Watching this video back, I should have addressed the idea that not vegan bodybuilding would be a practicable and possible act for reducing harm to animals in theory but it still isn't compelling. I don't think the net effect of deleting vegan bodybuilders is 'reduced harm' since every vegan bodybuilder is a paradigm shifter at this point. Further, the expectation that vegans have to count calories to be ethical is another example of an extraneous mental burden that would make veganism more difficult and hypothetically create a barrier to entry to saving MORE animals with more vegans if it is expected. Sorry, no dessert since it is extra calories! Bottom line: This "needless" harm caused by extra vegan calories is simply not a persuasive call for vegans to accept the direct, intentional eating of animals or feel like they are somehow failing their own ethics (or whatever his point was here). This has helped me realize that while the definition of veganism is a core tenet of mine, there are other logical or strategic principles that dictate where I think the line for vegan behavior would be best drawn. Also I ironically and randomly stumbled upon this article about how to be vegan as an Oxford student! cherwell.org/2024/04/28/veganism-oxford-student/
I agree with Alex somewhat and am vegan, however Alex says it isn't unethical because it doesn't feel unethical to be a body builder, I don't agree with that at all. Alex is ethically cowardly and doesn't want to commit to any ideas of what is ethical, he uses talk to distract people from calling out his hypocrisy. Vegan body building is an oxymoron unless you carry extra weight as a back up to protect against ill health periods or if you need the strength for important work. The bottom line is most "vegans" probably aren't vegan
I would caution against a utilitarian approach to vegan bodybuilders being a current paradigm shifter. I think the question of whether minimizing harm to animals is either a deontological rule, or a utilitarian calculation; the latter of which had serious implications. Hypothetically, if there exists some highly charismatic person that strongly ties being permitted to eat meat with converting people to veganism; would that justify his continued meat consumption? If you don't let him eat meat, he will stop helping the vegan cause. But if you do, in this hypothetical scenario, he will absolutely succeed in convincing 10 other person to become vegan, for each day he can eat meat. A utilitarian approach might say "yes" to this (and the paradigm shifting vegan bodybuilder), but would that be right?
Mic, please read my comment on this subject. I understand that Alex is an idiot (as far as veganism is concerned anyways) and didn't make very compelling arguments on the subject (I don't think he actually gets it himself) Thank you for at least saying vegans should be talking about it tho
Vegan bodybuilding to a certain point can be a path to be healthier and live longer. I'm trying to put on muscle with wait lifting and calisthenics. I'm fifty years old and I'm feeling better than ever. My back pain has disappeared I feel stronger and have more energy. I also eat a little more than I would if I wasn't working out but I follow a vegan diet. I don't think that in a world where so many people overeat on an omnivore diet I should restrict my eating. As a vegan I already have a better diet than average. I don't let perfect get in the way of better. 🥦
Alex O’Connor starting to display the cognitive dissonance of regular meat eaters, it seems that it comes with the diet. They try hard to justify their practices.
@@aroomofmIOwn 👍The😺😸follow me everywhere, so I must be doing something right. They do make me larf.. & larf.. & larf some more. Sleep is another matter but we manage.😴
I wish. Cognitive dissonance is the pain from holding opposing viewpoints, it's a response of a healthy mind that forces it to adapt more logical and coherent viewpoints, it's the same as pain you feel when you put your hand to fire that forces you to pull it back. It's normal and it's healthy. The issue is LACK of cognitive dissonance.
@@jprice_ But in this case they know the pain is causing when they put their hand on fire and they still don't take action to pull it back, that's cognitive dissonance. If they take action they don't have to suffer from cognitive dissonance.
The longer I am vegan the more I realize that a lot of these so called arguments that these meat eaters make are just coping mechanisms for their diet choices. It's hard to even take them seriously. Bravo to you Mic for having the patience to address these things. It's just goofy to me at this point.
Philosophers talking about ethics is coping mechanism? Vegans talking about ethics while being so hostile towards philosophical discourses makes them hard to take seriously.
Yes. This is exactly how I feel. I used to get annoyed by non-vegans but I've honestly just lost patience. They think that they're being original and intelligent with their arguments. They have no idea that they're all spouting the exact same re-hashed nonsense. At this point, Its just boring to listen to
I don't eat meat. but the guy is right. why do vegan cultists hate logic ? because you pumped up your ego and think you're amazing and they suck. When some one points out you can still improve you attack them visciously because you think your fake ego image is under attack. tis a sad state of affairs. most of you vegans aren't even trying to switch to public transport - instead you glorify hotel culture (which is so terrible for environment) all over social media
@@user-iy7lk7ig4h Then don't engage. And maybe don't ever talk about ethics, good and bad, what's moral and immoral again. Since you're so hostile towards philosophy.
20 years a vegan. I am a non-competitive bodybuilder. 5'10" 217lbs abs, jacked. 54 years old. Tempeh, pea protein, and high protein extra firm tofu are my favorite sources of amino acids. I love being a poster boy antithesis to the scrawny, weak vegan stereotype. I wish I had more reach in order to help crush these stupid stereotypes that confound masculinity, strength, and virility with eating animals, but I'm old, and a bit too lazy to try to build some kind of platform to spread a message. Love your videos. Have subscribed for years.
It's not a terrible thought, but it's pretty much like saying to people "If you are vegan you should limit your walking in the woods" or other absurdities. As Mic pointed out, Alex's video probably ended up causing more animal deaths than a vegan bodybuilder's video promoting veganism.
It’s quite clear he’s been getting his nonsensical arguments against veganism/for not being vegan from his friend ‘Rationality Rules’. He’s just selfish. He never knew what he was talking about regarding ethics with animals - he was only concerned about “factory farming, factory farming, factory farming”.
He doesn't have arguments against it as he's for vegansim. He wants as many people as possible to be Vegan. He was just answering a question about his approach to the philosophy (reducing harm/death as much as possible vs. as much as practicable while living the life you want etc.)
@@jamesadam4415 Yes, that is true. His point was still weak. Alex understands breaking a point down to the very fundamentals. He's arguing if you can't cause absolutely zero harm, don't try at all. Which is madness. And is he still supporting factory farms??
Both are always repeating the same bullshit argument. So annoying and repetitive. Alex is such a loser that he can't even make up arguments of his own, has to recycle or outright copy bad arguments from 'Rationality Rules' guy
I always found Paul Joseph Watson's obsession with "soyboys" ridiculously ironic ... I suspect Alex has something of the "sensitive 19th century thinker dying slowly of tuberculosis" going on ...
This whole discussion could be avoided if we just made clear that veganism is not about reducing "unnecessary" suffering/harm, etc. Veganism is the principle that humans should live without *exploiting* other animals. That is, rejecting the *use* of other animals for human ends. A vegan that eats extra calories may cause some extra harm, and so does a vegan that walks more than the minimum needed, but that doesn't mean that such harm was a result of *using* those animals for our own benefit, so there's no contradiction with being vegan.
@@mithunbalaji8199 yeah, but my point is that those arguments (the ones that Alex presented) are a misrepresentation of veganism. Veganism is like the abolitionist principle for human slavery. Does abolitionism tackled EVERY human suffering and death? No, it was focused on ending the master-slave relation between humans. That doesn't mean that an abolitionist can't care for those other deaths, but the fact that they exist are not a burden of the abolitionism movement and, moreover, they don't discredit it. Veganism is exactly the same, just change humans with other animals. The fact that there is suffering and death outside animal exploitation doesn't discredit veganism, as Alex pathetically attempted to do so.
You missed the point, it’s entirely philosophical and doesn’t address his argument at all. The logic is this: veganism claims to “reduce all suffering as is practically possible”. Body building causes more suffering than is necessary to live a happy and healthy life. Therefore it isn’t vegan to be a bodybuilder. It’s a small point, sure. But one could argue eating one meal of meat a year would be a small issue. It’s still wrong. I think the only solution is to indeed agree with him and say body building is unethical, marginally so of course.
@@joshyman221He’s using a utilitarian argument and when you use utility (consequences) you have to consider all variables. As Mic said in the video, if we got rid of all vegan bodybuilders it is very likely that fewer people would go vegan, particularly men who are interested in growing muscle. Bodybuilders are possibly some of the most effective vegan role models, there’s a reason why The Game Changers did so well. You have to consider all implications, not just the actual action but everything derived from it as well. When you do you realize that those extra calories are not at all unnecessary (not to mention that bodybuilders also cut, they don’t just bulk).
@@joshyman221 It’s too abstract to be some kind of an argument. Eating one meal of meat per year is a systemic issue and not an individual one, as we need an entire slaughterhouse industry to make it possible. Vegan bodybuilding or even vegan obesity requires no such thing.
@@hugomarquez3189once again you missed the point. I absolutely agree in the current world, being a vegan bodybuilder is a far better way to live to convince others to go vegan and show its healthy. But imagine a purely vegan world (what a dream). In that case, I don’t see how it can’t be the case that purposefully (important caveat) eating in excess of your means on a regular basis isn’t immoral. You’re causing more harm to others for something completely trivial (being a bodybuilder).
@@UTF016what if you go out and kill that animal yourself? Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s wrong. But the same logic for why that’s wrong has to make vegan bodybuilder wrong (if we lived in a vegan world).
Alex, after describing the vegan bodybuilding hypothetical, literally says word for word "Now, it doesn't follow from this that therefore eating animals is fine." If you're going to disagree with him, more power to you. But at least make the most minute effort to understand the viewpoint that you're disagreeing with.
