So what he is saying is that the gestures in each cave are arranged in a random order? But he also said they were randomized?? Ugh this is so complicated. But I want to try to understand my favorite games music
@@bergermeistermeisterburger no, but it was only ever brought up and gained it’s popularity from Pikmin 4, and scruffy using it so casually means that he expects you to know about Pikmin 4 somewhat
@@bergermeistermeisterburger The developers said in an interview about Pikmin 4 that they used the term internally between them in the development of Pikmin 3 to refer to the gameplay, but it was ever only brought up to the public in 4.
What's interesting is how this system opts for slower music at low health, whereas most go for faster beats and high energy warning sounds. This creates a mood of attrition and exhaustion, less panic.
I find that slower music can create more panic as drastically slowing bpm can throw your rhythm off entirely making you quickly have to readjust or well, die
i've played Pikmin 2 literally 6 times and Pikmin 2 has literally one of my favorite OSTs... period. and NEVER knew about the "bringing more than 10 pikmin, but then having less than 10 pikmin" rule! kinda wish it'd just do that if you had less than 10 pikmin period so more people would get to experience that, that's a really neat touch!
Something else that I love about the Submerged Castles theme and the atmosphere it presents is that there is no rhythm change between Olimar and Louie. Normally Louie’s variations are more laid back and carefree to convey his personality traits. But not here. Even Louie is terrified.
I've actually learned 2 things from this video: A) the music in Pikmin 2 is WAY more complex than I originally thought, and B) there is a reason why Olimar123 changed all the Cave Theme names in the Pikmin 2 playlist.
Oh, small note about one of these parameters: at 7:36 you actually don't need to have brought more than ten Pikmin with you to experience this. You could bring in less than ten and experience this as long as you lose at least one.
I always found the Submerged Castle to be the scariest area, to the point that even today, I obsessively avoid it until I feel 100% ready for it. Even before I learned about the Water Wreath, it always felt so off and so terrifying, like I shouldn't be there and someone, or something, was going to make sure I leave and never come back. For me, music always affected how I reacted to a game, and the music for the castle must have really instilled that level of dread and fear into me!
@@problemsfan4132 omg for real?? That’s so flattering I’m 😭😭 Yeah I love scruffy’s stuff! He originally got me into taking video game OSTs seriously as a form of music!
7:50 this exact thing happened to me while playing through a randomized version of pikmin 2, and I thought it was the perplexing pool glitching out or something, turns out I just lost a ton of pikmin lol fantastic stuff as always :)
This type of dynamic music reminds me of one of my favourite type of TH-cam videos, oscilloscope deconstruction videos, where someone would extract music from games that used sequenced music (notably from consoles like the genesis and snes, although ds and a few wii tracks are also sequenced) and plays them in order. It really lets you appreciate some undersung melodies and tunes you wouldn’t have recognised subconsciously in the full song. I’d recommend anyone who’s interested in VGM composition to look at some of those videos, they’re really interesting!
@@Jongivitis he’s the main guy but I also like the work of MrOscillosocpe, PerfectDisharmony, Orj and plenty more in that communtiy, definitely worthwhile listens
Pikmin 2's music was the first time I actually paid attention to soundtrack in video games. I noticed that certain melodies would play when a boss attacked, and paid more attention to soundtrack ever since. It's been quite a few years, but I still pay attention to soundtrack in games.
Man the adaptive music was something a just took for granted when I was a kid since pikmin was one of the first games I played, but I just straight had no idea they made RANDOMIZED music. I mean come on, its so god damn well done I didn’t have a clue it was random
I knew that Pikmin music was adaptive, but I never knew how in-depth the system for cave music really was! When you pointed out that the melody itself was randomly laid out, my mind was blown. Pikmin is my favorite game series and I’m still learning new things about it to this day. Thank you for teaching me something new, this is easily one of my new favorite videos on your channel!
I never knew the music was randomized, I thought at most it just picked a random start and had reused motifs in the song but this makes me appreciate the cave music a lot more... even if I still would never choose to listen to most of it outside of the context of the game itself, I at least know how it got to be that way lol.
Deep dives like this really leave me in awe of the creativity, but mostly commitment and determination of those who make these sort of large effort, minimalist impact details. How many people have we all met who would bin this system at the first hurdle and justify it by saying "nobody would even notice anyway"? But those fellas kept on for their own fulfilment of adding those extra subtle layers that subconsciously seep into the players' experience. I wish I could be that passionate about something.
I started playing through pikmin 1&2 a few days ago and found myself wondering why I don’t remember the pikmin 2 music as fondly or maybe at all nearly as much as I remember pikmin 1’s music as a kid, this blew my mind and explains it perfectly!
I played Pikmin 2 so much growing up that I knew something was special about the music, but I didn’t realize it went this far! Reminds me of how the original System Shock handled its music, though most of it seems lost to time.
That Submerged Castle visual is incredibly well put together, and uniquely, utterly horrifying. I love it! This video is a fascinating watch, and the editing and presentation of the many systems at play, as well as the extensive research into the sources for each of the samples and synths they come from, is worth applause. Excellent work!
I love the visuals you use for these videos, you clearly put so much work into them. You just don’t see effort like that on many other TH-cam channels.
I never knew about the 10 pikmin rule oh my! This was so amazing to watch, I still listen to the pikmin2 caves frequently while I work or whatever though I guess I usually don't get a fresh generation. Amazing video and amazing game ^-^
@@distantsails I don't know?, Been watching scruffy for like at least 6 years I think and Pikmin2 is one of my favorite games. Who is this why the confusion?
