REGARDING USING OOT3D FOOTAGE FOR MY ARGUMENT: You folks are absolutely correct that using it undermines my point about how OoT's revolutionary facial expressions aided in it's storytelling. Big L for me not to use original game footage there. I edited this on a bad PC that couldn't emulate or capture footage, and all that I had access to on my hard drive was OoT3D footage so I used it for ease of editing. Same reason I used original MM instead of MM3D, because I had access to a MM cutscene collection on my hard drive. But I should have just got some original game footage off TH-cam, and accepted the quality loss. However I would point out that if you look at shots from OoT and OoT 3D side by side, while there is no doubt the newer models are more expressive, it isn't by a tremendous amount. It is most a fidelity increase, and OoT Saria expresses the same feeling as OoT 3D Saria with just about nothing lost in translation Nevertheless it is valuable criticism I will make sure to adhere to in any situations like that going forward! --- Please go give some love to Tyler, Wiz, and Bread, and thanks to them for helping with the video! Tyler Townsend: www.youtube.com/@TylerTownsend Wiz Catches Lightning: www.youtube.com/@wizcatcheslightning www.youtube.com/@TheBreadPirate
While it true zelda was never bad the fact that people are gaslighting totk story. Saying that it is bad is crazy. Game may not been for you doesn't mean it's story was bad. It's story was one of best in the series
@@josevel27imo it’s pretty bad with good moments. Writing is awful, story is told and hardly shown, it tries retconning older games, and it breaks its own continuity (Secret stones don’t give you new powers? Pretty sure Ganondorf didnt have gloom before his). Plus the way it’s told doesn’t help. My first dragon tear after the tutorial one with impa was the one where Ganondorf became the demon king- so yeah most of the story was spoiled from that one alone lol
the fanbase attempting to gaslight everyone (after totks bad story) by saying zeldas story was always bad was the most annoying period to be a zelda fan. the lore was half the reason i love zelda. good arguments!
This must be proof a lot of this fanbase is young. Either that or you’re in your own bubble too much. People have been calling Zelda’s story bad/weak for decades. I’ve been there through it all. The “lore” we talk about and claim to love so much is based on a lot of theories tied together with paper clips and string, much of which the developers may have even only leaned into when they heard what the fans were saying. And the rest filled with holes or inconsistencies everywhere. Zelda story is only strong for Nintendo standards. It has always been minimalistic, simple and even weak compared to actual good video game stories out there. This has been said by so many people over the years, I can’t believe you’ve somehow never seen it. The entire Zelda timeline is also not a single story. You can’t compare a single game to the entirety of Zelda’s timeline stuff and then act like the games have such great story telling. Yes, the best part of Zelda story is when you combine it all and look at the timeline. But game by game, each story leaves a lot of be desired on its own. The best Zelda story in the series, mainline story anyway, is probably Link’s Awakening. It’s simplistic and needs a lot more added to it to make it deeper, but its theme and concept is pretty deep and kinda sad. But it could’ve delved into it SO much more. Majora’s Mask has good side quests but the main plot on its own makes for an interesting concept but without much meat on its bones..unless you delve a lot into side quests. OoT…is generic. Only by trying to look at subtext clues do you find much there, a lot of which isn’t as deep as some people think, or may be unintentional. It’s still nothing special.
@@Random1567 you're insane if you think old zelda story was weak (especially for 3d zelda). people were invested in lore of old 3d zelda because the overlap with other games was intriguing and left room for theories that didn't "fix" the story, but enhanced it. Matpat blew up because of his theory video on majora's mask that enhances the lore of an already great story. yes, story was always secondary to gameplay, but they never disregarded the importance of it, even going out of their way to create a prequel/origin story (skyward sword). Look at most zelda tubers, more of them are theory channels because discussing zelda lore was interesting. Now it isn't because totk has hopscotch lore that contradicts the timeline and, quite frankly, isn't interesting. why care about the story of a game if the devs don't care themselves?
@@J0J0JetzI’m repeating what I’ve heard throughout the years. So many people have called it weak, and honestly, they’re kinda right. So much potential and yet so bare bones on a game by game basis. Looking at the whole timeline to enhance the plot is kinda sad, don’t you think? You have to combine the entire series just to make the plot sound more interesting, when each game is nothing special on its own in terms of story. Other story games are great just by themselves, without the need for looking at them all together. MatPats video is not only wrong, its kinda dumb lol But even pretending it’s good, it’s nothing more than a theory that doesn’t hold up with the series logic. It’s been debunked plenty by now, and it’s just an example of fans creating their own fun with a series that is relatively simple with its plot. That doesn’t make it true unfortunately, nor does it make it strong. The series itself does not make Link dead in that game, it’s a headcanon that’s long been proven wrong. Same with his “I fixed the Zelda timeline” video. It’s not the series having a good story, it’s the fanbase playing around with theories more than anything.
"So what? Zelda games have always had bad stories." This reveals two things: 1) They agree that Totk's story is bad, and 2) They haven't played nearly enough Zelda games.
Yeah man, I cried so much when Link's uncle died in AlttP. Such fantastic writing. It's a shame that I didn't care about Zelda in TotK anywhere near as much as I did about Link's Uncle. And damn remember how exciting quests used to be? Like, TotK only makes us do stuff like reuniting with old comerades to defend a town from a zombie attack and solve a mystery in a sand storm. Everybody knows the good stuff is quests like fetching water from the first dungeon for Lanayru in SS. Or being told about Ganondorf destroying an island off-screen in WW, so we had to sail across the ocean multiple times to do a tutorial minigame again, get some bombs and then shoot at a stone slab. Fuck the new games. Zelda used to tell great stories.
The story in Zelda games is what got me into the series as a whole. The story telling in Majora's Mask is probably what made me a snob when it comes to stories.
@@J0J0Jetz Wait did it? I thought MM was kind of light on that really, it kinda loosely did with Navi but that didn't matter much with the plot itself or even really got resolved. If anything TP makes more references to the events of OOT arguably.
Same. It was actually the OOT/MM mangas and TH-cam theories about the hero of time, enabled by the hero’s shade, that convinced me to pick up OOT in the first place.
i played link’s awakening remake for the first time while working on my totk video. and then i replayed it. and then again. and then i played the dx version, and then i played that again. i completely fell in love with link’s awakening, so much that it shot up to become my second favorite zelda game ever. so glad to see it recognized here for the beautiful, charming, and tragic tale that it is
Oh would you look at that, it's my new favorite youtuber, apparently. Hell yeah, Link's Awakening is GOAT, also my second favorite, right behind Majora's Mask.
As a TotK story criticizer (who still loves the game otherwise), you sir are unbelievably based for this video. "Old" Zelda games were always known for their puzzles, enemies, music, and STORIES. I and my entire channel are quite literally proof of Zelda stories being deep, resonant, and... good. So thank you for making this. May our lord and savior the Algorithm bless this video and may it soar high to reach as many other Zelda fans with this message as possible. Amen.
zelda stories are peak media, i love the player interaction and deduction of its mysteries, its not spoon fed like totks "so that was the imprisoning war" x4. but i do really hate the recent surge of totk hate, the story is justified to critique but the gameplay itself is so fun and addicting. zelda, like many nintendo games, are family games with hidden themes to appease to the older audience, so allowing kids to be as creative as they want while appealing to older fans to the sense of adventure and combat is such an amazing feat, totk is downright a great game and a masterpiece standalone, it is only being hated on now with the comparison of botw and people who never liked botw to begin with.
It´s so sad that my expectations for "tears" was set by the upgrade in immersion and storytelling from Ocarina to Majora´s. what a disappointment it was :(
Never trust a game hyping itself up to be a super immersive experience. The reason Majoras Mask has such great story telling is because of the 3 day mechanic. This allowed it to avoid many of the reasons making such a game is not practical. It is also why you are not going to see any Triple AAA game as good as it in this generation. Because developers are scared of innovation. Free roaming world is not innovation. Nor is adding building machines as that concept was already well documented in games.
Never understood this argument. I'm 21 now and I STILL tear up at Midna's goodbye at the end credits of TP. I STILL get emotional when Fi says goodbye in SS (even tho she barely had any character development until right before she sleeps....erm....n e ways...) I still tear up at the end of OOT. Like. Most of the games aside from the EARLIEST have a loooot of emotion packed in. What about, y'know, an entire island of beings just vanishing cuz it was a mf dream??? Come on ppl.
I never finished any of those games until I was an adult, because I didn't want the story to end. I'd restart at the final boss over and over. That's not true of a lot of games.
I watched someone else play SS the other day and the ending with Fi made me tear up. People who say the stories in Zelda a bad haven’t played Zelda. I’m currently replaying some of the older games because they’re just so good
@@robertbeisert3315I’m the same with a lot of games. I get to the end and just don’t finish it. I just restart. Idk why I do it but maybe it’s for the same reason as you. The end feels very final and I just spent hours with a great story feeling like I’m a part of it. Ending that is too sad at times
Zelda stories often shine brightest when something isn't told. It's often subtle and allows you to dive deeper into it if you want and if you search for it. The sometimes dark implications, colorful characters, hidden worldbuilding in architecture, lost civilizations, pieces of lore in item descriptions or when you choose to let your companion tell you more about enemies or characters (Navi, Fi, Midna have these options but many choose to ignore it). It's funny how this kind of storytelling is something you'll find in dark souls. You can just follow the main objective and get a linear straight forward story telling experience or you take some time and effort to learn about the world you are in. It's quiet genius really
I love when games do that. letting you discover parts of the story through exploring the world rather than hitting you over the head with everything. it's what gives games such potential for immersive storytelling.
It's insulting for the whole gaming industry to call any Zelda game a "bad storytelling game". Most of the games were inspired in many aspects by Legend of Zelda (gameplay, story, music, etc.)
It frustrates me even more when people say that TOTK has a better story that BOTW. Sure it has more story but it's so damn shallow. The sages have no character, LITERALLY NO CHARACTER. They don't even have a face, whilst the champions in BOTW were some of the best characters. You don't have to look far to see some people say that urbosa is their favourite character. The story is BOTW is lacking in quantity but what there is is a heart breaking tradgedy that we have to piece together as we explore this grieving world. TOTK is just shallow. Ganondorf evil, ganondorf kill someone, rauru big sacrifice, zelda big sacrifice, link save the day, all happy in the end and Zelda's sacrifice didn't end up being a sacrifice. Also being told about the story after every dungeon is stupid. Secret stone? DEMON KING? Shut the fuck up every sage in the game TOTK promised a better story but imo they gave a worse story
I think Botw was also better at environmental storytelling than Totk because you could see the path of destruction left by the guardians. There were lots of little clues as to what happened 100 years ago, which made exploring a lot more fun imo.
From what I've seen with a few people, I think they expect Zelda to be similar to the Marvel movies up to Avengers Endgame. A collection of stories that build upon each other that eventually lead to a climactic confrontation. The reality is that they're more like a collection of individual tales. There are overlapping narratives and connections between games, but they are ultimately their own self-contained stories. This lack of buildup to something grand and massive seems lackluster, but the individual experiences within each story are epics all their own. I wouldn't go so far as to say they're the best stories ever written, but they are most definitely good stories that are very well written.
Yeah this. I sometimes see people expecting an "ending demises curse for good" game. Some kind of marvel endgame scenario. But the curse is just the explanation of why there is always an incarnation of demise's hatred, Link and Zelda. The curse is what allows Nintendo to play with the same setting/basic premise in different and unique ways. A legend told differently each time. We aren't going to get a "ending the curse" game because it would defeat the point.
What would be so wrong about ending the series? They functionally have already. The new games are all but reboots, so the old continuity doesn’t really matter to Nintendo at this point.
@stanstanstan2597 I wouldn't say they're reboots necessarily. They're just set so far ahead of everything else that the way it connects isn't really apparent. Similar to our own world where new discoveries are being made to fill in gaps in history, the lost sections of Hyrule's timeline could be filled in as new games come out. They can always work backward from here to eventually connect it to the timeline. Even if they don't, though, I don't think it's really all that bad for Breath and Tears to be separate.
@@kakarikokage2514Idk man, the Zo so stuff and Secret Stones are hard to connect to the rest of the series, especially with the Triforce which is supposed to be the strongest artifact next to the Master Sword but these silly stones that come out of nowhere are suddenly way stronger
Also I think people overstate or are misled by just how much the likes of Aonuma contribute to the story. The Zelda Team is bigger than 3 people. While Aonuma mainly focuses on gameplay, now and then contributing to the story, the rest of the team is most likely the people who are responsible for the enjoyable stories we enjoy so much. The fact Aonuma prefers the style of BotW and TotK because of the fact they have a smaller emphasis on story and more about freedom makes it clear how much he himself cares about story. But yeah, it's clear the rest of the Team is massively passionate about the lore and story. I mean, just look at how hard they fought to get TP 2 made.
I mean it depends right? Things like the wedding in MM and the relationship between the King of Red Lions and Link in WW are directly because of Aonuma's personal life experience so he clearly has quite a role if fairly major parts of these games are stemming from his personal history. As far as BotW/TotK, the question is absolutely up in the air
@@NayruYThe could very easily be thinking "I wish I didn't have to write this much story, but if I'm going to write one, it better be the best story I can write"
@@NayruYT One small correction: The wedding in MM was a collaborative effort among the development team. It was an idea that they had during the wedding of one of the team members, that just happened to take place during the time North Korea started to behave more aggressively towards other countries. They were talking about it during the reception, and apparently the idea of war breaking out during that very same wedding is what gave them the idea of the entire Anju and Kafei side story. Of course, Aonuma was part of that group, but also were Yoshiaki Koizumi and Mitsuhiro Takano (one of the main writers of the series who has been unfairly overshadowed by Koizumi). King of Red Lions, however, was indeed all Aonuma. As a matter of fact, "The Wind Waker" is easily the most "Aonuma story" in the franchise, since he made the game for his then newborn firstborn, so he was the main writer too. He started writing the story of "Twilight Princess", but apparently he got overwhelm by the rest of the development of the game, so Takano took over, and he has distanced himself from the writing process ever since.
@@XanderVJ Wind Waker had such a good story… I guess it just shows that if Aonuma is willing to try, he can make a good plot, but he always focuses on other things. Do Takano and Koizumi still write for the series?
Lets be honest with ourselves here. The people who say what the title of this video says usually have never played any other Zelda game before besides BOTW or TOTK.
BOTW has good environmental story telling, but like 95% of it was basically treated as obsolete by TOTK. Not that the main narrative of either game is good. The narrative and world of TOTK is more than bad, it takes a lot of what was actually good about BOTW and actively makes it worse. The Zonai went from this elusive race of animal-headed aliens who might have been based on the buddist cycle of rebirth, and they were just turned into shiekah tech 2.0.
If they didn’t care about story why make skyward sword the beginning of the timeline, what’s the point of making an origin story if the games are supposed to be their own separate thing
Exactly, it was made to be a origin story and went over the backstory of the master sword and why there is a cycle of reincarnation in the first place between Link Zelda and Ganondorf.
Nintendo has had a rough timeline for the Zelda franchise for most of its existence, with the only game that wasn't really thought out in any way before BotW or TotK being Four Swords Adventures. You can find them referring to the timeline multiple times in interviews before it was officially published in Hyrule Historia for the 25th anniversary. Its a shame they seem to have dropped it so suddenly.
@@JacobNintendoNerd99 no. The first four swords game was said to be the first game chronologically at it's point of release, which it did end up being in the official timeline. When four swords adventures released, they said it comes straight after four swords but it couldn't because it has ganon in it and he's sealed at the end. If ganon was sealed at the end of a game right before ocarina of time, ganondorf would never have been born. In the official timeline, this is the only one they moved from what they'd previously said in interviews. it's nothing to do with the story in the game, it's about how it connects to other games
As far as I can see, this tired discourse lives up in the same premise of "simple characters are inherently bad written". It's just one nonsensical, amateur claim, usually made by people who read only some footnotes on the subject once or twice. Bugs Bunny it's a simple character, however, his antics are very well written, specially because you know everything about him already, and yet he pulls out one trick that you weren't expecting. You know the layout, you know the intentions, and you even know he WILL get his way out at the ending, but your don't know how he will do it. Hence the endless creativity of Looney Tunes , Tom and Jerry, and so on. The pretentious discourse on how EVERYTHING should be multilayered, dubious, shady, unreliable or mysterious in order to present quality, it's nothing but one amateurish theory that sounds intelligent, or exigent, but in reality it's mundane as it can be.
@@NayruYTexactly. So much seems to have gone from all things are similar, to all things are similar but dark and everyone is secretly evil. (Somewhat hyperbolic in my part, but when the heroes in an adaptation do worst things than the villains in the source, I get kinda jaded). Straightforward can still be deep. A classic good versed evil can still have fantastic story arcs. And an asynchronous story can still have meaningful character growth.
Also this video pointed out something I've never noticed. The trauma young again Link had to deal with was probably a way the world of the game (act of the goddesses/triforce?) to guide along a measure of recovery in Termina. (Hero's Shade notwithstanding - even a bit of making peace doesn't erase the wounds and regret).
@@Grandwigg I think I missed about all that stuff playing Ocarina. Like your friend being sad you are leaving yet you can just walk back to the village in game does not help.
Realizing that 17 year old (Adult Link) is just a 10 old who slept for 7 years. Awaking mentally as a child in an "adult's" body faced with destruction of Hyrule. That shit shook me hard. All I could think about was my child. Still my Favorite of all.
He gets hit both directions! Becomes a 17-year-old with the mind of a child, lives an adult's experience, and then is sent back in time to his child body with the memories of his adulthood. Poor guy!!!
@@NayruYT yes. He out of time and place. Since day one. Maybe Zeldas brother. If you buy into that. I wish I could play through it for the first time one last time.. The first time I played OoT was in Walmart display n64 didn't know what I was playing but I remember it was at the temple of time
@NayruYT true, but he still has a mind of a child There's text in majoras mask that suggests it, such as him viewing the stiff between Kafei and Anju as "adult matters" that he doesnt understand (showing he probably still views himself as a child as well) and there is an innocence like not understanding the ulterior motives motives Ofc being sent back in time still inst easy as he probably feels alone in that no one knows what he went through and has no one to confide in
@@Nova-gh5yr Yeah, I never personally bought that Link fully grew up at the end of Ocarina. There's a bit were the Owl tells Link that he's fully matured into an adult, but I thought that it was ironic that Owl tells him with he's in his child body. In any case, Majora's Mask shows that there's a lot he still needs to learn as you pointed out. He's does appear to be close to Zelda after Ocarina given the one cutscene she appears in, so he might not have been alone as it might appear at first.
everyone always discounts the portable zelda games completely ignoring the sadness and regret of leaving words unsaid in phantom hourglass (that last argument that linebeck and ciela had still breaks my heart with linebeck turning around before just as he fades away) ignoring an innocent youth being corrupted just from the darkness in the hearts of man ignoring a princess that actually fought along side link multiple times in a suit of armor to save her kingdom these stories are every bit as good as oot, mm, ww, tp or ss
I think he did it bc if he explored in deep every zelda the video would last like 6 hours but it’s implicit those tales are excellent, spirit tracks will always be one of the best Zelda’s ever haha
Ever thought video about making a video about "underrated Zelda stories"? I think Spirit Tracks, Phantom Hourglass, and A Link Between Worlds might have something there!