My tax bracket, i am considered working class poor. This June 1st, will be my 9th year since going vegan. I understand how to work my limited food budget into the framework of veganism. High profile people, allegely educated people like "cosmic beast", who have total access to thee best vegan food, clothing, and lifestyle options, yet they make the choice to turn away from veganism, declaring it's "impractical" is the definition of willful, self absorbed, ego. The fact that said beast is splitting hairs to make vegan bodybuilders as a negative, is tellng as it is pathetic.
Here were my comments to Alex at the time: Regarding vegan bodybuilding, I think “causing unnecessary suffering” is just inherently undefinable and a slippery slope. Alex is definitely right: Vegan body-builders consume unnecessary calories for muscle growth. Also, vegans do things like ordering take-out and delivery, which includes packaging that inflicts (albeit, indirectly) unnecessary harm (and suffering) on animals and their habitats. At times, vegans shop non-locally, again indirectly harming animals through transportation pollution. At times, vegans drink caloric beverages and caloric snacks based on taste pleasure, not pure caloric maintenance needs. Also, is going for a run “necessary”, if you’re going to have to consume even more vegan calories than you otherwise would have that day? Hell, should you have walked “unnecessarily”? That little stroll cost 90 calories. The analysis quickly slips into absurdity. Vegans, and no one else, can ever meet a strict standard of “cause no unnecessary harm”. “Necessary” requires listing the multitude of human physical and mental states and then asking is each one “necessary”? Is a physically and mentally “healthy” body even necessary? Or is pursuing one’s health kind of a “luxury”, taxed with the health of the planet? Maybe? But also, I don’t think vegans ever strictly mean, “only do exactly what is necessary.” Nutritionists and doctors might (and do) argue that everyone should be adding muscle to their bodies to fend off sarcopenia (muscle loss) in old age. We should be adding to our muscle “retirement plan”, they say. More broadly, they also argue for daily cardio and weight-resistance exercises for physical and mental health benefits. Both of these physical activities, again, require more than “maintenance calories”. They are medically prescribed, but they aren’t absolutely “required” (aka unnecessary) for our daily survival. I think what many vegans are actually trying to say is simply this: “It’s often hard to see the harm I’m causing animals with my daily behavior, but one sure way to know I’ve harmed an animal is if it’s currently in my mouth. So I’m gonna try and do things that don’t involve that.” Of course there’s more. But we (everyone) exhaust ourselves with guilt over personal action. We’re stuck in a seeming contradiction where we’re told constantly that we’re insignificant and our actions don’t matter, but also, every single thing we buy and consume is killing the planet, the future, and somebody, somewhere, right f-ing now, you a-hole! So it makes sense for both vegans and non-vegans to just want to throw up their hands. But anything, everything, you do to try to learn how the things we buy are produced, and the gradual movement away from obviously terrible means of production and toward not-so-obviously terrible ones is a goal I think we can all agree on. It’s exhausting, yes, but I think, if you just find people in your life who are behaving in ways you admire, just stick closer to them. Let them encourage you. Encouragement nourishes the exhausted.
Now I'm worried that typing this comment is making me not vegan any more. I don't need to type this comment, and my fingers are burning extra calories by doing it. How many baby deer am I killing by typing this???? Uh oh, I typed more question marks than I needed to. Is that another baby deer dead? Because of me? I'm going to stop now. I'll just be lying here trying to not move any more than absolutely necessary to remain barely alive. That way I can be vegan again. Sorry to all of my fellow vegans for not being vegan while I sit up and type this. Oops, I just killed another deer!
Vegan recitational athlete here. I like to run, swim and bike. I play some team sports. I definitely eat more calories than I would eat if I just laid in bed all day. I have no ethical problems with body builders. This is a ridiculous argument.
He's got nothing on Sam Harris, Sadhguru, Neil deGrasse Tyson, Eckhart Tolle and Jordan Peterson. It's amazing how otherwise-intelligent people will manipulate the thought process when it comes to actually inconveniencing their ego-fking-tistical selves.
@@terryjackson9395 I would add Richard Dawkins in there, but I don't know if I should blame his stroke for his recent mental decline, or if he's just showing who he always was.
In the game of life, there are two paths one can take to climb the ladder of success: self-improvement or the degradation of others. Alex has chosen the latter, seeking validation by tearing others down. The once steadfast commitment to veganism now serves as a curse, haunting his conscience with the unrelenting weight of moral inadequacy. Rather than exploring alternative solutions to his health issues while being sympathetic to veganism, he has selfishly chosen to embrace a lifestyle that directly contradicts his supposed values. This shift in behavior, to make these weak arguments against vegan bodybuilding, signifies a deeper flaw in his character, one that is driven by the need to maintain a facade of moral superiority at any cost. Alex's inability to confront his own shortcomings has led him down a path of deception and manipulation. His desire to tear others down is a desperate attempt to prop up his own ego, setting him on a sad trajectory.
He said he doesn't know anything about gut health. He is not willing to read up about it and try to figure out what is causing his problems instead just blaming plants and going post-vegan.
Alex really be showing that a philosophy degree means absolutely nothing if you don’t know how to mediate all of the abstract disconnected ramblings of people who want desperately for the world to be purely logical and mathematical.
you're so right. these type of silly arguments are so common in advanced philosophy classes and he's getting a bit disconnected from things that are actually tangible.
He is smart, but honestly I think he is way more concerned with his image and career than any ethical principle. The arc he has been on lately with talking to right wingers and barely pushing back on any of their actual ethical and political prescriptions, which have a WAY more important impact on the real world, only to question them on their stance of free will or theology. I’ve studied philosophy myself, and even I see that the real world implications of questions like that really aren’t interesting beyond what would almost be intellectual masturbation. What matters is us, beings, and how we actually treat each other based on the most accurate knowledge we have of the material and social world. He has ditched animal and human rights advocacy in favour of being a palatable legitimizer for pretentious status quo defenders, basically…
These arguments are so convoluted. I don't think it's a stretch to assume that he's just trying to justify has own actions. It must be so stressful to be at odds with your own sense of morality in this way. I wish him the best
@@Combative_Dissident are you Alex O'Connor? He's been a prolific advocate against animal cruelty for more than 14 years then started eating them anyway. He's still arguing for welfare and reducing consumption even though his actions don't align with his morals. Your user name instantly says you aren't in this to learn or make an actual contribution for or against this specific topic. Your cringe-lord attempt didn't even have a topic or or make a point. I'd suggest you educate yourself before jumping into a conversation. Or better yet just let the adults talk here
If you watch the full clip he’s just bringing up a philosophical idea and explicitly says you can’t just make the conclusion from it that it’s okay to eat meat
It's true - every step I take causes squirrels and rabbits to flee for a mile radius. When I do pushups, there are earthquakes in China. And I just keep going. 800 pounds, 900 pounds, tough sh*t little man.
It's not his argument. He's such a loser that he can't even make up arguments of his own; he has to recycle ♻️ or outright copy "rationality rules" guy's arguments against veganism.
It's not his argument. He's such a loser that he can't even come up with his own arguments; he has to recycle ♻️ or outright copy the 'Rationality Rules' guy's arguments against veganism.
I think the thing that makes this line of reasoning the most uncomfortable for me is also that bodybuilders aren't the only ones who eat more than they need to survive. people who are overweight eat more as well and weight problems are very difficult to manage
That is what is referred to as a false analogy. Comparing a person who has an eating disorder to someone that chooses to eat excess calories, and thus kill animals needlessly, to gain muscles they don't need is not the same thing. One is a choice the other (in many or even most cases) is not.
@@langreeves6419 This is where vegans lose their minds and start sounding liek carnists with their carnist book of logic... a perfect analogy? It isn't even remotely the same. 1 has a choice not to pick up the weights, the other does not have a choice not to overeat. Even the OP points it out. If veganism is about finding excuses to kill animals for your own pleasure by using people with ED's ... well done. Mission accomplished.
My approach has shifted from an indiviual boycott approach to a top-down legislation and industry-reform type approach, so until it's illegal, I will keep my slaves for... *practical reasons* Yep 🙂
There's a lot I don't understand about others, but in my 21 years without meat, I've realized that meat is doing different things for others than it is for me. What those things are, I'm not 100% sure. Once I saw that I could not just do without it, but do better, I immediately stopped and never went back once. My wife experienced the same benefits as me, but went back for 15 years. Why? I have no idea, but there's something that's holding people to meat - something beyond culture and tradition. Now, on top of that, some small-minded people aren't content to just fail at something and try again or move on. They have to tear down others who are succeeding. That's why veganism and plant-based eating are the objects of so much hostility, in my estimation. Those that live that way are proof that humans can easily and comfortably live on vegetation, which is a constant reminder of the unnecessary violence that those who do not are engaged in
Why is Alex singling out bodybuilders? Anyone who exercises, is an athlete, or has a physical job requires more calories. Michael Phelps ate 10,000 calories/day.
@@_mark_3814 Bodybuilding requires bulks and CUTS. They average out. Bodybuilders are typically the leanest athletes. It's whatevers required by the sport. People don't have to play sports. Do you think athletes that require strength, like football, basketball, baseball, etc, don't bulk and CUT. What do do you think the strength and conditioning coach does? In college football and basketball, some of the best strength and conditioning coaches make over a $1 million/yr. They are especially busy off-season. And does it matter? Most these atheletes consume more than bodybuilders because they are doing a lot more training that requires cardio. I don't know any bodybuilders that requires more that 5,000 calories on average. They never do cardio which requires more calories than strength training. Do you actually believe that football lineman have not spent a lifetime trying to gain weight. And they typically weigh more and require more calories than bodybuilders.
