wasted making a Hardcore Full-Loot PVP sandbox, what ended up being released wasn't up to the standard's they're capable of creating.
"People are going to pull mobs onto your group and wipe you on the boss fight"... ... That's why you clear the trash... ... The trash wasn't there to waste your time, it's there to give other teams a turn, if you cant kill the boss before the trash respawns, you failed.
@@gerbo8018 WHAT??? My entire premise was centered around respawns.. Respawn timer of trash IS the time you have to kill the boss before the next team has the opportunity to wipe you and have their turn. Jesus christ..
@@gerbo8018 Lmao wtf are you talking about, what game has trash respawning faster than you can clear it??? The only trash packs that matter for boss sharing are the ones within leash range of the boss because those are the ones a team uses to wipe another team. so the respawn timer of those trash packs are essentially a pvp centric soft-enrage timer. It's pretty simple.. You have X amount of time to kill the boss before another team is able to intervene, so everyone gets a turn and cant be blocked infinitely. Obviously the X time would be a fair amount of time based on how long the devs want the fight to last.
As long as they stay with the fan service.. Like lineages that inspiring them It will be a good game and fan service will be an additional + for us to have Especially with those detail boba slider 😏
Ashes of Creation looks really great so far and maybe separate server for PvE would be enough but Asmon might be right that wait for beta and see what happens, maybe let people try it on beta for free to test how it goes and then make some changes if necessery. When players will start to leave the game, its too late to change anything. I want this game to be great to because that would give me something to play again but only time will tell.
I usually agree with Asmon but I don't love this take. I understand it's a different situations since New World basically had no PvE content in Beta but releasing "as is" is going to cause a similar situation where they are scrambling to pivot because the Beta exposed the massive flaws in the PvP content. Asmon spent the whole video agreeing that it's a bad system to turn around and say but they should go ahead and release that system anyway. Maybe they find some kind of miracle workaround but it's doubtful given all the games that have tried and failed to do just that. Open world PvP is just not something that works in MMO's because of the time investment vs how fast you can lose the things you got from that investment.
Much more wins today, oh my God, I'm really happy for today☺️😳. I finally got my profit of $70,000 on this crypto investment after feeling so escatic and heavy minded that nothing good can come out of it.....
Lets be honest asmon dont want open pvp bc he's a streamer, If you played archage which is the main inspiration of Ashes u know all these arguments are bullshit.
I played Lineage for 12 years since the open beta quit after F2P garbage. Griefing was real like any mmo, but people PKing over a leveling spot was so rare.. There has to be a reason or you need to piss someone off real bad for them to consider going red on you. The PvP system was not the issue and AoC will even have a bumped up risk for going red. Training mobs onto your group was the only valid example this video pointed out.. Which c'mon you think Steven aint got a fix for that?
World PVP is played by a small subset of a community, forcing on everyone will not help this game, I know a lot of people that would try it if it had PVE servers.. Even worse if everything is open and not instanced. Anarchy Online train is one of the many reason that game dungeon are annoying to do.
The vast majority of MMO players are solo players. They want also the possibility of group content and some other perks of interaction with other players but none of them are going to enjoy being camped and killed on a regular basis. If they launch the game as they intend to, it is simply doomed.
I started in Shadowbane and Eve Online. Nothing balanced in those games. The biggest complaints I have are already addressed, ie, full loot, no griefing system, no system to hunt down griefers. In the above games, our guild/corp had to enforce the anit-griefing. Which is actually kinda fun for a while, but to do it full time is tiring. I would also prefer PvP servers and PvP Lite servers. The game isn't designed for PvE only.
If you played Lineage2 at its prime you would understand what it means to have open PvP, when you lose 4% for each death (unless cardinal with high rez% or bless rez) and of that 4% on lvl 78 (back on c4 you took like 3 days to get) :)
Grobulus is also an RP server as well as a pvp server so that is why it didn’t die and it has several youtubers who play on there which kinda keep it alive.
Tibia has an amazing frag system for PvP. In this game no high level player EVER attack low level players for no reason. Look it up. Killing 3 players in a day, 5 players in a week or 10 players in a months will give you a red skull for a month. Red skull means you drop all items on death and you pretty much can't play this character for a month. If a group of players attack a player, 2 people score a frag: highest damage person and the guy who last-hitted the target. If you are level 50 and some level 150 runs by, he will never attack you or even consider it. People care for their frags and will not "waste a frag" on some low level. This is combined with an ability to check a box that makes you not initialize pvp unwillingly, so you can AOE mobs that someone else lured on you - you don't deal damage to that player and you don't become an aggressor.
Greetings brother, just wanted to offer my thoughts on the role of PvP in Ashes.
I’m sitting on a plane right now, flying back to San Diego, and I just finished listening. I have a lot of thoughts on the role of open world PvP in a game like Ashes, but I’ll try to stay concise since I’m on my phone xD
First and foremost, PvP in Ashes exists in both opt-in systems and events, as well as our open world flagging system. And while it is true that I enjoyed and took much inspiration from games like Lineage 2, we have innovated and adapted our approach to Ashes’ flagging system in order to further disincentivize griefing while still allowing the system to keep risk relevant in the open world setting.
The overwhelming majority of player’s experiences with PvP in Ashes will be through consensual systems like caravans, sieges, wars, the open sea and other events. Players will make a choice to participate in those systems or not. And if they choose to participate there will be significant rewards for success.
In the open world, when competing for the scarcity of resources, raids, dungeons and or hunting grounds, an important element of risk vs reward is introduced through our flagging system. Players must be aware of their surroundings and the reputation of other players who may be in proximity. The flagging system is intended to always provide an element of risk in all settings, but also architected to ensure that griefing and PK’ing is almost never worth it. The subtleties of this system are complex, which is of course why it will require considerable testing and feedback.
There is a good write up on the flagging system and its intricacies at the Asheswiki, but ultimately your sentiments are correct that griefing is bad and I feel we have created a system that will sufficiently deter the potential for rampant griefing as it has occurred in other similar systems. But time and testing shall tell.
Happy to talk more about this topic and any others whenever you want. I do, after all, love these discussions.
Hey steven, thanks for always being so open with the community. Sadly the truth is no matter what “system” you implement people will find ways to grief, if not alot then even a small bit is very frustrating. I waited for years for albion online, and then midgame i figured that i “had to” pvp with a full loot system in order to enjoy the full contents of the game. The result was i quit and deleted the game even though i love the artstyle etc. Of the said game.
No one wants their time wasted, if i wanted that i could play games like league of legends, counter strike or fortnite etc, were its “always pvp”
@@stevenjsharif I believe being able to talk to people in the open world is the best way to solve mostly all this video's concerns in the highest possible order of magnitude. After all who cares about killing a character with no human attributes to them, a voice is a powerful tool.
my man steven.
I must admit though this video does make me concerned again when it comes to recreative griefers. Should your flagging system not be enough would you -then- be willing to change your stance on it?
