i think it's a great idea. hear me out. I'm new to tennis and come from a mma background. the reason the underhand serve is a great idea to use and to use EARLY in the match is for one reason. It's to make the opponent think about more things. Now that they've seen you try an underhand serve, they now have to wonder EVERY time you serve if it's going to happen again. this will take away from their returns and overwhelm their brain. Why let them comfortably worry about only forehand and backhands? make them wonder if they will have to sprint to the net. in MMA/kick boxing a similar idea is to occasionally throw very unusual strikes, not because they are knockouts, but because it makes the opponent look for and worry about a larger number of attacks, thus letting your regular attacks land more often.
You cant compare it with a dropshot. The most difficult thing when executing a dropshot is calculating the spin and power of the incoming ball and adapt your stroke. Underarm serve is always the same and really not that hard to execute
What are the reasons why an underhand serve is insulting? I think it’s very problematic to to introduce class and reputation into a discussion about a legal move. You’re essentially saying performing this serve will result in a loss of social capital (respect, perception, admiration etc.) and this perpetuates the aristocratic beginnings of tennis. Suggesting this serve is not sportspersonly is also pretty damaging and completely incorrect definitionally. This kind of language stymies individuality and creativity and signals to any future players that you need to play a certain way or be a certain way and why would we encourage that? If an opponent’s ego or reputation is too precious to receive an underhand serve then that’s on the receiver, not the server. I did appreciate the parts of your video where you discuss effectiveness and tactics. I’m genuinely curious to know why receiving an underhand serve makes you feel that way? Do you feel the same way when your opponent employs a drop shot?
I've thought about doing the underhanded serve a few time especially against opponents who are lazy about running for the ball, but I've stopped myself because I know how poorly people would take it. I understand that a lot of people would view it as unsportsmanlike, but if it's a perfectly legal serve then no one should be shamed because of it. However, you can't really change people's perspective so it may cause some discord regardless, but when I see someone like Kyrgios do it effectively I find it really entertaining. Also, tennis is a largely mental game, so while it may motivate or "insult" your opponent that doesn't necessarily mean they'll play better. And even if you only do this serve one time you'll have your opponent thinking about it potentially for the rest of the match, so I think it makes sense to use sometimes.
I use it some times for a tactical reason. If the returner is too far behind the baseline cause you serve fast, doing an underarm serve every now and then or even just once might bring the returner closer to the baseline and your normal fast serve is going to be more difficult to return so your effectiveness is likely to improve
Totally agree with the tactics to strengthen your serve. If opponent is expecting hard left or hard right, they can optimise for it. If you add short shot to the mix, now they have to compromise the original response. I think it is valid. One thing is tricking somebody, second is hurting somebody on purpose.
Totally. This guys video is ridiculous. First, he loves it and rewinds it to watch again, its exciting. But then he says it’s not classy and awful? What? It’s strictly a tactic to give you more of an advantage on your regular server when an opponent is too set in his way of returning it (standing too deep likely).
@@jnid1758 He’s in the hospital after the opponent & everyone in the stands mobbed him for employing such a tactic in a tournament. Thoughts and prayers, he may not have the opportunity to play tennis again.
As a 71 yo former 5.0 player some of us do not have a choice. The more you look at even high level super senior events the more you will see it employed.One of the main attractions to pickle ball not having to reach over your shoulder. Call the lines fair and don't scream or stall and I will have no problem with you!!! Jimmy Parker uses the underhand serve and you won't find a classier gentleman,not to mention his over 100 gold balls.
The underhand serve has been used effectively as a surprise tactic, but Mackenzie MacDonald used it as his main serve when he hurt his shoulder during the first set in a match. He won that set on a tie break but eventually had to retire.
Yes!! Good example on a pro level!! It’s like changing pace to throw off your opponent. And the opponent didn’t able to rip 🪦 that serves, losing a set as result. Haha, Nikola what you can say on that ? 😊th-cam.com/video/rM59HisUWvw/w-d-xo.html
At the recreational level, an underhand serve can be a more solid way to defend against breakpoint or in critical situations. How many times you see a 2nd serve either missed (body collapsed under pressure :)) or if not missed its very slow, bouncing off high and is an easy winner anyway. So the underhand serve is a real option, cause on that level of play its not insulting - its just realistic play
You should still go for a regular second serve in that situation, especially in match play. This is the only way to improve - serve under pressure. At the recreational level, there is no money involved.
@@henrylove514 especially on the highest pro level its not about money either. Still the competitiveness is huge. For some its just more effective to play the underhand serve. A bad 2nd serve is worse than the underhand serve. Even as an advanced player I cannot kill an ordinary underhand serve cause its just very low
You’re right. I’m a pro (semi pro player, pro coach) and I use it in certain situations. My arm has been horrible through my career where I had to it rotator cuff injuries. And, it’s a great approach shot. I’ve used it against the wind and good college players couldn’t return it. I ran one strong open player (Nationally ranked in NCAA Top 100) in doubles, in the deuce court, into his partner in the ad court, the ball kicked so far to the right (the wind helped it). Straight set win for us. In another tourney, with the help of a 25-mph side wind, I ran a receiver off the court and into the grass next to the court. We won the tourney. Another tourney I attempted 10 and was 0/10. Still won in two sets over a college #1. He wasn’t insulted in the least. He did it to me too! I’ve lost a couple students doing it. People get insulted. I don’t use it much for that reason. It’s just a slice approach shot. It’s nothing personal.
Absolutely agree. Due to shoulder issues I now have to hit all my serves underhand. I slice it with underspin (similar to Nico demonstrates). It keeps low with little pace. I think its more difficult to deal with than the all too common medium pace topspin second serve that sits up for the returner. Obviously If your serve is a weapon dont even think about it. But if youre injured, have a tame serve or just find the overarm tehnically difficult I reccommend trying it out.
I practice the underhand serve a lot. Its not just about surprising the opponent with a soft hit. An effective underhand serve needs to be angled to the outer side of the service box. It also needs to have a strong side spin. As a result the opponent needs to come forward and outside of the singles court. In response you yourself come to the net chasing your own serve and as they try to make an angle shot in return you will be there to intercept it, and volley it to the open court. This of course doesn't always work because they can try to hit a down the line winner, or lob it over you while they regain positioning. Additionally, if your underhand is too high or deep, they can easily punish it. So it is a high risk shot. When i see people hating on it, or calling unsporstmanship, i don't get it. I guess the only time i would get it is if i'm recreationally playing against someone with weak knees, low stamina, elderly, etc, then yes, it feels a bit cruel to be making them run around because they just want to hit the ball and don't want to be running around.
I find it pretty funny that people get insulted by receiving an underhand serve. Insulted? Really? Why? Serious question. I understand irritated, maybe, but I do not understand insulted because my ego is not attached to how someone else decides to serve. If it’s not classy, it’s them showing a lack of class. No?
A lady at my club is an ex county vets doubles champion. Shes lost shoulder mobility and now serves underarm. She deliberately places it short and imparts a lot of underspin. Tricky to deal with for any level even when you know its coming.
Another infamous underhand serve was by Martina Hingis in the French Open Final against Steffi Graff. With the public already against her, and visibly demoralized, she used it twice! on match point down, winning the first one with the public booing her loudly and missing the second one. She ended up leaving the court returning only when her mother brought her back crying on her shoulders. After that match she never won another singles grand slam. th-cam.com/video/py0BAzQC-Ts/w-d-xo.html
I remember my freshman year of college, there was a girl during conference that I believe injured/had a minor tear in her abdomen and played her matches serving all underhand. Don't remember what she placed (pretty sure she medaled), but she beat several people even serving underhand as an adjustment. It's legal, so if you can play it effectively it can be practical. A lot of of players will be tempted to overcook the ball past what they're optimized to hitting on the return or simply won't be quick enough to get to it. In the right hands, it can be tactically sound. Returner's fault if they don't adjust. It's in the same vain of asserting dinkers/pushers aren't "real" tennis players for hitting unorthodox even if they beat you because they "don't hit shots [you] like." Never done it myself competitively or casually because I'm comfortable with my normal serve, but expect I will at least once just for kicks at some point. I wouldn't find it insulting if someone used it against me personally. If they beat me using it even just once, they're still a better player. Plus I like the challenge of getting to "impossible" balls. Only "hurts" you if you're slow and/or too far back.