@@_mark_3814 Bodybuilding requires bulks and CUTS. They average out. Bodybuilders are typically the leanest athletes. It's whatevers required by the sport. People don't have to play sports. Do you think athletes that require strength, like football, basketball, baseball, etc, don't bulk and CUT. What do do you think the strength and conditioning coach does? In college football and basketball, some of the best strength and conditioning coaches make over a $1 million/yr. They are especially busy off-season. And does it matter? Most these atheletes consume more than bodybuilders because they are doing a lot more training that requires cardio. I don't know any bodybuilders that requires more that 5,000 calories on average. They never do cardio which requires more calories than strength training. Football lineman have spent a lifetime trying to gain weight. And they typically weigh more and require more calories than bodybuilders.
vegan trail, mountain and ultra runner here, I would burn 500-600 calories per hour for an easy trail run. I want to be in nature and in wild locations and keep fit at the same time, are my excess calories which are in line with bodybuilders not allowed either? On the weekend I ran a 50km ultra marathon in a national park and burned 4000+ calories from that alone, was my adventure justified? Very weird angle to come from by Cosmic Skeptic.
That was my thought! Lots of activities (cycling, running, swimming etc) use a lot of calories unnecessarily, just as bodybuilding does. Doing the things we love to do isn’t essential to stay alive, but it’s what gives life meaning. Giving up all such things is not practicable.
So based on that logic Obese vegans are also unethical? Did we forget that they also go through a cut that reduces calories? Overall fitness is unethical now?
Exact quote from alex's video: "All it shows us is that the conversation can't be one of a strict principle that unnecessary suffering is always wrong." He emphasizes that condemning vegan bodybuilding is implausible. It really seems like he's just trying to more closely examine the underlying principles of veganism, not justify eating animals.
Alex couldn't find vegan foods in France, I doubt he will be able to find non-factory fHarmed meat, dairy, & eggs when he's the next time in France, either. 🙃
I've never fully understood if Alex is actually "utilitarian", his brand of ethics has always left me baffled as to if he actually knows what he's talking about. But I followed and liked him for a while because I enjoyed listening to his take on various topics but like many other people he's become insufferable and gone off the rails especially platforming badfaith right wing ghouls.
Not to be that guy, but what Alex says isnt some argument against vegans. Its an argument against the logic some vegans use (which he used), which was animal suffering is bad when unecessary. Hes saying that argument is not good because its hard to uphold. He is not arguing that fundamentally veganism is flawed because you mess up sometimes. It was more of him saying he was wrong in his thinking.
Not all protein is equal in terms of crop deaths. Some high protein soy drinks for instance will go a lot further than tons of cabbage, both in terms of total protein and reducing deaths in the fields. So in that sense, body builders that are focusing on high-protein foods might actually have a lower overall footprint, even just focusing on "crop deaths" only.
we should cease any activity beyond what's necessary for survival, the only time we're allowed to move is when we shop for food, eat or work to afford food
I used to watch him *because* he was a vegan atheist. I’m fully expecting him to change his stance on religion now 🙄 I can’t wrap my head around the idea of eating more food than strictly necessary for survival is anti-vegan… it’s absurd. If we lived in a world where everyone ate only plants and we were simultaneously going through an epidemic of some variety where there was a proper food shortage despite best honest efforts, then, and only then, could I see that eating extra would be bad. Side note: I used to live across from a soy field. The number of crop deaths are minimal. My proof? The humongous number of critters who would take up residence in my garage during the time when the combine harvester was being used. There was also a forest “buffer” around the field where the critters would go as well. Nearly the instant that the combine was done, the critters would go back to their fields and I wouldn’t see them again until the next harvest. After I figured out what happened, I made sure that there wasn’t anything I cared about in the garage and I left out wheat berries and oat groats and the occasional clamshell of almost bad berries to keep them out of the main house. Even feeding them, they still wanted to live in the field after the combine was done.
There is no way to be certain about atheism tbh. Agnosticism is the best one can do, and is the true scientific approach, because science is based on the simultaneous and equal balance of skepticism _and_ open mindedness. A true scientist tries their best to not have strong/certain beliefs about anything.
@@justinw1765 I mean, I’m open to the idea that there could theoretically be *something* out there that we would consider a deity, but there’s a flat zero chance that the Christian god of the bible exists as written.
The Plum Island facility has moved to Kansas ... the meat belt. I live on Long Island home of the Montauk Monster (maybe a Plum Island accident?), but for real, in order to work on the island workers were not allowed to have pets, yet the facility has moved to the MEAT BELT. This is another Corona waiting to happen.
This is currently my favorite youtube channel C: in a way I admire Mic, and not only on the vegan aspect: his way to tackle the different topics, his manners, analysis and even humor are great n.n
I think it'd make sense to ask for some sort of comparative analysis, where we look at the deaths occurring on a given cropland and contrast it to deaths that would've happened if that cropland was just a forest. It isn't really clear to me that there are more deaths in the cropland scenario.
I can't even imagine how many other people a successful vegan bodybuilder turns vegan simply by existing and occasionally talking about his diet. So from a consequentialist standpoint, vegan bodybuilders are amazing: they save many, many more animals than their extra calories could ever cause.
Something else that wasn't addressed by cosmic skeptic is that body builders also cut. Meaning there will be times when they don't eat much at all to maintain body shape. There is also no evidence of extra crop fields being grown for Vegan body builders. We still don't know if ploughing a field kills more animals than it would if we didn't plough that field, so I always find the crop death argument a moot point anyway.
❤ I agree with you. I feel that their are too many 'content creators' making their living on being judgemental and contrary. Why not just find what you are positively passionate about and speak that truth. To focus all attention on why others are wrong about this or that has got to be a very sad existence. I have opinions on things as well. Am I on platforms to broadcast it to the world? No. I have a life and if I am struggling with an issue I mostly keep it to myself until I an over it. I only share it later if I feel it can actually help someone else positively to move through their struggle.
Alex's brain has gone septic with all the right wing ghouls he's talking to. I'm going to guess it's another one of those absolutely bat-shit insane conspiracy theories.
Real quick, pointform style: - giving extra money to farmers that harvest lentils, beans, soy, etc, especially if organic, increases economy for that product and helps shift the balance of food corporate power - body building, especially vegan, is very healthy and can allow people to live a better old age, possibly not needing all sorts of drugs, machines, plastics, devices, hospital trips, etc. which could sum up to saving many lives, lower pollution, etc. - why attack people that you have no measurable proof that what they do is unethical (unnecessary harm and deaths), when there are fully measurable, many studies and scientific inquiries and obviousness for the unethical reality at grass-fed, organic, "small-scale" farms? Seems dumb, it's like getting mad at a kid for peeing on the neighbour's lawn all while the neighbour beats his wife and we dont say anything - compared with the average person, a body builder who is super focused on the quality and amount of food they eat, they may end up eating less than a normal person just because they are so exact: they go through phases of cutting and phases of bulking, and the bulk foods may often be straight up whole foods, whereas the average person just eats willy nilly, impulsively, processed stuff (vegan or otherwise). This is an argument against nearly ever modern human in a developed society. Who is counting there calories to be just what they need to live? That is just ridiculous
Off topic, Unsolicited request: Please consider making a "Vegan for the Arteries" t-shirt. With the heart and veins graphic over the heart area of the t-shirt. I love the concept, but i don't wear leggings. Not a demand, just a sincere benevolent request.🙏
Will do! I just had legging up there to show that it was more than shirts but I realized now they took the forefront as other products were phased out. THANKS!
@@MictheVegan Awesome! I didn't notice the notes at the bottom of the leggings page regarding the tentative sales of a t-shirt version, so i do appreciate you possibly selling a shirt version in the future.👏👍
Could you clarify what you mean by "muscle sparring"? Not trolling, I'm a flabby pescetarian and I've gradually been losing excess weight and I want to begin building muscle then go full vegan.
Why does he limit this argument of burning excess calories to body building? The same logic can apply to taking long walks or simply playing chess. Both activities involve burn excess calories.
1:12 so, and when said top-down regulation happens, will he then learn how to cook, or does he not deem himself "down" enough for it to apply to him as well... 🤔🤔
in what way had he sunk before? Stopping veganism might have actually been the first ghing I disagree with him after following his videos and podcasts for quite a while now
Unfortunately people don't realize what would happen if people tried to be vegan for multiple generations, their whole bloodline would fall apart. It cannot be done, it's simply impossible and no culture has ever done it in a healthy manner. We need some animal based nutrition, it's not even optional like many vegans thinks, they just really don't understand what would happen over 30+ years and then onto multiple generations, it would be a nightmare. It's also cruelty to force a child to abstain from animal based foods. Animals live good lives on pastures and are killed in the least painful way possible.
@jonahwhale9047 The vast majority of people that go vegan for decades have serious issues, that's been seen in so many that have basically been forced to go back to incorporating some animal based items and they always feel better. However, some have the genetics to last a bit longer. And this is one generation, plus many that many claim to be vegan their whole lives may not be telling the truth, but that's neither here nor there. The majority of people that go vegan for 30+ years will have some serious deficiencies unless they supplement ALL the time, and even then there are many issues that arise. It's inevitable. This isn't even my point though, I'm talking about through several generations. People don't realize how much this affects brain health, endocrine health and fertility. There are studies backing it up. However, now we live in a time where there are tons and tons of supplements, but it still would cause massive problems because it's not a natural diet at all. People crave and need to eat some animal based foods, it's hardwired into us anyone will tell you and any kid will show you. It's only the artificial learned behaviors of extreme depravity. It's also not even as good for the environment as touted at all there are some serious issues.
@jonahwhale9047 There is a ton of data actually with deficiencies and issues with different aspects of physiology. Very easy to pull up I've read plenty of them myself. You must really not have a good idea of what the human body and brain need. I've studied nutrition and herbal medicine in and out of school honestly and sincerely. I've read studies for years and years. It's not a proper human diet that's for sure. A child will show issues when raised this way and it would be a disaster to have this as a diet for multiple generations. You just don't realize it. It is absolutely known that you can't get many nutrients from plants alone, this is an established fact that can't be disputed.
