@@mcninja6592 glad to know I wasn't the only one who was hit wrong when he mentioned Sonic Origins rather than the mobile version, of which the Origins version is a port of
Ever since origins released people like to ignore big ports of sonic 1 & 2, CD is the exception. Kinda makes me wish they never made origins in the first place.
I was the artist who created Hidden Palace Zone and Oil Ocean Zone. I don't know if anyone was as excited as I was to have HPZ finally included in an official release of Sonic!! Yasushi Yamaguchi was the lead enviroment artist on Sonic 2. He was a machine (and pretty much lived at the office) and very critical of his own work. He must have completely reworked Chemical Plant Zone at least three times, when to my eye, his first version was beautiful! I have vague memories of playing the game with the kick-back, and yeah, it was not fun. There are always lots of things that sound like fun on paper, but suck when you actually are able to implement them!!
Nice one! Oil Ocean Zone was my favourite as a kid due to the vibrant colours, cool elevators, slippery slopes and overall very different feel it has to the rest of the zones! The sound the that the oil burners/exhausts made when they shot you up in the air is still living rent free in my head.
Fun fact, Sonic 2 was developed in only 9 months. The game had almost 50 bug testers. That's more than twice the size of most dev teams that worked on any Sonic game. Despite this, Sonic 2 wasn't a fully playable game till two days before completion.
@@IamJay02 someone made a case that limiting release window made sure devs don't get any ideas and stick to making original game work. It also helped they reused 1st Sonic as a base.
@@Sauceyjames You only had 30 seconds and nothing in the prototype alludes to the Spin Dash. Plus, it was the first time the Spin Dash was ever in anything.
These sorts of things are pretty common in the high stakes console world, where very tight release schedules sometimes limit what can be included in a game. Some ideas have to be abandoned because there simply isn't enough time to implement them. No doubt Sega programmers were feeling the heat as the release date for Sonic 2 was approaching and they still have to debug, play test and manufacture the cartridges. Better to release a solid smaller game than a larger buggy game, especially in an age where ROM updates were not possible and the internet didn't exist yet.
Ur factually wrong Internet did exist but it wasn't accessible to the world only for business and corporations to develop it to create the web & OSes thanks to Terminal Internet was just a binary code program until 1983 then became terminal wth graphics until early 90s then further developped to create web and networks until late 90s for the web and internet to rise in the early 2000s .
@@iwanttocomplain I've never owned a Genesis (I was a SNES nerd) but I imagine the original intention for the game was way too ambitious for the amount of time they had to develop it, so they had to eventually cut out whole areas and even levels to get it out in time. That's one thing that's great about the modern homebrew scene: They are not hampered by release dates or any time pressures. They can take their time and get it exactly the way they want before releasing it. Some of these homebrews have been 3 or more years in the making.
@@JustWasted3HoursHere it's a shame STI never got to be a proper studio under Kalinski or more accurately Mark Cerny. Comix Zone and The Ooze show they have talent but just not quite finished. Those games are so creative and inventive but only 90% finished which I find disappointing as in those two games, STI found it's voice. It was Kalinski and Cerny's job to do everything wrong at all times and come up with garbage that is Sonic 2. All you have to do is press down+a then let go straight away and just make your way through the boring game like that just looking at him roll along. I was playing S2 last night finding bugs and being utterly depressed remembering the crushing disappointment this game was by adding nothing new and just rolling back the design idea of combined momentum for the reward f seeing what you did. Not any more. Now he spins on a different axis, visually...! But of course if you slow down he just drops off it. That adds nothing but takes something away instead. Less control now. He needs to be in the right place, at the right time, standing still, 0mph, to make the game like you. OK now watch the screen move for a bit. It's only a minutes, trust.
Bumping into the wall was likely made specifically for the Nick Arcade version, because I don't see anyone at Sega during this period thinking that was a good idea for the final game. They were on a time limit and whatnot, so anything to make it more difficult to get X amount of rings
@pojr , Probably because if the animation is more smoother ,it has more frames and thus more storage , they probably redid it to save space in the cartridge.
@@pojr My guess is that it had to do with responsiveness/framerate issues - dropping frames from an animation makes it feel snappier, because our brains fill in the missing "info" anyway. Even if the movement doesn't change whatsoever, that perception makes Sonic feel like he's reacting to the input quicker.
They did not need to add it if it hindered performance either since Sonic 1 did not have that many walking frames anyways. I would have liked to see them, but it was probably the smartest decision to make
Imagine that in an alternative universe, you’re doing a speed-run for sonic 2 and everything is going great, you didn’t die, you’re minutes away from beating the world record but Sega kept the wall bump mechanics, and then you crash into a wall in metropolis and now you fucked up the run
In the Nick Arcade prototype, the reason why you get pink-screened at Final Zone was because, going further will trigger the Egg Crusher boss fight, however since the Egg Crusher's data was stripped from the game, and since the game couldn't find it, this will cause a runtime error and crash the game. Also, correction about Hidden Palace Zone. Hidden Palace Zone was first officially introduced in the 2013 mobile remaster by Christian Whitehead. This was accessed by falling down a pit that takes you there which originally was an inescapable pit of spikes in the original Sega Genesis game. Sonic Origins's source code for Sonic 2 came from the 2013 remaster game, just like Sonic 1, and Sonic CD which received a 2011 remaster. The idea of visiting the Hidden Palace Zone for the Chaos Emeralds was revisited in Sonic 3 and Knuckles, where once you have both cartridges together, you can access the Hidden Palace Zone via super rings in order to get the Super Emeralds to become Hyper Sonic.
So at some point they probably realized that the best solution for Tails was just to make him immortal, and because of that they had to remove him from the final battle so people wouldn't abuse it.
6:36 The reason why the game crashes in Final Zone is because when you try to progress, the game will try to access the Sonic 1 Final Zone data which is not there.
8:56 Slight correction: Actually, you can skip half of the level and go to the hidden area in Chemical Plant Zone Act 2 on the left. That way, it’s completable.