Hello Nik This is basically an exciting topic. I am now in the 55+ class and I have been playing tennis for over 40 years. I have found my style, my ideas and my philosophy over all these years. Now I often have such discussions with young players who think players like N. Kyrgios or D. Brown are cool. No doubt they are brilliant players, but what I don't like is the fact that their game is designed to ridicule and frustrate their opponent. A. Bublik does it better, he has something sly in his game and almost feels a bit guilty when he manages a point like that. But I think we will see that more and more..., so you and I should get used to it😀. At the moment, what you say is true: it makes us stronger and more willing to win😉.
@@jgwil2 Mine. Serving 6-5 for the match, that game had at least seven deuces - I tried it out of desperation, as he was receiving way too far behind. Felt a bit bad afterwards.
lol strongly disagree. nick kyrgios utilized the underhand serve vs rafa at wimbledon and won before. i like your other videos but the underhand serve is definitely a legit tactic and should be taught at all levels.
It's a trick play. Lot's of top tier sports have trick plays. Like you said, they are awesome to watch. They are high risk to pull off and thus can't be used often so I see no harm in using such a tactic. I get the whole traditional thing you're droning on about but it shouldn't get your panties in a twist if someone has the guts to try something within the rules during a match. Still don't like it? Get the rule changed. Or call out all your this, that and the other plays you don't like before a friendly match. Something I would laugh at you about. That said, you would still kick my ass on the court. lol Thanks, for all your instructions--very helpful. As far as Lendl center punching shots at opponents, that is a problem because he could seriously injure someone. As in baseball, if a pitcher is thought to have thrown at the head of a batter there are consequences: usually getting his ass kicked. Don't even get me started on hockey. Perhaps, if Lendl's opponents had jumped the net after one of his stingers and threw down with him he wouldn't have done the stunt too often. lol Can you imagine? Tennis would be so much bigger if that kind of thing was a posibility during a match. Just kidding.
The criticism that an underhand serve will not work long term seems obviously wrong. Is there any point to hitting a good slice serve then? Or a good drop shot? I mean, the main thing they have going for them is the surprise factor, so if you keep doing them your opponent is going to adapt as well. The point is to mix it in with a good regular serve so your opponent is faced with another option they have to keep in mind and defend. Not to do it all the time.
I don't even think it needs to be a surprise factor. I have played against D1 players that will hit that slice serve out wide at 100mph. That's a pain to return with any consistency even if you see it 10x in a row.
And what do you think about targeting on opponent who stays most of the time close to the net in doubles? In my opinion it's just his choice to risk and mistake to stay there. He has possibility to stay more distant. If you play with that opponent in "classy" way your chances are much lower.
I disagree with it being unsportsmanlike--however I totally understand why you teach your students not to do it. Even if it gave a slight tactical advantage, the fact that many PERCEIVE it as unsportsmanlike would likely reflect poorly on you. Since after all, your students are a reflection of you.
I am a 4.5 player and regularly use the underhand serve in matches, often to close out my service game. My first serve is fast, so when I see my opponent standing several feet behind the baseline, I will sometimes surprise them with an underhand serve. I’m a righty and always hit the underhand serve into the add court, where the side spin I impart on the ball changes the ball’s linear path by 45% or more. Not only do I get a lot of aces with it, but when my opponent does make contact it often results in a weak upward return that I can easily put away with a high volley (I always rush the net when I hit these). You are correct that you do lose the element of surprise if you overuse the serve, so I generally won’t do more than 2 or 3 per match. I feel most people are impressed more than insulted, but I have had someone openly express their discontent on the changeover during a league match. 😀
I recently found myself serving into very strong sun where the ball toss went right into the sun's disc. So serving underhand was the solution. It was only on the ad side and I served normally on the deuce side.
I love my low, fast underhand serve. It has served me well and I've racked up a lot of points with it. Both my coaches fully approve of it and I don't give a shyte if my opponents get "offended". I play to win and I like my underhand serve better than my overhead serve.
I got to say Nik I pretty much agree with all your takes, and I absolutely love your insight and you’ve helped me improve my Tennis drastically over the past few years I don’t think I could possibly fix my forehand or serve problems without you. But with that said I don’t really get how the underarm serve is insulting or disrespectful? I mean it’s not any more disrespectful than drop shots and I don’t see a lot of people complaining about those. Personally I will use it occasionally I think it can be a good tactic if you don’t overuse it.
I have an under arm serve that has been consistently clocked at 73 mph. I know roughly half the mph of Shelton. But trust me. Coupled with placement and marginal clearance of the net. That ball gets there quick. I have won matches serving exclusively under hand. I will add this. Two very strong points are placement and balance. I had a shoulder injury some time back. And it was during this period, that I had the opportunity to really explore. The dink/spinny serve is not my thing. I try to hit liners. As low over the net as possible. And positioning at the baseline while serving to access angles and placement. An advantage is that after serve the head is still and balance is perfect. This allows me to focus on the receivers hands. In all honesty. Because of the stigma associated to the use of the underhand serve its potential is not explored. Just for the fun of it grab yourself a basket of balls. And experiment with different grips. I hit my serve with a semi-western and close to the throat So I can take a real cut without trampoline: close to throat provides increased control.. You"d be surprised how much pop and placement you can achieve.
It's just another drop shot, I see no problem with it. I know a couple guys that hate it and I'll often throw in a couple underhands against them. Makes them lose the head altogether.
I think it's a very situational play, that as you said, will only work a few times. But more importantly, as you said, it requires good hand skills. But that comes from practice. Part of the reason why it fails at times is because it's not practiced. It seems like a shot that doesn't need to be practiced, however, I'd argue that if you intend to use it once or twice, maybe more, you should still practice it to some degree.
The underhand serve is historically seen the original serve used in tennis in the early beginning before overarm serve was invented. Therefore it cannot be unsporty!!! Would you also consider moonballs to be unsporty?
I think it's a perfectly acceptable tactic, particularly if your opponent is standing way back to return, but this is what happens if you overuse it: th-cam.com/video/Eksi-nG5nJo/w-d-xo.html
I use it some times for a tactical reason. If the returner is too far behind the baseline cause you serve fast, doing an underarm serve every now and then or even just once might bring the returner closer to the baseline and your normal fast serve is going to be more difficult to return so your effectiveness is likely to improve
I always found it funny that there is also an underhand pitch - the "submarine" - in baseball, and a few pitchers are actually using that pitch regularly.
What's the difference between a disguised drop shot from a groundstroke and a dropshot( underhand) serve?? They are both deceptive. One is classy and one is not???
On the point not classy or even insulting, it is true that some players will perceive it this way whereas many players will not anything disrespectful in it. The trend is that it is more accepted; see at the french open how it was used in key moment by Davidovich vs Ruud and Medvedev vs Tsitsipas. Maybe some players interpreting it as a lack of respect have some ego issues. I personally use it regularly and never out of respect for my opponent. This is cannot be compared in targeting the opponent and risking to injure him. Now I have come to opponent who become ballistic after an underarm serve. Depending on the situation, i could either deflate the situation and not do it again or stand my ground. If you do it, what should be 100% clear for you is that there is no disrespect on your behalf and how it is perceived from the other side is not your responsibility. If he feels offended, this is his problem; same as when you speak you mind and someone feels offended, he is a grown-up and regulating his emotions is on him. If you chose to deflate and not do it, it would be because you chose to not because you have to. About the strategy and is there a purpose to do it or not. Some shots are not going to win to match because they can only be used once or very sparingly; should it be still be part of the toolbox? tweeners, around the net, SABR, dunk... Reason one when i use it is when i feel i am going to double fault. Reason 2 is that to create some uncertainty from my opponent, at a time where he is mentally fragile. It is part of the mental game and within sportmanship IMHO; note that i do not stand close the service line to force a double fault or take more time to force my rythm when i receive, i find this unsportman. Reason 3, the guy is not good at the net like most players, this becomes an uncomfortable sitution for them as they have to make a quick choice in going forward where they do not feel comfortable or move backward. this becomes a combo with underarm + passing / lob or underarm + come to the net. Reason 4, because tennis is a game, the cat and mouse layer. The reason not to do it is to rely on a good second serve, with proper kick, not to show a sign of weakness there and because it can turn nasty and this is not something i enjoy and i usually play worse in these situation. However Nick, i think the message to convey is to educate people that it is ok to receive it or to play it, leave your ego aside and remember that tennis is a game, not war, the competition aspect should not overshadow the pleasure. Maybe the disrespect could be seen on not accepting some shots: no underarm serve? no moonballing? no chip and charge? no playing most shots on backhand? no drop shot? no drop shot and lob? no topspin on the backand? no slow back hand slice? no lob on the back hand?