Mic I would love to know your take on microplastics and veganism. I often feel conflicted about buying plastic/petroleum based clothing for say a winter jacket because of the microplastics in them. Rather than say a wool coat that I find a a vintage store.
If vegan bodybuilders would eat 20x as many calories as nonvegan bodybuilders, they would maybe be in the same range with land, water and resources used. A vegan bodybuilder is probably still 15x more efficient as a regular nonvegan in water, land and resources used. And when it comes in animals killed\animal cruelty,\crop deaths its not even in the same universe, since 77% of all agricultural land is used up by animal agriculture.
Another point many miss is that body builders often don't consume more calories than the average person who isn't counting their calories. Alex struggled to get enough calories, but a lot of people have the opposite problem. And body builders aren't bulking all of the time, they have cutting and maintenance phased which can often last longer.
Mic I made a Cronometer account today and it says that my folic intake is was too high, over three times what you should have. THere is a red line next to the folate meter which is scary. According to Cronometer the two main problems with my meals today are the 538 grams of romaine lettuce and five ounces of brussels sprouts. Should i eat less Romaine lettuce and brussels sprouts? That cant be correct can it?
@jonahwhale9047 according to Cronometer i ate LESS than one head, .83 of one head. 520 grams is what i entered. Brus/spts 7 oz as well as Dr Greger recommended 2 tbls each of wheat germ and nutritional yeast. Those are the big four Folate entries and my entire food listing for today is only 1501 calories.
@jonahwhale9047 My salad is the meal and it takes a long time to eat. I follow Dr Greger, his approach is evidence backed nutrition , thats what i go for , evidence gathered over decades.
It's true that all forms of overconsumption are unethical, vegan or not. That includes bodybuilding, even non-vegan (probably more so the non-vegan bodybuilding). It also includes people who run a lot of marathons, do huge tours on bikes or swim a lot, it even includes sports such as football, basketball, etc. There's supporting evidence showing that these things do get harmful past a certain point directly to the people doing it too, such as bodybuilders still having higher rates of cardiovascular issues, football players and martial artists suffering a lot of concussions and getting serious issues from that, runners and bikers getting joint issues, etc. Also, don't we have an intellectual responsibility to act against the harm we know we have influence over? Crop deaths aren't the first priority but eventually, down the line, if we could reduce tons of animal farming and reduce animal exploitation, wouldn't we want to minimize crop deaths if we could? Growing higher calorically yielding foods in less space, and as mentioned in the video, choosing growth with less deaths overall?
Utilitarian calculations used to refute the utilitarianism that utilitarian Cosmic Septic confused as veganism for years and the reason why he's no longer a plant-based utilitarian... And the vegan argument?
When there is no demand for crops for human consumption, they may still be grown for biofuel or animal feed. Additionally, it's uncertain whether it's ideal for animals to be wild in the first place. I won't commit to an action where it's not even clear if there are any benefits.
Mic stop gesturing so much in your videos, you're burning unnecessary calories, I counted 0.00001 animal death's worth of calories during this video alone. Actually thinking about it maybe it is more ethical for us vegans not to exist at all... or just chop our legs off. We can get really good prosthetics nowadays and think of all the calorie savings! On a serious note I noticed how in this video he is now framing the ethics of veganism against factory farming, tacitly condoning all the animal suffering in "higher welfare" food systems. Whether that is conscious or not who knows but interesting to see the change happening now he consumes animal products.
Here is an argument I just thought about that I never heard about harvest death : the potential harvest death are very different from animal farming death. Those animal death go back to nature. They feed wild scavengers and/or go back to the earth.
Genuine question, why is everyone here interpreting this as Alex defending meat-eating? That's not the way he frames it in his video, he's talking about a specific formulation of an argument for veganism, not the merits of veganism itself. That kind of rigor is a good thing for any vegan advocate, you want to make sure that the arguments you put forward are as strong as possible.
Just want to add, I'm quite annoyed that Mic has not only edited out the context (Alex was responding to someone who asked if there were any arguments surrounding veganism that he'd changed his mind about) but also insisted to his viewers that Alex's real intentions were to guilt-trip vegans. Get angry at Alex for quitting veganism, that's fine. If you think the arguments he makes here are bad, that's also fine. I don't think think Mic is being deliberately dishonest here, I just don't think he paid enough attention and hasn't engaged in good faith.
I've been fully plant based for eight years, I work out reguarly and I am natty, I'll never be huge, but I am strong and toned and I would take that any day over being huge and unhealthy. It is honestly so easy to maintain good health and fitness without being a massive calorie consuming bucket. I honestly don't know how so many struggle with sticking to a plant based diet.
He is living proof that going to a prestigious university and getting a degree doesn't make someone "smart". No matter what argument anyone uses, veganism is still the best solution to their argument because the alternative to veganism is to eat meat, which means intentionally contributing to the un-aliving of more animals.
Well put Mike ☯️ Was once a huge fan of Alex, now all I see is a coward trying to justify what he knows is wrong by clutching at straws and resorting to arrogant pedantics.
Watching this video back, I should have addressed the idea that not vegan bodybuilding would be a practicable and possible act for reducing harm to animals in theory but it still isn't compelling. I don't think the net effect of deleting vegan bodybuilders is 'reduced harm' since every vegan bodybuilder is a paradigm shifter at this point. Further, the expectation that vegans have to count calories to be ethical is another example of an extraneous mental burden that would make veganism more difficult and hypothetically create a barrier to entry to saving MORE animals with more vegans if it is expected. Sorry, no dessert since it is extra calories!
Bottom line: This "needless" harm caused by extra vegan calories is simply not a persuasive call for vegans to accept the direct, intentional eating of animals or feel like they are somehow failing their own ethics (or whatever his point was here). This has helped me realize that while the definition of veganism is a core tenet of mine, there are other logical or strategic principles that dictate where I think the line for vegan behavior would be best drawn.
Also I ironically and randomly stumbled upon this article about how to be vegan as an Oxford student! cherwell.org/2024/04/28/veganism-oxford-student/
I agree with Alex somewhat and am vegan, however Alex says it isn't unethical because it doesn't feel unethical to be a body builder, I don't agree with that at all. Alex is ethically cowardly and doesn't want to commit to any ideas of what is ethical, he uses talk to distract people from calling out his hypocrisy.
Vegan body building is an oxymoron unless you carry extra weight as a back up to protect against ill health periods or if you need the strength for important work.
The bottom line is most "vegans" probably aren't vegan
I would caution against a utilitarian approach to vegan bodybuilders being a current paradigm shifter. I think the question of whether minimizing harm to animals is either a deontological rule, or a utilitarian calculation; the latter of which had serious implications.
Hypothetically, if there exists some highly charismatic person that strongly ties being permitted to eat meat with converting people to veganism; would that justify his continued meat consumption? If you don't let him eat meat, he will stop helping the vegan cause. But if you do, in this hypothetical scenario, he will absolutely succeed in convincing 10 other person to become vegan, for each day he can eat meat. A utilitarian approach might say "yes" to this (and the paradigm shifting vegan bodybuilder), but would that be right?
Mic, please read my comment on this subject.
I understand that Alex is an idiot (as far as veganism is concerned anyways) and didn't make very compelling arguments on the subject (I don't think he actually gets it himself)
Thank you for at least saying vegans should be talking about it tho
PIaque forms eating animals. Plant-based/vegans don’t have pIaque. ✅♥️😬🐒🐵🦧🦍👱🏼♂️👩🏽😉. Buddhist monks most of them are vegan ✅♥️💪😬😉.
Vegan bodybuilding to a certain point can be a path to be healthier and live longer. I'm trying to put on muscle with wait lifting and calisthenics. I'm fifty years old and I'm feeling better than ever. My back pain has disappeared I feel stronger and have more energy. I also eat a little more than I would if I wasn't working out but I follow a vegan diet. I don't think that in a world where so many people overeat on an omnivore diet I should restrict my eating. As a vegan I already have a better diet than average. I don't let perfect get in the way of better. 🥦
Alex O’Connor starting to display the cognitive dissonance of regular meat eaters, it seems that it comes with the diet. They try hard to justify their practices.
I offer🍗to the 2😺😸boys within my care. God forbid that ever I adopt the simplistic (heathen) religion of V.. but you do you.🙏
@@aroomofmIOwn 👍The😺😸follow me everywhere, so I must be doing something right. They do make me larf.. & larf.. & larf some more.
Sleep is another matter but we manage.😴
I wish. Cognitive dissonance is the pain from holding opposing viewpoints, it's a response of a healthy mind that forces it to adapt more logical and coherent viewpoints, it's the same as pain you feel when you put your hand to fire that forces you to pull it back. It's normal and it's healthy. The issue is LACK of cognitive dissonance.
@@jprice_ Yes. It's frustrating how most people use this term wrongly. Using it when they really should just say inconsistent or hypocritical.
@@jprice_ But in this case they know the pain is causing when they put their hand on fire and they still don't take action to pull it back, that's cognitive dissonance. If they take action they don't have to suffer from cognitive dissonance.
He’s reaching so far he might pull a muscle.
He would have to have a muscle to pull for that.
“A weak muscle from his vegan days” 🤣
Oh
It won’t be necessary ive pulled about 16 muscles in the time of being vegan might as well call me cosmic skeptic bc f that kid Alex o Connor 😂
😂
The longer I am vegan the more I realize that a lot of these so called arguments that these meat eaters make are just coping mechanisms for their diet choices. It's hard to even take them seriously. Bravo to you Mic for having the patience to address these things. It's just goofy to me at this point.
