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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ก.ค. 2024
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Video Credits: docs.google.com/document/d/1c...
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00:00 "Zelda stories have always been bad"
00:56 Why is this even an opinion?
06:00 "The Hero's Journey" is poor criticism
06:46 Ocarina of Time
17:37 Twilight Princess
24:50 Link's Awakening
32:20 Skyward Sword
43:13 Majora's Mask
55:31 Closing Thoughts
Today lets talk about probably the worst take I've ever seen in my life, the idea that Legend of Zelda has always had a poor story. This is in some vein attempt to defend Tears of the Kingdom and by extension Breath of the Wild (BotW), by proposing that TotK's story being bad shouldn't be singled out since Zelda has never been about the story. This is of course, total nonsense. The Zelda series has a long and storied history of excellent narratives, and today we are going to talk about five games in particular. Ocarina of Time (OoT), Majora's Mask (MM), Twilight Princess (TP), Link's Awakening (LA) and Skyward Sword (SS). All these games have wonder stories, and we are going to talk about why. - เกม
REGARDING USING OOT3D FOOTAGE FOR MY ARGUMENT:
You folks are absolutely correct that using it undermines my point about how OoT's revolutionary facial expressions aided in it's storytelling. Big L for me not to use original game footage there.
I edited this on a bad PC that couldn't emulate or capture footage, and all that I had access to on my hard drive was OoT3D footage so I used it for ease of editing. Same reason I used original MM instead of MM3D, because I had access to a MM cutscene collection on my hard drive. But I should have just got some original game footage off TH-cam, and accepted the quality loss.
However I would point out that if you look at shots from OoT and OoT 3D side by side, while there is no doubt the newer models are more expressive, it isn't by a tremendous amount. It is most a fidelity increase, and OoT Saria expresses the same feeling as OoT 3D Saria with just about nothing lost in translation
Nevertheless it is valuable criticism I will make sure to adhere to in any situations like that going forward!
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Please go give some love to Tyler, Wiz, and Bread, and thanks to them for helping with the video!
Tyler Townsend: www.youtube.com/@TylerTownsend
Wiz Catches Lightning: www.youtube.com/@wizcatcheslightning
www.youtube.com/@TheBreadPirate
Oh snap... I helped with a video? WHEN DID I DO THAT?! I can't remember. 😂
Right!? Glad this is out! Thanks for having me on this project 😎
While it true zelda was never bad the fact that people are gaslighting totk story. Saying that it is bad is crazy. Game may not been for you doesn't mean it's story was bad. It's story was one of best in the series
@@josevel2255To each, their own.
@@josevel2255imo it’s pretty bad with good moments. Writing is awful, story is told and hardly shown, it tries retconning older games, and it breaks its own continuity (Secret stones don’t give you new powers? Pretty sure Ganondorf didnt have gloom before his). Plus the way it’s told doesn’t help. My first dragon tear after the tutorial one with impa was the one where Ganondorf became the demon king- so yeah most of the story was spoiled from that one alone lol
the fanbase attempting to gaslight everyone (after totks bad story) by saying zeldas story was always bad was the most annoying period to be a zelda fan. the lore was half the reason i love zelda. good arguments!
I agree entirely, and I appreciate it!
This must be proof a lot of this fanbase is young. Either that or you’re in your own bubble too much. People have been calling Zelda’s story bad/weak for decades. I’ve been there through it all. The “lore” we talk about and claim to love so much is based on a lot of theories tied together with paper clips and string, much of which the developers may have even only leaned into when they heard what the fans were saying. And the rest filled with holes or inconsistencies everywhere.
Zelda story is only strong for Nintendo standards. It has always been minimalistic, simple and even weak compared to actual good video game stories out there. This has been said by so many people over the years, I can’t believe you’ve somehow never seen it.
The entire Zelda timeline is also not a single story. You can’t compare a single game to the entirety of Zelda’s timeline stuff and then act like the games have such great story telling. Yes, the best part of Zelda story is when you combine it all and look at the timeline. But game by game, each story leaves a lot of be desired on its own.
The best Zelda story in the series, mainline story anyway, is probably Link’s Awakening. It’s simplistic and needs a lot more added to it to make it deeper, but its theme and concept is pretty deep and kinda sad. But it could’ve delved into it SO much more. Majora’s Mask has good side quests but the main plot on its own makes for an interesting concept but without much meat on its bones..unless you delve a lot into side quests. OoT…is generic. Only by trying to look at subtext clues do you find much there, a lot of which isn’t as deep as some people think, or may be unintentional. It’s still nothing special.
@@Random1567 you're insane if you think old zelda story was weak (especially for 3d zelda). people were invested in lore of old 3d zelda because the overlap with other games was intriguing and left room for theories that didn't "fix" the story, but enhanced it. Matpat blew up because of his theory video on majora's mask that enhances the lore of an already great story. yes, story was always secondary to gameplay, but they never disregarded the importance of it, even going out of their way to create a prequel/origin story (skyward sword). Look at most zelda tubers, more of them are theory channels because discussing zelda lore was interesting. Now it isn't because totk has hopscotch lore that contradicts the timeline and, quite frankly, isn't interesting. why care about the story of a game if the devs don't care themselves?
@@J0J0JetzI’m repeating what I’ve heard throughout the years. So many people have called it weak, and honestly, they’re kinda right. So much potential and yet so bare bones on a game by game basis. Looking at the whole timeline to enhance the plot is kinda sad, don’t you think? You have to combine the entire series just to make the plot sound more interesting, when each game is nothing special on its own in terms of story. Other story games are great just by themselves, without the need for looking at them all together.
MatPats video is not only wrong, its kinda dumb lol But even pretending it’s good, it’s nothing more than a theory that doesn’t hold up with the series logic. It’s been debunked plenty by now, and it’s just an example of fans creating their own fun with a series that is relatively simple with its plot. That doesn’t make it true unfortunately, nor does it make it strong. The series itself does not make Link dead in that game, it’s a headcanon that’s long been proven wrong. Same with his “I fixed the Zelda timeline” video. It’s not the series having a good story, it’s the fanbase playing around with theories more than anything.
Honestly TOTK's story wasn't even bad tbh. Although there are some weird inconsistencies in the series (like the master sword in WW for example)
It frustrates me even more when people say that TOTK has a better story that BOTW. Sure it has more story but it's so damn shallow. The sages have no character, LITERALLY NO CHARACTER. They don't even have a face, whilst the champions in BOTW were some of the best characters. You don't have to look far to see some people say that urbosa is their favourite character. The story is BOTW is lacking in quantity but what there is is a heart breaking tradgedy that we have to piece together as we explore this grieving world. TOTK is just shallow. Ganondorf evil, ganondorf kill someone, rauru big sacrifice, zelda big sacrifice, link save the day, all happy in the end and Zelda's sacrifice didn't end up being a sacrifice. Also being told about the story after every dungeon is stupid. Secret stone? DEMON KING? Shut the fuck up every sage in the game
TOTK promised a better story but imo they gave a worse story
I think I largely agree!
@@NayruYT I wasn't very clear. In terms of story TOTK
I think Botw was also better at environmental storytelling than Totk because you could see the path of destruction left by the guardians. There were lots of little clues as to what happened 100 years ago, which made exploring a lot more fun imo.
Demon King? Secret Stone?
It’s 100% better than BOTW’s story and anyone who disagrees has -50 media literacy
"So what? Zelda games have always had bad stories." This reveals two things: 1) They agree that Totk's story is bad, and 2) They haven't played nearly enough Zelda games.
They absolutely have not played enough Zelda games
I am 90% sure these people only plays botw and totk.
"Zelda stories have always been bad!" -someone who's only ever played BotW and TotK
It's insulting for the whole gaming industry to call any Zelda game a "bad storytelling game". Most of the games were inspired in many aspects by Legend of Zelda (gameplay, story, music, etc.)
Absolutely!
Zelda stories often shine brightest when something isn't told. It's often subtle and allows you to dive deeper into it if you want and if you search for it. The sometimes dark implications, colorful characters, hidden worldbuilding in architecture, lost civilizations, pieces of lore in item descriptions or when you choose to let your companion tell you more about enemies or characters (Navi, Fi, Midna have these options but many choose to ignore it). It's funny how this kind of storytelling is something you'll find in dark souls. You can just follow the main objective and get a linear straight forward story telling experience or you take some time and effort to learn about the world you are in. It's quiet genius really
Yes the subtlety is such a massive factor in what makes Zelda stories thrive!
"The Well" in Ocarina of Time
I love when games do that. letting you discover parts of the story through exploring the world rather than hitting you over the head with everything. it's what gives games such potential for immersive storytelling.
