Genuinely cannot fathom how some people don't see the huge difference of modern Zelda to the traditional Zelda. Aonuma himself said multiple times that they broke every convention. So yes, people are allowed to dislike the new format. Traditional 3D Zelda is something that no other franchise has been able to replicate and with modern Zelda ditching that format too we are now out of a massively popular game style in the industry. You are allowed to prefer one over the other but there is a reason so many people are speaking out about traditional Zelda.
You can dislike the modern zelda, but calling modern zelda bad, it's killing the franchise, and soulless is not saying you dislike it but outright insulting the hard work that went into making the artistic vision work. For example, I don't care for dark souls or any of the modern fromsoft games, but I dont go online saying any that they all suck and are soulless. If i have praised the games for what they have accomplished. If you want to dislike zelda, go ahead. But if you want to go online and use inflammatory language about your dislike of it, expect people to do the same about your opinion.
I do see the huge difference, so what? I like what Nintendo is doing, i'm open to experience new things and i understand for some people that's hard to let go, so really it just depends on the person. And to be honest, if you think abt it this "freedom" Nintendo is offering in these new games are actually more alike to the first original Zelda game, not the linear stories some of the later zelda games had (that are also crazy good). We just gotta understand that Nintendo's nature IS reforming the industry, IS reinventing its franchises, IS offering new experiences in gameplay without losing the core. And that has a risk ofc, some people are gonna like it some people won't, but i'd rather have Nintendo take that risk
@@agente3347 I agree, I just hope, like Linkalot said toward the end, to see a really nice mash-up of the two styles. Link Between Worlds had a bit of linearity, but after the first few dungeons, threw you into Lorule and let you choose your path from there. I def like the openness of new Zelda, but I will admit there's some slight disappointment knowing I can reach almost everything right off the bat and complete any puzzle I want after I get all the abilities. It felt soooo satisfying seeing a place early game and reaching it at a later point. I also know it might be a tad hard to do, but I do wish for a more coherent story in the future. God forbid u get the wrong memory during TOTK and get quickly spoiled on the fact Zelda's a dragon😭I still have faith in the series, and yeah I def nope nintendo takes the non-extreme criticism to heart and does something wonderful from it!
The even crazier thing is people trying to gaslight us into thinking the hate on BotW/TotK is just the "Zelda Cycle" and that "it's normal for the series to make huge changes." Which is just incorrect. This new style is just lazy. It's so much easier to design a game that's a sandbox, as opposed to a game that actually has a path of progression. That's why Aonuma said he enjoyed developing BotW more than any other Zelda; He had more freedom than ever and didn't have to worry about story or progression holding him back from implementing whatever he wanted. It's infuriating that this series I love is just being driven into the ground, and that all the people who have only ever played BotW/TotK want to say that that style of Zelda somehow is superior to the actual style of Zelda.
I noticed there wasn’t a lot of dissatisfaction videos when breath of the wild ruled the roost for 6+ years it wasn’t until tears of the kingdom that these type of videos started spawning.
Botw was fresh. I think that people though that ToTk was going to bring back mechanics of the old Zelda games ( like dungeons and specific items to solve them)
I think the over-exposure of the botw style of gameplay has made a ton of ppl sour on the new formula and miss the old one. I love botw while still preferring the old zelda formula, it’s just that for a while botw was fresh and a new concept, now with most modern open worlds being based on the botw style, totk felt sorely lacking in originality (doesn’t help that it’s extremely similar to botw too and a bit more of a chore to get through in my opinion), souring a lot of people’s perception.
The new game was fine and trying something new can be great but I think for the most part people didn't expect it to become the new standard. They need to strike a balance ideally.
Because those videos didn't get pushed as much. Also, many people thought BotW was going to be a one-time thing. Many people were dissatisfied with it (just look at r/truezelda), but the fact TotK was the exact same song and dance is what has emboldened people to making their opinions more clearly known.
Skyward Sword is my favorite game in the series. I think that was the peak of great dungeons, great items, distinct colorful characters, and an engaging story.
The reason why The Legend of Zelda isn't as fun for me anymore is the same for me with Castlevania: they got rid of the fun part. I love the rpg Castlevania games. But with Lords of shadow the rpg formula disappeared and i lost interest. Until Bloodstained came out. In Zelda i tried to get into Breath of the wild. I even beat it, but it isn't as fun anymore. What did they take? The closed off areas, where you need abilities and items to pass is what kept me in. The sense of progression Metroidvanias have, the slowly opening up of the world always felt so good. I don't want an open world where i don't know where to go. I want an open world that is closed at the beginning and the opening is rewarded.
Fun to you. Everyone likes and experiences games differently and like different things about them. You can't say that taking away what you personally enjoy about games is taking the fun out of games.
There could be a happy medium that can become an excellent formula: Have Dungeons that can be played at any order, but that grant their own items necessary to progress the story. Have weapons that don’t break, but can detract damage points the more you use them. Have the Master Sword as vital and UNBREAKABLE. And please, have Link heal up by eating or drinking while in motion, not at the pause menu (have a dedicated items button).
I think what kills me about BOTW/TOTK is the absolute insane opinions by new fans they've brought about. There's this whole argument that Zelda stories "have always been bad", "dungeons don't matter THAT much" etc etc....like have y'all even HEARD about why people like literally any other Zelda game? I'm not saying they have to ENJOY the older games more, but these "hot takes" are just....horrible. If they don't want to play the older games, again, totally fine, but it's mental that ppl are just proudly sitting here and blowing off everything that made the series what it was up until this era. I want to see the series grow and change but it's starting to feel like every other dang open world game with the Zelda title just smacked on it.
My biggest gripe with new Zelda is how every dungeon looks the same. Why does every shrine have to look the same? Why does every dungeon/divine beast need to look the same? Even Skyrim had more variety. At least in that game you had Nordic Tombs, Dwemer Tombs, Caverns, Castles, Ice Mountains, Mines, Imperial Settlements etc. In BOTW all you get is: technological steampunk ruin
I was extremely excited when i first found the depths because i was fully expecting giant Eldritch horrors to be down there. Needless to say i was very disappointed with the depths. Also i hate that they said pirates were at lurein village and i was thinking it could be simular the majora mask pirates, but no just generic old bokoblins.
It would've been so cool to see a band of Hylians who still hadn't fully recovered from the chaos turn into a pirate gang!! So many missed opportunities fr. Hell, get some Zora and Rito peeps in on the gang too. Would've been sick af
The biggest problem for me is 2 things the story and the zonai, speaking of the zonai I swear someone at nintendo watched theory videos about the zonai botw on TH-cam and said why don't we make them a major focus in totk but as boring and uninstesting they don't care about their own lore they proved that and nobody recognizes us from the last game this is not a sequel it is a reboot and rewrite of botw.
Nintendo doesn't care about fan speculation on the lore which in case of the Zonai really only amounts to "There was an ancient civilization we don't know much about that existed", anything outside of that is pure fan speculation.
Like I get that the Zonai aren't ACTUALLY the first "rulers of Hyrule" or however they worded it in TOTK, but their lore is still so weird to me lol. (tbf same with the Oocca tho tf was that about haha) they keep making up these "ancestors to Hyrule" and then just? Kinda ignoring every implication and backstory that race should come with. Clearly Hylians/humans existed with the Oocca, same as the Zonai. I wish nintendo would flesh out both races more. Maybe in whatever new Zelda we'll see, we can see origin stories of the Zonai. They ARE a cool race, that game just left so much to be desired and so far the only explanation we get is "lol this is like thousands upon thousands of years into the future from the most recent game timeline wise, idk guess urself idiots"
The part about a static story state especially resonated with me. The fact that even after Link learns where Zelda is in totk yet doesn’t tell anyone is so stupid and de-immerses me. A linear story wouldn’t have that problem. Also the fact that totk was DELAYED and it’s 70$ is hard to square with the copy paste world. It feels like the devs put all their work into ultra hand and nothing else.
The problem isn't Aonuma, but Fujibayashi. His approach to making games is to have a rigid and unyielding philosophy. He directed Skyward Sword where the philosophy was "Everything is designed as a dungeon." Then his next two games were "Everything is designed as open ended non-linear elements." As long as he is the director, you will not get a "hybrid" Zelda game.
As much as I like Breath and Tears, Wind Waker still remains my favourite Zelda game. I've always had this idea where in order to find a middle ground, Zelda could carry on with being "open-air" while Nintendo uses some of their dormant IP that fit under the action adventure genre like StarTropics or Mysterious Murasame Castle to continue the "traditional" structure, that way we still get games that have the charm of the Ocarina era while not having to specifically be Zelda to avoid a Paper Mario situation. I guess it depends on if long-time fans are okay with playing as other characters that aren't Link but yeah.
Agreed wholeheartedly. Great games? Sure! But there's no magic anymore. No real feeling of progress or worst, no feeling of urgency. There's no real story, nothing to find out about it, so I really don't care what's gonna happen next. Also, adquiring new specialized weapons to progress is lost, which defined the wonderful experience
I didn't expect zelda totk to go this way with fans but I knew this would happen back in 2017 when playing botw knowing that zelda 1 was going to simplify the series
I so agree, the focus on player freedom above all else is such a detriment to the game and the dungeons. If you ask me, there were two games that perfectly balanced linearity and freedom, and that was Ocarina of time, and a Link between Worlds. Now I'm not saying oot is the best game, my favorite is also skyward sword (Skyward sword fans unite!) but OoT and ALBW did it spectacularly. Yes, you had to complete the first four dungeons in that order, but because you did that and have the experience, later dungeons can play with and expect you to know the mechanics of those four, which is something you can't really do if you can do everything out of order. Good video!
Another one that balances linearity and freedom, but is not talked about much is Zelda 1. There is a lot of freedom in how you explore the world and complete the dungeons, but many of the dungeons require an item from a previous dungeons and the harder dungeons are in places that are harder to reach/find so you still end up doing the dungeons in a mostly ascending order which gives the game a difficulty curve and feeling of progression. Side note. As it so happens OoT and ALBW are my favorite Zelda games and I like Skyward Sword too.
@@robertgamer3112 Noted! I actually haven't finished Zelda 1 yet (long story, but I named myself zelda without realizing that puts you in a harder game mode and only learned that after I gave up) but it's good to see how the balance has been there since the beginning!
Reminds me of a poem I wrote a long time ago... Breath of the Wild A lonely awakening, a disembodied voice, Proceed from here, then make your choice. An empty world, sad ruined lands, Have fallen victim to Ganon's hands. Scattered survivors live out their days, Living their lives in a meaningless haze. Your memory is empty, you clutch at the light, But what you remember is only her spite. Your failures haunt you, unsure you can last, But defeating Ganon won't undo the past. Your weapons keep breaking, just like your resolve, What will seeking vengeance solve? Hyrule is no longer the land of the hero, In the eyes of the people, you're just a zero. The quest doesn't matter, there is no reward, Who cares if you find the Master Sword? Any fool could beat Ganon, if they cared enough. Is believing it's your destiny just a big bluff? Does it profit you to go here or go there? It really doesn't matter if you go anywhere. A vast, endless landscape to search for the seeds, Fulfilling half-forgotten wanderlust needs. The memories and shadows of your earlier time, Leave you longing for a brighter day and a better rhyme.
Many who can’t comprehend why most didn’t complain when botw came out was precisely because it is extremely good even as an entire change of the formula. With totk being very identical to botw and a ton of other open worlds being heavily inspired by it, the over exposure of the genre and the lack of genuinely good dungeon/puzzle designs has soured on many. I adore botw while still preferring the old formula way more but even then totk was a hard sell for me as soon as it got announced and was very justified in my apprehension when getting to actually play it. I tried multiple times so hard but I just could not get into it. It’s a testament to how too much of a good thing can overstay its welcome. It’s completely understandable how totk has sort of been like a wake up call for many that this is genuinely not a good direction to fully take the series. I think another open world Zelda COULD work, it just shouldn’t be just another botw again.
11:40 Meanwhile, classic Zelda plays you a jingle for simply shooting a button. Dear god man I can't take your criticism seriously if you're gonna be this petty.