100% 🤣🤣🤣
Yep, copium.
Philosophers talking about ethics is coping mechanism? Vegans talking about ethics while being so hostile towards philosophical discourses makes them hard to take seriously.
Yes. This is exactly how I feel. I used to get annoyed by non-vegans but I've honestly just lost patience. They think that they're being original and intelligent with their arguments. They have no idea that they're all spouting the exact same re-hashed nonsense. At this point, Its just boring to listen to
I don't eat meat.
but the guy is right.
why do vegan cultists hate logic ?
because you pumped up your ego and think you're amazing and they suck. When some one points out you can still improve you attack them visciously because you think your fake ego image is under attack.
tis a sad state of affairs.
most of you vegans aren't even trying to switch to public transport - instead you glorify hotel culture (which is so terrible for environment) all over social media
"I quit being vegan....so let me claim some vegan group like bodybuilders are immoral"
Sounds like he's bothered by his guilt of eating animals.
No, he's a philosopher and it's totally normal to discuss and question an ethical principle.
@@alfanscholz8663Nah, it's a stupid waste of time.
@@user-iy7lk7ig4h Then don't engage. And maybe don't ever talk about ethics, good and bad, what's moral and immoral again. Since you're so hostile towards philosophy.
@@alfanscholz8663 I'll do what I damn well please, especially not worshipping "philosophy" like an intellectual light weight.
he didnt claim that vegan bodybuiders are immoral, did you watch the video he clarified that like a million times.
20 years a vegan. I am a non-competitive bodybuilder. 5'10" 217lbs abs, jacked. 54 years old. Tempeh, pea protein, and high protein extra firm tofu are my favorite sources of amino acids. I love being a poster boy antithesis to the scrawny, weak vegan stereotype. I wish I had more reach in order to help crush these stupid stereotypes that confound masculinity, strength, and virility with eating animals, but I'm old, and a bit too lazy to try to build some kind of platform to spread a message. Love your videos. Have subscribed for years.
Just the fact you took the time to share your story briefly has already helped at least a dozen people 🙏 thank you.
10 YEARS HERE , KUDOS MY FRIEND , IF UTUBE DOESN'T SHA DOW BA N THIS COMMENT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@rdpmackie We should chat sometime, maybe you give me some useful pointers. I'm Skype same username as here, send me a contact request.
youre scrawny compared to me,I dont lift weights or have a special diet I just eat loads of meat, Im 6 foot 4 and ripped
Please don’t delete me Mic! 😫
😂😂😂
Who would dare?
🤣
I WOULD NEVER lol
It's not a terrible thought, but it's pretty much like saying to people "If you are vegan you should limit your walking in the woods" or other absurdities.
As Mic pointed out, Alex's video probably ended up causing more animal deaths than a vegan bodybuilder's video promoting veganism.
It's not a terrible thought but applying any kind of coherent ethics systems that we use on a daily bases makes it seem ridiculous within few seconds.
It’s quite clear he’s been getting his nonsensical arguments against veganism/for not being vegan from his friend ‘Rationality Rules’. He’s just selfish. He never knew what he was talking about regarding ethics with animals - he was only concerned about “factory farming, factory farming, factory farming”.
All of this.
He doesn't have arguments against it as he's for vegansim. He wants as many people as possible to be Vegan. He was just answering a question about his approach to the philosophy (reducing harm/death as much as possible vs. as much as practicable while living the life you want etc.)
@@jamesadam4415 Yes, that is true. His point was still weak. Alex understands breaking a point down to the very fundamentals. He's arguing if you can't cause absolutely zero harm, don't try at all. Which is madness. And is he still supporting factory farms??
@@uncoiledfish2561 watch his whole video, he directly responds to this exact point.
Both are always repeating the same bullshit argument. So annoying and repetitive. Alex is such a loser that he can't even make up arguments of his own, has to recycle or outright copy bad arguments from 'Rationality Rules' guy
Is he saying this nonsense because he's non-vegan, or is it cause he's non-muscled?
Yes
I always found Paul Joseph Watson's obsession with "soyboys" ridiculously ironic ... I suspect Alex has something of the "sensitive 19th century thinker dying slowly of tuberculosis" going on ...
This whole discussion could be avoided if we just made clear that veganism is not about reducing "unnecessary" suffering/harm, etc. Veganism is the principle that humans should live without *exploiting* other animals. That is, rejecting the *use* of other animals for human ends. A vegan that eats extra calories may cause some extra harm, and so does a vegan that walks more than the minimum needed, but that doesn't mean that such harm was a result of *using* those animals for our own benefit, so there's no contradiction with being vegan.
@@andrewsmith6761 I'm not changing anything. Veganism is about ending animal exploitation, nothing else.
Best comment so far!
From the perspective of the animal your intentions or moral purity doesn't matter and it just wants the suffering to end
@@mithunbalaji8199 yeah, but my point is that those arguments (the ones that Alex presented) are a misrepresentation of veganism. Veganism is like the abolitionist principle for human slavery. Does abolitionism tackled EVERY human suffering and death? No, it was focused on ending the master-slave relation between humans. That doesn't mean that an abolitionist can't care for those other deaths, but the fact that they exist are not a burden of the abolitionism movement and, moreover, they don't discredit it. Veganism is exactly the same, just change humans with other animals. The fact that there is suffering and death outside animal exploitation doesn't discredit veganism, as Alex pathetically attempted to do so.
@@vicenteocqueteau4112 Polarization within the vegan movement between suffering focussed consequentialist camp and deontologist/abolitionist camp
Bro eats meat and is trying to shame bodybuilders cause they might cause harm to small animals…. 😂
You missed the point, it’s entirely philosophical and doesn’t address his argument at all. The logic is this: veganism claims to “reduce all suffering as is practically possible”. Body building causes more suffering than is necessary to live a happy and healthy life. Therefore it isn’t vegan to be a bodybuilder. It’s a small point, sure. But one could argue eating one meal of meat a year would be a small issue. It’s still wrong. I think the only solution is to indeed agree with him and say body building is unethical, marginally so of course.
@@joshyman221He’s using a utilitarian argument and when you use utility (consequences) you have to consider all variables. As Mic said in the video, if we got rid of all vegan bodybuilders it is very likely that fewer people would go vegan, particularly men who are interested in growing muscle. Bodybuilders are possibly some of the most effective vegan role models, there’s a reason why The Game Changers did so well. You have to consider all implications, not just the actual action but everything derived from it as well. When you do you realize that those extra calories are not at all unnecessary (not to mention that bodybuilders also cut, they don’t just bulk).
@@joshyman221 It’s too abstract to be some kind of an argument. Eating one meal of meat per year is a systemic issue and not an individual one, as we need an entire slaughterhouse industry to make it possible. Vegan bodybuilding or even vegan obesity requires no such thing.
@@hugomarquez3189once again you missed the point. I absolutely agree in the current world, being a vegan bodybuilder is a far better way to live to convince others to go vegan and show its healthy. But imagine a purely vegan world (what a dream). In that case, I don’t see how it can’t be the case that purposefully (important caveat) eating in excess of your means on a regular basis isn’t immoral. You’re causing more harm to others for something completely trivial (being a bodybuilder).
@@UTF016what if you go out and kill that animal yourself? Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s wrong. But the same logic for why that’s wrong has to make vegan bodybuilder wrong (if we lived in a vegan world).
Vegan bodybuilding is unethical but living nonvegan is totally fine!?! 🤣
Alex lost it completely! xD
@@nicolao.dos.santosyeah, but his educated accent makes my brain try to agree with him
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Yes, a real cosmic skeptik.
Alex, after describing the vegan bodybuilding hypothetical, literally says word for word "Now, it doesn't follow from this that therefore eating animals is fine."
If you're going to disagree with him, more power to you. But at least make the most minute effort to understand the viewpoint that you're disagreeing with.
My tax bracket, i am considered working class poor. This June 1st, will be my 9th year since going vegan.
I understand how to work my limited
food budget into the framework of
veganism.
High profile people, allegely educated people like "cosmic beast", who have total access to thee best vegan food, clothing, and lifestyle options, yet they
make the choice to turn away from veganism, declaring it's "impractical" is the definition of willful, self absorbed, ego.
The fact that said beast is splitting
hairs to make vegan bodybuilders
as a negative, is tellng as it is pathetic.
👏🏻💚👏🏻💚
@@stacyhuss9454 ✌😊
Nailed it.
@@user-iy7lk7ig4h ☺👍
Here were my comments to Alex at the time:
Regarding vegan bodybuilding, I think “causing unnecessary suffering” is just inherently undefinable and a slippery slope.
Alex is definitely right: Vegan body-builders consume unnecessary calories for muscle growth. Also, vegans do things like ordering take-out and delivery, which includes packaging that inflicts (albeit, indirectly) unnecessary harm (and suffering) on animals and their habitats. At times, vegans shop non-locally, again indirectly harming animals through transportation pollution. At times, vegans drink caloric beverages and caloric snacks based on taste pleasure, not pure caloric maintenance needs. Also, is going for a run “necessary”, if you’re going to have to consume even more vegan calories than you otherwise would have that day? Hell, should you have walked “unnecessarily”? That little stroll cost 90 calories. The analysis quickly slips into absurdity.
Vegans, and no one else, can ever meet a strict standard of “cause no unnecessary harm”. “Necessary” requires listing the multitude of human physical and mental states and then asking is each one “necessary”? Is a physically and mentally “healthy” body even necessary? Or is pursuing one’s health kind of a “luxury”, taxed with the health of the planet? Maybe?