Wait, does Midna? I’ll have to try it out next time
@@ObsessedwithZelda2 Nah my bad! It's only bosses. Seems I misremembered
i played link’s awakening remake for the first time while working on my totk video. and then i replayed it. and then again. and then i played the dx version, and then i played that again. i completely fell in love with link’s awakening, so much that it shot up to become my second favorite zelda game ever. so glad to see it recognized here for the beautiful, charming, and tragic tale that it is
Yes Link's Awakening is amazing!
Link’s awakening is my favorite game because trendy game fuels my gambling addiction
Link's Awakening is genuinely amazing.
Yooo that TotK video slapped!
Oh would you look at that, it's my new favorite youtuber, apparently.
Hell yeah, Link's Awakening is GOAT, also my second favorite, right behind Majora's Mask.
The story in Zelda games is what got me into the series as a whole. The story telling in Majora's Mask is probably what made me a snob when it comes to stories.
I love that!
Straight up, and everything connecting back with ocarina was so cool
@@J0J0Jetz Wait did it? I thought MM was kind of light on that really, it kinda loosely did with Navi but that didn't matter much with the plot itself or even really got resolved. If anything TP makes more references to the events of OOT arguably.
Same. It was actually the OOT/MM mangas and TH-cam theories about the hero of time, enabled by the hero’s shade, that convinced me to pick up OOT in the first place.
Imagine not wanting to do boring quests and repetitive gameplay and being called a "snob" for it.
Lets be honest with ourselves here. The people who say what the title of this video says usually have never played any other Zelda game before besides BOTW or TOTK.
I think that is very often the case for sure
Or they just have bad memory and haven't played any earlier Zelda games since they released.
@@cleverman383 Thats somewhat fair, but then now they look dumb for saying "TOTK is the best Zelda game" when they barely remember a game like OOT.
BOTW has good environmental story telling, but like 95% of it was basically treated as obsolete by TOTK. Not that the main narrative of either game is good.
The narrative and world of TOTK is more than bad, it takes a lot of what was actually good about BOTW and actively makes it worse.
The Zonai went from this elusive race of animal-headed aliens who might have been based on the buddist cycle of rebirth, and they were just turned into shiekah tech 2.0.
@@orangejuice3235 Good point. I 100% agree.
Also I think people overstate or are misled by just how much the likes of Aonuma contribute to the story. The Zelda Team is bigger than 3 people. While Aonuma mainly focuses on gameplay, now and then contributing to the story, the rest of the team is most likely the people who are responsible for the enjoyable stories we enjoy so much. The fact Aonuma prefers the style of BotW and TotK because of the fact they have a smaller emphasis on story and more about freedom makes it clear how much he himself cares about story.
But yeah, it's clear the rest of the Team is massively passionate about the lore and story. I mean, just look at how hard they fought to get TP 2 made.
I mean it depends right? Things like the wedding in MM and the relationship between the King of Red Lions and Link in WW are directly because of Aonuma's personal life experience so he clearly has quite a role if fairly major parts of these games are stemming from his personal history.
As far as BotW/TotK, the question is absolutely up in the air
@@NayruYThe could very easily be thinking "I wish I didn't have to write this much story, but if I'm going to write one, it better be the best story I can write"
@@hioman Exactly.
@@NayruYT One small correction: The wedding in MM was a collaborative effort among the development team. It was an idea that they had during the wedding of one of the team members, that just happened to take place during the time North Korea started to behave more aggressively towards other countries. They were talking about it during the reception, and apparently the idea of war breaking out during that very same wedding is what gave them the idea of the entire Anju and Kafei side story. Of course, Aonuma was part of that group, but also were Yoshiaki Koizumi and Mitsuhiro Takano (one of the main writers of the series who has been unfairly overshadowed by Koizumi).
King of Red Lions, however, was indeed all Aonuma. As a matter of fact, "The Wind Waker" is easily the most "Aonuma story" in the franchise, since he made the game for his then newborn firstborn, so he was the main writer too. He started writing the story of "Twilight Princess", but apparently he got overwhelm by the rest of the development of the game, so Takano took over, and he has distanced himself from the writing process ever since.
Literally the coolest story you've ever seen
Totk fans: Yeah this is fucking shit actually
Hahaha exactly!
Never understood this argument. I'm 21 now and I STILL tear up at Midna's goodbye at the end credits of TP. I STILL get emotional when Fi says goodbye in SS (even tho she barely had any character development until right before she sleeps....erm....n e ways...) I still tear up at the end of OOT. Like. Most of the games aside from the EARLIEST have a loooot of emotion packed in. What about, y'know, an entire island of beings just vanishing cuz it was a mf dream??? Come on ppl.
Absolutely, it is such a crazy thing for people to say
@@NayruYT Fr. You and your friends did a great job on this video! I hope those types of BOTW fans actually watch this and understand something lol
It´s so sad that my expectations for "tears" was set by the upgrade in immersion and storytelling from Ocarina to Majora´s.
what a disappointment it was :(
Very fair
Never trust a game hyping itself up to be a super immersive experience. The reason Majoras Mask has such great story telling is because of the 3 day mechanic. This allowed it to avoid many of the reasons making such a game is not practical.
It is also why you are not going to see any Triple AAA game as good as it in this generation. Because developers are scared of innovation. Free roaming world is not innovation. Nor is adding building machines as that concept was already well documented in games.
As far as I can see, this tired discourse lives up in the same premise of "simple characters are inherently bad written".
It's just one nonsensical, amateur claim, usually made by people who read only some footnotes on the subject once or twice.
Bugs Bunny it's a simple character, however, his antics are very well written, specially because you know everything about him already, and yet he pulls out one trick that you weren't expecting. You know the layout, you know the intentions, and you even know he WILL get his way out at the ending, but your don't know how he will do it. Hence the endless creativity of Looney Tunes , Tom and Jerry, and so on. The pretentious discourse on how EVERYTHING should be multilayered, dubious, shady, unreliable or mysterious in order to present quality, it's nothing but one amateurish theory that sounds intelligent, or exigent, but in reality it's mundane as it can be.
Yep it is tiring. Feels very similar to how every director nowadays feels like they need to "subvert expectations" for their work to mean anything
@@NayruYTexactly.
So much seems to have gone from all things are similar, to all things are similar but dark and everyone is secretly evil.
(Somewhat hyperbolic in my part, but when the heroes in an adaptation do worst things than the villains in the source, I get kinda jaded).
Straightforward can still be deep.
A classic good versed evil can still have fantastic story arcs.
And an asynchronous story can still have meaningful character growth.
Also this video pointed out something I've never noticed.
The trauma young again Link had to deal with was probably a way the world of the game (act of the goddesses/triforce?) to guide along a measure of recovery in Termina. (Hero's Shade notwithstanding - even a bit of making peace doesn't erase the wounds and regret).
@@Grandwigg I think I missed about all that stuff playing Ocarina. Like your friend being sad you are leaving yet you can just walk back to the village in game does not help.
If they didn’t care about story why make skyward sword the beginning of the timeline, what’s the point of making an origin story if the games are supposed to be their own separate thing
A very good point!
Exactly, it was made to be a origin story and went over the backstory of the master sword and why there is a cycle of reincarnation in the first place between Link Zelda and Ganondorf.
Nintendo has had a rough timeline for the Zelda franchise for most of its existence, with the only game that wasn't really thought out in any way before BotW or TotK being Four Swords Adventures. You can find them referring to the timeline multiple times in interviews before it was officially published in Hyrule Historia for the 25th anniversary. Its a shame they seem to have dropped it so suddenly.
@@Fa1seP0sitiveFour Swords Adventures was heavily and specifically thought out. Did you perhaps mean the first Four Swords?
@@JacobNintendoNerd99 no. The first four swords game was said to be the first game chronologically at it's point of release, which it did end up being in the official timeline. When four swords adventures released, they said it comes straight after four swords but it couldn't because it has ganon in it and he's sealed at the end. If ganon was sealed at the end of a game right before ocarina of time, ganondorf would never have been born. In the official timeline, this is the only one they moved from what they'd previously said in interviews. it's nothing to do with the story in the game, it's about how it connects to other games
everyone always discounts the portable zelda games
completely ignoring the sadness and regret of leaving words unsaid in phantom hourglass
(that last argument that linebeck and ciela had still breaks my heart with linebeck turning around before just as he fades away)
ignoring an innocent youth being corrupted just from the darkness in the hearts of man
ignoring a princess that actually fought along side link multiple times in a suit of armor to save her kingdom
these stories are every bit as good as oot, mm, ww, tp or ss
I mean one of the games here is Link's Awakening so I definitely didn't ignore them!
Spirit Tracks had a fantastic story too, and yes it's because of Byrne and Ghost Zelda.
From what I've seen with a few people, I think they expect Zelda to be similar to the Marvel movies up to Avengers Endgame. A collection of stories that build upon each other that eventually lead to a climactic confrontation. The reality is that they're more like a collection of individual tales. There are overlapping narratives and connections between games, but they are ultimately their own self-contained stories. This lack of buildup to something grand and massive seems lackluster, but the individual experiences within each story are epics all their own. I wouldn't go so far as to say they're the best stories ever written, but they are most definitely good stories that are very well written.