You could for example turn the scarcity stuff into a player caused scenario. where otherwise players can peacefully compete, you could drop a "monster coin" or a "declaration coin" which warns all players that within 5 minutes (or so) the entire area becomes a pvp hotzone.
Or you could add duels with varying degrees of risk, you can declare a gamble for a piece or you can gamble to the death for someone's whole load. Both parties will have to accept it like gentleman.
2 sec into the video and already stopped it. Legend level content creator.
Thank God
God of stalling
@@CountArtorias theres a reason pausechamp came from his community (i think)
@@jadedjade64 I thought it was from hassan? but yeh asmongold is more fitting
Steakman pauses video. I comply.
Ahh.. The days of Karma Bombing people in Tera were truly wonderful. Getting on a low level and hanging around PvP Areas to force high levels into leaving or getting locked into a flagging system. I'm glad Asmongold did all these things because its good to know the extent at which such a system can be abused via experience.
Definitely agree.
This made me look back at 4story, F2P, P2W, PVP everywhere mmo, i used to love growing up.
You either emptied your wallet or gave it your whole life to get good gear and then world pvp was fun, when you were guaranteed to win 9/10 encounters just because of gear.
Obviously i was broke so i actually spent 90% of my play time, sitting in the city, trading for any kind of profit to improve my gear, i never even reached max level after years.
Suprise the game is completely dead now
Eve Online is not dead. They have 250,000 active players daily. EO is also not a good comparison to AoC in this aspect because there are areas in the game (null sec) that pvp has no repercussions. You can kill players at will with no penalties.
for the beta you should test all the ways you can grief someone so they can take the necessary changes
New World didnt make it out of Alpha with always on PvP. The toxic PvP'ers got set up then camped the starter beaches and wouldn't let new players move off the beaches. When AGS changed to the flag system, the toxic's then flooded the forums with hate and endless memes until NW became a running joke. If AoE changes to a flag system, watch the forums, a 100 of the most sweaty players will use 10 alt accounts each and flood the forums with 1000 messages a day, making it seem like the "majority" want always on, full loot PvP and/or make the game seem "bad" overall. That is exactly what happened in NW (the content and end game of NW was a separate issue and came much later on).
@@RACGump archeage had a fun system, you would get crime points and could be attacked by anyone without consequence and if you died you would go to court and plead your case to a jury of players. If found guilty you would end up in jail for hours at a time and you had to be in game for those hours. Get too many crime points and you are banished from your faction and stuck as a pirate who can be attacked by anyone and killed by town guards
@@RACGump Full loot doesn't exist for PvP only exist for Corrupted griefers/PKers. I assume you mean flag system, it doesn't have to change to it, it already is on a flag system.
@@RACGump people cried their damn eyes out for no pvp before they could even dial anything in, pvp scared people will continue to try and ruin every pvp mmo that tries to come out with the tears lol
@@StabbyMcStomp so you're saying you didn't even watch the video
Our biggest mmo issue is booba physics
Our biggest mmo issue is NO* booba physics
LBP, I see you are a man of culture. Booba physics are ok too
I only like this comment, because it's factual.
Yes
Big if true
In vanilla I used to mind control people in booty bay from the top of the pirate ship mast who were using the bank. They die to NPCs causing them a repair bill due to engaging in pvp and I got shot with a musket into the ocean where they leash by the time they swam to me.
There will always be a way to grief someone by abusing the system.
yea, but cant do anything about taht, or just very little, do you wanna neuter the gameplay just because 2% of the player base might grief someone here and there?
If you use the gnomish mind control cap and it backfires it tags the target as the PVP aggressor and the guards and Booty bay would kill them instead. Used to sit there on my Hunter and just troll with that hat.
Vanilla WoW was a wild time...
I used to mind control people in Stormwind from the auctionhouse as you could sneak above hahahaha
Yea, but there's easy fixes. Disabling MC in booty bay is one. The musket one shotting you is another. Lazy devs cause these problems to persist
@@puddingsimon2626 Yes, because that 2% can sour experience for the rest 98%
One aspect of full pvp that sounds kind of cool is that there's the oppertunity for mercenary guilds who take gold for protection. But that would require the mercenaries to reach max level before they quit:/
Most people have real life job. This game is for content creators and their unemployed followers.
@@jamaly77 most People also have a Job that doesnt require all their time and attention. Now, if you have other responsibilities after work that needs to be prioratized over games then thats by your own volition. Saying its for content creators and the unemployed is Just wrong. Im not trying to defend the game, your take is Just bad lol
@@ImAsher fr, I go to school (working on my masters) and work full time, and I play rust with my friend who is actively deployed in Egypt right now… in rust pvp/grinding is even allowed when you’re logged off so it’s 20x sweatier than this too.
Good concept. Never works.
Creating a poll that says "do you want pvp on all the time" with no other context is a good way to get poll data with absolutely zero value.
Biggest problem that ashes will have is that it will take some time for the community to self regulate. Till that happens and the servers / regions in the servers are known to the players there will be a large drop off due to toxicity
Maybe, hard to say when the game is still in Alpha 🤷🏾♂️
I think there will be an interesting dynamic between primary and sub nodes. There might be some initial conflict too but hopefully there will be collaboration within regions against other regions. The node system kinda brings in a twist.
@@F34RDSoldier805 I feel this is the same for any game that has player built economies/cities/whatever. They make it impossible for newbies to get into the game so they just quit after an hour.
In the long run drama will do its work and regulate the player dynamics. Even pve players would eventually want to pvp just to kill somebody they hate from another guild.
@@F34RDSoldier805 nah, you can put a lvl safe guard to prevent that.
I like the idea that OSRS had. If you attack someone in the wild you get skulled
Meaning you lose all your items on death. You could see them on the mini map and therefore would often be targeted. This only happened if you attacked someone first not retaliating. Also there was a limit to levels attacking others. For instance I think it was the player couldn't be more than 15 levels lower than you. Otherwise you were protected. I forget exactly the limit but it was a great implementation
Lineage had this before runescape
Works well for RS cause you can hop servers at any time too. Probably not so well if you can't like most MMOs
The osrs wildy system won't work in aoc
To clarify its not a perfect system. There is world hopping etc. It's just a system I thought worked decently. It definitely can be improved upon. Like Asmon said it's a play by ear thing when it comes down to it
@@Tory-JJ ahh I remember if you went deeper in it changed or something. My recollection is bad lol
Pvp battles for spots in lineage 2 when you were at war with another clan or when you met that clan members somewhere and you called your own to attack that was something worth playing for as it wasn't just about grinding, there was a purpose for your character to become stronger so that you could help your clan in fortress or territory wars
thats exactly what i think. I dont understand why people would play an mmo only to farm closed dungeons.
@@diegojorda2600 Its Simple: People like closed dungeons because they can't be locked out of content because of pvp that isn't even related to them.
For example: As much as the land wars above are cool for those involved it also locks everyone else out of that content while its happening. Thus doing this just pisses off the other 99.9% of the player base who are not involved and just wants to do that content.