These days people think simple stories are inherently bad, everything has to be either super cinematic or Fromsoft levels of complicated to be good or something. I cannot tell you how much I miss simple but effective storytelling, as someone who doesn't have the patience to dive into the lore of stuff like Elden Ring or sit through hundreds of cutscenes in Red Dead.
On Majora's Mask, I think a thing that is often pointed out but the true story is often missed, the explorations of grief and loss are not intended. The 5 stages of grief in particular being represented were flatly unintended... But they're still there. The story of Majora's Mask's development is almost as fascinating as the story of Majora's Mask itself. The rushed development happening over a bet, the time limit in-game being reflective of the 1 year deadline the Zelda team had and the stress that came with it, Aounuma literally having a nightmare about the game and coming into the office to see his nightmare was made as a cutscene without any input on his part. Majora's Mask is a fascinating game in all aspects, and how the emotions of the development team were so intricately woven into the very fabric of the game I think more than any other game ever made shows that games are art, are expressions of the artists and developers. And the world is all the better for it.
I personally really enjoyed the Tears story. But, the way they told the story is the biggest problem. Not to mention the.. more or less saying the same thing multiple times with the sages from their own slightly altered perspective. Cut that a bit, expand a bit more on the Zonai, and the people in the past in general, the whole thing with Mineru is so well done, along with the side story of Hudson and Rhondson's daughter being beautifully done. In all, those things, including that side story, are really well done. The actual story telling via finding the tears, is slightly.. less well done. The viewing it out of context isn't great, it's a problem. That same problem is with Breath, telling the story via glimpses in the past, what's wrong with doing what other open world games do, and having you IN the story, not looking at what happened during the story in the past. And yes, I agree, the hot takes on the stories always being bad is hot garbage.
In tears I really liked how Zelda and ganondorf were done personally. I have never felt so motivated to save Zelda and utterly destroy ganondorf in a Zelda game.
There are honestly some interesting ideas in totk but they're kinda buried in a bunch of mid-to-bad storytelling decisions. It'd be impossible on the Switch but instead of the skies/the depths, I would have preferred swapping between the present and past instead. Sort of like Ocarina did. Link feeling so disconnected to the plot was such a hinderance on it being a good story.
I agree! I loved the interesting ideas the story had, but I think its presentation really bogged it down. Parts could have been thought out better too, and the ending was super cool but I wish there had been some consequences left behind on the world/characters.
I'd agree - also a bit too much focus on the McGuffins and a very unhappy middle-ground between "human villain" and "force of nature" when characterising Ganondorf imo, but the method of delivery was the biggest issue by far. Honestly for me it's just a passable Zelda story, that could have been a lot better with relatively few changes. Nothing more, nothing less.
2:30 this is why it's so insane to hear people praising breath of the wild and TOTK for "getting back to the original Zelda formula" when they are further from being "true" Zelda games than any other entry in the franchise
The really tragic thing about the stories in the new Zelda games is that they're actually good symbolism in those games. Look at BotW. Take out the dumb regional stories and the memories, and what you have is a game where you wake up a dead world, and conquer 4 titanic beasts. It's almost Shadow of the Colossus. Theres so much potential there. And then look at TotK, take out all the friendship is magic bullshit and the god awful "durrrr where could zelda be!?!?!" and it's a game about a dead hero who returns from heaven, and descends into the earth to slay a demon in hell.
I've noticed that this has become a very common defense for anything lately especially for twitter takes They've always try to gaslight people into thinking Old thing is bad and new thing is on par (Which ironically paints the thing they're defending as terrible as well) I never understood this whole thing of defending something why tearing other things down arguments
they haven't experienced the full series. same kinda thing since like 2011 where people take others' word for it that "2011 Hunter x Hunter is better than 1999" without actually watching past the old anime's episode 10 where the animation starts to go crazy & just assume its the case that the newer one is better - or commonly from the time as well "Hunter x Hunter is better than One Piece" without them watching/reading the then-500 episodes of One Piece - so on & so forth. the social media problem, internet telephone, game of real-life Telephone...just so many misunderstandings as life has happened
I think it's a cycle. People see others tearing down stuff to prop up what they like, so they do the same. For example, when BotW came out I absolutely loved it, but I saw people tearing it down and comparing it to OoT. People got mad at me and called me names because I said I loved BotW. This made me angry so I started doing the same thing as them: I started tearing OoT down to defend BotW. Basically we see other people being toxic and we become toxic ourselves because we're angry. It's a cycle that's difficult to break when you spend time on the internet
I'm really surprised you didn't talk about wind waker! It's probably my favourite zelda story, with themes like growing up and moving on from the past. Great video tho! You deserve wayyy more subs
Kind of you! Wind Waker is actually my favorite game ever, I just didn't include it because I wanted to have some level of impartiality here haha. As well I think explaining why the story is good is a little bit more difficult than with the other games, because the other games have strong themes that can be pointed to, whereas with Wind Waker, it's greatness kind of comes in the sum of its parts, which takes a while to explain!
@@NayruYT also my fav zelda! i kind of agree in a way, wind waker is harder to explain, but i wouldn't say it's because it doesn't have "strong themes" like the others. if anything, i'd argue its themes are the strongest and clearest compared to the rest; the king of hyrule literally spells it all out at the very end that this game was about finding hope in a ruined world, about letting go of the past, etc. the reason it's harder to explain is actually because i think the wind waker develops the most cohesive plot and worldbuilding over the course of its playtime compared to the other games, so in some ways telling the story would effectively be the same as reading out an audiobook. link's awakening's story is resonant but admittedly pretty simple, and ocarina of time, skyward sword, and twilight princess all feature a few too many "tangents" from their central plots due to the larger number of dungeons. majora's mask is the only one i think really competes with wind waker when it comes to forming a cohesive plot where everything locks together perfectly, but so much of its value also comes from the multitude of sidequests that if we're being real do vary in terms of narrative relevance. all in all, wind waker really do be the type of zelda game to deserve its own entire video when it comes to this topic lol. still, totally agree with the basic premise of the video that "zelda has never been about the story" is insane, insane, insane levels of cap. zelda has not only had storytelling as a central component arguably since the switch to 3D; if anything it's actually been THE key of the entire franchise despite what the devs themselves might say. the world, the dungeons, the bosses, all these things have ALWAYS been first and foremost there to present a feeling of going on an adventure, and any good adventure NEEDS A GOOD STORY! it needs STAKES! it needs heroes and villains, twists and turns, memorable characters and moments! there's no point to an adventure that doesn't make you feel things about what the characters are going through, makes you care about the things they care about, makes you INVESTED in confronting the challenges set before you! so great vid, man, really enjoyed watching it!
While Wind Waker has its plot issues from keeping it be my favorite. But WW does have a strong theme to point out when you look at the end. It cared about Ocarina of Time's continuity on the other side.
It's really frustrating when people seem to equate simple stories with bad stories. Simple stories are not inherently bad! This is personal speculation but I think it comes from the hammering in of characters being one dimensional in poorly written stories, so people equate one dimensional as bad (not to say every zelda character/story is one dimensional), but some of my favourite Zelda characters don't even get a story of their own. Agitha is just a weird girl that likes bugs, but her outfit and house and way of speaking are so unique she sticks in my head, you don't need to be told what her inner world is like, because it's all right there to see in a single room. A story about the guy saving the girl isn't a bad story just because it's simple, what can make it bad is how it's written, and I really don't think Zelda has been badly written in the past.
I wouldn't say Zelda stories are ever super deep but I would agree that they aren't bad by any means. Even the simple ones like in the original Legend of Zelda aren't bad, they are just simple stories meant to give you a goal to beat. And games like Link's Awakening and Majora's Mask have shown that you can take Zelda stories in interesting ways.
I think Majora's Mask is genuinely deep, but I also don't think a story needs to be "deep" to be good! And you are correct that even in their simplistic forms, the story for the NES original is definitely serviceable
I think Zelda is a series that was always pretty good at managing to give simple, short stories and far more complex character-drive stories equal spotlight and importance, and even those that don't have much story present interesting ideas for their time in that time given. Even Wind Waker which is at a glance simple and childish tells the story of a world born from the back of a dead old world and not only covers some notably darker subject matters but depicts the trio in their most morally grey, with Ganon being more of an anti-villain desperate to undo his own destruction even to the detriment of the new world and 'Zelda' having grown up almost as a reflection of the life and circumstances that made him the way he is. A lot of this isn't focused on or emphasized as much as it probably could have been but the ideas are still clearly there. It also delves into an interesting dynamic, which is that Ganon and the king of Hyrule are too similar in their thoughts and desires, as both were desperate to bring old glory back, and the king's focus on tradition itself actually was to a detriment when having 'Zelda' fill the role she normally fills only resulted in her being taken anyway. This even culminates in him deciding neither he nor Ganon have reason to exist in this new world. Honestly, until recently it felt as though everything beyond Ocarina, after changing major writers, had a much greater focus on distinct, more complex story-writing and even tried to establish Link as more of his own person with a proper hero's journey (even Ocarina had hints of this). The classic, more simple stories would usually be relegated to portable titles but even they would often have something to them that allows them to stand out, such as Link Between Worlds' inversion/perversion of the major aspects of the three pivotal characters (Hilda being short-sighted and willingly cruel from desperation, Ravio being too much of a coward to hold to his duty and being unable to council his charge in time of need, and Yuga lacking much in physical strength and relying on siphoning power from others to achieve perfection).
WW Link is not really morally grey in any way I can remember. Infact, OOT Link is closer to that description since he is ready to do some fairly nasty things to progress.(Some of them are mandatory, but some are also just optional) Ruining the well by draining the water, plundering graves, cheating at fair, unrigged games(even if they are gambling), potentially leaving a petty thief dead permanently, etc.
@@lpfan4491 Except I said most morally gray trio. I'm not only using Link as a frame of consideration and I never was. Link in WW is the middle ground. He at first went on his journey for personal reasons; that being to save his sister from the entity he only knew as Ganon. He is not driven by a world-saving task by a higher power (at least at first) but his reasoning is still largely selfless and courageous. However, when comparing the way Ganon carries himself, being more tired, sad, remorseful but ultimately still arrogant and undeterred, or 'Zelda'/Tetra who has a history of theft and is known to be self-serving and who surprises her followers when showing concern to their other counterparts there is no denying they are both far more morally gray by comparison. It is not as much of a cut and dry good versus evil. While Ganon does not stop from his actions, and him talking about it can be seen as an excuse, he does give an explanation and reasoning for his actions that are understandable, while also making it clear he views the gods as cruel hypocrites. By contrast, while their depiction is largely romanticized, Tetra is ultimately a pirate. She steals and harms others, even if she is shown to at her core still be altruistic when it comes down to it.
I'm a totk fan. I got into Zelda from botw. However, I have since played other Zelda games, so I don't like it when people put down the other games to defend totk, those other games are what brought the series to where it is now. I still like the game but I acknowledge that the story has its problems. Maybe it's because I'm not that attached to lore as other fans are which allows me to enjoy it but really the argument that all of Zelda's stories are bad is just stupid and childish.
Phenomenal video! I'm so glad to see people still sharing their passion and appreciation for these wonderful stories and giving Zelda the acknowledgement it always has rightfully deserved. You made many very good points that I've been thinking about for over a decade and this new disingenuous discourse in the fandom has left me quite appalled too, it's a ridiculous thing to claim. But even regardless of all that, thank you in general for making this! I really believe this series should get more credit for its storytelling and emotional weight.
one thing i like about links awakening that i feel wasn't mentioned is that the game implies link will die if he stays sleeping. from an owl statue: "THE WIND FISH SLUMBERS LONG... THE HERO'S LIFE GONE..." You could maybe argue this means his life is gone since he's wasting it away in a dream but it's something to think about. :3
Totk story feels like a rough draft, it's not devoid of good moments, but it feels sparse compared to previous Zelda stories in a way that's kinda hard to nail down. After watching this though I think I've somewhat pieced together the issue; 1. escalation of stakes, 2. a companion. 1. Zelda stories usually start out simple enough, WW/TW/SS someone you care about gets captured and you need to save them, OoT you go on an adventure to keep Ganondorf from getting the triforce, but as you go through the games you uncover a deeper conspiracy of the world, WW it turns out the man who kidnapped your sister was the ancient evil that caused Hyrule to be drowned by the gods, which is now the ocean that you live in. In OoT Ganondorf succeeds in getting the triforce and now there's this drastic shift of urgency and tone as you explore this now drab, ruined Hyrule that previously was full of color and joy, hoping you can fix everything. The stakes change, the objectives change, the way you see the story changes, and totk just doesn't have that. From beginning to end you know what's going on, you need to beat the demon king by awakening the sages, and that remains your goal throughout the game up until you confront Ganondorf. there's no mid story goal change, or building revelations. Even after you confront fake-zelda nothing changes, theres no escalation of urgency, you just find the last sage and go fight Ganondorf. It also doesn't help that the dragon tear quest is very underwhelming, It's meant to serve as the "deeper conspiracy" that you uncover, but it's not particularly all that shocking, and aside from Zelda becoming a dragon, it was all stuff that could have easily been explained by Rauru at the beginning of the story, or pieced to us by each of the ancient sages and Mineru; it easily could have been summarized in 5 cutscenes. Even Zelda becoming a dragon, while an emotional scene on its own, doesn't change ANY of your goals. There could have been a really nice goal change where after you find all the sages, you find out Zelda is the dragon, and since she's the sage of time, you need her help to stop Ganondorf, so you research with Impa about any ways to cure draconification, which eventually leads you to a 6th temple. It still would've been a "find the sages" quest but it at least would have a different spin on it. 2. Along these quests we also usually have companions that speak and react to events that Link encounters on his journey, acting as a source of exposition and/or give Link abilites to use along his adventure. The very best of these companions are used to impact the story in meaningful ways, usually with their own character arcs. However not all Zelda stories NEED companions, some stories Link is alone, the best example of this is of course botw. The meat of Botw story mostly takes place in the past, characterizing the champions, endearing us to them and showing us the legacy they left behind. But more than that this approach to the story shows is something, Link has NO ONE, he lost EVERYTHING, his friends, his home, and his memories. He is a failure, and yet he's the last sliver of hope Hyrule has to avoid complete devastation. In a story like that a companion would just be distracting from the somber tone. This approach does not work in totk. Hyrule is not the same desolate land it was, it's people are rebuilding, reconnecting, the land is healing, and yet totk still feels just as lonely as botw. A way to correct this would've been to have a companion, a source of kinship to make the world feel less barren, specifically it could have been either Rauru or Mineru. Both could have served as guides to Link throughout the sky islands or the depths, providing little tidbits on Zonai culture and architecture we find. How the Zonai came to be in Hyrule, the origin of the secret stone, all these little details that we are told once and then never elaborated upon, could have served as excellent dialogue while exploring, just to remind players that "hey, your not so alone anymore". There's also numerous outlets for how we could see their character development. For Rauru I'd write him to be at first reluctant to open up to Link about the events of the past, about how his own foolishness led to his wife dying, how it caused the rise of Ganondorf, and his determination to make sure no one suffers anymore because of his mistakes. For Mineru I'd have her experiencing amnesia due to sleeping for tens of thousands of years, similar to what link went through, however much more sever, with her personality being completely forgotten, maybe even thinking herself an AI that Zelda put into the Purah Pad. As we adventure she slowly remembers things about herself until eventually she remembers she's the sage of souls. Even if they kept the story the same, I'm positive giving Link a companion would have elevated the story significantly past what we got. There's other smaller details that make totk story inferior to other Zelda games but these are the big 2 that I picked up on that I think would have made it better.
The prologue of the game felt amazing, it seemed like yeah this is a new game. But as soon as I went through the sky islands and the depths where every area is the same I felt so disappointed. Those people that kept saying it’s dlc were unfortunately right.
I just want to say that apart from Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks, I had never experienced a Zelda story, like at all. Even then, I didn't understand anything that was going on in those games (I didn't understand English fully), and I never finished their last dungeons. And despite being a practical newcomer to Zelda, I still was completely disappointed by TotK. So it baffles me how anyone can defend a lackluster story, regardless of their familiarity with the franchise. What frustrates me more, is that I could not give less of a lick if previous Zelda stories were bad; BotW had so much lore and potential, and I wanted to see it fully realized in its sequel.
I’ve been drifting away from the Zelda series for a few years now, and my disappointment with TotK just further solidified my isolation from the series. But watching this video reminded me why The Legend of Zelda is my favorite game series ever. I legit started tearing up at the end of your Link’s Awakening section and hearing the credits roll of Skyward Sword just broke me. I’m just so afraid of this series losing its identity and of never getting to experience the wonderful charm of these games for the first time again. Here’s to hoping the Zelda team is able to find their footing again with Echoes of Wisdom and beyond.
That is a very meaningful compliment, and I can understand your worries! Just remember that the Zelda team gets bored easily. Even if they say it now, I don't think this style of Zelda is here to stay forever.
I think it's also interesting that Aonuma puts a lot of content from his dreams into the Zelda games...that dream imagery carries so much symbolism that it's a perfect match for a visual/interactive medium like video games, and is able to pass onto us impressions of the themes of the game instead of out right telling them to us.
To echo some comments here, I thought the story to TOTK was actually good. Some good characters and pretty huge moments. There are just certain flaws in the execution (logic gaps if you did things out of order, the repeated post-dungeon cutscenes, the ending being a bit too easy and needing a better explanation). WW and OOT will always be my GOATS for story.
I thought it had a couple of good ideas, but it was bad. If half of a sandwich is 5-star and the other is moldy, that doesn't mean it is good. Characters have contradicting motivations and actions at the same time, half or more of the plot points only happen because all the characters involved are holding idiot balls, there is almost no characterization at all, all the story are flashbacks, the time-travel is lazy and a paradox, etc. You could take the ideas that the story introduced and make a good story, but the story as it actually exists in the game is bad. I felt moved by some of the scenes, but the attachment to the characters that allowed me to become emotionally invested was purely based on my attachment to the main characters (Zelda, Link, and Ganon) from the previous games! Not from what happens in TotK.
I personally think that Zelda's stories aren't bad, but they aren't anything insanely extraordinary. I'm not gonna compare Zelda's stories to something like Mother 3, Rule of Rose, etc, because those games are especially story driven, while Zelda has a stronger focus on the gameplay. Zelda is my favorite game series, and in a bubble, the stories are great, but in the wide realm of RPGs, it isn't anything too particularly standout. That does not mean they are bad at all. I love Twilight Princess's and Wind Waker's stories, and my god, Majora's Mask is really good. I think BOTW and TOTK had the roots for a really good story, but didn't quite stick the landing.