I wish Wood Zone had made it into the final game. I'm glad they restored Hidden Palace in Origins. The desert stage got reused in Mania so there's that. Funny how a couple of the prototype zone names got reused later like Neo Green Hill in Sonic Advance and Dust Hill in Sonic Lost World.
They didn't restore it in Origins They restored it in the Sonic 2 Mobile remake that came out over a decade ago Sonic Origins is just a port of that remake
Coming across the original Sonic 2 Beta online in the early 2000s was something else, so many levels were cut from the final that were present in that beta version that it was just mind blowing at the time. I don't think any other prototype has had the same impact that one had in the early days of the internet.
I remember seeing the prototype title screen on a holographic trading card back in the 90's, I didn't think much of it, I assumed it was new/alternate art made for the cards. 10:36 - ...I've NEVER heard anyone call it "Metro Pollus" Zone
how sure are we in using the term of a ‘rom hack’ as a development process? I would find it very odd that it would be rom hack if sega has all access to sonic 1 source code. It isn’t uncommon for game developers to build sequels using the prior game’s finished project as a starting point, and I would never consider that kind of development process as a rom hack.
Did you try the debug code when you played it? I’m curious whether or not that was available in those prototypes considering the level select was. And did you use the 19,65,09,17 level select or was there a different way to access it?
The level select code in both prototypes are the same, but you put in a button combination on the title screen. You don't have to use the sound test. Debug mode is in both prototypes as well, but I didn't use them.
I remember these prototypes.. It was fun just to mess around with them and we eventually got several rom hacks based on them. Eventually some of said Rom Hackers made their own studio and were licensed by Sega to make official ports of Sonic 1 & 2 to Phones as well as CD to basically all systems, in the Sonic 2 remake Hidden Palace was a hidden zone you could access via the death pit in Mystic Cave Act 2. Then Sonic Mania came to exist. Funny how Sega actually joined forces with rom hackers to make better games, instead of whatever Nintendo is doing.
@@tchomsdaguy For some yes, but I can def say that is not the case with games like Pokemon where they strike many fangames and rom hacks and produce garbage in comparison to some of those games. I am more talking in terms of how nintendo doesnt have respect for the very fans of franchises they enjoy.
Funnily enough, the "knockback" feature was implemented into a Sonic game many years later: The Wii/PS2 version of Sonic Unleashed. I think it works better in a game like that one, mostly because A) It punishes you for running and boosting mindlessly into walls, and B) It's hilarious when Sonic boosts into a wall and falls like a cartoon character.
Hiden palace is not only in Sonic Origins, it was also included in mobile port, in the death pit there is no longer spikes, the pit extends and player falls in Hiden Palace Zone
For anyone thinking the knock-back mechanic wouldn't be bad in the final version... Just think about going through all those loops on Chemical Plant for example, which are MEANT to go through fast, and then all of a sudden knock-back mechanic here and there slows you down. That would've been TERRIBLE for the oficial release.
Imagine being one of those kids, telling all their friends at school that the new sonic is going to have knock back every time you bump into a wall and then it not coming true
I have a question: In sonic 2, if you go to options and sound test, if you play the track number 10, it plays a song thats not in the game. From what build/missing stage is that song?
Hidden Palace appeared in the moblie games in 2011, and you can go to Proto Palace which is the unfinshed product of Hidden Palace. You can go down the death pit in mystic cave to be lead to Hidden Palace. Also liked the video.
Does the Saimon Wai build end after chemical plant ? I can swear i played something similar as a kid , a 4 games in one cartridge and i was so confused why it kept ending after chemical plant , i once start mashing random buttons on the title screen and got the level select screen i went to mystic cave zone only to be blocked off i kept trying until the time ran out. i honesly have no idea how i got this or how i entered the level select as a kid but it stayed in my head all this time.
No, after clicking start on Title Screen you start from Aquatic Ruin Zone, then Chemical Plant Zone, then Hill Top Zone, then Emerald Hill Zone and return to Title Screen
Origins and the mobile both have Hidden Palace and they're both a secret level while the other picture you showed i believe was in mania as Mirage Saloon Zone. Or at least look like it
I'm sorry. I was a kid who played all the genesis-era Sonic games as they were released and the notion that 2 is the best is just baffling to me. S3K is by far the superior game IMO.
Hidden Palace was actually added to more future ports like mobile and origins. And Sand Shower was scrapped but then came back as Mirage Saloon in Sonic Mania. It is also confirmed that Mirage Saloon is on West Side Island because you get launched into Oil Ocean by one of those gun launchers. Good to know that they didn’t completely get rid of these zones!
Only Genesis game I can recall that has the character getting flung away by the recoil of running into a wall was Desert Demolition, and only as the Coyote, who also banged his head against low ceilings, was tossed around by spikes and pancaked on taking fall damage. Meanwhile the playable Road Runner was immune to petty mishaps for obvious reasons.
Pet peeve: they should not be called “prototypes”. They should be referred to as “builds”. Regarding the image in the manual: Sega was aiming for a worldwide release on November 11, 1993. Therefore, the packaging and manual would have to be done mid development with whatever assets the devs had on hand so there would be enough time to print the millions of copies required.
Would have been cool to mention that hidden palace is actually accessible in the final game using game genie codes. However, most of it's data was removed. So when the level starts, you get the actual music and title card for the level as Sonic spawns into a glitchy corrupted mess as he falls to his death.
The missing title screen in the manual became the title game for Sonic 2 on the Game Gear, though they flipped Sonic and Tails, and had Sonic show two fingers instead of a thumbs up.
Fun fact: if you go into the sonic 2 mobile port, go into mystic cave zone (act 2), one of the pits before the boss brings u to hidden palace zone I found it out myself cuz i sucked
You need to understand the point of prototypes. Its unlikely that such a feature would of remained after negative feedback. Game devs go through many many builds or prototypes, testing and tossing ideas until its finally decided what stays and what doesnt
Before the launch of Sonic 2, an issue of a games magazine in the UK had a VHS that had some Sonic 2 footage of one of these earlier versions. Not sure which version exactly, but it did have some visible differences from the released version such as the older title screen. I think some of the stage names might have been different too, but I might be misremembering after all these years. Off the top of my head, it had some footage from Emerald Hill Zone, Chemical Plant and Hilltop Zone. I think the games magazine was called Mean Machines.