But also, I don’t think vegans ever strictly mean, “only do exactly what is necessary.” Nutritionists and doctors might (and do) argue that everyone should be adding muscle to their bodies to fend off sarcopenia (muscle loss) in old age. We should be adding to our muscle “retirement plan”, they say. More broadly, they also argue for daily cardio and weight-resistance exercises for physical and mental health benefits. Both of these physical activities, again, require more than “maintenance calories”. They are medically prescribed, but they aren’t absolutely “required” (aka unnecessary) for our daily survival. I think what many vegans are actually trying to say is simply this: “It’s often hard to see the harm I’m causing animals with my daily behavior, but one sure way to know I’ve harmed an animal is if it’s currently in my mouth. So I’m gonna try and do things that don’t involve that.” Of course there’s more. But we (everyone) exhaust ourselves with guilt over personal action. We’re stuck in a seeming contradiction where we’re told constantly that we’re insignificant and our actions don’t matter, but also, every single thing we buy and consume is killing the planet, the future, and somebody, somewhere, right f-ing now, you a-hole! So it makes sense for both vegans and non-vegans to just want to throw up their hands. But anything, everything, you do to try to learn how the things we buy are produced, and the gradual movement away from obviously terrible means of production and toward not-so-obviously terrible ones is a goal I think we can all agree on. It’s exhausting, yes, but I think, if you just find people in your life who are behaving in ways you admire, just stick closer to them. Let them encourage you. Encouragement nourishes the exhausted.
Now I'm worried that typing this comment is making me not vegan any more. I don't need to type this comment, and my fingers are burning extra calories by doing it. How many baby deer am I killing by typing this???? Uh oh, I typed more question marks than I needed to. Is that another baby deer dead? Because of me? I'm going to stop now. I'll just be lying here trying to not move any more than absolutely necessary to remain barely alive. That way I can be vegan again. Sorry to all of my fellow vegans for not being vegan while I sit up and type this. Oops, I just killed another deer!
Hahaha love your comment
We ALL talk some bollocks at times, it's just a pity some of us can't resist the urge to record it and put it online when we do.
Vegan recitational athlete here. I like to run, swim and bike. I play some team sports. I definitely eat more calories than I would eat if I just laid in bed all day. I have no ethical problems with body builders. This is a ridiculous argument.
I really don't like this guy. He abuses his intellect to manipulate himself and his audience, into believing what he wants to be the truth.
Intellect?
@@user-iy7lk7ig4h he's extraordinarily intelligent
Yup.
He's got nothing on Sam Harris, Sadhguru, Neil deGrasse Tyson, Eckhart Tolle and Jordan Peterson.
It's amazing how otherwise-intelligent people will manipulate the thought process when it comes to actually inconveniencing their ego-fking-tistical selves.
@@terryjackson9395 I would add Richard Dawkins in there, but I don't know if I should blame his stroke for his recent mental decline, or if he's just showing who he always was.
Alex is pathetic. I’m embarrassed for him.
In the game of life, there are two paths one can take to climb the ladder of success: self-improvement or the degradation of others. Alex has chosen the latter, seeking validation by tearing others down. The once steadfast commitment to veganism now serves as a curse, haunting his conscience with the unrelenting weight of moral inadequacy.
Rather than exploring alternative solutions to his health issues while being sympathetic to veganism, he has selfishly chosen to embrace a lifestyle that directly contradicts his supposed values. This shift in behavior, to make these weak arguments against vegan bodybuilding, signifies a deeper flaw in his character, one that is driven by the need to maintain a facade of moral superiority at any cost. Alex's inability to confront his own shortcomings has led him down a path of deception and manipulation. His desire to tear others down is a desperate attempt to prop up his own ego, setting him on a sad trajectory.
He is still good. Everybody has flaws.
@@InspiriumESOO "ego is a hell of a drug"
@@__-tz6xxHis argument is specious and dumb. Probably a bit of a narcissist
@@InspiriumESOO
Your reply and it's intent is so perfectly composed, and stated. 👏Bravo.
He said he doesn't know anything about gut health. He is not willing to read up about it and try to figure out what is causing his problems instead just blaming plants and going post-vegan.
But he's the smart one...
Alex really be showing that a philosophy degree means absolutely nothing if you don’t know how to mediate all of the abstract disconnected ramblings of people who want desperately for the world to be purely logical and mathematical.
you're so right. these type of silly arguments are so common in advanced philosophy classes and he's getting a bit disconnected from things that are actually tangible.
Alex is so embarrassing and ridiculous. Not even worth responding to at this point.
He is smart, but honestly I think he is way more concerned with his image and career than any ethical principle. The arc he has been on lately with talking to right wingers and barely pushing back on any of their actual ethical and political prescriptions, which have a WAY more important impact on the real world, only to question them on their stance of free will or theology.
I’ve studied philosophy myself, and even I see that the real world implications of questions like that really aren’t interesting beyond what would almost be intellectual masturbation. What matters is us, beings, and how we actually treat each other based on the most accurate knowledge we have of the material and social world.
He has ditched animal and human rights advocacy in favour of being a palatable legitimizer for pretentious status quo defenders, basically…
Unfortunately, we have to respond to and criticize ridiculous messages like this cause many nonvegans believe it and want to believe it and spread it.
These arguments are so convoluted. I don't think it's a stretch to assume that he's just trying to justify has own actions. It must be so stressful to be at odds with your own sense of morality in this way. I wish him the best
I eat animal products with a clear conscience.. but you're welcome to your assessment.. for whatever it's worth.🤓
@@Combative_Dissident are you Alex O'Connor? He's been a prolific advocate against animal cruelty for more than 14 years then started eating them anyway.
He's still arguing for welfare and reducing consumption even though his actions don't align with his morals.
Your user name instantly says you aren't in this to learn or make an actual contribution for or against this specific topic. Your cringe-lord attempt didn't even have a topic or or make a point. I'd suggest you educate yourself before jumping into a conversation. Or better yet just let the adults talk here
If you watch the full clip he’s just bringing up a philosophical idea and explicitly says you can’t just make the conclusion from it that it’s okay to eat meat
That has to be the most insane argument I have ever heard, especially coming from someone who is not currently vegan
It's true - every step I take causes squirrels and rabbits to flee for a mile radius. When I do pushups, there are earthquakes in China. And I just keep going. 800 pounds, 900 pounds, tough sh*t little man.
Hey, what's up Chuck Norris?!
Alex is quite intelligent yet every argument he’s made against veganism, other than he just found it hard, is devoid of logic
It's not his argument. He's such a loser that he can't even make up arguments of his own; he has to recycle ♻️ or outright copy "rationality rules" guy's arguments against veganism.
It's not his argument. He's such a loser that he can't even come up with his own arguments; he has to recycle ♻️ or outright copy the 'Rationality Rules' guy's arguments against veganism.
I think the thing that makes this line of reasoning the most uncomfortable for me is also that bodybuilders aren't the only ones who eat more than they need to survive. people who are overweight eat more as well and weight problems are very difficult to manage
Excellent point. Dude has a jealosy issue with body builders.
That is what is referred to as a false analogy.
Comparing a person who has an eating disorder to someone that chooses to eat excess calories, and thus kill animals needlessly, to gain muscles they don't need is not the same thing.
One is a choice the other (in many or even most cases) is not.
Perfect analogy, although not all can understand it. It certainly is not a false analogy.
There is choice and lack of choice in both situations.
@@langreeves6419 This is where vegans lose their minds and start sounding liek carnists with their carnist book of logic... a perfect analogy? It isn't even remotely the same.
1 has a choice not to pick up the weights, the other does not have a choice not to overeat. Even the OP points it out.
If veganism is about finding excuses to kill animals for your own pleasure by using people with ED's ... well done. Mission accomplished.
@@TrappedInTheMeatrix(neither are choices lmao)
Alex is not a vegan nor is he a bodybuilder. He should stay in his lane.
I'd agree is bro had a lane to vegan with 😂
@@aisbcatering831 lol good one
10:34 💯💯 the standards that non vegans put on vegans is ridiculous!!
Another Great video Mic! 🎤
Yup. Personally I think philosophers are ethically duty-bound to stay quiet until they are at least 70 years old and thought things through properly.
My approach has shifted from an indiviual boycott approach to a top-down legislation and industry-reform type approach,
so until it's illegal, I will keep my slaves
for... *practical reasons*
Yep 🙂
Also, what percentage of the Vegan community are body builders??? It's like .0001% of the population...lol
There's a lot I don't understand about others, but in my 21 years without meat, I've realized that meat is doing different things for others than it is for me. What those things are, I'm not 100% sure. Once I saw that I could not just do without it, but do better, I immediately stopped and never went back once. My wife experienced the same benefits as me, but went back for 15 years. Why? I have no idea, but there's something that's holding people to meat - something beyond culture and tradition.
Now, on top of that, some small-minded people aren't content to just fail at something and try again or move on. They have to tear down others who are succeeding. That's why veganism and plant-based eating are the objects of so much hostility, in my estimation. Those that live that way are proof that humans can easily and comfortably live on vegetation, which is a constant reminder of the unnecessary violence that those who do not are engaged in
Why is Alex singling out bodybuilders? Anyone who exercises, is an athlete, or has a physical job requires more calories. Michael Phelps ate 10,000 calories/day.
@@FranchiseCityOnline I believe Alex realizes that people can not change their height, so that argument would not work.
I think he's using body builders because they're the more extreme end of the spectrum.