This video is incredible Scruffy! I only thought that the "relax" song that plays during the rest floor was procedurally generated! No idea it applied to almost every cave theme! I have already shown your Pikmin 3 Boss Battle Adaptive Music to several friends already because it was so well made! Now I can show them this one too!
My guess for why the organ MIDIs went unused is that they would’ve been added during boss fights but were cut when the proper boss track took their place. The organ is a dominate instrument in pikmin 1s emperor Bulbax theme (from what I remember pikmin 1s only dedicated boss theme) so it would make sense they’d carry that signature over, at least at initially. This could also explain the greater amount of patterns and why the organs sound harsher then the rest of the MIDIs, they were designed to score a caves final challenge and to put the player on edge.
AAAAAA I'VE LITERALLY BEEN RESEARCHING/WRITING AN ESSAY ON THIS EXACT TOPIC FOR MONTHS. Needless to say, this is a VERY exciting video to see. You explain everything incredibly digestibly as always, and there's so much attention to detail here. Major kudos!
Nice, continue with that, I'd love to hear what you find out about that, There is stuff not mentioned here, like the randomized melody of Bulblax Kingdom. Still a lot to uncover there!
Even knowing this about the music, seeing it broken down makes pikmin 2s caves so much more special, it all just adds to the magic that came together with pikmin 1 and 2, because theres just something about the first two that 3 and 4 have yet to really recapture and its not nostalgia because after 100%ing 4 (and to a greater extent 3) i cant really see myself going back to it unless theres dlc, while i can always go back and re 100% pikmin 2. the new ones are just missing something and i honestly think it might be both difficulty and the music, because after thinking the music was lack luster throughtout all of 4, hearing the rest floor theme right before the final boss just made me stop in my tracks and sit there for awhile and put everything into prospective.
The thing about notes missing when your pikmin number lowers back below 10 really blew my mind! I never noticed it outright but I remember getting this weird "empty" feeling when I lost many pikmin. It was definitely a downer, like "is it even worth it to keep going?" I love the music in Pikmin 2 even more now, I never really pay attention to it while playing because it flows so perfectly with everything happening in-game, it makes me really "feel" the music more than listen to it! It made a huge impression on me as a kid
the fact that the last content here was pikmin 4 and they jumped back to 2 means they /might/ be brewing something bigger on pikmin later? or not. either is fine. its just very warming to be educated by someone just as or more passionate about something than you. also i want scruffy to have more excuses to nerd out over the game that fans waited so long for. passion/love/Special Interest that makes anyone that happy feels like a salve to all the Bad thats been swarming lately.
This is all so amazing. The idea that the music of this game can be so complex brings literal tears to my eyes. Absolutely Beautiful. Pikmin 2 is my favorite game of all time.
I'm not in a good place right now but hearing your voice is really helping. You have a very soothing voice and I love music and sound in video games. This kind of content is an excellent escape for me. I hope you know how much of a positive impact you have on viewers! Thank you. 💙
It’s so crazy that this game is 20 years old now and we’re still finding out how the music of this game responds to the player in their current circumstance. I love watching these types of videos you make. Especially the Pikmin ones as it’s a childhood favourite. Thank you scruffy. 🤝
my eyes lit up like an old person hearing their favourite song and they jump out of their deep reclining chair to let out a little jig when i saw this video. love you scruffy
Pikmin got my favorite adaptive music ever, but I had NO idea Pikmin 2 cave music was this complex! Let alone randomly arranged. Thank you for this video! I LOVE it!
What I've give to get the sheet music for the rest area sublevel, there is something magical about that kind of calmness in the midlist of the chaos of the rest of the cave levels
This is utterly insane, i knew pikmin 2's music was adaptive but i had no idea it was this like. Aleatoric?? Really impressive visuals, helped explain it super clearly
I've been playing pikmin 2 through my entire childhood, and still play it from time to time in my adulthood especially with the mod milestones of endless abyss, and colossal cavern I loved every track, (except submerged castle for obvious PTSD reasons lol) but my entire life I always thought the music was sequenced, and just simply layered for the other events. this opens up and entire new WORLD of appreciation and wonder to pikmin 2's music, and I will be listening info it the next time I play it I've always loved your videos centered around one of my favorite game series' and this just proves it more. 💚💚
... I'm realizing more and more just how common systems like this were in games I enjoyed. As a little tyke, I obsessed over SPORE and it's comprehensive editors, but always felt a little bummed that I couldn't find an official soundtrack anywhere to play during my bus rides home from school. Lo and behold, I learned many years later that the reason for that was because the game was full of adaptive, procedural music, most likely to reflect the nature of the game's little procedural universe itself. (... I wonder if anyone's done a rundown on that in depth, actually...) Thank you so much for another fantastic rundown, Scruffy. Your use of visuals is not only entertaining, but deeply appreciated by me, a visual learner. It really helps me understand the detail you're describing by providing adorable examples I can play with in my mind. :D
I thought I knew this game pretty well. The fact that after all these years I never noticed the music was randomly generated was like a slap across the face, telling me I knew nothing.
I've been looking on and off for years, but I'm pretty sure it's been deleted- there used to be a video on TH-cam that was just a rip of Mystic Marsh/flooded stump, and in the description the person who uploaded it mentioned how they had left their gamecube on for a while in this sublevel and after a long time of doing nothing the music started go get messed up- like the order of notes and everything, and in the video description they even tried to transcribe how some of the notation glitched and became entirely randomized. It's been on my mind ever since and I've always been fascinated by how the music in Pikmin 2 works- thanks for making this! (and if anyone knows the OG video i'm thinking of, please let me know!!)