Knock-back could be nice actually if the effect still allows you to control Sonic => imagine a reduced bounce and that you can still do some things, so you could use the bounce speed to your advantage, like run the other direction without starting from speed 0.
Is the debug mode available in the early prototypes? If so, it may be interesting to explore the levels that end up blocking you from progressing further.
I remember watching a Nickelodeon show where kids were playing Sonic the Hedgehog, it might be the same one you referenced, I'm not sure, but I wish my memory wasn't fuzzy on the details, because I vaguely remember a lot of enemies they had to get through, some that were enemies from a later stage on the first level, and it felt like it was specific for the game show itself. I played the prototype just to see if it might have been the one, but none of it sparks my memory. It might not have been Sonic 2, maybe it was Sonic 1. I don't recall. Heck, for all I know, none of it happened and what I saw was from a dream.
Original level Order from concept arts: Present Time: Green Hill Zone (Early Emerald Hill Zone) Ocean Wind Zone (Cut Zone) Woods Zone (Early Wood Zone) (Cut Zone) Sand Shower Zone (Desert Zone from magazines) (Cut Zone) Metropolis Zone Warp Point (Cutscene) Ancient Time: Tropical Plant/Tropical Sun Zone (Cut Zone) Hill Top Zone Blue Lake/Blue Ocean Zone (Cut Zone) Olimpus (Early Hidden Palace Zone) (Cut Zone) (Secret Zone) Rock World Zone (Cut Zone) (Winter version of Sand Shower Zone) Warp Point? (I don't know) (Cutscene) Ruined Present Time: Rock World Zone (Again,maybe a ruined version?) Oil Ocean Zone Dust Hill Zone (Early Mystic Cave Zone) Olimpus (Cutscene Version) Death Egg Zone Ancient Time After Big Tsunami: Hill Top Zone (Again) Blue Lake/Blue Ocean Zone (Again) Tropical Summer Zone (Cut Zone) Olimpus (Cutscene Version) Future Time: Casino Night Zone Chemical Plant Zone Genocide City/Cyber City Zone (Cut Zone) Olimpus? (Cutscene Version) Return To Ancient Time: Fire Mountain/Volcano Zone (Cut Zone) (Later replaced by Neo Green Hill Zone) Neo Death Egg Zone (Cut Zone) Note:Sonic The Hedgehog 2 was supposed to have time travel
Rock World Zone may have been a transition zone to the present, hence why the maps show it in two places. Olympus wasn't a zone. It may have evolved into Hidden Palace Zone based on its placement, however.
Corrections The reason there's two rock worlds in past and ruined present concept arts is because the past was the 1st plan before being moved to the ruined present. Also the tsunami thing was cut before the time travel was cut so it would be blue ocean then hill top before chemical plant That would mean in the ancient time it would just be tropical plant before going to the ruined present. Also tropical summer is an earlier name and they're the same zone Olympus would come after dust hill to travel into the ancient time again because metropolis aka the warp point was ruined. How the Olympus do that is because it's referenced as the 2nd warp point. It would appear I believe on the same spot as the ancient time concept art
@@Qwertyexists nah the Hydrocity debate is different because both are valid ways to say it. Hydro-city (water city) or Hydrocity (Velocity). METROPOLIS is a form of city, but METRO-POLIS ISN’T A THING.
I find it a bit interesting how Dimps decided to brink back the "thump against walls" mechanic for the Wii/PS2 version of Unleashed I suppose it does make a bit more sense in that game, since each use of the segmented boost bar is something you have to commit to - and by extension, get punished for if you use it poorly
5:17 Hidden Palace is on the mobile version of Sonic the hedgehog 2 just with a level select code and it's entirely different since we have no buttons to Press
The prototype's title screen is different because it is based off the Sonic 2 title screen for the Master System/Game Gear version, which actually came out before the genesis version. Surprised that was not brought up in Cybershell's video too.
I remember the Simon Wai beta well. 20 years ago when I started to go to Internet cafes because we didn't yet had fast Internet at home, I looked up ROM sides because very young me didn't know better at the time that this was actually illegal stuff. Anyhow, finding any ROMs was rather difficult and I wanted to play Sonic 2 badly on my PC. This beta was the only Sonic 2 ROM I could find for the longest time. It bored me rather quickly back then too but these days, I can quite appreciate beta ROMs and find enjoyment in them.
What I want to know is why they didnt even attempt to implement Tails' flight when hes playable in ANY version of Sonic 2 prior to the Taxman rerelease and on. Theres no point to playing as him in the original release outside of novelty: he plays EXACTLY the same as Sonic. Out of all the behind the scenes stuff dug up for Sonic 2, none of the original dev team have given any explanation for this.
The picture with the cactus and sand and everything else at 11:47 that was actually sand showers’s picture and that zone has made it’s way to sonic mania
I remember watching a YT video that details the wall bouncing. When I played one of the prototypes, I hated it. I'm glad it wasn't in the final release
More specifically, it tries to load the PLC's (Pattern load cues; essentially lists of art to be loaded in VRAM) for the boss, but in the prototype, they're overwritten by garbage data, which causes this crash. Even if you were to correct this tho, there's another problem: The code for the Final zone boss no longer exists (it just points to ObjectNull, like every other empty object slot)
the music in sonic 2 is based on music composed by masato nakamura, you can hear the pre console music called "masa's demos" they are slower in tempo for unknown reasons, the game versions have more changes from the pre console versions the early build music from simon wai sounds closer to the original demos
Emerald hill zone, chemical plant and hilltop zone might be the oldest maps in the game and oil ocean and airship might be the newest with casino night in the middle
Some parts of the level art for Hidden Palace Zone got re-used in a stage of Sonic Spinball, I'm pretty sure. So it at least didn't *completely* go to waste.
The knockback mechanic would've been terrible, but implementing something similar for when you get stuck in a wall would've been better than just calling it "one of Dr. Robotnik's diabolical traps" in the manual.
