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@@JayEmmOnCarshaha :((( people over the age of 60 shouldn't be allowed to vote for such things. I was 17 when the Brexit vote happened so I had no vote, and now the country I was born in and planned to live my life in, is in economic ruins and I'm planning to move to Europe.
True, I worked for a Porsche dealer in '05 and u could get a discount (though they didnt want to do that), but if u waved a check infront of them, u could get extras instead of a discount say a power upgrade flush, fancier wheels, stuff like that. PS: they used to make 5-6K of profit on the fancier wheels alone.
I think a more accurate title would be cheap credit has now finished. Blowing £100k of credit on a new sports car isn't the top of everyone's agenda since their mortgage repayments have doubled.
Doubled is slightly overstating it - but not by much - my mortgage rolling over this year have meant I now have nearly $2000 less per month for discretionary spending - enough that it certainly rules out buying any more cars for a while that's for sure! He does mention the cost of finance in the video - but yeah, it'll be impacting all the luxury brands.
@@michaelyounes29 im int he states, last car I financed was 93k with 35k down. Rate was 2.9. Now the rate would be 8 or so. So now I have to buy cash tie up an additional 70k that I could be using in the market to make at least 8 percent. Before the loans were running at or below inflation essentially borrowing was smarter than paying cash
@@michaelyounes29 some people have mortgages. Those that don’t can either buy a Porsche or boat or whatever, or invest in shares / property or whatever. Take government bonds (risk free assets) return has gone up so much over last year or two. Same for more “risky” assets. Point being it’s that much harder to justify toys for all. Also means the price of assets has downward pressure is property, floating rate bonds, infra assets as the “risk free yield” goes up which doesn’t help sentiment
Interesting times ahead! I just hope the outcome is that more of the GT cars find their way into the hands of real driving enthusiasts rather than the speculators.
Exactly, I'm a fortunate person that owns a 991 speedster, Dakar, Sport Classic, GT3RS Tribute and a Trubo S cab and I drive everyone of them. They deserve to be driven and deserve the respect to be used what they were made for. I don't worry about value. I own them to enjoy. And even if the market goes down. I'm a collector and long term holder.
I have always said the best way to get value out of a car is to buy one you really like and then drive it as much and for as long as possible. Enjoyment, extensive use and not caring about resale value is the way to go.
I agree with 1000%. True love on the car should be the driving force to own the car. Resale value should be the extra bonus but should not be the main focus of owning a car.
Agreed. Cars are not good for investment in general. I have a 2005 BMW 330Ci Conv. ZHP and a 2016 MB GLE 450 AMG Coupe. No reason to buy another vehicle for quite a while. Both are a pleasure to drive.
This is a great reminder to buy the car because YOU want to own and drive it! Don't buy it because of it's perceived future value to other people! The market is slowly returning to some semblance of harmony and equilibrium. This is equally true in the UK market as it is in the US right now.
All across the board, not limited to UK & US. Couldn't agree more. Saw it in watches as well, troves of "investors" (who don't know a thing of horology) flocking to the hobby when it started showing its potential the past 6-7 years (but especially during covid of course), only buying references that were "sure" to appreciate in some ridiculous way, never buying watches because they actually liked them... so the whole claim that they were "watch guys" never stood up, as it they all chased the same things for the same reasons, no individuality whatsoever, just ticking off entries on a checklist. Of course we see it often with cars too, as discussed here... and many other luxury segments. People end up being clones of one another, collections so homogenized... full of desirable stuff, but also devoid of meaning when hoarded en masse like that "just because". Sorry for the rant!
But the entire reason most Porsche owners buy (and pay a premium) for cars is because it is an aspiration ... and all the perception of success that comes with it. I'd wager a typical 992 or 993 owner would even refuse to set foot in a 996 even as a passenger if you were to offer him a lift ...
Having been through this recently with 2 Porsches, let’s not forget the air of arrogance shown by the dealerships “oh no sir, you can’t just buy the car, we allow you to buy one” this never sat well with me. Beautiful things for sure, but the dealerships are just crooks, wait until you get your first service bill 😮
In the UK Porsche servicing is menu based so you know in advance what you will be paying. Compared with many of its direct competitors servicing is reasonable.
Same with the premium watch market. Authorized retailers had a waiting list (they say). The gray market was the only way to get a premium watch and off course at a premium price. It became a flippers dream.
Yep. I bought a Rolex Submariner about 10 years ago, wore it daily for about 5 years, then sold it for a nice profit. I'm not a flipper but I did benefit from their game. I actually traded my first Rolex for a profit but I upgraded to a nicer Submariner and used the profit to pay the difference.
The only AD with a waiting list is Rolex and the likes of omega decided they would pump up prices for their 90th version of a speedmaster etc. I loved watches until about three years ago when I lost all interest, they’re nice but the engineering isn’t actually there to warrant the daft increase or exclusivity the manufacturers are pushing. I’m pretty sure omega came out with a titanium seamaster for some daft which it’s never ever going to be worth unless your a fool with to much money and an ego to feed.
@@xopelvi2796 It'll be Macans and Taycans people are probably realising that the depreciation on electric cars are horrendous. Unless you get electric car as a company car if you buy a Taycan outright in the first year you'll probably lose £30-£40k.
I have been wanting a 992 for the past few years but I couldn’t find myself paying the overpriced listing. I am a car enthusiast. If we, as consumers, decide not to buy the Porsche at these ridiculous prices, then prices will have to come down as they are now. Hope that trend continues.
It's all relative, so all car prices are coming down. Look at the EV market for example for new and old cars. This video is misleading just focusing on Porsche. No other manufacturer makes a car so all round desirable as the GT cars for petrol heads which is why they routinely go over rrp. Nobody is paying overs for Ferrari and Lamborghini because they don't offer the same broad appeal and image. As soon as the market slows by general market and global forces the overs prices will drop but it's a fallacy to says it's just the Porsche market and dreamland to think Porsche will lower prices when a well specced M3 is now around £100k 😂
His video is about Porsche because Porsches are the ones that held the value the most and remained the most difficult cars to get long after covid was over
Not just the sports car market... Gonna be all markets. This is just a precursor. People are liquidating whatever they can. Then it's stocks, then homes. Feels like it's finally happening.
I've been saying for ages that the car market is like the 2008 housing market. They're all on finance and when people get out of their pcp, the manufacturers will be sat on scores of used cars that fall well below their predicted future value.
Is nothing like houses or the stock market. Go look at your pensions as they have done crap for the last several years. Porsche got greedy and increased prices while interest rates shot up. The result is you have GTS coupe that are at list well over £150000 !! Crazy.
A lot of people who bought a GT3, bought it to speculate… thinking that they’d use it for a year and then they would resell it without loosing any money, or even maybe making some profit… thats why there are soooo many used GT3 992 on sale… the selling price is overpriced obviously, that’s why they are not getting sold. Buyers are not stupid anymore… at least not the majority. PS: Very good video!! I love your videos!!
@@stephankl632 It’s not. The head of Porsche’s GT division said he will continue to make NA GT cars for as long as he’s apart of the company. Not sure why that rumor started spreading, no real facts that I’ve seen to support it.
Buyers are still stupid, but now they have to do it with their own money. I'm pretty sure they haven't wised up, and would happily spend ludicrous amounts still if they had access to it.
Hopefully it will trickle down to the more pedestrian models as well. Right before the market went insane I was finally in a position to afford a used Boxster S. Then they doubled in price overnight! Hopefully they'll come back to Earth soon...
Due to the rise in car thefts and the ridiculous increase of insurance prices on cars, a lot more people will be selling their cars so I have a feeling car prices should start dropping at a reasonably fast rate.
They'll never be priced anywhere near as low as they were. New sports cars are getting bigger, heavier, softer and more expensive. Proper little sports cars like that will hold their value forever now I think :((
Be great to see sports cars on their lots again. Currently in a position where I can buy my dream 911 but not at the inflated prices and not going to just take whatever they have available. This one will be, eventually, a keeper.
And thats also what Porsche wants. These cars are meant to be driven, more so than any other supercar manufacturer. Porsche didnt spend all that R&D to create a brilliant car like the new GT3 RS just for it to sit in a garage.
So many of the new Turbo S's available on the Porsche website are ridiculously over optioned. You can only think that the OPC's have ordered these for their stock, massively specced up to try and make as much margin as possible, which would probably have been fine at the peak of the market when cars were short, but now no one is buying them they are going to really struggle to shift them without significant discount.
Agree 100pc with your observations. The cars arriving into stock are over optioned and with build slots freely available even the 8pc discounts don't make them appealing
@@fliptomylou8880 Hmm... I dunno where you're getting dual 4090s from. I do see a single waterblocked GPU and CPU. Maybe you're looking at the 2x 360(?)mm radiators.
This video came out at the right time for me. I’m in the US looking to purchase my first Porsche, a base 911, and thought the dealer markups was something normal. I’ll be sure to not fall into this trap. Thank you!
California is a bad place to buy a Porsche sports car especially as a first time owner. Haven't looked in a while but anything outside a base Macan, Taycan, or Cayenne will still have some ADM
@@joe718gt4 yeahhh I had a dealer offer me an allocation for a base carrera but wanted 5k ADM. Didn’t that it was that bad in the grand scheme of things. Decided to hold out for a .2 allocation.
Just wait, save your money, buy something fun and cheap to play around with and just wait for a bit, the market is finally starting to go back to normal but it’s going to take a long time for it to get back to the point where markups aren’t the norm.
Yes I'm also looking and so far all the top cars are still over msrp even on used I'm in the market to own one and drive the dang thing not to make money or call it a investment I want a 911 gt3 so anyone who wants to sell at or under msrp I'm interested
I was an existing Porsche customer this time last year wanted to buy a new car all I heard was 2 year wait if you’re lucky and we can’t sell you anything and btw apr is now 14% so unfortunately left the brand, they just weren’t interested so now all the people they dismissed they now need…good luck
If it doesn't have to be the latest and greatest, and the dealer shenanigans aside, have you tried looking for your ideal car in the used market? I know the used market for Porsches hasn't simmered down entirely, but considering this is on the verge, why not give it another go? Just for searching, at least? I'm sure there's something out there...
Same here. Was willing to purchase a gt3, was willing to wait also but was laughed out of every dealership. After 6 months of watching used examples going up I completely gave up. It’s been almost 2 years now I won’t buy from Porsche dealer but once the second hand market crashes I’ll pick one up then. Great plan Porsche. Way to lose a boatload of new customers just to keep a bunch of previous customers rich. Let’s see what happens now.
@@zooski1516 was annoying when they go on about how little stock they had and used prices are crazy then offer me £15k less for a trade in on exact same Car and spec on forecourt! Even though just had full service with them and new tyres! Apparently Carmine Red isn’t a popular colour lol. Was a Macan GTS lol
Great video, the same thing is happening in the property market too, the amount of properties which have huge discounts around London ( some up to 50%) cheap money is no longer a thing and as people realise interest rates will be higher for longer they are rushing to get out.
I live in Detroit and have worked in over 50 car plants and I can tell you you are spot on. You absolutely nailed it. $75000 US for an average Bronco. And you have to wait 6 months to get it. Crazy!! What comes next is the bigger question.
What happens next is a slow and steady decile over the next decade where 911s depreciate more and more, especially as EV sports cars come out and create s sports car revolution. Anyone that buys a 911 today will lose way more money than even a regular car.
Best cartuber vid I've seen. Awesome amount of facts and zero clickbait. Looks like the Porsche crowd are learning the hard lesson the watch business has experienced over the last year. The heavy hitters are losing huge amounts and Rolex are getting back to list price on every model.
@@janon128 Paul Thorpe has a good channel with loads of vids on watch prices. There's a lot of Rolex content, especially about the 'for display only' debacle 😏
I’m in my late 60s….retired Navy Officer and retired Federal LEO. The year I turned 50, coincided with making O6 in the Navy….and I gifted myself a pristine very low mileage 944S2 Cabriolet. I drive her only in good weather….keep up with her service…..and last summer I tripped her clock @ 60k miles. I love the car, it gets positive comments and questions everywhere I go (with one gent recently asking me “is that the new Boxer?). Anyway, I’ve always wanted a 911….and recently, I’ve half-heartedly been looking for one. But……maybe not? I’m too “senior” to consider paying “stupid money”! Anyway…brilliant insight in this video, sir….Bravo-Zulu, well done.
That spiral you describe at around 15:00 reminded me of the situation that led to 2008s economic crisis. A bit like a micro-version of that, really. Either way, like many others here, I can only hope that the "buying a car as an investment"-phenomenon will decrease again to a decent level (i.e., only for exclusive old classic cars). That way, these special Porsches can get used as Porsche intended.
Yeah the upside down realestate side with folks panicing and prices falling well below the amount financed ....becoming upside down is an awful feeling especially for anything non classic that depreciates with age as the new and improved version of the model keeps coming forth and the car in question becomes more and more "long on tooth"
this phenomenon will never go away. The sellers depicted here are losers. They are either too impatient or do not have the money to be patient. They should wait 10 years,
We are living in times where the young people are the first generation EVER to actually earn less than their parents all the while everything is getting massively more expensive. Cars are just one tiny aspect of it. The prices are never coming down. That being said there are still quite a lot of cars that are losing value massively and are affordable. Look at any maseratis or jags. If you want a 10k car that has the repair bill of a 150k car you can still do it.
How did Porsche really intend their modern more affordable cars to be used though? In Germany there are now car-free towns, a backlash against exhaust noise which is creating lower speed limits as the assumption is they're speeding and on the increase. My Porsche would spend most of its life on the driveway or work's car park and only ever used to around 30% on UK roads of its capability unless it's tracked which can get more expensive than top level Karting.