As a huge fan of Pikmin 2's music, I loved this video. Was unaware of the unused organ track for Soil 1, I don't recall it being documented anywhere so it was very cool to hear. Nor was I aware that all of Wakai's songs had unused Spiderwort synths, I thought it was just Valley of Repose. Also, the recontextualisation of gestures between different songs? Had no idea about that, and it really makes me appreciate Pikmin 2's cave music even more than I already did. Side note, is there anywhere I can listen to the unused tracks, like the aforementioned organ and spiderwort mixes? Makes me wish there was some sort of online tool for Pikmin 2's cave music.
@WafflesMoguMogu Ah, there they are! Seems to be a more recent addition, which is why I haven't seen it 'til now. Added in October by... hey, wait a minute! (Always nice to discover something new about one of my favourite games, thanks for documenting it!)
Little bit of feedback: Giving a small padding at the bottom to all the graphics and texts you put on screen helps them to not clash with the captions and makes for a better experience for a bunch of people that need them to appreciate the video. Specially important for text that covers only the bottom middle of the screen, like "Gesture #" at 6:55. Yours videos are always absolutely delightful to watch.
I'm so so so so so glad you did a video on Pikmin 2's cave music!! I've raved about this topic to friends for YEARS and now I have a video I can give them to explain it better than I ever could!!! My personal favorite cave music is the main track used in Bulblax Kingdom, which constructs a procedurally generated military march to capture the imposing nature of raiding a nest of enemy Bulborbs and Bulblaxes. I don't know the exact specifics but I think the track is comprised of 8 bars of melody, which is sub-divided into a bar of "call" and a bar of "response" repeated 4 times, placing a randomly selected "call" measure and "response" measure each time. After 8 bars of melody, you get 4 bars of just a resonating bell and a marching snare drum, which creates a lot of space in tension in the composition. I love this game and its music so much man.
I just about finished a music theory class that, I was in part inspired to take by your old videos. it's crazy coming back to some of these and understanding basically everything now (even noticing flaws! that pikmin voice video, you said C4 but the note on screen was C5!), those alternating diminished chords is an insane way of conveying direness. I knew pikmin 2 music was cool but procedurally generated music is something else. they really cared about atmosphere more than any other game I can think of.
damn, i knew pikmin 2 had the adaptive music all over it but didnt know about it being procedurally generated thats so cool for a game that came out in 2004
Its impressive. The sheer amount of work and detail that goes into games like this that are meant primarily for kids to enjoy (adults do, can and should play them too of course) is astonishing. i certainly didn't notice this stuff when i played pikmin 2 as a child but as an adult going through these games again has given me a deeper appreciation for the work that went into this stuff. That, and your very clear and informative videos. thanks for another awesome video scruffy
Just found your channel thru this vid, and i gotta say, I loved every second! This is probably one of my top ten fav youtube videos of all time. Seriously. Your presentation and research were off the charts good, and I loved getting to learn more about one of my favorite games ever. Definitely subscribing.
This was fascinating! I had no idea how it all worked, but it makes a lot of sense when you explained it because you can hear specific snippets that you know and have heard a bunch of times before, but they never were the same melody overall. So it always was memorable in it's "feel" even if the song itself was always changing. For instance: With usual music, if you hear it enough times, you memorize it and know what comes next so you can hum to it. So when in a long cave of the same types of floors, you can hear something that is familiar, expect something to come after it, but it doesn't. Makes' you think you remembered wrong, until you notice it again and again and then try to figure out how it works, consciously or subconsciously. A neat thing that many players may not notice too is that because they are "expecting" a certain part to play out a certain way, they might actually be creating their own music in their head. Like a composition only they themselves can hear. Overall, this is incredibly fitting for the roguelike style of the caves because the layout of ones you have been to before you would only "think" you know, until it's different and you go: "Oh...". But that's something you'd only notice on multiple plays on the same cave or cave level. It may not even be immediately noticable at first as some floors are much simpler in potential layout than others and thus blend together in memories. It's a really neat and well thought out!
I had no idea Pikmin 2 had procedural cave music. I love that so much. More games need to do it! Very lovely video as usual, Scruffy! I love yours tuff a lot
So glad you brought up the submerged castle. I remember I was playing it for the first time with a friend who had played it before. He said I should go there because it's a "definitive Pikmin 2 experience" I remember when I first went in there I heard the music, looked back at him and said "there's something uniquely evil about this cave specifically" and 5 minutes later was proven very very right. Good times.
I thought they were randomized in some way and sounded like weird but beautiful messes. Thank you for the hardwork of breaking down the system in an easy to digest way. I'll for sure wear headphones the next time I play pikmin 2 so I can really appreciate the sound design.
I've played through pikmin 2 probably nearly a dozen times, and I never noticed the music was random! I always thought it was just eclectic! Great explanation of how this works :)
I was obsessed for days with how the music worked on this game and watched Waffles' videos a lot, nice to see them playing a big part of the creation of this video
I never realized how complex and intricate the sound engineering was! That was super fascinating, love me some adaptive music. I know some super obvious ones like DK 64 or Banjo Kazooie where you go underwater and it goes all muffled, but to hear the extra step and beyond that these guys at Nintendo was able to achieve is very inspiring!