I think one of the down sides to new Zelda is they focus too much on game play and not enough on story. Some of my favorite video game series like uncharted or metal gear make you feel like you are playing an interactive movie with a great story and ending. Nintendo games to me were more about game play with not much of a story. Mario was a great platformer with fun gameplay. Metroid was a great game about exploration and making your main character stronger with new power to take on more powerful bosses. I am not a big zelda fan but according to most of the zelda videos zelda was about dungeon crawling and solving interesting puzzles so you can get new powers that will help you save the princess. Zelda botw and totk were games with amazing open worlds with lots to explore but the stories weren't great compared to the jrpg games I played growing up. If zelda had a compelling story like a jrpg combined with the open world and gameplay they could have been an amazing games. Zelda could have the open world and the traditional dungeons but if it didn't have a great story it wouldn't be the best game it could be as far as I am conserned. Botw and Totk were fun with great game play but the final fantasy games I put hundreds of hours into growing up had great stories with some plot twist and satisfying endings. I wish some of my favorite nintendo games had better stories. I will still put lots of hours platforming in a mario game or colleting everything in a metroid or open world game link zelda but there is something different about playing cinematic game with great cut scenes and a great ending. A perfect game would have great game play and story.
For me, Wind Waker was a great title walking between both the larger world mechanics we've seen with BOTW & TOTK, and the traditional dungeon linearity tied to world events and story that came to be a larger staple for the series for a long while. Breath of the wild wasn't my jam because it wasn't a game whose type of adventure was made for me. I love worlds that truly hone down on a more focused and direct story, or at the very least environmental story telling that can be monumental to someone talking about its vision. I think it's okay to fall in love with a game whose focus is more on the aimless adventurer just setting off into the sunset, making due with what they got and winging it however they choose. I think it's also okay to yearn for a similar design with more nuanced and meaningful story elements. Some people want to recount their adventures as watching a sun rise on a beautiful valley, and others want to talk about the sinister deeds of a villain and the world at large.
Yeah, no. tWW had a prototype large word, sure, but it's also where the stifling handholding of the main quest came to the fore in the main series. If the story had actually benefitted from that linearity it would have been much more excusable, but it didn't. The only time the story does something interesting with the specific Plot Coupon order is the return to Outset Island. Twilight Princess has similarly ass-backwards approach. Midna and King of Red Lions might as well whip out the script and tell you it says Link wil go there next so the plot can happen. If you want to see linear adventure structure done right, the only time that has happened in the main series is in the first half of SS: Zelda went to the dungeon, you're chasing her, ergo you'll go to the dungeon.
You get an automatic like for acknowledging and appreciating not just Ghirahim but also Zant :þ Ahem, but yes, good video overall. Definitely some points I disagree with like botw having almost no/flat story, I think the story, while very scattered around and 'optional' was very good. I also tend to consider the lead up to the divine beasts as extensions of the dungeons themselves, so in that way they're sorta different but, yeah, nowhere near as good as traditional dungeons... I don't know.... botw is one of my fav Zelda games along with Twilight Princess, which many consider too linear so my two favorite games are sort of the opposite end of the 'freedom spectrum'. I also adore Skyward Sword (mostly because Ghirahim exists tbh) but there were more aspects of it I didn't like such as the repeated imprisoned fights so it's not quite up there with the other two in absolute favorites, the linearity was never my biggest problem there though. All this to say: I don't really know why linearity is considered so bad, it means the game can tell a focused strong story and develop the difficulty of content properly. Sure, too much linearity with no freedom is bad but I'd say the other extreme is the same, you need a balance of both and I hope future Zelda games can find that balance! I write this as i've been obsessively playing Tears of the Kingdom lately and having so much fun with it... while still thinking about how much better it COULD have been...
I love Zelda. But nothing crushed my spirit harder than BotW, and TotK hit me over the head with a shovel. I agree with all of what you said, but would've used much stronger language if it was me writing the script. The two latest entries are empty sandboxes, carried by certain mechanics that get old after not much time. It's ridiculous to me how it's fine to spend most of development time on a silly mechanic rather than everything else. TotK has so much fluff content within it, it's shameless. Addison Signs, Korok Seeds, Bubbul Gems, etc. So much fluff just to pad the game out and try to further justify the 70 dollar price tag. Never have I been more excited to finish a game than Tears, it became such a chore. The Sky is nothing but copy-and-pasted puzzles all over the place with no life whatsoever, the Depths are ridiculously empty and dull to explore, and the overworld looks even uglier with all the rocks strewn everywhere. It infuriates me that Aonuma believes this is somehow "superior" to the old formula, and that he "can't understand those who prefer the older games."
Well that happens wheb you change the formula of a franchise that has more than 2 decades. I remember that back in the day , a group of the resident evil fanbase was angry with resident evil 4, but now is the standard of the remakes
Classic Zelda has always been more similar to metroidvania in its game design. Except instead of one huge sprawling dungeon with a limited overworld, there's a big overworld with many dungeons, and a larger focus on narrative. It's been like that since the original, with Link to the Past refining the formula. To say that the modern Zeldas are improvements over the old formula directly is asinine. They're just different games at this point. I'd be totally fine with the modern Zeldas being an ultra strong third pillar alongside the other 3d games and 2d games, but there's no need for this to be Zelda's only future. 2D metroid coexists alongside prime just fine, so why can't this new style exist alongside the old, even if you have to have some other dev team manage it. I'm open to new ideas and concepts, but there's no need to throw out what worked before completely, especially when you're not giving anything to substitute.
How can you claim "Zelda lost its soul" when Zelda 1, Zelda II, A Link to the Past, and Link's Awakening all came out before the birth of 3D Zelda with Ocarina of Time? Claiming 2D Zelda and 3D Zelda are fundamentally different doesn't change the fact the series started in 1986 and had 4 games before Ocarina came out in 1998. 3D Zelda is the absolute minority of games in the series. We are up to 20+ Zelda games and only 7 (when including BotW/TotK) are 3D. It's very odd to effectively suggest Zelda only gained a "soul" in 1998 and that the 2D games don't really count.
Well, what makes you think the 2D games are going to stick with the original formula rather than being more BoTW-like? I know I'm hoping we get more 2D Zelda with the old ALttP formula or something, but I'm afraid the old formula may really be dead. And really OoT was in many ways just 3D ALttP anyway. The last Zelda game I enjoyed was A Link Between Worlds, unless you count the Link's Awakening remake. Ultimately, that Echoes of Wisdom game will be the answer to the question one way or the other.
people saying story was not a strong suit in zelda games is complete bs, yes they weren't the main focus but games like MM prove that the story is not always just an after thought, even games like Link's Awakening is a good example, TP, saying Zelda doesn't have good stories is just a bs excuse that people make when they try to defend BOTW's lack luster story.
I wished, I could argue against your issues, because I genuinely had fun playing TotK. But still, I liked BotW better. I feel like many things that made playing BotW great, have been removed from TotK, just to appeal a bit more to Players, who crave higher difficulty. Yes, BotW was exceedingly easy in the late game, but to me, having everything at the ready without much struggle, was part of its appeal. And at the same time they removed the Master Mode, which may not have been the best means, but at least one way to please, what those - and I’m sorry for the exaggeration- Dark Souls fans wanted. Difficulty. And it’s not that I don’t like a challenge. After all, I bit my teeth into the challenge of fighting Lynels and overcame it, which is part of the fun. But quite a few things that were there in abundance if you know where to look, are just gone in BotW. Heck, I didn’t care for using game breaking glitches in BotW, but in TotK, it’s just part of even playing the game. I started a letsplay of that game and I swore not to be among those who start one but not finishing it. And now, TotK has simply lost me. In fact, so much so, that I don’t know if I will have it in me to finish it sometime. You are right, TotK lacks diversity. Yes, it is a lot like DLC, though it changes it’s gameplay too much to be classified as such. It definitely failed to be more linear and feature genuine challenge in the dungeons, where you’d expect it and no this doesn’t contradict my complaints of difficulty, as the lack of difficulty in being resourceful in BotW is different from the lack of difficulty in challenging puzzles. I agree, I also wished that future Zelda games did become more linear, for the sake of having more challenging dungeons. I would wish for more diversity in enemies and items alike. But to be honest, I’m somewhat pessimistic about it. And by the way: I also loved Skyward Sword HD like crazy despite being so unsure about it from the get go, given my troubled past with the Zelda series.
The "soul" of Zelda is not about traditional elements like dungeon designs but something more vague, like a unique combination of puzzles and action that creates a feeling of adventure. Something that can be reinterpreted in many ways. Nintendo's ability to adapt this to an open-world format in BOTW is genius. When you populate your open world, you tend to put some "stuff" in it and sometimes they don't matter, like in GTA where you just go to the icon or other time it's just what we call a "random fight". Zelda BOTW by following the "soul" of Zelda, invented "random puzzles" dispersed on the whole map ( koroks, shrine, sign guy etc... ) and it shows a deep understanding of what the series mean. Something not everyone could have pulled off! In an alternate world, some people might say, "No! I don't like those puny battles, I prefer the whole game to be about very big bosses!" For me, it would just mean the normal fight gameplay lacks interest, but it doesn't mean it's bad to have battles that aren't bosses. The real discussion is about what we prefer in past interpretations of that soul in the older games that manifest themselves through "traditions." Now, like the video says, there is a lot of different stuff, and the video is right about most of them, but it may forget problems from the older games, not just Skyward Sword. Every single one of them felt like a repetition of Zelda 3. Even Ocarina of Time feels like a remake of Zelda 3 at times with its structure (first three artifacts followed by a lot of different dungeons all about finding a new object that will be used against the boss ) and dungeon design! For me, the series had become Zelda 3, Zelda 3 GB but only the second phase ( and better ), Zelda 3 3D, Zelda 3 3D but only the first phase and with a timer, Zelda 3 3D on the ocean, Zelda 3D 2, and Zelda 3 3D with gestures for over 10 years. This repetition in the old games led to a loss of that "adventure" feeling since you knew what to expect even if some aspect like the complexity or the story are better. You could say that that repetition was there for a good reason: creating a unique dungeon and boss every time is time-consuming for Nintendo, which always had to find ways to reuse the same maps to extend game length. The longer the game, the more it is shared with others, and the more it can sell. That's unfortunately how things work nowadays. This is mostly why we had that unnecessary Part 3 in Skyward Sword, where we had to return a THIRD TIME to every piece of land for a new challenge. So yes, the Zelda soul was in danger, and changing the controls was not enough to hide it. Did we lose something in the transition to BOTW? Of course! But if for you it's about the classic dungeons, for me, it was for the longest time the "global" dungeon design. When I saw that nearly all the dungeons in Wind Waker had the same structure with a linear beginning, a big central room, getting to the object and not going back the same way, central room again, finding the boss key, and then coming back-I was really disappointed. Twilight Princess was even worse, with nearly all dungeons having that structure. Only the water dungeon had a cool idea where the whole dungeon was involved (water flowing from room to room depending on the state of the central room-very cool idea), and the snow one had a cute presentation. Yes, it's easy to compare to Skyward Sword, but the dungeon levels were REALLY BAD until that point, and I definitely don't want Zelda to return to those days! And to be honest, I don't think even Skyward Sword's dungeons measure up to the fantastic Majora's Mask dungeons (The Great Bay Temple? Inject it into my veins). Of course, a lot of people don't see it and TP is considered a great Zelda game, but for me changing a coat of paint at every dungeon is not enough to make them interesting... But even then, i wouldn't say "Zelda has lost its soul" at least, not for that reason. No i would really differentiate two critics : First, the traditions were not respected by making the dungeons not as "global" and "interconnected" as in the N64 days (the DS games were soooo bad, I swear). Second, its soul started to deteriorate by having that "adventure feel" lost since you already knew what was going to happen when you reunited those three artifacts at the beginning and everything started to feel like a pretext to reuse an environment. Since I don't think Nintendo is really interested in my nerdy grievances about dungeon design, I prefer having them create something new. It may have a chance to develop into something I would cling to for other entries. After all, we had Zelda BOTW, Zelda BOTW 2 where you build vehicles, and now Zelda BOTW 2D where you play as Zelda. It feels like the formula can go a bit further before feeling as stale as the Zelda 3 structure was. (Even if I too loved Skyward Sword despite some of its problems.)
