Tuning the ND Miata made easy (how much faster is it?)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ก.ค. 2024
- Our ND Miata has already been tuned, but it could be better.
The car is currently running a VersaTuner Pops&Crackles map, an HKS exhaust, Hooker header, and some slow winter tires. Today we get 0-60, 1/4 mile, and 2nd gear sweep times to compare a couple of tunes to each other and establish a clear winner.
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Dude I had the same shitty experience with BBR and Fab9. I have also been working with Adam and he has done some amazing work on my car 👍🏽
+1 for team CleaR
love the miata content, I have an ND myself
Thanks man!
You gonna get out and do stuff this race season? STR autox is where it's at
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Now it’s time for an HKS supercharger!
If I could commit to running in a class that allows it, I'd definitely consider it
you the best dawg
No u
Legally obligated, eh?
This was fun to watch. I dunno if I'll ever tune my NC Club. It's my daily and I'm pretty satisfied with it. Gonna take it for its first track day once the weather is nicer and see how things go from there.
Even for a daily driver (mine is too and I drive hundreds of miles a week), the stock tune just leaves so much on the table in terms of usable around-town power. You could definitely make it more rowdy without affecting any kind of drivability. I'm not sure who to reach out to as a specialist on the NC, but I highly recommend asking around and considering it.
The NC responds pretty nicely to a tune also, I've done some work with that car too, it's just not my main focus at the moment.
Main things I found are:
- Fuel usage is crazy at high throttle. The engine runs very rich (lots of fuel being injected) and this does rob power too. Correcting that makes the engine run more crisply and improves power.
- All of the spark timing tables benefit from being smoothed, this helps the response and driveability of the car, plus a slight benefit to fuel economy for normal / general driving.
- There is a very odd behaviour in the stock Mazda tune which only allows 60% throttle in 2nd gear up to 5000rpm. It gives you 100% from 6000rpm and up. This "limiter" isn't there in the other gears. Removing that helps a bunch!
- Throttle response is very muted as standard, bumping and smoothing that, while not giving it more power that would display on a dyno, makes the car feel a lot more lively to drive.
Hope you enjoy the track - honestly once you get bitten by that bug there will be plenty of other areas to spend your money on, haha, but it you do fancy a tune feel free to give me a shout, always happy to help 👍
Love the ND's Been working on mine for awhile, hoping to get my 0-60s into the mid 4s with decent tyres with the v6
The v6 swap is an awesome setup, I've seen some good ecoboosts too
It's a shame these just didn't get the power they deserve, I'm not asking for it to be a C5Z or anything, but the Civic made more power than this in 2003
I would of kept the stock engine in mine if the rod didn't come out of the block, engines were too expensive at the time, was cheaper to swap a different engine into it lol@@redhenracing2
I'm a fellow youtuber as well with an ND2 Miata, and I 100% agree about the Fab9 tune. Nice to see your findings.
Definitely give Adam a holler. My neighbors are very glad he got rid of the cold start idle, and the around-town usable torque difference is insane.
@@redhenracing2 r u going to Miatas at the gap this year?
@@WorkzGarage absolutely, we had a blast last year. I have only posted some drone footage from it, I need to actually go through some of the runs and meets
@redhenracing2 I'm going to. This will be my first year. Do you drive your Miata or trailer it?
@@WorkzGarage we would trailer, the drive from Minnesota is miata-prohibitive with a 1-year-old
I am quite curious to see those numbers! I have a versa tune come in and like your previous experience, I am weary of using them for a tune. So I may hit up Adam for a tune for sure!
Give him a shout, he can work a lot of neat options in there. The VT basemap is a good start, but not nearly as refined and personalized as what Adam can cook up for you
Also intrigued to see some numbers! Bizarrely though, sometimes the numbers don't tell the whole story. I have customers who have run tunes back to back, with one feeling much smoother and faster than the other on the road - and hard data just like Gavyn's testing confirming this - yet they both make the same power (to within the accuracy of the equipment) on a dyno.