This is one of the coolest things I’ve ever learned about a game. You always talk about topics in such a relaxing way, and now I want to experience the Pikmin series because of this video. Also, I know for sure the water wraith would’ve kept me up at night when I was younger. What a cool concept for a cave!
Pikmin 2's always had my favorite soundtrack in mainstream video games, (Only outdone by Toby Fox's special brand) but I had zero clue about the adaptive music of caves going beyond additional instruments for different situations. Amazing.
There is a pattern I have noticed with the 4 (Not counting Hey! Pikmin or Pikmin bloom) pikmin games. The odd numbered games don’t have the caves, but the even ones do. Weird, huh?
I started replaying Pikmin 2 recently and noticed the layering of music in the caves after watching your Pikmin 3 video. It got me excited and I was really hoping to see a video on it. You do a great job breaking it down for the average viewer and animating it! Thanks for making an awesome video!
Wow, I never realized even the music in caves was a mix of multiple pre-made pieces! I was wondering though, is there any publicly available list or graphic for each song similarly to what's shown at 8:20?
Sent the thumbnail to my bf and he was like “that is custom content made specifically for you,” which is true, but also this was such a cool video! I knew Pikmin’s soundtrack was adaptive but I didn’t realize how complex and structured the algorithm for generating those adaptations in Pikmin 2 was. And like shout out to the composers of each piece for absolutely getting the assignment. A great and fun video, as always!
I had a feeling that the music would sound different every time! That's why! I'm not crazy! A great video as always! Otherwise unrelated but can I use your music "End of Day Medley" to make an animation? It inspires me a lot...
Metal 2, Concrete 3, Bulblax Kingdom, Frontier Cavern, Jellyfloat, and Flooded Stump are my favorites. I'm sad you didn't talk about how Louie changes the music when he's the main captain though. Maybe you could make an addendum, or a youtube short about it?
i've been enchanted by Pikmin 2's cave music ever since learning it was randomized (thanks olimar12345)! it's one of those experimental things that make the game so special
I never knew that the music peices were all randomized, and that if you lose pikmins, that some parts of it cuts out. Did you also notice that the music is distorted when a captain is hurt? Or that the "Pikmin working" theme from the "treasure" theme, if the captain is far enough from the treasure, that the "working" part is removed? Same occurence for the ennemies "near" and "combat". Honestly, I'm nowhere near a music expert, but I absolutely love the work made for it in Pikmin 2. My favorite musics also are Mystic Marsh (my all-time favorite), the Giant Breadbug's theme, Green Yards, Complex and Cautious Cavern and Bulblax Kingdom (that's a lot I know), but weirdly enough, only Olimar's side. I don't really like the stops of Louie's side.
What a beautiful explanation of a beautiful system. And to think you created motion graphics for the whole video including a custom water wraith chase sequence (!!!), it’s incredible. pure love
Pikmin music is my thing,i hope u learn something cool!
I just want to say thanks for all the free midi files you supply.
Truly a legend!
Thanks man.
For a newbie, this is really complicated stuff to remember. What is a gesture?
@@sadiethesmartie6893 a “gesture” is a what we use to describe a short, singular pattern/sequence of notes
So what he is saying is that the gestures in each cave are arranged in a random order? But he also said they were randomized?? Ugh this is so complicated. But I want to try to understand my favorite games music
"... the proper dandori"
was the first hint that this was, in fact, made in 2023 and not 6 years ago. That's how timeless this series is
was the term dandori only made with this year's game? Its the only pikmin game I've ever played
@@bergermeistermeisterburgeryes
@@bergermeistermeisterburger no, but it was only ever brought up and gained it’s popularity from Pikmin 4, and scruffy using it so casually means that he expects you to know about Pikmin 4 somewhat
@@bergermeistermeisterburger The developers said in an interview about Pikmin 4 that they used the term internally between them in the development of Pikmin 3 to refer to the gameplay, but it was ever only brought up to the public in 4.
As someone who has never played Pikmin 4 I was confused. The video needs some top text that says "TL note: dandori means plan".
What's interesting is how this system opts for slower music at low health, whereas most go for faster beats and high energy warning sounds. This creates a mood of attrition and exhaustion, less panic.
I find that slower music can create more panic as drastically slowing bpm can throw your rhythm off entirely making you quickly have to readjust or well, die
WE'RE SO BACK
i've played Pikmin 2 literally 6 times and Pikmin 2 has literally one of my favorite OSTs... period. and NEVER knew about the "bringing more than 10 pikmin, but then having less than 10 pikmin" rule! kinda wish it'd just do that if you had less than 10 pikmin period so more people would get to experience that, that's a really neat touch!
🤫 lil fella
I hope it's never joover
spotted
@@buttmigy8647🤓🤓🤓🤓
🤓🤓 leave him be
I knew Pikmin 2's music had two variants depending on whether you're playing as Olimar or Louie, but this is insane.
The Pikmin series really just said, #$&@ it, let’s make some of the most complex video game music ever and basically no one noticed for 20 years lol
Guess that shows that it was effective
I knew about most of this but the recycle of gestures actually surprised me, especially the metal 1 gestures.
Well, there was always the people who did custom stuff with the maps. And those who listened to Olimar12345's "complete" playlist.
I'm sayin. Nintendo was out here making innovations we still don't see and putting them on the game cube.
@@azureblooet5053fr
Your presentation is always top notch. The first-person water wraith chase was horrifying and a great illustration of why the music is so effective.
