On Memory & Recollection, by Aristotle (reconstructed Ancient Greek pronunciation)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ก.ย. 2024
- 1st two paragraphs of the unabridged "On Memory & Recollection" by Aristotle narrated in reconstructed Ancient Greek. Audiobook is available at: ancientgreek.e... , www.podium-art... or sites.fastspri...
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Fantastically recreated, as always.
thanks a lot Y :-)
Aristotle's original greek works survived? I thought they were translated back from latin.
Love your recordings. Have you thought about recording very simple texts to learn ancient Greek, like start with the alphabet, numbers, simple phrases and dialogs etc.
Sure I did, but there's already a lot out there, so I preferred to concentrate on whole works first. But, since people ask for it I'm silently collecting material for a kind of "method". We'll see...
There are some people busy with preparing a similar text, though not yet finished. I've had a look and I'm waiting till they have the complete set. From what I saw it needs some corrections here and there. Pray for a quick delivery ;-)
@@Podium-arts That sounds fantastic! Keep up the good work Sir.
Πο! πο! Πραγματικά πάει καιρός από την προηγούμενη μεταφόρτωση. Όμως η ποιότητα παραμένει υψηλή!
Τις ευχαριστίες μου και για αυτό το απολαυστικό μικρό επιδεικτικό! Καλές διακοπές εύχομαι και καλό καλοκαίρι! Ἔρρωσο!
Ναί, πάει καιρός, ἀλλὰ εἶχα κάποιες περιπέτειες... Ἐλπίζω σύντομα νὰ ξαναβρῶ τὸν ῥυθμό μου :-)
Εὐχαριστῶ!
Really enjoying these recordings. Looking forward to whenever you're able to release more complete works. I love listening to An Ephsian Tale and Aristotle's Poetic and On The Soul all the way through. I imagine each recording takes quite a bit of time and effort, and there's so many interesting texts to do.
Thanks Ryan :-) About complete works, I'm like horses before the race... but they, indeed, need a lot of preparation plus the endless hours and days of recording and after that, editing etc There's a lot to do, I mean also the "big" ones. The problem is that I can't nowadays reserve continuous hours, days, weeks; family, my musical work, performing and commuting takes (and of course gives) a lot of energy. Now I'm wondering which work(s?) to prepare in the coming 10 vacation days. I thought of Tryphiodorus' "The Sack of Troy", or Hesiod's "Theogony", or "Daphnis & Chloe", or Aristotle's "Nicomachean Ethics", or any of Plato's short works, or, or... You understand :-D
What do you think would be a fitting release for the coming period?
They're worth the wait! All those works you mention sound great, I think personally I'd be most interested in "Daphnis & Chloe", but I'd appreciate any of them.
@@ryansmallwood1178 After the Ephesian Tale I was dreaming of Daphnis & Chloe, but it's even longer :-D Maybe it's time to start working on it though. OK, I'll take it with me to the mountains. Who knows!
Πάντα μου αρέσει να σας ακούω! Με την αγάπη από τη Ρώσια, λιγάκι ξέρω εληνικά. Με εμπνέτε
Εὐχαριστῶ πολύ :-)
Να ειστε καλα, απο τα βιντεο σας καταλαβα την ουσια των διαφορων συμβολων του πολυτονικου συστηματος. Κριμα που στο σχολικο μαθημα των αρχαιων διδασκονται μονο ξερα και εντελως "εγκεφαλικα" οι κανονες χρησης του.
κι οἱ κανόνες εἶναι λίγο «κουτσοί», διότι δίδονται μόνον στὸ ἐπίπεδο μιᾶς λέξεως (ἔστω κι ἂν κάποιοι διδάσκοντες καταλάβαιναν ἐμπράκτως τί δηλοῦν τὰ σύμβολα).
Εὐχαριστῶ γιὰ τὸ σχόλιο καὶ τὴν ἀκρόασι :-)
Thank for the work you have put into this. I had a question for you . Have you made any connection between Ancient Greek and Pontiaka ? Thank you
(Sorry for the late reaction).