Yep. It’s why I bought an MX-5 ND2. In this market it’s the only thing that makes sense. And I don’t feel like I’ve compromised at all as it’s so much fun to drive.
Jay, you are correct about being able to walk into a dealer and purchase a GT2/3. I did so back in 2005 and the salesman was shocked I was even asking for one. He literally started asking me about tracking it and other such fanatics. He took me for a test drive in a Carrera 4S. He made His point. Now the story is flipped of course. $150,000 extra for a GT3, ouch 🤕! 😢
I have a 991.1 GT3 and modified and 63,500 miles (four tours of Spain), no finance, but car insurance in London quintupled, so now have the expense of secure parking. Many people are being scared off by huge increase in insurance premiums (mine £2k to £11k)
It just seemed weird that at the point where I was old enough and finally making enough money to get into the top tier cars that they boosted into stratospheric prices. I refused to follow the prices up, figuring that everything will eventually return to sane levels.
@@DeuceDeuceBravo Eh, I don't think so. I think everyone got bored at the exact same moment and had a yolo moment. For covid I bought a boat, went fishing every day. Hell I didn't care anything about GT3's until I saw LZ tearing around in one.
@@CommonArea-y5i Agreed on COVID boredom. Hence the overlanding/camping popularity. But the stats on wealth generation over the last 10 years are crazy.
@@DeuceDeuceBravo I mean production went crazy too in the last decade. But like the guy said, production stopped, and anything that you can buy, play with, and then make money on is going to bring out the loans and the cash like wild. The "outdoorsy" stuff like van travel, mtb-ing, and def boats went wild because it was outside stuff in a locked inside pandemic. A second tier I will offer is that on prices. So many people decided that they weren't coming off of service or product unless it was worth their renewed sense of self and time. I was running a business, did the same thing. If you want a piece of my time that kept me from fishing or traveling it was going to have to be well worth it. No more racing the rats, everyone looked up and realized they liked their time more than what they were making, so.....prices.
@@CommonArea-y5i Yeah but also a lot of new money guys were born during that period and they don't understand the value of money or anything, these brands knew that whether car brands or luxury fashion brands and they slapped the prices up significantly so everyone that had to grind and learn the value of money over time were ultimately punished because although we know x car shouldn't be more than 130k, this 18yr that just hit the jackpot on some crypto is willing to pay 230k just to say he paid next to quarter million on a car😂
What a nice thing to see the market slowly being returned to the collector / buyer. Was long overdue. I am hugely into watches as well, and the same thing has been happening there.
I also think life in general became an awful lot more expensive in the past 2-3 years because of the crazy inflation, which does not really motivate anyone to spend money, especially brand new car/barely used car big money.
Great video Jay :) My favourite game as a small town car salesman is to watch high end dealers inventory continue to be discounted by $10K - $150K very week on “so called, rare or investment cars” that they bought in peek market when wholesale prices didn’t exist because everyone was paying over. Thank goodness I buy Hondas’s and Toyota’s to resell. In southern Ontario, Canada dealers have been dropping prices like crazy. With used car interest rates now around 9% you better have cash for that Porsche or G Wagen. The days of cheap finance money are gone and only the truly wealthy are in the market now looking to capitalize on the downward trend. Don’t be fooled by BAT and others sites showing inflated prices. I’ve seen people manipulate markets at auctions for decades. It’s the same group of people who buy and comment everyday. They’re protecting there assets because they have a garage full of them. Buy what you love and drive the hell out of it or shine it up and keep it mint. Less then 1% of cars increase in value over time.
dude ironically Honda & Toyota overpriced for what they are too..& this is coming from someone mixed w/ Japanese & only driven Lexus since the start..now theyre kinda boring & made for soccer moms & tho' the Germans & Italians can't get the reliability..theyre the most exciting & dynamic to drive..tho' if I could get that new body Honda/Acura NSX..but it needs carbon fiber monocoque safety..not that lame aluminum space-frame..if it had that..but for the lack of safety..gotta go i8 or 911 for the monocoque/unibody chassis
@@henrylam92 Depends on what you're buying, there's a reason they're marked up. When I wanted to replace the runabout Lexus, my only option with real leather and an infotainment system that wasn't braindead like current Lexus was an Avalon. You now need to buy a Super Luxury trim on Lexus just to get what you used to get with Base and suffer with the not-quite-touchpad nonsense.
Luxury watches as well. Interest rates have caused a slow down and people are reconsidering their choices. Love these deep dives into what's happening!
Excellent video Jay. To further make the point, as of yesterday (14th Nov 2023) the Porsche UK website was listing 226 NEW, unregistered 911s. Of these 45% were Turbos or Turbo S models. I’ve never seen new 911s available from stock never mind more than 200. Of course this in part will be due to Porsche clearing their parts inventory ready for the 992.2 build program.
Excellent recap and timeline. Seriously… spot on! I’m completely ok with where we’re headed. Sold my 997.2 C4S past peak but broke even for 6 years of ownership and 45k miles put on it. To drive it for “free” during that time feels like a luxury. Keeping my 991.2 T basically forever and would gladly add a GT3T if prices felt like they were tethered to planet earth.
nah....chronological innacuraices abound. no more goodwill in 2010 becauwe of deieselgate in 2015. 911r's at £1m....edge cases easily disproved with google.
I’m not sure all of his details are true. 911R worth £1mm? When did this ever happen? I don’t recall a US 911 R ever selling for over $500k. Just one example of facts being exaggerated to fit a narrative l
I can confirm that 911R’s were listed for £1,000,000+. Romans intentional had one for example. If you were around the car scene in 2015/6/7 you would have seen this.
@@liamgell Been around a wee bitty longer than 15 / 16. That was a clickbait article that did him no favours. ALL cars have lost a whack in the last few months…no need to sensationalise. But hey, you just suck that up mate and believe that there was a £1m 911r unicorn out there.
Fascinating analysis with lots of real-time data to back it up, thanks! One additional observation is that smaller specialist finance companies that advanced money on the basis of high residual balloons are likely to come under a lot of stress if cars are returned at the end of their finance term as many owners won't want to re-finance at today's interest rates and underlying market valuations. One point you made personally struck home - I bought an end of line-up 2015 Boxter 981GTS as a daily driver in around 2019 partly on the basis that Porsche declared it would be the last naturally aspirated model that wouldn't be replicated in the 718 range and hence might become a future modern classic ....except that didn't turn out to be true. In my personal case, I'm pleased that I didn't have to finance the purchase and am happy to affordably enjoy it every day. Many others might become in the 'negative equity' trap you outlined.
Yes I think the entire sports/ supercar bubble has burst at the same time the interest rates went up. Good for genuine car buyers bad for flippers this will hopefully change the allocation game or at least make sure the right people get the cars. I would say if you have a car like this enjoy it let the tough times pass.
To a point. However, Porsche is unique because they are so much cheaper. Those who want Ferraris etc. will still be able to pay higher prices for them. The Porsche market hits the mid market a lot more with people who finance, only own one or two sports cars etc. Ferrari for example still sell the same cars and they did the smart thing, because they never got on this insane bandwagon of ADM. Porsche USA has spent the last five years shafting all their loyal long time clients, Ferrari for example, did not.
A very good video firing up memories from the 1970/80s when I owned four or five Porches over a period of maybe 15 years. I never lost money and always made, say £1000, when sold. That changed dramatically in the early 2000s. My 2002 996Twin turbo lost £2000 a month. I was a vehicle leasing broker during these dramatic years so saw people suffer at first hand. Awful times that may return.
The band wagon of making a quick buck from recent years has seriously cause a dent for true car aficionados around the world. If one truly enjoys the ride, the market value has little to do with the pure joy of driving and ownership. Fantastic video, a reality check from the demand and supply game being mirrored to luxury watches as well.
I think people making a quick buck were doing so because car enthusiasts were paying whatever it took to get the vehicle into their garage. Hence, Porsche was actually selling cars at below market value! It's like the way TicketMaster shoves all their Taylor Swift tickets into their own secondary marketplaces (ie their own company); the advertised price is so far below the actual price because people effectively bid up prices. However, I'm not sure if Porsche sells to true car enthusiasts so much as true owner enthusiasts. The vast majority of enthusiasts drivers would be better served with something like the Toyota GR86, the Mazda Miata, or, if you want to scare yourself silly, a shifter-kart. Something like 3% of Porsche 911 ever see a trackday, Corvettes are under 1%. Curiously, BMW is like 5% which I did not expect. I can't help but feel that BMW's are family sedans for the upper middle class.
I bought a Spyder RS. I went to the dealer and told them I want one. And I got one. on MSRP. (This was my first Porsche) They wrote in the contract: I need to drive it at least 1000km (I drove 2500km already and I don't want to sell it at all! :) )
I’m not normally a fan of schadenfreude but I’ll smile at porsche suffering. I’ve bought lots of their cars in the past but when I’m told I can’t have another GT3 without having to play games and buy cars I don’t want to bump myself up a list… It was only a matter of time before market forces changed and they will be begging for the customers they previously treated with disdain.
So which other way do you suggest they prioritize customers for a limited number of cars? The fact you think it's personal or disdain just tells me you're a bit of a narcissist.
It's a nice thought and I feel your pain... but that's not gonna happen. :) Plenty of people with means are going to continue to fight to buy the special cars..... The rich people aren't going away.
Got my 2018 991.2 T at a little under MSRP, and paid MSRP for my 2023 Taycan 4S. They call me up or try to show me stuff when I stop in for service. I love looking at the nice GT3 and GT4, but I’ll be damned if I’m paying $50k-75k over MSRP for anything. I’m glad for them that they have a market for it, but $300k for a GT3 Touring? Lol, nah, I’ll get something actually exotic and unique (Superformance GT40 might be next on my list …), and keep using my lightly modified T to pass the old rich men in their GT3’s on the track, all. Day. Long.
Have to say I think this is the most interesting informative video you've done James. I've been a Porsche nut since being a teenager and am on my 4th. For many years I studied the Porsche Market pretty much on a daily basis but then just got bored of seeing these cars commanding stupid money none of these are really worth 3,4,500k are they. Let's be honest. And also what you say about dealers turning into arses was something you just didn't experience 10/15 years ago. You reap what you sew. Great video and very very interesting as to where the market is now.
Very interesting James, thank you. I guess a lot of folk who love driving in the UK know that you don't need the 'halo' cars to have true driving enjoyment. I recall a few decades back the classic car market had a recalibration and many speculators lost money.
I remember it well. 100.000 pound cars like E Types went down to 20.000 pounds. I remember lord brocket destroying 3 classic Ferraris and a very rare Maserati. Cut them up and buried then in he’s grounds. 4 million they were insured for. But then the desert storm war started and a resection began and the cars went down in value. Them cars are worth untold millions now.
Here in California it’s still, absolutely INSANE. The 2 Porsche dealers around me won’t let you spec anything but Macans, and have used 911 4s for 160k, and gts’ for 190k…. As I said, it’s mental.
dude..i was just looking for a used 911 4S..still at least $80K+..I wouldnt even consider Porsche over $60K..too many other amazing options above that..say that new body R8 V10 which is a Huracan sleeper..that's the only other rear-engine daily driver sports car besides maybe the i8 & theyre both a fraction of Porsche prices
@@CCP-pb5ss I8 is a poor driving highly depreciating poor car. R8 is over rated and good luck servicing one of those. I had a Huracan Evo and it got landed with a $6000 service after 2 years. All routine items. It was dull as dishwater to drive. How it loaded up around corners was dull and borderline dangerous there is that lack of feel
I remember back in 1974 I was looking at Jaguars at my local dealership. It was the last year for the XKE. They had several lined up in row. They couldn't sell them. 1974 was a major economic downturn. Inflation was over 11 percent. Those cars were so pretty all lined up in a row in different colors. I sure wanted one.
@@sesto194 It’s not about generations, but about variants, particularly on the 911. I also feel there is a new combination of the letters G, R, S and T thrown at 911s every time I come across a 911 video.
@@phil4086 there isnt though. Its been the exact same lineup of 911s since the 90s. Carrera, Targa, Turbo and GT cars. Some special editions thrown in, just like every sportscar manufacturer does. No new model makes another one obsolete, so its really never like "ah damn i just ordered my GT3, but now theres a Dakar coming! "
Very interesting information, JayEmm. I have a 997 Turbo which is a somewhat daily driver. Bought it in 2018 at a good price and lived through the ups of the market and now, the downs. I'll probably run it for a few more years - enjoying the heck out of it. I'm not a car flipper but you're shown how some folks are locked into a soft market and stand to lose a bundle of cash. Should be some relatively good bargains in 2024.
Don't ever sell your 997 turbo, or if your in the U.S. sell it to me. I had one for 4 years and had to sell it 3 or so years ago for family assistance and I miss that car every single day. You will regret it. In my opinion it's the absolute best "modern" Porsche.
@@kirkwilson5900 well - it is the last narrow body model. Prices will be higher - with an expected peak in 10-15 years. In general, I think if one owned such a car, just drive it - that's what they are meant to be for.
@@jeffcheng5058Sad story... Hopefully, your insurance covered it. Seems to be a good time to get a deal on a 997. Temperature today was 39°F - great drive with the top down and the heater on.
Great video! I owned a couple of good used 944s in the 90's, which I bought for very reasonable money, but then left the UK in 2003. Even though I will never own another Porsche, I've continued to keep an eye on UK prices and I've been shocked at how expensive they have become. The bubble had to burst at some stage and a lot of people are going to lose a lot of money.