Honestly, the knockback mechanic, if toned down, limited to when not spinning, and canceled when running into something pushable, would have been potentially fun, adding just a little bit more of a challenge to speedruns.
Die hard Sonic fans have played all of the cut zones, as well as Hidden Palace Zone before the Christian Whitehead Remaster on Mobile, which did feature Hidden Palace Zone (if you fell in the spike pit in Mystic Cave). Sonic 2 Long Version was a ROM Hack that had Wood Zone, Genocide City zone, Dust hill zone, and Hidden Palace Zone, although it wasn't the most polished versions, but playable.
I remember being in KayBee toys in the early 90s and playing a Sonic game. I think it was 1. and the idle animation, when you don't hit anything and Sonic gets impatient, he actually gets outy a yo-yo and starts playing with it. I never saw him do that in any other release of Sonic 1.
Someone needs to make a sonic origins mod where the original vision of hidden palace zone was put in, with you being sent there after getting all chaos emeralds
I like the knockback mechanicm because it keeps the game moving, which makes it more fun and alive. Stopping at a wall takes the speed out of the game., it is always such a fun buster
That knock-back mechanic would have ruined the game. Cool to see a feature that was explored, tested, and cut for the right reasons.
no it wouldn't have ruined it at all.
pizza tower has that too and the game is perfectly fine with it included.
@Boomrainbownuke9608 just because one game does it well doesn't mean that it wouldn't ruin another game
@@Boomrainbownuke9608yeah, this is kinda a based take
People would find other ways to avoid it. Just like in Sonic Unwiished.
@@theoneandonly-qs1uwyeah, this is kinda a based take
11:49 Slight correction: This stage remake originated from the 2013 Mobile version of Sonic 2, which is what versions Origins is using.
i was kinda annoyed when he said that
@@mcninja6592 Same
he needs to do better with his research, otherwise imma unsub
@@mcninja6592real
@@mcninja6592 glad to know I wasn't the only one who was hit wrong when he mentioned Sonic Origins rather than the mobile version, of which the Origins version is a port of
"Finally though Hidden Palace was Included in Sonic Origins!"
Sonic 2 Mobile Port : *am i a joke to you?*
Sonic Origins is pretty much the mobile ports made by Taxmann, so it's kinda giving it credit?
Ever since origins released people like to ignore big ports of sonic 1 & 2, CD is the exception. Kinda makes me wish they never made origins in the first place.
Lol true. I would have mentioned that.
@@bingobo2551 the mobile versions are riddled with ads. Better to direct people to Origins.
@@suroguner your saying this as if you can’t pay $2. And before you say but you can’t pair a controller you can it’s an option.
I was the artist who created Hidden Palace Zone and Oil Ocean Zone. I don't know if anyone was as excited as I was to have HPZ finally included in an official release of Sonic!!
Yasushi Yamaguchi was the lead enviroment artist on Sonic 2. He was a machine (and pretty much lived at the office) and very critical of his own work. He must have completely reworked Chemical Plant Zone at least three times, when to my eye, his first version was beautiful!
I have vague memories of playing the game with the kick-back, and yeah, it was not fun. There are always lots of things that sound like fun on paper, but suck when you actually are able to implement them!!
Thank you for your work and your recollection! Do you recall how late in development Hidden Palace Zone was cut from Sonic 2?
Nice one! Oil Ocean Zone was my favourite as a kid due to the vibrant colours, cool elevators, slippery slopes and overall very different feel it has to the rest of the zones! The sound the that the oil burners/exhausts made when they shot you up in the air is still living rent free in my head.
Wow it's an honor to get to discuss the development of Sonic2 over the internet with you sir ! Best of wishes
Crazy, you formed my childhood
Thanks, without you guys I don't think this franchise would be nearly as good!
Fun fact, Sonic 2 was developed in only 9 months. The game had almost 50 bug testers. That's more than twice the size of most dev teams that worked on any Sonic game. Despite this, Sonic 2 wasn't a fully playable game till two days before completion.
Imagine that. One of the best games ever made was created in 9 fuckin months. I commend the dev team.
@@IamJay02 someone made a case that limiting release window made sure devs don't get any ideas and stick to making original game work. It also helped they reused 1st Sonic as a base.
I was always screaming at those kids on Nick's Arcade that they are playing the games wrong!
Blud didn't know that spin dash existed
@@MotivatedSharkieThe game wasn't even out yet at the time
@@SonicTheCutehogno excuse, I would have found out
@@Sauceyjames You only had 30 seconds and nothing in the prototype alludes to the Spin Dash. Plus, it was the first time the Spin Dash was ever in anything.
The rumor was that they purposely only chose kids who didn't play video games to be on the show so they could be stingy with prizes.
the hidden palace zone actually made it into the sonic 2 remake for mobile.
Nice. Shame Sonic 3 Remake never happened (not a fan of Sonic Origins 🤢).
Yup, I heard it was rebuilt with a new layout right?
Came here to mention this - the mobile version of Sonic 2 from 2013 is the first official version with hidden palace
bro thinks he's a genius
@@some_body_else3636 did he say he’s a genius..?
I remember helping to contribute to the Nick Arcade Sonic 2 purchase. Best $300 I ever spent, ngl
You did?
@@LocalAitch cool
Big ups to you, LocalH! I’ve browsed the Simon Wai Beta Forums and Sonic Retro over the years and knew I recognized your name. Big thanks!!
Debug mode, man! Use debug mode!
Yea I'm saying that as well lol
Maybe back then debug mode didnt even exist?
@@Amakqait did
I know everyone Sonic fan knows debug mode or at least heard about it….it was kinda frustrating he didn’t use debug mode ☹️☹️
EXACTLY MY THOUGHTS
These sorts of things are pretty common in the high stakes console world, where very tight release schedules sometimes limit what can be included in a game. Some ideas have to be abandoned because there simply isn't enough time to implement them. No doubt Sega programmers were feeling the heat as the release date for Sonic 2 was approaching and they still have to debug, play test and manufacture the cartridges. Better to release a solid smaller game than a larger buggy game, especially in an age where ROM updates were not possible and the internet didn't exist yet.