Yes, there's a clear connection with the Pontic Greek dialect. Some pronunciations (and more) have remained unchanged like in "common" Ancient Greek, while others moved along in the Byzantine period towards the modern Greek pronunciation. But it is a dialect in itself, with strong characteristics of its own. I even have an edition of the Odyssey in Pontiaka :-)
Podium-Arts no need for a
an apology , I thank you for your response . I have been diving into the Ancient Greek language the last year . When you speak the way you do reading Ancient Greek , it actually remindeds me a little of my grandfather who spoke Tsakonika. My roots are from Sparta and only a few are left the actually speak this dialect mostly elderly . Have you ever done any kind of investigation into this dialect and the possibility of connecting to Ancient Greek just like Pontiaka? Thank you once again for your response and time you put into this . Εφχαριστο !
Hey! i admire a lot your work! I'd like to ask you: are you thinking in recreate The Iliad? Would be great!
Of course I'm busy with it ;-)
Enhorabuena por el vídeo.
thanks :-)
σοκάρομαι (ευχαριστα ομως..) οταν συνειδητοποιώ οτι στην αρχαία προφορά η δασεία είχε τελικά ήχο!
τὸ αὐτὸ ἅπαντα τὰ γραπτὰ σημεῖα· κατὰ τὸν ἀρχαῖον ὁρισμὸ τῆς «ὀρθογραφίας»
Anything in Doric coming up?
I've already published the integral "Olympian Odes" by Pindar. At a certain moment I'll go on with Pindar's work. There's not much left in this dialect, unfortunately... This year is for the Iliad, so not much else will be published along it.
@@Podium-arts Thanks for your reply.
I was thinking about Archimedes, I have heard some of his writings have survived. As far as I understand is also some od Aesera and what often is attributed to Pinthys.
ἂν καὶ διαφωνῶ μὲ τὴν παροῦσα ἐκδοχὴ τῆς προφορᾶς μαρέσει καὶ ἑστιάζω στὸ ἐνδιαφέρον σας καὶ στὴν προσπάθεια ἀναβίωσης τῶν ἀρχαίων ἑλληνικῶν μέσω αὐτῆς τῆς σειρᾶς βίντεο εὖγε καὶ μὴν στάματήσετε τὴν καλὴ δουλειά.
Φίλτατε Μαρῖνε 88, εὐχαριστῶ γιὰ τὸ σχόλιο καὶ τὴν ὑγιῆ στάσι σου. Δὲν γνωρίζω γιατὶ διαφωνῇς μὲ τὴν προφορὰ τούτη, ἀλλὰ εἶναι προϊὸν μακροχρόνιας μελέτης καὶ δοκιμῶν πάνω σὲ στοιχεῖα παλαιῶν Ἑλληνικῶν κυρίως πηγῶν. Ἂν διαθέτετε στοιχεῖα ποὺ δείχνουν κάτι διαφορετικό, εἶμαι πάντοτε ἀνοικτὸς σὲ βελτιώσεις οἱουδήποτε εἴδους. Δὲν διατείνομαι αὐθεντίαν πέραν αὐτῆς τῶν πηγῶν καί, ἀφοῦ οὐδεὶς δύναται νὰ τὶς γνωρίζῃ ἅπασες, ἐλπίζω νὰ βρεθοῦν καὶ ἄλλες.
Φιλέλλην φίλῳ ἕλληνι χαίρειν. Ἐγὼ νεωστὶ ηὗρον βιβλίον τι ὁμιλοῦν τῶν Ἀδελφῶν Καραμάζοφ τοῦ μεγάλου Ῥώσσου μυθογράφου, ὃ ἀναγιγνώσκει ἀνήρ τις ὀνόματι Ἰωάννης Στρατάκης. Ἆρα σὺ εἶ ἐκεῖνος ὁ Ἰωάννης; Εἰ μὲν τῷ ὄντι εἶ σύ, τίνα ἄλλα βιβλία ἀνέγῳς ἐν τῇ νῦν ἑλληνικῇ; Εἰ δὲ μὴ, ἆρα οἶσθα σὺ ποῦ ἔξεστιν εὐρεῖν βιβλία τῶν νῦν ἑλληνικῶν γραμμάτων ὁμιλοῦντα; Πολλὰ γὰρ ἃ ἤδη ηὗρον οὐκ εστιν ὑψηλῆς ὡς εἰπεῖν ποιότητος. Χάριν σοι μεγίστην!