@@NayruYTeven Mother 3s Devs compared Majora's Mask to Mother 3, when they cancelled the N64 Mother 3 they had compared the "focus on one main village" aspect to Majora's Mask
I don't think there's ever been a canon answer! I just tend to refer to her as a girl because of the feminine cry when Majora is struck, in addition to Majora's name ending in "a" which is usually a feminine word ending But really I think genderless is probably more accurate
I paused the video when I thought I heard him say “her” and my jaw dropped like some new magic came to my favorite game after all this time… my brain was too tiny to even consider majora not being male idk why, but like WHY NOT!!!?? NEVER EVEN THOUGHT ABOUT MAJORA BEING A GIRL BUT OMG I AM SO SO SO MAKING THIS CANNON WE NEEDED A BAD BITCH thx for blowing my mind love this ❤
31:43 as you describe the ending of Link’s Awakening, a game I have played many times and been touched by, I am struck by how much of an allegory it is to completing games in themselves. What is the satisfaction we get from completing the game and leaving the dream world and all of its characters behind to return to our real lives as the wind fish and link do to theirs-whether we are soaring in high skies and faring fortunately in our existence or adrift the last piece of our broken vessel, alone in a vast sea? As the wind fish says, the dreams will always exist, so long as we remember them-perhaps it is what Link sees in the sea gulls, maybe thinking of Marin and her own dreams of flying away, as the added cutscene suggests? Just as our own lives can become more meaningful and beautiful, no matter their circumstances because of these “dream” stories. Fantastic game, and fantastic story. But, of course, for me, Majora’s Mask will always hold the trophy for greatest story-telling in a Zelda game. However, I have to add that I think, without the context of Ocarina of Time, Link’s own personal story suffers in that game. But that’s true of any true sequel-they’re not stand alone, hence why they’re a sequel! But the true success of the story of Majora’s Mask for me are the reflections of friendship, self-worth, duty, leadership, death (like you discussed), suffering/healing (as you also discuss), family, true love, maturity (in a different way from OoT in that the “adult” mind is now stuck living in a child’s body as opposed to sort of going back and forth between the two times/mental states as presented in Ocarina), and soooo many more themes, I could go on and on due to the side quests and the repetitive nature of the three days which give a kind of “what is the point of it all?” feeling when your hard work must be undone at the end of the cycle each time and the impossibility of “doing it all” due to the scheduling of the many many people-one can’t be a hero to everyone all the time-a hard reality to swallow for an actual hero who wants to help. Great video Nayru, as always! You are exceptional, thank you for your hard work and that of the collaborators!
Your bit about LA is great, and I wonder if that is why people enjoy achievements so much, because they serve the same purpose as Link seeing the windfish at the end, to sort of confirm that the dream was real
I don't think I've ever heard anyone saying this whole "Zelda stories were always bad" thing. What I've seen a lot is people claiming that the story was never the main focus on Zelda games, which I personally agree with.
I just wish we’d get more reoccurring antagonists besides Ganon that could appear alongside him. Hopefully Veran, Onox and Vaati make a big comeback one day.
I can see Vaati making a comeback given his "missing" status in the Adult and Downfall timelines but Onox and Veran are hardly able to comeback given their backstories as "children" of Ganon in the Downfall Timeline giving little plausibility for them to return after their (SPOILERS) deads in the Oracle duology. I feel it's already due time for _new_ villains to come around to spare the series from becoming stale through the rehashing of the same villains over and over again.
@@DjDeadpig They were *born* and died in the Downfall Timeline specifically, giving little incentive (and convenience while at it) for the Gerudo Ganondorf from the Adult and Child timelines to have also created them in the aforementioned 2 timelines. Meanwhile both Vaati and Ganondorf were both born _before_ the splitting of the timelines explaining why both have the ability to appear across multiple games in all 3 timelines. Onox and Veran don't have such a benefit as the 2 were specifically created in the Downfall Timeline while Ganon was sealed within the Sacred Realm confirming their existence to be an isolated event within this specific timeline and by extension making it impossible for their random creation to take place in either of the other 2 timelines.
14:09 - FF7 is interesting in terms of facial expressions- it released early in the PS1 lifespan, and the graphics are expectedly primitive. I've recently noticed something, though, the devs attempt to get around this limitation by using exaggerated body language. Seriously, next time you replay the original FF7, pay attention to all the arm waving, fist-shaking, shoulder shrugging, head shaking, etc. I never really considered that when I was a child, but it seems kinda goofy and excessive as an adult. However, I've realized why they did it, and I appreciate the effort!
It's been happening a lot this recent years. Star Wars is the prime example. Sequel trilogy defenders usually go for the "it was never good" argument as well.
I often hear a similar argument with media, like "Doctor Who has always been political" (therefore, complaints about the hyper-political recent seasons are invalid). I think the one using the argument is appealing to some kind of legitimacy, trying to shut down criticism by making sweeping statements. While it's not politics here, it feels like they're doing the same.
To be far, there were plenty of dumb gamers who were saying "Zelda never had good storytelling" long before BotW came out though. This is not a new opinion at all.
Twilight Princess is the only game in the entire franchise that managed to establish an interesting story in its first half, and then managed to completely ruin it in the second half, and this being a smaller game with a linear narrative lmao. Unfortunately, nostalgia prevents fans from seeing this, at least some of them, since TP has a good amount of haters, I'm not going to say it doesn't deserve it.
@@schutze1399 In a bubble perhaps, but what about Windwaker? Or Majoras Mask? Or even (as much as I struggle to enjoy the gameplay mechanics and it carries issues that would carry into the Switch games (lack of enemy variety for one) Skyward Sword... The point is Twilight Princess is the weakest story in the post Ocarina period of the franchise, and it still trounces TotK.
I know the 3DS OoT version looks better but why are you using that version in comparison to games around '96/'97? It doesn't look revolutionary when you use the remake version from years later. I have the N64 virtual console version on Wii, so yeah, it's a great game with a good story but at least show the original version....
In hindsight you are correct it would have been better to use the N64 version! The truthful reason is that I edited this video away from home on a pretty weak PC that can't emulate or capture, and all I had in storage was OoT 3D cutscenes! But your criticism is very valid
I feel the way about the story telling of ocarina the way I think others feel about the Star wars trilogy. It's not just a mono-mythic story but THE mono-mythic story. Especially in regards to the medium of games. Being able to see subtle religious allusions to our real world helped to make it feel all the more impactful for a young man entering his teen years. The skyward sword subplot of Zelda knowing that Link loved her, and manipulating him to become a hero with those emotions also really hit me in my early adult years. Windwaker even went as far as to humanize Ganondorf to be not just a tyrant, but a king who wanted to bring the prosperity of another nation to his own people. I've never understood the argument that Zelda has never had good stories, so I'm glad you've spoken out against this idea circulating around the community.
I mean, I enjoyed Tears of the Kingdom's story, but I'm surprised people think ALL Zelda stories are bad. I guess it's a good thing I don't use Twitter or dig too deep into TH-cam comments.
Came here after beating Majora’s Mask for the first time in years and I could not agree more with everything you said about it. It’s not only a great story by Zelda standards, but a great story period, with some of the most potent writing I’ve ever experienced in a game. You mentioned a lot of the broader plot moments, but I also want to mention how the specific plots in Great Bay and Ikana Canyon unfold, because I thought they were also fantastic. The level of character written into the Zora band on top of the tragic irony of you stepping in as Mikau after his death was really compelling to me. It was a plot beat that was extremely fun and charming in some places, but with a constant undercurrent of sadness knowing that once Link leaves, Mikau is gone for good. I really loved what they did there, and it led Great Bay to probably being my favorite area for plot besides Clock Town. I also just adored the atmosphere of Ikana Canyon, aided by the writing. Every interaction you have with any NPC in this area establishes it as a land of souls unable to move on. The ghost Sharp, the skeletons in Ikana Castle, the Garo, Captain Keeta and his crew, every soul there feels like they could have once been a Darmani or a Mikau. Not to mention the incredible visuals and music, especially in the Stone Tower Temple. I think Majora’s Mask’s plot is largely remembered for what happens in Clock Town, but I found the story to be deeply compelling in totality (except *maybe* in Snowhead but even then it was still pretty good there).
I'mma be real, tears of the kingdom was honestly just garbage in its entirety, literally 70$ dlc. I'm not trolling it really was that unenjoyable, I had fun with it of course but it just wasn't it
that is your opinion though, i wouldnt say the entire game was garbage and actually did well in most aspects, but fell flat in some areas that most of the players wanted to be improved and worked upon
TOTK was an improvement over BOTW in almost every way, but both of the Switch Zelda games fall far short of storytelling standards that have been set by the rest of the franchise. OOT and MM tell some of the most engaging, meaningful, and impactful stories found in gaming as a whole, putting the Switch Zelda games to shame by comparison. One is perfectly capable of still enjoying BOTW and TOTK in their own right while still acknowledging this obvious fact.
I love BotW's story and think it's one of the best in the series. You thinking it's bad isn't a fact, it's your opinion. No Zelda story has resonated and made me feel as much emotion as BotW's. Stop pretending your opinions are fact. I agree that TotK's story is dogshit, but BotW's definetely isn't.
TOTK story sucks. But BOTW story isn’t nearly as bad as you make it out to be. I agree with you on one thing, it isn’t as engaging as the other stories due to being set in the past. The present of the game has very little in terms of actual plot developments, which makes it less engaging for the player. But it’s definitely still emotional and has strong thematic weight and environmental storytelling. It fits right in with the themes and ideas of the series as a whole too. The passage of time, eternal struggle between good and evil, rise and fall of civilizations, is all very well explored through BOTW, arguably more than any other Zelda game. I wouldn’t say it’s the absolute best of the series but it stands well compared to the others despite being very different. Nowhere near the level of TOTK whose story is absolutely atrocious as a sequel, doesn’t fit in with the rest of the series, and barely even makes sense in its own right. Putting them on the same level is absolutely crazy to me.
In fact no, Botw has one of the best stories in Zelda while Totk totally ruins everything Botw did perfectly, Totk has one of the worst stories not only in Zelda but in all gaming
"X WaS AlWaYs BaD" is such a meme of an ""argument"". Every single defender of something falls back on this argument and it's honestly just so pathetic. It's just plain whataboutism. And even if one thing was bad in the past (99% of the time it wasn't)... why does it have to be bad now?? We're critiquing the CURRENT thing, not the past thing. As in, the most recent entry in a franchise or a series. If we were critiquing the past thing, we would BE CRITIQUING THE PAST THING. People are so braindead and have just accepted mediocrity for so long their minds have grown numb to it
Disney Star Wars fans always do this, and it makes me so annoyed. Star Wars was never overly complex in its storytelling, but the storytelling wasn’t bad.
@@charnalk5572 Again, just because the writing wasn’t overly complex doesn’t mean that it was bad. There weren’t plot holes the size of the Grand Canyon like we see now.
@@Enigma75614 There were in fact so many plotholes, and decisions that barely made any sense or straight conflicts with other movies in their own trilogies. No, Star wars was never good. It was at best something you watch with your brain turned off because of the interesting setting and visuals. Don't get me wrong, the IP does some good stuff, but the movies are rarely (if ever) one of them.
Idk what people are talking about, time and time again Tloz games have been some of my favourite stories in gaming and media as a whole. Link's awakening was the first piece of media to make me cry, i teared up this year replaying wind waker and twilight princess, skyward sword i played when i was young and that game's story sticks with me much more than something like Tlou or Rdr2. More than that Zelda is my favourite franchise ever partly due to stories, and if i had to pick one i like more than the rest i can't, because in my eyes: Totk, Tp, MM and Link's awakening are all perfect games. and yes Totk is perfect imo, and I personally love the story there, and in botw, i teared up at the end of both. Man Zelda in general is just so good.
I personally feel like Link's Awakening, while it has a fantastic story concept, ultimately falls flat. I usually hate (it's all a dream) stories, but I feel like LA could have potential, since it could play on the morality of ending the dream. But I think the hardware limitations ultimately prevents it from exploring those themes meaningfully. And I actually think Skyward Sword's story is garbage. It has great characters, but the actual story is nonsense, and in my opinion, retroactively hurts the rest of the series if taken at face value. I don't say this to disagree with your point; Zelda stories are rarely bad. They are usually passable to decent. But I feel like ALBW and WW would have been stronger contenders for this video than SS and LA.
I would be interested to hear how you think LA fails, since I think it explores its theme about as well as can be expected given the limitations! And we'll just have to agree to disagree on Skyward Sword haha
@NayruYT I'd like to start off by saying I intend no hate towards LA, it's one of my favorite Zelda games, and maybe videogames in general. I just feel like you don't really get to know the characters and world well enough to really feel the weight of their destruction. Obviously everyone's experience is going to be different, but I never felt super connected to any of the inhabitants of Koholint like I did with, say, the inhabitants of Termina. I think that if LA was reimagined with more sidequests, and just more indepth character interaction in general, it would go a long way to helping. And yes, agree to disagree on SS. I know my opinion on that game is pretty unpopular (I love the gameplay and dislike the story.) Sorry if I came off as overly negative though, this was a good video.
Link’s Awakening is pretty good but I agree it’s getting a ton of nostalgia glow. Skyward Sword, on the other hand, actually threatened to unravel continuity and reduced the depth of characters like Ganondorf. Hylia and Demise are pointless additions that turn the really cool setup of morally agnostic goddesses and the people of Hyrule just having to figure it out and protect the overwhelming power they left behind. Now SS didn’t ACTUALLY break the series or canon but it did deteriorate it and the fact that it’s not ripped to shreds by the community while TotK is, is beyond me. Zelda is slightly spunky and less regal, that’s evidently enough to cover for the fact that it’s a bad ankle weight on the series and don’t even get me started on how every single new species is an absolute L in every respect.
"zelda games have always had bad story" looks at the thousands of zelda lore videos on youtube pre Breath, not to mention all the zelda web pages before the age of youtube...(the majority of lore covered is in game events mind you) wut?
This is why I love Majora's Mask so much which makes the new sequel game for Breath of the Wild, Tears of the Kingdom, feel like a pale comparison when it comes to impact and weight. Another issue is that the last two games have been more in the aftermath while the story was told earlier outside of our control, in BotW we're picking up where Link had left off. In TotK we're cleaning up the mess Ganondorf left behind like a janitor while Zelda is experiencing the past and fighting in the Imprisoning War. All I can say is that if Link had gone back in time with Zelda, the map could've been different (yet still be the same), all the characters would've been new, we would've been in the action from the start and MAYBE even save Sonia and Rauru from having to die. Also Spirit Tracks has the been expressive and most active princess since she's a companion in that game. While Link Between Worlds is the closet game that combines the openness of open world game play with deep story from the older games.
Spirit Tracks is a tough one for me because I genuinely think it has some of the best character writing in the entire series, including in comparison to the 3D games, but I think the plot itself is pretty bad. So while I think it is brilliantly written, I have a hard time considering the story good. If that makes sense at all lmao
I dunno, like MM whenever you beat a major dungeon stuff in said region changes to reflect that giving it impact and weight. In TOTK you are finishing what was started and finishing Ganondorf for good. It feels personal when Ganon has been a major thorn in your side for 2 games now which spans over a century at least.
@@Jdudec367 What makes me disagree is that he's lounging around down in the depths regaining strength while Majora only gives you three (in game) days to get stuff done. Sure you can reset the three days but its the feeling of importance AND pressure that makes me like MM more.
@@NayruYT It kind of reminds me of Zelda II in that regard, a demo steals Zelda's body so it can be possessed by a Stronger demon. Kind of like how the enemies in Zelda II need link's blood to resurrect Ganon. Admittedly encircling the plot around trains might've been its biggest weakness to be fair. Though finally a zelda game where she's the companion makes it at least bearable to enjoy. Too bad TotK wasn't like that.
Majora's Mask is a great game with a good story, but that game is not a sequel, it is nothing more than a game that takes place after Ocarina of Time that makes a maximum of 3 references to its predecessor, 2 of which are poorly done and leave you confused, the other would just be an Easter egg. Wind Waker is the true sequel to Ocarina of time. The ending of OOT leaves many questions unanswered, and instead of MM answering them, it throws you into a parallel world with no explanation and even more questions arise, questions that to this day have no answer, for example, what is the land of Termina? Wind Waker answers the questions left at the end of OOT and even concludes the story for real, in another timeline of course.
This is a hot take, and I’m prepared for the consequences…. BOTW and TOTK are amazing sandbox games, but they aren’t good Zelda games. I’m seriously hoping they go back to the previous formula and gets off of the BOTW hype. I sadly doubt this will happen, but the best Zelda games are not BOTW and TOTK.
@@jpp4566 lol I appreciate that! I have thought that since BOTW was first introduced and making its debut and people were blowing up about it. I think it is a really good game, but I won’t be playing it ever again since sandbox games grow stale…
@@jaxsonfanta5420 yeah thats a fair take imo, but zelda shouldnt return to the old formula, it should be less sandbox-y and more grounded, but have the freedom aspects of botw and totk, like the great sky island tutorial in totk is literally the combination of linear progression and freedom
the take comes because some people think "story" = "movies", the more movie-like it's presented, the more the story matters. The more text in it. Nevermind one of Zelda's strengths is how often it conveys its narrative through the game itself. Link's Awakening is really good at this. Ocarina of Time is excellent at this. Also I disagree with the idea that Link's Awakening was the first game. A Link to the Past did put a lot of effort in the story. Maybe it's not a masterpiece of a story, but what is there is very present and I'm always surprised people don't consider it. I do not hesitate for a second in saying it has the single strongest narrative begining of the entire series. Even the big Narrative games start like, Peaceful Tutorial Town. Here it immediately throws you into your only family left the house while you're being plead to go to the castle by a voice, and when you follow ignoring the guards telling you to go to bed you find out he's dying, and you must take up his sword and follow the voice. Then through the first part of the game you get everyone encouraging you in what looks like a stereotypical hero story, only to catastrophically fail and the people believing in you being killed. These are not "additions" to the gameplay, it's driving the whole thing. And it's just full of neat characters everywhere: The drunk old man that grieves his grandson who you later meet, Sahasrahla and his family in Kakariko who hide secrets from the guards and trust you despite your reputation, even the guys stuck in the Dark World are fun and interesting. My favourite character is a guard that during the start tells you how his fellow soldiers have all turned violent, and that it'll likely be a matter of time he does, and then when you meet him again he's become a mindless enemy like any other. This is a game that literally has the line "Behold, the last moments of Princess Zelda!" and sincerely has you believe she dies right there in front of you. A Link to the Past has a lot more depth than people acknowledge.
It really bothers me that people like MissClick (recently continued to childishly take jabs at the game during the announcement of Wisdom of Echoes) make claims like TotK's story is bad because there's no Triforce or Zelda isn't the focus of the story while at the same time claiming to be a big Zelda fan and have played them all. So they conveniently forget that a good chunk of them like Link's Awakening (which had a remake shortly before the release of TotK) and Majora's Mask, don't involve the Triforce or is focused on Zelda herself. They even go as far as to complain that NPCs that weren't even alive during the Calamity aren't talking about it in TotK like it was just yesterday. It's like getting mad that people now aren't talking about WW1 like it just happened. The bigger Zelda TH-camrs have spent way too long being told they're correct that whenever they actually have a bad take on a Zelda game, they can't comprehend how they're wrong and just reject the idea of re-evaluating their position on the matter.