I am unsure of the exact reason for this, but one of my theories lies in that the engine is effectively a big lump of inertia. When it starts rotating, it wants to keep rotating. A really smooth tune will keep the rate of change of acceleration (whether that is up or down) really linear, and continually in the same direction, whereas one that's not so smooth will vary the rate at which it is requesting the engine to speed up or slow down, and a bad one might even request a brief spell of slight deceleration when it's meant to be accelerating, and vice versa.
The result? I find the 'lumpy' tunes don't drive as well on the road, with the engine frequently being told to 'speed up, slow down, speed up, slow down' rather than consistently one or the other, depending on what your right foot is doing.
I have probably explained that really badly, haha. Somebody pull me up if you tried to understand what I meant and couldn't!
I'm a real nerd about this and spend a disproportionate amount of time starting at 18x20 tables full of numbers to 3 decimal places in order to get these small details right. I've even gone as far as creating spreadsheets to graphically represent the data so I can view and smooth it more easily, and writing macros to computer generate improved values.
There are 8+ of these tables on the ND - 1st through to 6th gear each have their own table, neutral has its own, so does reverse, and there's an extra one for the ND2 which governs overall throttle body opening percentage related to speed and acceleration request. It's a lot of cells to manipulate (9 x 18 x 20... you can do the math) but well worth it in my opinion because the car drives so much smoother - and is therefore faster in the real world.
Gavyn's just had an updated tune with some more smoothing applied, keen to see what the feedback is!
What wheels are you running? Thanks for all the info, I've read a lot of similar things about Fab9 sadly.
These are Fifteen52 Turbomacs, took a while to find a set in 4x100. They're a 17x8+40, if I recall correctly
With a company doing business on as large a scale as they do, there will always be plenty of both satisfied and unsatisfied customers. It's part of the game 🤷
I’m in the process of buying a 2023 Miata with a versitune on it. It also has hooker headers, muffler and sound tube delete. It is 10 months old with just 3300 miles on it. I’m just worried that if there are ever any engine problems, unless I put everything back to stock, the dealership might know the ecu has been messed with and won’t honor the 5 year powertrain warranty. Plus state smog test in 4 years.
Sorry, but even if you put it back to stock and re-flash the stock tune, they can see that it has been flashed. I seriously wouldn't stress about it at all, these things are incredibly reliable
Curious if you plan on getting updated dyno numbers on this tune?
I’m running the Fab9 N1 93 Oct tune on my stock ND2 and love it. I’m surprised with your negative experience with Fab9 but sounds like this new tune is really working for you 👍🏼
I never tried their 93, it isn't widely available in rural Minnesota. They're a popular company, just didn't work with my setup for whatever reason 🤷
I'm planning to do an intake before long, since they're rather controversial on these cars, and once we see some revised logs with it we will go get new dyno numbers
@@redhenracing2 Have you seen the SPS intake suction kit for the stock air box? Looks really well thought out and combined with a K&N panel filter, could be an interesting combo
I'm still looking through options and the SPS setup is one of the better ones for sure, I think the Takeda is my favorite though
@@redhenracing2 Would be really happy to work with you again for some intake testing, if you like. There's lots of chat online about them for this specific car, but not much actual data showing the potential benefits and pitfalls, so I think a video around this could be interesting and informative.
A couple of small nuggets of info I can add for now, though:
1) Under normal running conditions, the stock intake system leaves air temperatures at the engine sitting around 7 degrees celcius higher than ambient. It's actually pretty damn good. This means any intake claiming it can drop temps by 15 degrees is either packed full of a never-ending supply of dry ice or the claims are... optimistic.
2) Moving the MAF sensor location within the intake pipework, changing the pipework into which the MAF is fitted, or swapping out the stock airbox for something else throws the MAF data out of sync with what the ECU is expecting.
Some people have intakes fitted and don't notice a problem, as the car will cope with quite a lot of adjustment to fuelling automatically, but doing any of the above 3 things to the intake system does hurt performance / smoothness and a tune can sort that out.