I started using the US when I couldn’t serve due to a shoulder impingement. People knew I had an injury and no one seemed annoyed by its effectiveness.
Played a guy this weekend who did it to me 7 TIMES, including to win match point. He was clearly superior to me as a singles player (he's a 4.0 and I'm a 3.5) and was better than me as well. We had been hitting missile serves to each other all day. Then he mixes in the "quick serve" underhand serve up 5-3 in Set 2. My issue is more than not being to get to the serve before the second bounce from a standing/stationary position without risking ripping my ACL or Achilles. Going from "0 to 60" after a certain age is asking for surgery. By the fourth quick serve, I simply dropped my racquet and caught the ball on the fourth or fifth bounce and handed it back to him. Did the same for shots 5, 6 and 7. On match point, up 40-love, he did it on me. I dropped my racquet, picked up the ball and handed it to him and shook his hand. Drop shots are all good as we're already in motion and, if I'm out of position, that's on me. But winning the points like this -- when it ended up as 6-2 6-3 6-3 felt so... unnecessary. No issue getting my can kicked to a better player but no need to show me up.
I don't see why an underhand serve would be unclassy but drop shot's are ok. Both shots rely on catching the opponent by surprise. I think people shouldn't interpret the way someone plays too much as an implicit psychological message. In the big picture, this leads to establishing a norm of how the sport "must be played". Instead different game styles should be allowed, forcing people to compete on court against strategies that are perceived to be "unsportsmanlike" (like the "pusher"-strategy). I think shooting on someone and potentially hurting him/her is a different story.
The "unclassy" argument is reinforcing it. Look at the dropshot: it used to be unclassy and now it has become the main variation in the men's tour. "Unclassy" is perception, tradition, there is nothing objective to it. I find grunting unclassy but the tour seems to disagree nowadays. Am I more motivated or distracted by the opponent's grunting? In my case, it irritates me and I rather lose than endure it. So even the motivational argument is not necessarily true. There are two objective reasons why it might be a good tactic: 1) surprise 2) to keep the opponent "honest" when receiving. Against Nadal or Medvedev, who are almost in the stands when receiving, I think it's a good tactic. Obviously there are more objective reasons not to: 1) it's a weaker serve 2) the surprise element will wear off 3) it might ruin your own rhythm
i rarely use the unhand serve, but in one USTA doubles match one opponent couldnt return it, when i hit it to his partner, he either hit a groundstroke winner or drop shot return needless to say. i used it because the sun was bad on my side and i got stuck with the sunny side. if used once in a while to an inexperienced opponent, it usually works
I think the last time I used the underarm serve several times was when I was playing outside on a very sunny day without sunglasses and finding it very difficult to serve without being dazzled by the sun. Trouble is a few underarm serves in a row is risky. You are right it can be thought of as teasing or disrespecting your opponent if they don’t have a sense of humour. But perhaps the odd one here and there is ok. I think Medvedev used it when he down match point as he probably thought he had nothing to lose and conceded he had already lost the match.
Ok. I’m the KING of UNDERHAND SERVES wherever I go. I’ve used it in Washington, Oregon, California, Ohio, Florida and Vermont. I have a horrible arm injury that doesn’t allow me to practice serves much or at all. I’m a pro whose won prize money in 80 open tournaments. It’s just a slice approach shot. It’s nothing personal. I hate it when someone does it to me. I can’t return it well either! But I don’t tell my opponents what style or shots to use against me. It’s none of my damn business. I restrain from doing it often cause people get offended. But then I do other things which get them pissed too. Like drop shots off their weak 2nd serves. Like moving closer and approach off their serves. Like lobbing. Like moonballing. Like standing WAY back to return. Like hitting banana slice groundies. Like smashing a 100 mph 2nd serve. Like trying to use every weapon I have to win points and hopefully the match. I told one dissenter in Ohio, where I was ranked #1 in the district, I said, when he complained, “How about I’ll write down all the shots I’d like to use against you and you can check them off, which ones you’d like me to use.” I’d be happy not to use it, if my arm didn’t hurt and it the sun wasn’t in my eyes and if the wind wasn’t throwing my toss off and if I had a bigger serve. But, I kinda have this thing about losing a winnable match and about GIVING 100% EFFORT TO WIN THE MATCH BY EVERY LEGAL ETHICAL WAY POSSIBLE!!! I told another college kid, “If I play ‘normal’, you’ll beat me 100%. You don’t mind if I try to win, do you?” At the 30-over US National Grass, I played Sven Salina, former US Open doubles semi finalist, and the club pro, all 6-foot-5 of him. On grass he beat me 7562 but it woulda been much worse if I hadn’t pulled out that weapon out of my arsenal. He wasn’t insulted. He was a gentleman. Hr taught at the club every day on grass. He had the advantage. I did what I could. Another guy accused me of cheating the 2nd point of the match, and the ball he questioned was way out. I figured, “It’s on!” And I proceeded to crank out 15 awesome wind-aided UNDIE serves that had my opponent running INTO THE SIDE FENCE and even the UMPIRE!! Victory for me, 6361. Shoulda been 6161 but I gagged a set point at 6151 ad out. It’s just a weapon. I’d NEVER quick serve the opponent, like ATP guys do. That’s unsportsmanlike. If I quick served them, they don’t have to return it. So, I eait til they’re 100% ready. And like he said, it loses its surprise after a while. Don’t want to overuse it. But no one has the right to tel anyone how to hit the ball. I paid my entry fee. I’ll hit the shots I want to hit. It’s not my job to teach you how to return it. Well, it actually is. Cause often I play my students in tournaments. And, yes. I try not to use it if someone will be offended, if I think I’m going to win anyway. But, like I said, I have an elbow injury that doesn’t allow me to practice overhand serves much or at all. It’s just an approach shot. It’s nothing personal.
Not insulting at all... I've never done it, but I've thought about it as a wrinkle.. as a righty, if executed well, hitting a certain spot on the court and having the ball bounce or skip off to the right and likely low and short in the box instead of the usual left for me / deeper parts of the box is huge.. i can hit the short left parts with sidespin...why not try to bounce it in ALL parts of the box consistently.. it's not bad... Also, people who have done it to me, again I took zero offense... once, I hit a good shots against it, or when the opponent sees it doesn't work on me, I feel as though my opponent is showing weakness because they are reaching at that point to find something to work against me or a situation to play out of... my opponents are welcome to do anything they want or chose, at the end of the day, it's up to me seize the opportunities I create or opportunities the opponent gives me.
@@jgwil2 Well, you can't worry about very perception out there. By worrying about that perception, he is giving it value that it doesn't deserve. Just my 2 cents.
I get what you’re saying about unsportsmanlike and not classy . Unfortunately I’ve had a shoulder impingement for the last 3 months and it’s the only way I can compete at the moment . I’d rather play than not play .
I JUST FIND THIS VIDEO, RIGHT AFTER MAKING A QUESTION ABOUT THIS TYPE OF SERVE ON YOUR LAST VIDEO , NICE EXPLANATION, THANK YOU , BUT , NIKOLA, IM STILL DONT KNOW HOW TO RESPOND AND DEAL WITH IT , SO IF YOU HAVE TIME , I WILL APRECCIATE IF YOU CAN GIVE ME A TIP OR MAKE A VIDEO IF YOU WILLING OF COURSE , THANK YOU AGAIN
I see little difference between using an underhand serve or a drop shot. The whole point of the game is to get a winning shot past your opponent by any method within the rules. As for what your opponent of others think, tell them to get over themselves.
It is definitely good to learn underarm serve, but definitely not the spirit of the game. When the receiver stands very far, instead of underarm serve, serve with regular action, very slow, with lot of spin and with less height. But, tough to do so?