Yeah. My issue with some Zelda games like Ocarina of Time, Wind Waker, Twilight Princess and even Skyward Sword is that it's A Link to the Past again, in terms of both it's structure and layout. I get that the staple of the series is an hero saving an princess and protecting the artifact that made Hyrule from an demon king who wants to rule it. I don't mind that. But everytime I played one of those games, I feel like I'm playing ALttP for the 5th times with the same premise & plot as it's always been. I can excuse Link Between Worlds because it was meant as an sequel or an spiritual successor to ALttP, while also adding new things that weren't in the original. But for the rest? You could've done something an little bit different rather than being another ALttP.
@@jaretco6423 I really have never liked this argument that games having similar structure to a game that invented that structure means it feels like you're replaying that game. Basically every game series builds upon a single style of gameplay while iterating upon it and making it better. DMC, Metroid, Kirby, The first 10 final fantasies, ALL the forms of the mega man series, Persona and SMT, like every fighting game in existence. Why does this only apply to Zelda?
What I hate about BotW and TotK. 1. Stamina is used for Everything. From Climbing to Swimming, Sprinting to Gliding. Once you are out of Stamina you Fall, you Drown, you're Slow, etc. Absolutely HATE this System and it's Too Limiting in my Opinion. 2. Weapon and Shield Durability. This System is just Insanely Stupid. Playing Other RPGs I never had a Problem with Weapon Durability because I could Repair them myself or get them Repaired at a Blacksmith, or there wasn't Weapon Durability at all, and I like to Collect Everything. 3. No Storage Space, no Storage Boxes, or anything to Store your Items. I know that Other RPGs that are Older don't have this System, but they don't limit you on how much you can Carry, and they don't have a House for the Player to live in, unlike BotW and TotK that DO have a House for Link to live in, but no Storage to use to put any Items away. 4. Removing Weapons for NO Reason or for a STUPID Reason. The Elemental Arrows were Cool and Useful in BotW but where are they in TotK? Gone, because now we have to Waste Valuable Resources to make "Elemental Arrows" or "Elemental Weapons" for that matter. 5. Reusing Assests. Obvious but they Reused the same Asian Dragon Designs for the 2 most Prominent Characters in Zelda instead of using 2 Different Dragon Designs to make them Unique. What a Fucking Waste of Creativity.
Majorca’s mask is a game that it’s made out of almost only reused assets from Ocarina of time, yet everyone loved it All the other points you made are pros in my book so…
If Zelda kept doing the “traditional” way, the series would be dead, but by going this route, they succeeded in making this franchise bigger and more risk taking, sure, tears and breath are not perfect games, in fact, I have a lot of problems with tears, but I think they can improve on it as it goes along, like it or hate the switch games, they kept the series from going into obscurity
Except Aonuma has said there’s no desire from them to return to something that people love, so the series is going to fall into obscurity regardless. Like, imagine how much better the story of TOTK would be if it happened in real time
I feel like there's a lot of cherry picking going on to support your points. Breath/Tears have certainly split the fanbase, and I do understand the criticisms, but Zelda's soul wasn't story or dungeons. Zelda's soul is adventure. That's what Zelda games are: adventure games. "Traditional" Zelda games sought to express that adventure through linear narrative; Breath/Tears expresses it through exploration. Both are valid. The core soul of Zelda remains intact no matter which type of Zelda you play, at least from where I'm standing. I will say, ignoring Echoes of Wisdom because it's a "2D Zelda" is a little silly. It seemed to me like you were dismissing it because it was an inconvenient counterpoint to the thesis of your video. That's a little pedantic, to be honest, because Traditional Zelda games span both 2D and 3D planes. Your arguments get muddy when you imply the 2 are somehow different and should be regarded separately; that 1 style is more Zelda than the other. To me, Echoes is a step in the right direction. It's indicative of both Zelda styles-open-air exploration and linear direction-co-existing. That's the future we should want. Not one or the other, but both. There are people who love Breath/Tears because they *are* such a departure, just as, like you, there are people who pine for what came before, but it doesn't have to be a hard fall on either side of the line. Finally, discussions over what is and isn't considered a true Zelda game have gone on since the series began, and the series has fluctuated back and forth as a result. Windwaker, for example, "wasn't Zelda" because it was seen as too cartoony. Now we have a "Toon" branch of Zelda games, but they're not the only Zelda games being made. Point is, Zelda is Zelda, and just because there is one style, it doesn't mean it's the only one, or that old styles are "dead".
I ignored echoes of wisdom because I couldn’t be asked to make the video any longer as I’d already been working on it for weeks before the game was announced 😂 but fairdos
@@linkalot7415Zelda botw is absolutely full of soul you have to be stupid to say otherwise but tears of the kingdom really is the first main zelda where there is no new strong direction or soul it really is just botw dlc in a way. Even botws story is good just has details hidden away to be found. Where Totk doesnt even try to do good world building or story and fails as a sequel
I never understood the debate about BotW/TotK not being "real Zelda" or "lost the soul of the series" for them being different, because no one, not one single soul (yes I'm making that claim) would say the 3D Sandbox style of Mario games starting with Super Mario 64 are "not real Mario". Mario 64 plays nothing, and I mean ABSOLUTELY nothing, like its predecessors, yet no one questions if it's a "Mario" game or "retains the soul" of the series. Donkey Kong (Mario's first game), Mario Bros (arcade), Super Mario Bros, Super Mario World 2, and Super Mario 64 all play fundamentally different, but I don't see anyone suggesting the radical changes made in each new entry caused the series to lose its soul. Radical departures from established norms is fairly normal for long running game series: Ninja Gaiden (Arcade), Ninja Gaiden (NES), and Ninja Gaiden (Xbox) are also all fundamentally different styles of games, but which is the most "true" Ninja Gaiden game? There's many examples of games going through radical changes like: Donkey Kong Jr. to Donkey Kong Country Kid Icarus to Kid Icarus Uprising Resident Evil to Resident Evil 4, etc etc etc.
Every single Zelda game expresses the spirit of adventure through exploration. Whether the story and dungeon progression is linear or open is irrelevant. There is always exploration to be found in every zda game. It's the blood of the series.
i hate the game too but yall are just nitpicking acting like totk is the only game that reused a map, and it wasn’t even actually reused, but rebuilt from the botw template
i really wish these videos would stop popping up. truthfully, they don't come across as sincere criticism. they just look like attempts to grab more clicks because some misguided people think that it's interesting to hate anything that's popular.
@@linkalot7415 you are allowed to dislike things that are popular, but i am only pointing out that very few critiques of BotW/TotK come across as sincere. however, your opinions could be explained by the fact that you "grew up" playing skyward sword, which indicates you are very young. for an old dinosaur like me, i witnessed MM, WW, TP, and SS all trying to imitate the ground-breaking OOT that came before them. 1 or 2 of these games would have been fine as a follow up to OOT, but not 4. there is nothing "soulful" about constantly trying to imitate an incredible game that already exists.
@@user-tj2xj9re7l incorrect. i believe in absolute freedom of speech in principle. people are allowed to criticise things, and equally, i am allowed to criticise their critique. that's a normal part of discussion and debate.
@@33LBI think it’s disingenuous to say that MM through SS we’re only trying to imitate OoT. I think rather, they all built themselves on the foundation that OoT created. Otherwise we can say that most 2d zelda titles after ALTTP we’re only trying to recapture what ALTTP had. With that line of thinking, people can even say OoT was only trying to imitate what ALTTP had only in a 3D space this time. I think it’s normal for series to build off previous entries so I would not call it imitation for pulling inspiration and creating newer entries on the foundation of a previous title.
@@taylormidnights3133 MM took the LttP and OOT formula to the extreme. all four areas of significance are placed at exact compass points relative to a central hub. complete a sequence of tasks in each area before entering the dungeon. get exactly one song needed in each area to enter the dungeon. get exactly one item in each dungeon which is invariably a bow or bow-related item. SS also followed the OOT formula. complete 3 dungeons in the early game (I was about to write get 3 macguffins, then I remembered that SS doesn't even give link macguffins at the end of the early dungeons- just a sequence of "your Zelda is in another dungeon.") after completing the 3 dungeons, do a mid-game sequence then complete another 3-4 dungeons. also, get exactly 1 item in each dungeon and defeat the boss using said item. why does it always have to be 1 item, and why does the item always have to be relevant to the boss...? OOT got a free pass because it was the first 3D entry in the series, and I can confirm that OOT's open 3D world blew my mind at the time.
how the legend of zelda became the center of a sudden large movement of delusional criticism from people who have no idea what theyre talking about and reach for complaints against perfectly normal game design due to their own deranged problems (which has been true since wind waker)
@@majgoateeIt's almost like the fact that they reused the map isn't what most people criticize, but that the way in which it was done was unsatisfying and repetitive. Come on, if you watched basically any critique of the game you'd know people aren't inherently against the idea of reused content
Couldn't agree more with your vid, mate, and good on you for throwing out such an unpopular opinion! For me the heart of Zelda has always been linear progression puzzles, both in and out of dungeons. It could be that the dungeon is in the dark world and the only warp point in on a platform under a heavy rock so you come back when you have fast travel + Titans Gloves (LTTP) or it could be that the Gorons have become hostile to outsiders so you need to find iron boots to beat them in a sumo match and win their respect (TP). There is no progression of this sort in the new games - progression cannot be gated when you can just climb over or around the gate. The closest I can think of is the Lynel encounter in BOTW Zora, and that is spelled out for you. Incidentally the quote about not wanting to go back to being restricted is ridiculous, most games are defined by their restrictions. Would football (soccer) be more fun if you had the freedom to pick the ball up and run? Would chess be more fun if you could move any piece in any direction? Hell, free movement on the Z axisis by definition less restrictive than controlled descent with a glider, but I doubt anyone would thank you for adding unrestricted flight to BOTW. You can argue that the rules implemented in BOTW are more fun than those in earlier games, but to use more freedom = more fun as a rule of thumb is nonsense.
I do get your point, however this is a bit of return to the initial formula from the original LoZ. TotK did make some changes and I think the Zelda team is still figuring out the balance of how to make a game like this. I don’t think BotW or TotK are the endpoint of this formula but rather the beginning and as they continue to hear feedback I think they will refine it and strike that perfect balance
...Have you played the original LoZ? It is not a sandbox or entirely open. Yes, you can go to a number of places in the beginning, however you can only progress by beating dungeons and getting their respective items and triforce shards, as a number of dungeons couldn't be entered without another item.
@@AmirPrinceling they built upon it, however the intent behind LoZ was the freedom of exploration. That's what I meant, not complete freedom and a sandbox style, the tech back then I doubt could've handled that. However they even stated this much in developer interviews about Breath of the Wild
@@reeseseater12 Just because Aonuma wanted something doesn't mean that was the goal of the rest of the team. After all, there's more than just Aonuma on the Zelda Team. It wasn't just technical limitations that kept certain games linear, but rather because the Team had a vision. Aonuma might have wanted a focus on gameplay, but not all of the team wanted that. The history of the Cancelled Twilight Princess Sequel illustrates the varied opinions of the Team very well, as the majority of the team wanted a story-driven game like TP again, but Miyamoto denied that. So we lost the sequel and ended up instead with...Link's Crossbow Training. All gameplay, no story. And who would've guessed, that flopped.
@@AmirPrinceling as the director of the game I'm sure his vision probably strongly influenced the direction the game took. In fact you bringing up the Twilight Princess scrapped sequel kinda proves that those who hold power positions influence the directions of the games far more. I think we can take his words at face value since there's been absolutely no push back against that at all, not even rumors online
@reeseseater12 ...Obviously, the director determines what is included in the game or isn't, so whether we get something is up to the director's whims. Just because we haven't heard of people having issues with the direction on the Dev Team doesn't mean it doesn't happen, those people just never have much reason to say anything publicly and just be content with whatever happens.
This game could've been one of the best sequels of an video game ever made. But instead, it's one of the most disappointing ones. Not calling the game bad. But it was an huge miss potential. Majora's Mask is an better sequel than this and that was on an late 5th gen console.
