On the Heavens 1.09 (Aristotle) spoken reconstructed Ancient Greek pronunciation
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ม.ค. 2019
- Book 1, Chapter 9 of Aristotle's work "On the Heavens". Read in reconstructed Ancient Greek, by Ioannis Stratakis. (with English and German subtitles)
(NB: This is a free stand-alone chapter, not a whole audiobook production)
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original & translated text + mp3 download at ancientgreek.eu/free/heavens.html
Am I the only one who finds this so relaxing ? It is like meditation.
No, you're not the only one...there is some sort of comfort, some indistinct familiarity, in the sound of the language- like a lullaby for adults
I'm reading while listening to this.
dude this is literally Age of Empires vibe.
Its unintentional ASMR for sure
Πολύ κοντά στα αραβικά η προφορά. Πράγμα πιο λογικό μάλλον για τους αρχαίους Έλληνες και τις σχέσεις τους με τους λαούς της ανατολικής Μεσογείου και Μεσοποταμίας
It's like Aristotle himself is giving us one of his lectures 💛
haha, trying to imagine how an "Aristotle" could have spoken, but I didn't really hear him talk :-D Thanks for listening!
It's also like his been resurrect from the Dead/Death.
@@paolosantiago3163 you mean he's dead?! Never seen that in the news! :-P
@@StavsT Why would the spiritus asper be used in native Greeks' writing then? Why would Greek be the only language in history to have its phonology literally never change? How would its phonology be so far from any nearby or related Indo-European languages of its period? I know Erasmian is wrong (this isn't Erasmian, by the way; not any reconstruction you don't like is Erasmian), but these are just silly criticisms.
@@josephrohrbach1588 I had mistaken this as Erasmian when I listened to the whole thing I realized it was different. On that note I wouldn't agree with H being used in the Greek language at all rather more of a Semitic hard H that's closer to the modern Greek but that's a minor point. This sounds as if there was no ionian influence so I would assume it's only possible to be attic before ionian influence.
I'm Lithuanian and I studied Ancient Greek since 2008 and had very little exposure to Modern Greek. I got used to pronouncing the written sounds the way that feels natural to me plus the specific sounds that aren't present in my language but have been posited for Ancient Greek (the aspirates φ, χ, θ, the geminate consonants, the retracted σ, to name a few).
I really like this pronunciation. It feels all but natural. When I see οι, I have a very hard time wrapping my head around the fact you have to pronounce it as "i" as they do in Modern Greek. I always pronounce it as "oi" I'm happy with that. In Lithuanian we have "ai" in corresponding positions in the nominal morphology and we do pronounce it as a diphthong.
Nom pl. masc.: λύκοι = vilkai, the "ai" is a true diphthong in Lithuanian
Dat. pl. masc.: λύκοις = vilkais (also: vilkams), the "ai" is again a true diphthong in Lithuanian
In some Lithuanian dialects, "ai" is reduced to the plain vowel long a, "ā" (vilkā, vilkās). In Latvian and Russian, it's reduced to "i" (vilki, vólki). In Latin, it had also been reduced to the plain "ī" already in the Antiquity (lupus - (nom. pl. masc.) lupī, (dat.-abl. pl. masc.) lupīs). In Modern Greek, it has also come to be pronounced as "i". Here we go. Through this small cross-linguistic comparison we have reconstructed a tiny fragment of the long and rich history of the development of Indo-European languages.
I think it's time for me to learn some Lithuanian!
I love this man's voice!
Thanks, I'll tell to my ...parents :-D
I do too!
Thanks Jim :-)
its a good voice, would have dialogues by the gymnasium under the balmy mediterranean sun with
It felt like middle aged aristotle teaching his students.
Truly beautiful. Of all the recordings I've ever found of ancient Greek, this one sounds (by far) the most natural and fluid. If you haven't already considered it, may I propose that you publish an audiobook? One of the most lacking resources in the ancient greek community is audio, and your voice is perfect for it!
thanks Roman ;-) there's a number of audiobooks on my website(s) ancientgreek.eu Or you mean something else?
@@Podium-arts Oh awesome! Thanks so much for sharing!! I only just discovered your video yesterday so I didn't realize.
It's Anglisized Greek we don't have the sound H we use a different sound. Children born abroad like me played a game of anglisizing the language to make it incomprehensible and it sounds exactly like this.
So you got by accident the ancient pronunciation :-D
@@Podium-arts lol no every greek child born abroad did this. It's not the ancient accent. All the Greeks are wrong but the Germans and Dutch know 🤣
Quite different sounding than modern Greek; very rounded, airy, fluid with hints of melody (musically speaking).
I'm trying, Rod. Fine that you like the rendition :-)
Modern Greek almost sounds like it has Slavic influence on it
@@Qwerty-ly8qk Absolute rubbish. Modern Greek sounds very similar to Spanish ... which has no Slavic-sounding element to it.
@@GeoBBB123 Greek sounds like a mixture of Spanish and some Slavic language to me. This ancient language on the other hand sounds much more like Spanish.
@@Qwerty-ly8qk Interesting. What elements of modern Greek lend it this Slavic tinge in your opinion? To me modern Greek has little if any of the 'harsh' qualities I associate with Slavic. It has none of the 'Sh', 'J', 'Zh', or 'Ch' sounds replete in Slavic languages. It strings an even balance of vowel and consonant sounds together -much like Spanish and quite unlike the Slavic languages in which consonants often 'pile up' on each other. To me the most 'Slavic' sounding non-Slavic language is actually Portuguese! The rendering of Ancient Greek in this video would better approximate Italian (although still far from it) in view of the evident musical tone; an occasional 'sing song' quality. This is quite unlike Spanish which, like modern Greek, has a dominant stress quality, a characteristic sibilance and similar vowel balance.
I am so very happy you exist. Χαιρετίσματα από την ξενιτιά.
Thanks Costas, κι ἡ ξενιτιά ἔχει τὰ καλά της ;-)
It's truely beautiful language
Thanks for listening 😊
Finally some normal pronunciation of ancient Greek! Hats off to thee sir, from a Greek himself who knows ancient Greek! You nailed the upsilon pronunciation and the spiritus asper on the vowels. That is a huge plus
Couldn't expect less from a godly name
@@Podium-arts Well, you nailed almost everything really. I can understand everything also, not only because of the vocabulary, but also because of the clear cut pronunciation, not like the Erasmian one!
@@Pan472 result of long research and then long practice... It had to ever be done in real
@@Podium-arts Ἐπί πλέον, εἶδον ὄτι ὁμιλεῖς τήν ἀρχαῖαν ἑλληνικήν γλῶσσαν γενικῶς. Ὁμιλεῖς κατά σύμπτωσιν καί τήν νέαν ἑλληνικήν; Γνῶθι ὄτι Ἕλλην εἰμί καί ὅτι δύναμαι ὁμιλεῖν ταύτην ἐπʹ ἴσης.
Σύ εἶ Ἕλλην;
Ἕλλην ἑλληνίζων :-D
This is so awesome! Not many recitations of prose in reconstructed pronunciation. Your prosody is incredible, you must be very familiar with these texts.
On a similar note, this pronunciation showed me very clearly how the pronunciation would shift, especially how the diphthong /oi/ could possibly go to /y/
thanks GE, indeed it helps if one is familiar with the content (as much as possible, since you can't hear this language spoken on the streets...)
Even though I would be lost without the subtitles, this language sounds so relaxing and I just want to listen to it 24/7
Thanks BP 🙂
This is excellent because having a native modern Greek, rather than someone who natively speaks a Germanic language like English speak this “reconstructed” Greek makes all the difference in the world. The “cadence” sounds so much better and authentic. Good stuff!
Thanks G-A, I agree that the phonemic set of modern spoken Greek helps a lot at spotting the phonemes that differ in the ancient writings. Thanks for listening 🎧
Using this to practice the alphabet and pronunciation. So glad I remembered I can slow the playback speed. Really beautiful. Thank you!
You're very welcome! Nice to having made something useful :-)
Sounds fantastic and carefully thought out. Thank you!
You're very welcome!
@@Llyebbay How is it wrong?
@@Llyebbay
My poor Germanic ears do not distinguish authentic Greek very well.
All populations change their manner of speach over time, and do think that it is interesting to speculate about the earlier pronunciations of any language, including Greek.🇬🇷
Do understand the language of Homer?
Very good. Have you ever thought about recording something like "Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata" for Ancient Greek? It would be very useful to learn the language.
Tom, thanks for listening & commenting.
Creating educational material is a (big & important) project in itself which I'm busy with, although from the sidelines at the moment. You see, I believe that if I'd concentrate extensively on such an one, it would have to be as close to an effective contemporary method of learning a living language. This is rather demanding qua collaboration and resources and needs some serious planning and concentrated workers, something hard to find nowadays without having secured enough financial and other coverage. Surely there are other paths in the internet epoch, but because of relatively little free time left I rather concentrate on my other studies, recordings and work.
But! if you have any ideas, like the one you mentioned just let me see any existing texts and... who knows.