Yeah this. I sometimes see people expecting an "ending demises curse for good" game. Some kind of marvel endgame scenario. But the curse is just the explanation of why there is always an incarnation of demise's hatred, Link and Zelda. The curse is what allows Nintendo to play with the same setting/basic premise in different and unique ways. A legend told differently each time. We aren't going to get a "ending the curse" game because it would defeat the point.
@kit76149 exactly ending the curse would end the series
What would be so wrong about ending the series? They functionally have already. The new games are all but reboots, so the old continuity doesn’t really matter to Nintendo at this point.
@stanstanstan2597 I wouldn't say they're reboots necessarily. They're just set so far ahead of everything else that the way it connects isn't really apparent. Similar to our own world where new discoveries are being made to fill in gaps in history, the lost sections of Hyrule's timeline could be filled in as new games come out. They can always work backward from here to eventually connect it to the timeline. Even if they don't, though, I don't think it's really all that bad for Breath and Tears to be separate.
@@kakarikokage2514Idk man, the Zo so stuff and Secret Stones are hard to connect to the rest of the series, especially with the Triforce which is supposed to be the strongest artifact next to the Master Sword but these silly stones that come out of nowhere are suddenly way stronger
This reminds when back in the 2010s, youtubers claimed that Sonic was never good.
YES!! That is exactly what this is like, thank you for reminding me!!!
As a Sonic and Zelda fan I’ve been finding it very hard to follow either series and their fandoms in recent years, very much starting in 2020
@@InkyGhoul I can relate
Ahh I remember that. I'm slowly getting back to the series after the regurgitation of that made hesitant to play them.
@@docbaker3333 It's hard being a sonic fan sometimes but I think it's worth it when a good sonic game comes out.
"ego stroking Majora's Mask fans"
Hi, that me.
Hahaha excellent!
LETS GOOOO SO HAPPY TO SEE THIS ONE UP!!! Thanks for letting me be apart of it homie!!!
Thank you for taking part, I appreciate it as always!
HELL YEAHHHHH
Ever thought video about making a video about "underrated Zelda stories"? I think Spirit Tracks, Phantom Hourglass, and A Link Between Worlds might have something there!
It is a great idea!
I adore all of these games and their stories are amazing.
Unironically, top-down/2D Zelda supremacy on every level... except Link's Awakening. The constant textbox pop-ups are worse than Twilight Princess.
I'm a totk fan. I got into Zelda from botw. However, I have since played other Zelda games, so I don't like it when people put down the other games to defend totk, those other games are what brought the series to where it is now. I still like the game but I acknowledge that the story has its problems. Maybe it's because I'm not that attached to lore as other fans are which allows me to enjoy it but really the argument that all of Zelda's stories are bad is just stupid and childish.
That's the way to be!
These days people think simple stories are inherently bad, everything has to be either super cinematic or Fromsoft levels of complicated to be good or something. I cannot tell you how much I miss simple but effective storytelling, as someone who doesn't have the patience to dive into the lore of stuff like Elden Ring or sit through hundreds of cutscenes in Red Dead.
TOTK was an improvement over BOTW in almost every way, but both of the Switch Zelda games fall far short of storytelling standards that have been set by the rest of the franchise. OOT and MM tell some of the most engaging, meaningful, and impactful stories found in gaming as a whole, putting the Switch Zelda games to shame by comparison. One is perfectly capable of still enjoying BOTW and TOTK in their own right while still acknowledging this obvious fact.
Yeah I totally agree
I love BotW's story and think it's one of the best in the series. You thinking it's bad isn't a fact, it's your opinion. No Zelda story has resonated and made me feel as much emotion as BotW's. Stop pretending your opinions are fact. I agree that TotK's story is dogshit, but BotW's definetely isn't.
I personally really enjoyed the Tears story. But, the way they told the story is the biggest problem. Not to mention the.. more or less saying the same thing multiple times with the sages from their own slightly altered perspective. Cut that a bit, expand a bit more on the Zonai, and the people in the past in general, the whole thing with Mineru is so well done, along with the side story of Hudson and Rhondson's daughter being beautifully done. In all, those things, including that side story, are really well done.
The actual story telling via finding the tears, is slightly.. less well done. The viewing it out of context isn't great, it's a problem. That same problem is with Breath, telling the story via glimpses in the past, what's wrong with doing what other open world games do, and having you IN the story, not looking at what happened during the story in the past.
And yes, I agree, the hot takes on the stories always being bad is hot garbage.
DEMON KING??? SECRET STONE???
Haha but yeah I basically agree with you
In tears I really liked how Zelda and ganondorf were done personally. I have never felt so motivated to save Zelda and utterly destroy ganondorf in a Zelda game.
I'm really surprised you didn't talk about wind waker! It's probably my favourite zelda story, with themes like growing up and moving on from the past. Great video tho! You deserve wayyy more subs
Kind of you! Wind Waker is actually my favorite game ever, I just didn't include it because I wanted to have some level of impartiality here haha. As well I think explaining why the story is good is a little bit more difficult than with the other games, because the other games have strong themes that can be pointed to, whereas with Wind Waker, it's greatness kind of comes in the sum of its parts, which takes a while to explain!
I've noticed that this has become a very common defense for anything lately especially for twitter takes
They've always try to gaslight people into thinking Old thing is bad and new thing is on par (Which ironically paints the thing they're defending as terrible as well) I never understood this whole thing of defending something why tearing other things down arguments
Yeah I have definitely noticed it outside of Zelda as well
they haven't experienced the full series.
same kinda thing since like 2011 where people take others' word for it that "2011 Hunter x Hunter is better than 1999" without actually watching past the old anime's episode 10 where the animation starts to go crazy & just assume its the case that the newer one is better - or commonly from the time as well "Hunter x Hunter is better than One Piece" without them watching/reading the then-500 episodes of One Piece - so on & so forth. the social media problem, internet telephone, game of real-life Telephone...just so many misunderstandings as life has happened
People really need to stop giving Twitter checkmarks the time of day or any trust or focus. Twitter exists now purely to spread misinformation, hate, anger, and ragebait. It's just a bunch of goofy losers desperately trying to keep their sub count up enough to stay relevant
I think it's a cycle. People see others tearing down stuff to prop up what they like, so they do the same. For example, when BotW came out I absolutely loved it, but I saw people tearing it down and comparing it to OoT. People got mad at me and called me names because I said I loved BotW. This made me angry so I started doing the same thing as them: I started tearing OoT down to defend BotW. Basically we see other people being toxic and we become toxic ourselves because we're angry. It's a cycle that's difficult to break when you spend time on the internet
Phenomenal video! I'm so glad to see people still sharing their passion and appreciation for these wonderful stories and giving Zelda the acknowledgement it always has rightfully deserved. You made many very good points that I've been thinking about for over a decade and this new disingenuous discourse in the fandom has left me quite appalled too, it's a ridiculous thing to claim. But even regardless of all that, thank you in general for making this! I really believe this series should get more credit for its storytelling and emotional weight.
That is very kind of you, thanks so much!
Realizing that 17 year old (Adult Link) is just a 10 old who slept for 7 years. Awaking mentally as a child in an "adult's" body faced with destruction of Hyrule. That shit shook me hard. All I could think about was my child. Still my Favorite of all.
He gets hit both directions! Becomes a 17-year-old with the mind of a child, lives an adult's experience, and then is sent back in time to his child body with the memories of his adulthood. Poor guy!!!
@@NayruYT yes. He out of time and place. Since day one. Maybe Zeldas brother. If you buy into that. I wish I could play through it for the first time one last time..
The first time I played OoT was in Walmart display n64 didn't know what I was playing but I remember it was at the temple of time
@NayruYT true, but he still has a mind of a child
There's text in majoras mask that suggests it, such as him viewing the stiff between Kafei and Anju as "adult matters" that he doesnt understand (showing he probably still views himself as a child as well) and there is an innocence like not understanding the ulterior motives motives
Ofc being sent back in time still inst easy as he probably feels alone in that no one knows what he went through and has no one to confide in
To echo some comments here, I thought the story to TOTK was actually good. Some good characters and pretty huge moments. There are just certain flaws in the execution (logic gaps if you did things out of order, the repeated post-dungeon cutscenes, the ending being a bit too easy and needing a better explanation).
WW and OOT will always be my GOATS for story.
Very fair!