I wonder how much of your perspective comes from having grown up with Skyward Sword, specifically (especially regarding boss difficulty! Lol) On ToTK, you make a couple of interesting points, but your focus on the reuse of the topography blinded you to the fact that EVERYTHING else in the game changed, and in a very meticulous fashion. It would be illogical to completely change the topography of the world for a game that takes place a couple years in the future. Look at Red Dead for an example. I think splitting 2D and 3D Zelda is really the way to go. 3D Zelda was starting to hit on the limitations of the format... they were running out of ways to innovate and needed to find a new direction. ToTK was never going to be for everyone. Skyward Sword was also decried by a large portion of the fan base. It is the nature of software development. Hopefully the new 2D game will help scratch that particular itch for you. :-)
I love Zelda. Breath of the Wild was awesome. Zelda has never been about the dungeons for me. I don't own a Switch so I haven't been able to play TotK. 😊
I don't care for the new style of Zelda and that's okay, not everything is for everyone, but I just wish there was something to take the place of traditional Zelda, a heroic adventure with quality puzzle filled dungeons with cool items.
I completely agree with you. Whilst some parts of TOTK were great, i think it should've just stayed a DLC, whilst it definately feels like they had some great ideas, thay practically recycled map and the plot and adding on more of the same kind of dungeon. Honestly I feel like BOTW's second DLC may have even had a better storyline than TOTK. Great vid, really did well in explaining everything
I'm pretty sure there was a guy out there somewhere saying the same thing about every single Zelda game realease after the very first one. I only ever finished "Link's Awakening" back in the days, which I've always loved, but never really got into the rest of the franchise for various reasons. Only since the Switch released and made me play through "Breath of the Wild" and "TotK" did I find what I loved in Link's Awakening in the early 90's again. They are so good that it made me go back to the origins and play through Zelda 1. And that's when I realized how similar these latest games actually are to the first game in its very basics. So if anything, Zelda got it's "Soul" back as far as I'm concerned. Your statement would be much more real if you were talking about Final Fantasy.
Except the bulk of the content of Zelda 1 were dungeons that scaled in difficulty that gave you items that were often necessary for completing other dungeons. BotW and TotK do go back to open exploration similar to Zelda 1, but that is not the only thing that defines Zelda 1. It had 2 major aspects overworld exploration and dungeons that were intertwined. Later Zelda games all diminished one aspect in favor of the other including both the traditional (which favors dungeons) and open air (which favors overworld). In that respect BotW is no more similar to the original than traditional Zelda is, it just inverted the balance.
@@robertgamer3112 The bulk of BotW and TotK had areas that scaled in difficulty through having higher difficulty enemies in different parts of the world and exploration netted you items that would make traversal easier allowing you to reach areas you previously couldn't or had difficulty with via extra stamina and new abilities. The dungeons in Zelda 1 were as "intertwined" with the world as the shrines, divine beasts, and temples are (actually, the beasts and temples are arguably more intertwined as they actually affect the landscape) and overwolrd exploration is still a major aspect.
Oh brother. This is so tone-deaf. The first game is still far different from BotW. There are dungeon items and dungeons and an implied path to take, as you can't just challenge Ganon from the beginning like you can with Breath/Tears. The only similarity is how you can face some dungeons out of order, but that's aspect has been in several other games. The series never changed as drastically until BotW/TotK. Prior entries only built up on the foundation established by Zelda 1, while BotW ignored all that and just became like every other Open-World Sandbox.
@@pitshoster401 I have, multiple times, and it's closer to the original than the series has been for a while. There's even enough small details and Easter eggs in it that pay homage to the original to make a vid out of it, some of which haven't really made any type of appearance until BotW (multi-tiered enemies denoted by color, 13 hearts to get the Master Sword (Magic Sword in the first game), the Zonai statues themselves bear a resemblance to the dungeon statues in the first game, the shrine entrances and how you go down when you enter them is reminiscent of how Link would enter dungeons in the first game, the list is extensive, they even used a modified version of the first game as a prototype to test ideas)
Man, just relax that linearity was not present in the first game and for some OG fans. OOT was way too linear, we never complained though and enjoy that game for all the other great elements it brought: storywise characters and above everything the music. In short each title has strong and weak points, now we are in a phase of freedom and maybe in a anothef 5 years we go back to more storytelling. That variety and appreciation of it makes a real fan imho
Yes that’s a good point, phases defined by different key themes - linearity or freedom, as you said - come and go. Zelda already showed an impressive willingness to change through breath of the wild, so who’s to say it won’t again in the furure?
I grew up with the N64 era of Zelda, and I find most of your commentary to be absolutely on-the-spot. The type of blind hatred you get on the internet for criticizing nu-Zelda is something I've never been able to wrap my head around. "If you don't love this series ditching its core identity, then you're arguing in bad faith and a stupid asshole!"
Right? These comments are insane. Ppl are on here acting like a couple youtubers "tryna get quick clicks" are the only ppl who have this opinion....that's just not true. I wasn't a huge fan of BOTW BEFORE TOTK even existed or got teased. I did try, but I just couldn't enjoy it like I did older games. Ppl are on here claiming Zelda was never "about the story" or "about the dungeons" just completely disregarding the fact that's WHY so many people like the older games. Story, dungeons, and music are the REASON OOT still holds a spot as a top game of all time. You could play OOT as a kid, grow up, play it some more, and feel that pain of losing childhood, BUT you can also play it as a completely new player to the game as an ADULT and still feel the exact same loss of childhood emotions OOT brings. I don't understand why BOTW/TOTK criticism is the one that got people so butthurt to the point they'd call ppl "deranged" for not liking them. (seriously look thru these comments, one person actually said DERANGED. Come on????)
I disagree that Zelda lost its soul but I get why totk was a disappointment for sum Reusing the same hyrule was a really bad decision imo it killed the novelty of an exploration driven Zelda game. Traditionalist misunderstand why totk was a let down. It’s not the lack of traditions but it’s very much the map. I still really like totk it’s in my top 5
I have the opposite criticism of Tears of the Kingdom. To me, that game you describe combining Breath of the Wild with traditional Zelda design is Tears of the Kingdom. If you tore down all the walls in Skyward Sword, you would get Tears of the Kingdom's world design. It's really evident in the areas with dungeons, everything you encounter is a tutorial for a mechanic you will end up using in the dungeon. The path to Rito Village is littered with wind and diving mechanic tutorials, many redundant ones to account for all the different paths players could take. This is more or less how the overworld worked in Skyward Sword, and it made the world feel too utilitarian, lacking in soul if you will, and it has a similar effect in Tears of the Kingdom (though not as badly imo). Tears of the Kingdom is disappointing to me because, while Breath of the Wild reinvented classic Zelda design to work in an open world, Tears of the Kingdom added traditional Zelda design without sufficient modification to work with the open world. There's no attempt to compensate for linear content in a nonlinear progression. For example, the sage quests are much too linear and don't really work if you freely explore. If you go ahead of that progression, the game simply won't let you. Tulin straight up does not exist anywhere in Hyrule after you see his first cutscene in Rito Village until you speak to Harth. Tulin will similarly not follow you up the sky island chain, even if you've already been inside the temple or the nearby shrine and warp there, unless you find the very specific spot where he has dialogue about the flying ships. I really do not understand these calls for a return to traditional Zelda with the new open world approach. Tears of the Kingdom was that return and it clearly disappointed the very same players calling for this.
I'm sure it's just a coincidence that the true soul and essence of this 35 year old video game franchise are the things that you, in particular, are nostalgic about
As much as I can understand the disappointment of historical fans, and recognise some flaws in both BOTW and TOTK, videos like yours are a concentrate of superficiality and selective memory. I'm tired of hearing this idea of classic 3D Zelda where dungeons were the dominant element: Skyward Sword, for example, only had 7 dungeons, and if I added them up, I'd get 30% of the game at best. And what was in the remaining 70%? 3 macro areas you have to return to THREE TIMES, linear, with questionable combat (mainly due to the controls) and puzzles integrated as best they could, but not always fun to solve. And let's not forget the worst offender, Wind Waker, with only 5 dungeons, and far inferior in quality compared to its predecessors (and even Skyward), set in an empty and bare world design, with a flood (no pun intended XD) of boring filler content between both the main and side quests. The idea that BOTW and TOTK are generic among the many open world titles is not only ridiculous, but dishonest, because in seven years only one open world has been recognised as a worthy disciple of Breath Of The Wild, and that is Elden Ring. As if that weren't enough, the following year saw the release of TOTK, which is so much better in terms of technology and design than its predecessor that it would be impossible for any other development team to even think of taking inspiration from it in depth rather than just in appearance (as Immortals fenyx rising does with BOTW, for example). What's more, we're talking about titles that are far more consistent than your average 3D Zelda, because they offer a cohesive experience where strengths don't have to share space with filler, and they don't force you to play through interminable tutorials before the game starts in earnest. And in doing so, they bridged the gap with the top-down chapters, which had far better overworlds than the post-Ocarina chapters.
I agree that TotK is a technological marvel, but in terms of game design it is not much more special than BotW (I would argue it is worse). It barely even scratches the surface of what its own mechanics are capable of because the reused world is simply not built for them. Inspired and talented devs could absolutely expand on the emergent gameplay and verticality TotK offered.
Yeah that point about skyward sword not being made up of dungeons in its entirety is valid, it’s about 50% dungeons I’d guess. I’d agree that meaningless, largely uninteresting padding is a significant issue with that game. But it still felt more like it captured that Zelda spirit than breath and tears did to me. Thanks for watching though, and for writing such a detailed comment!
@@Charnutboy That's because you think about the content itself rather than the big picture: TOTK has by far the best designed open world I ever seen because just everything serve a bigger function, even a cave, because you can use caves to climb mountains (and they ALWAYS know where you're going to use Ascend, because they always make sure you'll see something new to catch your attention).
@@linkalot7415 Only considering the pre dungeons segments we can hope to reach that share, and Skyward pre dungeons are mostly bad except the two in Lanayru desert
@@zekrom34 I'm sorry, but content is literally one half of the bigger picture in game design. The fact that they made sure you always have something to do and go to without always making sure the stuff you're doing isn't repetitive/boring/underwhelming means they completed only HALF of a satisfying gameplay loop.
@@maddoxreddish4352 You mean the remakes? They're great, in my opinion. Also, having building-mechanics doesn't automically make a game better than another.
![USAB Showcase: Australia vs USA [OFFICIAL STREAM]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/keiEr_MOaSQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Genuinely cannot fathom how some people don't see the huge difference of modern Zelda to the traditional Zelda. Aonuma himself said multiple times that they broke every convention. So yes, people are allowed to dislike the new format. Traditional 3D Zelda is something that no other franchise has been able to replicate and with modern Zelda ditching that format too we are now out of a massively popular game style in the industry. You are allowed to prefer one over the other but there is a reason so many people are speaking out about traditional Zelda.
You can dislike the modern zelda, but calling modern zelda bad, it's killing the franchise, and soulless is not saying you dislike it but outright insulting the hard work that went into making the artistic vision work.
For example, I don't care for dark souls or any of the modern fromsoft games, but I dont go online saying any that they all suck and are soulless. If i have praised the games for what they have accomplished.
If you want to dislike zelda, go ahead. But if you want to go online and use inflammatory language about your dislike of it, expect people to do the same about your opinion.
I do see the huge difference, so what? I like what Nintendo is doing, i'm open to experience new things and i understand for some people that's hard to let go, so really it just depends on the person. And to be honest, if you think abt it this "freedom" Nintendo is offering in these new games are actually more alike to the first original Zelda game, not the linear stories some of the later zelda games had (that are also crazy good). We just gotta understand that Nintendo's nature IS reforming the industry, IS reinventing its franchises, IS offering new experiences in gameplay without losing the core. And that has a risk ofc, some people are gonna like it some people won't, but i'd rather have Nintendo take that risk
People say this? I think you’d have to have serious cognitive impairment to not see the huge difference.
@@agente3347 I agree, I just hope, like Linkalot said toward the end, to see a really nice mash-up of the two styles. Link Between Worlds had a bit of linearity, but after the first few dungeons, threw you into Lorule and let you choose your path from there. I def like the openness of new Zelda, but I will admit there's some slight disappointment knowing I can reach almost everything right off the bat and complete any puzzle I want after I get all the abilities. It felt soooo satisfying seeing a place early game and reaching it at a later point. I also know it might be a tad hard to do, but I do wish for a more coherent story in the future. God forbid u get the wrong memory during TOTK and get quickly spoiled on the fact Zelda's a dragon😭I still have faith in the series, and yeah I def nope nintendo takes the non-extreme criticism to heart and does something wonderful from it!