@@Podium-arts I appreciate your fast reply. I do have some ideas in fact! Please see the first chapter of the book I mentioned, for example here: www.amazon.com/Lingua-Latina-Illustrata-Pars-Familia/dp/1585104205 (with the "Look inside"-function). As you can see the first chapter starts with very simple language with a lot of words being repeated, so the reader can understand it directly without knowing any Latin beforehand. New words are explained either by pictures or by context. This is why LLPSI is such a beloved book for learning Latin. For a book written in the same manner in ancient Greek, for the first chapter you could practically use almost the same text as the first chapter in LLPSI, or at least very similar, and just let it be centered in ancient Greece/Athens instead of Rome/Italy. What do you think about this?
@@Podium-arts PS. I am a teacher myself and if I may be so bold to say so I am very good at making lectures easy to understand for students even when dealing with complicated topics. Although I don't know ancient Greek (yet, but that will change with this coming book ;) I am happy to exchange ideas. Feel free to contact me directly at tomkot@protonmail.com
@@tomkot There's actually an existing "transfer" of the LLPSI to the Grecosphere. People don't stand still it seems... There's a website with the "whole" text, whatever that may mean. Though, there are some mistakes in the text. I didn't have time to contact the writer or work on that at all. Too busy again lately. But I'll absolutely do some work on that sooner or later.
Thank you, now I feel like the young Alexander the Great pretending I’ve understood a thing or two from my teacher speech 😂
he had to start somewhere too...
It is gorgeous! This video helps my foreign language study. Thank you.
My pleasure!
Hey man, listened to it, quite good not gonna lie, but the funniest thing is the way you respond to ppl that think it is Finnish or something, really good comebacks man.
what I find strange with them is that they finish with Finnish. Are there no people living in the North Pole region? Oh, I forgot, this is the entrance to the hollow earth and they fell inside 😞
@@Podium-arts yep man, and as a greek that doesn't really sound like Finnish
Beautiful and otherworldly
Thanks RB :-)
my knowledge of ancient greek is merely the aspirated plosive consonants and the vowels that dont merge into "i"
is there any reference or why not pronounce the "t" "th" "d" like dental consonants?
they are actually dental, all 3 of them. T, D as usual, th as T.H (both sounds audible, not like "then" or "think"). Of course sometimes, especially in speedy narration they may come over as fricatives, but this is not what I at least pronounce...
There are some cases, in Dorian dialect of Sparta, where the Θ must have been a fricative like "THink" or even closer (Sink), but even then, it was not written as Θ, but as Σ in this dialect. So for me it makes for distinct sounds of Σ & Θ anyway.
@@Podium-arts from the video they didnt sound so "dental" as in French, that confused me a little bit. As for the aspirated plosive ΦΘΧ, it wont be a problem for me (same consonants in my first language)😏
@@Podium-arts btw, i am curious why Φ in koine greek would be a bilabial fricative rather than the [p͡f], which is common in pronunciation shifting such as in high german🤔
@@zitloeng8713 They say so about the Φ been bilabial in Koine. I haven't seen any evidence about this (yet) but it's an easy thought/step if one wants to imagine going from "ph" to "f". I have to say that for various reasons I don't know many details about the Koine phonetics (yet), as I'm concentrating at the older versions of Greek for the time being.
You are a real treasure to the public! Thank you
Thank you too :-)
I've been studing Thai for 5 years and I've gotten to a level where I can make myself understood and understand what happens around me-not perfectly, but okay-ish. One of the features of the Thai language is that it has five tones and a clear distinction between short and long vowels. It is VERY important to hear and pronounce these distinctions if communication is to occur. So I pay a lot of attention to this now.
I started learning Ancient Greek a few weeks ago and in a lot of introductory materials the authors mention pitch accent and vowel length, described as rising, falling and short-long, with explanations as to which vowels are long, which are short, and what should accent marks sound like. I was imagining something between Swedish, a modern European language with pitch accent and Finnish, a language with a clear distinction between short and long vowels.
HOWEVER, I have yet to find a single sample of reconstructed Ancient Greek pronunciation that follows these rules consistently if at all. This audio, although very pleasant to listen to, sometimes sounds like Modern Greek, with disregard to the length of the vowels and an inconsistent application of the pitch accent. The reader pronounces the acute accent sometimes with the pitch going up, sometimes down, sometimes he ignores it. The vowel η is sometimes long, sometimes short, etc.- the kind of mistakes a beginning student of Chinese/Thai would make.
Please correct me if my expectations are wrong and this is exactly how Ancient Greek would have sounded.
Update: I just watched a video with very convincing arguments as to why the Modern Greek pronunciation should be used. I won't bother with philological fictions and use the speech of actual, living Greeks as models.
watch?v=uFOX6rM9nCM
@@simiyachaq hmm, the gentleman who made the video you referred to, after listening to my recordings wrote me a message about a year ago and said that he's now convinced that my rendition has changed the picture in his mind.
The whole question of reconstructed vs modern is there for centuries and fact is that both "schools" mostly insist on things they've never studied deeply, in the sense of practice -and not as acquired readily served knowledge.
The religious and political repercussions and background I leave out.
Now, regarding the accents. They are general instructions, not as formalised as in Oriental languages. Acute and 2 circumflexes are pretty clear. The acute can go up to a 5th or according to others to an octave. The grave is different. Dionysius writes it goes to a low 5th, but this is practically absurd. We are not Maria Kalas, because serial unaccented syllables (officially carrying the grave accent) sould mean going ever down to immesurable depths. It is called a "syllabic" accent, whatever that might mean to the interpreter. From Aristoxenus (and Aristides etc) we learn that speaking accents denote the motion "towards and from" the tone, not the tone/note itself, against the singing accents, when the speaker/singer stays on the tone/note etc. etc.
About your remark that some acutes stay the same, I must congratulate you. This is exactly what I do wherever I consider appropriate. I support this by the accent notations on the Bankes papyrus and the extant musical papyri, where one can deduct the conclusion that there's no other way to render the prosody than this, most natural in IE languages and of course in modern Greek too. And no, I don't think there are mistakes in the sense you describe them (of course there are some errors here and there, at least there must be!), if you consider that shortening and lengthening was part of the game in ancient Greek and also that rhythm is something different than speed of deliverance of certain words or secondary sentences etc.
There have been experiments with rendering the accents and lengths in reading software (already decades ago, I think in Princeton or Stanford, there has been something on the internet) but it was... charming :-) just that.
Thanks for commenting!
A bit late to the party, but as Thai speaker who also studies Ancient Greek, I think his pronunciation is quite spot on. Pitch accents are different from contour tones found in Thai (low mid highrise lowfall and dipping) and Chinese (high rising dipping and falling). Pitch accents aren't exactly as strict, per se, it is only general rules (since there is no specific terracing or contour required), hence why sometimes his acute sounds almost like highrise, high or even highfall tones. But they're all under the general 'high' pitch accent.
For reference, do look over Japanese, especially the Kansai dialect. Japanese has both pitch accents and vowel length. In fact, even if it's classified as 'tone', for a contour tonal language speaker like me, languages with pitch accent is far harder to study than atonal languages. Why? Because it's somewhere between tonal and atonal language. We associate tone with specific pitch and contour, so pitch accents can throw us off grid easily (stress pattern, tone shifting within a single pitch, etc). But here, I don't think his pronunciation is bad regarding pitch accent.
And you have to understand that vowel length and stress coexist in most multisyllabic languages - Latin, Ancient Greek, Arabic, even Japanese. So vowel length will not be as pronounced as those in monosyllabic languages due to the fact that stress pattern always stay the same. If stress falls on other syllable, potentially the "η" and "ω" will have shorter vowel length (but still comparatively long). It's a natural speaking pattern found in all languages with vowel length, but especially pronounced in multisyllabic languages. Heck, even in Thai, sometimes our vowel length different in actual speech is like a quarter of the actual length (Like, Mak (want) and Maak (a lot), sometimes it's like mak and ma.k). I think his vowel length rendition reflects this natural speaking pattern well.
That's my opinion.
Thankyou SO much for this.
Thank you too for listening 😊
Thank you this is great.
Thanks for listening :-)
Χαῖρε! Can you do any type of Italiote Greek? Or Ancient Greek from Calabria? My ancestors are from southern italy and I want to know what they sounded like, I only have dialect though... Ego platego Griko de Calavria, and I have NO sources on ancient greek in southern italy and I have no way of learning it, I was wondering if you could maybe ever consider doing a video on it..? I know the Achaean dialect was spoken, but thats it... if you could ever consider doing a video, that would be awesome 🙂 it would shine light on Megale Hellas, something many dont know exist.. it would be great to hear what my amcestors sounded like... thank you!!!!
Hi R.S., thanks for your comment. As far as I know the dialect spoken in Ancient southern Italy has been the "Western Doric". I haven't yet looked around for complete texts from that region. You gave me an idea to search for it. I suspect that the Doric of Pindar should come close to it, but what is the most striking characteristic for the ear is the replacement of the "h" with an "s", which other dorian dialects don't have. I'll have a look at the matter and if I get some text in this dialect I'll record it (or part thereof).
Greetings :-)
Podium-Arts Could polybius and his work be considered “Western doric”? As the whole east coast of Calabria spoke strict doric (or achaean doric) so since he is from Achaia, is his dialect similar or maybe even the same as the one in southern italy? Or is it not even close?
Well, no. Polybius didn't write in Doric but more or less in Attic/Koine. One has to look further for a proper text in the dialect...