Ur factually wrong Internet did exist but it wasn't accessible to the world only for business and corporations to develop it to create the web & OSes thanks to Terminal
Internet was just a binary code program until 1983 then became terminal wth graphics until early 90s then further developped to create web and networks until late 90s for the web and internet to rise in the early 2000s .
@@Darkparadox64 Not very useful to the average gamer if they can't access it, right chief?
This game is criminally short.
@@iwanttocomplain I've never owned a Genesis (I was a SNES nerd) but I imagine the original intention for the game was way too ambitious for the amount of time they had to develop it, so they had to eventually cut out whole areas and even levels to get it out in time. That's one thing that's great about the modern homebrew scene: They are not hampered by release dates or any time pressures. They can take their time and get it exactly the way they want before releasing it. Some of these homebrews have been 3 or more years in the making.
@@JustWasted3HoursHere it's a shame STI never got to be a proper studio under Kalinski or more accurately Mark Cerny. Comix Zone and The Ooze show they have talent but just not quite finished. Those games are so creative and inventive but only 90% finished which I find disappointing as in those two games, STI found it's voice.
It was Kalinski and Cerny's job to do everything wrong at all times and come up with garbage that is Sonic 2.
All you have to do is press down+a then let go straight away and just make your way through the boring game like that just looking at him roll along.
I was playing S2 last night finding bugs and being utterly depressed remembering the crushing disappointment this game was by adding nothing new and just rolling back the design idea of combined momentum for the reward f seeing what you did.
Not any more. Now he spins on a different axis, visually...! But of course if you slow down he just drops off it. That adds nothing but takes something away instead.
Less control now. He needs to be in the right place, at the right time, standing still, 0mph, to make the game like you.
OK now watch the screen move for a bit. It's only a minutes, trust.
Bumping into the wall was likely made specifically for the Nick Arcade version, because I don't see anyone at Sega during this period thinking that was a good idea for the final game. They were on a time limit and whatnot, so anything to make it more difficult to get X amount of rings
Good point. They might have done it to make the challenge harder.
Prototype Sonic 2 looks so cute and adorable.
sad boi
The sprite does look well animated. I wonder why they redid it.
@@pojrIt looks very weird and non expressive
@pojr , Probably because if the animation is more smoother ,it has more frames and thus more storage , they probably redid it to save space in the cartridge.
And it mainly is a SLIGHT recolor of Sonic 1’s sprite
very suprising that the sonic 2 prototype running sprites were actually way smoother than the ones we got
Yeah, the walking animation has more frames. I wonder why they changed it.
@@pojr My guess is that it had to do with responsiveness/framerate issues - dropping frames from an animation makes it feel snappier, because our brains fill in the missing "info" anyway. Even if the movement doesn't change whatsoever, that perception makes Sonic feel like he's reacting to the input quicker.
They did not need to add it if it hindered performance either since Sonic 1 did not have that many walking frames anyways. I would have liked to see them, but it was probably the smartest decision to make
You have is cord, krispeydude?
Hardware
Imagine that in an alternative universe, you’re doing a speed-run for sonic 2 and everything is going great, you didn’t die, you’re minutes away from beating the world record but Sega kept the wall bump mechanics, and then you crash into a wall in metropolis and now you fucked up the run
In the Nick Arcade prototype, the reason why you get pink-screened at Final Zone was because, going further will trigger the Egg Crusher boss fight, however since the Egg Crusher's data was stripped from the game, and since the game couldn't find it, this will cause a runtime error and crash the game. Also, correction about Hidden Palace Zone. Hidden Palace Zone was first officially introduced in the 2013 mobile remaster by Christian Whitehead. This was accessed by falling down a pit that takes you there which originally was an inescapable pit of spikes in the original Sega Genesis game. Sonic Origins's source code for Sonic 2 came from the 2013 remaster game, just like Sonic 1, and Sonic CD which received a 2011 remaster. The idea of visiting the Hidden Palace Zone for the Chaos Emeralds was revisited in Sonic 3 and Knuckles, where once you have both cartridges together, you can access the Hidden Palace Zone via super rings in order to get the Super Emeralds to become Hyper Sonic.
Not gonna lie, I kinda wish Sonic still had that cool sliding-stop animation from 8:50 . Looks so much better than the final version.
At least the first half of the animation made it into Mania
i like it too
It _is_ in the game... for 1/60th of a second. I forget who it was, but there's a video someone made about it a few years ago.
So at some point they probably realized that the best solution for Tails was just to make him immortal, and because of that they had to remove him from the final battle so people wouldn't abuse it.
Man, I haven't seen Nick Arcade in close to 30 years. What a blast of nostalgia
This show used to come on way in the morning time like 5 or 6 not sure. I haven't watched this show maybe around the same time you haven't.
6:36 The reason why the game crashes in Final Zone is because when you try to progress, the game will try to access the Sonic 1 Final Zone data which is not there.
8:56 Slight correction: Actually, you can skip half of the level and go to the hidden area in Chemical Plant Zone Act 2 on the left. That way, it’s completable.
I wish Wood Zone had made it into the final game. I'm glad they restored Hidden Palace in Origins. The desert stage got reused in Mania so there's that. Funny how a couple of the prototype zone names got reused later like Neo Green Hill in Sonic Advance and Dust Hill in Sonic Lost World.
They didn't restore it in Origins
They restored it in the Sonic 2 Mobile remake that came out over a decade ago
Sonic Origins is just a port of that remake
Neo green hill was also used in sonic pocket adventure
I do wonder how the final product of Wood Zone would have looked. I didn't love the art style of it, but maybe it would have been done.
Coming across the original Sonic 2 Beta online in the early 2000s was something else, so many levels were cut from the final that were present in that beta version that it was just mind blowing at the time. I don't think any other prototype has had the same impact that one had in the early days of the internet.
I remember seeing the prototype title screen on a holographic trading card back in the 90's, I didn't think much of it, I assumed it was new/alternate art made for the cards.
10:36 - ...I've NEVER heard anyone call it "Metro Pollus" Zone
He is a troll.