The even crazier thing is people trying to gaslight us into thinking the hate on BotW/TotK is just the "Zelda Cycle" and that "it's normal for the series to make huge changes." Which is just incorrect.
This new style is just lazy. It's so much easier to design a game that's a sandbox, as opposed to a game that actually has a path of progression. That's why Aonuma said he enjoyed developing BotW more than any other Zelda; He had more freedom than ever and didn't have to worry about story or progression holding him back from implementing whatever he wanted. It's infuriating that this series I love is just being driven into the ground, and that all the people who have only ever played BotW/TotK want to say that that style of Zelda somehow is superior to the actual style of Zelda.
I noticed there wasn’t a lot of dissatisfaction videos when breath of the wild ruled the roost for 6+ years it wasn’t until tears of the kingdom that these type of videos started spawning.
Botw was fresh. I think that people though that ToTk was going to bring back mechanics of the old Zelda games ( like dungeons and specific items to solve them)
I think the over-exposure of the botw style of gameplay has made a ton of ppl sour on the new formula and miss the old one. I love botw while still preferring the old zelda formula, it’s just that for a while botw was fresh and a new concept, now with most modern open worlds being based on the botw style, totk felt sorely lacking in originality (doesn’t help that it’s extremely similar to botw too and a bit more of a chore to get through in my opinion), souring a lot of people’s perception.
The new game was fine and trying something new can be great but I think for the most part people didn't expect it to become the new standard. They need to strike a balance ideally.
It's a play at the algorithm
Because those videos didn't get pushed as much. Also, many people thought BotW was going to be a one-time thing. Many people were dissatisfied with it (just look at r/truezelda), but the fact TotK was the exact same song and dance is what has emboldened people to making their opinions more clearly known.
Skyward Sword is my favorite game in the series. I think that was the peak of great dungeons, great items, distinct colorful characters, and an engaging story.
Absolutely based.
The reason why The Legend of Zelda isn't as fun for me anymore is the same for me with Castlevania: they got rid of the fun part. I love the rpg Castlevania games. But with Lords of shadow the rpg formula disappeared and i lost interest. Until Bloodstained came out.
In Zelda i tried to get into Breath of the wild. I even beat it, but it isn't as fun anymore. What did they take? The closed off areas, where you need abilities and items to pass is what kept me in. The sense of progression Metroidvanias have, the slowly opening up of the world always felt so good. I don't want an open world where i don't know where to go. I want an open world that is closed at the beginning and the opening is rewarded.
Fun to you. Everyone likes and experiences games differently and like different things about them. You can't say that taking away what you personally enjoy about games is taking the fun out of games.
@@zleeven Oh shoot i didn't say me.
There could be a happy medium that can become an excellent formula: Have Dungeons that can be played at any order, but that grant their own items necessary to progress the story. Have weapons that don’t break, but can detract damage points the more you use them. Have the Master Sword as vital and UNBREAKABLE. And please, have Link heal up by eating or drinking while in motion, not at the pause menu (have a dedicated items button).
I think what kills me about BOTW/TOTK is the absolute insane opinions by new fans they've brought about. There's this whole argument that Zelda stories "have always been bad", "dungeons don't matter THAT much" etc etc....like have y'all even HEARD about why people like literally any other Zelda game? I'm not saying they have to ENJOY the older games more, but these "hot takes" are just....horrible. If they don't want to play the older games, again, totally fine, but it's mental that ppl are just proudly sitting here and blowing off everything that made the series what it was up until this era. I want to see the series grow and change but it's starting to feel like every other dang open world game with the Zelda title just smacked on it.
It’s 18 year olds & younger saying these things. The fortnite crowd has come into Zelda
It’s turning into the fallout fanbase
My biggest gripe with new Zelda is how every dungeon looks the same.
Why does every shrine have to look the same?
Why does every dungeon/divine beast need to look the same?
Even Skyrim had more variety. At least in that game you had Nordic Tombs, Dwemer Tombs, Caverns, Castles, Ice Mountains, Mines, Imperial Settlements etc.
In BOTW all you get is: technological steampunk ruin
Tears fixed that lol.
No dungeon looks the same.
@@ash8244not really. All the shrines still look exactly the same
I was extremely excited when i first found the depths because i was fully expecting giant Eldritch horrors to be down there. Needless to say i was very disappointed with the depths. Also i hate that they said pirates were at lurein village and i was thinking it could be simular the majora mask pirates, but no just generic old bokoblins.
It would've been so cool to see a band of Hylians who still hadn't fully recovered from the chaos turn into a pirate gang!! So many missed opportunities fr. Hell, get some Zora and Rito peeps in on the gang too. Would've been sick af
The biggest problem for me is 2 things the story and the zonai, speaking of the zonai I swear someone at nintendo watched theory videos about the zonai botw on TH-cam and said why don't we make them a major focus in totk but as boring and uninstesting they don't care about their own lore they proved that and nobody recognizes us from the last game this is not a sequel it is a reboot and rewrite of botw.
Nintendo doesn't care about fan speculation on the lore which in case of the Zonai really only amounts to "There was an ancient civilization we don't know much about that existed", anything outside of that is pure fan speculation.
Like I get that the Zonai aren't ACTUALLY the first "rulers of Hyrule" or however they worded it in TOTK, but their lore is still so weird to me lol. (tbf same with the Oocca tho tf was that about haha) they keep making up these "ancestors to Hyrule" and then just? Kinda ignoring every implication and backstory that race should come with. Clearly Hylians/humans existed with the Oocca, same as the Zonai. I wish nintendo would flesh out both races more. Maybe in whatever new Zelda we'll see, we can see origin stories of the Zonai. They ARE a cool race, that game just left so much to be desired and so far the only explanation we get is "lol this is like thousands upon thousands of years into the future from the most recent game timeline wise, idk guess urself idiots"
The part about a static story state especially resonated with me. The fact that even after Link learns where Zelda is in totk yet doesn’t tell anyone is so stupid and de-immerses me. A linear story wouldn’t have that problem. Also the fact that totk was DELAYED and it’s 70$ is hard to square with the copy paste world. It feels like the devs put all their work into ultra hand and nothing else.
The dev team working on totk was definitely like The Office but in a game studio.
The problem isn't Aonuma, but Fujibayashi. His approach to making games is to have a rigid and unyielding philosophy. He directed Skyward Sword where the philosophy was "Everything is designed as a dungeon." Then his next two games were "Everything is designed as open ended non-linear elements." As long as he is the director, you will not get a "hybrid" Zelda game.
As much as I like Breath and Tears, Wind Waker still remains my favourite Zelda game. I've always had this idea where in order to find a middle ground, Zelda could carry on with being "open-air" while Nintendo uses some of their dormant IP that fit under the action adventure genre like StarTropics or Mysterious Murasame Castle to continue the "traditional" structure, that way we still get games that have the charm of the Ocarina era while not having to specifically be Zelda to avoid a Paper Mario situation. I guess it depends on if long-time fans are okay with playing as other characters that aren't Link but yeah.
Agreed wholeheartedly. Great games? Sure! But there's no magic anymore. No real feeling of progress or worst, no feeling of urgency. There's no real story, nothing to find out about it, so I really don't care what's gonna happen next. Also, adquiring new specialized weapons to progress is lost, which defined the wonderful experience
I didn't expect zelda totk to go this way with fans but I knew this would happen back in 2017 when playing botw knowing that zelda 1 was going to simplify the series
I so agree, the focus on player freedom above all else is such a detriment to the game and the dungeons. If you ask me, there were two games that perfectly balanced linearity and freedom, and that was Ocarina of time, and a Link between Worlds. Now I'm not saying oot is the best game, my favorite is also skyward sword (Skyward sword fans unite!) but OoT and ALBW did it spectacularly.
Yes, you had to complete the first four dungeons in that order, but because you did that and have the experience, later dungeons can play with and expect you to know the mechanics of those four, which is something you can't really do if you can do everything out of order.
Good video!
Another one that balances linearity and freedom, but is not talked about much is Zelda 1. There is a lot of freedom in how you explore the world and complete the dungeons, but many of the dungeons require an item from a previous dungeons and the harder dungeons are in places that are harder to reach/find so you still end up doing the dungeons in a mostly ascending order which gives the game a difficulty curve and feeling of progression.
Side note. As it so happens OoT and ALBW are my favorite Zelda games and I like Skyward Sword too.
@@robertgamer3112 Noted! I actually haven't finished Zelda 1 yet (long story, but I named myself zelda without realizing that puts you in a harder game mode and only learned that after I gave up) but it's good to see how the balance has been there since the beginning!
Reminds me of a poem I wrote a long time ago...
Breath of the Wild
A lonely awakening, a disembodied voice,
Proceed from here, then make your choice.
An empty world, sad ruined lands,
Have fallen victim to Ganon's hands.
Scattered survivors live out their days,
Living their lives in a meaningless haze.
Your memory is empty, you clutch at the light,
But what you remember is only her spite.
Your failures haunt you, unsure you can last,
But defeating Ganon won't undo the past.
Your weapons keep breaking, just like your resolve,
What will seeking vengeance solve?
Hyrule is no longer the land of the hero,
In the eyes of the people, you're just a zero.
The quest doesn't matter, there is no reward,
Who cares if you find the Master Sword?
Any fool could beat Ganon, if they cared enough.
Is believing it's your destiny just a big bluff?
Does it profit you to go here or go there?
It really doesn't matter if you go anywhere.
A vast, endless landscape to search for the seeds,
Fulfilling half-forgotten wanderlust needs.
The memories and shadows of your earlier time,
Leave you longing for a brighter day and a better rhyme.
Unrelated but im still looking forward to you upcoming xenoblade 3 story analysis videos
Thank you bro but I’m afraid you may be waiting a while - got many other videos I’m working on beforehand I’m afraid
@@linkalot7415 take all the time you need 👍
Many who can’t comprehend why most didn’t complain when botw came out was precisely because it is extremely good even as an entire change of the formula.
With totk being very identical to botw and a ton of other open worlds being heavily inspired by it, the over exposure of the genre and the lack of genuinely good dungeon/puzzle designs has soured on many. I adore botw while still preferring the old formula way more but even then totk was a hard sell for me as soon as it got announced and was very justified in my apprehension when getting to actually play it. I tried multiple times so hard but I just could not get into it. It’s a testament to how too much of a good thing can overstay its welcome. It’s completely understandable how totk has sort of been like a wake up call for many that this is genuinely not a good direction to fully take the series.
I think another open world Zelda COULD work, it just shouldn’t be just another botw again.
I at least wanted to see the hookshot. That would be the one gimmick item that would be useful
11:40
Meanwhile, classic Zelda plays you a jingle for simply shooting a button. Dear god man I can't take your criticism seriously if you're gonna be this petty.
Exactly, this guy has no clue what he's talking about
Lost one soul perhaps, but got a new one in return.
Imagine this! Twilight princess remake, with the botw fighting mechanic and physics system and some more content added
I think one of the down sides to new Zelda is they focus too much on game play and not enough on story. Some of my favorite video game series like uncharted or metal gear make you feel like you are playing an interactive movie with a great story and ending. Nintendo games to me were more about game play with not much of a story. Mario was a great platformer with fun gameplay. Metroid was a great game about exploration and making your main character stronger with new power to take on more powerful bosses. I am not a big zelda fan but according to most of the zelda videos zelda was about dungeon crawling and solving interesting puzzles so you can get new powers that will help you save the princess. Zelda botw and totk were games with amazing open worlds with lots to explore but the stories weren't great compared to the jrpg games I played growing up. If zelda had a compelling story like a jrpg combined with the open world and gameplay they could have been an amazing games. Zelda could have the open world and the traditional dungeons but if it didn't have a great story it wouldn't be the best game it could be as far as I am conserned. Botw and Totk were fun with great game play but the final fantasy games I put hundreds of hours into growing up had great stories with some plot twist and satisfying endings. I wish some of my favorite nintendo games had better stories. I will still put lots of hours platforming in a mario game or colleting everything in a metroid or open world game link zelda but there is something different about playing cinematic game with great cut scenes and a great ending. A perfect game would have great game play and story.