Podium-Arts How exactly do you differentiate between an attic/ionic script from an achaean doric or western greek scripture? I have looked on various sights and sources, and I cannot tell the difference between what this (Would look like) vs an attic ionic scripture; Now I understand the “α” for “η”, with it being a doric dialect, but from all the achaean doric scriptures, I have seen a lot of “σ” being implied, with the absence of a “h” sound, which is very different from the attic and ionic dialects.. perhaps it doesn’t exist.. it maybe it does, there is bound to be an answer somewhere, scriptures from southern italy are very rare from my experience, but maybe, you are more knowledgeable in this field than I for sure, if you find ANYTHING please let me know, ευχαριστώ πολύ Ποδιυμ-Αρτς
@@roccistuccijr.3545 What you mentioned already are the main differences in writing (Α-Η, Σ) between these dialects, the rest been some minor lexical divergencies. You could search at google-books for relevant titles ("Greek dialects" or similar). There are mostly older major works available.
Make a video about Alexander speech in Opis (Arrian). That whould be awesome !!! 👍
I'll try it after the current texts I'm working on. Thanks for the suggestion!
remember that ancient readers were reading texts that were handcopied on papyri by painstakingly trained slaves letter by letter without any separation of words as we know it, which first needed to be 'recognized' (ἀναγνωρίζεσθαι) before they could be pronounced. the 'copy' slaves that were the best at this job of copying texts letter by letter didn't have to be fluent in Greek: the poorer their command of the Greek language was, the fewer errors and mistakes occurred in the papyri they were working on, and the easier their 'products' could be sold on the market (an intelligent 'copy' slave would always be too close to making conjectures and misinterpretations - thinking he knew what he was copying - while copying whole sentences or parts of sentences, a method that as we all know increases the risk of errors significantly). so, in all, what I mean is reading texts in ancient times from an excellent and reliable copy was not quite as easy and I daresay not quite as f a s t as we are used to read today. therefore, we should read classics a bit slower, please, than we usually do from our modern prints.
Πάρα πολυ ωραίο βίντεο απίστευτη δουλειά σχετικά με ό,τι κυκλοφορεί , και βγάζει μεγάλο νόημα ως προς την αιτία των τόνων και των πολλων ι,η,ει,οι αλλα κ όλων των γραμμάτων που έχουμε. Τώρα φαντάζομαι απο πολη κράτος σε πόλη κράτος της αρχαίας Ελλάδας η απο τα Ελληνικά του Ομήρου μεχρι του Αριστοτέλη η προφορά πρέπει να διέφερε. Ηθελα να ρωτήσω , πιστεύεις πως Σήμερα τα Ελληνικά που μιλάμε με την προφορά που τα μιλάμε ήταν κοντά σε κάποια απο τις αρχαίες προφορές ανα την Ελλάδα ; . Για παράδειγμα στο Βίντεο η προφορά πολλες φορές θυμίζει και την κυπριακή σε αρκετά γράμματα η τονισμούς . Θα ήταν πολύ ενδιαφέρον αλήθεια και βοηθητικό να αναβίωνε αυτή η προφορά ως δεύτερη διάλεκτος-γλώσσα ξανά σήμερα μαθαίνοντας την όλοι μας , δεν θα ήταν δύσκολο αν γινόταν σωστά απο άτομα με γνώση , καθώς πραγματικά μιλάμε για την ίδια γλώσσα . Στην αρχή μοιάζει περίεργο αλλα αν ακούσεις το βίντεο μερικά λεπτά συνηθίζει το αυτί σου και καταλαβαίνεις πολλά πράγματά.
Εὐχαριστῶ γιὰ τὸ σχόλιο :-) Τώρα, ἡ προφορὰ δὲν (θὰ) διέφερε μόνον ἀπὸ τὴν μία πόλι-κράτος στὴν ἄλλην, ἀλλὰ καὶ ἀπὸ στόμα σὲ στόμα ὅπως σήμερα. Φυσικὰ ἴχνη τῶν προφορῶν ὅπως περιγράφονται συναντᾷς παντοῦ ἀνὰ τὶς ἐπαρχίες (καθαρά φωνολογικά, ὄχι ὡς ἐκφράσεις ἢ γραμματοσυντακτικὲς διαφορὲς μόνον).
Τώρα γιὰ ἀναβίωσι δὲν ξέρω· ἡ σκέψις εἶναι γοητευτική καὶ ἔχοντας ἀκουστικὸ ὑλικὸ ἴσως εἶναι εὐκολώτερο νὰ διδαχθεῖ, ἁπλῶς χρειάζονται ἀρκετοὶ τρελλοί ὥστε νὰ ἀφιερώσουν τὸν ἀπαιτούμενο χρόνο, διότι π.χ. ἂν προσπαθήσῃ κάποιος νὰ προφέρει ἔτσι τὴν νεοελληνικὴ διάλεκτο θὰ δυσκολευτῇ ἀδίκως. Δηλ. ἡ ἐπιλογὴ καὶ σειρὰ τῶν λέξεων κ.λπ. συνδέεται ἄμεσα μὲ τὸ τὶ νοιώθουμε ὡς ταιριαστὸ στὴν κάθε περίπτωσι χρήσεως τοῦ λόγου. Σήμερα δέ, οἱ περισσότεροι μιλοῦν σὰν πολυβόλα καὶ ἂν κάτι διέφερε φανερὰ μὲ τὴν ἀρχαία εἶναι οἱ μακρὲς συλλαβές ποὺ καθιστοῦν ἀνάγλυφο τὸν λόγο καὶ πιὸ (θὰ ἔλεγα) ἀρχοντικό. Τὸ τελευταῖο δυστυχῶς σπανίζει στὴν κουλτούρα τοῦ ραγιᾶ...
Πράγματι πάντως, μὲ λίγην ὥρα ἀκρόασι δὲν εἶναι καὶ τόσο διαφορετικὴ ἡ γλῶσσα.
@@Podium-artsνα ρωτήσω κάτι, η Αττική (αρχαία ελληνικά) διάλεκτος ήταν η επίσημη στην Ελλάδα, δηλαδή αν συναντιοταν ένας Μακεδόνας με έναν κρητικό μιλουσαν με την Αττική διάλεκτο? Θα έλεγα Σπαρτιάτες αλλά επειδή και οι δύο διάλεκτοι προέρχονται από την δωρική μάλλον δεν θα έχουν πολλές διαφορές (τα μακεδονικά με τα σπαρτιατηκα)
I feel like I've a sound recording from thousands of years ago 🥰
somebody had to start time travelling! :-D
It's sounds so familiar it brought tears to my eyes
two of my colleagues share both your names :-)
Hi, I m the one who impressed by your soothing ancient greek pronunciation vidoe,
I have something to ask you. can i use part of this soundtrack to make a source filmmaker video(short movie) and upload to youtube? i m not a youtuber, which mean i have subscriber less than ten, still i want to upload it so that other people can watch my source filmmaker video but since this is my almost first time uploading footage on youtube so i don't know exactly how to use sounds that other people made appropriately on internet perhaps asking a permission to original creator might be the right way, it's okay you don’t allow me to use it, but otherwise i'll be very grateful.
It's ok to use it if it doesn't hurt anybody else
@@Podium-arts Oh that was fast sincerly thank you for your permission i really appreciate it!!!
@@Podium-arts th-cam.com/video/giLPNWIvzQs/w-d-xo.html
It'll be like this..(just a prototype) your soundtrack will be inserted as character's voice, since ancient language isn't apprehensible(Even more if he or she is not English speaker)it'll give character puffet a 'plausible' speaking effect which is not understood by spoken language but subtitles. So meaning has nothing to do with speaking language. your voice is just amazing
Funny; it even follows the lip motion
@@Podium-arts thanks!
hi ioannis. can you please help. how does ksi and psi at the end of a word get syllabified? am i correct in saying that when ksi is at the end of a word, and the next word begins with a vowel, then the s of ksi becomes pronounced with the vowel. thus out (of the) house is ek_soi_kos (ex oikos) [made up example]. i know the inverse is not true. if ksi begins a word, and the preceding word ended in a vowel, then k does not become part of the preceding word, as ks is a permitted consonant in onset. the question is, ksi at the end of a word, when followed by a vowel. and is there a difference between ksi psi at the end of a word, when the next word begins with rough breathing/smooth breathing. i cant find a rule in any grammar that says what happens to ksi psi at the end of a word when followed by a word beginning with a vowel (within a sentence). does this make sense? what do you know about rules for ksi and psi?
Hey Henry, how are you doing?!
Well, the double consonants (ξ,ψ) sound double but are counted as one at syllabification. Don't forget that syllabification is primarily a matter for the eye. At least in Greece we never dissolve them to their constituent parts in this process. They always go with the following vowel. If the next word begins with a spiritus asper it makes no difference whatsoever. The H has ceased to be considered a letter after 403 BCE, just like the ϝ, meaning that you pretend not to see them. Acoustically S and H are so close that the H almost disappears anyway. This is what we've been learning up to the time I was in school, but I see a tendency to use different approaches (since 2-3 decades now), updated by "younger" ways to analyse this stuff, mostly trying to use a unified system that should apply to many languages at once. O tempora, o mores :-)
@@Podium-arts hi Ioannis, i am well. we are having a greek exam here at bible college next week. so getting ready for that. How are you?
thank you for your quick reply, just wondering if you can help me clarify the rule again. so ζ, ψ, ξ; when between vowels - the two consonants are divided between the vowels. thus in say βαπτίζω = bap_tíz_dо̄, or ἐξουσία = ek_su_sí_a. but what about at the end of a word. here is are two phrases i took from the odyssey. ἐξ ἀρχῆς, ἐξ ἔρον. would it be correct to scan?/syllabify this as: ek_sar_kēs and ek+se+ron or would it be eks_ar_kēs and eks_e_ron?
