Who really wants change when you can have hope and warm fuzzy sentiment? That's the story of American protest movements. Peace, love, and warm fuzzy sentiment.
@guatahala somewhere between public & private space, somewhere between the right to do & the right to NOT have done unto you, theres a line that needs to be discussed. Anarchism is good, but part of that is due to it not precluding agreement between individuals into groups.. and in some ways, state monopolization of violence is bad. So this is a seriously deep question. Especially when you're asking the masses. Ergo, I think we need to keep some simple rules until can enact better.
@quietthomas For your first reply: I don't see what point you're trying to make. Could you explain further? For your second: The question of whether he would have is largely irrelevant. The point is that he clearly intended to make those people think that he would, as a method of controlling their behaviour. It's the same as putting a gun to someone's head, or, to use a less dramatic example, verbally threatening to fuck them up if they don't obey. To me, that's obviously violence.
@quietthomas Yeah, I do. One is a threat of injury if people don't do what the person swinging the pole wants, the other is dammage to a lifeless object. One is an attempt to control the bodies of other people by the threat of injury, the other is like tearing a piece of paper.
@supreme704 They're not protecting the stuff, they're protecting the movement's ethos and penchant for creativity. Have you not noticed that this movement is using the Situationalist International technique of spectacle to it's advantage? Besides, if you yourself use shops - then maybe that's enough. Personally I'm glad to see creativity and context is not lost on the movement.
@Whitney1983smitH if you hurt the business of a person who has been locked into the capitalist system as well (ie loans, trying to survive in the system ect), if you hurt a business that you yourself use (or might), if you hurt the image of a positive, creative movement, and make it repugnant to growth and slow revolutionary possibilities... then aren't you hurting the people?
@guatahala also, you're assuming the guy telling everyone to be peaceful and creative WOULD have actually hit a human being. Pre-crime? Or do you believe the treat of violence is worse than an attempt at violence? P.S I understand your placing primacy on human suffering, I agree with this, and in a way, I disagree with both parties in the video. Which I think is a reasonable stance.
@quietthomas That's the thing though. It wasn't him 'vs' them. They weren't attacking him. It was just him going after them. Also, people using black bloc tactics aren't a singular organisation with the same goals and automatic solidarity with each other. No one's giving orders or obliged to do what everyone else is, so there's no guarantee (or even likelihood) of a similar collective response to something. Ballsy and stupid and endangering. Also rights discourse is silly.
@anarcrustie banks serve have cafe seating and no-smoking signs now? I think your point is actually a poor inhumane, myopic and short-sighted rationalization. Perhaps you should clean up your thinking with a bit of empathy for those caught in the middle of capitalism (from business owners in debt, to the people they provide services to, even if some does, for now, go to banks). Also, how do you live without a bank? Which credit union to you use (if any) and why?
@guatahala So you're not going to take the power balance into account? Fuck me man, 50 black bloc vs one guy with a stick (he got off them). Who do you think would win? 50 v 1? The gun example is a good example of a fucked up power balance... and I tell you, the stick ain't the gun. The 50 is. Take that into account. Ballsy move for his beliefs. Vs 50 guys in black feeling threatened? Come on. As for my other point, it was all hobbesian - rousseauian collective rights vs individual.
I love how the nonviolent advocates are the ones being violent. PROPERTY DESTRUCTION IS NOT VIOLENCE
Who really wants change when you can have hope and warm fuzzy sentiment? That's the story of American protest movements. Peace, love, and warm fuzzy sentiment.
@guatahala somewhere between public & private space, somewhere between the right to do & the right to NOT have done unto you, theres a line that needs to be discussed. Anarchism is good, but part of that is due to it not precluding agreement between individuals into groups.. and in some ways, state monopolization of violence is bad. So this is a seriously deep question. Especially when you're asking the masses. Ergo, I think we need to keep some simple rules until can enact better.
@quietthomas
For your first reply: I don't see what point you're trying to make. Could you explain further?
For your second: The question of whether he would have is largely irrelevant. The point is that he clearly intended to make those people think that he would, as a method of controlling their behaviour. It's the same as putting a gun to someone's head, or, to use a less dramatic example, verbally threatening to fuck them up if they don't obey. To me, that's obviously violence.
@quietthomas
Yeah, I do. One is a threat of injury if people don't do what the person swinging the pole wants, the other is dammage to a lifeless object. One is an attempt to control the bodies of other people by the threat of injury, the other is like tearing a piece of paper.
The only person being violent here is the guy swinging a pole at people for breaking windows.
"We don't need to be violent!"
*Violently spins pvc pipe like a fucking maniac."
I'd love to see footage of the black bloc's footwear. I'm sure many of them are police officers.
...the cop was the guy in the yellow helmet and gloves right before this clip. black jedi is a sav
@supreme704 They're not protecting the stuff, they're protecting the movement's ethos and penchant for creativity. Have you not noticed that this movement is using the Situationalist International technique of spectacle to it's advantage? Besides, if you yourself use shops - then maybe that's enough. Personally I'm glad to see creativity and context is not lost on the movement.
@Whitney1983smitH if you hurt the business of a person who has been locked into the capitalist system as well (ie loans, trying to survive in the system ect), if you hurt a business that you yourself use (or might), if you hurt the image of a positive, creative movement, and make it repugnant to growth and slow revolutionary possibilities... then aren't you hurting the people?
What's the back song called???
Zedsdead eyes on fire
@crackaInDaTrunk Defending shops against violence is out of hand?
@guatahala also, you're assuming the guy telling everyone to be peaceful and creative WOULD have actually hit a human being. Pre-crime? Or do you believe the treat of violence is worse than an attempt at violence? P.S I understand your placing primacy on human suffering, I agree with this, and in a way, I disagree with both parties in the video. Which I think is a reasonable stance.
@quietthomas
That's the thing though. It wasn't him 'vs' them. They weren't attacking him. It was just him going after them. Also, people using black bloc tactics aren't a singular organisation with the same goals and automatic solidarity with each other. No one's giving orders or obliged to do what everyone else is, so there's no guarantee (or even likelihood) of a similar collective response to something. Ballsy and stupid and endangering. Also rights discourse is silly.
@guatahala so you think swinging a pole through the air is more violent than BREAKING a window? I think you are wrong.
@noiselyfe sorry, I read that as TROLL THE TROLL AT ALL TROLL! TROLLS BEFORE TROLLING!
black kids from east oakland> black block
How to make 5 minutes video with 30 seconds footage
@anarcrustie banks serve have cafe seating and no-smoking signs now? I think your point is actually a poor inhumane, myopic and short-sighted rationalization. Perhaps you should clean up your thinking with a bit of empathy for those caught in the middle of capitalism (from business owners in debt, to the people they provide services to, even if some does, for now, go to banks). Also, how do you live without a bank? Which credit union to you use (if any) and why?
@guatahala So you're not going to take the power balance into account? Fuck me man, 50 black bloc vs one guy with a stick (he got off them). Who do you think would win? 50 v 1? The gun example is a good example of a fucked up power balance... and I tell you, the stick ain't the gun. The 50 is. Take that into account. Ballsy move for his beliefs. Vs 50 guys in black feeling threatened? Come on. As for my other point, it was all hobbesian - rousseauian collective rights vs individual.
You show the same video over, and over and over again. FAIL.