Nick, I agree with you 99% of the time and you are absolutely the best coach on TH-cam, but I whole heartedly disagree with you on the cons of the UNDERHAND serve. As a lifetime tennis enthusiast and Sportsman, I find that the use of varying tactics and techniques contribute to the enjoyment of the game and ads way more excitement to the modern spectator. I think tennis would do well to get away from the rather bland "SNOB" etiquette... and focus on keeping the game interesting in these modern times by encouraging new moves and tactics that are within the rules. People tolerate belligerent unsportsman players like Rodderick/Kyrgo/McEnroe... but look down on a well mannered strategic player that uses a low serve?! Playing within the rules is NOT playing dirty or UNSPORTSMAN like. Shit talking is UNSPORTSMAN like. If we allow annoying screaming and grunting in tennis... then low serving is a non issue to me. Also, if it takes a low serve to make my opponent want to win more... he's not respecting me or the game. Every athlete should be playing to win at their highest level.
I get your point. It makes a lot of sense what your are sayin. Maybe I’m too much of a traditionalist, whatever it may be I just don’t like underhand serves. To each his own, many players do it now, I cringe. It is absolutely within the rules and I do like McEnroe and Connors so make some valid points. In any case thank you for your support 🙏🙏✌️✌️
In the age of pickleball, the underhand serve is ok. In fact, it’s often referred to as the “pickleball” serve. If gets the opponent off the baseline and forces them to hit a volley, why wouldn’t a server use this tool once in a while to mix things up?
Cricket and baseball both have slow balls that are totally legit. The unwritten rule not to do it means there hasn't really been any reasonable development in off-speed serves. If a drop shot is effective during a rally than I don't see why a slow difficult serve to setup your next shot couldn't do the same
I'm left handed, so many opponents think I'm sinister. I am able to hit an underhanded serve, but I don't. I can hit an overhead serve that lands short, with backspin. I use it against players who seem awkward close to the net. In a doubles match I hit my drop serve against a better player. He returned the ball poorly. I was able to finish the point. He complained to me that serve was a shitty thing to do. I stood there grinning. He had great feel. The next time he served to me he did exactly what I expected - a short serve about as slithery as the one I hit to him. As he started to windup, I walked to the service line and easily controlled my return. We won that point and I had another grin on my face.
Yeah, I honestly do that similarly with my normal serve (not a lefty though) where I'll mix in an uncharacteristically slow, short, spinning serve if I realize my opponent has a tendency to overcook those return set-ups.
To me it just shows how egotistical and how fragile their egos are that get upset with their opponent for surprising them with an underhand serve. I get upset when players moon all me to death, or lob over my head, or ace me BUT I only berate myself for allowing my opponent to outplay me rather than find fault with their bag of tricks. Welcome any challenge that your opponent throws your way and quit being Lord Fauntleroy playing by archaic queen berry rules.
Why in the world is an underhand serve supposed to be insulting? This i don't understand. And what about the middle-of-the-rally drop shot? Is this should be insulting as well? It's about time we get rid of these 'unwritten rules' and 'traditions' which doesn't make sense and only adds to the dumbing down of the game's entertainment value.
Co-operation is a big part of tennis at Recreational level. It's about good points and a good game, apparently.. I was playing mixed doubles and whacked the ball straight at the lady on the other side..unintentionally I might add...but still kinda made me look bad.
develop a reliable and effective second serve is far more important and rewarding than developing an underhand serve. You may get a couple points doing underhand serve, but it's hard to pull off in tense situation. At tour level, it might be entertaining, but it's another story on the club level.
I disagree on the strategy argument, cause after 1 or 2 underhand services, your opponent will always have it on the back of his mind and may hesitate with his positioning.
"You will be seen as unclassy" - words I would never say to anyone who comes to me for help/advice on their tennis Class should even be irrelevant in everyday life, let alone sporting competition
Relax buddy, no one has even come to you for help or advice in tennis, thats why youre leaving a comment on a youtube video and not actually interacting with human beings. Respect and Class are pretty much essential to any of those interactions. Put yourself out there and have more of them and it might make more sense
Thb if u do it just once in a whole match like kyrgios did against nadal , nadal might be expecting it while another one while he wont do one anymore, coulbe a good tactic and result in more normal serve wins
The big problem with the underarm serve in rec tennis is not the legality of the serve but the type of people that use it. There is a strong overlap between the players who use it and arseholes. There is no nice way to put it. They generally use it as an humiliation tactic against weaker players. They are the same sort of people who will play a newbie and drop shot their serve. So you have to ask yourself, is that really a club you want to join?
@@monstertrucktennis Actually, my agreement to this video includes that the underhand serve is a completely legal shot. Not sure how ethics comes into play but I don't think it's that great of an option unless your opponent is playing your serve far back. I have no problem with Kyrgios breaking out every now and again. I do have a problem with Bublik going 1-7 with it.
A male player used an underhand serve as his 2nd serve EVERY TIME HE MISSED HIS FIRST SERVE and none of us could believe what we were seeing this past spring during our varsity season. Our poor 2nd singles player had to endure it but thank goodness he was able to play past it and overcome the distraction.
I never thought the day will come where I disagree with the coach 😉 I think underhand serves are fun and require skills, just like a drop shot. Returning one can be tricky as well
I wonder why the ATP has not do something about it; the fact that almost all players don’t use this tactic, reasonably many people don’t like it, but what would happen if it starts to be a fashion?
No need to get angry or insulted or feel unclassy..😃...As long as "underhand serve" is legal shot we shouldn't even be opiniated....its just like another shot, so be prepared to get one from opponents or use it yourself once in a while.
I used to be about a UTR 11.5 and have beaten ATP ranked players, and UTR 13’s, and currently a UTR 9. When I use it, against the wind, I momentarily turn into a UTR 12-ish. I just can’t use it too often. Or, like you said, they get on to it. But that applies to almost any shot or tactic. It’s just one shot in my arsenal.
I disagree that is "unclassy". That is like saying a dropshot is unclassy. That is just wrong. The game isn't making sure you don't surprise your opponent....
Stop Hitting Your Leg on Serve 🦵🛑
👉 th-cam.com/video/3phu6nhLmik/w-d-xo.html
i think chang did it because he was cramping or hurt i think would you use it in that case
If Nadal and Thiem stand 50m behind the baseline returning serves, they absolutely deserve to be underarm served
Agreed! Make 'em think about it. A fastball is made more powerful if you have a good changeup too.
i think it's a great idea. hear me out. I'm new to tennis and come from a mma background.
the reason the underhand serve is a great idea to use and to use EARLY in the match is for one reason.
It's to make the opponent think about more things.
Now that they've seen you try an underhand serve, they now have to wonder EVERY time you serve if it's going to happen again. this will take away from their returns and overwhelm their brain. Why let them comfortably worry about only forehand and backhands? make them wonder if they will have to sprint to the net.
in MMA/kick boxing a similar idea is to occasionally throw very unusual strikes, not because they are knockouts, but because it makes the opponent look for and worry about a larger number of attacks, thus letting your regular attacks land more often.
I don't think the underhand serve lacks class at all when executed properly, quite similar to a dropshot in my opinion
You cant compare it with a dropshot. The most difficult thing when executing a dropshot is calculating the spin and power of the incoming ball and adapt your stroke. Underarm serve is always the same and really not that hard to execute
What are the reasons why an underhand serve is insulting?
I think it’s very problematic to to introduce class and reputation into a discussion about a legal move. You’re essentially saying performing this serve will result in a loss of social capital (respect, perception, admiration etc.) and this perpetuates the aristocratic beginnings of tennis.
Suggesting this serve is not sportspersonly is also pretty damaging and completely incorrect definitionally. This kind of language stymies individuality and creativity and signals to any future players that you need to play a certain way or be a certain way and why would we encourage that? If an opponent’s ego or reputation is too precious to receive an underhand serve then that’s on the receiver, not the server.
I did appreciate the parts of your video where you discuss effectiveness and tactics.
I’m genuinely curious to know why receiving an underhand serve makes you feel that way?
Do you feel the same way when your opponent employs a drop shot?
I've thought about doing the underhanded serve a few time especially against opponents who are lazy about running for the ball, but I've stopped myself because I know how poorly people would take it. I understand that a lot of people would view it as unsportsmanlike, but if it's a perfectly legal serve then no one should be shamed because of it. However, you can't really change people's perspective so it may cause some discord regardless, but when I see someone like Kyrgios do it effectively I find it really entertaining.