There are (currently) two kinds of syllabification. The usual one counts the "double" letters as one and always pairs them with the next vowel, so this gives bap-ti-zo, e-xou-si-a etc, even when in practice one gives some space for the pronouncing of z as zd, x as ks/gs/khs, or lexically is more correct to account for separate words, like in "exousia" which then should be ex-ou-si-a etc.
The other way is more recent, mainly used in metric, probably thought as clearer for educative ends. This counts the "double" consonants as two letters, and writes them out as well (like your example). Personally I never use this if need arises. With this method bap-tiz-do is the right version, but I've never seen it used in Greece. Also exousia would give ek-sou-si-a, but the this could be misleading by letting understand that there exists a word ek-"sousia", which is of course nonsense. Some grammarian thought that if a student sees two consecutive consonants it would be easy to count a long-by-position. But what then with the φ,χ,θ's ph/ch/th look also double etc...
With ἐξ ἀρχῆς, ἐξ ἔρον I would prefer eks_ar_khēs and eks_e_ron (actually: eks_e_ro_n(h)en_to).
But you better check with your professor which system s/he prefers & uses.
This is amazing. So this what my ancestors roughly sounded like. It does sound familiar with our Greek language but there is a noticeable difference. It kind of sounds similar to Latin. And this is funny but some of the words even sound quasi Norse to me. I know it doesn't make sense but the words that sound like "ooh" kind of sound somewhat Norse. Thanks this was beautiful.
thanks Alexi, it's no wonder that it often comes over as Scandinavian, since these languages use both the long & short syllables, certain sounds which have disappeared from modern Greek and also use a so called "melodic" accent, which was common in Ancient Greek pronunciation
@@Podium-arts Oh you're welcome. Yeah I thought I heard that those syllable sounds that were sort similar to Norse. Exactly they have disappeared with modern Greek. It could also be the connection these languages have because of their Indo-European roots. The ancient languages not their modern descendents of course.
As a native modern Greek speaker, do you understand some of this without reading it?
@@joagalo More or less. I can construct the sentences in my head. But there is a difference to Modern Demotic Greek for sure.
@@Alexs.2599 Quite interesting though! As a neo-latin native speaker (concretely, Spanish), classical Latin is almost always unintelligible "as a whole sentence", because of the huge differences in grammar. The main natural comprehension we have is in vocabulary, but mainly because of the fossilized borrowings rather than the true inherited words, that evolved more substantialy or even were replaced by others (latinates or not).
Hallo, Mr. Stratakis.
Binnenkort heb ik een project waarin ik een fragment uit de Historiën van Polybius wil verwerken. Nu leek het me leuk om niet alleen de geschreven, maar ook de gesproken tekst in de presentatie te zetten. Nu zou ik dit natuurlijk zelf kunnen doen, maar mijn Nederlands-(Oud-)Griekse uitspraak is natuurlijk ver van gelijk aan uw stem, die naar mijn mening, erg accuraat en zuiver schijnt te zijn.
Dit is de Griekse tekst:
οὗ πρεσβευτὰς ἐκπέμψαντος εἰς Γαλατίαν ὑπὲρ τῶν αἰχμαλώτων, παρασπονδήσαντες ἐπανείλοντο τοὺς πρέσβεις. τῶν δὲ Ῥωμαίων ὑπὸ τὸν θυμὸν ἐκ χειρὸς ἐπιστρατευσαμένων, ἀπαντήσαντες συνέβαλλον οἱ Σήνωνες καλούμενοι Γαλάται. Ῥωμαῖοι δ᾽ ἐκ παρατάξεως κρατήσαντες αὐτῶν τοὺς μὲν πλείστους ἀπέκτειναν, τοὺς δὲ λοιποὺς ἐξέβαλον, τῆς δὲ χώρας ἐγένοντο πάσης ἐγκρατεῖς. εἰς ἣν καὶ πρώτην τῆς Γαλατίας ἀποικίαν ἔστειλαν τὴν Σήνην προσαγορευομένην πόλιν, ὁμώνυμον οὖσαν τοῖς πρότερον αὐτὴν κατοικοῦσι Γαλάταις, ὑπὲρ ἧς ἀρτίως διεσαφήσαμεν, φάσκοντες αὐτὴν παρὰ τὸν Ἀδρίαν ἐπὶ τῷ πέρατι κεῖσθαι τῶν περὶ τὸν Πάδον πεδίων. οἱ δὲ Βοῖοι θεωροῦντες ἐκπεπτωκότας τοὺς Σήνωνας, καὶ δείσαντες περὶ σφῶν καὶ τῆς χώρας μὴ πάθωσι τὸ παραπλήσιον ἐξεστράτευσαν πανδημεὶ παρακαλέσαντες Τυρρηνούς.
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Polybius, Historiae, Liber III, 19.9 -- 20.1
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Ik kom hier misschien een beetje laat mee, sinds de presentatie al maandag zal plaatsvinden, maar als het mogelijk is, kunnen we misschien wat regelen, sinds het natuurlijk tijd en moeite kost om een fragment zoals deze zuiver uit te spreken.
Dag SM, sorry voor de late reactie, we zijn uit geweest. Ik kan het passage zo, voordat ik met mijn andere opnames begin, opnemen voor je. Waar kan ik het straks mailen? Het zou wel via webtransfer.com opgestuurd, met de link hieronder geplaatst (als je jouw email niet in het openbaar wil zetten). Dan heb je het vrij gauw binnen.
Dit is de link naar Polybius (een .wav en een .mp3 van hetzelfde zip-gecomprimeerd). we.tl/t-2IHkyPyzfC
Ik hoop dat je het nog redt om te gebruiken. Groetjes!
@@Podium-arts Extreem bedankt!!! Voor meer kon ik echt niet wensen! Hier zal iedereen erg blij mee zijn. Ook erg bedankt voor de uitermate snelle reactie.
Ik weet dat ik weinig terug kan doen, maar ik zal het TH-cam-kanaal en de website van Podium-Arts zeker laten zien.
Wie weet kunnen we het later nog wel in onze Grieks lessen gebruiken :)!
Opnieuw, erg bedankt! Dingen zoals dit vind ik nu echt geweldig.
Spelling Mitsake graag gedaan; vind ik ook leuk soms iets helemaal buiten mijn lijstje vlugjes op te nemen.
Really stunning recitation! It is so perfectly and smoothly spoken that it makes you think this is a computer speech artefact.
A computer with a beard, hmm, this is good marketing!
Thanks Thomas :-)
@@Podium-arts No front! Of course I know it is truly recited by a man of flesh and blood. I only wanted to express how perfect und flawless this recitation is when comparing it to a machine. Sorry if this my remark should have caused any resentments.
Don't worry, I'm often joking
Could you do Modern Greek poetry? I'm really curious how you sound like in Modern Greek.
It's coming ;-)
not poetry, but this is how I rendered a text of the 19th century th-cam.com/video/FRqOtn7bdqM/w-d-xo.html
This is a bot and the pronunciation is wrong
The speaker is greek. He has a perfect greek voice.
Μιλάς;
It’s all Greek to me 🤷🏻♂️
couldn't be said more aptly :-D
lol
Κύριε Στρατάκη, γνωρίζετε την σειρά βιβλίων "Αθήναζε" (και ειδικά την Ιταλική έκδοση αυτών); Θα ήταν υπέροχο άν διαβάζατε τα κείμενα εκείνων των βιβλίων με την δική σας προφορά. Θα ήταν μάλλον και πάρα πολύ χρήσιμο για πολλούς φοιτητές.
Εν τω μεταξύ συνεχίζω να μιμούμαι αυτό που ακούω. Έχω και πολλές ερωτήσεις να σάς κάνω. Πάντως πρώτ' απ' όλα συγχαρητήρια!
(Συγχωρέστε με εάν κάνω κανένα λάθος ορθογραφίας. Δεν είμαι πολύ συνηθισμένος να γράφω στα ελληνικά :D)
Ἀγαπητὲ Hai-mei 2, εὐχαριστῶ γιὰ τὸ σχόλιό σας :-)
Ἔχω ἀκούσει γιὰ τὴν Ἰταλικὴ ἔκδοσι τοῦ ΑΘΗΝΑΖΕ, ἀλλὰ δὲν τὴν ἔχω. Σκεπτόμουν κάποτε νὰ ἠχογραφήσω τὰ κείμενα διαφόρων διδακτικῶν μεθόδων εὐρείας κυκλοφορίας. Ὅμως δὲν τὸ ἔπραξα διότι - ἀφοῦ τὰ ἔργα ποὺ ἠχογραφῶ τὰ ἐμπορεύομαι - δὲν ἤθελα νὰ διαθέσω χρόνο καὶ κόπο γιὰ τὴν διευθέτησι τῶν «πνευματικῶν δικαιωμάτων» (copyrights). Ἂν βρισκόταν κάποιος ποὺ μποροῦσε νὰ μοῦ ἐξασφαλίσει χορηγία (sponsoring) ὥστε νὰ μπορέσω ἀνενόχλητος νὰ ἠχογραφήσω τὰ κείμενα καὶ μίαν ἐφ᾽ ἅπαξ ἀμοιβή, εὐχαρίστως νὰ τὰ διέθετα δωρεάν ἢ ὅπως ἀλλιῶς ὁ χορηγὸς ἐπιθυμοῦσε.
