This is so interesting Ian! I've never really seen such a comprehensive analysis and explanation of armor anywhere else, especially when talking about its components and how they interact with each other. Sure I can read about it and look at pictures, but it's not the same thing. I also like the historical background you give, with various pictures as examples. I do hope you'll eventually go all the way up to the helmet!
Zombigotron I certainly intend to take it all the way to the helmet! Hopefully when this series is done I can develop some other useful videos like armor maintenance and things that people may find useful. I appreciate the kind words!
Knyght Errant I have been really enjoying the whole video series so far. An armor maintenance video would be really appreciated. You keep everything in such good condition.
Amazing series of videos Ian. Thank you so much for taking the time to film them. Everything is really useful. And I must confess I never looked into leg suspension systems before i saw your videos. I really enjoy your channel and I hope you produce many more entertaining and informative videos. Keep up the good work and thank you for the effort.
Awesome stuff! most of this I already knew, but you show it all very methodical, keep up the good work! I'm shearing this to many friends that need to learn about armour :)
LARPBeard Thanks. Yeah I realize that most of the veteran re-enactors and armor enthusiasts already know most of this information, but my goal in making this is to get out the information I wish I had when I was starting. It was a long hard road of trial and error, and wasting money for me. Hopefully the new guys can benefit from our mistakes and our knowledge :)
I'm only going by what I've read in Dr Capwell's book on English armour, but your leg setup seems relatively continental, at least on that end of the spectrum. Did you choose it deliberately or was it inspired by a particular example? By which I mean, I understand that 3 traits to be typically English were: To have the poleyn assembly separate from the cuisses and greaves, making the leg armour into a 3-piece affair. For the greaves to be attached via rectangular turn-pins with no additional leather strap around the top of the greave. And to have fully enclosed cuisses wherever possible and all gaps to be covered by mail voiders, with a smaller versions of the couter on the inside of the knee (except the type that used besagews, they didn't usually have any plate protecting the inner knee) Also, more about the greaves than the cuisses but I understand that a uniquely English feature was a lobe that extended back from the shin plate at the bottom of the greave to cover the malleolus and overlap the otherwise gap between greave and sabaton.
Dr. Capwell's research had not been published when these were built in 2011. Most of us got our hands on his book in the Fall of 2015, and it has prompted a lot of changes in the way people viewed (and build) English armor. Since then my legs have been modified to include fully closed cuisses. Most of the other features would require an entire replacement. Another common solution to the gap on the greaves is simply the use of a mail voider, which we also see consistently in use by the English at that spot. That's currently in the works (I've got the mail for that, and for behind the knee voiders) but will require I sew up some new arming shoes and hose. Dr. Capwell's book also prompted the modifications to my arm harness that can be seen in my much more recent videos.
I had just seen the arm harness one, and seen the attention to detail in there, but that makes sense now. Looking forward to seeing the new version when its finished.
We see that on some much later armors, but I've never seen evidence for that in the 14th century. We also benefit from hindsight, whereas the 14th century was largely a century dedicated to the development and experimentation of plate armor.
I was looking at this post after spending much time fitting and modifying greaves to fit the rest of the leg . They had a compelling reason to make the greave removable from the demigreave ! Certainly not because they didn't consider the possibility of the simpler riveting greave to demigreave . Perhaps use of greaves on horseback necessary to protect the leg from attack from soldiers on foot . Not as needed fighting on foot .
Hey, Ian. Are there any examples of a leg harness consisting of only the mail, cuisses, and knee cops without the full greave? Is the greave or the cuisse more important if a soldier can only afford one? For that question assume that too poor for a set of greaves means too poor for a horse.
I know this isn't exactly what you're asking about, but on knightly level armors where we don't see a full plate leg harness,sometimes we just see a knee cop over mail, sometimes a greave and knee with just a padded cuisse, and sometimes what looks like a splinted cuisse, plate knee, and no greave at all. It's not really easy to say that one particular piece was more common than the other, rather just that we see a variety in the age where a full plate leg wasn't totally ubiquitous. As far as lower level infantry, it's virtually impossible to say since we don't really have many ways to tell.
I'm a bit curious about back of the knee protection. Are there armors that offer more? Were mail voiders commonly used, or were they normally left bare? Great series by the way, I love the attention to detail.
+DoktorWeasel Thank you! Yes, we do see small patches of mail being worn to protect the back of the knee on many effigies (it doesn't seem to be universal, but it's not uncommon on the examples where you can see the back of the knee). It is something I'd like to add to my base layer in the future, but I haven't done it yet. In the 16th century they started to use compression lames which could actually fully enclose the inside of joints like the knee and elbow, but that would be well over a century away from what I wear. Here's a closeup of the knee on the Edward of Woodstock (Black Prince) effigy ca.1376 (www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/1599652661/)
I was hoping you could show with a period weapon or something of equal thickness, just how much space there is to insert a blade into the holes and spaces between pieces of armour.