Metro Trollus Zone
That's like calling Hydrocity Zone "Hydro City" 💀
It's "HyDRAWcity"
@@AverageOvergunnerYTIt's also like calling Studiopolis Zone "Studio-opolis"
how sure are we in using the term of a ‘rom hack’ as a development process? I would find it very odd that it would be rom hack if sega has all access to sonic 1 source code. It isn’t uncommon for game developers to build sequels using the prior game’s finished project as a starting point, and I would never consider that kind of development process as a rom hack.
I think I remember hearing that Mirage Saloon Zone in Sonic Mania was inspired by the scrapped Sand Shower Zone from the Sonic 2 prototypes
Really cool that they found a way to bring back an old zone in a new way.
Not really, it was inspired by a cut dessert level from sonic cd
@@anaseljaaran2598Which itself was based on Sand Shower.
Did you try the debug code when you played it? I’m curious whether or not that was available in those prototypes considering the level select was. And did you use the 19,65,09,17 level select or was there a different way to access it?
The level select code in both prototypes are the same, but you put in a button combination on the title screen. You don't have to use the sound test. Debug mode is in both prototypes as well, but I didn't use them.
Having something that kicks you back wouldn't be too bad, just not every wall.
Oh wait, springs
I remember these prototypes.. It was fun just to mess around with them and we eventually got several rom hacks based on them. Eventually some of said Rom Hackers made their own studio and were licensed by Sega to make official ports of Sonic 1 & 2 to Phones as well as CD to basically all systems, in the Sonic 2 remake Hidden Palace was a hidden zone you could access via the death pit in Mystic Cave Act 2. Then Sonic Mania came to exist. Funny how Sega actually joined forces with rom hackers to make better games, instead of whatever Nintendo is doing.
Bruh what nintendo is doing is bringing almost 10/10 games without ppl contracted
@@tchomsdaguy For some yes, but I can def say that is not the case with games like Pokemon where they strike many fangames and rom hacks and produce garbage in comparison to some of those games. I am more talking in terms of how nintendo doesnt have respect for the very fans of franchises they enjoy.
Funnily enough, the "knockback" feature was implemented into a Sonic game many years later: The Wii/PS2 version of Sonic Unleashed. I think it works better in a game like that one, mostly because A) It punishes you for running and boosting mindlessly into walls, and B) It's hilarious when Sonic boosts into a wall and falls like a cartoon character.
cool
it also works as a punishment due to the segmented boost bar making you commit to each usage of the boost
Challenge - Collect 25 Rings.
Challenger - Actively avoids all the rings.
Ikr like I was wondering if it was even possible (at least within the allotted time).
2:16 they could be found in sonic mania I guess ?
“Nick Arcade” | “Simon Wai”
Truly the Sonic 2 prototype names of all time.!.!
TBF, Simon Wai is the name of the guy who found it back in 1997
Hiden palace is not only in Sonic Origins, it was also included in mobile port, in the death pit there is no longer spikes, the pit extends and player falls in Hiden Palace Zone
11:40 GENOCIDE CITY?
For anyone thinking the knock-back mechanic wouldn't be bad in the final version... Just think about going through all those loops on Chemical Plant for example, which are MEANT to go through fast, and then all of a sudden knock-back mechanic here and there slows you down. That would've been TERRIBLE for the oficial release.
Imagine being one of those kids, telling all their friends at school that the new sonic is going to have knock back every time you bump into a wall and then it not coming true
1:07 I would've loved to play that snow stage
That's ice cap
@Andre15003 Thanks, I was so bad as a kid i never reached that stage LOL
@@JesusitoXD carnival night was a hell of a stage before ice cap
I have a question: In sonic 2, if you go to options and sound test, if you play the track number 10, it plays a song thats not in the game. From what build/missing stage is that song?
"That red enemy" I'm going to declare a mecha Bulbax.
What’s ironic is that getting 25 rings in sonic 2 is very flipping easy in the final game
9:00 Sonic 2 introduced a path swapping system, this one is missing a path swap object right in front of it.
Interesting. They had loops in Sonic 1, but the loops in Sonic 2 were definitely more complex.
@@pojr you can complete that stage by taking the alternate/secret path
Hidden Palace appeared in the moblie games in 2011, and you can go to Proto Palace which is the unfinshed product of Hidden Palace. You can go down the death pit in mystic cave to be lead to Hidden Palace.
Also liked the video.
Does the Saimon Wai build end after chemical plant ?
I can swear i played something similar as a kid , a 4 games in one cartridge and i was so confused why it kept ending after chemical plant , i once start mashing random buttons on the title screen and got the level select screen i went to mystic cave zone only to be blocked off i kept trying until the time ran out. i honesly have no idea how i got this or how i entered the level select as a kid but it stayed in my head all this time.
Yeah this build was apparently a pretty big target for bootleggers
No, after clicking start on Title Screen you start from Aquatic Ruin Zone, then Chemical Plant Zone, then Hill Top Zone, then Emerald Hill Zone and return to Title Screen
Interestingly, one of the switches in Simon wai oil ocean actually appears on a screenshot on the back of the US box.
Origins and the mobile both have Hidden Palace and they're both a secret level while the other picture you showed i believe was in mania as Mirage Saloon Zone. Or at least look like it
Great video but that clickbait title should be illegal
It’s not really a click bait,it actually has sonic getting knocked back then it got removed
I'm sorry. I was a kid who played all the genesis-era Sonic games as they were released and the notion that 2 is the best is just baffling to me. S3K is by far the superior game IMO.
Hidden Palace was actually added to more future ports like mobile and origins. And Sand Shower was scrapped but then came back as Mirage Saloon in Sonic Mania. It is also confirmed that Mirage Saloon is on West Side Island because you get launched into Oil Ocean by one of those gun launchers. Good to know that they didn’t completely get rid of these zones!
Only Genesis game I can recall that has the character getting flung away by the recoil of running into a wall was Desert Demolition, and only as the Coyote, who also banged his head against low ceilings, was tossed around by spikes and pancaked on taking fall damage. Meanwhile the playable Road Runner was immune to petty mishaps for obvious reasons.