(μιὰ χαρά γράφετε στὰ Ἑλληνικά!)
@@Podium-arts Σας ευχαριστώ για την άμεση απάντησή σας. Απ' ότι ξέρω τα δικαιώματα της ιταλικής εκδόσεως ανήκουν στην Ακαδημία Vivarium Novum. Εδώ είναι η επαφές τους: vivariumnovum.it/contatti
Αν θελήσετε, μπορείτε να δοκιμάσετε να τους γράψετε.
Θα γράψω δεύτερο σχόλιο για τις ερωτήσεις μου. :D
Λοιπόν, πρώτα απ' όλα: η προφορά σας βασίζεται σε ένα συγκεκριμένο έργο/σε μια συγκεκριμένη μελέτη η βασίζεται σε μια έρευνα και στην σύνθεση πολλών διαφορετικών "απόψεων", ας πούμε; Για παράδειγμα, ξέρω ότι το Assimil έχει βασιστεί στο Vox Graeca του W. Sidney Allen (το γνωρίζετε αυτό; πώς σας φαίνεται; ), αλλά συγχρόνως η δικιά τους προφορά δεν με τρελαίνει, και απ' ότι κατάλαβα δεν αρέσει πολύ ούτε σ' εσάς. Τί είναι ακριβώς που δεν λειτουργεί εκεί;
Άλλα πιο συγκεκριμένα πράγματα:
1) *σ* - Το σίγμα σας είναι βασικά το ίδιο των νεοελληνικών, που διαφέρει από αυτό τον ιταλικών, για παράδειγμα (το οποίο είναι λιγότερο "retracted"). Είναι όντως αυτός ο σωστός τρόπος να προφέρεται;
2) *θ, φ, χ* - Αυτό με ενδιαφέρει πάρα πολύ. Ήξερα ότι η αυθεντική προφορά αυτών των γραμμάτων ήτανε βασικά αυτή των αγγλικών, για παράδειγμα στις λέξεις still, pill, kill. Στην δικιά σας απ' την άλλη υπάρχει δάσυνση, αλλά διαφορετική, με εναν τρόπο που θα εξηγούσε και την μεταλλαγή προς την σημερινή προφορά. Είναι σκόπιμο αυτό; Ποιά ήτανε όντως η προφορά;
@@Podium-arts My Greek is very poor and I didn't get all of this conversation, but if you would like the Italian Athenazde I can give you a PDF! :-)
@@Philoglossos That's kind of you, but I already have both volumes of the italian Athenaze :)
I just asked Mr. Stratakis if he knew about Athenaze and had thought about reading those texts too, as that would be useful for students. He answered that he didn't because of possible copyright issues.
Hello
Ioannis! Andy from I love languages! Any update about our project. I hope I'm not bothering you. Have a great day! :D
Dear Andy, because I've moved to a new place and my working environment is not yet ready I think I need some days or at most a couple of weeks for the project. Is that OK with you?
@@Podium-arts it's perfectly understandable. Thanks for the update! Have a great day! :D
beautiful!!!
:-)
Beautiful
Thank you! Cheers!
You should make tutorials on how to pronounce these. I can read everything in modern greek but it would be interesting in seeing how you form this pronounciation
They will come, I'm preparing some in parallel with all the rest.
Podium-Arts could you please also explain why you think it would be pronounced this way? I mean where are the various hints for that?
@@fallennarcotic6981 You can look at books such as "Vox Graeca" by Professor W. Sidney Allen.
Any chance of reading some of the New Testament? Maybe the Gospel of John?
Sooner or later these will come, but not yet. The Koine dialect is more complicated than people imagine, not only in linguistic sense.
Aristotle *speaks*
My Age of Empires nostalgia *stonks*
:-D
Awesome. A truly ancient greek sounds like video !!!! great job❤🇬🇷
Glad you enjoyed it!
Are all pre-Koine reconstructions just based on the Attican pronunciation or have there been attempts at reconstructing other Ancient Greek dialects?
Thanks for listening & commenting :-) Well, there seems to be a (silent?) consensus about taking the Attic as the base of every other dialect and I also see a reason for this. It's the best documented dialect, plus there is no evidence (as far as I know, at least) that e.g. the same letter would represent a different sound. Though, the Doric Ω and H must have been even opener than in Attic, at least in some cases. I say this, because they are often replaced by a long A, while at the same time in the same texts both open long vowels appear in their usual form, along with the long A. In any case, I do pronounce in a uniform way any dialect. There's also the idea, I don't know where it comes from, that the Aeolic Y sounded as the monophthong OY/U, a sound people sometimes use also for the Homeric Y, where I also do not adhere to. Most (at least extended) texts came down to us through the Attic/Ionic writing system, so I just use its phonemes.
Enhorabuena por el vídeo.
thanks :-)
Funny how always imagined Aristotle to sound like exactly this
Hi there Mister, can you teach me to speak like this? I'm studying ancient Greek but especially the accents are very hard to learn! Can you help me with the pronunciation? Best regards Jonathan Baur
Hello Jonathan, thanks for dropping by :-)
Have you tried this: www.udemy.com/course/ancient-greek-phonetics/ ? Or, do you need something more advanced?
@@Podium-arts Hi there, thank you very much! This will definitely help me in my study! Kind regards Jonathan Baur ;)
Προκαλώ οποιονδήποτε ισχυρίζεται ότι ξέρει αρχαία ελληνικά να προσπαθήσει να τα καταλάβει χωρίς να διβάζει το κείμενο ή τους αγγλικούς υπότιτλους!
διὰ τῆς ἐπαναλήψεως ἐμπεδοῦται ἡ μάθησις, δωρεὰν γεῦμα στὸ σὐμπαν μᾶλλον δὲν ὑπάρχει ;-)
Σωστά, αλλά αν η σχέση αρχαίας και σύγχρονης ελληνικής ήταν τόσο στενή όσο ισχυρίζονται μερικοί, δεν θα χρειαζόταν η επαναληψη. Θα τα άκουγες μια φορά και θα τα καταλάβαινες αμέσως.
Απόδειξη ότι τα αρχαία είναι ένα νεκρό στάδιο της ελληνικής γλωσσας, παρόλο που είναι εξίσου "ελληνικά" όσα και τα σύγχρονα.
Εχετε υπεροχη φωνη.
Σᾶς εὐχαριστῶ :-)
Podium-Arts have subscribed of course. Looking forward to watching all your videos
Greek is such a sweet language!
Absolutely right! I had the same feeling :-)
I'm so glad modern Greek doesn't sound like this, it sounds much more "norma;" to me :P Although I do wish some more aspects of the ancient pronunciation had been retained
more aspects? which ones then?
Basically what I got from this was.. we have a nice solar system it's perfect in that we're in the right spot to have life.. And he debates whether other solar systems could have life like us..
That's a way to look at it 🧐
Μόνον τούτων ἀκούσας ᾐσθάνθη πᾶσαν Ἀριστοτέλους πραγματείαν, καλλίστην γὰρ εἶναι ὡς ἐμοὶ δοκεῖ.
(ᾐσθάνθην :-P ) Τῷ ὄντι καλλίστη ἐστὶν καὶ ἐμοῖ μέχρι τοῦδε πλὴν τοῦ τίτλου ἄγνωστος.
Awesome
Thanks John :-)
Sounds almost like the actor Erland Josephson speaking Swedish!
I'll try that ;-)
bravo
Thanks Catrin :-)
Εύγε και πάλι! Ακούγεται ολόενα φυσικότερη η προφορά σου.
Ευχαριστώ :-) η προσπάθεια είναι συνεχής... κάτι θὰ πρέπῃ νὰ βελτιώνεται κάθε τόσο
I am trying to read these two comments with your voice in my head. I guess middle aged aristotle would not take me as his disciple.
So I read that "Euge kai pali! Akogetai oloena fusikotere e profara so." but I know is not the modern way of saying it...
@@Podium-arts and that as "Eukharisto e prospathea einai sunekhes...kati tha prepe na beltionetai kathe toso"
Great job! I wonder how do you handle your compatriots, who call any non-Reuchlinian pronunciation Erasmic or barbarian (which in their minds are just synonyms)
I try to understand if they are trolling or write seriously. The unfortunate guys like to speak without any research or knowledge (of what their ancestors wrote). I'm wondering what is more barbaric than been ignorant and pretending to know. They killed Socrates 2500 years ago. It was the same guys...
@@Podium-arts do you think it’s just a typical characteristic of Balkan nationalism? When you say to a fellow Hellene, that he doesn’t speak in the same manner as Homer, does it really hurt his feelings? I am really interested, because I’ve never seen a nation so reluctant to their old language’s phonology, even Italians seem to accept the Restituta pronunciation of Latin.
@Shwei They see a conspiracy of foreign powers' agents. They supposedly try to prove that if contemporary Greeks don't speak like "Homer" they are no Greeks :-D
Of course this has happened in real some 150 years ago, the Fallmerayer affair, so today they try to catch the matter at birth
Sounds so different from modern greek. Modern greek is more soft, but this isn't harsh though. Love from Romania.