He was referring to bulking where you are not simply eating more calories to maintain but you are actively trying to go past your maintenance calories
@@_mark_3814 Bodybuilding requires bulks and CUTS. They average out. Bodybuilders are typically the leanest athletes. It's whatevers required by the sport. People don't have to play sports. Do you think athletes that require strength, like football, basketball, baseball, etc, don't bulk and CUT. What do do you think the strength and conditioning coach does? In college football and basketball, some of the best strength and conditioning coaches make over a $1 million/yr. They are especially busy off-season. And does it matter? Most these atheletes consume more than bodybuilders because they are doing a lot more training that requires cardio. I don't know any bodybuilders that requires more that 5,000 calories on average. They never do cardio which requires more calories than strength training. Do you actually believe that football lineman have not spent a lifetime trying to gain weight. And they typically weigh more and require more calories than bodybuilders.
@@_mark_3814 Bodybuilding requires bulks and CUTS. They average out. Bodybuilders are typically the leanest athletes. It's whatevers required by the sport. People don't have to play sports. Do you think athletes that require strength, like football, basketball, baseball, etc, don't bulk and CUT. What do do you think the strength and conditioning coach does? In college football and basketball, some of the best strength and conditioning coaches make over a $1 million/yr. They are especially busy off-season. And does it matter? Most these atheletes consume more than bodybuilders because they are doing a lot more training that requires cardio. I don't know any bodybuilders that requires more that 5,000 calories on average. They never do cardio which requires more calories than strength training. Football lineman have spent a lifetime trying to gain weight. And they typically weigh more and require more calories than bodybuilders.
vegan trail, mountain and ultra runner here, I would burn 500-600 calories per hour for an easy trail run. I want to be in nature and in wild locations and keep fit at the same time, are my excess calories which are in line with bodybuilders not allowed either?
On the weekend I ran a 50km ultra marathon in a national park and burned 4000+ calories from that alone, was my adventure justified?
Very weird angle to come from by Cosmic Skeptic.
That was my thought! Lots of activities (cycling, running, swimming etc) use a lot of calories unnecessarily, just as bodybuilding does. Doing the things we love to do isn’t essential to stay alive, but it’s what gives life meaning. Giving up all such things is not practicable.
Re: Baby Deer death - young deer can be killed while hiding in early season alfalfa or Timothy grass which are both cut and used for livestock.
Why does Alex even claim to be against factory farming?
Alex is cosplaying as a skeptic
Alex is superficially deep 😂
Alex is trying to impress Mikhaila Peterson
I lift 💪
I am not trying to be "OCD about becoming the perfect vegan being"...if thats ok
So based on that logic Obese vegans are also unethical? Did we forget that they also go through a cut that reduces calories? Overall fitness is unethical now?
Living is unethical. Living more is more unethical.
Exact quote from alex's video: "All it shows us is that the conversation can't be one of a strict principle that unnecessary suffering is always wrong." He emphasizes that condemning vegan bodybuilding is implausible. It really seems like he's just trying to more closely examine the underlying principles of veganism, not justify eating animals.
Alex couldn't find vegan foods in France, I doubt he will be able to find non-factory fHarmed meat, dairy, & eggs when he's the next time in France, either. 🙃
There are no vegetables in France, just cheese and cigarettes.
I don't know Alex, but I know ethics. Utilitarianism brain rot on full display here. I'll bet Alex is one of those "Effective Altruists," too.
I've never fully understood if Alex is actually "utilitarian", his brand of ethics has always left me baffled as to if he actually knows what he's talking about. But I followed and liked him for a while because I enjoyed listening to his take on various topics but like many other people he's become insufferable and gone off the rails especially platforming badfaith right wing ghouls.
Its called "pseduo intellectualism" and Alex is a passive agressive persona
Perhaps he would be less passive if he exercised a bit more.
😂
are you projecting?
@@KK-lg8uz
Thanks for asking, No I'm not projecting, hope that clarifies .
@Patrick-d1j8f says the guy who's not aware that we know what humans ate millions of years ago
Not to be that guy, but what Alex says isnt some argument against vegans. Its an argument against the logic some vegans use (which he used), which was animal suffering is bad when unecessary. Hes saying that argument is not good because its hard to uphold. He is not arguing that fundamentally veganism is flawed because you mess up sometimes. It was more of him saying he was wrong in his thinking.
Imagine thinking you’re smart and not being able to figure out how to eat plants.
Cosmic Septic.
I went with "Comic Septic"
Alex “Poop my Pants” O’colon
Not all protein is equal in terms of crop deaths. Some high protein soy drinks for instance will go a lot further than tons of cabbage, both in terms of total protein and reducing deaths in the fields.
So in that sense, body builders that are focusing on high-protein foods might actually have a lower overall footprint, even just focusing on "crop deaths" only.
we should cease any activity beyond what's necessary for survival, the only time we're allowed to move is when we shop for food, eat or work to afford food
Or pay taxes...
I used to watch him *because* he was a vegan atheist. I’m fully expecting him to change his stance on religion now 🙄
I can’t wrap my head around the idea of eating more food than strictly necessary for survival is anti-vegan… it’s absurd. If we lived in a world where everyone ate only plants and we were simultaneously going through an epidemic of some variety where there was a proper food shortage despite best honest efforts, then, and only then, could I see that eating extra would be bad.
Side note: I used to live across from a soy field. The number of crop deaths are minimal. My proof? The humongous number of critters who would take up residence in my garage during the time when the combine harvester was being used. There was also a forest “buffer” around the field where the critters would go as well. Nearly the instant that the combine was done, the critters would go back to their fields and I wouldn’t see them again until the next harvest.
After I figured out what happened, I made sure that there wasn’t anything I cared about in the garage and I left out wheat berries and oat groats and the occasional clamshell of almost bad berries to keep them out of the main house.
Even feeding them, they still wanted to live in the field after the combine was done.
Atheisms corny
There is no way to be certain about atheism tbh. Agnosticism is the best one can do, and is the true scientific approach, because science is based on the simultaneous and equal balance of skepticism _and_ open mindedness. A true scientist tries their best to not have strong/certain beliefs about anything.
God made plants for us to eat. Cry about it.
@@user-iy7lk7ig4h who are you replying to?
@@justinw1765 I mean, I’m open to the idea that there could theoretically be *something* out there that we would consider a deity, but there’s a flat zero chance that the Christian god of the bible exists as written.
I’d like Mic the Vegan tackle the upcoming pandemic of H5N1 and the responsibility of all meat eaters complicit responsibility in all of it.
The Plum Island facility has moved to Kansas ... the meat belt. I live on Long Island home of the Montauk Monster (maybe a Plum Island accident?), but for real, in order to work on the island workers were not allowed to have pets, yet the facility has moved to the MEAT BELT. This is another Corona waiting to happen.
What a weird way to cope with his own non muscular and out of shape body...
This is currently my favorite youtube channel C: in a way I admire Mic, and not only on the vegan aspect: his way to tackle the different topics, his manners, analysis and even humor are great n.n
Yes! Mic is the best!💚
There is a difference between intentionally and unintentionally unaliving
You can say that to make your self feel comfortable, but so called 'moral purity' doesn't matter from the animal's perspective.
His existence is unethical.
I think it'd make sense to ask for some sort of comparative analysis, where we look at the deaths occurring on a given cropland and contrast it to deaths that would've happened if that cropland was just a forest. It isn't really clear to me that there are more deaths in the cropland scenario.
0:36 don't inhale me bro!! 😂
That one came courtesy of my new editor, Sandra. THANKS SANDRA!
Here I was thinking Vegan Gains had gone too hard on him.
I can't even imagine how many other people a successful vegan bodybuilder turns vegan simply by existing and occasionally talking about his diet.
So from a consequentialist standpoint, vegan bodybuilders are amazing: they save many, many more animals than their extra calories could ever cause.
Something else that wasn't addressed by cosmic skeptic is that body builders also cut. Meaning there will be times when they don't eat much at all to maintain body shape. There is also no evidence of extra crop fields being grown for Vegan body builders. We still don't know if ploughing a field kills more animals than it would if we didn't plough that field, so I always find the crop death argument a moot point anyway.
Alex is not half as intelligent as I thought he was.
Shawn Baker also argued that. That you can't say you are "doing the best you can" if you are a sportsman eating twice the amount for survival.
❤ I agree with you. I feel that their are too many 'content creators' making their living on being judgemental and contrary. Why not just find what you are positively passionate about and speak that truth. To focus all attention on why others are wrong about this or that has got to be a very sad existence. I have opinions on things as well. Am I on platforms to broadcast it to the world? No. I have a life and if I am struggling with an issue I mostly keep it to myself until I an over it. I only share it later if I feel it can actually help someone else positively to move through their struggle.
The answer is extremely simple: in real life we don't use utilitarian ethics which are ridiculous, we use deontology.
It doesn't sound ridiculous
My dad is a tillage farmer and I have no idea what all this crop death nonsense is about. Are they talking about insects or something?!
Alex's brain has gone septic with all the right wing ghouls he's talking to. I'm going to guess it's another one of those absolutely bat-shit insane conspiracy theories.
@@AislingDonohoe Finally someone said it! My mother is a farmer too, and I also struggle to understand where all this nonsense is coming from.
@marcomoreno6748 I think you're dead right.
Real quick, pointform style:
- giving extra money to farmers that harvest lentils, beans, soy, etc, especially if organic, increases economy for that product and helps shift the balance of food corporate power
- body building, especially vegan, is very healthy and can allow people to live a better old age, possibly not needing all sorts of drugs, machines, plastics, devices, hospital trips, etc. which could sum up to saving many lives, lower pollution, etc.