31:43 as you describe the ending of Link’s Awakening, a game I have played many times and been touched by, I am struck by how much of an allegory it is to completing games in themselves. What is the satisfaction we get from completing the game and leaving the dream world and all of its characters behind to return to our real lives as the wind fish and link do to theirs-whether we are soaring in high skies and faring fortunately in our existence or adrift the last piece of our broken vessel, alone in a vast sea? As the wind fish says, the dreams will always exist, so long as we remember them-perhaps it is what Link sees in the sea gulls, maybe thinking of Marin and her own dreams of flying away, as the added cutscene suggests? Just as our own lives can become more meaningful and beautiful, no matter their circumstances because of these “dream” stories. Fantastic game, and fantastic story.
But, of course, for me, Majora’s Mask will always hold the trophy for greatest story-telling in a Zelda game. However, I have to add that I think, without the context of Ocarina of Time, Link’s own personal story suffers in that game. But that’s true of any true sequel-they’re not stand alone, hence why they’re a sequel! But the true success of the story of Majora’s Mask for me are the reflections of friendship, self-worth, duty, leadership, death (like you discussed), suffering/healing (as you also discuss), family, true love, maturity (in a different way from OoT in that the “adult” mind is now stuck living in a child’s body as opposed to sort of going back and forth between the two times/mental states as presented in Ocarina), and soooo many more themes, I could go on and on due to the side quests and the repetitive nature of the three days which give a kind of “what is the point of it all?” feeling when your hard work must be undone at the end of the cycle each time and the impossibility of “doing it all” due to the scheduling of the many many people-one can’t be a hero to everyone all the time-a hard reality to swallow for an actual hero who wants to help.
Great video Nayru, as always! You are exceptional, thank you for your hard work and that of the collaborators!
Your bit about LA is great, and I wonder if that is why people enjoy achievements so much, because they serve the same purpose as Link seeing the windfish at the end, to sort of confirm that the dream was real
I think it's also interesting that Aonuma puts a lot of content from his dreams into the Zelda games...that dream imagery carries so much symbolism that it's a perfect match for a visual/interactive medium like video games, and is able to pass onto us impressions of the themes of the game instead of out right telling them to us.
Nayru and little bean green cross over when?
@@FSR-1345 let's get it!
Immediately checking your channel out, you have some cool video ideas!
Ah yes, the Hero with a Thousand Faces is a bad story. The Internet is full of brilliant individuals.
Pure geniuses!
Oh man, this video was NEEDED big time, thank you. Great stuff Nayru, Wiz, Tyler and Bread, this was an awesome watch!
Thank you Geist, means a lot!
I wouldn't say Zelda stories are ever super deep but I would agree that they aren't bad by any means. Even the simple ones like in the original Legend of Zelda aren't bad, they are just simple stories meant to give you a goal to beat. And games like Link's Awakening and Majora's Mask have shown that you can take Zelda stories in interesting ways.
I think Majora's Mask is genuinely deep, but I also don't think a story needs to be "deep" to be good! And you are correct that even in their simplistic forms, the story for the NES original is definitely serviceable
I think Zelda is a series that was always pretty good at managing to give simple, short stories and far more complex character-drive stories equal spotlight and importance, and even those that don't have much story present interesting ideas for their time in that time given.
Even Wind Waker which is at a glance simple and childish tells the story of a world born from the back of a dead old world and not only covers some notably darker subject matters but depicts the trio in their most morally grey, with Ganon being more of an anti-villain desperate to undo his own destruction even to the detriment of the new world and 'Zelda' having grown up almost as a reflection of the life and circumstances that made him the way he is. A lot of this isn't focused on or emphasized as much as it probably could have been but the ideas are still clearly there.
It also delves into an interesting dynamic, which is that Ganon and the king of Hyrule are too similar in their thoughts and desires, as both were desperate to bring old glory back, and the king's focus on tradition itself actually was to a detriment when having 'Zelda' fill the role she normally fills only resulted in her being taken anyway. This even culminates in him deciding neither he nor Ganon have reason to exist in this new world.
Honestly, until recently it felt as though everything beyond Ocarina, after changing major writers, had a much greater focus on distinct, more complex story-writing and even tried to establish Link as more of his own person with a proper hero's journey (even Ocarina had hints of this).
The classic, more simple stories would usually be relegated to portable titles but even they would often have something to them that allows them to stand out, such as Link Between Worlds' inversion/perversion of the major aspects of the three pivotal characters (Hilda being short-sighted and willingly cruel from desperation, Ravio being too much of a coward to hold to his duty and being unable to council his charge in time of need, and Yuga lacking much in physical strength and relying on siphoning power from others to achieve perfection).
WW Link is not really morally grey in any way I can remember. Infact, OOT Link is closer to that description since he is ready to do some fairly nasty things to progress.(Some of them are mandatory, but some are also just optional) Ruining the well by draining the water, plundering graves, cheating at fair, unrigged games(even if they are gambling), potentially leaving a petty thief dead permanently, etc.
@@lpfan4491 Except I said most morally gray trio. I'm not only using Link as a frame of consideration and I never was.
Link in WW is the middle ground. He at first went on his journey for personal reasons; that being to save his sister from the entity he only knew as Ganon. He is not driven by a world-saving task by a higher power (at least at first) but his reasoning is still largely selfless and courageous.
However, when comparing the way Ganon carries himself, being more tired, sad, remorseful but ultimately still arrogant and undeterred, or 'Zelda'/Tetra who has a history of theft and is known to be self-serving and who surprises her followers when showing concern to their other counterparts there is no denying they are both far more morally gray by comparison. It is not as much of a cut and dry good versus evil.
While Ganon does not stop from his actions, and him talking about it can be seen as an excuse, he does give an explanation and reasoning for his actions that are understandable, while also making it clear he views the gods as cruel hypocrites.
By contrast, while their depiction is largely romanticized, Tetra is ultimately a pirate. She steals and harms others, even if she is shown to at her core still be altruistic when it comes down to it.
Pacing and delivery can make a simple story entertaining or a great story drag on. Zelda knows /how/ to tell a story
I’m so glad I deleted Twitter.
I should follow suit tbh
I feel the way about the story telling of ocarina the way I think others feel about the Star wars trilogy. It's not just a mono-mythic story but THE mono-mythic story. Especially in regards to the medium of games. Being able to see subtle religious allusions to our real world helped to make it feel all the more impactful for a young man entering his teen years. The skyward sword subplot of Zelda knowing that Link loved her, and manipulating him to become a hero with those emotions also really hit me in my early adult years. Windwaker even went as far as to humanize Ganondorf to be not just a tyrant, but a king who wanted to bring the prosperity of another nation to his own people. I've never understood the argument that Zelda has never had good stories, so I'm glad you've spoken out against this idea circulating around the community.
Yes everything here!
Idk what people are talking about, time and time again Tloz games have been some of my favourite stories in gaming and media as a whole. Link's awakening was the first piece of media to make me cry, i teared up this year replaying wind waker and twilight princess, skyward sword i played when i was young and that game's story sticks with me much more than something like Tlou or Rdr2. More than that Zelda is my favourite franchise ever partly due to stories, and if i had to pick one i like more than the rest i can't, because in my eyes: Totk, Tp, MM and Link's awakening are all perfect games. and yes Totk is perfect imo, and I personally love the story there, and in botw, i teared up at the end of both. Man Zelda in general is just so good.
Zelda is in fact, really darn good
TotK doesn't just have a bad story, it has a story that is a slap in the face to its visual inspiration from Studio Ghibli. They turned Ashitaka's evil cursed arm into Link's funny physics toy arm.
Praising Majora's Mask's story while not praising Ocarina's is to fail to understand either.
As for the hero's cycle, there are barely any good stories that don't adhere to it. Yes the "plot" isn't sophisticated in OoT, but Eastern storytelling doesn't give the slightest shit about plot, Eastern storytelling revolves around thematics and symbolism which are found in droves right across the Zelda series. Stories that obsess over plot with no regard to thematics also suck.
TotK kinda felt like it was trying too hard to be an anime. Spirit Tracks' story was straight up an anime.
Byrne is basically just Sasuke Uchiha
I would be 100% fine with a Spirit Track's anime adaptation.
i do not regard any person who said that the story of zelda doesn't matter as a real fan in the slightest.
I'm surprised you didn't mention Pamela in the Majoras mask section, one of the best parts of the game Imo. Amazing video btw.
Thank you very much! And yes that definitely was a great moment as well. Too many to name them all, what a masterpiece!
I fully agree with you on how subtle OOT's story was. Despite its apparent "knight saves the princess and the kingdom" story line, it presents some truly fascinating elements if the player is curious enough.
What struck me during my first playthrough was the implied dissonance of this Link's fate, it's not explicitely stated, but the way his experience of time and childhood was deeply altered for the "greater good" left a deep impression on me.
There were other things, but the fact that he was assigned this duty and that it forced him to go through an experience no one else ever had was incredibly moving to me, even back when i was a young teenager.
Yeah it really felt like such a bitter ending and it gave a level of melancholy to the Hero of Time that I've always really appreciated
Twilight princess and its story and cinematics makes totk look like dogwater.