Very good video James! In my opinion these Porsches have been overpriced for a long time already. Most of them are mass production cars with minor distictions. For me they were never worth these high prices and I could not understand, why people would spend these high amounts on them.
facts..overpriced for what they are..its all about people overpaying for the badge..why is a used 991 4S $80K+..granted they are the only ones who make rear-mid-engine daily driver sports cars..besides the Audi R8..but the i8 being half the price..makes the 911 look even more overpriced
FINALLY! Most people who really want one have already bought one. Therefore, these cars will become bargains compared to previous markets until the car market balances itself out!
Jay, Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini and the rest of the exotic cars have benefited greatly from the financialization/bubble/unlimited fiat currency printing. It's coming to an end now and it will be very interesting to see how they do in a world without "free" money and the wealth effect. I'll be looking to purchase one when reality hits.
The perfect storm of: higher production, much higher interest rates, and vast increases in retail prices. There will be some real bargains to come. Great analysis James! McLaren postcode 😂. The other Autotrader bloodbath is the M3 Touring; 121 for sale, and that figure is increasing rapidly. There was a new Rubystar Turbo S for sale the other day at about £162k, nearly £30k off.
I went to trade in my Macan...and buy a new 911...I used to own one but had sold it. The sales guy said it would take 2 years to order a 911S as it was too "basic" and since they were only allocated a few cars they did not want to order what I wanted as not enough margin...then tried to sell me a used one. I bought a 2024 M4 Competition model...for $50K less than the basic 911 S...pretty stoked but was really shocked at the Porsche dealership...
Good video! A friend of mine picked up a Panamera last week from a service and was taken round the back where there was a row of 911s.....apparently unsold. Like him I thought they were tough to get hold of. Interest rates have killed this market and the fact that Porsche will keep pumping out new cars to sell will only depress used prices more. The last few years of 911 specials reminds me of the Renault Clio Williams back in the day when much to the disgust of original owners, they brought out versions 2 and 3.
It's all about getting money out of people. Renault were just stopping money getting taken elsewhere by releasing the 2 and 3 at a time when VW dropped the ball.
I worked in the semiconductor industry at the time of the shortages. A fire wasn’t the real reason for the chip shortage. All of the auto manufactures thought sales would fall off the cliff and cancelled all of there orders, not realizing the time it takes to process these chips. About time they realized their mistake, chip manufacturing shifted their focus to the new demand. Servers and laptops supporting work-from-homers.
@@AlessandroCorazzaCA They are not getting away with anything at the moment - Porsche have 1,100 unregistered brand new cars in the UK and began a massive discounting scheme from 1st Nov !
It‘s the dealers who are mean and greedy, they do the mark up on new cars. Porsche dealers in Germany may sell factory new cars at list price only, maybe with a small discount. Some put them on the road for a few hundred kilometers and sell them as used, showing one owner and add a further margin. Just forget about those crooks.
FINALLY! You're right Jay, it's about time Porsche prices start coming back down to earth. I've been following the market in Canada for a few years and the same is happening here. I recently had to pass on an allocation for a 992 C2S. I'd been waiting for a long time but MSRPs had jumped too much and I couldn't justify the new prices, particularly as the market is getting quite soft.
Exactly , i was looking at getting a 992 just before lockdown, then things slipped and now i look at the new 992 prices, its just daft and I just don't want one now. Ill keep the 997.
All seems very obvious when you put it like that! You're absolutely right when you talk about the lack of goodwill these days. In 2021, my 14,000 mile 2018 S4 threw a thermostat and water pump 6 weeks after Audi had serviced it and a month outside warranty. Neither the dealer or Audi UK gave a f***.
I honestly think the WHOLE market is about to pop. I've been in it since '99, seen the mercurial rise of smart investments from Fords to Porsches and it just feels... slowing
@@SpecialJay Absolutely - the situation has hit from both ends; the cheap money supply is gone (cheap debt, money-printing) so there's no easy money remaining to continue inflating these ridiculous speculative asset bubbles. On top of that the debt and money printing have insurprisingly caused inflation in essential goods, meaning people have less non-debt-derived money to spend. Reasonable to assume that all these "investible" pseudo-asset bubbles blown over the past 10-20 years are going to collapse. About bloody time too..
This was forecast to be happening 6 months ago - but it always seems like these things take longer than expected. There's going to be blood on the floor and dealers going out of business before this is over.
You're absolutely right re the 992 turbo s. I bought a year old 992 c4s in 2020 before the prices went crazy. I was looking to change it last year and couldn't believe the quantity of turbo s on the market and the fact people had paid overs. As you said the turbo models never held their money. I think I might change the 992 for 991 GT3.
Well done! Starting to see some evidence of same in NA. Lots of pre-owned inventory, but still almost no new inventory at dealers. But in the US,(unlike Canada) dealers can markup at any level subject to market demand the price of a new 911. For some models that would’ve been 25 to $35,000 per vehicle USD, above MRSP. That mark up seems to be shrinking (on the very few examples of new 911’s at the dealer) which suggests there may be more new car inventory headed to dealers. Let’s hope so!
Dealerships in Canada still have their ways of marking up “new” cars. They just make it a “used” one and vola~. Disgusting but hey it’s a free market if someone is willing to pay a premium then good on them. Buying anything above listed price never sits well with me.
Interesting insight Jay. Thanks. I own a 07 997 Turbo Manual. I won't say I bought as an investment, but I am obviously hopeful of not losing too much £££ during my ownership. I tend to keep an eye on what some of the better Porsche indy's (Paragon, 911 Virgin, Harbour, Hexagon) get in stock, how they price them and how quickly stock moves. I haven't noticed any decrease in price, speed of sale of the 993, 996 and 997 models in the past year or so. So I'm not sure if or how the depreciation of the more exotic 991/992 will impact the older generations. Perhaps they will remain unharmed. There are after all solid reasons why the 992's are going down in price aside of the end of cheap credit, excess GT/Turbo S cars produced, the new .2 car recently unveiled, production rates returning to normal, slower sales as we enter winter.
I too currently own a 997 turbo manual. My thoughts exact. And my heart really doesn’t go out to those having to lower prices to STILL well over MSRP. I’m not too sure how this applies to older generations that are still under their original MSRP. Mine was 170k usd new.
I think you guys are going to be fine, there might be a correction but that car is having classic status, there are no more manual turbos since the 997 so those cars will never become cheap.
@@almoncashews plus it’s one of the lowest produced 911’s as far as I’m aware. 08-09 crash devastated sales for the 997’s. They’re only becoming more and more rare
Still think the special stuff will be difficult to get a hold of and carry premiums. However, the days of buying a regular Carrera S, driving it for 3000 miles and getting your money back (and maybe then some) are over for now.
Well if you have the money it no longer looks the same for now for stuff such as the GT3 or GT4RS. No longer cars where you make 50-100k as soon you try to sell them. Seeing dealers (even Porsche dealers) knocking £10k off GT3’s £20k off GT4RS and the fact they're sitting for months is pretty astonishing. Although probably a good thing the used market for GT Porsche's was just fucking ridiculous for the last few years full of speculators who deserve to have their cornflakes shit in by the market.
@@teabagtowers3823 Maybe it is different in the UK, but in Europe a 992 3RS is still 50-100k (€) overs easy. The GT4 RS has been 30-40k (€) over at most in Europe. This is also the worst time to sell, I'm guessing with falling interests rates as inflation decreases I'm sure that we will still see good overs on the 3RS next year, and they will probably never be at list.
@@3xc1t3r Maybe it is different in Europe or the US but it does look like here in the UK the market has shit the bed. You have to admit it is pretty extraordinary that Porsche dealers are selling GT4RS where they have slashed the price by £20,000. If a year ago the GT4RS was selling for £250-£280k I wouldn't even be surprised. I found a manual 992 GT3 Touring with a manual and with 1600 miles on the clock for £184k on auto trader. If you spec up a 992 GT3 Touring on Porsche configurator they're around that depending on how you option it. Give or take a bit..... Last year that GT3 Touring I found I wouldn't have even been surprised if it was listed for £250k. Yet now it's selling for basically not far off what Porsche asks for them new. For reference I have attached that Tourings advert. www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202308100648086 There are 70 992 GT3 Porsche's for sale on Autotrader in the UK there over 160 Turbo S for sale in the UK. Judging by the slashed prices and the time some of them have been sat on dealers forecourts. There is definitely a correction going on I mean seriously a £20,000 discount on a Cayman GT4RS from original listing price. I found a GT4RS with 2054 miles for £169,500. Something is going on in the market. www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202310042653473
With the economy uncertain, not buying a car right now makes sense for a few reasons. Firstly, cars are costly, and in uncertain times, it's crucial to save money and keep your finances stable. Using public transport or rideshares can save you money. Secondly, technology and car-sharing options offer convenient transport without the expenses of owning a car, like maintenance and insurance. Moreover, fewer cars mean lower emissions, contributing to a greener planet. Choosing eco-friendly options supports global efforts to fight climate change. Lastly, waiting lets you assess your finances when things stabilize. You can focus on saving, investing, or other essential needs like education or debts. Being patient and evaluating your needs can lead to a wise and financially responsible decision about getting a car.
My financial advisor advises buying cars when interest rates and prices are low. However, he also cautions against it right now due to the hidden costs of car ownership, like insurance and maintenance. He helps me plan for these expenses and manages my portfolio to ensure financial stability. It's all about making strategic decisions and having a well-rounded financial plan.
Your financial journey is truly inspiring, and I'm currently striving to achieve the goals you've reached. Could you please share some tips to help others learn and navigate their own paths to financial success? Your insights would be invaluable.
I believe everyone could benefit from having a personal financial advisor. They can assist you in reaching your customized financial objectives at any point, ensuring you remain profitable.
The economy might be uncertain but I'm pretty sure that anyone speculating a Porsche will not be considering public transport or rideshares to save money...
Slightly off topic but I went to my local Porsche dealer interested in a Taycan. I turned up in my X4 M Competition. I was honest with the guy about my budget and - for what they had in stock I was about 4k short. Had he offered me a test drive I might have found that 4k or met him somewhere in the middle. His advice? Keep the X4! I went to Audi who were happy to let me test drive an RS Etron GT (same car essentially). It was 12k over my budget. But I test drove it. And I wanted it. And I found the extra money to buy it. Basically the Porsche guy (who drove a mini electric) assumed that I couldn’t afford one of his cars and let me walk away. I will never return.
You’ve dodged a bullet. Depreciation on a Taycan is catastrophic Macmaster (TH-cam creator) has just had a WBAC valuation of £11k lower than last month, £11k in a month!!! That’s £311/day or 10p/sec. The arse is falling out of the used car market, if you can afford to hold on then do so as it’ll recover. Or perhaps it won’t and I’ll be stuck with my C63 until the drip has filled the bath, which would be a terrible suffrage as I love my fast merc.
I told my local Porsche dealer I was selling my Cayman. Their salesman was desperate to get me back in a Porsche so I said "I want a £20k hot hatch, good luck". Had a 30 minute test drive in a £70k Macan GTS, I'd say it was fun, but I wanted a hot hatch which is actually fun. We didn't even go through the budget/finance stuff beforehand. Makes me think it's mostly the dealer or, more specifically, the franchise group. On the other hand, I went into Merc a few years back to help my Dad buy a car. Both turned up in hoodies (not putting a shirt on to test drive a car...that's just odd) and the dealer literally said "are you sure you want to buy a Mercedes sir?" - a week later, he had a brand new Audi 🤣 The nearby BMW dealer, incidentally in the same group as my local Porsche dealer, just ignored him. I've booked 2 test drives for myself with that BMW dealer since - spent a total of 2 hours sat in their reception, 0 test drives...bought a Lexus and Porsche on those occasions instead. Other BMW dealers, I've had good experiences with though.
Great video Jay. I am really pleased that some reality is returning to the market and I am also very happy that the market is sticking it to the arrogant Porsche dealers. If they had been nicer to me instead of making me feel a Mr nobody then I would probably be driving a 911 instead of my current non Porsche.
I think this also speaks to a broader affordability issue, not just for the special stuff. I’m looking at upgrading cars next year and love the idea of a 992, but cannot get my head around the prices that the S and GTS are commanding as well. As you flagged at the start, Porsche have always had very strong residuals, but with supply chain issues largely resolved and these models being completely unlimited, 120 / 130k+ just feels a bit crazy. But maybe that is just the ways things are now - I know that a brand new M4 can be over 100k with options so maybe in that context it doesn’t sound as crazy, but it all feels a bit unsustainable especially as interest rates will really start to bite when people’s PCPs finish.
I could suggest you give the 911T some consideration is you are not married to the idea that it has to be an S or higher. Considering that all engines on the current 911s are all turbocharged anyways, you can get a T with a software reflash and be just as potent or better than an S, but with all the performance equipment.
I think, when you pick the right model, enjoy it for a while because you want to own and drive it, depreciation will not be your main problem. For example one of the last flat six Caymans. But you have to bare in mind that meanwhile you use a Porsche you will have pretty high maintenance costs which will presumably not be covered by the potential selling price.
Great Video and I agree 100%. The old rare cars will keep their value better I suspect. Production numbers are also so high, look at the 997.2 GT2RS for example, only 500 made and a legendary car. There are 5x as many 991.2 GT2RS, 30 for sale right now in Germany and priced at 400-600k. At the same time there are only 2 997.2 GT3RS for sale in Germany right now and they’re cheaper. It just doesn’t make sense.
But it is also demand for a car. You could have a car that is 1:1 build but if nobody wants it then its worthless. You have to look what old money is buying. For damn sure they aint buying aventadors.
@@buraksarikaya9798in Germany people don’t like to stand out as much as in let’s say Los Angeles. Porsche are better daily drivers and maintenance is cheaper than a Lambo or Ferrari
I was never really in "it" with a non-s, 981 Cayman with a lot of miles, but I'm definitely starting to think about a safari build on it now, and just having fun with it... It's still a beautiful, manual, Guards Red example.