Also, tennis is a largely mental game, so while it may motivate or "insult" your opponent that doesn't necessarily mean they'll play better. And even if you only do this serve one time you'll have your opponent thinking about it potentially for the rest of the match, so I think it makes sense to use sometimes.
completely agree with you
I use it some times for a tactical reason. If the returner is too far behind the baseline cause you serve fast, doing an underarm serve every now and then or even just once might bring the returner closer to the baseline and your normal fast serve is going to be more difficult to return so your effectiveness is likely to improve
Totally agree with the tactics to strengthen your serve. If opponent is expecting hard left or hard right, they can optimise for it. If you add short shot to the mix, now they have to compromise the original response. I think it is valid. One thing is tricking somebody, second is hurting somebody on purpose.
With players standing a mile behind the baseline to receive, it's good to keep them honest.
Yes Krygios had that in mind when he did it to Nadal in Wimbledon 2019.
@@jeremyrogers1247 I thought Rafa was just scrambling to get back to his seat for changeover
Totally. This guys video is ridiculous. First, he loves it and rewinds it to watch again, its exciting. But then he says it’s not classy and awful? What? It’s strictly a tactic to give you more of an advantage on your regular server when an opponent is too set in his way of returning it (standing too deep likely).
I agree
@@puckpaul11 he was judging from the perspective of a viewer first
I’m going to do it this weekend at my tournament, I’ll update y’all on how it went
Good luck with the tournament!
how did it go
@@jnid1758 He’s in the hospital after the opponent & everyone in the stands mobbed him for employing such a tactic in a tournament.
Thoughts and prayers, he may not have the opportunity to play tennis again.
@@benballier9580- 🤣 💀
Everyone will hate you 😂
As a 71 yo former 5.0 player some of us do not have a choice. The more you look at even high level super senior events the more you will see it employed.One of the main attractions to pickle ball not having to reach over your shoulder. Call the lines fair and don't scream or stall and I will have no problem with you!!! Jimmy Parker uses the underhand serve and you won't find a classier gentleman,not to mention his over 100 gold balls.
Unpredictability wins matches, fullstop.
The underhand serve has been used effectively as a surprise tactic, but Mackenzie MacDonald used it as his main serve when he hurt his shoulder during the first set in a match. He won that set on a tie break but eventually had to retire.
Yes!! Good example on a pro level!! It’s like changing pace to throw off your opponent. And the opponent didn’t able to rip 🪦 that serves, losing a set as result. Haha, Nikola what you can say on that ? 😊th-cam.com/video/rM59HisUWvw/w-d-xo.html
Change ups can be a powerful tactic as so many players start to get grooved during a match
At the recreational level, an underhand serve can be a more solid way to defend against breakpoint or in critical situations. How many times you see a 2nd serve either missed (body collapsed under pressure :)) or if not missed its very slow, bouncing off high and is an easy winner anyway. So the underhand serve is a real option, cause on that level of play its not insulting - its just realistic play
You should still go for a regular second serve in that situation, especially in match play. This is the only way to improve - serve under pressure. At the recreational level, there is no money involved.
@@henrylove514 especially on the highest pro level its not about money either. Still the competitiveness is huge. For some its just more effective to play the underhand serve. A bad 2nd serve is worse than the underhand serve. Even as an advanced player I cannot kill an ordinary underhand serve cause its just very low
I agree.
You’re right. I’m a pro (semi pro player, pro coach) and I use it in certain situations. My arm has been horrible through my career where I had to it rotator cuff injuries. And, it’s a great approach shot. I’ve used it against the wind and good college players couldn’t return it. I ran one strong open player (Nationally ranked in NCAA Top 100) in doubles, in the deuce court, into his partner in the ad court, the ball kicked so far to the right (the wind helped it). Straight set win for us. In another tourney, with the help of a 25-mph side wind, I ran a receiver off the court and into the grass next to the court. We won the tourney. Another tourney I attempted 10 and was 0/10. Still won in two sets over a college #1. He wasn’t insulted in the least. He did it to me too! I’ve lost a couple students doing it. People get insulted. I don’t use it much for that reason. It’s just a slice approach shot. It’s nothing personal.
Absolutely agree. Due to shoulder issues I now have to hit all my serves underhand. I slice it with underspin (similar to Nico demonstrates). It keeps low with little pace. I think its more difficult to deal with than the all too common medium pace topspin second serve that sits up for the returner.
Obviously If your serve is a weapon dont even think about it. But if youre injured, have a tame serve or just find the overarm tehnically difficult I reccommend trying it out.
I practice the underhand serve a lot. Its not just about surprising the opponent with a soft hit. An effective underhand serve needs to be angled to the outer side of the service box. It also needs to have a strong side spin. As a result the opponent needs to come forward and outside of the singles court. In response you yourself come to the net chasing your own serve and as they try to make an angle shot in return you will be there to intercept it, and volley it to the open court.
This of course doesn't always work because they can try to hit a down the line winner, or lob it over you while they regain positioning.
Additionally, if your underhand is too high or deep, they can easily punish it. So it is a high risk shot.
When i see people hating on it, or calling unsporstmanship, i don't get it.
I guess the only time i would get it is if i'm recreationally playing against someone with weak knees, low stamina, elderly, etc, then yes, it feels a bit cruel to be making them run around because they just want to hit the ball and don't want to be running around.
I find it pretty funny that people get insulted by receiving an underhand serve. Insulted? Really? Why? Serious question. I understand irritated, maybe, but I do not understand insulted because my ego is not attached to how someone else decides to serve. If it’s not classy, it’s them showing a lack of class. No?
Exactly! Is a drop shot insulting? Are moonballs insulting?
Because you fake a serve motion and try to win a point without any effort, any tennis player will get irritated by it
@@PeterDMayr it is, actually. Nowadays not so much as 10 - 15 years ago. Dosed drop shot - OK, but overdoing it... No.
It’s cheating
@@willnill7946 Meaning?
A lady at my club is an ex county vets doubles champion. Shes lost shoulder mobility and now serves underarm. She deliberately places it short and imparts a lot of underspin. Tricky to deal with for any level even when you know its coming.
Another infamous underhand serve was by Martina Hingis in the French Open Final against Steffi Graff. With the public already against her, and visibly demoralized, she used it twice! on match point down, winning the first one with the public booing her loudly and missing the second one. She ended up leaving the court returning only when her mother brought her back crying on her shoulders. After that match she never won another singles grand slam. th-cam.com/video/py0BAzQC-Ts/w-d-xo.html
I remember my freshman year of college, there was a girl during conference that I believe injured/had a minor tear in her abdomen and played her matches serving all underhand. Don't remember what she placed (pretty sure she medaled), but she beat several people even serving underhand as an adjustment. It's legal, so if you can play it effectively it can be practical. A lot of of players will be tempted to overcook the ball past what they're optimized to hitting on the return or simply won't be quick enough to get to it. In the right hands, it can be tactically sound. Returner's fault if they don't adjust. It's in the same vain of asserting dinkers/pushers aren't "real" tennis players for hitting unorthodox even if they beat you because they "don't hit shots [you] like."
Never done it myself competitively or casually because I'm comfortable with my normal serve, but expect I will at least once just for kicks at some point. I wouldn't find it insulting if someone used it against me personally. If they beat me using it even just once, they're still a better player. Plus I like the challenge of getting to "impossible" balls. Only "hurts" you if you're slow and/or too far back.
I think hitting slice serves, kick serves and fast flat serves in the corners are unsportsmanlike.
Hello Nik
This is basically an exciting topic. I am now in the 55+ class and I have been playing tennis for over 40 years. I have found my style, my ideas and my philosophy over all these years.
Now I often have such discussions with young players who think players like N. Kyrgios or D. Brown are cool. No doubt they are brilliant players, but what I don't like is the fact that their game is designed to ridicule and frustrate their opponent. A. Bublik does it better, he has something sly in his game and almost feels a bit guilty when he manages a point like that.
But I think we will see that more and more..., so you and I should get used to it😀. At the moment, what you say is true: it makes us stronger and more willing to win😉.
AT 69 Y.O., I USE THE UNDERHAND EXCLUSIVELY. I RARELY LOSE MY SERVE. I HAVE 2 ITERATIONS. A TOPSPIN TO THE FOREHAND AND A SIDESPIN TO THE BACKHAND.
I did it once in match point, I won it. It’s a good tool to have in your toolbox.
Your match point or your opponent's match point? I think the latter is acceptable, the former is borderline unsporting.
@@jgwil2 Mine. Serving 6-5 for the match, that game had at least seven deuces - I tried it out of desperation, as he was receiving way too far behind. Felt a bit bad afterwards.
@@andresf1984 Do what you gotta do tactically.