@@Warcrafter4 but why would you play a game an open world if it isnt for the world domination and glory?
I mean, if you like killing mobs woulnt be better to play starwars last jedi or some game like that?
@@diegojorda2600 as someone who loves pve and more specifically mythic plus dungeons in world of Warcraft, the answer is simple, competition. I love to out dps other players in dungeons. Pvp is fun but not on mmos for me, I rather play league of legends then wow pvp.
Yeah, asmon is way off the mark on this one. The politics/clan dynamics in lineage 2 were completely different to what he describes. Lineage 2 was just too hardcore for any player who just wanted to be end game in a week and sit rerunning dungeons for their hour of social interaction every couple days. L2 was about legit creating a footprint on the game, and the people around you. They ultimately found the sweet spot late in development(like c5 or later) where people could go into instances in catacombs. Gave a safe xp option that wasn't quite as good as the outside xp but was constant and profitable. If you wanted to be a carebear, you could simply go there with your clan/groups and avoid all of the real excitement of the game while avoiding neutering mechanics to placate the softies.
Reminds me of playing on PVP servers on WoW and a lot of people that thought they wanted to PVP realized how much they didn't like it once they got to STV.
@n. noxti I feel u on that. Once I started working a lot pvp servers became a lot more difficult but I am still too stubborn to go to a purely pve server. My horde are on Whiteman and alliance are on grobb
This is exactly why I will not/have not purchased a game pack for Ashes. Always on pvp is a death sentence for a MMO; a grief fest is so accurate. Some people are just nasty and have "fun" destroying the fun of others. Not for me.
Well. Lineage2 was my bread for 10 years of hardcore pvp and pve. It was fine then and it will be fine in Ashes
How did Lineage 2 keep hardcore pvp fun ?
This guy is the biggest pve andy, bro repeated himself for 30 minutes
as an ex-griefer and ofc a rogue main so I obviously love world PVP and I almost completely agree with you on this one, The driving point is true to make someone to log out. I'm not like that anymore, however, the solution is pretty simple for me. Just think what would stop me do that without taking the fun and opportunity from me and I see this possible solution:
Make a player who died a second time to someone have a hidden buff for one hour that makes his damage against that player that killed him a second time in the world PVP boosted damage by X against that person.. could be scaling each death or it could be a form of a debuff for the griefer that makes his damage less to the target... simple as that, that would make me stop after like 3-4 kills tops, I'd move on. Solved
interesting idea, but you still countereted your own point. 3-4 kills. PVE players don't want to fave even 1 PVP death. If we die because mob is too strong, too high level, or we pulled too much that is on us. And annoyingb ut not rage enducing.
When your trying to kill a mob and say a rogue unstealths and kills you. Even it is one time, that is still one time to many. Like i dn't know how to explain it to a pvper any more simple than that. 1 pvp death when you don't want to pvp is 1 too much.
now if say in retail wow. i turn warmode on. truth be told i only do it for the xp gain. i don't wnt to pvp i want to get to max level and get to playing the part of the game that i love. but I understand that in warmode I can get ganked. I personally will deal with it one time adn keep going, usually with a /sigh at the person doing it. if it happens again. i'll rez. hearth and turn off war mode, pissed off, but ill do it and continue. All of that ws my choice.
When you dnt get a choice, the rage is magnified by 1000x. Toggle is best, becuase it becomes player's choice.
Archeage was extremely popular pvp mmo. It died cause p2w, and lacking endgame expansions. Archeages model is a perfect example of how it can work.
Never heard anyone complaining about Archeage PVP, and quitting over it.
it did not die because of ptw , ptw was nothing new and there are plenty of popular ptw games, if it was so great it for sure would not die because of it.
It died exactly because of pvp and hackers.
@@-PureRogue You're extremely wrong. And I could pull data backing this, showing as people entered higher phases, and gears more costly, and more p2w is added to the market the player count would dramatically drop. Only time people were upset by the pvp is in later phases when others would be overwhelmingly more geared, (through p2w) you stood no chance in pvp. But does that make it a pvp problem, or a developer greed/competency problem? If you think Archeage died becaue of PVP you've clearly not invested any substantial amount of time into the game, and have no idea what you're talking about.
I feel like this issue can be address in a few different areas. At the core of the game, something that players can choose or just have very face value fixes. For example, they could add an option where you can respawn with a debuff that makes you unable to engage in PVP for ten minutes or whatever. Another option, they could have a consumable item, that once eaten, enables PvP for that character. This way people can get to max level, or get to where they want, they choose to enable PvP if they want. This would be an opt in PvP though. For forced PvP, like WoW style, what they want to watch out for is repetitive ganking, where it becomes griefing. To deal specific with griefing, maybe they can make a limit, you can only kill someone once an hour or something. As someone who plays/ed on Grobbulus with Wow Classic, I have to say that experience of STV is something.... of and acquired taste. I like it, but I don't expect people to deal with all the ganking and griefing, just to get to the good parts. I didn't experience much of repeated ganking and stuff, but a simple time buffer where a player can't kill another player for x amount of time, would have resolved most of the issues. There is nothing you can change about being ganked though. High levels will always shit on low levels, it's just human nature. I'm talking Hillsbrad Foothills haha. To take that out of the game, you would need to impose level caps. Maybe you can only PvP with someone within two levels. This would restrict a lot of world pvp, but would enhance some player experiences. Another option, make all characters below a certain level unable to engage in PvP. There are a few solutions, we will just have to wait and see how they are implemented upon launch.
What we need is a great MMO that is made for people who want to play an MMO. It's very difficult to make a successful MMO and to pull it off without appealing to widest audience (which is people who don't want to play MMO), seems impossible. I hope a developer will pull it off one day, I hope Ashes of Creation will pull it off.
Warcraft Classic had factions for PvP, and many of the comments for Asmon's Twitch pointed out that AoC isn't just 2 factions against each other, but Asmon didn't respond to any of those comments.
From what Steven said, it looks like they are putting measures in place to prevent ganking low levels, and also the corruption system in general prevents repeated ganking. But we won't know for sure until it's tried in the alpha 2 or betas. Hopefully we get an Alpha 2 this year or early of 2023.
Because in Wow that killed the factions. It literally killed the factions which means it killed PvP as a concept in those realms. What happens in a game with no factions where players can't just switch to the winning faction? Players slowly quit. That's why he didn't respond directly. Because the explanation is contained in the example itself.
@@xXSinForLifeXx That's what they say but we will have to see first hand how those will work out.
@@justinwhite2725 Yeah I also played a ton 9f L2, my childhood was all about PvP based MMOs mainly from Asia since we couldn't afford WoW in my country. And I love those open world PvP moments but what Asmon says is 100% true. The bulk of any modern playerbase consists of casuals. Casuals don't like the open world pvp playstyle because it comes with way more negatives than positives and it comes with way more negatives than any other playstyle in those games. And I personally as a mainly open world pvper prefer above all to just have a huge playerbase in my MMO world.