For me, Wind Waker was a great title walking between both the larger world mechanics we've seen with BOTW & TOTK, and the traditional dungeon linearity tied to world events and story that came to be a larger staple for the series for a long while. Breath of the wild wasn't my jam because it wasn't a game whose type of adventure was made for me. I love worlds that truly hone down on a more focused and direct story, or at the very least environmental story telling that can be monumental to someone talking about its vision.
I think it's okay to fall in love with a game whose focus is more on the aimless adventurer just setting off into the sunset, making due with what they got and winging it however they choose. I think it's also okay to yearn for a similar design with more nuanced and meaningful story elements. Some people want to recount their adventures as watching a sun rise on a beautiful valley, and others want to talk about the sinister deeds of a villain and the world at large.
Yeah, no. tWW had a prototype large word, sure, but it's also where the stifling handholding of the main quest came to the fore in the main series. If the story had actually benefitted from that linearity it would have been much more excusable, but it didn't. The only time the story does something interesting with the specific Plot Coupon order is the return to Outset Island. Twilight Princess has similarly ass-backwards approach. Midna and King of Red Lions might as well whip out the script and tell you it says Link wil go there next so the plot can happen.
If you want to see linear adventure structure done right, the only time that has happened in the main series is in the first half of SS: Zelda went to the dungeon, you're chasing her, ergo you'll go to the dungeon.
If this one is also corrupted I’m actually gonna go insane 😂
You get an automatic like for acknowledging and appreciating not just Ghirahim but also Zant :þ
Ahem, but yes, good video overall. Definitely some points I disagree with like botw having almost no/flat story, I think the story, while very scattered around and 'optional' was very good. I also tend to consider the lead up to the divine beasts as extensions of the dungeons themselves, so in that way they're sorta different but, yeah, nowhere near as good as traditional dungeons...
I don't know.... botw is one of my fav Zelda games along with Twilight Princess, which many consider too linear so my two favorite games are sort of the opposite end of the 'freedom spectrum'. I also adore Skyward Sword (mostly because Ghirahim exists tbh) but there were more aspects of it I didn't like such as the repeated imprisoned fights so it's not quite up there with the other two in absolute favorites, the linearity was never my biggest problem there though. All this to say: I don't really know why linearity is considered so bad, it means the game can tell a focused strong story and develop the difficulty of content properly. Sure, too much linearity with no freedom is bad but I'd say the other extreme is the same, you need a balance of both and I hope future Zelda games can find that balance!
I write this as i've been obsessively playing Tears of the Kingdom lately and having so much fun with it... while still thinking about how much better it COULD have been...
I love Zelda. But nothing crushed my spirit harder than BotW, and TotK hit me over the head with a shovel.
I agree with all of what you said, but would've used much stronger language if it was me writing the script. The two latest entries are empty sandboxes, carried by certain mechanics that get old after not much time. It's ridiculous to me how it's fine to spend most of development time on a silly mechanic rather than everything else. TotK has so much fluff content within it, it's shameless. Addison Signs, Korok Seeds, Bubbul Gems, etc. So much fluff just to pad the game out and try to further justify the 70 dollar price tag.
Never have I been more excited to finish a game than Tears, it became such a chore. The Sky is nothing but copy-and-pasted puzzles all over the place with no life whatsoever, the Depths are ridiculously empty and dull to explore, and the overworld looks even uglier with all the rocks strewn everywhere. It infuriates me that Aonuma believes this is somehow "superior" to the old formula, and that he "can't understand those who prefer the older games."
Well that happens wheb you change the formula of a franchise that has more than 2 decades. I remember that back in the day , a group of the resident evil fanbase was angry with resident evil 4, but now is the standard of the remakes
I wholeheartedly agree with you. I pray they go back to the traditional Zelda storytelling and dungeons.
Classic Zelda has always been more similar to metroidvania in its game design. Except instead of one huge sprawling dungeon with a limited overworld, there's a big overworld with many dungeons, and a larger focus on narrative. It's been like that since the original, with Link to the Past refining the formula. To say that the modern Zeldas are improvements over the old formula directly is asinine. They're just different games at this point. I'd be totally fine with the modern Zeldas being an ultra strong third pillar alongside the other 3d games and 2d games, but there's no need for this to be Zelda's only future. 2D metroid coexists alongside prime just fine, so why can't this new style exist alongside the old, even if you have to have some other dev team manage it. I'm open to new ideas and concepts, but there's no need to throw out what worked before completely, especially when you're not giving anything to substitute.
I loved botw and totk but i think that i want a 2d zelda. I am hoping that echoes of wisdom is yhat game
How can you claim "Zelda lost its soul" when Zelda 1, Zelda II, A Link to the Past, and Link's Awakening all came out before the birth of 3D Zelda with Ocarina of Time?
Claiming 2D Zelda and 3D Zelda are fundamentally different doesn't change the fact the series started in 1986 and had 4 games before Ocarina came out in 1998.
3D Zelda is the absolute minority of games in the series. We are up to 20+ Zelda games and only 7 (when including BotW/TotK) are 3D.
It's very odd to effectively suggest Zelda only gained a "soul" in 1998 and that the 2D games don't really count.
Well, what makes you think the 2D games are going to stick with the original formula rather than being more BoTW-like? I know I'm hoping we get more 2D Zelda with the old ALttP formula or something, but I'm afraid the old formula may really be dead. And really OoT was in many ways just 3D ALttP anyway. The last Zelda game I enjoyed was A Link Between Worlds, unless you count the Link's Awakening remake. Ultimately, that Echoes of Wisdom game will be the answer to the question one way or the other.
I would rather play the water temple from N64 ocarina of time then play tears again
people saying story was not a strong suit in zelda games is complete bs, yes they weren't the main focus but games like MM prove that the story is not always just an after thought, even games like Link's Awakening is a good example, TP, saying Zelda doesn't have good stories is just a bs excuse that people make when they try to defend BOTW's lack luster story.
I wished, I could argue against your issues, because I genuinely had fun playing TotK. But still, I liked BotW better. I feel like many things that made playing BotW great, have been removed from TotK, just to appeal a bit more to Players, who crave higher difficulty. Yes, BotW was exceedingly easy in the late game, but to me, having everything at the ready without much struggle, was part of its appeal. And at the same time they removed the Master Mode, which may not have been the best means, but at least one way to please, what those - and I’m sorry for the exaggeration- Dark Souls fans wanted. Difficulty. And it’s not that I don’t like a challenge. After all, I bit my teeth into the challenge of fighting Lynels and overcame it, which is part of the fun. But quite a few things that were there in abundance if you know where to look, are just gone in BotW. Heck, I didn’t care for using game breaking glitches in BotW, but in TotK, it’s just part of even playing the game. I started a letsplay of that game and I swore not to be among those who start one but not finishing it. And now, TotK has simply lost me. In fact, so much so, that I don’t know if I will have it in me to finish it sometime.
You are right, TotK lacks diversity. Yes, it is a lot like DLC, though it changes it’s gameplay too much to be classified as such. It definitely failed to be more linear and feature genuine challenge in the dungeons, where you’d expect it and no this doesn’t contradict my complaints of difficulty, as the lack of difficulty in being resourceful in BotW is different from the lack of difficulty in challenging puzzles.
I agree, I also wished that future Zelda games did become more linear, for the sake of having more challenging dungeons. I would wish for more diversity in enemies and items alike. But to be honest, I’m somewhat pessimistic about it.
And by the way: I also loved Skyward Sword HD like crazy despite being so unsure about it from the get go, given my troubled past with the Zelda series.
The "soul" of Zelda is not about traditional elements like dungeon designs but something more vague, like a unique combination of puzzles and action that creates a feeling of adventure. Something that can be reinterpreted in many ways. Nintendo's ability to adapt this to an open-world format in BOTW is genius. When you populate your open world, you tend to put some "stuff" in it and sometimes they don't matter, like in GTA where you just go to the icon or other time it's just what we call a "random fight". Zelda BOTW by following the "soul" of Zelda, invented "random puzzles" dispersed on the whole map ( koroks, shrine, sign guy etc... ) and it shows a deep understanding of what the series mean. Something not everyone could have pulled off! In an alternate world, some people might say, "No! I don't like those puny battles, I prefer the whole game to be about very big bosses!" For me, it would just mean the normal fight gameplay lacks interest, but it doesn't mean it's bad to have battles that aren't bosses.
The real discussion is about what we prefer in past interpretations of that soul in the older games that manifest themselves through "traditions." Now, like the video says, there is a lot of different stuff, and the video is right about most of them, but it may forget problems from the older games, not just Skyward Sword. Every single one of them felt like a repetition of Zelda 3. Even Ocarina of Time feels like a remake of Zelda 3 at times with its structure (first three artifacts followed by a lot of different dungeons all about finding a new object that will be used against the boss ) and dungeon design! For me, the series had become Zelda 3, Zelda 3 GB but only the second phase ( and better ), Zelda 3 3D, Zelda 3 3D but only the first phase and with a timer, Zelda 3 3D on the ocean, Zelda 3D 2, and Zelda 3 3D with gestures for over 10 years. This repetition in the old games led to a loss of that "adventure" feeling since you knew what to expect even if some aspect like the complexity or the story are better. You could say that that repetition was there for a good reason: creating a unique dungeon and boss every time is time-consuming for Nintendo, which always had to find ways to reuse the same maps to extend game length. The longer the game, the more it is shared with others, and the more it can sell. That's unfortunately how things work nowadays. This is mostly why we had that unnecessary Part 3 in Skyward Sword, where we had to return a THIRD TIME to every piece of land for a new challenge.
So yes, the Zelda soul was in danger, and changing the controls was not enough to hide it. Did we lose something in the transition to BOTW? Of course! But if for you it's about the classic dungeons, for me, it was for the longest time the "global" dungeon design. When I saw that nearly all the dungeons in Wind Waker had the same structure with a linear beginning, a big central room, getting to the object and not going back the same way, central room again, finding the boss key, and then coming back-I was really disappointed. Twilight Princess was even worse, with nearly all dungeons having that structure. Only the water dungeon had a cool idea where the whole dungeon was involved (water flowing from room to room depending on the state of the central room-very cool idea), and the snow one had a cute presentation. Yes, it's easy to compare to Skyward Sword, but the dungeon levels were REALLY BAD until that point, and I definitely don't want Zelda to return to those days! And to be honest, I don't think even Skyward Sword's dungeons measure up to the fantastic Majora's Mask dungeons (The Great Bay Temple? Inject it into my veins). Of course, a lot of people don't see it and TP is considered a great Zelda game, but for me changing a coat of paint at every dungeon is not enough to make them interesting... But even then, i wouldn't say "Zelda has lost its soul" at least, not for that reason.
No i would really differentiate two critics : First, the traditions were not respected by making the dungeons not as "global" and "interconnected" as in the N64 days (the DS games were soooo bad, I swear). Second, its soul started to deteriorate by having that "adventure feel" lost since you already knew what was going to happen when you reunited those three artifacts at the beginning and everything started to feel like a pretext to reuse an environment. Since I don't think Nintendo is really interested in my nerdy grievances about dungeon design, I prefer having them create something new. It may have a chance to develop into something I would cling to for other entries. After all, we had Zelda BOTW, Zelda BOTW 2 where you build vehicles, and now Zelda BOTW 2D where you play as Zelda. It feels like the formula can go a bit further before feeling as stale as the Zelda 3 structure was. (Even if I too loved Skyward Sword despite some of its problems.)
Yeah. My issue with some Zelda games like Ocarina of Time, Wind Waker, Twilight Princess and even Skyward Sword is that it's A Link to the Past again, in terms of both it's structure and layout. I get that the staple of the series is an hero saving an princess and protecting the artifact that made Hyrule from an demon king who wants to rule it. I don't mind that. But everytime I played one of those games, I feel like I'm playing ALttP for the 5th times with the same premise & plot as it's always been. I can excuse Link Between Worlds because it was meant as an sequel or an spiritual successor to ALttP, while also adding new things that weren't in the original. But for the rest? You could've done something an little bit different rather than being another ALttP.