@@andresf1984 not your fault he won’t stand closer
lol strongly disagree. nick kyrgios utilized the underhand serve vs rafa at wimbledon and won before. i like your other videos but the underhand serve is definitely a legit tactic and should be taught at all levels.
It's a trick play. Lot's of top tier sports have trick plays. Like you said, they are awesome to watch. They are high risk to pull off and thus can't be used often so I see no harm in using such a tactic. I get the whole traditional thing you're droning on about but it shouldn't get your panties in a twist if someone has the guts to try something within the rules during a match. Still don't like it? Get the rule changed. Or call out all your this, that and the other plays you don't like before a friendly match. Something I would laugh at you about. That said, you would still kick my ass on the court. lol Thanks, for all your instructions--very helpful.
As far as Lendl center punching shots at opponents, that is a problem because he could seriously injure someone. As in baseball, if a pitcher is thought to have thrown at the head of a batter there are consequences: usually getting his ass kicked. Don't even get me started on hockey. Perhaps, if Lendl's opponents had jumped the net after one of his stingers and threw down with him he wouldn't have done the stunt too often. lol Can you imagine? Tennis would be so much bigger if that kind of thing was a posibility during a match. Just kidding.
The criticism that an underhand serve will not work long term seems obviously wrong. Is there any point to hitting a good slice serve then? Or a good drop shot? I mean, the main thing they have going for them is the surprise factor, so if you keep doing them your opponent is going to adapt as well.
The point is to mix it in with a good regular serve so your opponent is faced with another option they have to keep in mind and defend. Not to do it all the time.
I don't even think it needs to be a surprise factor. I have played against D1 players that will hit that slice serve out wide at 100mph. That's a pain to return with any consistency even if you see it 10x in a row.
And what do you think about targeting on opponent who stays most of the time close to the net in doubles?
In my opinion it's just his choice to risk and mistake to stay there. He has possibility to stay more distant. If you play with that opponent in "classy" way your chances are much lower.
I disagree with it being unsportsmanlike--however I totally understand why you teach your students not to do it. Even if it gave a slight tactical advantage, the fact that many PERCEIVE it as unsportsmanlike would likely reflect poorly on you. Since after all, your students are a reflection of you.
Thats why you do it when you opponent has match point like Medvedev :D This way your opponent don't have time to get "fired up"
I am a 4.5 player and regularly use the underhand serve in matches, often to close out my service game. My first serve is fast, so when I see my opponent standing several feet behind the baseline, I will sometimes surprise them with an underhand serve. I’m a righty and always hit the underhand serve into the add court, where the side spin I impart on the ball changes the ball’s linear path by 45% or more. Not only do I get a lot of aces with it, but when my opponent does make contact it often results in a weak upward return that I can easily put away with a high volley (I always rush the net when I hit these). You are correct that you do lose the element of surprise if you overuse the serve, so I generally won’t do more than 2 or 3 per match. I feel most people are impressed more than insulted, but I have had someone openly express their discontent on the changeover during a league match. 😀
It's like boxing: "Protect yourself at all times"...
I recently found myself serving into very strong sun where the ball toss went right into the sun's disc. So serving underhand was the solution. It was only on the ad side and I served normally on the deuce side.
I love my low, fast underhand serve. It has served me well and I've racked up a lot of points with it. Both my coaches fully approve of it and I don't give a shyte if my opponents get "offended". I play to win and I like my underhand serve better than my overhead serve.
I got to say Nik I pretty much agree with all your takes, and I absolutely love your insight and you’ve helped me improve my Tennis drastically over the past few years I don’t think I could possibly fix my forehand or serve problems without you. But with that said I don’t really get how the underarm serve is insulting or disrespectful? I mean it’s not any more disrespectful than drop shots and I don’t see a lot of people complaining about those. Personally I will use it occasionally I think it can be a good tactic if you don’t overuse it.
Effective serve options for the reasons you mentioned. Surprise, injury, change in tactics. Thank you
Great video! And nice serve! 💪
I have an under arm serve that has been consistently clocked at 73 mph. I know roughly half the mph of Shelton. But trust me. Coupled with placement and marginal clearance of the net. That ball gets there quick.
I have won matches serving exclusively under hand. I will add this. Two very strong points are placement and balance.
I had a shoulder injury some time back. And it was during this period, that I had the opportunity to really explore. The dink/spinny serve is not my thing. I try to hit liners. As low over the net as possible. And positioning at the baseline while serving to access angles and placement. An advantage is that after serve the head is still and balance is perfect. This allows me to focus on the receivers hands.
In all honesty. Because of the stigma associated to the use of the underhand serve its potential is not explored.
Just for the fun of it grab yourself a basket of balls. And experiment with different grips. I hit my serve with a semi-western and close to the throat
So I can take a real cut without trampoline: close to throat provides increased control..
You"d be surprised how much pop and placement you can achieve.
Honorary mention: Medvedev going with an underarm serve on match point (not his) in one of the recent matches 😂
Which didn’t end well for him - he got served 😂
It's just another drop shot, I see no problem with it. I know a couple guys that hate it and I'll often throw in a couple underhands against them. Makes them lose the head altogether.
I think it's a very situational play, that as you said, will only work a few times. But more importantly, as you said, it requires good hand skills. But that comes from practice. Part of the reason why it fails at times is because it's not practiced. It seems like a shot that doesn't need to be practiced, however, I'd argue that if you intend to use it once or twice, maybe more, you should still practice it to some degree.
Absolutely, anything worth using in a match should be practiced
The underhand serve is historically seen the original serve used in tennis in the early beginning before overarm serve was invented. Therefore it cannot be unsporty!!! Would you also consider moonballs to be unsporty?
I think it's a perfectly acceptable tactic, particularly if your opponent is standing way back to return, but this is what happens if you overuse it: th-cam.com/video/Eksi-nG5nJo/w-d-xo.html
How do you feel about standing in the service box while returning on match point
Do I desire victory at any price (amateur level)? 🤔
Do i abide by the rules or look down my nose at those that do?
I use it some times for a tactical reason. If the returner is too far behind the baseline cause you serve fast, doing an underarm serve every now and then or even just once might bring the returner closer to the baseline and your normal fast serve is going to be more difficult to return so your effectiveness is likely to improve
Could you please analyze Andy Roddick’s serve and compare it to a regular serve? Thanks.
I always found it funny that there is also an underhand pitch - the "submarine" - in baseball, and a few pitchers are actually using that pitch regularly.
What's the difference between a disguised drop shot from a groundstroke and a dropshot( underhand) serve?? They are both deceptive. One is classy and one is not???
Agreed. "Unclassy", what nonsense. I'll take an unclassy win anyday.
On the point not classy or even insulting, it is true that some players will perceive it this way whereas many players will not anything disrespectful in it. The trend is that it is more accepted; see at the french open how it was used in key moment by Davidovich vs Ruud and Medvedev vs Tsitsipas. Maybe some players interpreting it as a lack of respect have some ego issues. I personally use it regularly and never out of respect for my opponent. This is cannot be compared in targeting the opponent and risking to injure him. Now I have come to opponent who become ballistic after an underarm serve. Depending on the situation, i could either deflate the situation and not do it again or stand my ground. If you do it, what should be 100% clear for you is that there is no disrespect on your behalf and how it is perceived from the other side is not your responsibility. If he feels offended, this is his problem; same as when you speak you mind and someone feels offended, he is a grown-up and regulating his emotions is on him. If you chose to deflate and not do it, it would be because you chose to not because you have to. About the strategy and is there a purpose to do it or not. Some shots are not going to win to match because they can only be used once or very sparingly; should it be still be part of the toolbox? tweeners, around the net, SABR, dunk... Reason one when i use it is when i feel i am going to double fault. Reason 2 is that to create some uncertainty from my opponent, at a time where he is mentally fragile. It is part of the mental game and within sportmanship IMHO; note that i do not stand close the service line to force a double fault or take more time to force my rythm when i receive, i find this unsportman. Reason 3, the guy is not good at the net like most players, this becomes an uncomfortable sitution for them as they have to make a quick choice in going forward where they do not feel comfortable or move backward. this becomes a combo with underarm + passing / lob or underarm + come to the net. Reason 4, because tennis is a game, the cat and mouse layer. The reason not to do it is to rely on a good second serve, with proper kick, not to show a sign of weakness there and because it can turn nasty and this is not something i enjoy and i usually play worse in these situation. However Nick, i think the message to convey is to educate people that it is ok to receive it or to play it, leave your ego aside and remember that tennis is a game, not war, the competition aspect should not overshadow the pleasure. Maybe the disrespect could be seen on not accepting some shots: no underarm serve? no moonballing? no chip and charge? no playing most shots on backhand? no drop shot? no drop shot and lob? no topspin on the backand? no slow back hand slice? no lob on the back hand?