Ocarina of Time aged like wine. I think the only aspect that aged poorly was the graphics, but with the overhaul of the 3DS version, we can see how the game hold up in terms of design, and storytelling. And even graphics, I think N64 ocarina of time look way better than most games from that era. The story is simple, but so effective, the atmosphere, the sound track, everything just work together to create an amazing and memorable storytelling. I am sorry for Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom fans, but they are not even close to be as good as Ocarina of Time.
i wanna day that botw did have a good story, my favorite story. and thats because of all the environmental storytelling and how u need to seek out the memories and everything. you got as much lore and story as u put effort and curiosity into the game
Something I hate about the heroes journey criticism is that it was never a template. The heroes journey was an observation by an anthropologist of common story telling attributes in many stories regardless of age or era. Writers don't have a heroes journey checklist they're obligated to follow, it's just narrative interacting with human psychology.
I would disagree with the idea that tears of the kingdom had a bad story, what it does have is poor presentation of its story, so the good backbone gets shot like 2 dozen times on its way. It has poor terminology and retells part of its tale 6-7 times instead of expanding on it, it also refuses to tell its story in order, leaving the players discovery of it mostly random and taking away a lot of the potential investment to its twists and turns. It has in its core what it needs to be one of the best but it’s buried by poor decision making so as it is; it’s hard to rate it above a C.
The biggest issue in the way it tells its story is that it uses the exact same method as Breath of the Wild, while the story itself is clearly meant to pan out in a way EXTREMELY different from Breath of the Wild. Even if the correct order for viewing the Geoglyphs was in the Forgotten Temple, there should've still been a linear lock behind viewing them. An incredibly easy fix would've been to have a more visible smoke plume or light signal whereever Impa was at the Geoglyphs, and color code them. Don't allow the player to unlock Geoglyphs out of order. Have green smoke or green light emanate from Impa's beacon at the Geoglyph that can be viewed, and red at the ones that can't. Boom. The story is un-spoilable.
@@mercury2157 yeah I definitely think even a grouped order where 2-3 are active at a time would have helped. Stories as an art form are usually somewhat linear. Or multi linear, multiple loosely tied plot lines , trying to write something satisfying with no dedicated ordering sounds like an impossible task. And by forcing players to experience it in that way , by not indicating ordering in any way that most players would discover, the plot was bound to suffer.
i don't see why, when it comes to "defending" an aspect of a game they like, people drag it's predecessors down with it. but i had no idea people were saying such things! that aside, it's great that you made a video like this in response. the zelda games have always had good and enjoyable stories attached to them. TOTK does have great premises and plot beats imo but it's evident that the open world aspect of the games hinders it's storytelling ability, and results in less than desirable outcomes being limited to flashbacks that you don't get to really participate in (BOTW is kinda similar, but i think it handles it better with it's environmental storytelling, the champions, what they left behind, being the first of it's kind in the zelda series, etc.) i hope they strike a good balance in the future!!
This was such a reassuring video to watch after all the infuriating gaslighting going on about the topic and how "I just got old and the stories feel more mundane" Thank you for reminding me how much I love the stories of these games and how much they impacted me when I was younger
I definitely enjoy Totk’s story. I think it has a really cool twist and a lot of interesting character moments, specifically with Zelda. But, the fact that things are out of order, makes it have less of an impact. It’s not that it’s a bad story. It’s poorly conveyed. Lore is really another conversation entirely. In my opinion, it does respect the lore of the series, while distancing itself enough in order to be more unique on its own. I definitely understand why people might feel that Totk doesn’t care about the lore, but I definitely disagree with that sentiment. It’s definitely a good story, but it’s hard to tell that story in an open format as opposed to a linear format.
i think the biggest issue with totk’s story is everything BUT the cool moments with the dragons + imprisoning scene (which are amazing). the rest of it just lacks depth and has details that don’t really make sense, and mainly it just doesn’t use up its time to make you care for the characters :( which sucks cause i would’ve loved to be a fan of rauru, sonia, ganon etc. but there’s just so little to them…
I was of the same opinion for a long time, until I watched a video pointing out all the contradictions, inconsistencies, and dumb decisions in the story. Seriously, it's like Rise of Skywalker out here bro. There are so many moments where things just don't make sense when you actually think about them. Aside from all that, I just don't like what they do with the characters. Princess Zelda suffers from total character assassination. In BotW she's a researcher at heart, she's a little stubborn and she's always done things her own way. In TotK we see NONE of that. Her only two character traits are wanting to save Hyrule and liking Link. On the positive side of things, though, I think the twist is fantastically done and easily the best part of the story. Well, fantastically done on paper. The issue with it is that if you pull the master sword before finding all the memories, or if you find all the memories before completing the dungeons, huge parts of the story are straight up just spoiled.
@@sagehanson190 I don’t think it massacred her character at all. For one, the reason why Zelda investigated under the castle was specifically because of her love for her research and the desire to rebuild her kingdom. While she’s in the past, she enjoys learning about the culture of the ancient hylians and the zonai people. However, she also realizes how important it is to save her kingdom as the princess, and makes the grand sacrifice of everything she loves to deliver the sword to the hero. It’s the perfect climax to her character growth.
Skyward Sword is my favorite Zelda game its also the first Zelda game I've ever played and yes it has the best story telling in the entire series with the 2nd being the Wind Waker in my opinion.
Well said! Many Zelda games have good stories! I especially like the story of Majoras Mask, so thanks for highlighting that. It's nothing like Tears of the Kingdom which has a terrible story and ruins the series. REEEEE 🦀
On your last video about this I commented about how I think its frustrating how the "The Lore is bad now" portion of the fanbase acts like the old games have some shakesperian storytelling attached to those games when in reality the stories are incredibly simple and that counts for every Zelda game. All Zelda games have very simple stories, they are not bad (in fact I'd argue that simple is better than something too complex which is part of the reason I always disliked the timeline split thing since it turned a simple story into something unnecesarily complex) but they are very simple on their nature, the villain always have clear evil reasons to be evil even in cases like Skull Kid where he was being a puppet of Majora but in that game Majora itself was simply evil trying to destroy the world of Termina. HOWEVER I think the difference between the older games to the newer ones is the presentation of those simple stories, I've seen a lot of people say that BOTW has a better story than TOTK and I largely think this is due to how the story presented certain aspects of the game like the champions and the motivations behind them and Zelda. I do agree that it does a better job, TOTK however picked the criticism behind the BOTW story, mainly the villain and the lack of his presence and swung too hard on the other direction, overly focusing on Ganondorf and making (in my opinion) one of the best presentations of him since Wind Waker (Wind Waker is still much better of course but this is mostly to show how far ago something like this was made) but as a result making the game lack with the presentation of other characters (particularly the sages cause wtf was those cutscenes repeating???) The "present" sages have some good characterization to them (particularly Yunobo considering how they use your expectation of the character to play back with you) but it does not hold a candle to characters like Mipha or Rivaly in the previous game. The game follows the same simple formula for the story but it waters it down too much making it about the villain and characters like Rauru and Sonia get ZERO time to be shown properly, why have those two only to later add another one of the Zonai to focus on when it would've been easier to combine Mineru and either Sonia or Rauru into a single character? Why go through the work of making a cutscene for every dungeon ending if they will all be the same? I understand the reason was so we could take the dungeons in any order so the exposition had to be similar but giving each sage some sort of specific motivation (The Gerudo one in particular deserved one I played it again a couple of days ago and I kept wondering how it must've been to the Gerudo of the past to detach from Ganondorf and essentially fight against their own tradition) Just adding a few lines about why they decided to follow Zelda with her plan would have been enough to present the story in a better way. I'm a big fan of TOTK and I don't think its nearly as flawed as some people make it out to be (I saw a video the other day that said the game is terrible and the only reason people like it is their own reasons and motivations to enjoy it and like isn't that how liking ANYTHING works????) But I won't pretend the stories in the older games were bad and this was somehow the first time we as a collective realized it, the stories were all simple but the ones from past games actually TRIED to present them properly and respect the intelligence of the player. Nintendo is getting so close to perfecting this new formula, they made a simple story but forgot to focus on the villain at their first attempt and on the second they focused ONLY on the bad guy and let the other characters without anything to survive in the story, if they do it one more time and get a balance between the criticism of the two games then a great Zelda game will come from it, but as it stands both of the newer games are flawed in their own areas. The older games are far from flawless (specially in some story/gameplay mixes where it just felt like the games were stalling for time when it was never necessary) but they presented themselves with more respect to the player and pride to themselves and as a result are better seen by the fans.
We have a similar thing in the Doom community, where anybody who had criticisms, however minor or fairly stated, of Doom (2016) or especially Doom Eternal were dismissed with bogus arguments from people who have never played the original games in the series claiming we should not be dissatisfied to see the series morph into something else that's totally different from the original. The arguments always invoke the phrase "Doom was always _____" with the blank being whatever quality of Eternal they really like. Other than this the only thing I have to say is that I loved the story of A Link to the Past. Sure it was surpassed by later entries but it laid all the foundations and to me was super compelling at the time. I feel like it gets not enough credit.
my first zelda game was botw back in 2019 (i was 12 so ive been part of the fandom for nearly 6 years) and i absolutely loved totk. the story is ... questionable but the gameplay is so addicting and fun. i played mm and oot on and off after botw and the stories are incredible. zelda stories have always been basic but with complex themes and hidden lore that makes it so charismatic. im a botw/totk fanboy all the way and imo TP is peak zelda hands down (my order is coming in a week from now). what totk succeeded in was making an insanely fun and creative game, the story fell flat and the atmosphere from botw is watered down - this does not mean it is a bad game, it just lacks in the component. botw was amazing in the world building, the initial exploration of hyrule and the somber tone of an isolated and decayed world (for me at least, botw has one of the greatest stories in all of zelda, it just needed some more fleshing out and interactive elements rather than just memories). ive watched all the game grumps series and read most of the manga, zelda stories are perfection also as much as i will defend totk for being an amazing game, the story is definetly lame and couldve been something really cool, but i do love how theres an emphasis on this story for speculation, even tho figuring out the ending was pretty easy (i love lore)
I’m a long time Zelda fan and Majora’s mask is my favorite in the series, but I also don’t think that ToTK’s story is that bad??? My favorite part about the switch entires is how they characterize Princess Zelda in Particular, and I feel like ToTK did a better job connecting the players current actions in the present to Zelda’s actions in the past than BOTW but I guess I should make my own video huh 😅
The beauty of Zelda stories is that they're often told as -obviously- a legend; a folk tale from generation to generation. I think the ambiguity and sometimes uncertainty of the events that go down in the stories, often not very detailed, only work in favour of giving it that myth aura.
For me personally, one of the reasons I really enjoy the Zelda series is because of the stories. Out of many the video game series I have played with good stories, the Zelda series is still one of my favorites. Of course, how good a story is in a game will always be subjective. However, I also do not agree with the idea that the Zelda series has bad stories or even mid-ones. I see this view mostly because people want it to be ultra-complex, and dark, but even with its simple aspects, it's still great. As the video has covered, many moments can be complex still. I don't mean to come off as a fanboy with this statement, but I hold the opinion that the Zelda series doesn't have a bad story. This even includes Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom. I don't personally have an issue with the story of both games. I honestly find Breath of the Wild's story to be one of the best in the series. For Tears of the Kingdom, I find the story to be on par with the other games. I also have found that some still really enjoy both games and still like the story. The argument to excuse Tears of the Kingdom's story to say the Zelda series always had bad stories, is not a good statement. To many, ones who even enjoy the newer games, the story is important. I find that it comes down to personal opinions mostly, regarding what is it that makes a story good, what it should have, etc. This is just something I wanted to share about the Zelda series narrative including the newer games. Thank you for reading.
@@sophitiaofhyrule Yes, it's that good imo. Very underrated aspect of BOTW. I really like how it's more about the characters, than just about the video.
I was 10 when i first played Link's Awakening and it brought me to tears. I used to talk to Marin in town just so I could stop and listen to The Ballad of the Windfish for a while and feel so many emotions mixed together. It truly was the game that made me a Zelda fan, and I had played every Zelda up to that point at least some. As much as I have played and enjoyed BotW and TotK the stories simply can not compare to the classic games.
I’ve been a Zelda fan since the 90s, and I’d disagree with the notion that TotK has a bad story. I thought the story of BotW was “meh”, but I was enthralled with TotK’s. I did not like the repeated sage cutscenes and had a couple other gripes, but besides that, it was far more impactful than I was anticipating. Most of it is an investigation to solve a mystery and fill in the picture, hence, I disagree that seeing a tear out of order is “spoiling” at all. Detective work is not always linear… you’re piecing together different parts of the story as you discover them, but even then, TotK does have a suggested order if you manage to speak to Impa at the first tear. I understand the format may not be everyone’s cup of tea, but it hit all the sweet spots for me. TWW & SS are still my top Zelda stories, but TotK is not very far down the list.
i wish i could give you multiple thumbs up right now... i do not want to dismiss a person's way on how they engage with stories, but i never see any discussion about how it's non-linearity adds more to the experience, and i would even say that i felt like Link during these "investigations" in how i was processing the info that i got... i really love how it encourages a player to ponder
Was looking for this! I Adore the storytelling of BotW and AoC, and while I haven’t fully formulated my thoughts on TotK, I never thought it had a bad story.
Do the Tears even count like the game's story? They are just noise. Their importance is akin to knowing how to make cheese. The game story is: Link wakes up, gets powers, follows leads about Zelda's whereabouts, frees four regions and Ganon tries to lure him to the castle posing as Zelda. Link follows and is helped by the people he helped. Finds a fifth sage that has info about the Sacred Stones and Zelda's plan of dragonification. Finally, Link goes and investigates the place where everything started, defeats Ganon and Zelda becomes human again. Nothing. Absolutely nothing about the tear memories is important for the plot. Now, as the best way to play ToTK is rushing to the enemy, the "teamwork" theme the story pushed towards falls flat. Link could defeat Ganondorf alone as long as Zelda could do light magic. Just like in BoTW's ending....man, Zelda really loves to skip her light lessons, doesn't she?
@@tarnw3301 hmmm i think i see your point (it is technically optional, after all) but i also don't think it's fair to discount the importance of the Tears since that's where we'll get the knowledge 8of Zelda's whereabouts and what she has been doing, not to mention how emotional the culmination is... and of course, the retrieval of the Master Sword is also part of it as well, since you technically get its location after you experience all of the Tears it is important to the plot, but the way it presents its importance works differently compared to the way how other games present their plot... i'm not gonna argue if it's right or wrong, of course: but it's the choice that they have made i personally respect the way they did it, but i also understand why others do not
Thank you for this video. It's always been maddening to me when people use this argument. Simple stories are not categorically bad, they can still be well written. Just look at Dr. Seuss. Furthermore, if someone genuinely believes that Zelda stories have always been bad, then the fact that people who've loved those stories are disappointed by TotK's story should be *really* telling of its quality.
REGARDING USING OOT3D FOOTAGE FOR MY ARGUMENT:
You folks are absolutely correct that using it undermines my point about how OoT's revolutionary facial expressions aided in it's storytelling. Big L for me not to use original game footage there.
I edited this on a bad PC that couldn't emulate or capture footage, and all that I had access to on my hard drive was OoT3D footage so I used it for ease of editing. Same reason I used original MM instead of MM3D, because I had access to a MM cutscene collection on my hard drive. But I should have just got some original game footage off TH-cam, and accepted the quality loss.
However I would point out that if you look at shots from OoT and OoT 3D side by side, while there is no doubt the newer models are more expressive, it isn't by a tremendous amount. It is most a fidelity increase, and OoT Saria expresses the same feeling as OoT 3D Saria with just about nothing lost in translation
Nevertheless it is valuable criticism I will make sure to adhere to in any situations like that going forward!
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Please go give some love to Tyler, Wiz, and Bread, and thanks to them for helping with the video!
Tyler Townsend: www.youtube.com/@TylerTownsend
Wiz Catches Lightning: www.youtube.com/@wizcatcheslightning
www.youtube.com/@TheBreadPirate
Oh snap... I helped with a video? WHEN DID I DO THAT?! I can't remember. 😂
Right!? Glad this is out! Thanks for having me on this project 😎
While it true zelda was never bad the fact that people are gaslighting totk story. Saying that it is bad is crazy. Game may not been for you doesn't mean it's story was bad. It's story was one of best in the series
@@josevel27To each, their own.
@@josevel27imo it’s pretty bad with good moments. Writing is awful, story is told and hardly shown, it tries retconning older games, and it breaks its own continuity (Secret stones don’t give you new powers? Pretty sure Ganondorf didnt have gloom before his). Plus the way it’s told doesn’t help. My first dragon tear after the tutorial one with impa was the one where Ganondorf became the demon king- so yeah most of the story was spoiled from that one alone lol
the fanbase attempting to gaslight everyone (after totks bad story) by saying zeldas story was always bad was the most annoying period to be a zelda fan. the lore was half the reason i love zelda. good arguments!
I agree entirely, and I appreciate it!
This must be proof a lot of this fanbase is young. Either that or you’re in your own bubble too much. People have been calling Zelda’s story bad/weak for decades. I’ve been there through it all. The “lore” we talk about and claim to love so much is based on a lot of theories tied together with paper clips and string, much of which the developers may have even only leaned into when they heard what the fans were saying. And the rest filled with holes or inconsistencies everywhere.
Zelda story is only strong for Nintendo standards. It has always been minimalistic, simple and even weak compared to actual good video game stories out there. This has been said by so many people over the years, I can’t believe you’ve somehow never seen it.
The entire Zelda timeline is also not a single story. You can’t compare a single game to the entirety of Zelda’s timeline stuff and then act like the games have such great story telling. Yes, the best part of Zelda story is when you combine it all and look at the timeline. But game by game, each story leaves a lot of be desired on its own.
The best Zelda story in the series, mainline story anyway, is probably Link’s Awakening. It’s simplistic and needs a lot more added to it to make it deeper, but its theme and concept is pretty deep and kinda sad. But it could’ve delved into it SO much more. Majora’s Mask has good side quests but the main plot on its own makes for an interesting concept but without much meat on its bones..unless you delve a lot into side quests. OoT…is generic. Only by trying to look at subtext clues do you find much there, a lot of which isn’t as deep as some people think, or may be unintentional. It’s still nothing special.
@@Random1567 you're insane if you think old zelda story was weak (especially for 3d zelda). people were invested in lore of old 3d zelda because the overlap with other games was intriguing and left room for theories that didn't "fix" the story, but enhanced it. Matpat blew up because of his theory video on majora's mask that enhances the lore of an already great story. yes, story was always secondary to gameplay, but they never disregarded the importance of it, even going out of their way to create a prequel/origin story (skyward sword). Look at most zelda tubers, more of them are theory channels because discussing zelda lore was interesting. Now it isn't because totk has hopscotch lore that contradicts the timeline and, quite frankly, isn't interesting. why care about the story of a game if the devs don't care themselves?
@@J0J0JetzI’m repeating what I’ve heard throughout the years. So many people have called it weak, and honestly, they’re kinda right. So much potential and yet so bare bones on a game by game basis. Looking at the whole timeline to enhance the plot is kinda sad, don’t you think? You have to combine the entire series just to make the plot sound more interesting, when each game is nothing special on its own in terms of story. Other story games are great just by themselves, without the need for looking at them all together.