Hello, your videos are very informative and interesting. I have a questions question regarding plate leg protection. As illustrated with your leg harness, the knee protection is attached to the thigh protection, which is then pinned/strapped to the lower leg protection. However, are there examples of the knee protection being attached to the lower leg protection if there is no hip protection? More specifically, integrated polyn and greave with NO cuisses?
I'm unaware of any poelyns integrated directly into a greave in the absence of a cuisse, but there are stand-alone poleyns that can be worn on their own without anything else. A separate poleyn like that could be worn with a greave, it isn't permanently assembled to it.
Your videos are great, but I wish you had just a TAD bit more enthusiasm in your videos... what are cool historical armour parts you love? And so on. Drop them in there!
Would the 3 piece floating legs harness(plate cuisse, poleyn, and and greave) be completely out by 1360-1380? On the pistoia altarpiece, the gentleman wearing the early salade and the figure in the bascinet to his right both appear to be wearing the full floating legs, and looking at your timeline, I think I would fall ok in that bracket.
_Why_ is always the million dollar question, and I don't know for sure. That being said, as you add permanent articulations to things, you tend to decrease overall mobility. Even though they are pinned and strapped together in the configuration I showed (and often _only_ strapped if connected at all in a lot of historical examples) there is still a decent amount of play between those components. That would be significantly reduced if they were articulated, making the need for a near perfect fit all the more important. As the cuisses shift, if there is no play they may push your greaves down into the instep of your foot. My arms for example, are articulated to the shoulders. They will never be quite as mobile as separate shoulders strapped to a separate arm harness. They may have thought that for ease of making them, for fit, and for mobility, that separate components were best for legs. Much later (into the 16th c) we do see legs made in one large assembly in some cases. We would also need to take into account the path that armor took in its development. Certain things may have simply not been obvious innovations to people who were very used to the _right way_ to make certain components.
Gothic harness? It would be very atypical. The usual configuration of mail on the lower body for a gothic armor is a short skirt and/or a brayette of mail. A lot of gothic armors are horseman's armors, so the inside of the thigh and back of the knee become very hard to access by virtue of being mounted. You see mail on the back of the knee much more commonly on things like early 15th c English armors optimized to fight on foot.
@@KnyghtErrant thanks Errant! Im writing a high fantasy story with a large focus on historical accuracy, i was thinking of combining the best parts of plate, would they wear pants made from gambeson ? I absolutely love your videos, cant wait for more!
@@andrelaboy2002 Ah cool! On historical armors the use of mail depends on a combination of what the armor is intended for (cavalry, foot combat, tournament etc., ) and the regional styles; Italians tended to wear mail differently than Germans for example. There is a type of textile leg defense called _gamboised cuisses_ which are essentially quilted armor for the thighs. These are usually worn as a standalone defense or worn _over_ mail leggings, not under plate or anything like that. Typically if you have a plate leg harness there's not much in the way of padding on underneath it, usually just a thick pair of wool hose.
+edi It doesn't take too long to get fully harnessed up in a kit like mine. Here you can see exactly how long it takes me th-cam.com/video/k24y_ZmxRHg/w-d-xo.html
![The Wall Song ร้องข้ามกำแพง | EP.215 | พาเวล นเรศ - พูห์ กฤติน | 17 ต.ค. 67 [1/5]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/IUzrjuf60P4/mqdefault.jpg)
Very interesting and very well made friend, thumbs up for you ^^
I dont think he made it
He meant that it was a nice vid
This is so interesting Ian!
I've never really seen such a comprehensive analysis and explanation of armor anywhere else, especially when talking about its components and how they interact with each other.
Sure I can read about it and look at pictures, but it's not the same thing.
I also like the historical background you give, with various pictures as examples.
I do hope you'll eventually go all the way up to the helmet!
Zombigotron I certainly intend to take it all the way to the helmet! Hopefully when this series is done I can develop some other useful videos like armor maintenance and things that people may find useful. I appreciate the kind words!
Knyght Errant I have been really enjoying the whole video series so far. An armor maintenance video would be really appreciated. You keep everything in such good condition.
3:45 those babies have been doing their core workouts.
Only noticed that they were dashing/chopping babies to death because of this comment, lol.
The one held by the ankle is like "WTF did I do, man?"
you are doing a truly excellent job, thank you!