- why attack people that you have no measurable proof that what they do is unethical (unnecessary harm and deaths), when there are fully measurable, many studies and scientific inquiries and obviousness for the unethical reality at grass-fed, organic, "small-scale" farms? Seems dumb, it's like getting mad at a kid for peeing on the neighbour's lawn all while the neighbour beats his wife and we dont say anything
- compared with the average person, a body builder who is super focused on the quality and amount of food they eat, they may end up eating less than a normal person just because they are so exact: they go through phases of cutting and phases of bulking, and the bulk foods may often be straight up whole foods, whereas the average person just eats willy nilly, impulsively, processed stuff (vegan or otherwise). This is an argument against nearly ever modern human in a developed society. Who is counting there calories to be just what they need to live? That is just ridiculous
Off topic,
Unsolicited request:
Please consider making a "Vegan for the Arteries" t-shirt. With the heart and veins graphic over the heart area of the t-shirt.
I love the concept, but i don't wear leggings.
Not a demand, just a sincere benevolent request.🙏
Will do! I just had legging up there to show that it was more than shirts but I realized now they took the forefront as other products were phased out. THANKS!
@@MictheVegan Awesome!
I didn't notice the notes at the bottom of
the leggings page regarding the tentative
sales of a t-shirt version, so i do appreciate
you possibly selling a shirt version in the
future.👏👍
lol they don’t even need an excess of calories for the first 18 months of training, carbs are muscle sparring
Could you clarify what you mean by "muscle sparring"? Not trolling, I'm a flabby pescetarian and I've gradually been losing excess weight and I want to begin building muscle then go full vegan.
Why does he limit this argument of burning excess calories to body building? The same logic can apply to taking long walks or simply playing chess. Both activities involve burn excess calories.
Alex has kind of fallen off in general tbh.
1:12 so, and when said top-down regulation happens, will he then learn how to cook, or does he not deem himself "down" enough for it to apply to him as well... 🤔🤔
Could Cosmic Septic aka Alex O Colon sink any lower? Yes, the answer was a resounding YES :\ 🤢🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮
in what way had he sunk before?
Stopping veganism might have actually been the first ghing I disagree with him after following his videos and podcasts for quite a while now
Unfortunately people don't realize what would happen if people tried to be vegan for multiple generations, their whole bloodline would fall apart. It cannot be done, it's simply impossible and no culture has ever done it in a healthy manner. We need some animal based nutrition, it's not even optional like many vegans thinks, they just really don't understand what would happen over 30+ years and then onto multiple generations, it would be a nightmare. It's also cruelty to force a child to abstain from animal based foods. Animals live good lives on pastures and are killed in the least painful way possible.
@jonahwhale9047 The vast majority of people that go vegan for decades have serious issues, that's been seen in so many that have basically been forced to go back to incorporating some animal based items and they always feel better. However, some have the genetics to last a bit longer. And this is one generation, plus many that many claim to be vegan their whole lives may not be telling the truth, but that's neither here nor there. The majority of people that go vegan for 30+ years will have some serious deficiencies unless they supplement ALL the time, and even then there are many issues that arise. It's inevitable. This isn't even my point though, I'm talking about through several generations. People don't realize how much this affects brain health, endocrine health and fertility. There are studies backing it up. However, now we live in a time where there are tons and tons of supplements, but it still would cause massive problems because it's not a natural diet at all. People crave and need to eat some animal based foods, it's hardwired into us anyone will tell you and any kid will show you. It's only the artificial learned behaviors of extreme depravity. It's also not even as good for the environment as touted at all there are some serious issues.
@jonahwhale9047 There is a ton of data actually with deficiencies and issues with different aspects of physiology. Very easy to pull up I've read plenty of them myself. You must really not have a good idea of what the human body and brain need. I've studied nutrition and herbal medicine in and out of school honestly and sincerely. I've read studies for years and years. It's not a proper human diet that's for sure. A child will show issues when raised this way and it would be a disaster to have this as a diet for multiple generations. You just don't realize it. It is absolutely known that you can't get many nutrients from plants alone, this is an established fact that can't be disputed.
Mic I would love to know your take on microplastics and veganism.
I often feel conflicted about buying plastic/petroleum based clothing for say a winter jacket because of the microplastics in them. Rather than say a wool coat that I find a a vintage store.
My brother turned vegan after we discovered vegan bodybuilders
Most vegans aren’t even bodybuilders!
Great job Mic
Thank you for responding to Alex´s video so that we could watch your video instead of his! = )
Has anyone ever had more of a "smells his own farts" look than cosmicLOOKATMYBIGBRAINskeptic?
If vegan bodybuilders would eat 20x as many calories as nonvegan bodybuilders, they would maybe be in the same range with land, water and resources used. A vegan bodybuilder is probably still 15x more efficient as a regular nonvegan in water, land and resources used. And when it comes in animals killed\animal cruelty,\crop deaths its not even in the same universe, since 77% of all agricultural land is used up by animal agriculture.
Isn't eating as little as we can impracticable?
Dude you're one of the funniest guys on TH-cam
Another point many miss is that body builders often don't consume more calories than the average person who isn't counting their calories. Alex struggled to get enough calories, but a lot of people have the opposite problem. And body builders aren't bulking all of the time, they have cutting and maintenance phased which can often last longer.
Mic I made a Cronometer account today and it says that my folic intake is was too high, over three times what you should have. THere is a red line next to the folate meter which is scary. According to Cronometer the two main problems with my meals today are the 538 grams of romaine lettuce and five ounces of brussels sprouts. Should i eat less Romaine lettuce and brussels sprouts? That cant be correct can it?
@jonahwhale9047 according to Cronometer i ate LESS than one head, .83 of one head. 520 grams is what i entered. Brus/spts 7 oz as well as Dr Greger recommended 2 tbls each of wheat germ and nutritional yeast. Those are the big four Folate entries and my entire food listing for today is only 1501 calories.
@jonahwhale9047 My salad is the meal and it takes a long time to eat. I follow Dr Greger, his approach is evidence backed nutrition , thats what i go for , evidence gathered over decades.
"the idea of crop deaths is brought up a lot and is memed upon by the vegan community" yeah you could've stopped there lol we're gonna meme this too
So what’s his opinion on bodybuilders that are cutting in a caloric deficit?
Being human is inherently unethical and so we might as well be as evil as possible (/sarcasm if that wasn’t apparent)
It's true that all forms of overconsumption are unethical, vegan or not. That includes bodybuilding, even non-vegan (probably more so the non-vegan bodybuilding). It also includes people who run a lot of marathons, do huge tours on bikes or swim a lot, it even includes sports such as football, basketball, etc. There's supporting evidence showing that these things do get harmful past a certain point directly to the people doing it too, such as bodybuilders still having higher rates of cardiovascular issues, football players and martial artists suffering a lot of concussions and getting serious issues from that, runners and bikers getting joint issues, etc.
Also, don't we have an intellectual responsibility to act against the harm we know we have influence over? Crop deaths aren't the first priority but eventually, down the line, if we could reduce tons of animal farming and reduce animal exploitation, wouldn't we want to minimize crop deaths if we could? Growing higher calorically yielding foods in less space, and as mentioned in the video, choosing growth with less deaths overall?
9:25 My ethics is not seeing animals as commodities for us to use.
Utilitarian calculations used to refute the utilitarianism that utilitarian Cosmic Septic confused as veganism for years and the reason why he's no longer a plant-based utilitarian...
And the vegan argument?
Ok so in other words, Alex is full blown anti-vegan.
When there is no demand for crops for human consumption, they may still be grown for biofuel or animal feed. Additionally, it's uncertain whether it's ideal for animals to be wild in the first place. I won't commit to an action where it's not even clear if there are any benefits.
Mic stop gesturing so much in your videos, you're burning unnecessary calories, I counted 0.00001 animal death's worth of calories during this video alone. Actually thinking about it maybe it is more ethical for us vegans not to exist at all... or just chop our legs off. We can get really good prosthetics nowadays and think of all the calorie savings!
On a serious note I noticed how in this video he is now framing the ethics of veganism against factory farming, tacitly condoning all the animal suffering in "higher welfare" food systems. Whether that is conscious or not who knows but interesting to see the change happening now he consumes animal products.
Here is an argument I just thought about that I never heard about harvest death : the potential harvest death are very different from animal farming death. Those animal death go back to nature. They feed wild scavengers and/or go back to the earth.
Genuine question, why is everyone here interpreting this as Alex defending meat-eating? That's not the way he frames it in his video, he's talking about a specific formulation of an argument for veganism, not the merits of veganism itself. That kind of rigor is a good thing for any vegan advocate, you want to make sure that the arguments you put forward are as strong as possible.
Just want to add, I'm quite annoyed that Mic has not only edited out the context (Alex was responding to someone who asked if there were any arguments surrounding veganism that he'd changed his mind about) but also insisted to his viewers that Alex's real intentions were to guilt-trip vegans.
Get angry at Alex for quitting veganism, that's fine. If you think the arguments he makes here are bad, that's also fine. I don't think think Mic is being deliberately dishonest here, I just don't think he paid enough attention and hasn't engaged in good faith.
I've been fully plant based for eight years, I work out reguarly and I am natty, I'll never be huge, but I am strong and toned and I would take that any day over being huge and unhealthy. It is honestly so easy to maintain good health and fitness without being a massive calorie consuming bucket. I honestly don't know how so many struggle with sticking to a plant based diet.
He is living proof that going to a prestigious university and getting a degree doesn't make someone "smart". No matter what argument anyone uses, veganism is still the best solution to their argument because the alternative to veganism is to eat meat, which means intentionally contributing to the un-aliving of more animals.
Its just more purity vegan nonsense where a meat-eating person tells vegans they aren't doing it right. I get your initial feelings.
Well put Mike ☯️ Was once a huge fan of Alex, now all I see is a coward trying to justify what he knows is wrong by clutching at straws and resorting to arrogant pedantics.