MatPats video is not only wrong, its kinda dumb lol But even pretending it’s good, it’s nothing more than a theory that doesn’t hold up with the series logic. It’s been debunked plenty by now, and it’s just an example of fans creating their own fun with a series that is relatively simple with its plot. That doesn’t make it true unfortunately, nor does it make it strong. The series itself does not make Link dead in that game, it’s a headcanon that’s long been proven wrong. Same with his “I fixed the Zelda timeline” video. It’s not the series having a good story, it’s the fanbase playing around with theories more than anything.
Honestly TOTK's story wasn't even bad tbh. Although there are some weird inconsistencies in the series (like the master sword in WW for example)
"So what? Zelda games have always had bad stories." This reveals two things: 1) They agree that Totk's story is bad, and 2) They haven't played nearly enough Zelda games.
They absolutely have not played enough Zelda games
I am 90% sure these people only plays botw and totk.
"Zelda stories have always been bad!" -someone who's only ever played BotW and TotK
They have likely only played BotW and TotK.
Yeah man, I cried so much when Link's uncle died in AlttP. Such fantastic writing. It's a shame that I didn't care about Zelda in TotK anywhere near as much as I did about Link's Uncle.
And damn remember how exciting quests used to be? Like, TotK only makes us do stuff like reuniting with old comerades to defend a town from a zombie attack and solve a mystery in a sand storm. Everybody knows the good stuff is quests like fetching water from the first dungeon for Lanayru in SS. Or being told about Ganondorf destroying an island off-screen in WW, so we had to sail across the ocean multiple times to do a tutorial minigame again, get some bombs and then shoot at a stone slab.
Fuck the new games. Zelda used to tell great stories.
The story in Zelda games is what got me into the series as a whole. The story telling in Majora's Mask is probably what made me a snob when it comes to stories.
I love that!
Straight up, and everything connecting back with ocarina was so cool
@@J0J0Jetz Wait did it? I thought MM was kind of light on that really, it kinda loosely did with Navi but that didn't matter much with the plot itself or even really got resolved. If anything TP makes more references to the events of OOT arguably.
Same. It was actually the OOT/MM mangas and TH-cam theories about the hero of time, enabled by the hero’s shade, that convinced me to pick up OOT in the first place.
Imagine not wanting to do boring quests and repetitive gameplay and being called a "snob" for it.
i played link’s awakening remake for the first time while working on my totk video. and then i replayed it. and then again. and then i played the dx version, and then i played that again. i completely fell in love with link’s awakening, so much that it shot up to become my second favorite zelda game ever. so glad to see it recognized here for the beautiful, charming, and tragic tale that it is
Yes Link's Awakening is amazing!
Link’s awakening is my favorite game because trendy game fuels my gambling addiction
Link's Awakening is genuinely amazing.
Yooo that TotK video slapped!
Oh would you look at that, it's my new favorite youtuber, apparently.
Hell yeah, Link's Awakening is GOAT, also my second favorite, right behind Majora's Mask.
As a TotK story criticizer (who still loves the game otherwise), you sir are unbelievably based for this video. "Old" Zelda games were always known for their puzzles, enemies, music, and STORIES. I and my entire channel are quite literally proof of Zelda stories being deep, resonant, and... good. So thank you for making this.
May our lord and savior the Algorithm bless this video and may it soar high to reach as many other Zelda fans with this message as possible. Amen.
🫡
Ayo
Bandit of the Wild over here
zelda stories are peak media, i love the player interaction and deduction of its mysteries, its not spoon fed like totks "so that was the imprisoning war" x4.
but i do really hate the recent surge of totk hate, the story is justified to critique but the gameplay itself is so fun and addicting. zelda, like many nintendo games, are family games with hidden themes to appease to the older audience, so allowing kids to be as creative as they want while appealing to older fans to the sense of adventure and combat is such an amazing feat, totk is downright a great game and a masterpiece standalone, it is only being hated on now with the comparison of botw and people who never liked botw to begin with.
"ego stroking Majora's Mask fans"
Hi, that me.
Hahaha excellent!
Lol
based
It´s so sad that my expectations for "tears" was set by the upgrade in immersion and storytelling from Ocarina to Majora´s.
what a disappointment it was :(
Very fair
Never trust a game hyping itself up to be a super immersive experience. The reason Majoras Mask has such great story telling is because of the 3 day mechanic. This allowed it to avoid many of the reasons making such a game is not practical.
It is also why you are not going to see any Triple AAA game as good as it in this generation. Because developers are scared of innovation. Free roaming world is not innovation. Nor is adding building machines as that concept was already well documented in games.
@@phantom-ri2tg They turned Zelda into fucking Gmod.
Never understood this argument. I'm 21 now and I STILL tear up at Midna's goodbye at the end credits of TP. I STILL get emotional when Fi says goodbye in SS (even tho she barely had any character development until right before she sleeps....erm....n e ways...) I still tear up at the end of OOT. Like. Most of the games aside from the EARLIEST have a loooot of emotion packed in. What about, y'know, an entire island of beings just vanishing cuz it was a mf dream??? Come on ppl.
Absolutely, it is such a crazy thing for people to say
@@NayruYT Fr. You and your friends did a great job on this video! I hope those types of BOTW fans actually watch this and understand something lol
I never finished any of those games until I was an adult, because I didn't want the story to end. I'd restart at the final boss over and over.
That's not true of a lot of games.
I watched someone else play SS the other day and the ending with Fi made me tear up. People who say the stories in Zelda a bad haven’t played Zelda. I’m currently replaying some of the older games because they’re just so good
@@robertbeisert3315I’m the same with a lot of games. I get to the end and just don’t finish it. I just restart. Idk why I do it but maybe it’s for the same reason as you. The end feels very final and I just spent hours with a great story feeling like I’m a part of it. Ending that is too sad at times
Zelda stories often shine brightest when something isn't told. It's often subtle and allows you to dive deeper into it if you want and if you search for it. The sometimes dark implications, colorful characters, hidden worldbuilding in architecture, lost civilizations, pieces of lore in item descriptions or when you choose to let your companion tell you more about enemies or characters (Navi, Fi, Midna have these options but many choose to ignore it). It's funny how this kind of storytelling is something you'll find in dark souls. You can just follow the main objective and get a linear straight forward story telling experience or you take some time and effort to learn about the world you are in. It's quiet genius really
Yes the subtlety is such a massive factor in what makes Zelda stories thrive!
"The Well" in Ocarina of Time
I love when games do that. letting you discover parts of the story through exploring the world rather than hitting you over the head with everything. it's what gives games such potential for immersive storytelling.
Wait, does Midna? I’ll have to try it out next time
@@ObsessedwithZelda2 Nah my bad! It's only bosses. Seems I misremembered
It's insulting for the whole gaming industry to call any Zelda game a "bad storytelling game". Most of the games were inspired in many aspects by Legend of Zelda (gameplay, story, music, etc.)
Absolutely!
It frustrates me even more when people say that TOTK has a better story that BOTW. Sure it has more story but it's so damn shallow. The sages have no character, LITERALLY NO CHARACTER. They don't even have a face, whilst the champions in BOTW were some of the best characters. You don't have to look far to see some people say that urbosa is their favourite character. The story is BOTW is lacking in quantity but what there is is a heart breaking tradgedy that we have to piece together as we explore this grieving world. TOTK is just shallow. Ganondorf evil, ganondorf kill someone, rauru big sacrifice, zelda big sacrifice, link save the day, all happy in the end and Zelda's sacrifice didn't end up being a sacrifice. Also being told about the story after every dungeon is stupid. Secret stone? DEMON KING? Shut the fuck up every sage in the game
TOTK promised a better story but imo they gave a worse story
I think I largely agree!
@@NayruYT I wasn't very clear. In terms of story TOTK
I think Botw was also better at environmental storytelling than Totk because you could see the path of destruction left by the guardians. There were lots of little clues as to what happened 100 years ago, which made exploring a lot more fun imo.
Demon King? Secret Stone?
It’s 100% better than BOTW’s story and anyone who disagrees has -50 media literacy
Literally the coolest story you've ever seen
Totk fans: Yeah this is fucking shit actually
Hahaha exactly!
From what I've seen with a few people, I think they expect Zelda to be similar to the Marvel movies up to Avengers Endgame. A collection of stories that build upon each other that eventually lead to a climactic confrontation. The reality is that they're more like a collection of individual tales. There are overlapping narratives and connections between games, but they are ultimately their own self-contained stories. This lack of buildup to something grand and massive seems lackluster, but the individual experiences within each story are epics all their own. I wouldn't go so far as to say they're the best stories ever written, but they are most definitely good stories that are very well written.
Yeah this. I sometimes see people expecting an "ending demises curse for good" game. Some kind of marvel endgame scenario. But the curse is just the explanation of why there is always an incarnation of demise's hatred, Link and Zelda. The curse is what allows Nintendo to play with the same setting/basic premise in different and unique ways. A legend told differently each time. We aren't going to get a "ending the curse" game because it would defeat the point.
@kit76149 exactly ending the curse would end the series
What would be so wrong about ending the series? They functionally have already. The new games are all but reboots, so the old continuity doesn’t really matter to Nintendo at this point.
@stanstanstan2597 I wouldn't say they're reboots necessarily. They're just set so far ahead of everything else that the way it connects isn't really apparent. Similar to our own world where new discoveries are being made to fill in gaps in history, the lost sections of Hyrule's timeline could be filled in as new games come out. They can always work backward from here to eventually connect it to the timeline. Even if they don't, though, I don't think it's really all that bad for Breath and Tears to be separate.
@@kakarikokage2514Idk man, the Zo so stuff and Secret Stones are hard to connect to the rest of the series, especially with the Triforce which is supposed to be the strongest artifact next to the Master Sword but these silly stones that come out of nowhere are suddenly way stronger
Also I think people overstate or are misled by just how much the likes of Aonuma contribute to the story. The Zelda Team is bigger than 3 people. While Aonuma mainly focuses on gameplay, now and then contributing to the story, the rest of the team is most likely the people who are responsible for the enjoyable stories we enjoy so much. The fact Aonuma prefers the style of BotW and TotK because of the fact they have a smaller emphasis on story and more about freedom makes it clear how much he himself cares about story.
But yeah, it's clear the rest of the Team is massively passionate about the lore and story. I mean, just look at how hard they fought to get TP 2 made.
I mean it depends right? Things like the wedding in MM and the relationship between the King of Red Lions and Link in WW are directly because of Aonuma's personal life experience so he clearly has quite a role if fairly major parts of these games are stemming from his personal history.
As far as BotW/TotK, the question is absolutely up in the air
@@NayruYThe could very easily be thinking "I wish I didn't have to write this much story, but if I'm going to write one, it better be the best story I can write"
@@hioman Exactly.
@@NayruYT One small correction: The wedding in MM was a collaborative effort among the development team. It was an idea that they had during the wedding of one of the team members, that just happened to take place during the time North Korea started to behave more aggressively towards other countries. They were talking about it during the reception, and apparently the idea of war breaking out during that very same wedding is what gave them the idea of the entire Anju and Kafei side story. Of course, Aonuma was part of that group, but also were Yoshiaki Koizumi and Mitsuhiro Takano (one of the main writers of the series who has been unfairly overshadowed by Koizumi).
King of Red Lions, however, was indeed all Aonuma. As a matter of fact, "The Wind Waker" is easily the most "Aonuma story" in the franchise, since he made the game for his then newborn firstborn, so he was the main writer too. He started writing the story of "Twilight Princess", but apparently he got overwhelm by the rest of the development of the game, so Takano took over, and he has distanced himself from the writing process ever since.
@@XanderVJ Wind Waker had such a good story… I guess it just shows that if Aonuma is willing to try, he can make a good plot, but he always focuses on other things. Do Takano and Koizumi still write for the series?
Lets be honest with ourselves here. The people who say what the title of this video says usually have never played any other Zelda game before besides BOTW or TOTK.
I think that is very often the case for sure
Or they just have bad memory and haven't played any earlier Zelda games since they released.
@@cleverman383 Thats somewhat fair, but then now they look dumb for saying "TOTK is the best Zelda game" when they barely remember a game like OOT.
BOTW has good environmental story telling, but like 95% of it was basically treated as obsolete by TOTK. Not that the main narrative of either game is good.
The narrative and world of TOTK is more than bad, it takes a lot of what was actually good about BOTW and actively makes it worse.
The Zonai went from this elusive race of animal-headed aliens who might have been based on the buddist cycle of rebirth, and they were just turned into shiekah tech 2.0.
@@orangejuice3235 Good point. I 100% agree.
This reminds when back in the 2010s, youtubers claimed that Sonic was never good.
YES!! That is exactly what this is like, thank you for reminding me!!!
As a Sonic and Zelda fan I’ve been finding it very hard to follow either series and their fandoms in recent years, very much starting in 2020
@@InkyGhoul I can relate
Ahh I remember that. I'm slowly getting back to the series after the regurgitation of that made hesitant to play them.
@@docbaker3333 It's hard being a sonic fan sometimes but I think it's worth it when a good sonic game comes out.
If they didn’t care about story why make skyward sword the beginning of the timeline, what’s the point of making an origin story if the games are supposed to be their own separate thing
A very good point!
Exactly, it was made to be a origin story and went over the backstory of the master sword and why there is a cycle of reincarnation in the first place between Link Zelda and Ganondorf.
Nintendo has had a rough timeline for the Zelda franchise for most of its existence, with the only game that wasn't really thought out in any way before BotW or TotK being Four Swords Adventures. You can find them referring to the timeline multiple times in interviews before it was officially published in Hyrule Historia for the 25th anniversary. Its a shame they seem to have dropped it so suddenly.
@@Fa1seP0sitiveFour Swords Adventures was heavily and specifically thought out. Did you perhaps mean the first Four Swords?
@@JacobNintendoNerd99 no. The first four swords game was said to be the first game chronologically at it's point of release, which it did end up being in the official timeline. When four swords adventures released, they said it comes straight after four swords but it couldn't because it has ganon in it and he's sealed at the end. If ganon was sealed at the end of a game right before ocarina of time, ganondorf would never have been born. In the official timeline, this is the only one they moved from what they'd previously said in interviews. it's nothing to do with the story in the game, it's about how it connects to other games
As far as I can see, this tired discourse lives up in the same premise of "simple characters are inherently bad written".
It's just one nonsensical, amateur claim, usually made by people who read only some footnotes on the subject once or twice.
Bugs Bunny it's a simple character, however, his antics are very well written, specially because you know everything about him already, and yet he pulls out one trick that you weren't expecting. You know the layout, you know the intentions, and you even know he WILL get his way out at the ending, but your don't know how he will do it. Hence the endless creativity of Looney Tunes , Tom and Jerry, and so on. The pretentious discourse on how EVERYTHING should be multilayered, dubious, shady, unreliable or mysterious in order to present quality, it's nothing but one amateurish theory that sounds intelligent, or exigent, but in reality it's mundane as it can be.
Yep it is tiring. Feels very similar to how every director nowadays feels like they need to "subvert expectations" for their work to mean anything
@@NayruYTexactly.
So much seems to have gone from all things are similar, to all things are similar but dark and everyone is secretly evil.
(Somewhat hyperbolic in my part, but when the heroes in an adaptation do worst things than the villains in the source, I get kinda jaded).
Straightforward can still be deep.
A classic good versed evil can still have fantastic story arcs.
And an asynchronous story can still have meaningful character growth.
Also this video pointed out something I've never noticed.
The trauma young again Link had to deal with was probably a way the world of the game (act of the goddesses/triforce?) to guide along a measure of recovery in Termina. (Hero's Shade notwithstanding - even a bit of making peace doesn't erase the wounds and regret).
@@Grandwigg I think I missed about all that stuff playing Ocarina. Like your friend being sad you are leaving yet you can just walk back to the village in game does not help.
Realizing that 17 year old (Adult Link) is just a 10 old who slept for 7 years. Awaking mentally as a child in an "adult's" body faced with destruction of Hyrule. That shit shook me hard. All I could think about was my child. Still my Favorite of all.
He gets hit both directions! Becomes a 17-year-old with the mind of a child, lives an adult's experience, and then is sent back in time to his child body with the memories of his adulthood. Poor guy!!!
@@NayruYT yes. He out of time and place. Since day one. Maybe Zeldas brother. If you buy into that. I wish I could play through it for the first time one last time..
The first time I played OoT was in Walmart display n64 didn't know what I was playing but I remember it was at the temple of time
@NayruYT true, but he still has a mind of a child
There's text in majoras mask that suggests it, such as him viewing the stiff between Kafei and Anju as "adult matters" that he doesnt understand (showing he probably still views himself as a child as well) and there is an innocence like not understanding the ulterior motives motives
Ofc being sent back in time still inst easy as he probably feels alone in that no one knows what he went through and has no one to confide in
@@Nova-gh5yr Yeah, I never personally bought that Link fully grew up at the end of Ocarina. There's a bit were the Owl tells Link that he's fully matured into an adult, but I thought that it was ironic that Owl tells him with he's in his child body. In any case, Majora's Mask shows that there's a lot he still needs to learn as you pointed out.
He's does appear to be close to Zelda after Ocarina given the one cutscene she appears in, so he might not have been alone as it might appear at first.
everyone always discounts the portable zelda games
completely ignoring the sadness and regret of leaving words unsaid in phantom hourglass
(that last argument that linebeck and ciela had still breaks my heart with linebeck turning around before just as he fades away)
ignoring an innocent youth being corrupted just from the darkness in the hearts of man
ignoring a princess that actually fought along side link multiple times in a suit of armor to save her kingdom
these stories are every bit as good as oot, mm, ww, tp or ss
I mean one of the games here is Link's Awakening so I definitely didn't ignore them!
Spirit Tracks had a fantastic story too, and yes it's because of Byrne and Ghost Zelda.
@@catdownthestreet ghost Zelda best Zelda!
@@domennysometimesplays2484 you're absolutely correct
I think he did it bc if he explored in deep every zelda the video would last like 6 hours but it’s implicit those tales are excellent, spirit tracks will always be one of the best Zelda’s ever haha
Ever thought video about making a video about "underrated Zelda stories"? I think Spirit Tracks, Phantom Hourglass, and A Link Between Worlds might have something there!
It is a great idea!
I adore all of these games and their stories are amazing.
Unironically, top-down/2D Zelda supremacy on every level... except Link's Awakening. The constant textbox pop-ups are worse than Twilight Princess.
LETS GOOOO SO HAPPY TO SEE THIS ONE UP!!! Thanks for letting me be apart of it homie!!!
Thank you for taking part, I appreciate it as always!
HELL YEAHHHHH
These days people think simple stories are inherently bad, everything has to be either super cinematic or Fromsoft levels of complicated to be good or something. I cannot tell you how much I miss simple but effective storytelling, as someone who doesn't have the patience to dive into the lore of stuff like Elden Ring or sit through hundreds of cutscenes in Red Dead.