Amazing series of videos Ian. Thank you so much for taking the time to film them. Everything is really useful. And I must confess I never looked into leg suspension systems before i saw your videos. I really enjoy your channel and I hope you produce many more entertaining and informative videos. Keep up the good work and thank you for the effort.
Awesome stuff! most of this I already knew, but you show it all very methodical, keep up the good work!
I'm shearing this to many friends that need to learn about armour :)
LARPBeard Thanks. Yeah I realize that most of the veteran re-enactors and armor enthusiasts already know most of this information, but my goal in making this is to get out the information I wish I had when I was starting. It was a long hard road of trial and error, and wasting money for me. Hopefully the new guys can benefit from our mistakes and our knowledge :)
Knyght Errant ... and new girls... ;)
Very very interesting. I just subscribed and im gonna watch all your clips. Great work and great information Ian.
I really like your vids, very informative thank you very much it means a lot to me and brings me a lot of joy during this weird quarantine time
What are the main differences in functionality between Late Medieval Italian vs German armours?
Watching again this older video, I miss the majetic beard, and the bascinet intro even more !
9:32: Nice leg, baby!
I'm only going by what I've read in Dr Capwell's book on English armour, but your leg setup seems relatively continental, at least on that end of the spectrum. Did you choose it deliberately or was it inspired by a particular example?
By which I mean, I understand that 3 traits to be typically English were:
To have the poleyn assembly separate from the cuisses and greaves, making the leg armour into a 3-piece affair.
For the greaves to be attached via rectangular turn-pins with no additional leather strap around the top of the greave.
And to have fully enclosed cuisses wherever possible and all gaps to be covered by mail voiders, with a smaller versions of the couter on the inside of the knee (except the type that used besagews, they didn't usually have any plate protecting the inner knee)
Also, more about the greaves than the cuisses but I understand that a uniquely English feature was a lobe that extended back from the shin plate at the bottom of the greave to cover the malleolus and overlap the otherwise gap between greave and sabaton.
Dr. Capwell's research had not been published when these were built in 2011. Most of us got our hands on his book in the Fall of 2015, and it has prompted a lot of changes in the way people viewed (and build) English armor. Since then my legs have been modified to include fully closed cuisses. Most of the other features would require an entire replacement. Another common solution to the gap on the greaves is simply the use of a mail voider, which we also see consistently in use by the English at that spot. That's currently in the works (I've got the mail for that, and for behind the knee voiders) but will require I sew up some new arming shoes and hose. Dr. Capwell's book also prompted the modifications to my arm harness that can be seen in my much more recent videos.
I had just seen the arm harness one, and seen the attention to detail in there, but that makes sense now. Looking forward to seeing the new version when its finished.
In 14th century leg harnesses , were the greaves ever permanently connected to the demigreaves ? (riveted ) . Love your show !!
John Dumbeltion
i was asking myself the same question. i dont see a reason why it should not be permanently attached
We see that on some much later armors, but I've never seen evidence for that in the 14th century. We also benefit from hindsight, whereas the 14th century was largely a century dedicated to the development and experimentation of plate armor.
I was looking at this post after spending much time fitting and modifying greaves to fit the rest of the leg . They had a compelling reason to make the greave removable from the demigreave ! Certainly not because they didn't consider the possibility of the simpler riveting greave to demigreave . Perhaps use of greaves on horseback necessary to protect the leg from attack from soldiers on foot . Not as needed fighting on foot .
Hey, Ian. Are there any examples of a leg harness consisting of only the mail, cuisses, and knee cops without the full greave? Is the greave or the cuisse more important if a soldier can only afford one? For that question assume that too poor for a set of greaves means too poor for a horse.
I know this isn't exactly what you're asking about, but on knightly level armors where we don't see a full plate leg harness,sometimes we just see a knee cop over mail, sometimes a greave and knee with just a padded cuisse, and sometimes what looks like a splinted cuisse, plate knee, and no greave at all. It's not really easy to say that one particular piece was more common than the other, rather just that we see a variety in the age where a full plate leg wasn't totally ubiquitous. As far as lower level infantry, it's virtually impossible to say since we don't really have many ways to tell.
I'm a bit curious about back of the knee protection. Are there armors that offer more? Were mail voiders commonly used, or were they normally left bare?
Great series by the way, I love the attention to detail.
+DoktorWeasel Thank you! Yes, we do see small patches of mail being worn to protect the back of the knee on many effigies (it doesn't seem to be universal, but it's not uncommon on the examples where you can see the back of the knee). It is something I'd like to add to my base layer in the future, but I haven't done it yet. In the 16th century they started to use compression lames which could actually fully enclose the inside of joints like the knee and elbow, but that would be well over a century away from what I wear.