@@jaretco6423 I really have never liked this argument that games having similar structure to a game that invented that structure means it feels like you're replaying that game. Basically every game series builds upon a single style of gameplay while iterating upon it and making it better. DMC, Metroid, Kirby, The first 10 final fantasies, ALL the forms of the mega man series, Persona and SMT, like every fighting game in existence. Why does this only apply to Zelda?
What I hate about BotW and TotK.
1. Stamina is used for Everything. From Climbing to Swimming, Sprinting to Gliding. Once you are out of Stamina you Fall, you Drown, you're Slow, etc. Absolutely HATE this System and it's Too Limiting in my Opinion.
2. Weapon and Shield Durability. This System is just Insanely Stupid. Playing Other RPGs I never had a Problem with Weapon Durability because I could Repair them myself or get them Repaired at a Blacksmith, or there wasn't Weapon Durability at all, and I like to Collect Everything.
3. No Storage Space, no Storage Boxes, or anything to Store your Items. I know that Other RPGs that are Older don't have this System, but they don't limit you on how much you can Carry, and they don't have a House for the Player to live in, unlike BotW and TotK that DO have a House for Link to live in, but no Storage to use to put any Items away.
4. Removing Weapons for NO Reason or for a STUPID Reason. The Elemental Arrows were Cool and Useful in BotW but where are they in TotK? Gone, because now we have to Waste Valuable Resources to make "Elemental Arrows" or "Elemental Weapons" for that matter.
5. Reusing Assests. Obvious but they Reused the same Asian Dragon Designs for the 2 most Prominent Characters in Zelda instead of using 2 Different Dragon Designs to make them Unique. What a Fucking Waste of Creativity.
Majorca’s mask is a game that it’s made out of almost only reused assets from Ocarina of time, yet everyone loved it
All the other points you made are pros in my book so…
Personally I like all Zelda but botw is definitely around the bottom of the list for me
If Zelda kept doing the “traditional” way, the series would be dead, but by going this route, they succeeded in making this franchise bigger and more risk taking, sure, tears and breath are not perfect games, in fact, I have a lot of problems with tears, but I think they can improve on it as it goes along, like it or hate the switch games, they kept the series from going into obscurity
Except Aonuma has said there’s no desire from them to return to something that people love, so the series is going to fall into obscurity regardless. Like, imagine how much better the story of TOTK would be if it happened in real time
????
Zelda is selling more than ever, they are just weeding out the fake fans. What the hell are you on about
I feel like there's a lot of cherry picking going on to support your points.
Breath/Tears have certainly split the fanbase, and I do understand the criticisms, but Zelda's soul wasn't story or dungeons. Zelda's soul is adventure. That's what Zelda games are: adventure games. "Traditional" Zelda games sought to express that adventure through linear narrative; Breath/Tears expresses it through exploration. Both are valid. The core soul of Zelda remains intact no matter which type of Zelda you play, at least from where I'm standing.
I will say, ignoring Echoes of Wisdom because it's a "2D Zelda" is a little silly. It seemed to me like you were dismissing it because it was an inconvenient counterpoint to the thesis of your video. That's a little pedantic, to be honest, because Traditional Zelda games span both 2D and 3D planes. Your arguments get muddy when you imply the 2 are somehow different and should be regarded separately; that 1 style is more Zelda than the other.
To me, Echoes is a step in the right direction. It's indicative of both Zelda styles-open-air exploration and linear direction-co-existing. That's the future we should want. Not one or the other, but both. There are people who love Breath/Tears because they *are* such a departure, just as, like you, there are people who pine for what came before, but it doesn't have to be a hard fall on either side of the line.
Finally, discussions over what is and isn't considered a true Zelda game have gone on since the series began, and the series has fluctuated back and forth as a result. Windwaker, for example, "wasn't Zelda" because it was seen as too cartoony. Now we have a "Toon" branch of Zelda games, but they're not the only Zelda games being made. Point is, Zelda is Zelda, and just because there is one style, it doesn't mean it's the only one, or that old styles are "dead".
I ignored echoes of wisdom because I couldn’t be asked to make the video any longer as I’d already been working on it for weeks before the game was announced 😂 but fairdos
Zelda's soul is it's story and dungeons. The incredible puzzles and atmosphere, the world and stories is what I like about zelda
@@linkalot7415Zelda botw is absolutely full of soul you have to be stupid to say otherwise but tears of the kingdom really is the first main zelda where there is no new strong direction or soul it really is just botw dlc in a way. Even botws story is good just has details hidden away to be found. Where Totk doesnt even try to do good world building or story and fails as a sequel
I never understood the debate about BotW/TotK not being "real Zelda" or "lost the soul of the series" for them being different, because no one, not one single soul (yes I'm making that claim) would say the 3D Sandbox style of Mario games starting with Super Mario 64 are "not real Mario".
Mario 64 plays nothing, and I mean ABSOLUTELY nothing, like its predecessors, yet no one questions if it's a "Mario" game or "retains the soul" of the series.
Donkey Kong (Mario's first game), Mario Bros (arcade), Super Mario Bros, Super Mario World 2, and Super Mario 64 all play fundamentally different, but I don't see anyone suggesting the radical changes made in each new entry caused the series to lose its soul.
Radical departures from established norms is fairly normal for long running game series:
Ninja Gaiden (Arcade), Ninja Gaiden (NES), and Ninja Gaiden (Xbox) are also all fundamentally different styles of games, but which is the most "true" Ninja Gaiden game?
There's many examples of games going through radical changes like:
Donkey Kong Jr. to Donkey Kong Country
Kid Icarus to Kid Icarus Uprising
Resident Evil to Resident Evil 4, etc etc etc.
Every single Zelda game expresses the spirit of adventure through exploration. Whether the story and dungeon progression is linear or open is irrelevant. There is always exploration to be found in every zda game. It's the blood of the series.
i hate the game too but yall are just nitpicking acting like totk is the only game that reused a map, and it wasn’t even actually reused, but rebuilt from the botw template
It's not rebuilt. it's reused
i really wish these videos would stop popping up. truthfully, they don't come across as sincere criticism. they just look like attempts to grab more clicks because some misguided people think that it's interesting to hate anything that's popular.
Am I not allowed to dislike something that’s popular?
@@linkalot7415 you are allowed to dislike things that are popular, but i am only pointing out that very few critiques of BotW/TotK come across as sincere.
however, your opinions could be explained by the fact that you "grew up" playing skyward sword, which indicates you are very young. for an old dinosaur like me, i witnessed MM, WW, TP, and SS all trying to imitate the ground-breaking OOT that came before them. 1 or 2 of these games would have been fine as a follow up to OOT, but not 4. there is nothing "soulful" about constantly trying to imitate an incredible game that already exists.
@@user-tj2xj9re7l incorrect. i believe in absolute freedom of speech in principle. people are allowed to criticise things, and equally, i am allowed to criticise their critique. that's a normal part of discussion and debate.
@@33LBI think it’s disingenuous to say that MM through SS we’re only trying to imitate OoT. I think rather, they all built themselves on the foundation that OoT created. Otherwise we can say that most 2d zelda titles after ALTTP we’re only trying to recapture what ALTTP had. With that line of thinking, people can even say OoT was only trying to imitate what ALTTP had only in a 3D space this time. I think it’s normal for series to build off previous entries so I would not call it imitation for pulling inspiration and creating newer entries on the foundation of a previous title.
@@taylormidnights3133 MM took the LttP and OOT formula to the extreme. all four areas of significance are placed at exact compass points relative to a central hub. complete a sequence of tasks in each area before entering the dungeon. get exactly one song needed in each area to enter the dungeon. get exactly one item in each dungeon which is invariably a bow or bow-related item.
SS also followed the OOT formula. complete 3 dungeons in the early game (I was about to write get 3 macguffins, then I remembered that SS doesn't even give link macguffins at the end of the early dungeons- just a sequence of "your Zelda is in another dungeon.") after completing the 3 dungeons, do a mid-game sequence then complete another 3-4 dungeons. also, get exactly 1 item in each dungeon and defeat the boss using said item.
why does it always have to be 1 item, and why does the item always have to be relevant to the boss...?
OOT got a free pass because it was the first 3D entry in the series, and I can confirm that OOT's open 3D world blew my mind at the time.
The sales figures show what the people want more than any internet commentary does.
how the legend of zelda became the center of a sudden large movement of delusional criticism from people who have no idea what theyre talking about and reach for complaints against perfectly normal game design due to their own deranged problems (which has been true since wind waker)
not shilling for nintendo btw. dont 100% agree with the price and absolutely encourage piracy. but cmon now.
Agreed. So much here is nitpicky af. I saw nobody complain that all insomniac games use the exact same map lol.
Silly and childish to dismiss critique like that. Everyone feels different about games and you have no place to judge like that.
@@majgoateeIt's almost like the fact that they reused the map isn't what most people criticize, but that the way in which it was done was unsatisfying and repetitive. Come on, if you watched basically any critique of the game you'd know people aren't inherently against the idea of reused content
@@majgoateewhen did I say in the video I was not okay with Zelda reusing maps but was with Spiderman doing it?
Don't lost
Couldn't agree more with your vid, mate, and good on you for throwing out such an unpopular opinion!
For me the heart of Zelda has always been linear progression puzzles, both in and out of dungeons. It could be that the dungeon is in the dark world and the only warp point in on a platform under a heavy rock so you come back when you have fast travel + Titans Gloves (LTTP) or it could be that the Gorons have become hostile to outsiders so you need to find iron boots to beat them in a sumo match and win their respect (TP). There is no progression of this sort in the new games - progression cannot be gated when you can just climb over or around the gate. The closest I can think of is the Lynel encounter in BOTW Zora, and that is spelled out for you.
Incidentally the quote about not wanting to go back to being restricted is ridiculous, most games are defined by their restrictions. Would football (soccer) be more fun if you had the freedom to pick the ball up and run? Would chess be more fun if you could move any piece in any direction? Hell, free movement on the Z axisis by definition less restrictive than controlled descent with a glider, but I doubt anyone would thank you for adding unrestricted flight to BOTW. You can argue that the rules implemented in BOTW are more fun than those in earlier games, but to use more freedom = more fun as a rule of thumb is nonsense.
I do get your point, however this is a bit of return to the initial formula from the original LoZ. TotK did make some changes and I think the Zelda team is still figuring out the balance of how to make a game like this. I don’t think BotW or TotK are the endpoint of this formula but rather the beginning and as they continue to hear feedback I think they will refine it and strike that perfect balance
...Have you played the original LoZ? It is not a sandbox or entirely open. Yes, you can go to a number of places in the beginning, however you can only progress by beating dungeons and getting their respective items and triforce shards, as a number of dungeons couldn't be entered without another item.
@@AmirPrinceling they built upon it, however the intent behind LoZ was the freedom of exploration. That's what I meant, not complete freedom and a sandbox style, the tech back then I doubt could've handled that. However they even stated this much in developer interviews about Breath of the Wild
@@reeseseater12 Just because Aonuma wanted something doesn't mean that was the goal of the rest of the team. After all, there's more than just Aonuma on the Zelda Team. It wasn't just technical limitations that kept certain games linear, but rather because the Team had a vision. Aonuma might have wanted a focus on gameplay, but not all of the team wanted that.
The history of the Cancelled Twilight Princess Sequel illustrates the varied opinions of the Team very well, as the majority of the team wanted a story-driven game like TP again, but Miyamoto denied that. So we lost the sequel and ended up instead with...Link's Crossbow Training. All gameplay, no story. And who would've guessed, that flopped.
@@AmirPrinceling as the director of the game I'm sure his vision probably strongly influenced the direction the game took. In fact you bringing up the Twilight Princess scrapped sequel kinda proves that those who hold power positions influence the directions of the games far more. I think we can take his words at face value since there's been absolutely no push back against that at all, not even rumors online
@reeseseater12 ...Obviously, the director determines what is included in the game or isn't, so whether we get something is up to the director's whims. Just because we haven't heard of people having issues with the direction on the Dev Team doesn't mean it doesn't happen, those people just never have much reason to say anything publicly and just be content with whatever happens.