Χαῖρε φίλε δεκάγλωσσε! Οὐκ οὗτος αὐτός εἰμι, ἄλλος γάρ τις ὑποκριτής, ταυτώνυμος ὃν σὺ ἤκουσες. Ἕως τοῦ νῦν δέ νεοελληνιστὶ οὐδὲν ἐδημοσίευσα, δημοσιεύσω δέ ἐν ὀλίγῳ χρόνῳ τι.
This pronunciation system feels too complex to have evolved naturally. In fact, it sounds like it came straight out of a conlang... coincidentally, I've been working on one that accidentally ends up having a very similar phonology to that of reconstructed ancient Greek, like vowel and consonant length and a voiceless rhotic. And the funny thing is that I had doubts it would be too complex to have evolved naturally, yet reconstructed ancient Greek is even more complex and is a historical natural language!
My idea of complexity is, for sure, culturally informed, but even accounting for that I still find it hard to believe that this spoken language could ever be useful to anyone - and you're doing an excellent job at delivering the text as fast as humanly possible while still maintaining the sounds, so how exactly would people communicate in times of emergency when to utter the simplest phrase they'd need a solid minute?
To elaborate a bit, what makes this pronounciation unwieldy is that both the phonology and the phonotactics are incredibly complex. Four vowel sounds one after another, just gliding from one sound to the next? Paired with long unstressed vowels? And gemination? And consonant clusters? And phonemic aspiration? Even modern Greeks feel the need to make heavy use of Sandhi while the language is already simplistic in its phonotactics compared to ancient Greek, so I can only imagine how limited ancient Greeks must have been if they really had to speak like this.
I do not have the knowledge to challenge the arguments of historical linguists and I will thus accept their conclusions, but my gut can't comprehend it. Perhaps proto-languages were overengineered for whatever reason and modern languages are truly better, not just different. Besides, we don't really know how language came to be (if I'm not mistaken), so it did not have to be efficient from the get-go.
The more intelligent boundary pushing language (i.e. not just from 'the street') and works were recorded and left to us
@@yohopirate Not sure what you mean by that, can you elaborate?
Γειά σου Μάριε, thanks for taking time to listen & comment.
Well, from the thousands of spoken languages (the reconstructed) Ancient Greek is not such a complex one (I think). These people wrote down enough info to describe the production method and sentiment the sounds recall, so they must have spoken & heard it more or less like this. Regarding speech speed, this is rather slow paced because many people use my audiobooks in an educative environment, so this tempo is a middle between intelligibility and challenge.
Your other point, emergency communication, is a good one. I think they spoke faster, and most probably cutting the longs shorter. There must be a reason that before 403BCE they just used 5 common-length vowels in the Attic alphabet. Something similar applies to the (misunderstood IMHO) notion of melodic vs dynamic accent. A τόνος is etymologically related to "tension" and tension needs effort. Now, how this effort is applied and what it results to can be both louder/softer, slower/faster and higher/lower in Fº and it seems they paid more attention to the frequency characteristics than the dynamic ones then, in contrast to (much) later practice of giving precedence to the dynamic difference this tension produces. Modern Greek speech differentiates accented syllables in both frequency and loudness, only we learn that "accents mean 'say it louder' " at school, focusing our attention to this and not the whole "melody" of speech... And pointing to this are also interjections of pain, emergency etc. which are (by the proponents of a sole "melodic accent" view) notated in the same system, but everyone knows that when a person calls for help (e.g.) s/he doesn't "sing" it like under "normal" conditions.
But, I wouldn't confuse modern notions of "efficiency" in language with what spontaneously led to the creation of ancient languages. We have no reason to believe in ancient linguistic engineering, be it only on the fact that ancient "grammars" were just descriptive and not prescriptive. At least regarding Ancient Greek.
@@Podium-arts Thanks for your response! My turn, again, to compose a wall of text.