Here's a closeup of the knee on the Edward of Woodstock (Black Prince) effigy ca.1376 (www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/1599652661/)
+Knyght Errant Very cool, thanks!
love your video's! realy inspiring.
1 question: don't the legs need no form off padding?
Hi, thank you. No, well fitted plate armor doesn't really require padding on the legs.
thanks, your videos are very usefull for creating armour yourself. very detailed.
I was hoping you could show with a period weapon or something of equal thickness, just how much space there is to insert a blade into the holes and spaces between pieces of armour.
Hello, your videos are very informative and interesting. I have a questions question regarding plate leg protection. As illustrated with your leg harness, the knee protection is attached to the thigh protection, which is then pinned/strapped to the lower leg protection. However, are there examples of the knee protection being attached to the lower leg protection if there is no hip protection? More specifically, integrated polyn and greave with NO cuisses?
I'm unaware of any poelyns integrated directly into a greave in the absence of a cuisse, but there are stand-alone poleyns that can be worn on their own without anything else. A separate poleyn like that could be worn with a greave, it isn't permanently assembled to it.
Thicc thigh armor saves lives.
Question can a floating leg and arm brigadine harness be paired with full plate torso armor during 14th century?
Your videos are great, but I wish you had just a TAD bit more enthusiasm in your videos... what are cool historical armour parts you love? And so on. Drop them in there!
Would the 3 piece floating legs harness(plate cuisse, poleyn, and and greave) be completely out by 1360-1380? On the pistoia altarpiece, the gentleman wearing the early salade and the figure in the bascinet to his right both appear to be wearing the full floating legs, and looking at your timeline, I think I would fall ok in that bracket.
I don't see anything wrong with that. Would it be the most fashionable up-to-date armor? No. But it's perfectly serviceable.
This guy is like the Carter Murray of medieval armor
Does it excist a blueprint for armour peaces like these?
Any size, just so i can get a clear picture of it.
Do you have a video where you talk about faulds?
+StygianEmperor They're talked about a bit in the breastplate video here: th-cam.com/video/ExJdZigxn-M/w-d-xo.html
Why were the greaves and demigrieves not one piece?
why didn't they just rivet the knee and cuisses to the greaves rather than just strap them?
_Why_ is always the million dollar question, and I don't know for sure. That being said, as you add permanent articulations to things, you tend to decrease overall mobility. Even though they are pinned and strapped together in the configuration I showed (and often _only_ strapped if connected at all in a lot of historical examples) there is still a decent amount of play between those components. That would be significantly reduced if they were articulated, making the need for a near perfect fit all the more important. As the cuisses shift, if there is no play they may push your greaves down into the instep of your foot. My arms for example, are articulated to the shoulders. They will never be quite as mobile as separate shoulders strapped to a separate arm harness. They may have thought that for ease of making them, for fit, and for mobility, that separate components were best for legs. Much later (into the 16th c) we do see legs made in one large assembly in some cases. We would also need to take into account the path that armor took in its development. Certain things may have simply not been obvious innovations to people who were very used to the _right way_ to make certain components.
Was mail worn on the back of the knee while wearing a gothic harness ?
Gothic harness? It would be very atypical. The usual configuration of mail on the lower body for a gothic armor is a short skirt and/or a brayette of mail. A lot of gothic armors are horseman's armors, so the inside of the thigh and back of the knee become very hard to access by virtue of being mounted. You see mail on the back of the knee much more commonly on things like early 15th c English armors optimized to fight on foot.
@@KnyghtErrant thanks Errant! Im writing a high fantasy story with a large focus on historical accuracy, i was thinking of combining the best parts of plate, would they wear pants made from gambeson ? I absolutely love your videos, cant wait for more!
@@andrelaboy2002 Ah cool! On historical armors the use of mail depends on a combination of what the armor is intended for (cavalry, foot combat, tournament etc., ) and the regional styles; Italians tended to wear mail differently than Germans for example. There is a type of textile leg defense called _gamboised cuisses_ which are essentially quilted armor for the thighs. These are usually worn as a standalone defense or worn _over_ mail leggings, not under plate or anything like that. Typically if you have a plate leg harness there's not much in the way of padding on underneath it, usually just a thick pair of wool hose.
@@KnyghtErrant thanks again knyght!!!!!
Man, it msut take ages to dress up for battle. A common soldier would probably need only 1/5th of the time (gambesson, mail, brigandine, helmet)
+edi It doesn't take too long to get fully harnessed up in a kit like mine. Here you can see exactly how long it takes me th-cam.com/video/k24y_ZmxRHg/w-d-xo.html