😦 YO JEHTT (I didn’t think I would find you here)
@@MoreGIGA_montyleaderI did
gonna have to do a Pikmin voice over now...
Something else that I love about the Submerged Castles theme and the atmosphere it presents is that there is no rhythm change between Olimar and Louie. Normally Louie’s variations are more laid back and carefree to convey his personality traits. But not here. Even Louie is terrified.
You know a game is good when Scruffy obsesses over its music
Fr
love it when subtile, yet excellent sound design is appreciated. pikmin 2 is ass tho
@@okay510nuh uh
@@okay510 what did you just say about pikmin 2????
And then there's Pikmin 2, ngl, this video has made me appreciate it just a bit more.
I've actually learned 2 things from this video: A) the music in Pikmin 2 is WAY more complex than I originally thought, and B) there is a reason why Olimar123 changed all the Cave Theme names in the Pikmin 2 playlist.
"I hope you've enjoyed this look into-"
I'm already replaying it
Oh, small note about one of these parameters: at 7:36 you actually don't need to have brought more than ten Pikmin with you to experience this. You could bring in less than ten and experience this as long as you lose at least one.
I always found the Submerged Castle to be the scariest area, to the point that even today, I obsessively avoid it until I feel 100% ready for it. Even before I learned about the Water Wreath, it always felt so off and so terrifying, like I shouldn't be there and someone, or something, was going to make sure I leave and never come back. For me, music always affected how I reacted to a game, and the music for the castle must have really instilled that level of dread and fear into me!
I didn’t realize the underground tracks were so complex! Thank you for the great video!!
you're a scruffy fan? no way!! both of your channels majorly shaped my views on videogame music :0
@@problemsfan4132 omg for real?? That’s so flattering I’m 😭😭
Yeah I love scruffy’s stuff! He originally got me into taking video game OSTs seriously as a form of music!
7:50 this exact thing happened to me while playing through a randomized version of pikmin 2, and I thought it was the perplexing pool glitching out or something, turns out I just lost a ton of pikmin lol
fantastic stuff as always :)
Woah, it's Heff
Hi Heff! Take care of your pikmin lol. That’s cool though I never noticed that.
This type of dynamic music reminds me of one of my favourite type of TH-cam videos, oscilloscope deconstruction videos, where someone would extract music from games that used sequenced music (notably from consoles like the genesis and snes, although ds and a few wii tracks are also sequenced) and plays them in order. It really lets you appreciate some undersung melodies and tunes you wouldn’t have recognised subconsciously in the full song. I’d recommend anyone who’s interested in VGM composition to look at some of those videos, they’re really interesting!
I assume you're talking about Carpathia808, in which, yeah their videos are pretty interesting!
@@Jongivitis he’s the main guy but I also like the work of MrOscillosocpe, PerfectDisharmony, Orj and plenty more in that communtiy, definitely worthwhile listens
Pikmin 2's music was the first time I actually paid attention to soundtrack in video games. I noticed that certain melodies would play when a boss attacked, and paid more attention to soundtrack ever since. It's been quite a few years, but I still pay attention to soundtrack in games.
Yes me too. Then later Portal 2 impressed with something similar
Man the adaptive music was something a just took for granted when I was a kid since pikmin was one of the first games I played, but I just straight had no idea they made RANDOMIZED music. I mean come on, its so god damn well done I didn’t have a clue it was random
I knew that Pikmin music was adaptive, but I never knew how in-depth the system for cave music really was! When you pointed out that the melody itself was randomly laid out, my mind was blown. Pikmin is my favorite game series and I’m still learning new things about it to this day. Thank you for teaching me something new, this is easily one of my new favorite videos on your channel!
I never knew the music was randomized, I thought at most it just picked a random start and had reused motifs in the song but this makes me appreciate the cave music a lot more... even if I still would never choose to listen to most of it outside of the context of the game itself, I at least know how it got to be that way lol.
Deep dives like this really leave me in awe of the creativity, but mostly commitment and determination of those who make these sort of large effort, minimalist impact details.
How many people have we all met who would bin this system at the first hurdle and justify it by saying "nobody would even notice anyway"? But those fellas kept on for their own fulfilment of adding those extra subtle layers that subconsciously seep into the players' experience. I wish I could be that passionate about something.
I started playing through pikmin 1&2 a few days ago and found myself wondering why I don’t remember the pikmin 2 music as fondly or maybe at all nearly as much as I remember pikmin 1’s music as a kid, this blew my mind and explains it perfectly!
I played Pikmin 2 so much growing up that I knew something was special about the music, but I didn’t realize it went this far!
Reminds me of how the original System Shock handled its music, though most of it seems lost to time.
I am obsessed with Pikmin 2's cave music. Tile 2/Jellyfloat Pool and Hole of Heroes/Flooded Stump are my favorites.
That Submerged Castle visual is incredibly well put together, and uniquely, utterly horrifying. I love it! This video is a fascinating watch, and the editing and presentation of the many systems at play, as well as the extensive research into the sources for each of the samples and synths they come from, is worth applause. Excellent work!
I had NO CLUE about the music missing notes when you're missing most of your pikmin. That's an amazing touch!! This game never ceases to fascinate me
I love the visuals you use for these videos, you clearly put so much work into them. You just don’t see effort like that on many other TH-cam channels.
I never knew about the 10 pikmin rule oh my!
This was so amazing to watch, I still listen to the pikmin2 caves frequently while I work or whatever though I guess I usually don't get a fresh generation. Amazing video and amazing game ^-^
@@distantsails I don't know?, Been watching scruffy for like at least 6 years I think and Pikmin2 is one of my favorite games. Who is this why the confusion?