Haha fair!
Cry harder
Twilight Princess is the only game in the entire franchise that managed to establish an interesting story in its first half, and then managed to completely ruin it in the second half, and this being a smaller game with a linear narrative lmao. Unfortunately, nostalgia prevents fans from seeing this, at least some of them, since TP has a good amount of haters, I'm not going to say it doesn't deserve it.
@@schutze1399 In a bubble perhaps, but what about Windwaker? Or Majoras Mask? Or even (as much as I struggle to enjoy the gameplay mechanics and it carries issues that would carry into the Switch games (lack of enemy variety for one) Skyward Sword... The point is Twilight Princess is the weakest story in the post Ocarina period of the franchise, and it still trounces TotK.
I love TP's story!
I just wish we’d get more reoccurring antagonists besides Ganon that could appear alongside him. Hopefully Veran, Onox and Vaati make a big comeback one day.
Absolutely!
I can see Vaati making a comeback given his "missing" status in the Adult and Downfall timelines but Onox and Veran are hardly able to comeback given their backstories as "children" of Ganon in the Downfall Timeline giving little plausibility for them to return after their (SPOILERS) deads in the Oracle duology. I feel it's already due time for _new_ villains to come around to spare the series from becoming stale through the rehashing of the same villains over and over again.
I agree
@@javiervasquez625true but they only die in the downfall timeline, and Ganon and Vaati have died many times and seemingly return
@@DjDeadpig They were *born* and died in the Downfall Timeline specifically, giving little incentive (and convenience while at it) for the Gerudo Ganondorf from the Adult and Child timelines to have also created them in the aforementioned 2 timelines. Meanwhile both Vaati and Ganondorf were both born _before_ the splitting of the timelines explaining why both have the ability to appear across multiple games in all 3 timelines. Onox and Veran don't have such a benefit as the 2 were specifically created in the Downfall Timeline while Ganon was sealed within the Sacred Realm confirming their existence to be an isolated event within this specific timeline and by extension making it impossible for their random creation to take place in either of the other 2 timelines.
I would disagree with the idea that tears of the kingdom had a bad story, what it does have is poor presentation of its story, so the good backbone gets shot like 2 dozen times on its way. It has poor terminology and retells part of its tale 6-7 times instead of expanding on it, it also refuses to tell its story in order, leaving the players discovery of it mostly random and taking away a lot of the potential investment to its twists and turns. It has in its core what it needs to be one of the best but it’s buried by poor decision making so as it is; it’s hard to rate it above a C.
I can definitely agree with that
thanks (sorry part of it got deleted when I updated it last time so I was adding it back)😅
I’m bad at using the TH-cam app xD
The biggest issue in the way it tells its story is that it uses the exact same method as Breath of the Wild, while the story itself is clearly meant to pan out in a way EXTREMELY different from Breath of the Wild. Even if the correct order for viewing the Geoglyphs was in the Forgotten Temple, there should've still been a linear lock behind viewing them. An incredibly easy fix would've been to have a more visible smoke plume or light signal whereever Impa was at the Geoglyphs, and color code them. Don't allow the player to unlock Geoglyphs out of order. Have green smoke or green light emanate from Impa's beacon at the Geoglyph that can be viewed, and red at the ones that can't. Boom. The story is un-spoilable.
@@mercury2157 yeah I definitely think even a grouped order where 2-3 are active at a time would have helped. Stories as an art form are usually somewhat linear. Or multi linear, multiple loosely tied plot lines , trying to write something satisfying with no dedicated ordering sounds like an impossible task. And by forcing players to experience it in that way , by not indicating ordering in any way that most players would discover, the plot was bound to suffer.
"X WaS AlWaYs BaD" is such a meme of an ""argument"". Every single defender of something falls back on this argument and it's honestly just so pathetic. It's just plain whataboutism. And even if one thing was bad in the past (99% of the time it wasn't)... why does it have to be bad now?? We're critiquing the CURRENT thing, not the past thing. As in, the most recent entry in a franchise or a series. If we were critiquing the past thing, we would BE CRITIQUING THE PAST THING.
People are so braindead and have just accepted mediocrity for so long their minds have grown numb to it
THANK YOU. The whole “Zelda game stories are bad” idea has been around for a good while now, even outside references to the switch games, and as someone who played every single one, it’s honestly baffling. When I would ask someone who has that opinion “what about Majoras Mask?” They’d say something about how thats the only exception. When I’d ask about like, 6 more games and they’d shrug and not change their stance while not really making any counterpoints, it becomes impossible to take their opinion seriously. I mean hell, Skyward Sword is one of my very least favorite Zeldas but I am not stupid enough to sit here and say its writing and characterization is bad.
And for another thing, just because a story doesn’t have hundreds of twists and like 50 characters with concurrent arcs, and a philosophical breakdown of the nature of humanity, doesn’t mean the story is “bad.” Cinematic, movie-games are fine, but judging every games story as if it were a book or a movie is missing so much of what makes game stories unique. When people call video game stories bad, I wonder why they’re even playing a video game when clearly they were trying to find a book?
You want to see a game that TRULY doesn’t give a rats ass about its own story? Play Sticker Star and see how long it takes for you to get a headache. That is what a game with no story and soul looks like, among other things.
Look point is, what do these people think? That Zelda and all of its characters are so beloved and iconic because ONLY the gameplay? Zelda gameplay is fantastic but you don’t get people cosplaying and making fanart and theory videos off of gameplay alone. If the stories of these games have always been bad and clearly havent been important to its success, then why do they still go out of their way to place a lot of effort and time into making said stories? Clearly, to Nintendo (and to the people complaining about the switch game’s stories or anything to that nature), story is still pretty dang important.
Why is subtlety and worldbuilding and art direction and world design and the actions of the player not enough for these people? It’s fine for it not to be your thing but to suggest that it’s bad is a whole other argument that you’re going to need to try much harder to substantiate.
Oof, didn’t mean to rant. Good video.
This was such a reassuring video to watch after all the infuriating gaslighting going on about the topic and how "I just got old and the stories feel more mundane"
Thank you for reminding me how much I love the stories of these games and how much they impacted me when I was younger
Thank you for watching and leaving such a nice comment!
Almost every story in every Zelda game I have played is fantastic. I don’t think a Zelda game has had a story I haven’t liked.
What about the Tingle games 🤔
I grew up with Zelda. I pretty much played every game and honestly, it's not even about "story good, story bad". I love TP. My fav of all time. The music, lore, story - everything. How people perceive the story is subjective, TP is getting quite a bit of hate too.
The difference of Botw and Totk is that the story is not really getting told. You're getting a bit of an introduction to what's happening and immediately thrown into the game with the plot and goal already explained and in sight.
The "memories" in both games don't really add anything to the story. It just feels like a bit of bonus lore that never connected to anything else anyway, especially since it's not even in order. But even then it would just be "Find out what happened to Zelda" and you gotta watch a few clips to see what happened, that's it. The game wouldn't change at all.
Every other Zelda game is telling a story while you're playing. As if The "Legend" of Zelda is being written with every step you take. There is character development, actual unforeseen events that might even change your current objective and maybe even a plot twist. I mean just look at Midna's Lament, how that section even came into place and how it changed the game.
But I guess that's the downside you have with that "open air" concept with no restrictions. You can't tell a live story with no restrictions or linearity. The "Legend" is already there and you just need to find out what happened.
Don't even dare to call that "Zelda pulled up 4 times in 4 regions and did some baddie stuff 😱" story. That is honestly just a pathetic excuse to at least try to give the players a reason to visit the shitty "dungeons".
It just saddens me.
A lot of people seem to think "lore," "plot," and "story" are closely related or are even the same thing, but they're not.
Lore is background detail, added context to the setting to give the world more flavor. Sometimes it's tied to the story, but it doesn't have to be, and some stories are completely contained in one setting and period of time and don't have any lore. Dark Souls is a great example of using lore to create intrigue and give the player a believable world to reside in.
Plot is the point-to-point events of the narrative, the sequences that connect together to give a framework for writing a story, but a story doesn't always need to have a plot. Metal Gear and the Xeno games are known for having some incredibly complex plots.
A story is the "point" or "message" that a storyteller is trying to convey to the audience. They are trying to add their perspective on life, death, humanity, relationships, philosophy, or some other idea by demonstrating a character's development or using metaphors. This is where Zelda really shines if you ask me. The games may have simple plots and sporadic lore, but they make for incredibly effective stories. Ocarina of Time is a story about growing up and tackling the responsibilities that come with adulthood that feel forced onto us. Majora's Mask is the story about how people lose hope in the face of certain destruction, but also how helping each other can help us regain hope. Breath of the Wild is a story about how we react to our lives being uppended by catastrophe, how we put the pieces back together, and how we learn to carry on.
Thank you for this video. It's always been maddening to me when people use this argument. Simple stories are not categorically bad, they can still be well written. Just look at Dr. Seuss.