Spot on!
"..the competition aspect should not overshadow the pleasure."
I started using the US when I couldn’t serve due to a shoulder impingement. People knew I had an injury and no one seemed annoyed by its effectiveness.
Bullshit, bodyshot is by alot more insportmanship then a underhand serve. Yet they both legal shots.
Played a guy this weekend who did it to me 7 TIMES, including to win match point. He was clearly superior to me as a singles player (he's a 4.0 and I'm a 3.5) and was better than me as well. We had been hitting missile serves to each other all day. Then he mixes in the "quick serve" underhand serve up 5-3 in Set 2. My issue is more than not being to get to the serve before the second bounce from a standing/stationary position without risking ripping my ACL or Achilles. Going from "0 to 60" after a certain age is asking for surgery. By the fourth quick serve, I simply dropped my racquet and caught the ball on the fourth or fifth bounce and handed it back to him. Did the same for shots 5, 6 and 7. On match point, up 40-love, he did it on me. I dropped my racquet, picked up the ball and handed it to him and shook his hand. Drop shots are all good as we're already in motion and, if I'm out of position, that's on me. But winning the points like this -- when it ended up as 6-2 6-3 6-3 felt so... unnecessary. No issue getting my can kicked to a better player but no need to show me up.
In a blow out match like the one you had, yes it’s unnecessary. Maybe he just wanted the practice that shot under game pressure.
I don't see why an underhand serve would be unclassy but drop shot's are ok. Both shots rely on catching the opponent by surprise. I think people shouldn't interpret the way someone plays too much as an implicit psychological message. In the big picture, this leads to establishing a norm of how the sport "must be played". Instead different game styles should be allowed, forcing people to compete on court against strategies that are perceived to be "unsportsmanlike" (like the "pusher"-strategy). I think shooting on someone and potentially hurting him/her is a different story.
The "unclassy" argument is reinforcing it. Look at the dropshot: it used to be unclassy and now it has become the main variation in the men's tour. "Unclassy" is perception, tradition, there is nothing objective to it. I find grunting unclassy but the tour seems to disagree nowadays. Am I more motivated or distracted by the opponent's grunting? In my case, it irritates me and I rather lose than endure it. So even the motivational argument is not necessarily true.
There are two objective reasons why it might be a good tactic: 1) surprise 2) to keep the opponent "honest" when receiving. Against Nadal or Medvedev, who are almost in the stands when receiving, I think it's a good tactic.
Obviously there are more objective reasons not to: 1) it's a weaker serve 2) the surprise element will wear off 3) it might ruin your own rhythm
Ask Bublik. He was 1 for 7 against Sonego yesterday.
i rarely use the unhand serve, but in one USTA doubles match one opponent
couldnt return it, when i hit it to his partner, he either hit a groundstroke winner or drop shot return
needless to say. i used it because the sun was bad on my side and i got stuck with the sunny side.
if used once in a while to an inexperienced opponent, it usually works
I think the last time I used the underarm serve several times was when I was playing outside on a very sunny day without sunglasses and finding it very difficult to serve without being dazzled by the sun. Trouble is a few underarm serves in a row is risky. You are right it can be thought of as teasing or disrespecting your opponent if they don’t have a sense of humour. But perhaps the odd one here and there is ok. I think Medvedev used it when he down match point as he probably thought he had nothing to lose and conceded he had already lost the match.
If it's within the rules I don't see why it's a problem.
Ok. I’m the KING of UNDERHAND SERVES wherever I go. I’ve used it in Washington, Oregon, California, Ohio, Florida and Vermont. I have a horrible arm injury that doesn’t allow me to practice serves much or at all. I’m a pro whose won prize money in 80 open tournaments. It’s just a slice approach shot. It’s nothing personal. I hate it when someone does it to me. I can’t return it well either! But I don’t tell my opponents what style or shots to use against me. It’s none of my damn business. I restrain from doing it often cause people get offended. But then I do other things which get them pissed too. Like drop shots off their weak 2nd serves. Like moving closer and approach off their serves. Like lobbing. Like moonballing. Like standing WAY back to return. Like hitting banana slice groundies. Like smashing a 100 mph 2nd serve. Like trying to use every weapon I have to win points and hopefully the match. I told one dissenter in Ohio, where I was ranked #1 in the district, I said, when he complained, “How about I’ll write down all the shots I’d like to use against you and you can check them off, which ones you’d like me to use.” I’d be happy not to use it, if my arm didn’t hurt and it the sun wasn’t in my eyes and if the wind wasn’t throwing my toss off and if I had a bigger serve. But, I kinda have this thing about losing a winnable match and about GIVING 100% EFFORT TO WIN THE MATCH BY EVERY LEGAL ETHICAL WAY POSSIBLE!!! I told another college kid, “If I play ‘normal’, you’ll beat me 100%. You don’t mind if I try to win, do you?”
At the 30-over US National Grass, I played Sven Salina, former US Open doubles semi finalist, and the club pro, all 6-foot-5 of him. On grass he beat me 7562 but it woulda been much worse if I hadn’t pulled out that weapon out of my arsenal. He wasn’t insulted. He was a gentleman. Hr taught at the club every day on grass. He had the advantage. I did what I could.
Another guy accused me of cheating the 2nd point of the match, and the ball he questioned was way out. I figured, “It’s on!” And I proceeded to crank out 15 awesome wind-aided UNDIE serves that had my opponent running INTO THE SIDE FENCE and even the UMPIRE!! Victory for me, 6361. Shoulda been 6161 but I gagged a set point at 6151 ad out.
It’s just a weapon. I’d NEVER quick serve the opponent, like ATP guys do. That’s unsportsmanlike. If I quick served them, they don’t have to return it. So, I eait til they’re 100% ready. And like he said, it loses its surprise after a while. Don’t want to overuse it. But no one has the right to tel anyone how to hit the ball. I paid my entry fee. I’ll hit the shots I want to hit. It’s not my job to teach you how to return it. Well, it actually is. Cause often I play my students in tournaments. And, yes. I try not to use it if someone will be offended, if I think I’m going to win anyway. But, like I said, I have an elbow injury that doesn’t allow me to practice overhand serves much or at all. It’s just an approach shot. It’s nothing personal.
Not insulting at all... I've never done it, but I've thought about it as a wrinkle.. as a righty, if executed well, hitting a certain spot on the court and having the ball bounce or skip off to the right and likely low and short in the box instead of the usual left for me / deeper parts of the box is huge.. i can hit the short left parts with sidespin...why not try to bounce it in ALL parts of the box consistently.. it's not bad... Also, people who have done it to me, again I took zero offense... once, I hit a good shots against it, or when the opponent sees it doesn't work on me, I feel as though my opponent is showing weakness because they are reaching at that point to find something to work against me or a situation to play out of... my opponents are welcome to do anything they want or chose, at the end of the day, it's up to me seize the opportunities I create or opportunities the opponent gives me.
Disappointing to hear Nick say that an effective, legal, non-violent tactic is unclassy and unsportsmanlike.
Next up: Lobs are unclassy.
To be fair, he says it can be *perceived* that way, not that he is passing judgment on it himself.
@@jgwil2 Well, you can't worry about very perception out there. By worrying about that perception, he is giving it value that it doesn't deserve. Just my 2 cents.
I get what you’re saying about unsportsmanlike and not classy . Unfortunately I’ve had a shoulder impingement for the last 3 months and it’s the only way I can compete at the moment . I’d rather play than not play .
It allows me to be more comfortable in a match and not worry about the crowd on the 1st court
I JUST FIND THIS VIDEO, RIGHT AFTER MAKING A QUESTION ABOUT THIS TYPE OF SERVE ON YOUR LAST VIDEO , NICE EXPLANATION, THANK YOU , BUT , NIKOLA, IM STILL DONT KNOW HOW TO RESPOND AND DEAL WITH IT , SO IF YOU HAVE TIME , I WILL APRECCIATE IF YOU CAN GIVE ME A TIP OR MAKE A VIDEO IF YOU WILLING OF COURSE , THANK YOU AGAIN
Nick Kyrgios has left the Chat.