@@xXSinForLifeXx a question i had for some time bout that. Is there anything stopping griefers from bringing a few lowest lvl chars to die to aoe of someone to corrupt em?
@@xXSinForLifeXx well i asked cuz as far as i know AoC doesnt have opt-out option. AOE being toggle-able is a better step, but if we going to go to such lengths, why not have optout or PvE only servers?
I think PvP should always be about control as opposed to focusing on loot. If your PvP system focuses on loot, aka a full loot system (which ashes will not have) then the PvP will inevitably devolve into meaningless griefing to make a quick buck. With the corruption system (if and only if it works as intended) and the lack of a full loot PvP system I think this will mitigate griefing for the most part and more encourage PvP to be focused on controlling a certain area such as a profitable world boss.
The only issue I have is the XP lost on death. It does nothing to make the game better. Leave that in the past. Hopefully these systems can get fined tuned in the alpha and beta tests.
I agree with this comment almost 100%. I just think XP loss on death paired with corruption system helps regulate it better. Nothing sucks more than trying to gank a group out of a zone to be whipped and lose 3 days of grinding XP for that attempt.
They just need to make it that if you are purple or red you lose 4% and 10% (or other values) xp on death + items drop and the world PvP is self regulated. You have to make a risk/reward on every action.
What? Xp loss makes it infinetly better. Gives death meaning
As a casual with limited time to play per day and interest in the game, if I experience griefing - I am out. I experience enough stress at work, I do not need that shit in my spare time when I want to relax and have fun. Toggle for pvp participation should be the norm - if you don't want to pvp then you are not forced into it.
This is kinda funny because, I played Lineage 2 for a while myself and experienced the open PvP system the same as this guy did. However, even considering that, the most pvp griefing I've ever experienced happened in Stranglethorne Vale and Hellfire Peninsula. Lineage 2 never came close to that. L2's biggest problem were the chinese gold farmers who just wanted to lock down areas for themselves and would kill you if you interfered. The generic degenerate griefers never lasted long cuz they'd get swarmed themselves.
Only problem with the "they will get swarmed themselves" is that this is the modern era. They will be super geared players griefing with MORE super geared players.
even better then they will drop their gear while doing so
@@shawnburs601 they won’t even be able to get that organized nor in large numbers, when the legions of bounty hunter coalitions will be after even just one player.
@@tcan225 Read about Devilsaur mafia in WoW. It never happend in WoW back in 2004, but it happend in 2019. Gamers wont play the game the same way as people did 20 years ago.
@@shawnburs601 RF Online a PVP Centric game from 2004 Got this fixed.A Geared griefer gets wrecked by another geared Guildmate/Player for being assholes the things Asmond and that other streamer are worried about, got taken cared of by other geared players protecting the weak.
Why Asmon need to compare AoC to WoW world PvP? You don't even lose shit when you die in WoW. All those softcore MMO players come and try to make Ashes another casual, easy to stream, half afk game that you can play with one hand in cheetos. Ashes was never meant to be a game for everyone but one with a risk vs reward system. It's not like it'll be some harcore PvP either with all players randomly killing each other. MMOs are played way different when it actually matters if you die.
Take for example Tibia, where if you would die with the equivalent to "red name" you would lose all your eq and 2~lvls. And the game was great before it became p2w. Because ppl don't just randomly kill each other when death matters. It's actually less toxic than PvE servers cuz ppl respect each other if you can get hunted and lose weeks worth of gear. If you're worried of pk just join a guild that doesn't go to wars with another or don't be a dickhead, get some skill and you'll be fine. Players nowadays cry so much whenever they can die in a game even tho they don't lose much, I really hate it.
Also Steven used to play Lineage 2, I'm sure he know most flaws of PvP and working on a system that will eliminate those.
Archeage is what made Steve start AOC. I was a member of Steve's guild in Archeage and remember him talking about it. I bet the PVP will work like Archeage, where the areas have a time for open world pvp and a peace time where there is no pvp.
no probably not. The pvp system is from l2, so it will be always be an option to start a pvp
@@reltfahcsnessiw The game is years away, Lineage 2 model doesn't work for today's MMO'S unfortunately. I was a big L2 fan and played it at launch. I know Steve had a guild in L2 but I joined them in Archeage. Steve is smart, im sure he knows that model won't give him the returns he needs or want. Archeage model is the best of both worlds I believe.
I actually LOVE the idea of being able to have a pvp scenario in a dungeon. Its super fun in Albion. Especially if you can cap the amount of people in a dungeon. It really adds value to what youre doing, strategy, and a sense of adventure. I get that people who want to solely PVE will not like that... but I think this is where the community is divided. There can't be an MMO that fits all scenario. Only way you can have a great pvp oriented MMO is if you go all the way with PVP MMO and cater to that. Only way youre going to have an amazing PVE MMO is if you go all the way with it. Sure you can have a bit of content for the opposite side here and there. But the sandbox PVP MMO experience is a unique one that is awesome. New World shouldve just went all the way with it. Albion does it with incredible MMO game design. If Ashes wants to do this, they need to go all the way. If they dont want to do it, don't implement a half assed version of it and just focus on PVE experiences.
Couldn't agree more. Albion is an amazing game, and it's a mmo with great focus on PVP. The solo experience is nice, and the group experience, when in a good guild, is even better!
the game will suffer from the same problems that most open PVP games suffer from the Wolves hunt the Sheep eventually the Sheep get tired of getting hunted and quit then the Wolves hunt the Lesser wolves who then get tired of it and quit and this cycle just continues until the population drops to very low numbers.
People with lives outside of games will just not waste time playing this. I did the Lineage 2 experience so many years ago. It got boring very quickly. I went back to play something I wasn't wasting time on.
Lineage 2 is one of the biggest mmos ever. How are you guys dismissing that??
In a book about a full dive MMO, I read that in one of them, they had a system where you could call an admin which was a literal God-powers character that could teleport to your location. And using basic logic, you would appeal your case as to get something bad to stop happening, but if you called an admin for a dumb reason or to mess around/no bad thing was happening that needed him, you would get punished instead. Such a neat idea :P Every griefing situation here could be prevented that way mostly
I think manually dealing with griefers on a case by case basis is definitely the most effective way to handle this sort of stuff. The big problem with this is that it's really labor intensive on the part of the developer. I suppose the workload of doing it might lessen over time, like how when asmon started FFXIV the devs were able to stop people from griefing him by being really hands-on, but that was a really high profile case and I think it would be much harder to protect a wider amount of players
No because the admins will be multicolored hair people who make emotional based decisions.
Reporting bugs and players becomes part of the lore. Nice.
You are right about people not wanting to waste time. I'm older now with job/family ect. ect. It is not like some other player 'won' if I quit. Quitting a game is as easy as choosing one fast food place over another because the line was shorter. If when I log in I'm not very quickly having fun and enjoying the game then I'm out. It's simple.