Love these videos Jay, your insider knowledge is really refreshing and HONEST. Not going to get this info from speculators or the dealers...it highlights the traps people fall into when over exposed, thinking the market will always go up...supply and demand essentially...and huge interest rates to curb inflation. This is one of the examples of BOE raising interest rates to curb inflation. Over sticker prices are the definition of inflation. On this occasion the high interest rates set, make sense to reign in over spending especially if the supply will eventually catch up with demand...thanks again. If you want to review a Megane 4Rs Trophy let me know 😊
Thank you for the candid, knowledgeable and humorous views. I feel you are always able to capture the essentials in a very entertaining way, and I feel like my small universe expands as I watch your reviews. I personally just bought a used Cayman S… loving it, but didn’t empty the bank account for it! 😅 Gracias Jay!
Say what you want, the GT4 RS is an absolute, insanely good sounding dream car. Just for the joy of driving and hearing it for many years, it would be worth the cash.
Great video and thanks for letting us know about autotrader tracker. On your last point about PCPs. Luckily the customer will be protected on PCP and it will be the finance company’s loss. But this will see let’s more 911s being handed back and then sent to auction by the finance company driving down prices even more. Hopefully lots of bargains at auction for us petrolheads.
Here in Germany, most of the cars are still overpriced. For the last 30 years I almost always bought 2-3yo luxury cars, mostly 7-Series, S-Class, Range Rovers, and typically they lost about 60% of the original price, so I was able to buy almost "new" cars for less than half the price. Yesterday I went to my Mercedes Dealer and they wanted 129k for an S580, that was new 155k in 2021..... Prices are just too high at the moment
@@lucky889s9 in the UK, if you buy used from a dealer, with full history and approved, then you have the option to pay monthly, to extended the warranty. There are rules to this though, like no modifications and you have to keep the car servicing with the manufacturer.
@@lucky889s9 Im in my late 60s and had about 40 cars (including those I bought for my wife, family) and I never had really any big issues besides a Volvo 850 which I bought new and it was broken 8 times during warranty. Ones an Air-Suspension compressor changed on my 08 Jag XJ. But all the other problems I had with cars were fixable for less than 500 Euro... And even if a car has a major issue its usually still much cheaper to fix it and get another 50k miles out of it.
I drive a 911 but I never bought a car as an investment, only for pleasure and to keep it for as long as possible or at least exchange it at the main Porsche dealership to get a price reduction on the newer 911 model. My advice to anyone looking for a 911 for pleasure, instead of buying the more expensive GTS, Turbo S or even GT3 models, look for a more humble simple Carrera and pick all the options you desire in it. If you think the price isn't that expensive for you, then do the same with the Carrera S, and so on. You can skip the simple 4 and go from S to 4S but personally I'd switch directly from S to GTS if you aren't looking for a much more expensive Turbo or GT3. Just know that generally a version with a very good amount of options picked tends to be the base price for the next version, as in a fully decked out Carrera will be around the base price of the Carrera S, and so on. Nobody's going to be making fun of you for not having the most expensive 911 because there aren't a lot of people who can afford the base one anyway. Also don't forget that while you might afford to BUY a Turbo or GT3, don't forget that the yearly expenses on it are going to be much more expensive than any Carrera simply because the engine is that much more powerful. To get you an idea, it's 931,66€ for the annual road taxe on a Carrera where I live, it's 2086,13€ for both Turbo's and 2374,94€ for both GT3's. That difference in yearly expense gives you enough "saving" to allow you to modify a part of your car every year to a couple years.
Brilliant analysis. There's something to be said about not spending right up to the margins of your budget on any big purchase. The scenario you've outlined here for the Porsche market were the precise circumstances of the 2008 housing market crash. My dream was a Cayman GT3 but I settled for a used, low mileage base Cayman. I was able to pay cash and I enjoy more had I borrowed on the GT3.
Hi Jay, very nice video and valid topic, a lot of those GT4 and GT3 were purely bought for flipping and currently someone is stuck with them either dealer or flipper, however, there is other side of Porsche pricing now - the “non desired models”. I am in market for Panamera Sport Turismo GTS or Turbo and it’s empty or priced 15%+ compared to what they were in August, same with my current used Macan S, I still can sell it for same price a year and 20 000 km later here in France. I hope winter brings some more joy to prices on Panamera’s and the pricing trend comes from the coupe’s also to the rest of lineup, however one thing I have noticed- the stocks of Taycans are massive, literally has chance to become the most depreciating Porsche model…
The challenge w/the Panamera now (from about 6 weeks ago) is that they are no longer available for order so as to prepare for the updated model - which will be announced at the LA Show and will be orderable in May 2024. The engine choices will be the same as in the new Cayenne, so more hybrids. The "new" GTS is a question mark and the Turbo will be hybrid.
never understood the point of Macan other than to be a more tame Porsche for soccer moms to drive..definitely get that Panamera next..in US the GTS & Turbos are @ great prices..but 911 still ridiculous overpriced for what it is..but ive yet to drive a rear-mid-engine to know what all the fuss is about..its on my list but..its double the price of the i8 & i dont see how
@@CCP-pb5ss well it’s soccer mom car in US, in Europe you are limited w space for SUV, try to go with that GLS, Cayenne, X7 or god forbid GMC somewhere in south of France or Italy. It’s a pain to say the least. So ppl opt out for mid size SUV, X3, Macan, GLC etc.
I've had a Panamera on order for 10 months and the approaching production switch for the new model is making me nervous. Wanted a GTS but was told back then that they couldn't be ordered and the GTS would be a long time coming with the new version due to the way Porsche release the model variants.
The number of new and pre-registered Taycans for sale in some Porsche Dealers at the moment is a real eye opener. Expect big discounts for this model also.
The perfect storm cometh! As others have said, I think this is trend for the whole car market but maybe not as severe as Porsche. Going to be interesting to watch this play out and what happens in say 5-10 years from now.
Great video. I have always thought the number of TurboS 992s was ridiculous. I was tempted last year. I would have lost £50k. I now wondering when the prices will bottom out???
Wow.. just wow.. You definitely hit the nail on the head with this video! In 2021 I actually got a BMW 2 series 240i "used" with all extras and 758miles on the clock for 12k £ less than a new one. It's the same car I am still driving today. Only for year later to see the prices sky-rocket and wondered WTH?! How come my car is now more expensive than when I got it?! Respect for the research and the video! PS: A Porsche over 100k £ is just insane.. it's a mechanical car - not made of gold. (I still wish I would have bought that 944 in 2013 now though :)) )
So true. I had the best of both worlds- began looking at a new Macan GTS for my wife the very end of 2020 (dealers were dropping prices like mad) and waited until until Jan 2021 to sign (got even more off and better financing). Going forward, my rule of thumb has become to wait until Jan or Feb (winter) to by a sports car and push the deal to the very end of the month....I got $5K off my 911 GTS!
The whole market is coming back to reality. But it’s great news about Porsche prices returning to reality. It’s time for those cars to get back on the road and out of the hands of flippers.
Another great video. I suspect Porsche won’t be happy with you though for showing how they have had to reduce their in stock prices. Pricing is still too expensive but looking forward to the day when we see a sub £100k 992 GT3!
@@Dave-vy2de Never! Once they introduce a new GT model the limited number of older ones hold their money and even go up over time. Look at the crazy prices for the 997.2 GT3 RS 3.8 and 4.0!
@@Dave-vy2de True, it might take some time but not sure it’s unobtainable. 991 GT3s are sub £100k now, granted they are 8/9 years old. I think the days of over inflated prices for any Porsche unless it’s a very limited car are over.
Great video. Last year I was fortunate to buy my first Porsche, Cayman GTS and it was far and away the most unreliable car I've ever owned. It wasn't the car that ruined the experience though, it was the dealers. Over the 13 months I owed it I took it to 3 dealers for warranty work and it came back with something new broken every time. I cut my losses and got rid of the car two months ago and couldn't be happier. The worst part was the smugness, the culture of the dealers around me is that I should be thankful I even have a porsche.
They need to be brought back down to earth imo. At the moment, and in recent times, they can't lose. If this recession does happen, 'officially', then that will be the catalyst. The speculators would bail like rats off a sinking ship, and the market would tank. That would wipe the smugness.
Ive got a similar frustration over here in the US. The LFA is a dream car of mine. And ive noticed a pattern with the car culture coming on to late 2000s super cars getting hyped to the moon all of a sudden. The SLS black series, murcielago sv, manual merci, and the lfa. I remember back in the day when the lfa came out so many people crapped on it and thought it was a lame slow car. Ive been a fan of that thing since its release. Now everyone decided its gods gift to driving haha. Im glad people are realizing its a great car but its gone to a point where collectors are just buying these cars and gate keeping them at 800k plus. Thats crazy. I depise flippers and people who just buy cars just to turn a quick profit. I guess if youre a rich guy, making money through every avenue is the smart thing to do but i think its also lame when they gate keep these cars. Enjoy the cars damn it
Very interesting topic you covered here. After these fat years we’ve had you now see a returning to a „normal“. The effects you explained in a very interesting and informative manner seem not to have happened yet in Switzerland. I’m wondering if and when this will be the case here. Keep up the great work. Cheers from Switzerland
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Question: How much is the post-Brexit here a factor of the Porsche prices in the RHD UK ecosystem?
@@theatrenest9982 in this case only an indirect cause in terms of the damage to our economy
@@JayEmmOnCarshaha :((( people over the age of 60 shouldn't be allowed to vote for such things.
I was 17 when the Brexit vote happened so I had no vote, and now the country I was born in and planned to live my life in, is in economic ruins and I'm planning to move to Europe.
U crazy
True, I worked for a Porsche dealer in '05 and u could get a discount (though they didnt want to do that), but if u waved a check infront of them, u could get extras instead of a discount say a power upgrade flush, fancier wheels, stuff like that.
PS: they used to make 5-6K of profit on the fancier wheels alone.
I think a more accurate title would be cheap credit has now finished.
Blowing £100k of credit on a new sports car isn't the top of everyone's agenda since their mortgage repayments have doubled.
Or the opportunity cost of investing same funds has commensurately gone up
Doubled is slightly overstating it - but not by much - my mortgage rolling over this year have meant I now have nearly $2000 less per month for discretionary spending - enough that it certainly rules out buying any more cars for a while that's for sure! He does mention the cost of finance in the video - but yeah, it'll be impacting all the luxury brands.
@@trogdortheburninator8149 Can you elaborate a little.
@@michaelyounes29 im int he states, last car I financed was 93k with 35k down. Rate was 2.9. Now the rate would be 8 or so. So now I have to buy cash tie up an additional 70k that I could be using in the market to make at least 8 percent. Before the loans were running at or below inflation essentially borrowing was smarter than paying cash
@@michaelyounes29 some people have mortgages. Those that don’t can either buy a Porsche or boat or whatever, or invest in shares / property or whatever. Take government bonds (risk free assets) return has gone up so much over last year or two. Same for more “risky” assets. Point being it’s that much harder to justify toys for all. Also means the price of assets has downward pressure is property, floating rate bonds, infra assets as the “risk free yield” goes up which doesn’t help sentiment
Interesting times ahead! I just hope the outcome is that more of the GT cars find their way into the hands of real driving enthusiasts rather than the speculators.
Well said Antony 👍
God I hope so 🤞
Absolutely, couldn’t agree more
Exactly, I'm a fortunate person that owns a 991 speedster, Dakar, Sport Classic, GT3RS Tribute and a Trubo S cab and I drive everyone of them. They deserve to be driven and deserve the respect to be used what they were made for. I don't worry about value. I own them to enjoy. And even if the market goes down. I'm a collector and long term holder.
@@gosmarte669that's a wild collection for sure!
I have always said the best way to get value out of a car is to buy one you really like and then drive it as much and for as long as possible. Enjoyment, extensive use and not caring about resale value is the way to go.
100% agreed otherwise what’s the point? Just buy a sensible car if u care too much about value right?
I agree with 1000%. True love on the car should be the driving force to own the car. Resale value should be the extra bonus but should not be the main focus of owning a car.
Absolutely. Buy what you like, drive it, enjoy it, use it up.
Agreed. Cars are not good for investment in general. I have a 2005 BMW 330Ci Conv. ZHP and a 2016 MB GLE 450 AMG Coupe. No reason to buy another vehicle for quite a while. Both are a pleasure to drive.
@@f1ibraaa My car is now 6 years of age and feels new. Plan to keep it up to 10 years or more.
This is a great reminder to buy the car because YOU want to own and drive it! Don't buy it because of it's perceived future value to other people! The market is slowly returning to some semblance of harmony and equilibrium. This is equally true in the UK market as it is in the US right now.
All across the board, not limited to UK & US. Couldn't agree more. Saw it in watches as well, troves of "investors" (who don't know a thing of horology) flocking to the hobby when it started showing its potential the past 6-7 years (but especially during covid of course), only buying references that were "sure" to appreciate in some ridiculous way, never buying watches because they actually liked them... so the whole claim that they were "watch guys" never stood up, as it they all chased the same things for the same reasons, no individuality whatsoever, just ticking off entries on a checklist. Of course we see it often with cars too, as discussed here... and many other luxury segments. People end up being clones of one another, collections so homogenized... full of desirable stuff, but also devoid of meaning when hoarded en masse like that "just because". Sorry for the rant!
cars in US market is still way above what's shown here.
But the entire reason most Porsche owners buy (and pay a premium) for cars is because it is an aspiration ... and all the perception of success that comes with it.
I'd wager a typical 992 or 993 owner would even refuse to set foot in a 996 even as a passenger if you were to offer him a lift ...
Absolutely. My modus operandi for anything I buy.
In regards to something more close to a base 911, do they cars ever sell for under MSRP?