This game could've been one of the best sequels of an video game ever made. But instead, it's one of the most disappointing ones. Not calling the game bad. But it was an huge miss potential. Majora's Mask is an better sequel than this and that was on an late 5th gen console.
I wonder how much of your perspective comes from having grown up with Skyward Sword, specifically (especially regarding boss difficulty! Lol)
On ToTK, you make a couple of interesting points, but your focus on the reuse of the topography blinded you to the fact that EVERYTHING else in the game changed, and in a very meticulous fashion. It would be illogical to completely change the topography of the world for a game that takes place a couple years in the future. Look at Red Dead for an example.
I think splitting 2D and 3D Zelda is really the way to go. 3D Zelda was starting to hit on the limitations of the format... they were running out of ways to innovate and needed to find a new direction.
ToTK was never going to be for everyone. Skyward Sword was also decried by a large portion of the fan base. It is the nature of software development. Hopefully the new 2D game will help scratch that particular itch for you. :-)
I love Zelda. Breath of the Wild was awesome. Zelda has never been about the dungeons for me. I don't own a Switch so I haven't been able to play TotK. 😊
Fair enough! I think Zelda is particularly unique as a series in that people like it for a ton of different reasons. Thanks for watching!
You know, one of my things I like the least about Zelda are the boss fights. I only do them to progress the story more or less. 😅@@linkalot7415
I don't care for the new style of Zelda and that's okay, not everything is for everyone, but I just wish there was something to take the place of traditional Zelda, a heroic adventure with quality puzzle filled dungeons with cool items.
I completely agree with you. Whilst some parts of TOTK were great, i think it should've just stayed a DLC, whilst it definately feels like they had some great ideas, thay practically recycled map and the plot and adding on more of the same kind of dungeon. Honestly I feel like BOTW's second DLC may have even had a better storyline than TOTK. Great vid, really did well in explaining everything
Thank you bro 🙌
I'm pretty sure there was a guy out there somewhere saying the same thing about every single Zelda game realease after the very first one. I only ever finished "Link's Awakening" back in the days, which I've always loved, but never really got into the rest of the franchise for various reasons. Only since the Switch released and made me play through "Breath of the Wild" and "TotK" did I find what I loved in Link's Awakening in the early 90's again. They are so good that it made me go back to the origins and play through Zelda 1. And that's when I realized how similar these latest games actually are to the first game in its very basics. So if anything, Zelda got it's "Soul" back as far as I'm concerned. Your statement would be much more real if you were talking about Final Fantasy.
Except the bulk of the content of Zelda 1 were dungeons that scaled in difficulty that gave you items that were often necessary for completing other dungeons. BotW and TotK do go back to open exploration similar to Zelda 1, but that is not the only thing that defines Zelda 1. It had 2 major aspects overworld exploration and dungeons that were intertwined. Later Zelda games all diminished one aspect in favor of the other including both the traditional (which favors dungeons) and open air (which favors overworld). In that respect BotW is no more similar to the original than traditional Zelda is, it just inverted the balance.
@@robertgamer3112 The bulk of BotW and TotK had areas that scaled in difficulty through having higher difficulty enemies in different parts of the world and exploration netted you items that would make traversal easier allowing you to reach areas you previously couldn't or had difficulty with via extra stamina and new abilities. The dungeons in Zelda 1 were as "intertwined" with the world as the shrines, divine beasts, and temples are (actually, the beasts and temples are arguably more intertwined as they actually affect the landscape) and overwolrd exploration is still a major aspect.
Oh brother. This is so tone-deaf. The first game is still far different from BotW. There are dungeon items and dungeons and an implied path to take, as you can't just challenge Ganon from the beginning like you can with Breath/Tears. The only similarity is how you can face some dungeons out of order, but that's aspect has been in several other games.
The series never changed as drastically until BotW/TotK. Prior entries only built up on the foundation established by Zelda 1, while BotW ignored all that and just became like every other Open-World Sandbox.
Lmao you didn't actually play Zelda 1
@@pitshoster401 I have, multiple times, and it's closer to the original than the series has been for a while. There's even enough small details and Easter eggs in it that pay homage to the original to make a vid out of it, some of which haven't really made any type of appearance until BotW (multi-tiered enemies denoted by color, 13 hearts to get the Master Sword (Magic Sword in the first game), the Zonai statues themselves bear a resemblance to the dungeon statues in the first game, the shrine entrances and how you go down when you enter them is reminiscent of how Link would enter dungeons in the first game, the list is extensive, they even used a modified version of the first game as a prototype to test ideas)
Man, just relax that linearity was not present in the first game and for some OG fans. OOT was way too linear, we never complained though and enjoy that game for all the other great elements it brought: storywise characters and above everything the music.
In short each title has strong and weak points, now we are in a phase of freedom and maybe in a anothef 5 years we go back to more storytelling. That variety and appreciation of it makes a real fan imho
I’m happy you were able to enjoy tears when I wasn’t 👍 thanks for watching
Yes that’s a good point, phases defined by different key themes - linearity or freedom, as you said - come and go. Zelda already showed an impressive willingness to change through breath of the wild, so who’s to say it won’t again in the furure?
Please tell me how to head straight to Ganon as soon as you start a new game in Zelda 1 then 🤷♂️
You grew up! That's most of the story.
I still enjoy modern games, it's not about "growing up" Adults can enjoy zelda too.
I grew up with the N64 era of Zelda, and I find most of your commentary to be absolutely on-the-spot.
The type of blind hatred you get on the internet for criticizing nu-Zelda is something I've never been able to wrap my head around.
"If you don't love this series ditching its core identity, then you're arguing in bad faith and a stupid asshole!"
Right? These comments are insane. Ppl are on here acting like a couple youtubers "tryna get quick clicks" are the only ppl who have this opinion....that's just not true. I wasn't a huge fan of BOTW BEFORE TOTK even existed or got teased. I did try, but I just couldn't enjoy it like I did older games. Ppl are on here claiming Zelda was never "about the story" or "about the dungeons" just completely disregarding the fact that's WHY so many people like the older games. Story, dungeons, and music are the REASON OOT still holds a spot as a top game of all time. You could play OOT as a kid, grow up, play it some more, and feel that pain of losing childhood, BUT you can also play it as a completely new player to the game as an ADULT and still feel the exact same loss of childhood emotions OOT brings. I don't understand why BOTW/TOTK criticism is the one that got people so butthurt to the point they'd call ppl "deranged" for not liking them. (seriously look thru these comments, one person actually said DERANGED. Come on????)
I disagree that Zelda lost its soul but I get why totk was a disappointment for sum
Reusing the same hyrule was a really bad decision imo it killed the novelty of an exploration driven Zelda game.
Traditionalist misunderstand why totk was a let down. It’s not the lack of traditions but it’s very much the map.
I still really like totk it’s in my top 5
I only bought totk bc you can build stuff like gmod, idc about the story
Im probably not gonna buy another zelda game though, especially if i cant build stuff in it
I havent even beaten either game cause they’re so boring and empty
I have the opposite criticism of Tears of the Kingdom. To me, that game you describe combining Breath of the Wild with traditional Zelda design is Tears of the Kingdom. If you tore down all the walls in Skyward Sword, you would get Tears of the Kingdom's world design. It's really evident in the areas with dungeons, everything you encounter is a tutorial for a mechanic you will end up using in the dungeon. The path to Rito Village is littered with wind and diving mechanic tutorials, many redundant ones to account for all the different paths players could take. This is more or less how the overworld worked in Skyward Sword, and it made the world feel too utilitarian, lacking in soul if you will, and it has a similar effect in Tears of the Kingdom (though not as badly imo).
Tears of the Kingdom is disappointing to me because, while Breath of the Wild reinvented classic Zelda design to work in an open world, Tears of the Kingdom added traditional Zelda design without sufficient modification to work with the open world. There's no attempt to compensate for linear content in a nonlinear progression. For example, the sage quests are much too linear and don't really work if you freely explore. If you go ahead of that progression, the game simply won't let you. Tulin straight up does not exist anywhere in Hyrule after you see his first cutscene in Rito Village until you speak to Harth. Tulin will similarly not follow you up the sky island chain, even if you've already been inside the temple or the nearby shrine and warp there, unless you find the very specific spot where he has dialogue about the flying ships.
I really do not understand these calls for a return to traditional Zelda with the new open world approach. Tears of the Kingdom was that return and it clearly disappointed the very same players calling for this.
Great vid...agree that Tears should be a DLC, and disappointing that the map is pretty much the same
I'm sure it's just a coincidence that the true soul and essence of this 35 year old video game franchise are the things that you, in particular, are nostalgic about
Actually its fun, creative, and has an amazing story.
Don’t quit your day job kid
As much as I can understand the disappointment of historical fans, and recognise some flaws in both BOTW and TOTK, videos like yours are a concentrate of superficiality and selective memory.
I'm tired of hearing this idea of classic 3D Zelda where dungeons were the dominant element: Skyward Sword, for example, only had 7 dungeons, and if I added them up, I'd get 30% of the game at best. And what was in the remaining 70%? 3 macro areas you have to return to THREE TIMES, linear, with questionable combat (mainly due to the controls) and puzzles integrated as best they could, but not always fun to solve.
And let's not forget the worst offender, Wind Waker, with only 5 dungeons, and far inferior in quality compared to its predecessors (and even Skyward), set in an empty and bare world design, with a flood (no pun intended XD) of boring filler content between both the main and side quests.
The idea that BOTW and TOTK are generic among the many open world titles is not only ridiculous, but dishonest, because in seven years only one open world has been recognised as a worthy disciple of Breath Of The Wild, and that is Elden Ring. As if that weren't enough, the following year saw the release of TOTK, which is so much better in terms of technology and design than its predecessor that it would be impossible for any other development team to even think of taking inspiration from it in depth rather than just in appearance (as Immortals fenyx rising does with BOTW, for example).
What's more, we're talking about titles that are far more consistent than your average 3D Zelda, because they offer a cohesive experience where strengths don't have to share space with filler, and they don't force you to play through interminable tutorials before the game starts in earnest. And in doing so, they bridged the gap with the top-down chapters, which had far better overworlds than the post-Ocarina chapters.
I agree that TotK is a technological marvel, but in terms of game design it is not much more special than BotW (I would argue it is worse). It barely even scratches the surface of what its own mechanics are capable of because the reused world is simply not built for them. Inspired and talented devs could absolutely expand on the emergent gameplay and verticality TotK offered.
Yeah that point about skyward sword not being made up of dungeons in its entirety is valid, it’s about 50% dungeons I’d guess. I’d agree that meaningless, largely uninteresting padding is a significant issue with that game. But it still felt more like it captured that Zelda spirit than breath and tears did to me. Thanks for watching though, and for writing such a detailed comment!
@@Charnutboy That's because you think about the content itself rather than the big picture: TOTK has by far the best designed open world I ever seen because just everything serve a bigger function, even a cave, because you can use caves to climb mountains (and they ALWAYS know where you're going to use Ascend, because they always make sure you'll see something new to catch your attention).
@@linkalot7415 Only considering the pre dungeons segments we can hope to reach that share, and Skyward pre dungeons are mostly bad except the two in Lanayru desert
@@zekrom34 I'm sorry, but content is literally one half of the bigger picture in game design. The fact that they made sure you always have something to do and go to without always making sure the stuff you're doing isn't repetitive/boring/underwhelming means they completed only HALF of a satisfying gameplay loop.
This video is 720p why should I take this seriously?
You own a switch lite and play tears of the kingdom at 30 fps 720p. Why should you take it seriously? 🤔
@@linkalot7415 sure bud
it didnt lost its soul, it just evolved
It took one step forward, three steps back.
@@justus9769idk that one 3d zelda on the 3ds is pretty mid, you can build stuff in totk, so i think its better
@@maddoxreddish4352 You mean the remakes? They're great, in my opinion. Also, having building-mechanics doesn't automically make a game better than another.
@justus9769 it was the one where you go in some tree? Idk i quit bc i didnt like it, and if im gonna play an open world game i wanna be able to build
@@maddoxreddish4352 Why? Is totk better than every other open-world game?
BOOOOOOOO L TAKE BOOOO BOOOOOO SHAME
Let’s agree to disagree then 😆 thanks for watching nonetheless!