On Majora's Mask, I think a thing that is often pointed out but the true story is often missed, the explorations of grief and loss are not intended. The 5 stages of grief in particular being represented were flatly unintended... But they're still there. The story of Majora's Mask's development is almost as fascinating as the story of Majora's Mask itself. The rushed development happening over a bet, the time limit in-game being reflective of the 1 year deadline the Zelda team had and the stress that came with it, Aounuma literally having a nightmare about the game and coming into the office to see his nightmare was made as a cutscene without any input on his part. Majora's Mask is a fascinating game in all aspects, and how the emotions of the development team were so intricately woven into the very fabric of the game I think more than any other game ever made shows that games are art, are expressions of the artists and developers. And the world is all the better for it.
I personally really enjoyed the Tears story. But, the way they told the story is the biggest problem. Not to mention the.. more or less saying the same thing multiple times with the sages from their own slightly altered perspective. Cut that a bit, expand a bit more on the Zonai, and the people in the past in general, the whole thing with Mineru is so well done, along with the side story of Hudson and Rhondson's daughter being beautifully done. In all, those things, including that side story, are really well done.
The actual story telling via finding the tears, is slightly.. less well done. The viewing it out of context isn't great, it's a problem. That same problem is with Breath, telling the story via glimpses in the past, what's wrong with doing what other open world games do, and having you IN the story, not looking at what happened during the story in the past.
And yes, I agree, the hot takes on the stories always being bad is hot garbage.
DEMON KING??? SECRET STONE???
Haha but yeah I basically agree with you
In tears I really liked how Zelda and ganondorf were done personally. I have never felt so motivated to save Zelda and utterly destroy ganondorf in a Zelda game.
There are honestly some interesting ideas in totk but they're kinda buried in a bunch of mid-to-bad storytelling decisions. It'd be impossible on the Switch but instead of the skies/the depths, I would have preferred swapping between the present and past instead. Sort of like Ocarina did. Link feeling so disconnected to the plot was such a hinderance on it being a good story.
I agree! I loved the interesting ideas the story had, but I think its presentation really bogged it down. Parts could have been thought out better too, and the ending was super cool but I wish there had been some consequences left behind on the world/characters.
I'd agree - also a bit too much focus on the McGuffins and a very unhappy middle-ground between "human villain" and "force of nature" when characterising Ganondorf imo, but the method of delivery was the biggest issue by far.
Honestly for me it's just a passable Zelda story, that could have been a lot better with relatively few changes. Nothing more, nothing less.
2:30 this is why it's so insane to hear people praising breath of the wild and TOTK for "getting back to the original Zelda formula" when they are further from being "true" Zelda games than any other entry in the franchise
The really tragic thing about the stories in the new Zelda games is that they're actually good symbolism in those games. Look at BotW. Take out the dumb regional stories and the memories, and what you have is a game where you wake up a dead world, and conquer 4 titanic beasts. It's almost Shadow of the Colossus. Theres so much potential there. And then look at TotK, take out all the friendship is magic bullshit and the god awful "durrrr where could zelda be!?!?!" and it's a game about a dead hero who returns from heaven, and descends into the earth to slay a demon in hell.
Yeah the symbolism of the newer games is routinely excellent
I've noticed that this has become a very common defense for anything lately especially for twitter takes
They've always try to gaslight people into thinking Old thing is bad and new thing is on par (Which ironically paints the thing they're defending as terrible as well) I never understood this whole thing of defending something why tearing other things down arguments
Yeah I have definitely noticed it outside of Zelda as well
they haven't experienced the full series.
same kinda thing since like 2011 where people take others' word for it that "2011 Hunter x Hunter is better than 1999" without actually watching past the old anime's episode 10 where the animation starts to go crazy & just assume its the case that the newer one is better - or commonly from the time as well "Hunter x Hunter is better than One Piece" without them watching/reading the then-500 episodes of One Piece - so on & so forth. the social media problem, internet telephone, game of real-life Telephone...just so many misunderstandings as life has happened
I think it's a cycle. People see others tearing down stuff to prop up what they like, so they do the same. For example, when BotW came out I absolutely loved it, but I saw people tearing it down and comparing it to OoT. People got mad at me and called me names because I said I loved BotW. This made me angry so I started doing the same thing as them: I started tearing OoT down to defend BotW. Basically we see other people being toxic and we become toxic ourselves because we're angry. It's a cycle that's difficult to break when you spend time on the internet
I'm really surprised you didn't talk about wind waker! It's probably my favourite zelda story, with themes like growing up and moving on from the past. Great video tho! You deserve wayyy more subs
Kind of you! Wind Waker is actually my favorite game ever, I just didn't include it because I wanted to have some level of impartiality here haha. As well I think explaining why the story is good is a little bit more difficult than with the other games, because the other games have strong themes that can be pointed to, whereas with Wind Waker, it's greatness kind of comes in the sum of its parts, which takes a while to explain!
@@NayruYT also my fav zelda! i kind of agree in a way, wind waker is harder to explain, but i wouldn't say it's because it doesn't have "strong themes" like the others. if anything, i'd argue its themes are the strongest and clearest compared to the rest; the king of hyrule literally spells it all out at the very end that this game was about finding hope in a ruined world, about letting go of the past, etc.
the reason it's harder to explain is actually because i think the wind waker develops the most cohesive plot and worldbuilding over the course of its playtime compared to the other games, so in some ways telling the story would effectively be the same as reading out an audiobook. link's awakening's story is resonant but admittedly pretty simple, and ocarina of time, skyward sword, and twilight princess all feature a few too many "tangents" from their central plots due to the larger number of dungeons. majora's mask is the only one i think really competes with wind waker when it comes to forming a cohesive plot where everything locks together perfectly, but so much of its value also comes from the multitude of sidequests that if we're being real do vary in terms of narrative relevance. all in all, wind waker really do be the type of zelda game to deserve its own entire video when it comes to this topic lol.
still, totally agree with the basic premise of the video that "zelda has never been about the story" is insane, insane, insane levels of cap. zelda has not only had storytelling as a central component arguably since the switch to 3D; if anything it's actually been THE key of the entire franchise despite what the devs themselves might say. the world, the dungeons, the bosses, all these things have ALWAYS been first and foremost there to present a feeling of going on an adventure, and any good adventure NEEDS A GOOD STORY! it needs STAKES! it needs heroes and villains, twists and turns, memorable characters and moments! there's no point to an adventure that doesn't make you feel things about what the characters are going through, makes you care about the things they care about, makes you INVESTED in confronting the challenges set before you! so great vid, man, really enjoyed watching it!
Don’t forget Wind Waker has the best written Ganon too. WW and MM will always be my favorite Zelda games.
While Wind Waker has its plot issues from keeping it be my favorite. But WW does have a strong theme to point out when you look at the end. It cared about Ocarina of Time's continuity on the other side.
It's really frustrating when people seem to equate simple stories with bad stories. Simple stories are not inherently bad! This is personal speculation but I think it comes from the hammering in of characters being one dimensional in poorly written stories, so people equate one dimensional as bad (not to say every zelda character/story is one dimensional), but some of my favourite Zelda characters don't even get a story of their own. Agitha is just a weird girl that likes bugs, but her outfit and house and way of speaking are so unique she sticks in my head, you don't need to be told what her inner world is like, because it's all right there to see in a single room.
A story about the guy saving the girl isn't a bad story just because it's simple, what can make it bad is how it's written, and I really don't think Zelda has been badly written in the past.
I say it a lot and I’ll say it again. BOTW/TOTK fans ≠ Zelda Fans.
I wouldn't say Zelda stories are ever super deep but I would agree that they aren't bad by any means. Even the simple ones like in the original Legend of Zelda aren't bad, they are just simple stories meant to give you a goal to beat. And games like Link's Awakening and Majora's Mask have shown that you can take Zelda stories in interesting ways.
I think Majora's Mask is genuinely deep, but I also don't think a story needs to be "deep" to be good! And you are correct that even in their simplistic forms, the story for the NES original is definitely serviceable
I think Zelda is a series that was always pretty good at managing to give simple, short stories and far more complex character-drive stories equal spotlight and importance, and even those that don't have much story present interesting ideas for their time in that time given.
Even Wind Waker which is at a glance simple and childish tells the story of a world born from the back of a dead old world and not only covers some notably darker subject matters but depicts the trio in their most morally grey, with Ganon being more of an anti-villain desperate to undo his own destruction even to the detriment of the new world and 'Zelda' having grown up almost as a reflection of the life and circumstances that made him the way he is. A lot of this isn't focused on or emphasized as much as it probably could have been but the ideas are still clearly there.
It also delves into an interesting dynamic, which is that Ganon and the king of Hyrule are too similar in their thoughts and desires, as both were desperate to bring old glory back, and the king's focus on tradition itself actually was to a detriment when having 'Zelda' fill the role she normally fills only resulted in her being taken anyway. This even culminates in him deciding neither he nor Ganon have reason to exist in this new world.
Honestly, until recently it felt as though everything beyond Ocarina, after changing major writers, had a much greater focus on distinct, more complex story-writing and even tried to establish Link as more of his own person with a proper hero's journey (even Ocarina had hints of this).
The classic, more simple stories would usually be relegated to portable titles but even they would often have something to them that allows them to stand out, such as Link Between Worlds' inversion/perversion of the major aspects of the three pivotal characters (Hilda being short-sighted and willingly cruel from desperation, Ravio being too much of a coward to hold to his duty and being unable to council his charge in time of need, and Yuga lacking much in physical strength and relying on siphoning power from others to achieve perfection).
WW Link is not really morally grey in any way I can remember. Infact, OOT Link is closer to that description since he is ready to do some fairly nasty things to progress.(Some of them are mandatory, but some are also just optional) Ruining the well by draining the water, plundering graves, cheating at fair, unrigged games(even if they are gambling), potentially leaving a petty thief dead permanently, etc.
@@lpfan4491 Except I said most morally gray trio. I'm not only using Link as a frame of consideration and I never was.
Link in WW is the middle ground. He at first went on his journey for personal reasons; that being to save his sister from the entity he only knew as Ganon. He is not driven by a world-saving task by a higher power (at least at first) but his reasoning is still largely selfless and courageous.
However, when comparing the way Ganon carries himself, being more tired, sad, remorseful but ultimately still arrogant and undeterred, or 'Zelda'/Tetra who has a history of theft and is known to be self-serving and who surprises her followers when showing concern to their other counterparts there is no denying they are both far more morally gray by comparison. It is not as much of a cut and dry good versus evil.
While Ganon does not stop from his actions, and him talking about it can be seen as an excuse, he does give an explanation and reasoning for his actions that are understandable, while also making it clear he views the gods as cruel hypocrites.
By contrast, while their depiction is largely romanticized, Tetra is ultimately a pirate. She steals and harms others, even if she is shown to at her core still be altruistic when it comes down to it.
Pacing and delivery can make a simple story entertaining or a great story drag on. Zelda knows /how/ to tell a story
This is exactly like when people said god of war wasnt deep until the new ones. People are stupid and their opinions are garbage
I love the ending statement, ur so real for that
I'm a totk fan. I got into Zelda from botw. However, I have since played other Zelda games, so I don't like it when people put down the other games to defend totk, those other games are what brought the series to where it is now. I still like the game but I acknowledge that the story has its problems. Maybe it's because I'm not that attached to lore as other fans are which allows me to enjoy it but really the argument that all of Zelda's stories are bad is just stupid and childish.
That's the way to be!
Phenomenal video! I'm so glad to see people still sharing their passion and appreciation for these wonderful stories and giving Zelda the acknowledgement it always has rightfully deserved. You made many very good points that I've been thinking about for over a decade and this new disingenuous discourse in the fandom has left me quite appalled too, it's a ridiculous thing to claim. But even regardless of all that, thank you in general for making this! I really believe this series should get more credit for its storytelling and emotional weight.
That is very kind of you, thanks so much!
one thing i like about links awakening that i feel wasn't mentioned is that the game implies link will die if he stays sleeping. from an owl statue:
"THE WIND FISH
SLUMBERS LONG...
THE HERO'S LIFE
GONE..."
You could maybe argue this means his life is gone since he's wasting it away in a dream but it's something to think about. :3
Totk story feels like a rough draft, it's not devoid of good moments, but it feels sparse compared to previous Zelda stories in a way that's kinda hard to nail down. After watching this though I think I've somewhat pieced together the issue; 1. escalation of stakes, 2. a companion.
1. Zelda stories usually start out simple enough, WW/TW/SS someone you care about gets captured and you need to save them, OoT you go on an adventure to keep Ganondorf from getting the triforce, but as you go through the games you uncover a deeper conspiracy of the world, WW it turns out the man who kidnapped your sister was the ancient evil that caused Hyrule to be drowned by the gods, which is now the ocean that you live in. In OoT Ganondorf succeeds in getting the triforce and now there's this drastic shift of urgency and tone as you explore this now drab, ruined Hyrule that previously was full of color and joy, hoping you can fix everything. The stakes change, the objectives change, the way you see the story changes, and totk just doesn't have that. From beginning to end you know what's going on, you need to beat the demon king by awakening the sages, and that remains your goal throughout the game up until you confront Ganondorf. there's no mid story goal change, or building revelations. Even after you confront fake-zelda nothing changes, theres no escalation of urgency, you just find the last sage and go fight Ganondorf. It also doesn't help that the dragon tear quest is very underwhelming, It's meant to serve as the "deeper conspiracy" that you uncover, but it's not particularly all that shocking, and aside from Zelda becoming a dragon, it was all stuff that could have easily been explained by Rauru at the beginning of the story, or pieced to us by each of the ancient sages and Mineru; it easily could have been summarized in 5 cutscenes. Even Zelda becoming a dragon, while an emotional scene on its own, doesn't change ANY of your goals. There could have been a really nice goal change where after you find all the sages, you find out Zelda is the dragon, and since she's the sage of time, you need her help to stop Ganondorf, so you research with Impa about any ways to cure draconification, which eventually leads you to a 6th temple. It still would've been a "find the sages" quest but it at least would have a different spin on it.
2. Along these quests we also usually have companions that speak and react to events that Link encounters on his journey, acting as a source of exposition and/or give Link abilites to use along his adventure. The very best of these companions are used to impact the story in meaningful ways, usually with their own character arcs. However not all Zelda stories NEED companions, some stories Link is alone, the best example of this is of course botw. The meat of Botw story mostly takes place in the past, characterizing the champions, endearing us to them and showing us the legacy they left behind. But more than that this approach to the story shows is something, Link has NO ONE, he lost EVERYTHING, his friends, his home, and his memories. He is a failure, and yet he's the last sliver of hope Hyrule has to avoid complete devastation. In a story like that a companion would just be distracting from the somber tone.
This approach does not work in totk. Hyrule is not the same desolate land it was, it's people are rebuilding, reconnecting, the land is healing, and yet totk still feels just as lonely as botw. A way to correct this would've been to have a companion, a source of kinship to make the world feel less barren, specifically it could have been either Rauru or Mineru. Both could have served as guides to Link throughout the sky islands or the depths, providing little tidbits on Zonai culture and architecture we find. How the Zonai came to be in Hyrule, the origin of the secret stone, all these little details that we are told once and then never elaborated upon, could have served as excellent dialogue while exploring, just to remind players that "hey, your not so alone anymore". There's also numerous outlets for how we could see their character development. For Rauru I'd write him to be at first reluctant to open up to Link about the events of the past, about how his own foolishness led to his wife dying, how it caused the rise of Ganondorf, and his determination to make sure no one suffers anymore because of his mistakes. For Mineru I'd have her experiencing amnesia due to sleeping for tens of thousands of years, similar to what link went through, however much more sever, with her personality being completely forgotten, maybe even thinking herself an AI that Zelda put into the Purah Pad. As we adventure she slowly remembers things about herself until eventually she remembers she's the sage of souls. Even if they kept the story the same, I'm positive giving Link a companion would have elevated the story significantly past what we got.
There's other smaller details that make totk story inferior to other Zelda games but these are the big 2 that I picked up on that I think would have made it better.
The prologue of the game felt amazing, it seemed like yeah this is a new game. But as soon as I went through the sky islands and the depths where every area is the same I felt so disappointed. Those people that kept saying it’s dlc were unfortunately right.
I just want to say that apart from Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks, I had never experienced a Zelda story, like at all.
Even then, I didn't understand anything that was going on in those games (I didn't understand English fully), and I never finished their last dungeons.
And despite being a practical newcomer to Zelda, I still was completely disappointed by TotK.
So it baffles me how anyone can defend a lackluster story, regardless of their familiarity with the franchise.
What frustrates me more, is that I could not give less of a lick if previous Zelda stories were bad; BotW had so much lore and potential, and I wanted to see it fully realized in its sequel.
I’ve been drifting away from the Zelda series for a few years now, and my disappointment with TotK just further solidified my isolation from the series.
But watching this video reminded me why The Legend of Zelda is my favorite game series ever. I legit started tearing up at the end of your Link’s Awakening section and hearing the credits roll of Skyward Sword just broke me.
I’m just so afraid of this series losing its identity and of never getting to experience the wonderful charm of these games for the first time again. Here’s to hoping the Zelda team is able to find their footing again with Echoes of Wisdom and beyond.
That is a very meaningful compliment, and I can understand your worries! Just remember that the Zelda team gets bored easily. Even if they say it now, I don't think this style of Zelda is here to stay forever.
I think it's also interesting that Aonuma puts a lot of content from his dreams into the Zelda games...that dream imagery carries so much symbolism that it's a perfect match for a visual/interactive medium like video games, and is able to pass onto us impressions of the themes of the game instead of out right telling them to us.
Nayru and little bean green cross over when?
@@FSR-1345 let's get it!
Immediately checking your channel out, you have some cool video ideas!
To echo some comments here, I thought the story to TOTK was actually good. Some good characters and pretty huge moments. There are just certain flaws in the execution (logic gaps if you did things out of order, the repeated post-dungeon cutscenes, the ending being a bit too easy and needing a better explanation).
WW and OOT will always be my GOATS for story.
Very fair!
I thought it had a couple of good ideas, but it was bad. If half of a sandwich is 5-star and the other is moldy, that doesn't mean it is good.
Characters have contradicting motivations and actions at the same time, half or more of the plot points only happen because all the characters involved are holding idiot balls, there is almost no characterization at all, all the story are flashbacks, the time-travel is lazy and a paradox, etc.
You could take the ideas that the story introduced and make a good story, but the story as it actually exists in the game is bad. I felt moved by some of the scenes, but the attachment to the characters that allowed me to become emotionally invested was purely based on my attachment to the main characters (Zelda, Link, and Ganon) from the previous games! Not from what happens in TotK.
I personally think that Zelda's stories aren't bad, but they aren't anything insanely extraordinary. I'm not gonna compare Zelda's stories to something like Mother 3, Rule of Rose, etc, because those games are especially story driven, while Zelda has a stronger focus on the gameplay. Zelda is my favorite game series, and in a bubble, the stories are great, but in the wide realm of RPGs, it isn't anything too particularly standout. That does not mean they are bad at all. I love Twilight Princess's and Wind Waker's stories, and my god, Majora's Mask is really good. I think BOTW and TOTK had the roots for a really good story, but didn't quite stick the landing.