Having been through this recently with 2 Porsches, let’s not forget the air of arrogance shown by the dealerships “oh no sir, you can’t just buy the car, we allow you to buy one” this never sat well with me. Beautiful things for sure, but the dealerships are just crooks, wait until you get your first service bill 😮
In the UK Porsche servicing is menu based so you know in advance what you will be paying. Compared with many of its direct competitors servicing is reasonable.
@@hpman911 yup £2600 for a service, wether I knew it before hand or not is a complete ripoff. Just my opinion of course.
£2600 for a first service? On what, a 918?
Yes nothing IS a 911, but……….
@@thomassanio8745 ??
Same with the premium watch market. Authorized retailers had a waiting list (they say). The gray market was the only way to get a premium watch and off course at a premium price. It became a flippers dream.
Yep. I bought a Rolex Submariner about 10 years ago, wore it daily for about 5 years, then sold it for a nice profit. I'm not a flipper but I did benefit from their game. I actually traded my first Rolex for a profit but I upgraded to a nicer Submariner and used the profit to pay the difference.
Never buy when there is a crazy demand for them, like anything really.
The only AD with a waiting list is Rolex and the likes of omega decided they would pump up prices for their 90th version of a speedmaster etc. I loved watches until about three years ago when I lost all interest, they’re nice but the engineering isn’t actually there to warrant the daft increase or exclusivity the manufacturers are pushing. I’m pretty sure omega came out with a titanium seamaster for some daft which it’s never ever going to be worth unless your a fool with to much money and an ego to feed.
I found out last week that my local Porsche dealer has 70 new cars unsold, in stock on their forecourt. Glad the bubble has finally burst.
Which one
I bet most of them are Taycans
@@oneeleven9832 What because people have realised it's a rebadged Audi Q5.
@@teabagtowers3823 you're thinking of the Macan
@@xopelvi2796 It'll be Macans and Taycans people are probably realising that the depreciation on electric cars are horrendous. Unless you get electric car as a company car if you buy a Taycan outright in the first year you'll probably lose £30-£40k.
I have been wanting a 992 for the past few years but I couldn’t find myself paying the overpriced listing. I am a car enthusiast. If we, as consumers, decide not to buy the Porsche at these ridiculous prices, then prices will have to come down as they are now. Hope that trend continues.
It's all relative, so all car prices are coming down. Look at the EV market for example for new and old cars. This video is misleading just focusing on Porsche. No other manufacturer makes a car so all round desirable as the GT cars for petrol heads which is why they routinely go over rrp. Nobody is paying overs for Ferrari and Lamborghini because they don't offer the same broad appeal and image. As soon as the market slows by general market and global forces the overs prices will drop but it's a fallacy to says it's just the Porsche market and dreamland to think Porsche will lower prices when a well specced M3 is now around £100k 😂
If people stop paying for these expensive cars the company will just discontinue them and accelerate towards electric vehicles
Enough people will pay, regardless of price. That's today's "gotta have it" buyer, aka wealthy males.
Not to mention the ludicrous dealer markups. I saw some as high as $50K once Covid hit. Get bent Porsche!
@@Apexbossman Nobody wants that. this is Porshe not toyota. begone.
This high over-priced story isn't limited to Porsche. Most pick-up trucks in the USA had $100,000 price tags.
His video is about Porsche because Porsches are the ones that held the value the most and remained the most difficult cars to get long after covid was over
It’s not just Porsche - it’s the entire sports car market.
Not just the sports car market... Gonna be all markets. This is just a precursor. People are liquidating whatever they can. Then it's stocks, then homes. Feels like it's finally happening.
I've been saying for ages that the car market is like the 2008 housing market. They're all on finance and when people get out of their pcp, the manufacturers will be sat on scores of used cars that fall well below their predicted future value.
Looking for a Classic Mustang fastback,i am sure prices will come down a lot!
@@Tential1there's still to much demand for houses for them to drop the way cars can. Cars are going back to 50% every three years depreciation.
Is nothing like houses or the stock market. Go look at your pensions as they have done crap for the last several years.
Porsche got greedy and increased prices while interest rates shot up. The result is you have GTS coupe that are at list well over £150000 !! Crazy.
A lot of people who bought a GT3, bought it to speculate… thinking that they’d use it for a year and then they would resell it without loosing any money, or even maybe making some profit… thats why there are soooo many used GT3 992 on sale… the selling price is overpriced obviously, that’s why they are not getting sold. Buyers are not stupid anymore… at least not the majority. PS: Very good video!! I love your videos!!
Most of the gt3 buyers more speculated thats the last version naturally aspirated. Its not yet clear if they are right.
@@stephankl632 It’s not. The head of Porsche’s GT division said he will continue to make NA GT cars for as long as he’s apart of the company. Not sure why that rumor started spreading, no real facts that I’ve seen to support it.
Buyers are still stupid, but now they have to do it with their own money. I'm pretty sure they haven't wised up, and would happily spend ludicrous amounts still if they had access to it.
Hopefully it will trickle down to the more pedestrian models as well. Right before the market went insane I was finally in a position to afford a used Boxster S. Then they doubled in price overnight! Hopefully they'll come back to Earth soon...
Had the same on a E63s
Due to the rise in car thefts and the ridiculous increase of insurance prices on cars, a lot more people will be selling their cars so I have a feeling car prices should start dropping at a reasonably fast rate.
They'll never be priced anywhere near as low as they were.
New sports cars are getting bigger, heavier, softer and more expensive.
Proper little sports cars like that will hold their value forever now I think :((
This is happening to basic cars as well. Speclation from the lockdown took the car market.
Be great to see sports cars on their lots again. Currently in a position where I can buy my dream 911 but not at the inflated prices and not going to just take whatever they have available. This one will be, eventually, a keeper.
I didn't buy my Porsche to make money. I bought it to enjoy it.
And thats also what Porsche wants. These cars are meant to be driven, more so than any other supercar manufacturer. Porsche didnt spend all that R&D to create a brilliant car like the new GT3 RS just for it to sit in a garage.
It helps if you can stay solvent whilst owning it though.
@@asb1619 I don’t think people will lose their shirts if they buy a CPO Porsche they like
Same here I’ve had 5 Porsches and my 992 S was for enjoyment.
Exactly……
So many of the new Turbo S's available on the Porsche website are ridiculously over optioned. You can only think that the OPC's have ordered these for their stock, massively specced up to try and make as much margin as possible, which would probably have been fine at the peak of the market when cars were short, but now no one is buying them they are going to really struggle to shift them without significant discount.
Ford produced $100k over optioned F-150's and Toyota shifted production to higher end loaded Lexus'.
Agree 100pc with your observations. The cars arriving into stock are over optioned and with build slots freely available even the 8pc discounts don't make them appealing
Irrelevant, but that build in the background is the craziest and probably coolest PC I've ever seen.
came here looking for this comment. what the hell is going on there
that looks to me to be a cool prop
Looks like a water cooled dual 4090's setup
@@fliptomylou8880 Hmm... I dunno where you're getting dual 4090s from. I do see a single waterblocked GPU and CPU. Maybe you're looking at the 2x 360(?)mm radiators.
This video came out at the right time for me. I’m in the US looking to purchase my first Porsche, a base 911, and thought the dealer markups was something normal. I’ll be sure to not fall into this trap. Thank you!
California is a bad place to buy a Porsche sports car especially as a first time owner. Haven't looked in a while but anything outside a base Macan, Taycan, or Cayenne will still have some ADM
@@joe718gt4 yeahhh I had a dealer offer me an allocation for a base carrera but wanted 5k ADM. Didn’t that it was that bad in the grand scheme of things. Decided to hold out for a .2 allocation.
Just got a T allocation in Texas at MSRP and it seemed like there were a lot available. Definitely shop around.
Just wait, save your money, buy something fun and cheap to play around with and just wait for a bit, the market is finally starting to go back to normal but it’s going to take a long time for it to get back to the point where markups aren’t the norm.
Yes I'm also looking and so far all the top cars are still over msrp even on used I'm in the market to own one and drive the dang thing not to make money or call it a investment I want a 911 gt3 so anyone who wants to sell at or under msrp I'm interested
I was an existing Porsche customer this time last year wanted to buy a new car all I heard was 2 year wait if you’re lucky and we can’t sell you anything and btw apr is now 14% so unfortunately left the brand, they just weren’t interested so now all the people they dismissed they now need…good luck
If it doesn't have to be the latest and greatest, and the dealer shenanigans aside, have you tried looking for your ideal car in the used market? I know the used market for Porsches hasn't simmered down entirely, but considering this is on the verge, why not give it another go? Just for searching, at least? I'm sure there's something out there...
Your fragile ego got hurt by a car dealer. So sad :(
Same here. Was willing to purchase a gt3, was willing to wait also but was laughed out of every dealership. After 6 months of watching used examples going up I completely gave up. It’s been almost 2 years now I won’t buy from Porsche dealer but once the second hand market crashes I’ll pick one up then. Great plan Porsche. Way to lose a boatload of new customers just to keep a bunch of previous customers rich. Let’s see what happens now.
@@zooski1516 was annoying when they go on about how little stock they had and used prices are crazy then offer me £15k less for a trade in on exact same Car and spec on forecourt! Even though just had full service with them and new tyres! Apparently Carmine Red isn’t a popular colour lol. Was a Macan GTS lol
time to get a lotus emira now
Great video, the same thing is happening in the property market too, the amount of properties which have huge discounts around London ( some up to 50%) cheap money is no longer a thing and as people realise interest rates will be higher for longer they are rushing to get out.
I live in Detroit and have worked in over 50 car plants and I can tell you you are spot on. You absolutely nailed it. $75000 US for an average Bronco. And you have to wait 6 months to get it. Crazy!! What comes next is the bigger question.
Yea but lease is only 3.99%, cheap
What happens next is a slow and steady decile over the next decade where 911s depreciate more and more, especially as EV sports cars come out and create s sports car revolution. Anyone that buys a 911 today will lose way more money than even a regular car.
Yes, and they want 7% interest on the loan. Crazy!!
What comes next is high unemployed and wage decompression.
Best cartuber vid I've seen. Awesome amount of facts and zero clickbait. Looks like the Porsche crowd are learning the hard lesson the watch business has experienced over the last year. The heavy hitters are losing huge amounts and Rolex are getting back to list price on every model.
Smartwatches are doing their bit to kill that market too.
@@strangerdanger8462I don’t think smartwatches are doing anything like the kind of damage the Quartz Crisis did to the mechanical watch market.
High end audio and guitars are dropping too. No more lifestyle inflation at negative real rates :***(
Any recommendations for watch youtubers discussing the watch market?
@@janon128 Paul Thorpe has a good channel with loads of vids on watch prices. There's a lot of Rolex content, especially about the 'for display only' debacle 😏
I’m in my late 60s….retired Navy Officer and retired Federal LEO. The year I turned 50, coincided with making O6 in the Navy….and I gifted myself a pristine very low mileage 944S2 Cabriolet. I drive her only in good weather….keep up with her service…..and last summer I tripped her clock @ 60k miles. I love the car, it gets positive comments and questions everywhere I go (with one gent recently asking me “is that the new Boxer?). Anyway, I’ve always wanted a 911….and recently, I’ve half-heartedly been looking for one. But……maybe not? I’m too “senior” to consider paying “stupid money”! Anyway…brilliant insight in this video, sir….Bravo-Zulu, well done.
That spiral you describe at around 15:00 reminded me of the situation that led to 2008s economic crisis. A bit like a micro-version of that, really. Either way, like many others here, I can only hope that the "buying a car as an investment"-phenomenon will decrease again to a decent level (i.e., only for exclusive old classic cars). That way, these special Porsches can get used as Porsche intended.
Yeah the upside down realestate side with folks panicing and prices falling well below the amount financed ....becoming upside down is an awful feeling especially for anything non classic that depreciates with age as the new and improved version of the model keeps coming forth and the car in question becomes more and more "long on tooth"
this phenomenon will never go away. The sellers depicted here are losers. They are either too impatient or do not have the money to be patient. They should wait 10 years,
We are living in times where the young people are the first generation EVER to actually earn less than their parents all the while everything is getting massively more expensive.
Cars are just one tiny aspect of it. The prices are never coming down. That being said there are still quite a lot of cars that are losing value massively and are affordable. Look at any maseratis or jags. If you want a 10k car that has the repair bill of a 150k car you can still do it.
How did Porsche really intend their modern more affordable cars to be used though? In Germany there are now car-free towns, a backlash against exhaust noise which is creating lower speed limits as the assumption is they're speeding and on the increase. My Porsche would spend most of its life on the driveway or work's car park and only ever used to around 30% on UK roads of its capability unless it's tracked which can get more expensive than top level Karting.
@@erwinlommer197but many influencers, onlyfans etc are making quick easy money
Yep. It’s why I bought an MX-5 ND2. In this market it’s the only thing that makes sense. And I don’t feel like I’ve compromised at all as it’s so much fun to drive.
I bought my 991.2 GTS. After your surprising positive review. I bought it before things went crazy and I don’t really care if the value is going down
Jay, you are correct about being able to walk into a dealer and purchase a GT2/3.
I did so back in 2005 and the salesman was shocked I was even asking for one. He literally started asking me about tracking it and other such fanatics. He took me for a test drive in a Carrera 4S. He made His point.
Now the story is flipped of course. $150,000 extra for a GT3, ouch 🤕! 😢
I have a 991.1 GT3 and modified and 63,500 miles (four tours of Spain), no finance, but car insurance in London quintupled, so now have the expense of secure parking. Many people are being scared off by huge increase in insurance premiums (mine £2k to £11k)
Wow. I left the UK 20 years ago and had no idea about the increase in insurance premiums. Shocking.