Furthermore, if someone genuinely believes that Zelda stories have always been bad, then the fact that people who've loved those stories are disappointed by TotK's story should be *really* telling of its quality.
A good point!
The prologue of the game felt amazing, it seemed like yeah this is a new game. But as soon as I went through the sky islands and the depths where every area is the same I felt so disappointed. Those people that kept saying it’s dlc were unfortunately right.
I hate the arguement of "the story has always been bad" or "who plays X game for the story" it's like bruh what.
This is why I love Majora's Mask so much which makes the new sequel game for Breath of the Wild, Tears of the Kingdom, feel like a pale comparison when it comes to impact and weight.
Another issue is that the last two games have been more in the aftermath while the story was told earlier outside of our control, in BotW we're picking up where Link had left off. In TotK we're cleaning up the mess Ganondorf left behind like a janitor while Zelda is experiencing the past and fighting in the Imprisoning War.
All I can say is that if Link had gone back in time with Zelda, the map could've been different (yet still be the same), all the characters would've been new, we would've been in the action from the start and MAYBE even save Sonia and Rauru from having to die.
Also Spirit Tracks has the been expressive and most active princess since she's a companion in that game. While Link Between Worlds is the closet game that combines the openness of open world game play with deep story from the older games.
Spirit Tracks is a tough one for me because I genuinely think it has some of the best character writing in the entire series, including in comparison to the 3D games, but I think the plot itself is pretty bad. So while I think it is brilliantly written, I have a hard time considering the story good. If that makes sense at all lmao
I dunno, like MM whenever you beat a major dungeon stuff in said region changes to reflect that giving it impact and weight. In TOTK you are finishing what was started and finishing Ganondorf for good. It feels personal when Ganon has been a major thorn in your side for 2 games now which spans over a century at least.
@@jaydenc367 What makes me disagree is that he's lounging around down in the depths regaining strength while Majora only gives you three (in game) days to get stuff done. Sure you can reset the three days but its the feeling of importance AND pressure that makes me like MM more.
@@NayruYT It kind of reminds me of Zelda II in that regard, a demo steals Zelda's body so it can be possessed by a Stronger demon. Kind of like how the enemies in Zelda II need link's blood to resurrect Ganon.
Admittedly encircling the plot around trains might've been its biggest weakness to be fair. Though finally a zelda game where she's the companion makes it at least bearable to enjoy. Too bad TotK wasn't like that.
Majora's Mask is a great game with a good story, but that game is not a sequel, it is nothing more than a game that takes place after Ocarina of Time that makes a maximum of 3 references to its predecessor, 2 of which are poorly done and leave you confused, the other would just be an Easter egg. Wind Waker is the true sequel to Ocarina of time. The ending of OOT leaves many questions unanswered, and instead of MM answering them, it throws you into a parallel world with no explanation and even more questions arise, questions that to this day have no answer, for example, what is the land of Termina? Wind Waker answers the questions left at the end of OOT and even concludes the story for real, in another timeline of course.
As a TotK story criticizer (who still loves the game otherwise), you sir are unbelievably based for this video. "Old" Zelda games were always known for their puzzles, enemies, music, and STORIES. I and my entire channel are quite literally proof of Zelda stories being deep, resonant, and... good. So thank you for making this.
May our lord and savior the Algorithm bless this video and may it soar high to reach as many other Zelda fans with this message as possible. Amen.
I’m a long time Zelda fan and Majora’s mask is my favorite in the series, but I also don’t think that ToTK’s story is that bad??? My favorite part about the switch entires is how they characterize Princess Zelda in Particular, and I feel like ToTK did a better job connecting the players current actions in the present to Zelda’s actions in the past than BOTW but I guess I should make my own video huh 😅
I'd love to watch it if you did!
I personally think that Zelda's stories aren't bad, but they aren't anything insanely extraordinary. I'm not gonna compare Zelda's stories to something like Mother 3, Rule of Rose, etc, because those games are especially story driven, while Zelda has a stronger focus on the gameplay. Zelda is my favorite game series, and in a bubble, the stories are great, but in the wide realm of RPGs, it isn't anything too particularly standout. That does not mean they are bad at all. I love Twilight Princess's and Wind Waker's stories, and my god, Majora's Mask is really good. I think BOTW and TOTK had the roots for a really good story, but didn't quite stick the landing.
I mean I don't know, I would absolutely feel comfortable putting Majora's Mask alongside something like Mother 3
you are so correct on the story thing in the start of this video. them looking at gameplay first does NOT mean they don't care about story. and even moreso, people who think they don't care about the timeline are wrong( atleast up to botw) . each game thought about where the previous game was in relation to the story and where the current one fits. its thought about greatly. just look at the personalities of the ganondorf shown in the child timeline compaired to the adult. 2 ganondorfs from the same place but different experiences. its clear as day
Also people talk about gameplay vs story as if they're mutually exclusive
I hate it when people forget the 2D-games. Some of my favorite Zelda Titles are 2D Zeldas! Thank you for including Links Awakening and I agree, the story is superb for it's time - very philosophical
Absolutely! I would never dream of leaving it out
I know the 3DS OoT version looks better but why are you using that version in comparison to games around '96/'97? It doesn't look revolutionary when you use the remake version from years later. I have the N64 virtual console version on Wii, so yeah, it's a great game with a good story but at least show the original version....
In hindsight you are correct it would have been better to use the N64 version! The truthful reason is that I edited this video away from home on a pretty weak PC that can't emulate or capture, and all I had in storage was OoT 3D cutscenes! But your criticism is very valid
Me spending my whole internet life growing up hearing about how awesome and personally impactful Ocarina, Majora, Twilight, Awakening or even the simpler but enjoyable plots of Link to the Past and oracle games are only for the same fanbase to turn around and try and tell me "eh no wait the stories always sucked" to justify totk's being straight doodoo water has been quite a ride indeed.
While they've definitely gotten louder as of late, I've had to deal with this "Zelda story bad" crowd for decades. And while some of them were indeed people who had never played a Zelda game, the majority of them were Zelda fans, only they apparently went out of their way to ignore the story in every Zelda game they played, like it was "getting in the way" of the game. Not only that, they'd act straight-up OFFENDED when other people liked these stories, like they were "enjoying the game wrong".
I think of zelda stories as being like a good short story. Not wordy, not extensive; but they can be deep and powerful.
Absolutely! I often enjoy Le Guin's short stories more than need novels for example
i wanna day that botw did have a good story, my favorite story. and thats because of all the environmental storytelling and how u need to seek out the memories and everything. you got as much lore and story as u put effort and curiosity into the game
That's totally fair!
Also the Champions and Zelda are great characters
I was 10 when i first played Link's Awakening and it brought me to tears. I used to talk to Marin in town just so I could stop and listen to The Ballad of the Windfish for a while and feel so many emotions mixed together. It truly was the game that made me a Zelda fan, and I had played every Zelda up to that point at least some. As much as I have played and enjoyed BotW and TotK the stories simply can not compare to the classic games.
i don't see why, when it comes to "defending" an aspect of a game they like, people drag it's predecessors down with it.
but i had no idea people were saying such things! that aside, it's great that you made a video like this in response. the zelda games have always had good and enjoyable stories attached to them. TOTK does have great premises and plot beats imo but it's evident that the open world aspect of the games hinders it's storytelling ability, and results in less than desirable outcomes being limited to flashbacks that you don't get to really participate in
(BOTW is kinda similar, but i think it handles it better with it's environmental storytelling, the champions, what they left behind, being the first of it's kind in the zelda series, etc.)
i hope they strike a good balance in the future!!
The story in Zelda games is my favorite part of the Zelda series. The storys in Zelda games are so good, even tho the creators care more about the gameplay, the storys are still very emotional and are amazing.
Absolutely!
Wait Majora is a girl!? I never knew that I always thought Majora was just a Demonic bing with no gender.
I don't think there's ever been a canon answer! I just tend to refer to her as a girl because of the feminine cry when Majora is struck, in addition to Majora's name ending in "a" which is usually a feminine word ending
But really I think genderless is probably more accurate
I paused the video when I thought I heard him say “her” and my jaw dropped like some new magic came to my favorite game after all this time… my brain was too tiny to even consider majora not being male idk why, but like WHY NOT!!!?? NEVER EVEN THOUGHT ABOUT MAJORA BEING A GIRL BUT OMG I AM SO SO SO MAKING THIS CANNON WE NEEDED A BAD BITCH thx for blowing my mind love this ❤
We have a similar thing in the Doom community, where anybody who had criticisms, however minor or fairly stated, of Doom (2016) or especially Doom Eternal were dismissed with bogus arguments from people who have never played the original games in the series claiming we should not be dissatisfied to see the series morph into something else that's totally different from the original. The arguments always invoke the phrase "Doom was always _____" with the blank being whatever quality of Eternal they really like. Other than this the only thing I have to say is that I loved the story of A Link to the Past. Sure it was surpassed by later entries but it laid all the foundations and to me was super compelling at the time. I feel like it gets not enough credit.