Thanks for listening and commenting Andrei :-) It is different in some important things, but not so different in others. One can make it harsh or soft according to the content of the text, or... own character and taste. But Aristotle is an explorer, a discoverer and a teacher, so his texts aren't really of a dramatic sort. He also taught moderation, so it would be more or less out of place to present his writings in a way he didn't propagate...
I would say that upsilon makes a difference. But otherwise, it can sound pretty much the same. The accent of this gentleman sounds a bit too heavy, but he nails it still.
@@Llyebbay They don’t. Take these few examples: φ is [pʰ] in Ancient Greek and [f] in Modern Greek, θ is [tʰ] in AG and [θ] in MG (IPA irony there), χ is [kʰ] in AG and [x] or [ç] in MG. η is [ɛː] in AG and [i] in MG, υ is [y] or [yː] in AG and [i] in MG, ω is [ɔː] in AG, and [o] in MG. α and ι could also be long [aː] and [iː] in AG. The diphtongs: αι is [aj] or [aːj] in AG and [e] in MG, ει is [ej] in AG and [i] in MG, οι is [oj] in AG and [i] in MG, αυ ευ ηυ are [aw] [ew] and [ɛːw] in AGˑ but [af] / [av] [ef] / [ev] and [if] / [iv] in MG. β is [b] in AG and [v] in MG, δ is [d] in AG and [ð] in MG, and ζ is [zd] in AG and [z] in MG. Ancient Greek had a pitch accent. High tone used to be marked with an accute accent. Ελλάδα = [elláda]. The low pitch used to occur only at the end if words, being marked with a grave accent. πολὺ = [polỳ]. The falling tone used to be marked with a circumflex. This system has been replaced by a simple stress system, like in English. So Ελλάδα = [elˈlaða] and πολύ = [poˈli]. Ancient Greek also had an initial [h], which has been completely lost in Modern Greek. ἑλληνικὰ [hellɛːnikà] VS ελληνικά [elliniˈka].
@@topazbutterfly1853 εἰ isn’t [ej] but [e:] in Attic Greek, this is a false diphthong like οὐ [u:]
Ενα μεγαλο μπραβο κ.Στρατακη! Εχω μονο δυο ερωτησεις.πρωτον:το αι και το οι δεν θα ηταν σωστο να προφερονται οπως τα λατ.æ και œ αντιστοιχα? Και δευτερον ,εχετε σκοπο να κανετε αλλλες διαλεκτους και εποχες της Ελληνικης? Γιατι απ,οτι βλεπω,τα ελληνικα του ομηρου ειναι πιο "βαρια "απο αυτα π.χ του Αριστοτελη.
Εὐχαριστῶ γιὰ τὰ θετικά σας σχόλια καὶ ἐρωτήματα.
Οἱ δίφθογγοι τῆς Ἑλληνικῆς παλαιότατα ἐγράφοντο ΑΕ ΟΕ κ.λπ. ἀντιθέτως τῆς Λατινικῆς ΑΙ, ΟΙ. Ἀργότερα τούτη ἡ γραφὴ ἀντεστράφη. Δὲν γνωρίζω ὅμως τὴν αἰτία. Κατὰ τὴν ἀνασύνθεσι τῆς Λατινικῆς προφορᾶς συνηθίζεται νὰ προφέρουν «άι, όι», ἂν καὶ γράφουν [αε,οε] ἐπίσης δι᾽ ἀγνώστους μου λόγους (δὲν ἔχω ἐμβαθύνει).
Τὸ ὑποτατικόν [ι] καὶ [υ] τῶν ἀττικῶν διφθόγγων δὲν μπορῶ νὰ χαρακτηρίσω «καθαρὰ» «ι» καὶ «υ» καὶ ὅπως χαρακτηρίζονται "γλιστρήματα" κάλλιστα κάποιος τὰ ἀκούει ἐνίοτε ὡς «άε/όε» ἢ «άι/όι» ἀναλόγως τοῦ φωνητικοῦ περιβάλλοντος. Ἔχετε λοιπὸν μερικῶς δίκιο.
Ὅσον ἀφορᾷ ἠχογραφήσεις ἄλλων διαλέκτων, ἤδη ὑπάρχουν κάποιες (Σαπφώ, Ἡρόδοτος, Πίνδαρος, Ἱπποκράτης). Οἱ διάλεκτοι διαφέρουν (ὅσον ἀφορᾷ τὴν ἀνάγνωσι ἢ ἀπαγγελία) γραμματικῶς καὶ ἀφοῦ χρησιμοποιοῦνται τὰ αὐτὰ στοιχεῖα τῆς ἀλφαβήτου ὑποθέτω πὼς τὰ γράμματα εἶχαν μία γενικῶς ἰδία προφορά παντοῦ ἣν καὶ ἐφαρμόζω, γιὰ τὸν ἁπλούστατο λόγο ὅτι οὐδέποτε συνήντησα νὰ ἀναφέρονται διαφορετικὲς προφορὲς τῶν ἰδίων γραμμάτων. Μποροῦμε νὰ ὑποθέσωμε πὼς τὸ μακρὸν Α θὰ ἠχοῦσε λίγο διαφορετικὸ ἀνάλογα ἂν ἀντιστοιχοῦσε σὲ καθαρὸ Α, σὲ Η ἢ Ω, μὰ καὶ τοῦτο πάλι δὲν μαρτυρεῖται.
Ὁ Ὅμηρος κατεγράφη ὑπὸ τῶν Ἀττικῶν. Νομίζω πὼς αὐτοὶ κατέγραψαν τὴν πλησιεστέρα δυνατὴ προφορά, διὰ τῶν συμβόλων τῆς Ἀττικῆς καὶ ἔτσι, βάσει αὐτῆς ἀπαγγέλλω κι ἐγώ. Ἡ γλῶσσα του θεωρεῖται μῖγμα Αἰολικῆς, Ἰωνικῆς καὶ Δωρικῆς καὶ μᾶς φαίνεται πράγματι βαρεῖα, κυρίως λόγῳ τῶν παλαιοτέρων λεκτικῶν τύπων καὶ τῆς πολυπλόκου συντάξεως, ποὺ μᾶς ξενίζουν ἐν συγκρίσει μὲ «νεωτέρους» συγγραφεῖς ἢ τὴν Ἐκκλησιαστικὴ γλῶσσα.
Τώρα ὅσο ἀφορᾷ ἠχογραφήσεις ἄλλων ἐποχῶν, διάφορα ἑτοιμάζω. Μεταξὺ ἄλλων καὶ τῆς Νέας λεγομένης Ἑλληνικῆς. Γιὰ κείμενα ὅμως τῆς «ἀρχαίας» ὅσα ἐγράφησαν στὸ πνεῦμα ἢ ὡς συνέχεια τῶν κλασικῶν, Ἀλεξανδρινῶν κ.λπ. θὰ τηρήσω τὴν Ἀττικὴ προφορά. Ἐκεῖνα ποὺ ἀνήκουν στὴν Χριστιανικὴ γραμματεία ὀρθότερον εἶναι νὰ ἠχογραφηθοῦν στὴν Κοινή τῆς ἀντιστοίχου περιόδου, πρᾶγμα ὅμως πολύπλοκο, μιᾶς καὶ αὐτὴ δὲν ὑπῆρξε ἐνιαία μέχρι τὸ 1000μΧ περίπου ὅπου μποροῦμε νὰ ποῦμε ὅτι σταθεροποιήθηκε στὴν Ὑστεροβυζαντινή (ποὺ ὁμιλοῦμε καὶ σήμερα).
Εὐχαριστῶ γιὰ τὸ ἐνδιαφέρον σας :-)
@@Podium-arts κι εγω ευχαριστω για την απαντηση σας! Αλλη μια παρατηρηση που εχω κανει ειναι οτι φονολογικα (οσο και γραμματικα και σε λεξιλογιο), η προτο-κελτικη ειναι πολυ κοντα τοσο στα λατινικα οσο και τα ελληνικα,κατι το οποιο μου φαινεται περιεργο ,θεωροντας οτι οι ελληνες και οι ρωμαιοι τους εβλεπαν ως "βαρβαρους". Πχ ακουστε αυτο m.th-cam.com/video/IJt99ZMiTZo/w-d-xo.html
Ἄκουσα τὸ προταθέν καὶ ὑπάρχουν κοινὲς λέξεις, ἢ καλλίτερα κοινῆς προελεύσεως, πρᾶγμα αὐταπόδεικτο. Ὅσον ἀφορᾷ ὅμως τὴν προφορὰ δὲν εἶμαι βέβαιος ὅτι βασίζεται σὲ δεδομένα ὅπως ἐκεῖνα τῆς ἀρχαίας Ἑλληνικῆς. Δὲν ἐξηγεῖται π.χ. εὔκολα γιατί τὸ «a» προφέρει μὲ ἕναν τρόπο (ποὺ μοιάζει καὶ μὲ τὸ Ἑλληνικό) τὴν στιγμὴ ποὺ σήμερα στὸ Ἡνωμένο Βασίλειο τὸ ἴδιο γράμμα προφέρεται μὲ 16 διαφορετικοὺς τρόπους... Τώρα τὸ ποιούς ὠνόμαζαν βαρβάρους ἦταν μᾶλλον θέμα ἀντιπαθείας ἢ ἐναντίων συμφερόντων καὶ ὄχι μόνον γλωσσικῆς διαφορᾶς, μιᾶς καὶ ὑπάρχουν σχετικὰ παραδείγματα στὴν Ἑλληνικὴ γραμματεία. Οἱ Ρωμαῖοι ἔφεραν τὴν καὶ σήμερα ἰσχύουσα ἔννοια τῆς λέξεως, τὸν ἄξεστο, ἀγροῖκο, βίαιο ἄνθρωπο, κάτι ποὺ δὲν ἐννοοῦσαν οἱ Ἕλληνες (τουλάχιστον πρὶν τὴν Ρωμαϊκὴ κατάκτησί τους).
lectura preciosa
Grazie/as
I cannot miss each and every time epsilon iota is read as /ei/ instead of /e:/ or /i:/
So you believe people reading in ancient times had the time, knowledge and opportunity to know what modern linguists deduce?