It just seemed weird that at the point where I was old enough and finally making enough money to get into the top tier cars that they boosted into stratospheric prices. I refused to follow the prices up, figuring that everything will eventually return to sane levels.
That's part of the story.... a large portion of the population accumulated a lot of wealth at the same time and we all wanted the same toys.
@@DeuceDeuceBravo Eh, I don't think so. I think everyone got bored at the exact same moment and had a yolo moment. For covid I bought a boat, went fishing every day. Hell I didn't care anything about GT3's until I saw LZ tearing around in one.
@@CommonArea-y5i Agreed on COVID boredom. Hence the overlanding/camping popularity. But the stats on wealth generation over the last 10 years are crazy.
@@DeuceDeuceBravo I mean production went crazy too in the last decade. But like the guy said, production stopped, and anything that you can buy, play with, and then make money on is going to bring out the loans and the cash like wild. The "outdoorsy" stuff like van travel, mtb-ing, and def boats went wild because it was outside stuff in a locked inside pandemic. A second tier I will offer is that on prices. So many people decided that they weren't coming off of service or product unless it was worth their renewed sense of self and time. I was running a business, did the same thing. If you want a piece of my time that kept me from fishing or traveling it was going to have to be well worth it. No more racing the rats, everyone looked up and realized they liked their time more than what they were making, so.....prices.
@@CommonArea-y5i Yeah but also a lot of new money guys were born during that period and they don't understand the value of money or anything, these brands knew that whether car brands or luxury fashion brands and they slapped the prices up significantly so everyone that had to grind and learn the value of money over time were ultimately punished because although we know x car shouldn't be more than 130k, this 18yr that just hit the jackpot on some crypto is willing to pay 230k just to say he paid next to quarter million on a car😂
What a nice thing to see the market slowly being returned to the collector / buyer. Was long overdue. I am hugely into watches as well, and the same thing has been happening there.
collectors are just as bad
I also think life in general became an awful lot more expensive in the past 2-3 years because of the crazy inflation, which does not really motivate anyone to spend money, especially brand new car/barely used car big money.
same with whiskey, due to the china. no more money outside china to spend.
Great video Jay :) My favourite game as a small town car salesman is to watch high end dealers inventory continue to be discounted by $10K - $150K very week on “so called, rare or investment cars” that they bought in peek market when wholesale prices didn’t exist because everyone was paying over. Thank goodness I buy Hondas’s and Toyota’s to resell. In southern Ontario, Canada dealers have been dropping prices like crazy. With used car interest rates now around 9% you better have cash for that Porsche or G Wagen. The days of cheap finance money are gone and only the truly wealthy are in the market now looking to capitalize on the downward trend. Don’t be fooled by BAT and others sites showing inflated prices. I’ve seen people manipulate markets at auctions for decades. It’s the same group of people who buy and comment everyday. They’re protecting there assets because they have a garage full of them. Buy what you love and drive the hell out of it or shine it up and keep it mint. Less then 1% of cars increase in value over time.
dude ironically Honda & Toyota overpriced for what they are too..& this is coming from someone mixed w/ Japanese & only driven Lexus since the start..now theyre kinda boring & made for soccer moms & tho' the Germans & Italians can't get the reliability..theyre the most exciting & dynamic to drive..tho' if I could get that new body Honda/Acura NSX..but it needs carbon fiber monocoque safety..not that lame aluminum space-frame..if it had that..but for the lack of safety..gotta go i8 or 911 for the monocoque/unibody chassis
Lucky to find a Toyota at the lot. Mark up is so high you might get better deal buying a Lexus
@@henrylam92
So true. Orr Cadillac if you dare!😛😋😜
@@henrylam92 Depends on what you're buying, there's a reason they're marked up. When I wanted to replace the runabout Lexus, my only option with real leather and an infotainment system that wasn't braindead like current Lexus was an Avalon. You now need to buy a Super Luxury trim on Lexus just to get what you used to get with Base and suffer with the not-quite-touchpad nonsense.
Would love to see and update on this topic 1 year later…
Luxury watches as well. Interest rates have caused a slow down and people are reconsidering their choices. Love these deep dives into what's happening!
People dont tend to finance watches
@@Jay-xr3sbpeople would take a debt to buy stocks. But here we are 2023 with people losing morgages to crypto.
I meant that luxury watch prices were dropping. Sorry I was not more clear. Thanks.
There are people who buy watches with a loan?
@@GT-pl1wx Anything is possible!
I'll keep my 19 year old Mondeo... gentle depreciation curve now😂
Your ahead of me. My focus is only 16.
They'll soon start appreciating as a modern classic!! :)
I'm also driving an 18 year old Mondeo that I bought 17 years ago!
Right on! Keep the Porsche. My £750 19 year old MGZR is solid as a rock. Haha!
@@Shand1982Mondeos will never be a famous classic.
Excellent video Jay.
To further make the point, as of yesterday (14th Nov 2023) the Porsche UK website was listing 226 NEW, unregistered 911s. Of these 45% were Turbos or Turbo S models. I’ve never seen new 911s available from stock never mind more than 200. Of course this in part will be due to Porsche clearing their parts inventory ready for the 992.2 build program.
Love the fact that your auto trader postcode was the McLaren factory
😂😂😂
Excellent recap and timeline. Seriously… spot on!
I’m completely ok with where we’re headed. Sold my 997.2 C4S past peak but broke even for 6 years of ownership and 45k miles put on it. To drive it for “free” during that time feels like a luxury.
Keeping my 991.2 T basically forever and would gladly add a GT3T if prices felt like they were tethered to planet earth.
nah....chronological innacuraices abound. no more goodwill in 2010 becauwe of deieselgate in 2015. 911r's at £1m....edge cases easily disproved with google.
I’m not sure all of his details are true. 911R worth £1mm? When did this ever happen? I don’t recall a US 911 R ever selling for over $500k. Just one example of facts being exaggerated to fit a narrative l
@@pmr01I just posted a response then read yours. Yeah, so much wrong with this video. Mostly made up bs
I can confirm that 911R’s were listed for £1,000,000+. Romans intentional had one for example. If you were around the car scene in 2015/6/7 you would have seen this.
@@liamgell Been around a wee bitty longer than 15 / 16. That was a clickbait article that did him no favours. ALL cars have lost a whack in the last few months…no need to sensationalise. But hey, you just suck that up mate and believe that there was a £1m 911r unicorn out there.
Fascinating analysis with lots of real-time data to back it up, thanks!
One additional observation is that smaller specialist finance companies that advanced money on the basis of high residual balloons are likely to come under a lot of stress if cars are returned at the end of their finance term as many owners won't want to re-finance at today's interest rates and underlying market valuations.
One point you made personally struck home - I bought an end of line-up 2015 Boxter 981GTS as a daily driver in around 2019 partly on the basis that Porsche declared it would be the last naturally aspirated model that wouldn't be replicated in the 718 range and hence might become a future modern classic ....except that didn't turn out to be true. In my personal case, I'm pleased that I didn't have to finance the purchase and am happy to affordably enjoy it every day. Many others might become in the 'negative equity' trap you outlined.
Yes I think the entire sports/ supercar bubble has burst at the same time the interest rates went up. Good for genuine car buyers bad for flippers this will hopefully change the allocation game or at least make sure the right people get the cars. I would say if you have a car like this enjoy it let the tough times pass.
To a point. However, Porsche is unique because they are so much cheaper. Those who want Ferraris etc. will still be able to pay higher prices for them. The Porsche market hits the mid market a lot more with people who finance, only own one or two sports cars etc. Ferrari for example still sell the same cars and they did the smart thing, because they never got on this insane bandwagon of ADM. Porsche USA has spent the last five years shafting all their loyal long time clients, Ferrari for example, did not.
A very good video firing up memories from the 1970/80s when I owned four or five Porches over a period of maybe 15 years. I never lost money and always made, say £1000, when sold. That changed dramatically in the early 2000s. My 2002 996Twin turbo lost £2000 a month. I was a vehicle leasing broker during these dramatic years so saw people suffer at first hand. Awful times that may return.
The band wagon of making a quick buck from recent years has seriously cause a dent for true car aficionados around the world. If one truly enjoys the ride, the market value has little to do with the pure joy of driving and ownership. Fantastic video, a reality check from the demand and supply game being mirrored to luxury watches as well.
I think people making a quick buck were doing so because car enthusiasts were paying whatever it took to get the vehicle into their garage. Hence, Porsche was actually selling cars at below market value! It's like the way TicketMaster shoves all their Taylor Swift tickets into their own secondary marketplaces (ie their own company); the advertised price is so far below the actual price because people effectively bid up prices.
However, I'm not sure if Porsche sells to true car enthusiasts so much as true owner enthusiasts. The vast majority of enthusiasts drivers would be better served with something like the Toyota GR86, the Mazda Miata, or, if you want to scare yourself silly, a shifter-kart. Something like 3% of Porsche 911 ever see a trackday, Corvettes are under 1%. Curiously, BMW is like 5% which I did not expect. I can't help but feel that BMW's are family sedans for the upper middle class.
I bought a Spyder RS. I went to the dealer and told them I want one. And I got one. on MSRP. (This was my first Porsche)
They wrote in the contract: I need to drive it at least 1000km (I drove 2500km already and I don't want to sell it at all! :) )
Awesome contract stipulation. Are you in the uk?
@@cben86 Budapest, Hungary
you are lucky! Enjoy it, drive it as much as possible!
@@jagymeister Thank you.
@@FreestylerAlbert Why you "have to" drive It a certain amount of miles?
Jay, I am absolutely mesmerised by that wall mounted PC behind you. What a build!
I’m not normally a fan of schadenfreude but I’ll smile at porsche suffering. I’ve bought lots of their cars in the past but when I’m told I can’t have another GT3 without having to play games and buy cars I don’t want to bump myself up a list…
It was only a matter of time before market forces changed and they will be begging for the customers they previously treated with disdain.
ok brokie
@@jdm538 i'm sure you've owned many more Porsches than him, jdm538
So which other way do you suggest they prioritize customers for a limited number of cars? The fact you think it's personal or disdain just tells me you're a bit of a narcissist.
It's a nice thought and I feel your pain... but that's not gonna happen. :) Plenty of people with means are going to continue to fight to buy the special cars..... The rich people aren't going away.
Got my 2018 991.2 T at a little under MSRP, and paid MSRP for my 2023 Taycan 4S. They call me up or try to show me stuff when I stop in for service. I love looking at the nice GT3 and GT4, but I’ll be damned if I’m paying $50k-75k over MSRP for anything. I’m glad for them that they have a market for it, but $300k for a GT3 Touring? Lol, nah, I’ll get something actually exotic and unique (Superformance GT40 might be next on my list …), and keep using my lightly modified T to pass the old rich men in their GT3’s on the track, all. Day. Long.
By far my favourite video you’ve ever made. Great insight and well researched
Have to say I think this is the most interesting informative video you've done James.
I've been a Porsche nut since being a teenager and am on my 4th. For many years I studied the Porsche Market pretty much on a daily basis but then just got bored of seeing these cars commanding stupid money none of these are really worth 3,4,500k are they. Let's be honest. And also what you say about dealers turning into arses was something you just didn't experience 10/15 years ago. You reap what you sew.
Great video and very very interesting as to where the market is now.
Very interesting James, thank you.
I guess a lot of folk who love driving in the UK know that you don't need the 'halo' cars to have true driving enjoyment.
I recall a few decades back the classic car market had a recalibration and many speculators lost money.
I remember it well. 100.000 pound cars like E Types went down to 20.000 pounds. I remember lord brocket destroying 3 classic Ferraris and a very rare Maserati. Cut them up and buried then in he’s grounds. 4 million they were insured for. But then the desert storm war started and a resection began and the cars went down in value. Them cars are worth untold millions now.
Here in California it’s still, absolutely INSANE.
The 2 Porsche dealers around me won’t let you spec anything but Macans, and have used 911 4s for 160k, and gts’ for 190k….
As I said, it’s mental.
lol GTS for 190. That's poverty spec. I've seen them at 230k!
Yes. Car prices for ALL cars in Cali are insane.
dude..i was just looking for a used 911 4S..still at least $80K+..I wouldnt even consider Porsche over $60K..too many other amazing options above that..say that new body R8 V10 which is a Huracan sleeper..that's the only other rear-engine daily driver sports car besides maybe the i8 & theyre both a fraction of Porsche prices
Porsche was like “f the brokers and 2nd market, we want some of this money”
@@CCP-pb5ss I8 is a poor driving highly depreciating poor car. R8 is over rated and good luck servicing one of those. I had a Huracan Evo and it got landed with a $6000 service after 2 years. All routine items. It was dull as dishwater to drive. How it loaded up around corners was dull and borderline dangerous there is that lack of feel
I remember back in 1974 I was looking at Jaguars at my local dealership. It was the last year for the XKE. They had several lined up in row.
They couldn't sell them. 1974 was a major economic downturn. Inflation was over 11 percent. Those cars were so pretty all lined up in a row in different colors. I sure wanted one.
what i have never worked out is how porsche got away with making so many models, you order a car and by the time you get it the new model is announced
It is because 70% of new porsche buyers are mugs. Easy to get money from stupid people
huh what? the 992 generation of the 911 arrived in 2018 and the 992.2 gen hasnt even been announced yet when its releasing
@@sesto194 It’s not about generations, but about variants, particularly on the 911. I also feel there is a new combination of the letters G, R, S and T thrown at 911s every time I come across a 911 video.
@@phil4086 there isnt though. Its been the exact same lineup of 911s since the 90s. Carrera, Targa, Turbo and GT cars. Some special editions thrown in, just like every sportscar manufacturer does. No new model makes another one obsolete, so its really never like "ah damn i just ordered my GT3, but now theres a Dakar coming! "
Apple?