Hello, though I'm here for the tune info, please tell me what phone holder are you using? thank you
Hi! I use this mount, with a PopSocket clip attached to it. This mount from ProClip is a great base to give you a flat mounting surface for any type of phone holder, whether you use the ProClip one or not.
www.proclipusa.com/collections/dashboard-mounts-mazda-mx-5-2019
Do you know if this 2.0L ND2 tune will be available for versatune? I wonder if having a stock exhaust header would have similar results. I have a GWR super street exhaust and have been looking over the available tuning options for some time.
Yes, CleaR Motorsport has a VT license and all of my tunes are flashed using it.
I guarantee Adam can come up with something perfect for your setup, shoot him an email at clearmotorsport@gmail.com
Howdy John! I have a good friend over here who is running that exact combination, and have spent a lot of time tweaking away developing a tune on his car. That was the basis for a bunch of the knowledge that went into Gavyn's tune.
The ND2 2L is a really well optimised package as standard, but there are still some useful power gains to be had providing you have access to high quality fuel. On top of that, response, smoothness and general eagerness to accelerate can be improved too. Overrun noises aren't as pronounced with the standard header, the cat seems to swallow up the sound - also not really recommended as it will reduce the life of the cat.
Really happy to chat about the possibilities if you wanted to get in touch. Cheers 👍😎
Thanks for the response here guys, the best fuel I have available is 91 octane - I'll send you an e-mail and we can take it from there! @@CleaR-Motorsport
@johndogg47 very welcome, look forward to hearing from you!
I also didn't have the best experience with fab9, I was trying to get a base map setup for my turbo na so that they could tune it, 4 emails in I never got another reply. At that point I just tuned the car myself and have been alright for the last 20k
It happens, they do a LOT of business so there are gonna be some people here and there who weren't satisfied 🤷
I have had bad experiences. With FAB9 as well, had to buy AVOs flash tune tablet to run my turbocharged ND.
Interesting, you used a tablet to run VersaTune instead of a laptop?
Being boosted definitely creates some other complications, though
The tablet comes with tunes for non turbo engines but if you need one for a turbo you email them and they give you a base map to upload to the tablet that plugs into the car, they ask you to do a idle, cruise, and wide open throttle LOG using versa tuner or any logging software and they send a revision if necessary. There tune does not require a 3bar MAP sensor that the B.B.R kit requires. From what I hear 8 psi of boost is the most a non built engine can handle and that's about 250 hrs and 250 trq. and flying Miata claims its pretty reliable as long as you do 3000 mile oil changes. I use 93 octane and silver tip racing spark plugs gaped to .8mm to help prevent pre detonation.
Yeah, that's just all too tedious to only run 8 pounds. I daily drive way too much (like 4k a month) to deal with the headache, when a full STR prep is perfectly streetable.
It's a shame these engines are not only underpowered, but also not able to handle any boost.
Yeah they were mostly designed for efficiency.
Thanks for the review and content. As a current ND owner and a former 85 p type owner this channel strangely and specifically hits very close to home.
Curious if you tried xero limit at all? I had good experiences with Mike on my old NC but am currently on OFT with my ND.
Thanks man, glad to have you! The Supra is actually in the garage getting a big lighting upgrade for the next rally.
I have not even heard of them honestly. NCs have grown on me though, what made you go from it to an ND?
@@redhenracing2 Xero Limit used to be MotoEast. They were one of three main tuners for the NC. I didn't initially realize they tuned NDs too when I got mine, hence why I went with OFT.
I switched from the NC to the ND due to a hit and run. Otherwise I'd still have it. This was 2020.
@@stealthjackson1 how did you get a tune from xero limit? Did you have to go there in-person or can they do emailed files?
@@Accost2u Xero Limit can tune remotely, via email. Just go to their site and see what they offer and then you can purchase a tune from them and give them your logging details and they can get something optimized for your car
1:43 Yes. Yes indeed!🤪🤣🤘🏼
She’s becoming a monster 🥲🥹
It certainly holds its own, this track season is gonna be a good one!
@@redhenracing2 u gonna be at POR rally this year
Absolutely, the Supra is back roadworthy and getting lots of updates and maintenance. She'll be good for it, I have to show @sealedbeamrallyteam his weird flat engine is on the wrong end of the car
What short shifter is that?