@@distantsails Ah! Well I'm here yup. Hi
Hearing that intro again feels so good.
This video is incredible Scruffy! I only thought that the "relax" song that plays during the rest floor was procedurally generated! No idea it applied to almost every cave theme! I have already shown your Pikmin 3 Boss Battle Adaptive Music to several friends already because it was so well made! Now I can show them this one too!
My guess for why the organ MIDIs went unused is that they would’ve been added during boss fights but were cut when the proper boss track took their place.
The organ is a dominate instrument in pikmin 1s emperor Bulbax theme (from what I remember pikmin 1s only dedicated boss theme) so it would make sense they’d carry that signature over, at least at initially. This could also explain the greater amount of patterns and why the organs sound harsher then the rest of the MIDIs, they were designed to score a caves final challenge and to put the player on edge.
In Pikmin 1, there's also the Beady Long Legs' theme.
AAAAAA I'VE LITERALLY BEEN RESEARCHING/WRITING AN ESSAY ON THIS EXACT TOPIC FOR MONTHS. Needless to say, this is a VERY exciting video to see. You explain everything incredibly digestibly as always, and there's so much attention to detail here. Major kudos!
Nice, continue with that, I'd love to hear what you find out about that, There is stuff not mentioned here, like the randomized melody of Bulblax Kingdom. Still a lot to uncover there!
Even knowing this about the music, seeing it broken down makes pikmin 2s caves so much more special, it all just adds to the magic that came together with pikmin 1 and 2, because theres just something about the first two that 3 and 4 have yet to really recapture and its not nostalgia because after 100%ing 4 (and to a greater extent 3) i cant really see myself going back to it unless theres dlc, while i can always go back and re 100% pikmin 2. the new ones are just missing something and i honestly think it might be both difficulty and the music, because after thinking the music was lack luster throughtout all of 4, hearing the rest floor theme right before the final boss just made me stop in my tracks and sit there for awhile and put everything into prospective.
The thing about notes missing when your pikmin number lowers back below 10 really blew my mind! I never noticed it outright but I remember getting this weird "empty" feeling when I lost many pikmin. It was definitely a downer, like "is it even worth it to keep going?"
I love the music in Pikmin 2 even more now, I never really pay attention to it while playing because it flows so perfectly with everything happening in-game, it makes me really "feel" the music more than listen to it! It made a huge impression on me as a kid
Your ability to create nothing but the absolute best videos like this is astonishing. I never want these types of videos from you to ever end.
the fact that the last content here was pikmin 4 and they jumped back to 2 means they /might/ be brewing something bigger on pikmin later?
or not. either is fine. its just very warming to be educated by someone just as or more passionate about something than you.
also i want scruffy to have more excuses to nerd out over the game that fans waited so long for. passion/love/Special Interest that makes anyone that happy feels like a salve to all the Bad thats been swarming lately.
it just hit me that the pikmin 2 rest music is just like resident evil save music
This is all so amazing. The idea that the music of this game can be so complex brings literal tears to my eyes.
Absolutely Beautiful. Pikmin 2 is my favorite game of all time.
I'm not in a good place right now but hearing your voice is really helping. You have a very soothing voice and I love music and sound in video games. This kind of content is an excellent escape for me. I hope you know how much of a positive impact you have on viewers! Thank you. 💙
It’s so crazy that this game is 20 years old now and we’re still finding out how the music of this game responds to the player in their current circumstance. I love watching these types of videos you make. Especially the Pikmin ones as it’s a childhood favourite. Thank you scruffy. 🤝
Great video, you two! Your visuals always do a fantastic job clarifying complex things!
the legend himself
1:48 "making sure that all treasure in this sub-level have a secure place to appear"
"the random 7 bombs about to drop on my head": Hey shitass, catch
my eyes lit up like an old person hearing their favourite song and they jump out of their deep reclining chair to let out a little jig when i saw this video. love you scruffy
Those organ stabs add a shocking amount of harmonic context to the tune, wish they made it in!
Pikmin got my favorite adaptive music ever, but I had NO idea Pikmin 2 cave music was this complex! Let alone randomly arranged. Thank you for this video! I LOVE it!
i've always appreciated the adaptive music in this game so much. it goes to lengths of detail in its music that i've seen in no other game
Loving the editing in this video! The cave generated parts and icons going all wibbledy-wobbledy before snapping into place is really satisfying. 🍮
What I've give to get the sheet music for the rest area sublevel, there is something magical about that kind of calmness in the midlist of the chaos of the rest of the cave levels
This is utterly insane, i knew pikmin 2's music was adaptive but i had no idea it was this like. Aleatoric?? Really impressive visuals, helped explain it super clearly
I've been playing pikmin 2 through my entire childhood, and still play it from time to time in my adulthood
especially with the mod milestones of endless abyss, and colossal cavern
I loved every track, (except submerged castle for obvious PTSD reasons lol) but my entire life I always thought the music was sequenced, and just simply layered for the other events.
this opens up and entire new WORLD of appreciation and wonder to pikmin 2's music, and I will be listening info it the next time I play it
I've always loved your videos centered around one of my favorite game series' and this just proves it more. 💚💚
That hello is the friendliest greeting I've heard in youtube
... I'm realizing more and more just how common systems like this were in games I enjoyed. As a little tyke, I obsessed over SPORE and it's comprehensive editors, but always felt a little bummed that I couldn't find an official soundtrack anywhere to play during my bus rides home from school. Lo and behold, I learned many years later that the reason for that was because the game was full of adaptive, procedural music, most likely to reflect the nature of the game's little procedural universe itself. (... I wonder if anyone's done a rundown on that in depth, actually...)