Είμαι υποχρεωμένος να παρατηρήσω ότι η λέξη "σφαίρας" απαγγέλλεται εσφαλμένα "σφάιρας", αφού ο τόνος πέφτει στο δεύτερο μερος του διφθόγγου και όχι στο πρώτο, το οποίο θα αντέβαινε στο νόμο της προπαραλήγουσας.
Μα γι αυτό είναι "δίφθογγος" (συλλαβή) το κύριο φωνήεν λέγεται δυνατώτερα και ανάλογα το ειδος τόνου τονίζεται (μελωδικά) το κύριο ή το υποτακτικό. Το εύρος (και άλλα) καθορίζεται από την συντακτική προσωδία . Εδώ δηλ. λέμε Αϊ - τα, όχι όμως ως 2 χωριστές συλλαβές, το υποτακτικό οφείλει να είναι δευτερεύον.
Εκτός κι αν η παρατήρηση εννοεί κάτι άλλο . Στον "γάιδαρο" εξακολουθεί να είναι 2φθογγος όπως της αρχαίας, δεν είναι τα Α κ Ι χωριστές συλλαβές, αλλά συλλαμβάνονται σε μια.
ἀρίστως ἐκφωνεῖς, ὦ φίλε.
προσπαθῶ!
Does anyone know if there's a modern Greek reading of this text anywhere?
Alas, there isn't. Do you mean this very text or the whole book?
@@Podium-arts just this part.....
@JacquesMare I've made a quick recording of it. Send me an email and I will send it to you
Wow
Sounds utterly different to modern standard Greek.
well, not if you listen long enough to it
@@Podium-arts
Was Byzantine Greek more like modern standard Greek ? Do you have videos on that ?
You're doing the God's work, thank you.
Hmm dear Cato, I thought this kind of work was reserved for bankers ;-)
Sounds sooo different. Im an American of greek descent and i live in a small town that is very Greek in florida. This Greek doesn't sound like any Greek here. To me, its so much better. Modern Greek is kind of rough.
Depends who is talking usually and how much people have a feeling for language, but the older language has some characteristics which make it a bit harder for us today but they contribute to a more "exploitable" aesthetic
Πιστεύεις ότι η προφορά του "η" ως "ε" μπορεί να εξηγήσει γιατί η λέξη "Ρωμαίος"(Ρομέος η προφορά) κατέληξε να είναι Ρωμηός;
Ναί... βέβαια ἔχει ὅμως καὶ παράλληλο δρόμο. Τὰ Η καὶ Ε διαφέρουν σὲ διάρκεια ἀλλὰ καὶ λίγο στὸ συναίσθημα ποὺ προκαλοῦν. Ἡ διαφορὰ τοῦ ἤχου τους ἐξαρτᾶται ἀπὸ τὸ ὅτι στὰ μακρὰ προλαβαίνει ν' ἀνοίξει τὸ στόμα περισσότερο ἀλλὰ καὶ νὰ χαλαρώσει ἡ γλῶσσα (καί στὰ 3 ἀνοικτά: Ᾱ, Η, Ω). Στὸ Ε, ἀντιθέτως τὰ ὄργανα εἶναι λίγο πιὸ σφιχτά καὶ ἡ γλῶσσα ὑψωμένη ὡς τὴν μέση συνήθως (στὸ ΕΙ ἀρκετὰ ψηλά, ποὺ τὸ κάνει νὰ ἀκούγεται σὰν τὸ σημερινὸ Ι). Σήμερα λέμε θεός καὶ θιός καὶ ἄλλα τέτοια. Στὴν ἀρχαιότητα οἱ δίφθογγοι γράφονταν ἀντὶ μὲ [-ι] μὲ [-ε] (ἀντίθετα οἱ συγγενεῖς μας οἱ Λατῖνοι ἀρχικὰ τὶς ἔγραφαν μὲ [-i] καὶ μετὰ μὲ [-e]), μετὰ συνέβη τὸ ἀντίστροφο. Ἀναμφίβολα τὰ ε & ι μοιάζουν στὸν σχηματισμὸ καὶ τὸν ἦχο (γλῶσσα ὑψωμένη, χείλη ὁριζόντια) ὁπότε δὲν θέλει καὶ πολύ. Φαντάσου πὼς τὴν ἐποχὴ ποὺ τὰ μακρὰ καὶ τὰ βραχέα δὲν ἦταν τόσο διακριτὰ πλέον, ἦταν κι εὔκολο νὰ φραφεῖ τὸ ἕνα στὴν θέσι τοῦ ἄλλου.
Τώρα, τὸ (μὴ) παράδοξο εἶναι ὅτι καὶ τὰ Η & ΑΙ ἦταν ἐπίσης κοντὰ ἠχητικά, διότι στὴν ΑΙ τὸ Α λέγεται μὲ τὴν γλῶσσα πιὸ ὑψωμένη, ποὺ τὸ κάνει νὰ μοιάζει μὲ Ε, τὸ δὲ ὑποτακτικὸ Ι σβήνει ἀφοῦ δὲν δεσπόζει ὅπως τὸ κύριο, μὲ ἀποτέλεσμα νὰ ἔχομε ἑνὸς εἴδους βαρὺ Ε, ὄχι ὅμως μὲ τὸ στόμα ἀνοικτὸ ὅπως τὸ Η. Κάποιοι παλαιότεροι τὸ γνώριζαν αὐτό καὶ ὅταν ἡ ΑΙ εἶχε γίνει πλέον μονόφθογγος θεώρησαν πὼς ὀρθὴ γραφὴ ἀπὸ [Ῥωμαῖος] σὲ [Ρωμ-ι-ός] ἦταν μὲ Η, ποὺ παραδοσιακὰ ἀπεικόνιζε τὸ «βαρύτερο» Ε ποὺ εἶχε γίνει κι αὐτὸ μὲ τὴν σειρά του «Ι».
Σὰν σκέψι εἶναι ἱστορικὰ σωστό, διότι σώζει αὐτὴν τὴν παλαιὰ ἠχητικὴ συγγένεια, ἀλλὰ στὶς μέρες μας δὲν ὑπάρχει διαφορὰ στὸ ἄκουσμα ὁπότε εἶναι ἁπλῶς ἀποτέλεσμα τῆς ἱστορικῆς (καὶ ὄχι φωνητικῆς) ὀρθογραφίας.
Μεταξὺ ἀρχαίων διαλέκτων βρίσκονται λέξεις ποὺ στὴν μία γράφονται μὲ ΑΙ, στὴν ἄλλην μὲ Η. Πολὺ χαρακτηριστικὸ τὸ «καί», ἀλλοῦ «κή» (ἀκόμη παλαιότερα «ϙή»), ποὺ πάλι δείχνει ὅτι δὲν ἔλεγαν «κιέ» ὅπως ἐμεῖς. Κ.λπ. κ.λπ.
Δηλ. θὰ ἔλεγα ὁ Ρωμηὸς ὡς γραφὴ ἔκανε δύο ταξείδια.
@@Podium-arts Ευχαριστώ για την απάντηση, με βασάνιζε καιρό για ποιο λόγο ονομαστήκαμε Ρωμιοί από Ρωμαίοι την Τουρκοκρατία. Επιβεβαιώνεται έτσι το όμοιο τον ενδώνυμων.
@@Podium-arts Και μια μικρή απόδειξη για τη χρήση του Ρωμαϊός αντί του Ρωμαίος (στην αρχαία προφορά) φαντάζομαι είναι και η χρήση του παράγωγου Ρωμαϊκός αντί του Ρωμαίικος (το οποίο όλως τυχαίως χρησιμοποιείται μόνο στην υστεροβυζαντινή περίοδο και στην Τουρκοκρατία).
Τι λέτε γι' αυτό;
@@Podium-arts 👍👍👍
hôs thaumaston anagignôskein tode ! thaumasteron gar edoxe moi ê sunethês ! kalõs, hôsper aei.
Χάριν ἔχε VM, εὔλογος δὴ ὁ πόνος
0:04 wait, Ουρανου is singular, why is the title “On the HeavenS”?
very well seen, especially when in this very writing Aristotle says there can be only one heaven and not many 😀 Take it as a practical joke.