Pet peeve: they should not be called “prototypes”. They should be referred to as “builds”.
Regarding the image in the manual: Sega was aiming for a worldwide release on November 11, 1993. Therefore, the packaging and manual would have to be done mid development with whatever assets the devs had on hand so there would be enough time to print the millions of copies required.
this guy couldnt even turn debug mode on to progress further in some levels
Would have been cool to mention that hidden palace is actually accessible in the final game using game genie codes. However, most of it's data was removed. So when the level starts, you get the actual music and title card for the level as Sonic spawns into a glitchy corrupted mess as he falls to his death.
1:03, I really like the backdrop for Labyrinth Zone.
The missing title screen in the manual became the title game for Sonic 2 on the Game Gear, though they flipped Sonic and Tails, and had Sonic show two fingers instead of a thumbs up.
Fun fact: if you go into the sonic 2 mobile port, go into mystic cave zone (act 2), one of the pits before the boss brings u to hidden palace zone
I found it out myself cuz i sucked
use debug mode to get past the dead ends
Most of them have little or nothing after the cutoff point.
I purposely didn't use debug mode because I thought it would be fun to see how far I could make it in a normal playthrough.
You need to understand the point of prototypes. Its unlikely that such a feature would of remained after negative feedback.
Game devs go through many many builds or prototypes, testing and tossing ideas until its finally decided what stays and what doesnt
1:31 wait tails actually looks like the master system sprite I have a feeling the took some inspiration from the 8bit version that came out first
Before the launch of Sonic 2, an issue of a games magazine in the UK had a VHS that had some Sonic 2 footage of one of these earlier versions. Not sure which version exactly, but it did have some visible differences from the released version such as the older title screen. I think some of the stage names might have been different too, but I might be misremembering after all these years.
Off the top of my head, it had some footage from Emerald Hill Zone, Chemical Plant and Hilltop Zone.
I think the games magazine was called Mean Machines.
4:08 JEEZ THATS BUGGY, WHAT HAPPENED TO THE LETTERS?💀
7:03 AGAIN?!
I would like to listen to the full version of your outro music. Can you tell me the title?:)
It's from Pac-Man arrangement, level 1.
Knock-back could be nice actually if the effect still allows you to control Sonic => imagine a reduced bounce and that you can still do some things, so you could use the bounce speed to your advantage, like run the other direction without starting from speed 0.
Calling it a ROM hack is like calling every update to Windows a 'hack.' They had the source code, so it’s just an update to the original game.
Is the debug mode available in the early prototypes? If so, it may be interesting to explore the levels that end up blocking you from progressing further.
Yes it is
It is. I purposely didn't use debug mode because I thought it would be fun to see how far I could make it in a normal playthrough.
@@pojr definitely understood. Would it be worth revisiting to see what’s out there?
@@pojr Okay that is cool.
wow, that knock back would have been horrible. great video showing off these early Sonic 2 builds Pojr!
I remember watching a Nickelodeon show where kids were playing Sonic the Hedgehog, it might be the same one you referenced, I'm not sure, but I wish my memory wasn't fuzzy on the details, because I vaguely remember a lot of enemies they had to get through, some that were enemies from a later stage on the first level, and it felt like it was specific for the game show itself. I played the prototype just to see if it might have been the one, but none of it sparks my memory. It might not have been Sonic 2, maybe it was Sonic 1. I don't recall. Heck, for all I know, none of it happened and what I saw was from a dream.
It sucks that a lot of these zones were cut in the final Sonic 2 would’ve been massive
That thumbnail better not be fucking clickbait.
You won me over with the V-Rally music in the intro. A very colorful history, the Sonic 2 prerelease lore.
In my country, pirates sold Simon Wei's prototype instead of the normal game on cartridges.
It’s because it was actually stolen by a pirate before it releasef
Original level Order from concept arts:
Present Time:
Green Hill Zone (Early Emerald Hill Zone)
Ocean Wind Zone (Cut Zone)
Woods Zone (Early Wood Zone) (Cut Zone)
Sand Shower Zone (Desert Zone from magazines) (Cut Zone)
Metropolis Zone
Warp Point (Cutscene)
Ancient Time:
Tropical Plant/Tropical Sun Zone (Cut Zone)
Hill Top Zone
Blue Lake/Blue Ocean Zone (Cut Zone)
Olimpus (Early Hidden Palace Zone) (Cut Zone) (Secret Zone)
Rock World Zone (Cut Zone) (Winter version of Sand Shower Zone)
Warp Point? (I don't know) (Cutscene)
Ruined Present Time:
Rock World Zone (Again,maybe a ruined version?)
Oil Ocean Zone
Dust Hill Zone (Early Mystic Cave Zone)
Olimpus (Cutscene Version)
Death Egg Zone
Ancient Time After Big Tsunami:
Hill Top Zone (Again)
Blue Lake/Blue Ocean Zone (Again)
Tropical Summer Zone (Cut Zone)
Olimpus (Cutscene Version)
Future Time:
Casino Night Zone
Chemical Plant Zone
Genocide City/Cyber City Zone (Cut Zone)
Olimpus? (Cutscene Version)
Return To Ancient Time:
Fire Mountain/Volcano Zone (Cut Zone) (Later replaced by Neo Green Hill Zone)
Neo Death Egg Zone (Cut Zone)
Note:Sonic The Hedgehog 2 was supposed to have time travel
Rock World Zone may have been a transition zone to the present, hence why the maps show it in two places.
Olympus wasn't a zone. It may have evolved into Hidden Palace Zone based on its placement, however.
Corrections
The reason there's two rock worlds in past and ruined present concept arts is because the past was the 1st plan before being moved to the ruined present.