Thank you so much for another fantastic rundown, Scruffy. Your use of visuals is not only entertaining, but deeply appreciated by me, a visual learner. It really helps me understand the detail you're describing by providing adorable examples I can play with in my mind. :D
I thought I knew this game pretty well. The fact that after all these years I never noticed the music was randomly generated was like a slap across the face, telling me I knew nothing.
I've been looking on and off for years, but I'm pretty sure it's been deleted- there used to be a video on TH-cam that was just a rip of Mystic Marsh/flooded stump, and in the description the person who uploaded it mentioned how they had left their gamecube on for a while in this sublevel and after a long time of doing nothing the music started go get messed up- like the order of notes and everything, and in the video description they even tried to transcribe how some of the notation glitched and became entirely randomized. It's been on my mind ever since and I've always been fascinated by how the music in Pikmin 2 works- thanks for making this! (and if anyone knows the OG video i'm thinking of, please let me know!!)
As a huge fan of Pikmin 2's music, I loved this video. Was unaware of the unused organ track for Soil 1, I don't recall it being documented anywhere so it was very cool to hear. Nor was I aware that all of Wakai's songs had unused Spiderwort synths, I thought it was just Valley of Repose.
Also, the recontextualisation of gestures between different songs? Had no idea about that, and it really makes me appreciate Pikmin 2's cave music even more than I already did.
Side note, is there anywhere I can listen to the unused tracks, like the aforementioned organ and spiderwort mixes? Makes me wish there was some sort of online tool for Pikmin 2's cave music.
They are documented on Pikmin 2's tcrf page
@WafflesMoguMogu Ah, there they are! Seems to be a more recent addition, which is why I haven't seen it 'til now.
Added in October by... hey, wait a minute!
(Always nice to discover something new about one of my favourite games, thanks for documenting it!)
@@kolabold u welcome!
Little bit of feedback:
Giving a small padding at the bottom to all the graphics and texts you put on screen helps them to not clash with the captions and makes for a better experience for a bunch of people that need them to appreciate the video.
Specially important for text that covers only the bottom middle of the screen, like "Gesture #" at 6:55.
Yours videos are always absolutely delightful to watch.
I honestly had no idea Pikmin 2's music was procedural as well, so this was cool to watch.
I'm so so so so so glad you did a video on Pikmin 2's cave music!! I've raved about this topic to friends for YEARS and now I have a video I can give them to explain it better than I ever could!!! My personal favorite cave music is the main track used in Bulblax Kingdom, which constructs a procedurally generated military march to capture the imposing nature of raiding a nest of enemy Bulborbs and Bulblaxes. I don't know the exact specifics but I think the track is comprised of 8 bars of melody, which is sub-divided into a bar of "call" and a bar of "response" repeated 4 times, placing a randomly selected "call" measure and "response" measure each time. After 8 bars of melody, you get 4 bars of just a resonating bell and a marching snare drum, which creates a lot of space in tension in the composition. I love this game and its music so much man.
You forgot how after the first phase on sublevel 5 the music literally goes, “yay you beat the bo- waot a minute why isnt he dead”
I just about finished a music theory class that, I was in part inspired to take by your old videos. it's crazy coming back to some of these and understanding basically everything now (even noticing flaws! that pikmin voice video, you said C4 but the note on screen was C5!), those alternating diminished chords is an insane way of conveying direness. I knew pikmin 2 music was cool but procedurally generated music is something else. they really cared about atmosphere more than any other game I can think of.
damn, i knew pikmin 2 had the adaptive music all over it but didnt know about it being procedurally generated thats so cool for a game that came out in 2004
Its impressive. The sheer amount of work and detail that goes into games like this that are meant primarily for kids to enjoy (adults do, can and should play them too of course) is astonishing. i certainly didn't notice this stuff when i played pikmin 2 as a child but as an adult going through these games again has given me a deeper appreciation for the work that went into this stuff. That, and your very clear and informative videos. thanks for another awesome video scruffy
Just found your channel thru this vid, and i gotta say, I loved every second! This is probably one of my top ten fav youtube videos of all time. Seriously. Your presentation and research were off the charts good, and I loved getting to learn more about one of my favorite games ever. Definitely subscribing.
This was fascinating! I had no idea how it all worked, but it makes a lot of sense when you explained it because you can hear specific snippets that you know and have heard a bunch of times before, but they never were the same melody overall. So it always was memorable in it's "feel" even if the song itself was always changing. For instance: With usual music, if you hear it enough times, you memorize it and know what comes next so you can hum to it. So when in a long cave of the same types of floors, you can hear something that is familiar, expect something to come after it, but it doesn't. Makes' you think you remembered wrong, until you notice it again and again and then try to figure out how it works, consciously or subconsciously.
A neat thing that many players may not notice too is that because they are "expecting" a certain part to play out a certain way, they might actually be creating their own music in their head. Like a composition only they themselves can hear.
Overall, this is incredibly fitting for the roguelike style of the caves because the layout of ones you have been to before you would only "think" you know, until it's different and you go: "Oh...". But that's something you'd only notice on multiple plays on the same cave or cave level. It may not even be immediately noticable at first as some floors are much simpler in potential layout than others and thus blend together in memories.