I mean I don't know, I would absolutely feel comfortable putting Majora's Mask alongside something like Mother 3
@@NayruYTeven Mother 3s Devs compared Majora's Mask to Mother 3, when they cancelled the N64 Mother 3 they had compared the "focus on one main village" aspect to Majora's Mask
Wait Majora is a girl!? I never knew that I always thought Majora was just a Demonic bing with no gender.
I don't think there's ever been a canon answer! I just tend to refer to her as a girl because of the feminine cry when Majora is struck, in addition to Majora's name ending in "a" which is usually a feminine word ending
But really I think genderless is probably more accurate
I paused the video when I thought I heard him say “her” and my jaw dropped like some new magic came to my favorite game after all this time… my brain was too tiny to even consider majora not being male idk why, but like WHY NOT!!!?? NEVER EVEN THOUGHT ABOUT MAJORA BEING A GIRL BUT OMG I AM SO SO SO MAKING THIS CANNON WE NEEDED A BAD BITCH thx for blowing my mind love this ❤
31:43 as you describe the ending of Link’s Awakening, a game I have played many times and been touched by, I am struck by how much of an allegory it is to completing games in themselves. What is the satisfaction we get from completing the game and leaving the dream world and all of its characters behind to return to our real lives as the wind fish and link do to theirs-whether we are soaring in high skies and faring fortunately in our existence or adrift the last piece of our broken vessel, alone in a vast sea? As the wind fish says, the dreams will always exist, so long as we remember them-perhaps it is what Link sees in the sea gulls, maybe thinking of Marin and her own dreams of flying away, as the added cutscene suggests? Just as our own lives can become more meaningful and beautiful, no matter their circumstances because of these “dream” stories. Fantastic game, and fantastic story.
But, of course, for me, Majora’s Mask will always hold the trophy for greatest story-telling in a Zelda game. However, I have to add that I think, without the context of Ocarina of Time, Link’s own personal story suffers in that game. But that’s true of any true sequel-they’re not stand alone, hence why they’re a sequel! But the true success of the story of Majora’s Mask for me are the reflections of friendship, self-worth, duty, leadership, death (like you discussed), suffering/healing (as you also discuss), family, true love, maturity (in a different way from OoT in that the “adult” mind is now stuck living in a child’s body as opposed to sort of going back and forth between the two times/mental states as presented in Ocarina), and soooo many more themes, I could go on and on due to the side quests and the repetitive nature of the three days which give a kind of “what is the point of it all?” feeling when your hard work must be undone at the end of the cycle each time and the impossibility of “doing it all” due to the scheduling of the many many people-one can’t be a hero to everyone all the time-a hard reality to swallow for an actual hero who wants to help.
Great video Nayru, as always! You are exceptional, thank you for your hard work and that of the collaborators!
Your bit about LA is great, and I wonder if that is why people enjoy achievements so much, because they serve the same purpose as Link seeing the windfish at the end, to sort of confirm that the dream was real
Oh man, this video was NEEDED big time, thank you. Great stuff Nayru, Wiz, Tyler and Bread, this was an awesome watch!
Thank you Geist, means a lot!
I don't think I've ever heard anyone saying this whole "Zelda stories were always bad" thing. What I've seen a lot is people claiming that the story was never the main focus on Zelda games, which I personally agree with.
I just wish we’d get more reoccurring antagonists besides Ganon that could appear alongside him. Hopefully Veran, Onox and Vaati make a big comeback one day.
Absolutely!
I can see Vaati making a comeback given his "missing" status in the Adult and Downfall timelines but Onox and Veran are hardly able to comeback given their backstories as "children" of Ganon in the Downfall Timeline giving little plausibility for them to return after their (SPOILERS) deads in the Oracle duology. I feel it's already due time for _new_ villains to come around to spare the series from becoming stale through the rehashing of the same villains over and over again.
I agree
@@javiervasquez625true but they only die in the downfall timeline, and Ganon and Vaati have died many times and seemingly return
@@DjDeadpig They were *born* and died in the Downfall Timeline specifically, giving little incentive (and convenience while at it) for the Gerudo Ganondorf from the Adult and Child timelines to have also created them in the aforementioned 2 timelines. Meanwhile both Vaati and Ganondorf were both born _before_ the splitting of the timelines explaining why both have the ability to appear across multiple games in all 3 timelines. Onox and Veran don't have such a benefit as the 2 were specifically created in the Downfall Timeline while Ganon was sealed within the Sacred Realm confirming their existence to be an isolated event within this specific timeline and by extension making it impossible for their random creation to take place in either of the other 2 timelines.
Twilight Princess is so insane, man. Greatest game of all time, IMHO.
14:09 - FF7 is interesting in terms of facial expressions- it released early in the PS1 lifespan, and the graphics are expectedly primitive. I've recently noticed something, though, the devs attempt to get around this limitation by using exaggerated body language. Seriously, next time you replay the original FF7, pay attention to all the arm waving, fist-shaking, shoulder shrugging, head shaking, etc. I never really considered that when I was a child, but it seems kinda goofy and excessive as an adult. However, I've realized why they did it, and I appreciate the effort!
I always wanted to see the windfish come back sometime.
It's been happening a lot this recent years. Star Wars is the prime example. Sequel trilogy defenders usually go for the "it was never good" argument as well.
This is so true. Also wheel of time butcher adaptation and rings of power defenders.
I often hear a similar argument with media, like "Doctor Who has always been political" (therefore, complaints about the hyper-political recent seasons are invalid). I think the one using the argument is appealing to some kind of legitimacy, trying to shut down criticism by making sweeping statements. While it's not politics here, it feels like they're doing the same.
To be far, there were plenty of dumb gamers who were saying "Zelda never had good storytelling" long before BotW came out though. This is not a new opinion at all.
Twilight princess and its story and cinematics makes totk look like dogwater.
Haha fair!
Cry harder
Twilight Princess is the only game in the entire franchise that managed to establish an interesting story in its first half, and then managed to completely ruin it in the second half, and this being a smaller game with a linear narrative lmao. Unfortunately, nostalgia prevents fans from seeing this, at least some of them, since TP has a good amount of haters, I'm not going to say it doesn't deserve it.
@@schutze1399 In a bubble perhaps, but what about Windwaker? Or Majoras Mask? Or even (as much as I struggle to enjoy the gameplay mechanics and it carries issues that would carry into the Switch games (lack of enemy variety for one) Skyward Sword... The point is Twilight Princess is the weakest story in the post Ocarina period of the franchise, and it still trounces TotK.
I love TP's story!
I know the 3DS OoT version looks better but why are you using that version in comparison to games around '96/'97? It doesn't look revolutionary when you use the remake version from years later. I have the N64 virtual console version on Wii, so yeah, it's a great game with a good story but at least show the original version....
In hindsight you are correct it would have been better to use the N64 version! The truthful reason is that I edited this video away from home on a pretty weak PC that can't emulate or capture, and all I had in storage was OoT 3D cutscenes! But your criticism is very valid
I feel the way about the story telling of ocarina the way I think others feel about the Star wars trilogy. It's not just a mono-mythic story but THE mono-mythic story. Especially in regards to the medium of games. Being able to see subtle religious allusions to our real world helped to make it feel all the more impactful for a young man entering his teen years. The skyward sword subplot of Zelda knowing that Link loved her, and manipulating him to become a hero with those emotions also really hit me in my early adult years. Windwaker even went as far as to humanize Ganondorf to be not just a tyrant, but a king who wanted to bring the prosperity of another nation to his own people. I've never understood the argument that Zelda has never had good stories, so I'm glad you've spoken out against this idea circulating around the community.
Yes everything here!
i do not regard any person who said that the story of zelda doesn't matter as a real fan in the slightest.
I mean, I enjoyed Tears of the Kingdom's story, but I'm surprised people think ALL Zelda stories are bad. I guess it's a good thing I don't use Twitter or dig too deep into TH-cam comments.
TotK kinda felt like it was trying too hard to be an anime. Spirit Tracks' story was straight up an anime.
Byrne is basically just Sasuke Uchiha
I would be 100% fine with a Spirit Track's anime adaptation.
"Japanese people writes Japanese-feeling story"
YOU DON'T SAY!
@@Mari_Izu I in fact did not say that.
@@Mari_Izu Not all Japanese story telling feels anime. In fact Ghibli movies are animes but they don't feel anime at all.
Came here after beating Majora’s Mask for the first time in years and I could not agree more with everything you said about it. It’s not only a great story by Zelda standards, but a great story period, with some of the most potent writing I’ve ever experienced in a game. You mentioned a lot of the broader plot moments, but I also want to mention how the specific plots in Great Bay and Ikana Canyon unfold, because I thought they were also fantastic.
The level of character written into the Zora band on top of the tragic irony of you stepping in as Mikau after his death was really compelling to me. It was a plot beat that was extremely fun and charming in some places, but with a constant undercurrent of sadness knowing that once Link leaves, Mikau is gone for good. I really loved what they did there, and it led Great Bay to probably being my favorite area for plot besides Clock Town.
I also just adored the atmosphere of Ikana Canyon, aided by the writing. Every interaction you have with any NPC in this area establishes it as a land of souls unable to move on. The ghost Sharp, the skeletons in Ikana Castle, the Garo, Captain Keeta and his crew, every soul there feels like they could have once been a Darmani or a Mikau. Not to mention the incredible visuals and music, especially in the Stone Tower Temple. I think Majora’s Mask’s plot is largely remembered for what happens in Clock Town, but I found the story to be deeply compelling in totality (except *maybe* in Snowhead but even then it was still pretty good there).
I'mma be real, tears of the kingdom was honestly just garbage in its entirety, literally 70$ dlc. I'm not trolling it really was that unenjoyable, I had fun with it of course but it just wasn't it
that is your opinion though, i wouldnt say the entire game was garbage and actually did well in most aspects, but fell flat in some areas that most of the players wanted to be improved and worked upon
@@goonballoon literally just breath of the wild with extra steps
I think of zelda stories as being like a good short story. Not wordy, not extensive; but they can be deep and powerful.
Absolutely! I often enjoy Le Guin's short stories more than need novels for example
TOTK was an improvement over BOTW in almost every way, but both of the Switch Zelda games fall far short of storytelling standards that have been set by the rest of the franchise. OOT and MM tell some of the most engaging, meaningful, and impactful stories found in gaming as a whole, putting the Switch Zelda games to shame by comparison. One is perfectly capable of still enjoying BOTW and TOTK in their own right while still acknowledging this obvious fact.
Yeah I totally agree
I love BotW's story and think it's one of the best in the series. You thinking it's bad isn't a fact, it's your opinion. No Zelda story has resonated and made me feel as much emotion as BotW's. Stop pretending your opinions are fact. I agree that TotK's story is dogshit, but BotW's definetely isn't.
TOTK story sucks. But BOTW story isn’t nearly as bad as you make it out to be. I agree with you on one thing, it isn’t as engaging as the other stories due to being set in the past. The present of the game has very little in terms of actual plot developments, which makes it less engaging for the player. But it’s definitely still emotional and has strong thematic weight and environmental storytelling. It fits right in with the themes and ideas of the series as a whole too. The passage of time, eternal struggle between good and evil, rise and fall of civilizations, is all very well explored through BOTW, arguably more than any other Zelda game. I wouldn’t say it’s the absolute best of the series but it stands well compared to the others despite being very different. Nowhere near the level of TOTK whose story is absolutely atrocious as a sequel, doesn’t fit in with the rest of the series, and barely even makes sense in its own right. Putting them on the same level is absolutely crazy to me.
In fact no, Botw has one of the best stories in Zelda while Totk totally ruins everything Botw did perfectly, Totk has one of the worst stories not only in Zelda but in all gaming
@@NayruYThow can you agree with this when you also agreed to a coment that said the contrary to this, like wtf
"X WaS AlWaYs BaD" is such a meme of an ""argument"". Every single defender of something falls back on this argument and it's honestly just so pathetic. It's just plain whataboutism. And even if one thing was bad in the past (99% of the time it wasn't)... why does it have to be bad now?? We're critiquing the CURRENT thing, not the past thing. As in, the most recent entry in a franchise or a series. If we were critiquing the past thing, we would BE CRITIQUING THE PAST THING.
People are so braindead and have just accepted mediocrity for so long their minds have grown numb to it
Disney Star Wars fans always do this, and it makes me so annoyed. Star Wars was never overly complex in its storytelling, but the storytelling wasn’t bad.
@@Enigma75614Nah Star Wars was always bad, and then used to sell garbage products.
They just went for a different public, and kept it just as bad.
@@charnalk5572 Again, just because the writing wasn’t overly complex doesn’t mean that it was bad. There weren’t plot holes the size of the Grand Canyon like we see now.
@@Enigma75614 There were in fact so many plotholes, and decisions that barely made any sense or straight conflicts with other movies in their own trilogies.
No, Star wars was never good.
It was at best something you watch with your brain turned off because of the interesting setting and visuals.
Don't get me wrong, the IP does some good stuff, but the movies are rarely (if ever) one of them.
@@charnalk5572 Point out some plot holes then
Idk what people are talking about, time and time again Tloz games have been some of my favourite stories in gaming and media as a whole. Link's awakening was the first piece of media to make me cry, i teared up this year replaying wind waker and twilight princess, skyward sword i played when i was young and that game's story sticks with me much more than something like Tlou or Rdr2. More than that Zelda is my favourite franchise ever partly due to stories, and if i had to pick one i like more than the rest i can't, because in my eyes: Totk, Tp, MM and Link's awakening are all perfect games. and yes Totk is perfect imo, and I personally love the story there, and in botw, i teared up at the end of both. Man Zelda in general is just so good.
Zelda is in fact, really darn good
I personally feel like Link's Awakening, while it has a fantastic story concept, ultimately falls flat. I usually hate (it's all a dream) stories, but I feel like LA could have potential, since it could play on the morality of ending the dream. But I think the hardware limitations ultimately prevents it from exploring those themes meaningfully.
And I actually think Skyward Sword's story is garbage. It has great characters, but the actual story is nonsense, and in my opinion, retroactively hurts the rest of the series if taken at face value.
I don't say this to disagree with your point; Zelda stories are rarely bad. They are usually passable to decent. But I feel like ALBW and WW would have been stronger contenders for this video than SS and LA.
I would be interested to hear how you think LA fails, since I think it explores its theme about as well as can be expected given the limitations!
And we'll just have to agree to disagree on Skyward Sword haha
@NayruYT I'd like to start off by saying I intend no hate towards LA, it's one of my favorite Zelda games, and maybe videogames in general.
I just feel like you don't really get to know the characters and world well enough to really feel the weight of their destruction. Obviously everyone's experience is going to be different, but I never felt super connected to any of the inhabitants of Koholint like I did with, say, the inhabitants of Termina.
I think that if LA was reimagined with more sidequests, and just more indepth character interaction in general, it would go a long way to helping.
And yes, agree to disagree on SS. I know my opinion on that game is pretty unpopular (I love the gameplay and dislike the story.) Sorry if I came off as overly negative though, this was a good video.
Link’s Awakening is pretty good but I agree it’s getting a ton of nostalgia glow. Skyward Sword, on the other hand, actually threatened to unravel continuity and reduced the depth of characters like Ganondorf. Hylia and Demise are pointless additions that turn the really cool setup of morally agnostic goddesses and the people of Hyrule just having to figure it out and protect the overwhelming power they left behind. Now SS didn’t ACTUALLY break the series or canon but it did deteriorate it and the fact that it’s not ripped to shreds by the community while TotK is, is beyond me. Zelda is slightly spunky and less regal, that’s evidently enough to cover for the fact that it’s a bad ankle weight on the series and don’t even get me started on how every single new species is an absolute L in every respect.
Almost every story in every Zelda game I have played is fantastic. I don’t think a Zelda game has had a story I haven’t liked.
What about the Tingle games 🤔
I'm surprised you didn't mention Pamela in the Majoras mask section, one of the best parts of the game Imo. Amazing video btw.
Thank you very much! And yes that definitely was a great moment as well. Too many to name them all, what a masterpiece!
"zelda games have always had bad story"
looks at the thousands of zelda lore videos on youtube pre Breath, not to mention all the zelda web pages before the age of youtube...(the majority of lore covered is in game events mind you)
wut?
just because people make lore videos on something doesn't mean the story is good.
@@user-xo5zu1lw2w it kinda does. It was good enough to inspire making the videos, and there was clearly the interest in it to keep making more
This is why I love Majora's Mask so much which makes the new sequel game for Breath of the Wild, Tears of the Kingdom, feel like a pale comparison when it comes to impact and weight.
Another issue is that the last two games have been more in the aftermath while the story was told earlier outside of our control, in BotW we're picking up where Link had left off. In TotK we're cleaning up the mess Ganondorf left behind like a janitor while Zelda is experiencing the past and fighting in the Imprisoning War.
All I can say is that if Link had gone back in time with Zelda, the map could've been different (yet still be the same), all the characters would've been new, we would've been in the action from the start and MAYBE even save Sonia and Rauru from having to die.
Also Spirit Tracks has the been expressive and most active princess since she's a companion in that game. While Link Between Worlds is the closet game that combines the openness of open world game play with deep story from the older games.
Spirit Tracks is a tough one for me because I genuinely think it has some of the best character writing in the entire series, including in comparison to the 3D games, but I think the plot itself is pretty bad. So while I think it is brilliantly written, I have a hard time considering the story good. If that makes sense at all lmao
I dunno, like MM whenever you beat a major dungeon stuff in said region changes to reflect that giving it impact and weight. In TOTK you are finishing what was started and finishing Ganondorf for good. It feels personal when Ganon has been a major thorn in your side for 2 games now which spans over a century at least.
@@Jdudec367 What makes me disagree is that he's lounging around down in the depths regaining strength while Majora only gives you three (in game) days to get stuff done. Sure you can reset the three days but its the feeling of importance AND pressure that makes me like MM more.
@@NayruYT It kind of reminds me of Zelda II in that regard, a demo steals Zelda's body so it can be possessed by a Stronger demon. Kind of like how the enemies in Zelda II need link's blood to resurrect Ganon.
Admittedly encircling the plot around trains might've been its biggest weakness to be fair. Though finally a zelda game where she's the companion makes it at least bearable to enjoy. Too bad TotK wasn't like that.
Majora's Mask is a great game with a good story, but that game is not a sequel, it is nothing more than a game that takes place after Ocarina of Time that makes a maximum of 3 references to its predecessor, 2 of which are poorly done and leave you confused, the other would just be an Easter egg. Wind Waker is the true sequel to Ocarina of time. The ending of OOT leaves many questions unanswered, and instead of MM answering them, it throws you into a parallel world with no explanation and even more questions arise, questions that to this day have no answer, for example, what is the land of Termina? Wind Waker answers the questions left at the end of OOT and even concludes the story for real, in another timeline of course.
This is a hot take, and I’m prepared for the consequences….
BOTW and TOTK are amazing sandbox games, but they aren’t good Zelda games. I’m seriously hoping they go back to the previous formula and gets off of the BOTW hype.
I sadly doubt this will happen, but the best Zelda games are not BOTW and TOTK.
This is not a hot take lmao this is one of the most common opinions rn amongst hardcore zelda fans
@@jpp4566 lol I appreciate that! I have thought that since BOTW was first introduced and making its debut and people were blowing up about it.