Yeah I don't understand why everyone thinks an MMO needs to have PvP. As we've seen by example time and time again, all people do is grief others and waste their time. I think it's funny people call the ones that play PvE "care bears" when they're the ones ruining the game and giving themselves a bad name. They could make Ashes of Creation have PvP similar to FF14 where it's a completely separate instance and game mode or at the very least, have it toggleable in the open world. It's really not that hard to manage.
What I love about PvP in MMOs is the immersion and complexity you could get in compared to a MOBA. That's why I really would love to have a decent PvP focussed MMO. But I know it is so complex that it is really diificult to pull that of.
My idea for the PvP in Ashes of Creation would be: have a toggle for PvP which works at most places. There are some places tho you are forced to go PvP mode like in a caravan escort mission or on the ocean. Fact is that it doesn't make sense when there wasn't forced PvP in some situations.
My own idea is that PvP and PvE players alike can help making the own node big. While PvPers can defend the own node or transport special goods, PvE players can farm specific dungeons to get special material which is needed for the PvPers to get good equipment for an example. An environment where both kind of players can support each other to reach the same big goal together. Maybe players could be able to place super powerful guards in front of a dungeon which don't let in players who don't belong to the node, except when there is no one in there AND they pay a fee to the nodes owners.
I feel like there is quite some potential to prevent griefing and even make a good feature out of the prevention at many places. But for sure I feel like oceans and escorts should force players into PvP mode, aswell as some world bosses maybe
If they use a pvp system similar to Lineage 2, you will think long and hard when you want to kill someone, that's better than WoW.
This is not bullying, this is a clan war ..... you can see that the ones that killed the guy didn't turn purple or red. 12:58
I think a system like that of Albion Online works really well. PVE players and gatherers are rewarded because of higher prices of resources. Pvp is rewarded by gear drops. Only wear what you are willing to lose. Economy is mostly controlled by the players. It has 3 types of zones mainly outside of tutorial(blue) areas:
Yellow (almost entirely pve only/ faction pvp, beginner area) don't lose gear on death
Red ( gankers/ pvpers have to flag to start combat to fight non flagged people, mid-high tier area faction Pvp) lose gear on death
Black (always flagged, highest tier areas) Lose gear on death
Reputation system works fairly well as the more you flag for pvp and attack non flagged players the more regions you are locked out of increase ( first locked out blue -> yellow -> red-> until you are forced to stay in black zones till you pve enough or the rep decreases over time.
Arena modes, for the more small group pvp
They have the roads of Avalon for a randomizing labyrinth of maps for different group sizes(it has different color portals connecting that only allow so many people through at once)
17:39.
I had one of those quit moments when I played BDO many years ago. At like level 20 you got PvP flagged and you could not opt out of it. Enjoyable activities like fishing and lifeskills like logging and running trade caravans became impossible to do. I got ambushed so many times when I was just out doing nothing in the forest. There were so many deaths. I still remember the moment I quit the game for good. I was out riding around with my horse and cart just gathering materials when I got attacked by a big warrior dude. I tried to outrun him but he just used some kind of charge agility to run after me on my horse and cart. He killed me and my horse and cart for the last time. I just did an ALT+F4 and closed the game forever.
in archeage u can kill anyone at any time (even in cities) and the game worked fine. While fishing, there were cities with rivers or by the sea with npc guards that one shot anyone trying to fight.. just leave afk near one of those and u fine. This also give the world some realness, otherwise the game became a lot of random double accounts on afk farming some stuff... while u are afk u have the risk of being killed and lose someshit. Its nice to say that normaly to become PK is not good at all, hardly is worth it.
Classic WoW needs faction server caps. Would solve the PvP servers.
Open world pvp I don't think will ever succeed.
On the one hand if you penalize the people being trolls there's no reason for them to stop. They'll just game the system and get away with it. As mentioned, Perma-Reds who are geared to the 9s and able to kill nearly anything with a bot fed meta-build.
The opposite side is to have bounties of game-breaking proportions to encourage people to hunt down PKers and join 'white' guilds.
The real problem though is every solution anyone has ever come up with either causes more problems or leaves gaps that can be exploited, and there's no way around that.
I’ve never seen so many videos about a game that no one has played lmao
there was an alpha a while back
there was an alpha that people played,including asmon
@@blkwng when will does the game come out?
@@aligenc659 maybe 2025.
@@roky7772 I was exaggerating.
For anyone that doesn't know him, Lucky Ghost for a long time was primarily an ESO content creator. He like a lot of other ESO creators that do PvE (and occasionally PvP) is branching out more into other MMOs right now after a few weird patches
ESO PvP has the ability to be great. ZoS doesn't care about the PvP
Thanks for the context!
Maybe the solution might be to make an option to be in more guilds in the same time, like in ESO. Make different guild types. If you CHOOSE to join a PVP guild, the settings within the guild should also have a war button like in Lineage and you should be able to pvp those players from wars. In that case you are not able to attack players who dicede to not enter such pvp type guild and enjoy the content without any harrasment. If you want to try pvp, you join such clan, who already has declared wars and find people from enemy guild to open world pvp them. These fights will not affect people who there near them because they have nothing to do with the conflint they have between each other. Being in pvp clan should have also unique content. Also with caravan system you should able to enjoy pvp in some limited way without joining any clan.
I know it's not the best example, but it's based on archeage and the open pvp isn't that open, there are designated areas/events, and yes they are needed to progress, but there's a peace/war system where u can be safe or not safe, and there's "mats" on the line so there's risk/reward, like honor/boosted drop rate/bossted xp and things like, imo that system is well designed for both who like and don't like the always open pvp.
Edit: It all depends on how much each event is needed and how good some drop are, so if it's possible to progress without certain event and it's just for fun but with good drops that makes people want to do it, we just need to wait to see how it plays out.
Edit 2: To end, guilds/groups of people shouldn't be able to do certain events on their own, what i mean is to be needed to include a bigger raid/nation or the faction to cooperate to be able or rewarding to beat events so for it to be a win win situation and incentivate the coop, but again that depends on people and they are the problem, so it's very hard to predict what's going to happen and might be completely different in each server.
Steven was a guild leader in Archeage and AoC is basically his love child of Lineage 2 and Archeage which both heavily inspired it so I think we'll see a lot of systems from AA but more fleshed out and with more thought and care put in to it unlike *cough* Trion.....
@@Stygiophobic yeah that's true, lots of systems are similar but with inovation, really good. Still believe that AA open pvp was really good with those limitations. Just needs the testing.
Easy solution:
Step 1) Task the Developers to play like PvEers (given the objective of avoiding PvP combat and completing tasks out in the world)
Step 2) Task the game-testers to play with the goal of ruining those Devs' gameplay experience (act like a hardcore PvP guild)
Step 3) Repeat this testing format every week until launch
As someone who played DAoC for most of my life I REALLY like PvP. I do not however, enjoy getting ganked while leveling, I think Archage's system was a good medium for ALMOST always on PvP. By making it toggle with a penalty to griefing by wasting their time.