Spot on explanation James... great video, really.
I think the morale of the story is: Buy whatever car you LIKE, WANT and CAN AFFORD. And enjoy it.
Very interesting information, JayEmm. I have a 997 Turbo which is a somewhat daily driver. Bought it in 2018 at a good price and lived through the ups of the market and now, the downs. I'll probably run it for a few more years - enjoying the heck out of it. I'm not a car flipper but you're shown how some folks are locked into a soft market and stand to lose a bundle of cash. Should be some relatively good bargains in 2024.
Don't ever sell your 997 turbo, or if your in the U.S. sell it to me. I had one for 4 years and had to sell it 3 or so years ago for family assistance and I miss that car every single day. You will regret it. In my opinion it's the absolute best "modern" Porsche.
@@kirkwilson5900 well - it is the last narrow body model. Prices will be higher - with an expected peak in 10-15 years.
In general, I think if one owned such a car, just drive it - that's what they are meant to be for.
I had a 997.2 vert.. got totaled by some jackass with no insurance, registration and suspended license. Beyond sad I can’t hand it down to my kid
@@jeffcheng5058Sad story... Hopefully, your insurance covered it. Seems to be a good time to get a deal on a 997. Temperature today was 39°F - great drive with the top down and the heater on.
Had my Porsche 930 since 1994 :). Double factory hp now.
Great video! I owned a couple of good used 944s in the 90's, which I bought for very reasonable money, but then left the UK in 2003. Even though I will never own another Porsche, I've continued to keep an eye on UK prices and I've been shocked at how expensive they have become. The bubble had to burst at some stage and a lot of people are going to lose a lot of money.
Great video. Another factor was the massive transfer of wealth during Covid-19. The largest in history, from small business/middle class to the top.
Very good video James! In my opinion these Porsches have been overpriced for a long time already. Most of them are mass production cars with minor distictions. For me they were never worth these high prices and I could not understand, why people would spend these high amounts on them.
facts..overpriced for what they are..its all about people overpaying for the badge..why is a used 991 4S $80K+..granted they are the only ones who make rear-mid-engine daily driver sports cars..besides the Audi R8..but the i8 being half the price..makes the 911 look even more overpriced
Hype. Herd mentality.
Seems like the car market is coming back to the car fanatics, and it was about time 😍 great video again JayEmm!
FINALLY! Most people who really want one have already bought one. Therefore, these cars will become bargains compared to previous markets until the car market balances itself out!
Jay, Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini and the rest of the exotic cars have benefited greatly from the financialization/bubble/unlimited fiat currency printing. It's coming to an end now and it will be very interesting to see how they do in a world without "free" money and the wealth effect. I'll be looking to purchase one when reality hits.
The perfect storm of: higher production, much higher interest rates, and vast increases in retail prices. There will be some real bargains to come. Great analysis James! McLaren postcode 😂. The other Autotrader bloodbath is the M3 Touring; 121 for sale, and that figure is increasing rapidly. There was a new Rubystar Turbo S for sale the other day at about £162k, nearly £30k off.
I went to trade in my Macan...and buy a new 911...I used to own one but had sold it. The sales guy said it would take 2 years to order a 911S as it was too "basic" and since they were only allocated a few cars they did not want to order what I wanted as not enough margin...then tried to sell me a used one. I bought a 2024 M4 Competition model...for $50K less than the basic 911 S...pretty stoked but was really shocked at the Porsche dealership...
Good video! A friend of mine picked up a Panamera last week from a service and was taken round the back where there was a row of 911s.....apparently unsold. Like him I thought they were tough to get hold of. Interest rates have killed this market and the fact that Porsche will keep pumping out new cars to sell will only depress used prices more. The last few years of 911 specials reminds me of the Renault Clio Williams back in the day when much to the disgust of original owners, they brought out versions 2 and 3.
Interest rates are still quite low to be honest.
It's all about getting money out of people. Renault were just stopping money getting taken elsewhere by releasing the 2 and 3 at a time when VW dropped the ball.
Love that open PC build
I worked in the semiconductor industry at the time of the shortages. A fire wasn’t the real reason for the chip shortage. All of the auto manufactures thought sales would fall off the cliff and cancelled all of there orders, not realizing the time it takes to process these chips. About time they realized their mistake, chip manufacturing shifted their focus to the new demand. Servers and laptops supporting work-from-homers.
Your best video this year ! Porsche and Rolex have the same problem - they both got greedy ! ❤
They've always been greedy, but now they can get away with even more of it.
@@AlessandroCorazzaCA They are not getting away with anything at the moment - Porsche have 1,100 unregistered brand new cars in the UK and began a massive discounting scheme from 1st Nov !
It‘s the dealers who are mean and greedy, they do the mark up on new cars. Porsche dealers in Germany may sell factory new cars at list price only, maybe with a small discount. Some put them on the road for a few hundred kilometers and sell them as used, showing one owner and add a further margin. Just forget about those crooks.
@@gisiwichtlhuber3152 Not exactly sure what you’re trying to say ?
FINALLY! You're right Jay, it's about time Porsche prices start coming back down to earth. I've been following the market in Canada for a few years and the same is happening here. I recently had to pass on an allocation for a 992 C2S. I'd been waiting for a long time but MSRPs had jumped too much and I couldn't justify the new prices, particularly as the market is getting quite soft.
Exactly , i was looking at getting a 992 just before lockdown, then things slipped and now i look at the new 992 prices, its just daft and I just don't want one now. Ill keep the 997.
All seems very obvious when you put it like that!
You're absolutely right when you talk about the lack of goodwill these days. In 2021, my 14,000 mile 2018 S4 threw a thermostat and water pump 6 weeks after Audi had serviced it and a month outside warranty. Neither the dealer or Audi UK gave a f***.
I honestly think the WHOLE market is about to pop. I've been in it since '99, seen the mercurial rise of smart investments from Fords to Porsches and it just feels... slowing
People are much poorer now - inflation on their spending and interest rates on their mortgage payments. Cars, watches, crypto, everything's going bang
@@SpecialJay Absolutely - the situation has hit from both ends; the cheap money supply is gone (cheap debt, money-printing) so there's no easy money remaining to continue inflating these ridiculous speculative asset bubbles.
On top of that the debt and money printing have insurprisingly caused inflation in essential goods, meaning people have less non-debt-derived money to spend.
Reasonable to assume that all these "investible" pseudo-asset bubbles blown over the past 10-20 years are going to collapse. About bloody time too..
This was forecast to be happening 6 months ago - but it always seems like these things take longer than expected. There's going to be blood on the floor and dealers going out of business before this is over.
I await the return of £15k 3door cossies and £25k R34 GTR’s 😁😁😁
@@jeffreyrex8232 seems impossible... but...
You're absolutely right re the 992 turbo s. I bought a year old 992 c4s in 2020 before the prices went crazy. I was looking to change it last year and couldn't believe the quantity of turbo s on the market and the fact people had paid overs. As you said the turbo models never held their money. I think I might change the 992 for 991 GT3.
Well done! Starting to see some evidence of same in NA. Lots of pre-owned inventory, but still almost no new inventory at dealers. But in the US,(unlike Canada) dealers can markup at any level subject to market demand the price of a new 911. For some models that would’ve been 25 to $35,000 per vehicle USD, above MRSP. That mark up seems to be shrinking (on the very few examples of new 911’s at the dealer) which suggests there may be more new car inventory headed to dealers. Let’s hope so!
Dealerships in Canada still have their ways of marking up “new” cars. They just make it a “used” one and vola~. Disgusting but hey it’s a free market if someone is willing to pay a premium then good on them. Buying anything above listed price never sits well with me.
Interesting insight Jay. Thanks. I own a 07 997 Turbo Manual. I won't say I bought as an investment, but I am obviously hopeful of not losing too much £££ during my ownership. I tend to keep an eye on what some of the better Porsche indy's (Paragon, 911 Virgin, Harbour, Hexagon) get in stock, how they price them and how quickly stock moves. I haven't noticed any decrease in price, speed of sale of the 993, 996 and 997 models in the past year or so. So I'm not sure if or how the depreciation of the more exotic 991/992 will impact the older generations. Perhaps they will remain unharmed. There are after all solid reasons why the 992's are going down in price aside of the end of cheap credit, excess GT/Turbo S cars produced, the new .2 car recently unveiled, production rates returning to normal, slower sales as we enter winter.
I too currently own a 997 turbo manual. My thoughts exact. And my heart really doesn’t go out to those having to lower prices to STILL well over MSRP. I’m not too sure how this applies to older generations that are still under their original MSRP. Mine was 170k usd new.
I too have a 997 Turbo MT. Honestly for the price, there's nothing else like it. Fit my whole family, the thrill of turbo boost, 911 handling, etc.
I think you guys are going to be fine, there might be a correction but that car is having classic status, there are no more manual turbos since the 997 so those cars will never become cheap.
@@almoncashews plus it’s one of the lowest produced 911’s as far as I’m aware. 08-09 crash devastated sales for the 997’s. They’re only becoming more and more rare
Still think the special stuff will be difficult to get a hold of and carry premiums. However, the days of buying a regular Carrera S, driving it for 3000 miles and getting your money back (and maybe then some) are over for now.
Well if you have the money it no longer looks the same for now for stuff such as the GT3 or GT4RS. No longer cars where you make 50-100k as soon you try to sell them. Seeing dealers (even Porsche dealers) knocking £10k off GT3’s £20k off GT4RS and the fact they're sitting for months is pretty astonishing. Although probably a good thing the used market for GT Porsche's was just fucking ridiculous for the last few years full of speculators who deserve to have their cornflakes shit in by the market.
@@teabagtowers3823 Maybe it is different in the UK, but in Europe a 992 3RS is still 50-100k (€) overs easy. The GT4 RS has been 30-40k (€) over at most in Europe. This is also the worst time to sell, I'm guessing with falling interests rates as inflation decreases I'm sure that we will still see good overs on the 3RS next year, and they will probably never be at list.
@@3xc1t3r Maybe it is different in Europe or the US but it does look like here in the UK the market has shit the bed. You have to admit it is pretty extraordinary that Porsche dealers are selling GT4RS where they have slashed the price by £20,000. If a year ago the GT4RS was selling for £250-£280k I wouldn't even be surprised.
I found a manual 992 GT3 Touring with a manual and with 1600 miles on the clock for £184k on auto trader. If you spec up a 992 GT3 Touring on Porsche configurator they're around that depending on how you option it. Give or take a bit..... Last year that GT3 Touring I found I wouldn't have even been surprised if it was listed for £250k. Yet now it's selling for basically not far off what Porsche asks for them new.
For reference I have attached that Tourings advert.
www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202308100648086
There are 70 992 GT3 Porsche's for sale on Autotrader in the UK there over 160 Turbo S for sale in the UK. Judging by the slashed prices and the time some of them have been sat on dealers forecourts. There is definitely a correction going on I mean seriously a £20,000 discount on a Cayman GT4RS from original listing price. I found a GT4RS with 2054 miles for £169,500. Something is going on in the market.
www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202310042653473
Love what you did with that wall-mounted PC and its custom loop. Very cool!
With the economy uncertain, not buying a car right now makes sense for a few reasons.
Firstly, cars are costly, and in uncertain times, it's crucial to save money and keep your finances stable. Using public transport or rideshares can save you money.
Secondly, technology and car-sharing options offer convenient transport without the expenses of owning a car, like maintenance and insurance.
Moreover, fewer cars mean lower emissions, contributing to a greener planet. Choosing eco-friendly options supports global efforts to fight climate change.
Lastly, waiting lets you assess your finances when things stabilize. You can focus on saving, investing, or other essential needs like education or debts.
Being patient and evaluating your needs can lead to a wise and financially responsible decision about getting a car.
My financial advisor advises buying cars when interest rates and prices are low. However, he also cautions against it right now due to the hidden costs of car ownership, like insurance and maintenance. He helps me plan for these expenses and manages my portfolio to ensure financial stability. It's all about making strategic decisions and having a well-rounded financial plan.
Your financial journey is truly inspiring, and I'm currently striving to achieve the goals you've reached. Could you please share some tips to help others learn and navigate their own paths to financial success? Your insights would be invaluable.
Samuel Peter Descovich that's whom I work with
I believe everyone could benefit from having a personal financial advisor. They can assist you in reaching your customized financial objectives at any point, ensuring you remain profitable.
The economy might be uncertain but I'm pretty sure that anyone speculating a Porsche will not be considering public transport or rideshares to save money...
Slightly off topic but I went to my local Porsche dealer interested in a Taycan. I turned up in my X4 M Competition. I was honest with the guy about my budget and - for what they had in stock I was about 4k short. Had he offered me a test drive I might have found that 4k or met him somewhere in the middle. His advice? Keep the X4! I went to Audi who were happy to let me test drive an RS Etron GT (same car essentially). It was 12k over my budget. But I test drove it. And I wanted it. And I found the extra money to buy it. Basically the Porsche guy (who drove a mini electric) assumed that I couldn’t afford one of his cars and let me walk away. I will never return.
You’ve dodged a bullet. Depreciation on a Taycan is catastrophic Macmaster (TH-cam creator) has just had a WBAC valuation of £11k lower than last month, £11k in a month!!! That’s £311/day or 10p/sec.
The arse is falling out of the used car market, if you can afford to hold on then do so as it’ll recover. Or perhaps it won’t and I’ll be stuck with my C63 until the drip has filled the bath, which would be a terrible suffrage as I love my fast merc.
I think you may be jumping to a conclusion here
I told my local Porsche dealer I was selling my Cayman. Their salesman was desperate to get me back in a Porsche so I said "I want a £20k hot hatch, good luck". Had a 30 minute test drive in a £70k Macan GTS, I'd say it was fun, but I wanted a hot hatch which is actually fun. We didn't even go through the budget/finance stuff beforehand. Makes me think it's mostly the dealer or, more specifically, the franchise group.