I think it is a really good game, but I won’t be playing it ever again since sandbox games grow stale…
@@jaxsonfanta5420 yeah thats a fair take imo, but zelda shouldnt return to the old formula, it should be less sandbox-y and more grounded, but have the freedom aspects of botw and totk, like the great sky island tutorial in totk is literally the combination of linear progression and freedom
Ah yes, the Hero with a Thousand Faces is a bad story. The Internet is full of brilliant individuals.
Pure geniuses!
the take comes because some people think "story" = "movies", the more movie-like it's presented, the more the story matters. The more text in it.
Nevermind one of Zelda's strengths is how often it conveys its narrative through the game itself.
Link's Awakening is really good at this. Ocarina of Time is excellent at this.
Also I disagree with the idea that Link's Awakening was the first game. A Link to the Past did put a lot of effort in the story. Maybe it's not a masterpiece of a story, but what is there is very present and I'm always surprised people don't consider it.
I do not hesitate for a second in saying it has the single strongest narrative begining of the entire series. Even the big Narrative games start like, Peaceful Tutorial Town. Here it immediately throws you into your only family left the house while you're being plead to go to the castle by a voice, and when you follow ignoring the guards telling you to go to bed you find out he's dying, and you must take up his sword and follow the voice.
Then through the first part of the game you get everyone encouraging you in what looks like a stereotypical hero story, only to catastrophically fail and the people believing in you being killed. These are not "additions" to the gameplay, it's driving the whole thing.
And it's just full of neat characters everywhere: The drunk old man that grieves his grandson who you later meet, Sahasrahla and his family in Kakariko who hide secrets from the guards and trust you despite your reputation, even the guys stuck in the Dark World are fun and interesting. My favourite character is a guard that during the start tells you how his fellow soldiers have all turned violent, and that it'll likely be a matter of time he does, and then when you meet him again he's become a mindless enemy like any other.
This is a game that literally has the line "Behold, the last moments of Princess Zelda!" and sincerely has you believe she dies right there in front of you.
A Link to the Past has a lot more depth than people acknowledge.
It really bothers me that people like MissClick (recently continued to childishly take jabs at the game during the announcement of Wisdom of Echoes) make claims like TotK's story is bad because there's no Triforce or Zelda isn't the focus of the story while at the same time claiming to be a big Zelda fan and have played them all. So they conveniently forget that a good chunk of them like Link's Awakening (which had a remake shortly before the release of TotK) and Majora's Mask, don't involve the Triforce or is focused on Zelda herself. They even go as far as to complain that NPCs that weren't even alive during the Calamity aren't talking about it in TotK like it was just yesterday. It's like getting mad that people now aren't talking about WW1 like it just happened.
The bigger Zelda TH-camrs have spent way too long being told they're correct that whenever they actually have a bad take on a Zelda game, they can't comprehend how they're wrong and just reject the idea of re-evaluating their position on the matter.
Ocarina of Time aged like wine. I think the only aspect that aged poorly was the graphics, but with the overhaul of the 3DS version, we can see how the game hold up in terms of design, and storytelling. And even graphics, I think N64 ocarina of time look way better than most games from that era. The story is simple, but so effective, the atmosphere, the sound track, everything just work together to create an amazing and memorable storytelling. I am sorry for Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom fans, but they are not even close to be as good as Ocarina of Time.
Nayru uploading two times within a month?? What is this sorcery?
Rumours about my death were greatly exaggerated
i wanna day that botw did have a good story, my favorite story. and thats because of all the environmental storytelling and how u need to seek out the memories and everything. you got as much lore and story as u put effort and curiosity into the game
That's totally fair!
Also the Champions and Zelda are great characters
Something I hate about the heroes journey criticism is that it was never a template. The heroes journey was an observation by an anthropologist of common story telling attributes in many stories regardless of age or era. Writers don't have a heroes journey checklist they're obligated to follow, it's just narrative interacting with human psychology.
I would disagree with the idea that tears of the kingdom had a bad story, what it does have is poor presentation of its story, so the good backbone gets shot like 2 dozen times on its way. It has poor terminology and retells part of its tale 6-7 times instead of expanding on it, it also refuses to tell its story in order, leaving the players discovery of it mostly random and taking away a lot of the potential investment to its twists and turns. It has in its core what it needs to be one of the best but it’s buried by poor decision making so as it is; it’s hard to rate it above a C.
I can definitely agree with that
thanks (sorry part of it got deleted when I updated it last time so I was adding it back)😅
I’m bad at using the TH-cam app xD
The biggest issue in the way it tells its story is that it uses the exact same method as Breath of the Wild, while the story itself is clearly meant to pan out in a way EXTREMELY different from Breath of the Wild. Even if the correct order for viewing the Geoglyphs was in the Forgotten Temple, there should've still been a linear lock behind viewing them. An incredibly easy fix would've been to have a more visible smoke plume or light signal whereever Impa was at the Geoglyphs, and color code them. Don't allow the player to unlock Geoglyphs out of order. Have green smoke or green light emanate from Impa's beacon at the Geoglyph that can be viewed, and red at the ones that can't. Boom. The story is un-spoilable.
@@mercury2157 yeah I definitely think even a grouped order where 2-3 are active at a time would have helped. Stories as an art form are usually somewhat linear. Or multi linear, multiple loosely tied plot lines , trying to write something satisfying with no dedicated ordering sounds like an impossible task. And by forcing players to experience it in that way , by not indicating ordering in any way that most players would discover, the plot was bound to suffer.
I hate the arguement of "the story has always been bad" or "who plays X game for the story" it's like bruh what.
i don't see why, when it comes to "defending" an aspect of a game they like, people drag it's predecessors down with it.
but i had no idea people were saying such things! that aside, it's great that you made a video like this in response. the zelda games have always had good and enjoyable stories attached to them. TOTK does have great premises and plot beats imo but it's evident that the open world aspect of the games hinders it's storytelling ability, and results in less than desirable outcomes being limited to flashbacks that you don't get to really participate in
(BOTW is kinda similar, but i think it handles it better with it's environmental storytelling, the champions, what they left behind, being the first of it's kind in the zelda series, etc.)
i hope they strike a good balance in the future!!
I totaly forgot about Links awakenings ending and now I have tears in my eyes... again. Thank you.
This was such a reassuring video to watch after all the infuriating gaslighting going on about the topic and how "I just got old and the stories feel more mundane"
Thank you for reminding me how much I love the stories of these games and how much they impacted me when I was younger
Thank you for watching and leaving such a nice comment!
I definitely enjoy Totk’s story. I think it has a really cool twist and a lot of interesting character moments, specifically with Zelda. But, the fact that things are out of order, makes it have less of an impact. It’s not that it’s a bad story. It’s poorly conveyed. Lore is really another conversation entirely. In my opinion, it does respect the lore of the series, while distancing itself enough in order to be more unique on its own. I definitely understand why people might feel that Totk doesn’t care about the lore, but I definitely disagree with that sentiment. It’s definitely a good story, but it’s hard to tell that story in an open format as opposed to a linear format.
A very fair opinion!
i think the biggest issue with totk’s story is everything BUT the cool moments with the dragons + imprisoning scene (which are amazing).
the rest of it just lacks depth and has details that don’t really make sense, and mainly it just doesn’t use up its time to make you care for the characters :(
which sucks cause i would’ve loved to be a fan of rauru, sonia, ganon etc. but there’s just so little to them…
I was of the same opinion for a long time, until I watched a video pointing out all the contradictions, inconsistencies, and dumb decisions in the story. Seriously, it's like Rise of Skywalker out here bro. There are so many moments where things just don't make sense when you actually think about them. Aside from all that, I just don't like what they do with the characters. Princess Zelda suffers from total character assassination. In BotW she's a researcher at heart, she's a little stubborn and she's always done things her own way. In TotK we see NONE of that. Her only two character traits are wanting to save Hyrule and liking Link.
On the positive side of things, though, I think the twist is fantastically done and easily the best part of the story. Well, fantastically done on paper. The issue with it is that if you pull the master sword before finding all the memories, or if you find all the memories before completing the dungeons, huge parts of the story are straight up just spoiled.
@@sagehanson190 what video did you watch?
@@sagehanson190 I don’t think it massacred her character at all. For one, the reason why Zelda investigated under the castle was specifically because of her love for her research and the desire to rebuild her kingdom. While she’s in the past, she enjoys learning about the culture of the ancient hylians and the zonai people. However, she also realizes how important it is to save her kingdom as the princess, and makes the grand sacrifice of everything she loves to deliver the sword to the hero. It’s the perfect climax to her character growth.
Skyward Sword is my favorite Zelda game its also the first Zelda game I've ever played and yes it has the best story telling in the entire series with the 2nd being the Wind Waker in my opinion.
A fair opinion!
One big problem is that a lot of people just want flashy cutscenes, and they won't listen to the messages these games hide.
Well said! Many Zelda games have good stories!
I especially like the story of Majoras Mask, so thanks for highlighting that. It's nothing like Tears of the Kingdom which has a terrible story and ruins the series. REEEEE 🦀
CRAB TIME
On your last video about this I commented about how I think its frustrating how the "The Lore is bad now" portion of the fanbase acts like the old games have some shakesperian storytelling attached to those games when in reality the stories are incredibly simple and that counts for every Zelda game.
All Zelda games have very simple stories, they are not bad (in fact I'd argue that simple is better than something too complex which is part of the reason I always disliked the timeline split thing since it turned a simple story into something unnecesarily complex) but they are very simple on their nature, the villain always have clear evil reasons to be evil even in cases like Skull Kid where he was being a puppet of Majora but in that game Majora itself was simply evil trying to destroy the world of Termina.
HOWEVER I think the difference between the older games to the newer ones is the presentation of those simple stories, I've seen a lot of people say that BOTW has a better story than TOTK and I largely think this is due to how the story presented certain aspects of the game like the champions and the motivations behind them and Zelda. I do agree that it does a better job, TOTK however picked the criticism behind the BOTW story, mainly the villain and the lack of his presence and swung too hard on the other direction, overly focusing on Ganondorf and making (in my opinion) one of the best presentations of him since Wind Waker (Wind Waker is still much better of course but this is mostly to show how far ago something like this was made) but as a result making the game lack with the presentation of other characters (particularly the sages cause wtf was those cutscenes repeating???) The "present" sages have some good characterization to them (particularly Yunobo considering how they use your expectation of the character to play back with you) but it does not hold a candle to characters like Mipha or Rivaly in the previous game.
The game follows the same simple formula for the story but it waters it down too much making it about the villain and characters like Rauru and Sonia get ZERO time to be shown properly, why have those two only to later add another one of the Zonai to focus on when it would've been easier to combine Mineru and either Sonia or Rauru into a single character? Why go through the work of making a cutscene for every dungeon ending if they will all be the same? I understand the reason was so we could take the dungeons in any order so the exposition had to be similar but giving each sage some sort of specific motivation (The Gerudo one in particular deserved one I played it again a couple of days ago and I kept wondering how it must've been to the Gerudo of the past to detach from Ganondorf and essentially fight against their own tradition) Just adding a few lines about why they decided to follow Zelda with her plan would have been enough to present the story in a better way.
I'm a big fan of TOTK and I don't think its nearly as flawed as some people make it out to be (I saw a video the other day that said the game is terrible and the only reason people like it is their own reasons and motivations to enjoy it and like isn't that how liking ANYTHING works????) But I won't pretend the stories in the older games were bad and this was somehow the first time we as a collective realized it, the stories were all simple but the ones from past games actually TRIED to present them properly and respect the intelligence of the player.
Nintendo is getting so close to perfecting this new formula, they made a simple story but forgot to focus on the villain at their first attempt and on the second they focused ONLY on the bad guy and let the other characters without anything to survive in the story, if they do it one more time and get a balance between the criticism of the two games then a great Zelda game will come from it, but as it stands both of the newer games are flawed in their own areas. The older games are far from flawless (specially in some story/gameplay mixes where it just felt like the games were stalling for time when it was never necessary) but they presented themselves with more respect to the player and pride to themselves and as a result are better seen by the fans.
We have a similar thing in the Doom community, where anybody who had criticisms, however minor or fairly stated, of Doom (2016) or especially Doom Eternal were dismissed with bogus arguments from people who have never played the original games in the series claiming we should not be dissatisfied to see the series morph into something else that's totally different from the original. The arguments always invoke the phrase "Doom was always _____" with the blank being whatever quality of Eternal they really like. Other than this the only thing I have to say is that I loved the story of A Link to the Past. Sure it was surpassed by later entries but it laid all the foundations and to me was super compelling at the time. I feel like it gets not enough credit.
I can't say I am very familiar with the Doom community so it is really interesting to hear about this parallel!
I’m gonna be honest, I barely remember the plot of totk outside of zelda being missing, as opposed to something like even ocarina of time
😭 people think TOTK and BOTW story are bad (they arent the wrost zelda stories)
I mean definitely, that pleasure distinctly belongs to Triforce Heroes
my first zelda game was botw back in 2019 (i was 12 so ive been part of the fandom for nearly 6 years) and i absolutely loved totk. the story is ... questionable but the gameplay is so addicting and fun. i played mm and oot on and off after botw and the stories are incredible. zelda stories have always been basic but with complex themes and hidden lore that makes it so charismatic. im a botw/totk fanboy all the way and imo TP is peak zelda hands down (my order is coming in a week from now). what totk succeeded in was making an insanely fun and creative game, the story fell flat and the atmosphere from botw is watered down - this does not mean it is a bad game, it just lacks in the component. botw was amazing in the world building, the initial exploration of hyrule and the somber tone of an isolated and decayed world (for me at least, botw has one of the greatest stories in all of zelda, it just needed some more fleshing out and interactive elements rather than just memories). ive watched all the game grumps series and read most of the manga, zelda stories are perfection
also as much as i will defend totk for being an amazing game, the story is definetly lame and couldve been something really cool, but i do love how theres an emphasis on this story for speculation, even tho figuring out the ending was pretty easy (i love lore)
I’m a long time Zelda fan and Majora’s mask is my favorite in the series, but I also don’t think that ToTK’s story is that bad??? My favorite part about the switch entires is how they characterize Princess Zelda in Particular, and I feel like ToTK did a better job connecting the players current actions in the present to Zelda’s actions in the past than BOTW but I guess I should make my own video huh 😅
I'd love to watch it if you did!
The beauty of Zelda stories is that they're often told as -obviously- a legend; a folk tale from generation to generation. I think the ambiguity and sometimes uncertainty of the events that go down in the stories, often not very detailed, only work in favour of giving it that myth aura.
For me personally, one of the reasons I really enjoy the Zelda series is because of the stories.
Out of many the video game series I have played with good stories, the Zelda series is still one of my favorites.
Of course, how good a story is in a game will always be subjective.
However, I also do not agree with the idea that the Zelda series has bad stories or even mid-ones. I see this view mostly because people want it to be ultra-complex, and dark, but even with its simple aspects, it's still great. As the video has covered, many moments can be complex still.
I don't mean to come off as a fanboy with this statement, but I hold the opinion that the Zelda series doesn't have a bad story. This even includes Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom.
I don't personally have an issue with the story of both games. I honestly find Breath of the Wild's story to be one of the best in the series. For Tears of the Kingdom, I find the story to be on par with the other games. I also have found that some still really enjoy both games and still like the story.
The argument to excuse Tears of the Kingdom's story to say the Zelda series always had bad stories, is not a good statement.
To many, ones who even enjoy the newer games, the story is important. I find that it comes down to personal opinions mostly, regarding what is it that makes a story good, what it should have, etc.
This is just something I wanted to share about the Zelda series narrative including the newer games. Thank you for reading.
Thank you for the thoughtful comment!
@@NayruYT Thank you so much for your comment. Really good video. It really shows why the stories in the series are good.
"I honestly find Breath of the Wild's story to be one of the best in the series" FINALLY someone said it
@@sophitiaofhyrule Yes, it's that good imo. Very underrated aspect of BOTW. I really like how it's more about the characters, than just about the video.
I was 10 when i first played Link's Awakening and it brought me to tears. I used to talk to Marin in town just so I could stop and listen to The Ballad of the Windfish for a while and feel so many emotions mixed together. It truly was the game that made me a Zelda fan, and I had played every Zelda up to that point at least some. As much as I have played and enjoyed BotW and TotK the stories simply can not compare to the classic games.
I’ve been a Zelda fan since the 90s, and I’d disagree with the notion that TotK has a bad story. I thought the story of BotW was “meh”, but I was enthralled with TotK’s. I did not like the repeated sage cutscenes and had a couple other gripes, but besides that, it was far more impactful than I was anticipating. Most of it is an investigation to solve a mystery and fill in the picture, hence, I disagree that seeing a tear out of order is “spoiling” at all. Detective work is not always linear… you’re piecing together different parts of the story as you discover them, but even then, TotK does have a suggested order if you manage to speak to Impa at the first tear. I understand the format may not be everyone’s cup of tea, but it hit all the sweet spots for me.
TWW & SS are still my top Zelda stories, but TotK is not very far down the list.
i wish i could give you multiple thumbs up right now... i do not want to dismiss a person's way on how they engage with stories, but i never see any discussion about how it's non-linearity adds more to the experience, and i would even say that i felt like Link during these "investigations" in how i was processing the info that i got... i really love how it encourages a player to ponder
Was looking for this! I Adore the storytelling of BotW and AoC, and while I haven’t fully formulated my thoughts on TotK, I never thought it had a bad story.
That's fair! I'm really glad the story did it for you!
Do the Tears even count like the game's story?
They are just noise. Their importance is akin to knowing how to make cheese.
The game story is: Link wakes up, gets powers, follows leads about Zelda's whereabouts, frees four regions and Ganon tries to lure him to the castle posing as Zelda. Link follows and is helped by the people he helped. Finds a fifth sage that has info about the Sacred Stones and Zelda's plan of dragonification. Finally, Link goes and investigates the place where everything started, defeats Ganon and Zelda becomes human again.
Nothing. Absolutely nothing about the tear memories is important for the plot.
Now, as the best way to play ToTK is rushing to the enemy, the "teamwork" theme the story pushed towards falls flat. Link could defeat Ganondorf alone as long as Zelda could do light magic. Just like in BoTW's ending....man, Zelda really loves to skip her light lessons, doesn't she?
@@tarnw3301 hmmm i think i see your point (it is technically optional, after all)
but i also don't think it's fair to discount the importance of the Tears since that's where we'll get the knowledge 8of Zelda's whereabouts and what she has been doing, not to mention how emotional the culmination is... and of course, the retrieval of the Master Sword is also part of it as well, since you technically get its location after you experience all of the Tears
it is important to the plot, but the way it presents its importance works differently compared to the way how other games present their plot... i'm not gonna argue if it's right or wrong, of course: but it's the choice that they have made
i personally respect the way they did it, but i also understand why others do not
Thank you for this video. It's always been maddening to me when people use this argument. Simple stories are not categorically bad, they can still be well written. Just look at Dr. Seuss.
Furthermore, if someone genuinely believes that Zelda stories have always been bad, then the fact that people who've loved those stories are disappointed by TotK's story should be *really* telling of its quality.
A good point!