I can't say I am very familiar with the Doom community so it is really interesting to hear about this parallel!
I taught myself how to read as a child because of Zelda stories. I loved playing the games but I wanted to know what was happening, and since it was an era of no voice acting I had to learn. So I ended up with an 8th grade reading level in 4th grade lol
One stupid complaint I hear about Ocarina of Time's storyline is that it's just another "save Zelda" story. Um, yeah, that doesn't happen until the END OF THE GAME. For the most part, you're actually doing something completely different! Sure, she does get kicked out of Hyrule Castle halfway through the game, but she never actually gets kidnapped until right before the final dungeon.
Absolutely it is a silly criticism
If you don’t know what’s up with Sheik then Zelda is actually conspicuously absent from the adult section of the game, only seeming to matter in the child section.
@@badbeardbill9956 How does that counter my point?
@@meta527II It doesn’t, dog. Not everyone is out to counter your point
@@badbeardbill9956 oh. Sorry about that
Personally, Ive never really understood the hate for BOTW's story. Ive always thought that it taking place in the past adds to the lonely atmosphere.
I'd agree with that!
My issue is that it feels paper thin, and there is a serious lack of lore that the player can consume in the overall game. You have an insanely large, beautiful open world with barely any tales to fully tell. Some place names, and a lone npc that might mention something about the lore of the land, but often not.
@@WulfilaBelmont That's understandable. One reason I really enjoy it is that they do an amazing job in making you care about the champions which makes their deaths and cutscenes after divine beasts hit even harder
@@jacob_sieger most definitely!
Same, when people say BotW has a bad story I'm like "UH??? Did we play the same game?". We got one of the most tragic stories in the series, the Champions are great, the emotional scenes are incredible and it gave us the best princess Zelda. I've played several Zelda games and none of them made me as emotional as BotW did.
as one of the Zelda boomers who fell in love during the N64 days and hasn't looked back since I remember when Breath of the Wild was still being teased as the upcoming game for the Wii u. people had been saying that as the first game in the series to potentially have voice acting but also a series that has traditionally had a silent protagonist how could they balance things out? I had heard the theory that The characters might speak an unknown language and call it Hylian and have native subtitles for each game's region (btw I really love how Metroid actually did this exact thing with Metroid dread!!!). but then the first trailers showed them speaking in Japanese only, to the point where when the game was released and I started playing it in English I was simultaneously let down because it not only sounded much better in a language that to me was foreign but at the same time seen for scene whenever they had spoken lines the thing just seemed much more muted and phoned in for the English dub! Long story short Breath of the Wild had so many many things wrong with it and this was just one of the first to jump out at me.. 😭
I loooved this video, MM really is peak zelda imo… i love how creepy and emotional and human it is. that being said, wind waker actually has one of my favourite endings of all time… the writing (ganon’s speech especially) is so simple, yet poignant. i have the scenes and even lines memorised by heart because i’ve played through it so many times. I hope future games will put a little more focus on the narrative again, i wouldnt mind sacrificing some of the openness of botw and totk to see it happen!
For me personally, one of the reasons I really enjoy the Zelda series is because of the stories.
Out of many the video game series I have played with good stories, the Zelda series is still one of my favorites.
Of course, how good a story is in a game will always be subjective.
However, I also do not agree with the idea that the Zelda series has bad stories or even mid-ones. I see this view mostly because people want it to be ultra-complex, and dark, but even with its simple aspects, it's still great. As the video has covered, many moments can be complex still.
I don't mean to come off as a fanboy with this statement, but I hold the opinion that the Zelda series doesn't have a bad story. This even includes Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom.
I don't personally have an issue with the story of both games. I honestly find Breath of the Wild's story to be one of the best in the series. For Tears of the Kingdom, I find the story to be on par with the other games. I also have found that some still really enjoy both games and still like the story.
The argument to excuse Tears of the Kingdom's story to say the Zelda series always had bad stories, is not a good statement.
To many, ones who even enjoy the newer games, the story is important. I find that it comes down to personal opinions mostly, regarding what is it that makes a story good, what it should have, etc.
This is just something I wanted to share about the Zelda series narrative including the newer games. Thank you for reading.
Thank you for the thoughtful comment!
@@NayruYT Thank you so much for your comment. Really good video. It really shows why the stories in the series are good.
"I honestly find Breath of the Wild's story to be one of the best in the series" FINALLY someone said it
Skyward Sword is my favorite Zelda game its also the first Zelda game I've ever played and yes it has the best story telling in the entire series with the 2nd being the Wind Waker in my opinion.
A fair opinion!
.. .it seems the big issue is.. people expected 'more' from Nintendo. The people who are saying Zelda stories were always bad... are basically saying those people are wrong for expecting more.
I also see the flaws in the story... but I expect them. I'm not in love with Tears of the Kingdom... but I can't help but laugh at the fact that Zelda is never going to become queen even though in ToTK she's the oldest person around.
Queen of ruins 😔
Did I see Gex in this video, Long ago, I borrowed a Gex's game from a Friend which I played on my N64, as I've never played a Gex game before, Gex said the lines a woman's place is in the kitchen a few seconds after I had control of him, when I had just turned the game on, I then reached my hand over to the power button, to turned the game off, took the cartridge out and returned the game to my friend the next day.
Agree, links awakening will always be the #1 story for all Zelda!
Excellent taste!
The only Zelda game to make me cry
If anyone has the nerve to say "Zelda stories have always been bad" when the tragic story of the Hero of Time spans 3 popular series entries, has subtle but significant storytelling that integrates perfectly with gameplay, and to this day, is the thing many Zelda fans think of when they first think of the franchise? Then I'm sorry, those people just straight up AREN'T Zelda fans. Those are dungeon-crawler-puzzle fans that THINK they like Zelda just because they like the gameplay. Posers.
Haha fair!
I could never believe "Zelda always has bad story" narrative when it's one of the franchise that could make me consistently cry lmao. There's just something so earnestly folklore-like with Zelda, that charm trumple over traditional storytelling and I couldn't describe how
Zelda really does have a level of whimsy that is rarely reproduced in other series
When you were talking about face expressions during the N64/PS1 era, I felt the need to bring up Mega Man Legends, as that was one of the best examples of facial expressions done well during that era. Like, even to this day, it still looks really good.
Just a banger game period
@@NayruYT 100% Agreed!
Nayru uploading two times within a month?? What is this sorcery?
Rumours about my death were greatly exaggerated
TotK has the best gameplay of the franchise but the worst story of any 3D Zelda game (still better most of the 2D installments in that regard though).
BotW's story is actually better than most give it credit for though, as minimalist as it was. It features the best written version of Zelda herself (who basically carried TotK's story) and alot of the best environmental storytelling in the franchise since Majora's Mask.
Honestly BotW and TotK kinda make me sad because their success basically dooms old school style Zelda games (new ones probably won’t be made in that style) and since so many people started with BotW that colors their perception of the series - personally I actually dislike a lot of BotW’s aspects like having 120 shrines and not much story. Jesus… but that’s the direction of the series now I guess.
Echoes of Wisdom looks like they're going back to "traditional Zelda" with some freedom sprinkled in
Well said! Many Zelda games have good stories!
I especially like the story of Majoras Mask, so thanks for highlighting that. It's nothing like Tears of the Kingdom which has a terrible story and ruins the series. REEEEE 🦀
CRAB TIME
I love tears a lot😢...But well storywise is indeed confusing, yet still ❤
I can totally understand that!
yeah i've heard this a lot lately. Zelda's stories make the games, which is why, while incredible in their own way, BOTW and TOTK have not felt as immersive or inspiring as OOT or Majoras
Absolutely
I appreciated every section of this video except for the Skyward Sword portion. It seems to boil down to, "it's good because it has a lot of lore." I'm not against the idea of lore being compelling, but I would have appreciated an argument for why that's the case.
I can't say I agree at all that Wiz's section boiled down to "lore" but I appreciate you watching
I always thought the best Zelda games should be like a D&D session that isn’t allowed to go completely off the rails.
Sure, let us go off the beaten path and do things out of order, find new creatures and people and so on and give us all kinds of in character and randomly silly options to respond with in this world we fans love… but the story is so important that it has to get us so invested that we stop goofing around and WANT to save the day. Otherwise the heroes journey is in fact just a boring trope
Skyward Sword Deadass has one of my favorite stories in like any game. It’s so underrated Istg
It is pretty great!