There is a huge difference between the playerbase of a very expensive paid alpha and the playerbase of a publically available game. In general, the more people pay for something, the more grateful they are (they have to justify the purchase in their mind). People who do get a game for free are usually the most critical of it, and also play the game in the most toxic ways. It is the opposite one might expect...
Yeah had this experience a few times with alpha/beta testers who are generally a good bunch then the f2p will come in and completely wreck the community. Lost ark is the last example I can think of lol.
MMO with PVP on all the time, the lot of you don't know what you're missing- check out Tibia back in the day. It was great for community building. Guilds formed, guild wars started, player driven bounties, drama, man I could go on the amount of gameplay it provided. You see crisis is something most people don't want, but really do need in order to get the satisfaction later on.
Tibia was in my mind the best MMORPG of all time .
And that is what MMO's are all about player interaction and player-driven content
I really like this documentary about tibia. It shows exactly how to create a strong foundation for an MMO.
@@Auxius. where can I find the documentary
@@lilramennoodle8056 Tibia History: Antica - The Ancient Years, if you can get past the cringy narration, it really has some meaningful things to say :)
If you give players the ability to grief other players they will. We all know there is a section of people who play games to ruin others experience.
For me ,when these things are present in a game I'm out.
I just don't want to be forced to PvP. They should at least offer PvE servers.
I've always felt this game will have more in common with games like Eve Online and Archeage where the inherent danger of the World is a big driving force that will set the tone for the whole game. You have to go into the game with a different mindset and plan ahead for if you might get killed. The risk/reward and checks n' balances is what is supposed to set the game apart from current fantasy genre type games. You are 100% correct, griefing will play a part in this game but only time will tell if the population as a whole sees most of the World PvP as griefing or just how AoC works. I personally like PvP driven games, the anxiety some people have while playing this type of game causes them frustration, to me is what makes the game exciting. The truth is such games do tend to have a smaller niche player base. We haven't had a good modern Fantasy MMO that attempts to try to break this mold so I'm glad AoC is giving it a try. It's very possible it could be just like Eve Online where it has only 30k people that play it. I can only hope that a different style of MMO that hundreds of thousands of people can enjoy that isn't a theme-park style MMO will change peoples concept of what an MMO can be thereby improving the genre.
When I played DC Universe Online on the PvP servers questing areas would be PvP warzones to get control over the area and mob spawns. Also if groups got together to troll other players an army of opponents usually came to defend.
I had healing electrical powers and turned the tides in quite a few skirmishes in the open world.
me to ;) i had BIG DIK specc i regularly took on 5 or 20 people.
I have no idea what you just said.....nerd
Gotta say asmon not skipping ads is very kind to the youtuber.
Haven’t played an mmo before but I was thinking about it and maybe players that have red flags are banned from cities where “official” merchants and only have access to black markets that offer much higher prices for items. Additionally, rewards from quests given by npcs inside cities could be held in a “storage” or something until the red status wears off, thus barring players from receiving their quest rewards for a certain period of time or potentially impeding them from completing these quests.
Most people want to play a game with others, pvp can ruin that
I think I remember Warhammer Online having the best open world PvP ever. It actually evened the playing field by increasing your level and stats to be mostly the same as everyone else when you entered a PvP zone.
Yeah lower levels got boosted and higher levels turned in to a chicken
@@AlexanderBC42 If i'm not entirely wrong. Age of reckoning sadly had awfull garbage tier launch which kinda doomed the game. I played it close to when servers got shutdown and i've played it since on a private server. Personally for me it still has the most fun, engaging and rewarding PvP in MMOs. The game actually made me want to play PvP
and it died.
Asmon never addresses the thing I loved the most in the flagging system (in Lineage 2 specifically) was how it affected farming. Huge places were taken by multiple small groups and solo players, similar gears, and new arrivals often tested whom could they relocate. We had much more fair fights in L2, than griefers.
I remember heavy griefing in wow, archeage, aion, tera... Lineage 2 was punishing in many ways, but probably due to that, direct griefing was less common imo, I had many random fights with respectful people, average L2 players took a beating with dignity, didn't go back griefing.
Point is, I don't think the majority of open world pvpers are morons. It does open up griefing, but heavy punishment (item drops) will keep it at bay imo. Still agree with the pve server option, it really can't hurt to have both. (Toggle would be pointless I think, would make world bosses a dps check instead of a bloodbath, there must be a pvp version)
linesge2 h5 and prior was the best pvp I've ever experienced. especially high karma ppl that dropped there gear 😅
@@AlexanderBC42 I mean L2 is dead for many reasons, pvp isn't one of them. That's what kept it going for a while, it literally had nothing else to offer.
@@AlexanderBC42 it's dead cause they went to f2p model and never could control the bots
I used to pull flying world bosses with aoe skills in town areas (because guards could not attack them), where people usually stayed AFK in Perfect world. Fun wipes, fun times! 🙂
yeah. Qin Tomb General pulls to City of Swords or just nearby village. bring back memories
I did that myself in another game.
I dragged a rather tough mob to the region's spawn point; I was strong enough to survive 2 hits at most at the time.
It did an AoE attack that would kill most of the noobs, and so it basically spawn killed everyone there, and people would get stuck in a loop of spawning and getting killed frequently enough for it to not de-aggro.
It killed me as much as the rest of the noobs, but it was hilarious.
Calling people who defend griefers stupid just won my subscrpition. I think you're so right about that.
1:10:19
Asmongold "They're fucking morons man"
Chatter : "You're choosing the worst people on purpose!"
Asmongold : "Ok, let's choose you!" 🤣
I use to play this one korean mmo called AION that had open world pvp. It was incredibly fun to play a powerful class and try to pick off people from other faction while they moved around to do various things.
twink stealth class lvl 30 with abyss gear in morheim, i remember that and it was a lot of fun ...
@@blastersekla i had an asmodian sorc so my 4k dp was basically a 1 shot kill spell. you could fly over certain places and just throw one down on a high rank player and collect the honor lol good times
True, but doing big ganks (zerg) is retarded and made players leave tge game until it died.. didn't enjoy those ganks frim either sides.. but when big groups met for pvp, it was hella fun :)
I have to agree that the majority of players will not like pvp only mmo's. I think the best alternatives would be #1 Have a pvp toggle on/off like new world and maybe add a small incentive to have it toggled on. #2 Have dedicated pvp or pve servers. #3 Have the majority of the world pve but have zones or sections of zones that are pvp when you enter the area and the caravans and ships stay pvp.
well pvp only mmo is BS why? because it's worse than real world as there is no police, no consequences, only grief. Who with two mind cells would play something like that? Only the people who are afraid to do those things in real life.
Cant wait til this game fully release to explore the whole map abolute love the look on this game. only wish they show more videos of the characters. want dwarf gameplay
I was just thinking about Ashes but now that I know it is always PvP... They just lost me.