@@mr.adventure559 CAE Ultra, the longest shortest shifter
Any word on this lad tuning supercharged ND1s?
You know, it never came up. Definitely worth giving him a holler though!
clearmotorsport@gmail.com
Thanks for the mention Gavyn!
I haven't done any SC tuning on this engine yet, been focusing on getting N/A dialled.
While it looks straightforward (moreso than a turbo) from looking at the tables in the software - which are actually already set up nicely for boosted applications - it's something I'd ideally rather not experiment with on a customer car. However, in the interests of development and stretching the grey matter, I'd be really happy to see a log of the current setup and try writing a tune for you, if you wish. No charge of course, just interested to see how it goes. I've heard of various setups having part throttle running issues and have ideas about why that's happening.
I'm having issues with FAB9 right now as well... Possibly looking for something else- = (
clearmotorsport@gmail.com is the contact you're looking for.
I also thought about giving XERO LIMIT INC. a try too- heard good things but plan is to go 93/E85… Would love a true ND2 Flex Solution.
@@senfing Adam has some great ideas on flex as well, it's definitely worth reaching out to him just to ask what he thinks about what you're trying to achieve!
@@redhenracing2will do, as that sounds amazing! Appreciate the vids as always and love love the channel…
@@senfing thanks man, don't forget to tell him I sent you for a discount!
Have you considered turbocharging/Turbo?
As much as I'd love to, it would significantly trash any competitive autocross classing and be nothing but disadvantages for this car as my daily.
The Supra will be the fast thing (eventually), still haven't decided which swap to go with on it. Talk me out of an LS 🤣
@@redhenracing2hard no on that one. LS content, please! ❤
@@CleaR-Motorsport unless you have a tune ready for a 5m-ge with low compression and a collection of oil leaks, it may soon be a reality
@@redhenracing2 You can just stick the Miata tune on there dude, that will speed up the LS installation requirement 🙃
Lets go
Ugh... I just got this tune as well. I grew up in the cities and run with the SCCA group in La Crosse/Winona. I hadn't driven the car over winter and when I drove this new tune I literally thought "meh". Between you and the Lemon Factor channel, I have seen zero gains. We also do not have 93 here other than 1 station, so that may be the issue.
If you are tuned and can't tell a difference from stock, something is definitely not optimized. You should get in touch with Adam at clearmotorsport@gmail.com and get it sorted
I'm just glad you are on the same struggle. I am an STR autocrosser as well, so your videos help! I may reach out to Brian Karwan and see if he is tuning Versatuner. He is the top of the STR game and is one of the best vendors I have dealt with. @@redhenracing2
@bobo2186 sorry to hear of your experiences! 'Meh' is not fun after spending cash and waiting all winter to try it out.
If you like, I'd be happy to take a look at some logs and figure out / explain to you what's happened. Pretty sure I already know, and that it was the same thing for Gavyn, but it would be interesting for me to find out for sure - and that would be all the compensation I'd need.
I've a set of datalogging instructions and settings I can send over if you require 👍 And of course no hard feelings if you don't want to! Cheers.
@@CleaR-Motorsport Yea, I'd be interested in that. I plan on driving it for a couple more weeks just to see, but I will reach out to you on your website. Thanks!
@bobo2186 pleasure! Feel free to gimme a shout whenever you're ready 👍
Hmm, retune the stock CR-V or the Silverado?
If we're talking something LS based, give her a new bump-stick and some chop ASAP
What gen CRV do you have? I had a second gen, K24 5-speed, that was lifted on 33s like a big stupid idiot
@@redhenracing2 It's a 2017 CR-V with CVT, so getting it to rumble and pop would be hilarious. You'll probably see it at a rally this summer!
@@redhenracing2 and both are over 100,000 miles, so no need to worry about warranty!
What events are you lining up for this year? The only things on my radar are Green Heck and POR, the rest is all autox stuff I'm signed up for
@@redhenracing2 Badger Burrow for sure, the rest are depending on other schedules. May try to line up Green Heck.