I’ve been a Zelda fan since the 90s, and I’d disagree with the notion that TotK has a bad story. I thought the story of BotW was “meh”, but I was enthralled with TotK’s. I did not like the repeated sage cutscenes and had a couple other gripes, but besides that, it was far more impactful than I was anticipating. Most of it is an investigation to solve a mystery and fill in the picture, hence, I disagree that seeing a tear out of order is “spoiling” at all. Detective work is not always linear… you’re piecing together different parts of the story as you discover them, but even then, TotK does have a suggested order if you manage to speak to Impa at the first tear. I understand the format may not be everyone’s cup of tea, but it hit all the sweet spots for me.
TWW & SS are still my top Zelda stories, but TotK is not very far down the list.
i wish i could give you multiple thumbs up right now... i do not want to dismiss a person's way on how they engage with stories, but i never see any discussion about how it's non-linearity adds more to the experience, and i would even say that i felt like Link during these "investigations" in how i was processing the info that i got... i really love how it encourages a player to ponder
Was looking for this! I Adore the storytelling of BotW and AoC, and while I haven’t fully formulated my thoughts on TotK, I never thought it had a bad story.
That's fair! I'm really glad the story did it for you!
Do the Tears even count like the game's story?
They are just noise. Their importance is akin to knowing how to make cheese.
The game story is: Link wakes up, gets powers, follows leads about Zelda's whereabouts, frees four regions and Ganon tries to lure him to the castle posing as Zelda. Link follows and is helped by the people he helped. Finds a fifth sage that has info about the Sacred Stones and Zelda's plan of dragonification. Finally, Link goes and investigates the place where everything started, defeats Ganon and Zelda becomes human again.
Nothing. Absolutely nothing about the tear memories is important for the plot.
Now, as the best way to play ToTK is rushing to the enemy, the "teamwork" theme the story pushed towards falls flat. Link could defeat Ganondorf alone as long as Zelda could do light magic. Just like in BoTW's ending....man, Zelda really loves to skip her light lessons, doesn't she?
@@tarnw3301 hmmm i think i see your point (it is technically optional, after all)
but i also don't think it's fair to discount the importance of the Tears since that's where we'll get the knowledge 8of Zelda's whereabouts and what she has been doing, not to mention how emotional the culmination is... and of course, the retrieval of the Master Sword is also part of it as well, since you technically get its location after you experience all of the Tears
it is important to the plot, but the way it presents its importance works differently compared to the way how other games present their plot... i'm not gonna argue if it's right or wrong, of course: but it's the choice that they have made
i personally respect the way they did it, but i also understand why others do not
I'd love to hear a story breakdown like this for oracle of ages too
I'd definitely love to do one!
Sleeping bangers. I'm hoping they get a Link's Awakening remake treatment for modern audiences. At least they are available on Nintendo online. They are among my favourite 2d Zelda titles, along with Minish Cap.
I dont get how tears of the kingdom has a "bad story" the flashbacks in both games were uninteresting but i liked how sidon is getting married now, yungbo is building an amusement park, tulin is comming of age and riju... Ok got me there she grew up a bit? Hey not every character can be a winner did anyone give two fraps about Ilia in twilight princess?
I definitely enjoy Totk’s story. I think it has a really cool twist and a lot of interesting character moments, specifically with Zelda. But, the fact that things are out of order, makes it have less of an impact. It’s not that it’s a bad story. It’s poorly conveyed. Lore is really another conversation entirely. In my opinion, it does respect the lore of the series, while distancing itself enough in order to be more unique on its own. I definitely understand why people might feel that Totk doesn’t care about the lore, but I definitely disagree with that sentiment. It’s definitely a good story, but it’s hard to tell that story in an open format as opposed to a linear format.
A very fair opinion!
i think the biggest issue with totk’s story is everything BUT the cool moments with the dragons + imprisoning scene (which are amazing).
the rest of it just lacks depth and has details that don’t really make sense, and mainly it just doesn’t use up its time to make you care for the characters :(
which sucks cause i would’ve loved to be a fan of rauru, sonia, ganon etc. but there’s just so little to them…
I was of the same opinion for a long time, until I watched a video pointing out all the contradictions, inconsistencies, and dumb decisions in the story. Seriously, it's like Rise of Skywalker out here bro. There are so many moments where things just don't make sense when you actually think about them. Aside from all that, I just don't like what they do with the characters. Princess Zelda suffers from total character assassination. In BotW she's a researcher at heart, she's a little stubborn and she's always done things her own way. In TotK we see NONE of that. Her only two character traits are wanting to save Hyrule and liking Link.
On the positive side of things, though, I think the twist is fantastically done and easily the best part of the story. Well, fantastically done on paper. The issue with it is that if you pull the master sword before finding all the memories, or if you find all the memories before completing the dungeons, huge parts of the story are straight up just spoiled.
@@sagehanson190 what video did you watch?
@@sagehanson190 I don’t think it massacred her character at all. For one, the reason why Zelda investigated under the castle was specifically because of her love for her research and the desire to rebuild her kingdom. While she’s in the past, she enjoys learning about the culture of the ancient hylians and the zonai people. However, she also realizes how important it is to save her kingdom as the princess, and makes the grand sacrifice of everything she loves to deliver the sword to the hero. It’s the perfect climax to her character growth.
Honeslty I love all of these Zelda stories...I dunno if I agree about MM being the best but it is one of the best.
Like I love SS's story a lot, it has some of the best main characters in a Zelda game and I would say more so then MM even (both also funnily enough have crazy villians who are both demons or well Majora is arguably a demon at least), plus there are some things I am a bit annoyed by with MM. It seems like it led to some widespread misonceptions later on like that Link became a Stalfos looking for Navi which wouldn't make sense as Link isn't dumb enough to become one and later had family of his own too. So like...we never found out what happened to Navi or why she left even though it's supposedly the main reason Link was there in the forest to begin with. Also this may seem minor...but it's a continuity thing and I did like how TOTK actually addressed this but Link having three hearts again in MM, maybe it was Skull Kid magic? Could be actually.
Both have great stories though and MM's is obviously more symbolic though. But while SS's story has some pacing issues, I don't think there is a perfect Zelda story really.
SS story is pretty great along with its dungeons. Its an over hated game in my opinion.
@@ProjectionProjects2.7182 I agree it is overhated, honestly in some ways I would say TOTK is overhated too tbh.
@@jaydenc367 maybe a little, but SS get even more unjustified hate Then TOTK.
Personally I like the mystery of Navi never being solved. It always felt like Link was looking for her as a way to avoid having to let go of the events of OoT, and I see MM as him healing his own trauma as well
@@ProjectionProjects2.7182 You don't think it hasn't mellowed yet over the years? I mean I agree it's still overhated, but I don't think it's as vindicaed as something like Wind Waker is still, even if both have been overhated before and are both really good Zelda games.
Growing up I didn't like Majora's Mask but after returning to it as an adult it's my favorite video game ever, I watched a video called "Majora's Mask The Ultimate Trauma Narrative" which is one of the main reasons I returned to the game, as someone with Complex Trauma and PTSD it makes sense to me now why I didn't like it as a kid, I had no foundation for understanding the emotions of the narrative (I also thought that MM Link and OOT Link were two different people, but again another thing I couldn't understand as a kid) Majora's Mask as an adult has allowed me to relate to a media on a deep emotional level where I feel less isolated in my emotions and daily struggles with PTSD, while also bringing forth a strong sense of wonder, desire and nostalgia that helps me feel connected to my inner child and brings me peace when sometimes things are too intense and rough to feel like a functioning person.
I really love to read stories like this where one of the games resonated so strongly with somebody on an emotional level
There’s so much I want to say about how Zelda stories tend to be really interesting, but there’s way too much 😭
So um, some things:
A Link to the Past
Agahnim/Ganon wormed his way into the King of Hyrule’s good graces, proceeded to murder the king, cast a spell that was slowly taking over the minds of Hyrule’s knights. He sent all of the 7 maidens and Zelda to the Dark World so that he can break the seal cast over him that traps him there.
Ganon turned the once holy Sacred Realm into the hellish Dark World, where the darkness in your own heart transforms you into a monster. It has a very dark fairytale feel to it since it has punished those who went into the Dark World in search of the triforce, only to die and/or turn into a monster.
Reminder that at this point Ganon is incredibly powerful as he has access to the full Triforce, so upgrading your already holy equipment is in your best interest if you want a more fair fight against the king of evil.
Countless people have suffered because of Ganon’s selfish actions, such as: The flute boy who was unfortunately turned into a tree, the King of Hyrule, Zelda, the soldiers of Hyrule, the 7 Maidens, Link’s Uncle, etc.
So being able to bring back all those people and undo all the terrible things Ganon did to the Kingdom with one selfless wish is very cathartic.
It’s a relatively simple story, but I quite like it, and if there was ever a reimagining of the game I would love if more of the manual lore was able to be added into the story in a natural way.
And that was just my thoughts of one of the simpler Zelda games.
This is a lovely interpretation and I thank you for writing it!