On the other hand, I went into Merc a few years back to help my Dad buy a car. Both turned up in hoodies (not putting a shirt on to test drive a car...that's just odd) and the dealer literally said "are you sure you want to buy a Mercedes sir?" - a week later, he had a brand new Audi 🤣 The nearby BMW dealer, incidentally in the same group as my local Porsche dealer, just ignored him. I've booked 2 test drives for myself with that BMW dealer since - spent a total of 2 hours sat in their reception, 0 test drives...bought a Lexus and Porsche on those occasions instead. Other BMW dealers, I've had good experiences with though.
What a stupid story.
He didn't assume anything. You told him your budget and you were 4k too short. You basically told him you couldn't afford it. Lol.
Great video Jay. I am really pleased that some reality is returning to the market and I am also very happy that the market is sticking it to the arrogant Porsche dealers. If they had been nicer to me instead of making me feel a Mr nobody then I would probably be driving a 911 instead of my current non Porsche.
What's it like, driving a non-Porsche?
. 600HP, more space and cheaper to run.@@OMGWTFLOLSMH
I've found Porsche dealers to be fantastic, probably the nicest dealers to visit.
Cars, watches, all having massive price corrections, cheers fella, as always a really great video.
I think this also speaks to a broader affordability issue, not just for the special stuff. I’m looking at upgrading cars next year and love the idea of a 992, but cannot get my head around the prices that the S and GTS are commanding as well. As you flagged at the start, Porsche have always had very strong residuals, but with supply chain issues largely resolved and these models being completely unlimited, 120 / 130k+ just feels a bit crazy. But maybe that is just the ways things are now - I know that a brand new M4 can be over 100k with options so maybe in that context it doesn’t sound as crazy, but it all feels a bit unsustainable especially as interest rates will really start to bite when people’s PCPs finish.
I could suggest you give the 911T some consideration is you are not married to the idea that it has to be an S or higher. Considering that all engines on the current 911s are all turbocharged anyways, you can get a T with a software reflash and be just as potent or better than an S, but with all the performance equipment.
Yes no funny that Porsche has focused on the GT models and used 992 are not so many. Maybe a new 992 Carrera is the way to go? what is the lead time?
When "They" Hyped up that Cayman GT4 RS cost more than a GT3 RS, that's what we know the market is silly and we should turn elsewhere.
I think, when you pick the right model, enjoy it for a while because you want to own and drive it, depreciation will not be your main problem. For example one of the last flat six Caymans. But you have to bare in mind that meanwhile you use a Porsche you will have pretty high maintenance costs which will presumably not be covered by the potential selling price.
Great Video and I agree 100%. The old rare cars will keep their value better I suspect. Production numbers are also so high, look at the 997.2 GT2RS for example, only 500 made and a legendary car. There are 5x as many 991.2 GT2RS, 30 for sale right now in Germany and priced at 400-600k. At the same time there are only 2 997.2 GT3RS for sale in Germany right now and they’re cheaper. It just doesn’t make sense.
But it is also demand for a car. You could have a car that is 1:1 build but if nobody wants it then its worthless. You have to look what old money is buying. For damn sure they aint buying aventadors.
@@buraksarikaya9798in Germany people don’t like to stand out as much as in let’s say Los Angeles. Porsche are better daily drivers and maintenance is cheaper than a Lambo or Ferrari
I was never really in "it" with a non-s, 981 Cayman with a lot of miles, but I'm definitely starting to think about a safari build on it now, and just having fun with it... It's still a beautiful, manual, Guards Red example.
Love these videos Jay, your insider knowledge is really refreshing and HONEST. Not going to get this info from speculators or the dealers...it highlights the traps people fall into when over exposed, thinking the market will always go up...supply and demand essentially...and huge interest rates to curb inflation. This is one of the examples of BOE raising interest rates to curb inflation. Over sticker prices are the definition of inflation. On this occasion the high interest rates set, make sense to reign in over spending especially if the supply will eventually catch up with demand...thanks again. If you want to review a Megane 4Rs Trophy let me know 😊
I sure do! Ping me an email
Thank you for the candid, knowledgeable and humorous views. I feel you are always able to capture the essentials in a very entertaining way, and I feel like my small universe expands as I watch your reviews. I personally just bought a used Cayman S… loving it, but didn’t empty the bank account for it! 😅 Gracias Jay!
Say what you want, the GT4 RS is an absolute, insanely good sounding dream car. Just for the joy of driving and hearing it for many years, it would be worth the cash.
lol it is a lovely car but it is way over priced. I'll wait 6 months and get a cheaper deal.
Gt3 sounds better
Great video and thanks for letting us know about autotrader tracker. On your last point about PCPs. Luckily the customer will be protected on PCP and it will be the finance company’s loss. But this will see let’s more 911s being handed back and then sent to auction by the finance company driving down prices even more. Hopefully lots of bargains at auction for us petrolheads.
Here in Germany, most of the cars are still overpriced. For the last 30 years I almost always bought 2-3yo luxury cars, mostly 7-Series, S-Class, Range Rovers, and typically they lost about 60% of the original price, so I was able to buy almost "new" cars for less than half the price.
Yesterday I went to my Mercedes Dealer and they wanted 129k for an S580, that was new 155k in 2021.....
Prices are just too high at the moment
Exactly
Let them sit on it, they will desperate to move it once they realize no takers for awhile. Check back in a month
But how do you deal with expensive repair after warranty expires?
@@lucky889s9 in the UK, if you buy used from a dealer, with full history and approved, then you have the option to pay monthly, to extended the warranty. There are rules to this though, like no modifications and you have to keep the car servicing with the manufacturer.
@@lucky889s9 Im in my late 60s and had about 40 cars (including those I bought for my wife, family) and I never had really any big issues besides a Volvo 850 which I bought new and it was broken 8 times during warranty. Ones an Air-Suspension compressor changed on my 08 Jag XJ. But all the other problems I had with cars were fixable for less than 500 Euro...
And even if a car has a major issue its usually still much cheaper to fix it and get another 50k miles out of it.
I drive a 911 but I never bought a car as an investment, only for pleasure and to keep it for as long as possible or at least exchange it at the main Porsche dealership to get a price reduction on the newer 911 model. My advice to anyone looking for a 911 for pleasure, instead of buying the more expensive GTS, Turbo S or even GT3 models, look for a more humble simple Carrera and pick all the options you desire in it.
If you think the price isn't that expensive for you, then do the same with the Carrera S, and so on. You can skip the simple 4 and go from S to 4S but personally I'd switch directly from S to GTS if you aren't looking for a much more expensive Turbo or GT3. Just know that generally a version with a very good amount of options picked tends to be the base price for the next version, as in a fully decked out Carrera will be around the base price of the Carrera S, and so on. Nobody's going to be making fun of you for not having the most expensive 911 because there aren't a lot of people who can afford the base one anyway.
Also don't forget that while you might afford to BUY a Turbo or GT3, don't forget that the yearly expenses on it are going to be much more expensive than any Carrera simply because the engine is that much more powerful. To get you an idea, it's 931,66€ for the annual road taxe on a Carrera where I live, it's 2086,13€ for both Turbo's and 2374,94€ for both GT3's. That difference in yearly expense gives you enough "saving" to allow you to modify a part of your car every year to a couple years.
Informative for sure, one big eye opener… my problem is no matter how much they depreciate I STILL cannot afford one ?? Haha …
Brilliant analysis. There's something to be said about not spending right up to the margins of your budget on any big purchase. The scenario you've outlined here for the Porsche market were the precise circumstances of the 2008 housing market crash. My dream was a Cayman GT3 but I settled for a used, low mileage base Cayman. I was able to pay cash and I enjoy more had I borrowed on the GT3.
👏🏼
Hi Jay, very nice video and valid topic, a lot of those GT4 and GT3 were purely bought for flipping and currently someone is stuck with them either dealer or flipper, however, there is other side of Porsche pricing now - the “non desired models”. I am in market for Panamera Sport Turismo GTS or Turbo and it’s empty or priced 15%+ compared to what they were in August, same with my current used Macan S, I still can sell it for same price a year and 20 000 km later here in France. I hope winter brings some more joy to prices on Panamera’s and the pricing trend comes from the coupe’s also to the rest of lineup, however one thing I have noticed- the stocks of Taycans are massive, literally has chance to become the most depreciating Porsche model…
The challenge w/the Panamera now (from about 6 weeks ago) is that they are no longer available for order so as to prepare for the updated model - which will be announced at the LA Show and will be orderable in May 2024. The engine choices will be the same as in the new Cayenne, so more hybrids. The "new" GTS is a question mark and the Turbo will be hybrid.
never understood the point of Macan other than to be a more tame Porsche for soccer moms to drive..definitely get that Panamera next..in US the GTS & Turbos are @ great prices..but 911 still ridiculous overpriced for what it is..but ive yet to drive a rear-mid-engine to know what all the fuss is about..its on my list but..its double the price of the i8 & i dont see how
@@CCP-pb5ss well it’s soccer mom car in US, in Europe you are limited w space for SUV, try to go with that GLS, Cayenne, X7 or god forbid GMC somewhere in south of France or Italy. It’s a pain to say the least. So ppl opt out for mid size SUV, X3, Macan, GLC etc.
I've had a Panamera on order for 10 months and the approaching production switch for the new model is making me nervous. Wanted a GTS but was told back then that they couldn't be ordered and the GTS would be a long time coming with the new version due to the way Porsche release the model variants.
The number of new and pre-registered Taycans for sale in some Porsche Dealers at the moment is a real eye opener. Expect big discounts for this model also.
I have a Macan at the moment and Porsche recently emailed me offering £5k off a new Taycan and promised delivery by Xmas.
The perfect storm cometh! As others have said, I think this is trend for the whole car market but maybe not as severe as Porsche. Going to be interesting to watch this play out and what happens in say 5-10 years from now.
Great video. I have always thought the number of TurboS 992s was ridiculous. I was tempted last year. I would have lost £50k. I now wondering when the prices will bottom out???
Wow.. just wow.. You definitely hit the nail on the head with this video! In 2021 I actually got a BMW 2 series 240i "used" with all extras and 758miles on the clock for 12k £ less than a new one. It's the same car I am still driving today. Only for year later to see the prices sky-rocket and wondered WTH?! How come my car is now more expensive than when I got it?!
Respect for the research and the video!
PS: A Porsche over 100k £ is just insane.. it's a mechanical car - not made of gold. (I still wish I would have bought that 944 in 2013 now though :)) )
So true. I had the best of both worlds- began looking at a new Macan GTS for my wife the very end of 2020 (dealers were dropping prices like mad) and waited until until Jan 2021 to sign (got even more off and better financing). Going forward, my rule of thumb has become to wait until Jan or Feb (winter) to by a sports car and push the deal to the very end of the month....I got $5K off my 911 GTS!
The whole market is coming back to reality. But it’s great news about Porsche prices returning to reality. It’s time for those cars to get back on the road and out of the hands of flippers.
Just checked the price on my low mileage 2008 metzger 911 turbo Manual cab and its worth a lot more then I paid for it.
Another great video. I suspect Porsche won’t be happy with you though for showing how they have had to reduce their in stock prices. Pricing is still too expensive but looking forward to the day when we see a sub £100k 992 GT3!
Sub 100 on a gt3 992, hilarious that will be a long time coming.
@@Dave-vy2de Never! Once they introduce a new GT model the limited number of older ones hold their money and even go up over time. Look at the crazy prices for the 997.2 GT3 RS 3.8 and 4.0!
@@Dave-vy2de True, it might take some time but not sure it’s unobtainable. 991 GT3s are sub £100k now, granted they are 8/9 years old. I think the days of over inflated prices for any Porsche unless it’s a very limited car are over.
Great video. Last year I was fortunate to buy my first Porsche, Cayman GTS and it was far and away the most unreliable car I've ever owned. It wasn't the car that ruined the experience though, it was the dealers. Over the 13 months I owed it I took it to 3 dealers for warranty work and it came back with something new broken every time. I cut my losses and got rid of the car two months ago and couldn't be happier. The worst part was the smugness, the culture of the dealers around me is that I should be thankful I even have a porsche.
They need to be brought back down to earth imo. At the moment, and in recent times, they can't lose. If this recession does happen, 'officially', then that will be the catalyst. The speculators would bail like rats off a sinking ship, and the market would tank. That would wipe the smugness.
I wish this was the case in California..... where prices have definitively not gone DOWN , as a matter of fact they have gone the other way as in UP.
Ive got a similar frustration over here in the US. The LFA is a dream car of mine. And ive noticed a pattern with the car culture coming on to late 2000s super cars getting hyped to the moon all of a sudden. The SLS black series, murcielago sv, manual merci, and the lfa. I remember back in the day when the lfa came out so many people crapped on it and thought it was a lame slow car. Ive been a fan of that thing since its release. Now everyone decided its gods gift to driving haha. Im glad people are realizing its a great car but its gone to a point where collectors are just buying these cars and gate keeping them at 800k plus. Thats crazy. I depise flippers and people who just buy cars just to turn a quick profit. I guess if youre a rich guy, making money through every avenue is the smart thing to do but i think its also lame when they gate keep these cars. Enjoy the cars damn it
How I felt about the NSX.
Very interesting topic you covered here. After these fat years we’ve had you now see a returning to a „normal“. The effects you explained in a very interesting and informative manner seem not to have happened yet in Switzerland. I’m wondering if and when this will be the case here. Keep up the great work. Cheers from Switzerland
Unsure about this. Cars seem to be sitting longer on Autoscout....