With what you said in mind, do you think it feasible that ancient Greeks were able to speak this language faster than you did in this recording and still maintain all phonological distinctions? Perhaps our modern sense of time is much faster than that of our ancestors, so what I'd consider wasted time they wouldn't perceive as such. On that note, do we have any evidence of Sandhi in ancient Greek and to what extent that type of pronunciation, if it existed, deviated from formal speech? Because in modern Greek we can end up making certain groups of words almost unintelligible to their formal counterparts, such as the famous /zga'dapsks/ versus the formal /stiŋ ka'tapsiksi/. To be clear, I'm not referring to slight changes in speech that led to the evolution of pronunciation of the language overall but a parallel pronunciation system that eliminated the obvious (in my eyes) complexity of formal speech for the sake of everyday discussion.
As for accents in Greek, I don't quite share the view that in modern Greek we pronounce accented syllables slightly longer than unaccented ones. I certainly don't do that, not consistently at least - though I understand that personal experience isn't a valid argument. I still don't understand how accent worked in ancient Greek; was it a pitch accent like in Mandarin? So the oxeia was an upward pitch, the bareia a downward pitch, the perispomene a constant high pitch and everything else a constant low pitch? I've no clue.
Lastly, I did not mean that language was consciously engineered. My hypothesis was that the reason ancient languages are so complex is because they didn't have enough time to be adjusted to the needs of their speakers. Languages, it seems to me, become more analytic by the time and more aspects of it are conveyed by contextual clues rather than directly through grammatical or phonological features. If a modern Greek can understand the difference between όμως and ώμος even if both are pronounced /'omos/, that means that modern Greek is superior to ancient Greek because it is simpler to speak while being just as good at conveying information, which is the goal of language. Moreover, ancient Greek had already lost its locative case (I think it had one, like in the word aθήναζε) by the Classical times and modern Greek eventually lost its ancestor's dative case, so it's fair to say that we never needed those cases to begin with. And I don't think it's just a language adapting to its time but truly becoming better, i.e. increasing the ratio of information per ease of use.
My bottom line is that, assuming the reconstruction is accurate, Ancient Greek was a pretty bad language. Sure, it sounds and looks interesting, but language is a tool, not art (well, except for artistic conlangs, but I'm discussing natlangs here). I wonder, is there such an assessment by expert linguists? I mean the idea that language becomes better over time.
Yes, if I can speak it faster they absolutely could do it too :-D
To speak in long (as distinct from short) syllables is very common, even today, almost everywhere. We just don't pay attention to it in modern Greek, like it happens with the tonal prosody (which as mentioned before, we count as "louder" only). Sandhi also existed "then", τράπεζα comes from τετράπεζα ( = 4 legs) e.g. and much more, also crasis and elision show that. Proclitics & enclitics do just that etc.
The closest we have of everyday speech are the texts of comedies. I suppose no one cared to write down trivial matters. But any way, the surviving texts seem to be "serious" and "official" to us today, but it's possible that that was just the general way of speaking.
Accented syllables are most of the time pronounced longer in modern Greek and already mentioned by grammarians of ±3-4 century CE. Spectrometers show that this is almost always the case in modern Greek at least.
Accents were described as acute (high, or going upwards), depending on the duration of the syllable (as I deduct from my practice), circumflex was going up then down (and the opposite too); the grave was doing everything, going down, staying the same, or going slightly upwards. They called it a "syllabic accent". Aristotle (and others) mention a "middle" accent, most probably meaning the register one speaks without emphasis. Critias(?) of Samos mentions 6 accents and others 5 or 4, with their names which made clear what these accents symbolise for pronunciation.
Superiority is judged by a set of criteria and rules which change with time, environment etc. so wouldn't really make this comparison with languages. As long as a method of comunication is acceptable by the users it's OK (for them).
Location was denoted by -θεν, -δε, -φι/σι/θι, so I don't know if we should count that as a case.
Tools are used for everything and as life itself is an art... you understand my "logic"
Πάντα εὔηχος!
Μοῦ κόπηκε κι ὁ βῆχας...
Via Latinam
:-)