@@Podium-arts Ok I like the joke, not many people will notice it😆
Why do some Greeks seem to be so defensive when it comes to how their ancient language was pronounced? They seem to get offended when ancient texts aren’t read in a modern Greek accent and think all reconstructions are Erasmian somehow.
it's lack of good education... and this can take many forms
@@Podium-arts What lack of education, you... You pronounced «αυτός» “a-oo-tos” 😭… you pronounce «αι» “a-ee”, you pronounce «οι» “o-ee”…I wonder what accent/dialect you spoke in 🙄, probably one of your own…
Μιλάτε για την παιδεια των ελληνων οταν εσείς οι ίδιοι είσαστε ημιμαθής. Καλύτερα, θα ήταν, να αφήνατε τα αρχαία ελληνικά στους Έλληνες και εσείς να μαθαίνατε Αγγλοσαξονικά, η Παλιά Σκανδιναβική.
Μήπως συγχέετε τὴν νεοελληνικὴ προφορὰ μὲ τὶς παλαιότερες; λέμε τώρα... Αὐτό ἐννοῶ, ὅτι ἡ πλειονότης τῶν ἑλλαδιτῶν εἶναι δυστυχῶς ἐντελῶς ἀπληροφόρητη γιὰ τὸ πῶς περιέγραφαν οἱ ἀρχαιότεροι τὴν ὁμιλουμένη τους προφορά.
Χαίρομαι ὅμως ποὺ θίγεστε, δείχνει κάπως πιὸ ἀνοικτὸ μυαλό.
@@Podium-arts Χαίρεστε που θίγομαι; Να σας θυμίσω ότι οι ίδιοι Έλληνες που σας διορθώνουν και εσείς χαρακτηρίζετε
απληροφόρητους έχουν μάθει αρχαία ελληνικά στο σχόλιο, και αυτά που κάνατε εσείς στο πανεπιστήμιο, εκείνοι κάνανε στην πρώτη γυμνασίου. Να μην σας πω ότι, εξαρτάται την ηλικία τους, αλλά κάποιοι μπορεί και να έχουν μεγαλώσει με την καθαρεύουσα, που χρησιμοποιεί και συμπεριλαμβάνει πολλά στοιχεία της αρχαίας ελληνικής. Εσείς εδώ, κύριε μου, χρησιμοποιείτε την ερασμιακή προφορά. Ξέρετε σε πια εποχή ο Έρασμος αναφερόταν;
Δεν χαίρομαι που θίγεστε αλλά διότι αυτό δείχνει κάποιαν έστω ευαισθησία επί του αντικειμένου.
Κι εγώ μεγάλωσα την εποχή της καθαρευούσης και με βοήθησε πολύ, κρίμα που δεν διδάσκεται πλέον, δεν ήταν αρκετά λαϊκιά φαίνεται για την πλειοψηφία που ως γνωστόν έχει πάντα δίκιο έκτοτε.
Τέλος δεν χρησιμοποιώ την ερασμική, βλέπετε που κι εσείς δεν φροντίσατε να πληροφορηθείτε αρκετά... Αλλά και ερασμική να ήταν μήπως γνωρίζετε ποιοι υπήρξαν οι διδάσκαλοι κ συνάδελφοι του Εράσμου; Διότι δεν τα έβγαλε και τελείως από την φαντασία του όσα έγραψε.
Να είστε καλά!
I am trying to learn Modern Greek and strangely, it is easier to distinguish individual spoken words in Ancient Greek
yes, because in the Ancient dialects the alphabetic principle was more or less still valid (one symbol = one sound), which doesn't happen in modern Greek
There is neither ancient Greek nor modern, there is just one Greek Language
This is an ideological stance with no practical use
This reminds me of Scandinavian languages.
it's the "melodic" accent and some sounds that are more often found in northern pronunciations.
Thanks for listening :-)
How do you know how it was pronounced?
there are ancient Greek writings which describe most stuff of the pronunciation of their time. Not everything, but enough to try...
@@Podium-arts do you have any examples? Just trying to figure out how
@@vasiliskarpouzis9568 There are a lot of examples in the book Vox Graeca and in Greek: A History of the Language and Its Speakers. I don't know about any books written on the subject in Greek but Stratakis (Podium arts) is Greek so he can probably tell you.
@@Philoglossos great, thank you
Εξαιρετική προφορά!!!
Εὐχαριστῶ Κωνσταντῖνε :-) κάνουμε ὅ,τι μποροῦμε μὲ τὶς ὁδηγίες ποὺ μᾶς ἄφησαν οἱ παλαιοί.
@@Llyebbay γιὰ μένα εἶναι μία ὀρθὴ ἀρχαία προφορὰ κλασικῆς περιόδου
Id expect it to be screamed atop a podium.
ah, there are other ones to be screamed atop a podium...
Is this the language that Alexander would have addressed his troops in?
with some variations yes (he most probably would use Macedonian Doric, while Aristotle used the Attic dialect)
@@Podium-arts So the ancient Macedonians were Greek speaking but of non Greek ethnicity/ancestry?
Why do you think so? Did people learn foreign languages at that time, especially when they didn't have a social position that would need so?
@@Neezabja You are confusing the Greek Alexander the Great with Skopian Alexandovsky the king of Monkeydonia he lives in your fantasy .LOL!
Lots of Hh sounds in the Hellenic language.
They couldn't keep their mouth shut! Too hot...
Quaint
:-)
Sounds like japanese in soft. Reconstructed latin would be cool!
oh, there's a lot of Latin on TH-cam :-)
@@Podium-arts But unfortunately nothing like this.
How much can modern Greeks understand of this?
Many of the words, but piecing together a meaning is another story, to a modern Greek speaker it feels like having a bunch of familiar concepts but without being sure how they interact with each-other. That said, some sentences are more understandable than others.
By listening: If you are not used to that type of pronunciation and you haven't interacted with Ancient Greek at all for years (like most of us) a lot of words are pretty hard to recognize.
By reading: Some phrases are easy. some other are not. I think that the vast majority of words (or their "root word") in this text is somewhat familiar to every greek person. In any case, any properly educated person in Greece (that was a good student in junior highschool and highschool) is able to roughly understand the text with little effort and the use of vocabulary and grammar notes. Keep in mind that vocabulary notes are something you hardly can do without, even when reading Modern Greek literature, because most writers make use of unique local words used exclusively in their place of residence or origin etc. That said, a deep understanding of the whole text won't be easy for the majority of Greeks but with the appropriate amount of patience and focus I consider it highly feasible.
My unanswered question is how many Greeks *want to understand this ;-)
Sounds like a Finnish man tries to order in Greek at the local kafe during his summer holidays in Samos
I'm afraid that that man will order a coffee and will get an octopus dish...
@@Podium-arts 😂😂😂
i could make out the word cosmos
That's a good start :-)
0:08
This is James Bond +1
Sounds like Swedish to my ears
it's a bit cooler there in the summer, at least ;-)
Swedish 😄 I don’t think so
It’s sound Scandinavian or very Yamnaya related bro
there are so many people that say this that I'll start to believe it :-) And yes, they are relatives linguistically ...
@@Podium-arts could you read Mycenaean Greek sentences in this pronunciation or a reconstructed Mycenaean era pronunciation?
it is possible to read (some) Mycenean sentences, but I'm not sure if the current transliteration is phonetic or just an approximation. It can so be that their writing has been just a support for memory and not really orthographic.
@@Podium-arts I think this pronunciation would be more accurate because we don’t have any Latin influence there for a phonetic shift.
@@Podium-arts and greeting from Asia Minor🇹🇷 love you my Greek brothers 🇬🇷❤️
I feel a chill down my spine whenever he says "ey" and "ay" instead of "i" and "e"
dear friend, i's and e's are the simplified forms that made the language sound more like a type machine :-D and confused everybody since... But, I hope you don't mean the chills as a medical condition!
Not at all, I'm good :) And I laughed to your type machine analogy of Modern Greek. The monophongization and loss of vowel length distinction really do result in such an effect on the modern langauge. It's still shocking to see how in the ancient language the vowels are more or less pronounced as they're spelled, and yet that's what makes it so beautiful
Well, representing the elementary sounds graphically in a one-to-one and reciprocal relation is the alphabetic principle. This is also implied in the most ancient definition of "orthography" in Greek I could find. Ergo, you can't have 7 i's and 2 o's and e's... And, well taste is subjective, but I also find the old pronunciation more beautiful, although the modern one can also be very expressive - but mostly depending on the speaker...
What dialect of greek is this?? Attic??
Sure, Attic, yes...
Πολύ κοντά στα αραβικά η προφορά. Πράγμα πιο λογικό μάλλον για τους αρχαίους Έλληνες και τις σχέσεις τους με τους λαούς της ανατολικής Μεσογείου και Μεσοποταμίας
δὲν τὸ σκέφθηκα ἔτσι, ἀλλὰ πιθανῶς νὰ μοιάζει καὶ λίγο μὲ Ἀραβικά, ἂν καὶ δὲν τὸ ἔχει ξαναπεῖ κάποιος
❤
This is comparable to Japanese. If Rome movies are done in English anyway, why not Alexander or Aristotle movies in Japanese?
Hmm, I'll send your proposal to a marketing company :-D
👌👌👌👌
You can’t fool me, this is just Finnish.
hmm, if you turn Europe upside down Greece goes North, Finnland South. Then it works :-P
Why does it sound like Swedish or Finnish?
it's the "melodic" accents, the short & long vowels and the consonants differing from what we're used in modern Greek... It might sound like whatever people associate this prosody with. Some say Chinese, some Nordic and it goes on and on, but this is where a reader lands when following the instructions of the Ancient Greeks.
Ὡς ἑκάστοτε λίαν ἀγαθόν