I’ve had iffy tuning experiences on other cars…I tend to avoid tuning now unless there’s a huge upside.
It seems like tuning isn’t real great for the NDs, there’s not many tuners and it seems like the ND2 motor doesn’t leave much on the table. Especially when you consider the $ per HP ratio
I’m no tree hugger, but ditching a primary cat on a daily driver to gain maybe 10whp isn’t worth it to me.
E85 makes some pretty decent gains, but unless you swap the injectors they have to limit the redline to around 7k…kinda defeats the point of an ND2 lol
Glad you got it sorted…remote tuning is annoying….
Did you end up getting a ticket despite it being for science? 😂
I argue the contrary, we went from 151 stock to 169 on just the basemap with headers, and this I'm sure is breaking 170 with substantially more area under the curve. Plus better throttle response, getting rid of the loud cold start idle, and a higher redline. All while maintaining stock fuel economy and drivability? It's the best bang for your buck you can get on this car.
Our oem midpipe/primary cat is untouched. The headers only removed the pre-cat, allowing for more power and much better sound
Adam and CleaR Motorsport make the remote tuning process as easy and painless as possible
And no, just a warning 🤣 She had better things to deal with than 77 in a 60 in the middle of nowhere, I suppose
@@redhenracing2 are you going to have it dyno’d again? Glad you’re happy with it!
Wonder if it would still pass emissions?
If I ever do get it tuned, definitely go with him. I’m hesitant to add power given how fragile the ND trans can be even at stock powers. Seems like they either explode early or they last forever lol.
I wish there was a flex fuel system available, I’d absolutely do a header & injectors with an e85 tune. I daily too many miles to want to reduce my range and have to live at the gas station or swap tunes constantly lol
Ha ha ha right on!
We will be getting new dyno numbers at some point, I'm just not sure if I want to do it in the current configuration or after we test and readjust for an intake. Not really looking to do both, it's rather expensive, but in the interest of being thorough we may need to
I'm lucky enough to not know anything about emissions, and I wouldn't care to run flex either. My average commute is 75-200 miles on any given day, and it's hard to find anything more than 91 or e15 in most of Minnesota.
Luckily no trans issues yet, gotta keep launching harder I guess 🤞
@@redhenracing2 I feel ya, I appreciate your videos, lots of good info
I’m curious if there are any improvements with an intake on the ND2. GWR’s testing was on an ND1 which doesn’t breathe as well… it’s probably small gains if any on the ND2…
Yeah…I commute roughly 100 miles a day 3 days a week…there is an e85 station (well it’s actually like e50) right by my house…but I’d probably get like 200-250 mile range. A tank barely makes it the week as is lol. Sucks nobody makes a flex fuel sensor, they made them for the first gen 86s. No need to worry about switching maps, just fill it up with whatever mixture.
9:21 did you get a ticket or warning?😂 how bad were you blowing the limit lmao
Just a warning for 77 in a 60, she was oncoming as I crested a hill slowing down from one of the quarter-mile pulls 🤣
@@redhenracing2my man hahah love it
Are you ND1 or ND2? If ND2 let me know
ND2
If interested, I'm like 161 flashes in, I log at like 120 unique samples per second for like 200 MB of CSV every day and flash just about every day. Versatuner. No header on my 2023 RF GTS yet, but a JDL 4-2-1 going in soon. I'll be happy to send a file if you want to give it a try. Not sure if you saw my posts on miata net, but I was posting under Out 4 A Rip on my ND1, my 330+ WHP ND1 with built everything, Walter Motorsports stage 3 NC2/3 trans and built differential, BBR internals on the engine
@@IsaacRodman how much boost were you running to make 330?
@@redhenracing2 about 15 PSI, if I recall, GTX2860R 2nd JDL kit. Engine was 11.5:1 pistons
Verified tune. Can do 60mph and tear up these roads while being beaten by a Sooper Dooty with a V plow.
RiPpiN ArOuNd aT SIXTEE miLeS aN HoUr
Tuna, no crust
You should email Adam to see if he could tune the corvair
No one likes the tuna here!