The amounts of insults, and threats I got, because I just pked everyone I could in old Archeage, tells me that the only ones who enjoy unavoidable open world PvP are sadistic assholes like I used to be in games, which is definitely a minority :')
Isn't it supposed to be the spiritual successor of Archeage? If so, there's a lot more to it than just PvP, like the court system, the fact factions can't easily meet each other and killing your own faction is a Crime, safe zones, etc
More Lineage 2. No factions, no court system, no safe zones though I'm not opposed to some existing.
yes, his video doesnt even adress all these saveguards . . . . i belive. . .
This is just my opinion, but the reason I liked and played an MMO like GW2 is because I didn't have to worry about doing PvP unless I actively opted into it. I understand PvP has a role to play, it's just, for me, I enjoy PvE 99% of the time and that's all I look for. I understand others really like PvP and that's all they do, and I totally get that, no problem.
You can still like GW2, it still exist.
the problem is with PVE first mmo's is PVP never gets focused. Balance patches and all the devs just work on pve content and like GW2 the PvP game modes get no updates or protected from pve related balances.
@@JonBondgsr Lol, true, I just stopped playing MMO's overall. I haven't logged into GW2 in about a year.
@@sokebuno That's fair, that does happen. It sometimes is very difficult to find the right balance needed to preserve the game.
Asmon is so right about this, I get limited time to play after work and gym/riding my bike and if that time is wasted by some guy that has nothing better to do, I just move on, there is no way in Hell I am going to play something that even 15 mins some guy can waste. Even if I have the time (and I don't) I sure as Hell don't have the patience to be frustrated by some guy (I do that enough at work).
Here's my solution. Option in pvp and have it off at the start, and let people know how to turn it on and off. Also give incentive to turn it on. Like a 10% increase to xp gain while leveling and when at max level that turns into a 1% increase to drop chances. If you turn it on you get better rewarded but at the same time you are open to another player griefing you. IDK if dungeons will be instanced either but they should be, or at the very least do what RS does and make it so instances are bought with currency but there is a free public instance.
" let me tell you why you won't like this mmo. "
2 BUT YOU'LL LOVE THE MMO WORLD OF RAID SHADOW LEGENDS THAT I DEFINITELY PLAY EVERYDAY!
Eve online done well with open pvp, and it's great. risk and reward EVERYWHERE and you don't get constant pvp on you (because of risk and reward). The amount you need to spend to kill another player can vary from no loss to a huge loss if it doesn't pay off. That game done it well so it can work well, people just need to get used to it (and participate) as everyone is in an even playing field. That was until you could pay 2 win of course...
An Ashes video that's not made by Narc. *gasp!!*
When you watch stuff like Overlord or SAO, do you think those worlds are PVP or PVE? Would you watch those shows if the characters wouldn´t have the risk of being attacked or dying?
I believe that possibility adds great immersion and memorable moments to fantasy worlds. Of course the rules and systems behind the game should be absolutely updated from those in 2003. But just giving up by saying "make it pve" or "have a pve toggle option" holds back the great potential the mmo genre has.
@@donyates7300 First off all, not agreeing with a game feature does not make someone toxic. Second, labeling people over a opinion is not wise move.
I refuse to play a game with non optional pvp mixed with PvE. Trolls are everywhere and if I can't farm for gear then the game isn't worth even trying.
PvP mmos will keep failing over and over because PvP developers and hardcore PvP fans don't seem to understand that PvPers and PvEers play mmos for completely different reasons. They're not adjacent at all, and you will never succeed in just "nudging" PvEers towards PvP by making it "worth it" or whatever, they don't want to play it at all since they don't find it fun.
I've played over 50 mmos by now and every single PvP game has failed to do their whole "we're a game for everyone!!!11" type nonsense because they just don't understand how different PvPers and PvEers are. There's no way of making a good game for both groups of players and even trying to ends up creating a "meh" game for both groups instead of making a good game for one or the other.
If you're a hardcore PvE player who's all about achievements (XP, levels, items, titles, completions etc) open world PvP goes directly against your very reason for playing the game in the first place. It's anti-achievement as you're likely to lose items and/or progress. There's simply no reason to even play the game then as it removed your very reason for playing mmos.
The hardcore PvP players who really want an open world PvP game with full loot etc. are a tiny, tiny group of people, and they simply can't keep a game running on their own. They need PvEers to play so the game actually makes money, so they have targets to kill etc. but they will leave when they find out there's nothing in the game for them, then the worst of the PvPers will suddenly become fodder for the better PvPers and they quit as well, as no one (including self-proclaimed PvPers) actually enjoys being at the bottom of the hierarchy, and then the game just dies like all the other PvP mmos.
If you want fast-paced, balanced and skill-based PvP, mmos simply aren't your game genre. I play FPS games for that fix, and then I'll play mmos for the achievements, grouping, socializing, exploring etc. fix.
I agree completely with Asmon that the only hope for a "PvP mmo" is to make it entirely optional, and then the question becomes "Is it really a PvP mmo at all?". You're still going to lose the PvEers funding the entire thing if you "incentivize" them doing PvP by putting all the high level crafting materials in PvP zones or whatever as well. They do not want to PvP at all, there's nothing you can do to change that. They simply do not enjoy that aspect so why would they do it? Why pay for a game, log on, spend time on it etc. if you don't enjoy it?
For whatever reason PvP fans just don't seem to understand that PvEers play the games for entirely different reasons than them, it's not that "they just haven't tried good PvP!!1" or whatever, it's that they don't enjoy it and simply enjoy different things than PvPers. Trying to "force" or "nudge" them to do PvP has been tried tens of time, and it has failed repeatedly. They do not enjoy what you enjoy, there's nothing you can do about that.
If I could be bothered to write such long comments, I'd say exactly this. Well done, Sir!
I loved Ultima Online when it had unrestricted PvP. I played on the Pacific server and was part of KGB (Knights of Glory and Beer!). It was the most enjoyable MMO experience of my life. I didn't feel like my time was wasted when we clashed with other players because that was the game. The environment was just a backdrop and not the reason we played.
This is an eye opener. I'm very excited for Ashes of Creation, but I will 100% quit if this comes true. I expect the majority to do the same. This makes me sad. :(
Grow some balls first of all, and second of all if you have such a fragile ego, just don't join from the begining.
@@AlexOltyan You must be one of those trash pvp players that can't cut it in games outside of MMOs that Asmondgold mentioned. Got it.
@@aaronmoran3808 Wow, you destroyed him so hard he just erased his comment LMAO
Idk personaly it sounds fun to be able to be the bad guy
Or trying to make strategies to defend yourself againts bad guys.