I see little difference between using an underhand serve or a drop shot. The whole point of the game is to get a winning shot past your opponent by any method within the rules. As for what your opponent of others think, tell them to get over themselves.
It is definitely good to learn underarm serve, but definitely not the spirit of the game. When the receiver stands very far, instead of underarm serve, serve with regular action, very slow, with lot of spin and with less height. But, tough to do so?
What do you think of the new Pure Drive 2021? I see you use a previous model
It’s pretty good
I wonder if anyone can under hand serve and make it bounce back on your side without your opponent hitting it back? Would that be considered an ace?
Nick, I agree with you 99% of the time and you are absolutely the best coach on TH-cam, but I whole heartedly disagree with you on the cons of the UNDERHAND serve. As a lifetime tennis enthusiast and Sportsman, I find that the use of varying tactics and techniques contribute to the enjoyment of the game and ads way more excitement to the modern spectator. I think tennis would do well to get away from the rather bland "SNOB" etiquette... and focus on keeping the game interesting in these modern times by encouraging new moves and tactics that are within the rules. People tolerate belligerent unsportsman players like Rodderick/Kyrgo/McEnroe... but look down on a well mannered strategic player that uses a low serve?! Playing within the rules is NOT playing dirty or UNSPORTSMAN like. Shit talking is UNSPORTSMAN like. If we allow annoying screaming and grunting in tennis... then low serving is a non issue to me. Also, if it takes a low serve to make my opponent want to win more... he's not respecting me or the game. Every athlete should be playing to win at their highest level.
I get your point. It makes a lot of sense what your are sayin. Maybe I’m too much of a traditionalist, whatever it may be I just don’t like underhand serves. To each his own, many players do it now, I cringe. It is absolutely within the rules and I do like McEnroe and Connors so make some valid points. In any case thank you for your support 🙏🙏✌️✌️
I think an underarm serve should be a tweener. Make it fancy
Bublik just did that
@@Tennisbull-match-statistics yes, hope to see more
No so sure about that, if something isn’t winning me points in a match I stop doing it. Otherwise it’s just show boating
@@Tennisbull-match-statistics I did not say doing it without winning points
In the age of pickleball, the underhand serve is ok. In fact, it’s often referred to as the “pickleball” serve. If gets the opponent off the baseline and forces them to hit a volley, why wouldn’t a server use this tool once in a while to mix things up?
Cricket and baseball both have slow balls that are totally legit. The unwritten rule not to do it means there hasn't really been any reasonable development in off-speed serves. If a drop shot is effective during a rally than I don't see why a slow difficult serve to setup your next shot couldn't do the same
I'm left handed, so many opponents think I'm sinister. I am able to hit an underhanded serve, but I don't. I can hit an overhead serve that lands short, with backspin. I use it against players who seem awkward close to the net.
In a doubles match I hit my drop serve against a better player. He returned the ball poorly. I was able to finish the point. He complained to me that serve was a shitty thing to do. I stood there grinning.
He had great feel. The next time he served to me he did exactly what I expected - a short serve about as slithery as the one I hit to him. As he started to windup, I walked to the service line and easily controlled my return. We won that point and I had another grin on my face.
Yeah, I honestly do that similarly with my normal serve (not a lefty though) where I'll mix in an uncharacteristically slow, short, spinning serve if I realize my opponent has a tendency to overcook those return set-ups.
To me it just shows how egotistical and how fragile their egos are that get upset with their opponent for surprising them with an underhand serve. I get upset when players moon all me to death, or lob over my head, or ace me BUT I only berate myself for allowing my opponent to outplay me rather than find fault with their bag of tricks. Welcome any challenge that your opponent throws your way and quit being Lord Fauntleroy playing by archaic queen berry rules.
Why in the world is an underhand serve supposed to be insulting? This i don't understand. And what about the middle-of-the-rally drop shot? Is this should be insulting as well? It's about time we get rid of these 'unwritten rules' and 'traditions' which doesn't make sense and only adds to the dumbing down of the game's entertainment value.
Sir can i become a professional tennis player if i start at the age of 15 ?? Please reply NICK SIR 🙏🙏🙏
Stay tuned, I answer this question in a future video
Co-operation is a big part of tennis at Recreational level. It's about good points and a good game, apparently..
I was playing mixed doubles and whacked the ball straight at the lady on the other side..unintentionally I might add...but still kinda made me look bad.
develop a reliable and effective second serve is far more important and rewarding than developing an underhand serve. You may get a couple points doing underhand serve, but it's hard to pull off in tense situation. At tour level, it might be entertaining, but it's another story on the club level.
I disagree on the strategy argument, cause after 1 or 2 underhand services, your opponent will always have it on the back of his mind and may hesitate with his positioning.
"You will be seen as unclassy" - words I would never say to anyone who comes to me for help/advice on their tennis
Class should even be irrelevant in everyday life, let alone sporting competition
Relax buddy, no one has even come to you for help or advice in tennis, thats why youre leaving a comment on a youtube video and not actually interacting with human beings. Respect and Class are pretty much essential to any of those interactions. Put yourself out there and have more of them and it might make more sense
I'll take an unclassy winner over a classy error any day.
@@avondota2 I'm literally getting ready to head down to the tennis centre I work at for 4pm BST as I type this, cheers
Thb if u do it just once in a whole match like kyrgios did against nadal , nadal might be expecting it while another one while he wont do one anymore, coulbe a good tactic and result in more normal serve wins
The big problem with the underarm serve in rec tennis is not the legality of the serve but the type of people that use it. There is a strong overlap between the players who use it and arseholes. There is no nice way to put it.
They generally use it as an humiliation tactic against weaker players. They are the same sort of people who will play a newbie and drop shot their serve.
So you have to ask yourself, is that really a club you want to join?
100% agree. It's fine if you're injured or if the opponent is playing 10+ ft from the baseline.
Actually, it's legal and ethical 100% of the time.
@@monstertrucktennis Actually, my agreement to this video includes that the underhand serve is a completely legal shot. Not sure how ethics comes into play but I don't think it's that great of an option unless your opponent is playing your serve far back. I have no problem with Kyrgios breaking out every now and again. I do have a problem with Bublik going 1-7 with it.
Well said!
A male player used an underhand serve as his 2nd serve EVERY TIME HE MISSED HIS FIRST SERVE and none of us could believe what we were seeing this past spring during our varsity season. Our poor 2nd singles player had to endure it but thank goodness he was able to play past it and overcome the distraction.
I never thought the day will come where I disagree with the coach 😉
I think underhand serves are fun and require skills, just like a drop shot.
Returning one can be tricky as well
I wonder why the ATP has not do something about it; the fact that almost all players don’t use this tactic, reasonably many people don’t like it, but what would happen if it starts to be a fashion?
Maybe they'll revoke Nadal's slams for actually cheating. Don't hold your breath.
I strongly disagree with the fact that this type of serve is unsportsmanlike and unclassy. But anyway I respect your opinion
What if you are losing by a significant margin, and you want to get the other player out of his rythm? I agree if you are winning you better not do it
I would not underarm. That's me!
But I would never call it unclassy or get upset if someone did it to me!
I think it is strategic if you sparingly.
No need to get angry or insulted or feel unclassy..😃...As long as "underhand serve" is legal shot we shouldn't even be opiniated....its just like another shot, so be prepared to get one from opponents or use it yourself once in a while.
Great tool in the pocket at rec levels vs pushers who can't finish the ball.
I used to be about a UTR 11.5 and have beaten ATP ranked players, and UTR 13’s, and currently a UTR 9. When I use it, against the wind, I momentarily turn into a UTR 12-ish. I just can’t use it too often. Or, like you said, they get on to it. But that applies to almost any shot or tactic. It’s just one shot in my arsenal.
Yes. It works even on tour.
Davidovic-Fokina!!
Sometimes a player absolutely can lose a whole match just from 1 point.
They get soooo mad when they let an opponent get into their head.
I disagree that is "unclassy". That is like saying a dropshot is unclassy. That is just wrong. The game isn't making sure you don't surprise your opponent....
The most honest reply by sir 👍❤️
🙌🙌
IM FINE IF IT'S DONE TO NADAL!
Stalldal? Tennis's most infamous cheater.
as classy as a drop shot. beautiful part of the game.