It's a really neat and well thought out!
I had no idea Pikmin 2 had procedural cave music. I love that so much. More games need to do it! Very lovely video as usual, Scruffy! I love yours tuff a lot
So glad you brought up the submerged castle. I remember I was playing it for the first time with a friend who had played it before. He said I should go there because it's a "definitive Pikmin 2 experience" I remember when I first went in there I heard the music, looked back at him and said "there's something uniquely evil about this cave specifically" and 5 minutes later was proven very very right. Good times.
Every Scruffy upload is such a treasure. Thank you so much for another amazing video!
I thought they were randomized in some way and sounded like weird but beautiful messes. Thank you for the hardwork of breaking down the system in an easy to digest way. I'll for sure wear headphones the next time I play pikmin 2 so I can really appreciate the sound design.
Levels of detail the average player might never notice, but included none the less as a special treat for those who do!
I've played through pikmin 2 probably nearly a dozen times, and I never noticed the music was random! I always thought it was just eclectic! Great explanation of how this works :)
I was obsessed for days with how the music worked on this game and watched Waffles' videos a lot, nice to see them playing a big part of the creation of this video
1:13 he said the thing
I never realized how complex and intricate the sound engineering was! That was super fascinating, love me some adaptive music. I know some super obvious ones like DK 64 or Banjo Kazooie where you go underwater and it goes all muffled, but to hear the extra step and beyond that these guys at Nintendo was able to achieve is very inspiring!
This is one of the coolest things I’ve ever learned about a game. You always talk about topics in such a relaxing way, and now I want to experience the Pikmin series because of this video.
Also, I know for sure the water wraith would’ve kept me up at night when I was younger. What a cool concept for a cave!
so glad someone's talking about this, it's one of my favorite aspects of the game
I’m always so happy to see you cover the art and design of Pikmin - Well done, both to you and Waffles!
Wake up babes new Scruffy video!!!
i adore pikmin 2’s soundtrack sooooooooooo much, thx for this vid!
Scruffy has made me start to obsess over pikmin music
I really love the emphasis on giving credit to specific individuals for their work in this video
BRO WHAT I JUST CHECKED THE CHANNEL OUT OF PIRE CURIOSITY AND SEE THIS!!!!! WE LOVE U SCRUFFY!!!!
Pikmin 2's always had my favorite soundtrack in mainstream video games, (Only outdone by Toby Fox's special brand) but I had zero clue about the adaptive music of caves going beyond additional instruments for different situations. Amazing.
Love love love design like this.
There is a pattern I have noticed with the 4 (Not counting Hey! Pikmin or Pikmin bloom) pikmin games. The odd numbered games don’t have the caves, but the even ones do. Weird, huh?
I started replaying Pikmin 2 recently and noticed the layering of music in the caves after watching your Pikmin 3 video. It got me excited and I was really hoping to see a video on it. You do a great job breaking it down for the average viewer and animating it! Thanks for making an awesome video!
Wow, I never realized even the music in caves was a mix of multiple pre-made pieces! I was wondering though, is there any publicly available list or graphic for each song similarly to what's shown at 8:20?
Day has been made
Can’t wait for the pikmin 4 coverage, where every enemy brings its own layer!
PLEAAASE make a sequel just breaking down some more cave tracks, that would be awesome
Sent the thumbnail to my bf and he was like “that is custom content made specifically for you,” which is true, but also this was such a cool video! I knew Pikmin’s soundtrack was adaptive but I didn’t realize how complex and structured the algorithm for generating those adaptations in Pikmin 2 was. And like shout out to the composers of each piece for absolutely getting the assignment. A great and fun video, as always!
I had a feeling that the music would sound different every time! That's why! I'm not crazy! A great video as always!
Otherwise unrelated but can I use your music "End of Day Medley" to make an animation? It inspires me a lot...
thanks for having proper good subtitles on the is video
Metal 2, Concrete 3, Bulblax Kingdom, Frontier Cavern, Jellyfloat, and Flooded Stump are my favorites. I'm sad you didn't talk about how Louie changes the music when he's the main captain though. Maybe you could make an addendum, or a youtube short about it?
The changes to the music when switching between captains are mentioned at 7:06
thank you for using the more accurate naming scheme. shoutout to waffles and hikino!
OMG thank you for properly explaining caves. If I hear they're "randomly generated" again Imma explode
The unbridled joy I feel whenever I hear the What I Love motif is unmatched
i've been enchanted by Pikmin 2's cave music ever since learning it was randomized (thanks olimar12345)! it's one of those experimental things that make the game so special
I never knew that the music peices were all randomized, and that if you lose pikmins, that some parts of it cuts out. Did you also notice that the music is distorted when a captain is hurt? Or that the "Pikmin working" theme from the "treasure" theme, if the captain is far enough from the treasure, that the "working" part is removed? Same occurence for the ennemies "near" and "combat".
Honestly, I'm nowhere near a music expert, but I absolutely love the work made for it in Pikmin 2.
My favorite musics also are Mystic Marsh (my all-time favorite), the Giant Breadbug's theme, Green Yards, Complex and Cautious Cavern and Bulblax Kingdom (that's a lot I know), but weirdly enough, only Olimar's side. I don't really like the stops of Louie's side.
What a beautiful explanation of a beautiful system. And to think you created motion graphics for the whole video including a custom water wraith chase sequence (!!!), it’s incredible. pure love
I'm glad there are people like Scruffy who can explain this stuff to me, because I do NOT have an ear for music