I think they just have to find a way to make it balance
it sounds fun but it really isnt, it wont always be 1v1s, pretty often you'll likely have to 1v2 people that will obviously almost always end in you dying because they're a group
imo there's nothing fun about someone being able to make your experience worse by killing you and stealing your quest mobs etc.
kinda impossible to find a balance there
@@Saiku no idea what a carebear is, I play on PvP servers, I just dont enjoy getting killed while questing
i don't get why people even play MMO when all they wnat to do is grind pve or play SOLO,
for Solo you have single player RPG,
for PVE dungeons you have games like Lost ark where there is no competition since there is no open world pvp
The issue is the big focus is targeted serial killing is going to be heavily punished as we know so far. But you know everyone in your guild assassinating the same guy on the same on the first of every month is pretty un-punishing
@@egbert5871 yeah but i think finding way to stop the the thief is also pretty fun
Kinda becomes more competitive and ruthless
Idk makes it more exciting to me
But it also make sense that a lot of people dont find it fun
most of the players base just want a chill game
"New world was ruined by it's PVP."
Even though Asmon didn't say that, he was referring to their lack of travel options. New World on a fundamental level WAS ruined by its PVP.
They initially planned on making a "Rust Clone" sort of game where you built bases and raided other people. But many a game has tried and failed to copy Rust, and even Rust is a toxic shithole only sustained by people momentarily returning to the game only to lose everything they spent days building overnight while they were sleeping.
Then they switched to make a Hardcore PVP MMO where all actions were determined and revolved around PVP. But then they did their closed testing and realised that nobody enjoyed that experience, so in the last year or two of development they completely redid their game from the foundation to become a pseudo-themepark MMO with Runescape-esque professions. Leading to what was released. A nice looking, unifinished, incredibly superficial grindfest with barely any content.
Because so much development time was wasted making a Hardcore Full-Loot PVP sandbox, what ended up being released wasn't up to the standard's they're capable of creating.
22:50 - That sounds an awful lot like cancel culture.
Kind of funny that there is not a single L2 veteran that can explain Asmon how PVP should work and look like.
May gaming reach a new golden age soon.
Why do you guys care. Just play what you like. Why does a game need to be popular?
Spring 2025. Not meming. I honestly think that's when it will release and I'm excited.
202025 yes
There s so many downsides to kill someone that this will not be a problem. Take archeage, lineage etc for example...
"People are going to pull mobs onto your group and wipe you on the boss fight"...
...
That's why you clear the trash...
...
The trash wasn't there to waste your time, it's there to give other teams a turn, if you cant kill the boss before the trash respawns, you failed.
@@gerbo8018 no because its the trash with long leash range, not the boss.. bosses also usually have zones that you cant exit after entering the fight
@@gerbo8018 Keeping the trash cleared implies that you spent time away from the boss, hence giving a turn to another team.. cmon man
@@gerbo8018 Where did i contradict myself?
@@gerbo8018 WHAT???
My entire premise was centered around respawns..
Respawn timer of trash IS the time you have to kill the boss before the next team has the opportunity to wipe you and have their turn.
Jesus christ..
@@gerbo8018 Lmao wtf are you talking about, what game has trash respawning faster than you can clear it???
The only trash packs that matter for boss sharing are the ones within leash range of the boss because those are the ones a team uses to wipe another team. so the respawn timer of those trash packs are essentially a pvp centric soft-enrage timer.
It's pretty simple..
You have X amount of time to kill the boss before another team is able to intervene, so everyone gets a turn and cant be blocked infinitely.
Obviously the X time would be a fair amount of time based on how long the devs want the fight to last.
As long as they stay with the fan service.. Like lineages that inspiring them
It will be a good game and fan service will be an additional + for us to have
Especially with those detail boba slider 😏
Ashes of Creation looks really great so far and maybe separate server for PvE would be enough but Asmon might be right that wait for beta and see what happens, maybe let people try it on beta for free to test how it goes and then make some changes if necessery. When players will start to leave the game, its too late to change anything. I want this game to be great to because that would give me something to play again but only time will tell.
I usually agree with Asmon but I don't love this take. I understand it's a different situations since New World basically had no PvE content in Beta but releasing "as is" is going to cause a similar situation where they are scrambling to pivot because the Beta exposed the massive flaws in the PvP content. Asmon spent the whole video agreeing that it's a bad system to turn around and say but they should go ahead and release that system anyway.
Maybe they find some kind of miracle workaround but it's doubtful given all the games that have tried and failed to do just that. Open world PvP is just not something that works in MMO's because of the time investment vs how fast you can lose the things you got from that investment.
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getting invaded in Elden Ring was great once I was geared up so hard that I was nearly unkillable
Forced, full-on PvP has worked so well for.......
Lets be honest asmon dont want open pvp bc he's a streamer, If you played archage which is the main inspiration of Ashes u know all these arguments are bullshit.
Im excited for the game ..
It feels like RF online vibes.. my favorite game of all time..
I played Lineage for 12 years since the open beta quit after F2P garbage. Griefing was real like any mmo, but people PKing over a leveling spot was so rare.. There has to be a reason or you need to piss someone off real bad for them to consider going red on you. The PvP system was not the issue and AoC will even have a bumped up risk for going red.
Training mobs onto your group was the only valid example this video pointed out.. Which c'mon you think Steven aint got a fix for that?
played on firemaw eu for my horde characters. it is now all alliance. played on whitemane US for my alliance characters, it is now all horde XD
World PVP is played by a small subset of a community, forcing on everyone will not help this game, I know a lot of people that would try it if it had PVE servers.. Even worse if everything is open and not instanced.
Anarchy Online train is one of the many reason that game dungeon are annoying to do.
The vast majority of MMO players are solo players. They want also the possibility of group content and some other perks of interaction with other players but none of them are going to enjoy being camped and killed on a regular basis. If they launch the game as they intend to, it is simply doomed.
I started in Shadowbane and Eve Online. Nothing balanced in those games. The biggest complaints I have are already addressed, ie, full loot, no griefing system, no system to hunt down griefers. In the above games, our guild/corp had to enforce the anit-griefing. Which is actually kinda fun for a while, but to do it full time is tiring. I would also prefer PvP servers and PvP Lite servers. The game isn't designed for PvE only.
If you played Lineage2 at its prime you would understand what it means to have open PvP, when you lose 4% for each death (unless cardinal with high rez% or bless rez) and of that 4% on lvl 78 (back on c4 you took like 3 days to get) :)
Grobulus is also an RP server as well as a pvp server so that is why it didn’t die and it has several youtubers who play on there which kinda keep it alive.
Tibia has an amazing frag system for PvP. In this game no high level player EVER attack low level players for no reason. Look it up. Killing 3 players in a day, 5 players in a week or 10 players in a months will give you a red skull for a month. Red skull means you drop all items on death and you pretty much can't play this character for a month. If a group of players attack a player, 2 people score a frag: highest damage person and the guy who last-hitted the target.
If you are level 50 and some level 150 runs by, he will never attack you or even consider it. People care for their frags and will not "waste a frag" on some low level.
This is combined with an ability to check a box that makes you not initialize pvp unwillingly, so you can AOE mobs that someone else lured on you - you don't deal damage to that player and you don't become an aggressor.