Also the tsunami thing was cut before the time travel was cut so it would be blue ocean then hill top before chemical plant
That would mean in the ancient time it would just be tropical plant before going to the ruined present. Also tropical summer is an earlier name and they're the same zone
Olympus would come after dust hill to travel into the ancient time again because metropolis aka the warp point was ruined. How the Olympus do that is because it's referenced as the 2nd warp point. It would appear I believe on the same spot as the ancient time concept art
@@jq2yt I know, only the levels are in this order, I don't count cutscenes
@@RatchetAndClank14 okay but if I were you I'd update the order only
@@jq2yt Already updated
10:36 did this dude really just say “Metro-polis Zone”
It's like the Hydro-city and Hydro(h)city thing that people use interchangeably. I say hydrocity but can understand why some say Hydro-city.
@@Qwertyexists nah the Hydrocity debate is different because both are valid ways to say it. Hydro-city (water city) or Hydrocity (Velocity). METROPOLIS is a form of city, but METRO-POLIS ISN’T A THING.
@@MarcusGronkowskiYe, I'm kinda stupid sometimes. I try to be relatable but mess up so badly. Especially on TH-cam.
@@Qwertyexists no no you’re good, I was agreeing with you, and saying the Hydrocity thing makes sense
6:17 did you try to make tails lift you up?
This is a prototype not the remaster and Tails can't fly in the original genesis game
I find it a bit interesting how Dimps decided to brink back the "thump against walls" mechanic for the Wii/PS2 version of Unleashed
I suppose it does make a bit more sense in that game, since each use of the segmented boost bar is something you have to commit to - and by extension, get punished for if you use it poorly
"Nobody was able to complete the 25 ring challenge"
**facepalm**
Yeah is he sure about tht?🤔
5:17 Hidden Palace is on the mobile version of Sonic the hedgehog 2 just with a level select code and it's entirely different since we have no buttons to Press
The prototype's title screen is different because it is based off the Sonic 2 title screen for the Master System/Game Gear version, which actually came out before the genesis version. Surprised that was not brought up in Cybershell's video too.
Getting stuck in dirt while knock back on metal and slamming on marble would have been wild.
I remember the Simon Wai beta well.
20 years ago when I started to go to Internet cafes because we didn't yet had fast Internet at home, I looked up ROM sides because very young me didn't know better at the time that this was actually illegal stuff.
Anyhow, finding any ROMs was rather difficult and I wanted to play Sonic 2 badly on my PC.
This beta was the only Sonic 2 ROM I could find for the longest time.
It bored me rather quickly back then too but these days, I can quite appreciate beta ROMs and find enjoyment in them.
Always thought hidden palace music was amazing the one left in the final game
What I want to know is why they didnt even attempt to implement Tails' flight when hes playable in ANY version of Sonic 2 prior to the Taxman rerelease and on. Theres no point to playing as him in the original release outside of novelty: he plays EXACTLY the same as Sonic. Out of all the behind the scenes stuff dug up for Sonic 2, none of the original dev team have given any explanation for this.
The song used at 12:51 is that Bomberman I'm trying to find it's driving me nuts I know I've heard it before.
it's not from Bomberman, it's from the Pac-man Arrangement arcade game
@@SneakyGreninjaI knew it rang some bells I had the gba collection with the 4 games in it man it’s been a while since I’ve played that game.
The picture with the cactus and sand and everything else at 11:47 that was actually sand showers’s picture and that zone has made it’s way to sonic mania
Fun fact: the weird snail enemy from the Nick Arcade prototype is in the mobile version (it might be in other versions, but idk)
I don't know what it is, but there is something really eerie about these ancient prototype versions of these old games
i woukld LOVE to see all the deleted zones on the final version of Sonic 2, they have such cool and beautiful style to them!
Wait...did you use some of the BGM from Hotline Miami in your video? Or are my ears failing me?
I remember watching a YT video that details the wall bouncing. When I played one of the prototypes, I hated it. I'm glad it wasn't in the final release
I think I've heard that final zone tries to load the eggman boss from Sonic 1 but crashes because I can't find it
So if you add it back will it not crash?
More specifically, it tries to load the PLC's (Pattern load cues; essentially lists of art to be loaded in VRAM) for the boss, but in the prototype, they're overwritten by garbage data, which causes this crash.
Even if you were to correct this tho, there's another problem:
The code for the Final zone boss no longer exists (it just points to ObjectNull, like every other empty object slot)
the music in sonic 2 is based on music composed by masato nakamura, you can hear the pre console music called "masa's demos"
they are slower in tempo for unknown reasons, the game versions have more changes from the pre console versions the early build music from simon wai sounds closer to the original demos
Emerald hill zone, chemical plant and hilltop zone might be the oldest maps in the game and oil ocean and airship might be the newest with casino night in the middle
Some parts of the level art for Hidden Palace Zone got re-used in a stage of Sonic Spinball, I'm pretty sure. So it at least didn't *completely* go to waste.
The knockback mechanic would've been terrible, but implementing something similar for when you get stuck in a wall would've been better than just calling it "one of Dr. Robotnik's diabolical traps" in the manual.
Video is good, title is a click bait. You didn't explain how anything was almost ruined. You just showed traditional different stages of development
Honestly, the knockback mechanic, if toned down, limited to when not spinning, and canceled when running into something pushable, would have been potentially fun, adding just a little bit more of a challenge to speedruns.
Die hard Sonic fans have played all of the cut zones, as well as Hidden Palace Zone before the Christian Whitehead Remaster on Mobile, which did feature Hidden Palace Zone (if you fell in the spike pit in Mystic Cave). Sonic 2 Long Version was a ROM Hack that had Wood Zone, Genocide City zone, Dust hill zone, and Hidden Palace Zone, although it wasn't the most polished versions, but playable.
I remember being in KayBee toys in the early 90s and playing a Sonic game. I think it was 1. and the idle animation, when you don't hit anything and Sonic gets impatient, he actually gets outy a yo-yo and starts playing with it. I never saw him do that in any other release of Sonic 1.
Someone needs to make a sonic origins mod where the original vision of hidden palace zone was put in, with you being sent there after getting all chaos emeralds
I like the knockback mechanicm because it keeps the game moving, which makes it more fun and alive.
Stopping at a wall takes the speed out of the game., it is always such a fun buster
I got a theory.Maybe the reason sonic would bounce of walls was
Chosen to up difficulty.