ThePrint Off The Cuff: former NSA & strategic scholar Shivshankar Menon talks with Shekhar Gupta
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 เม.ย. 2021
- #OffTheCuff
India should not risk leaning too much on one side of global politics, even as the centre of gravity shifts towards New Delhi. Ultimately, India will become more Indian and China more Chinese as they tear apart the traditional Westphalian order, Shivshankar Menon, ex-NSA and author of 'Choices: Inside the Making of Indian Foreign Policy' and 'India and Asian Geopolitics : The Past, Present.' tells ThePrint's Editor-in-Chief Shekhar Gupta at 'Off The Cuff'.
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Watching it for the third time and still have to rewind...what knowledge
Pajeet hai kya?
@@kimjongun5946 you won't know for sure unless you come get a taste of it
@@tanujsingh2350 What do you think of this 32:04?
@@kimjongun5946 this guy keeps hitting the g-spot with his points, wouldn't trust any political leader from anywhere to not gain political mileage from it
Not at all. He is an outdated fool from Gandhian socialist era who talks philosophy without counting the money in his pocket. India needs to align decisively with the west. Thats where growth and strategic safety will come from. He is saying obvious stuff that a foreign policy kindergartener knows. Re-engage east .. when did India' stop engaging east? Never! What is he talking about? Maybe after retiring he stopped getting briefs and he thinks thats the end of it. Jeez we need to get rid of these baba aadam ke zamane ke strategists.
Mr Gupta please ask Mr Menon what he is using for audio, it is so much better and can help you and the print going forward
SHIV Shankar Menom sounds apologetic about lack of shoring up defences against china during his tenure
@ws Naveen atleast they handled kargil well.
Yet at the end Pakistan had to withdraw, losing face so much that they refused to take their dead back, unlike 26/11 when 100s innocent died and your puppet PM did nothing except condemning seems he took some those weed too along with followers like you.
@@samirthapa6145 Rather it was 9/11 attacks that changed American attitude towards pakistan
@@samirthapa6145 It's good that our relations improved with US after 1998 ... It was largely due to India attaining nuclear power but the comments above are regarding US - PAK relations .... moreover during kargil our govt and army was caught off guard... even in OP parakram around 1800 precious lives were lost ..... let's not make this a political issue ,every government in the centre has progressed upon the work of previous govts. ..... It's not a one man show
@@SumitKumar-dt9cp hundred died ? any way it is less than pulwama, Gujarat mass killing
As Ambassador Menon borough out we need more research scholars and linguistic translators monitoring the Chinese metamorphosis . Revitalisation of our think tanks and making their reports of 20 yrs looking forward, into public discussions would also help in making government policy follow advice.
Thankyou The Print team for bringing this kind of discussion and the insights.
Starting from the "CutTheClutter" now i m getting addicted to "OffTheCuff" too.
Looking forward to read the book.
Wow what a conversation to listen to !! Shivshankar sir’s depth of knowledge and understanding is an absolute treasure. Great convo SG sir.🙏👏🏻
Mr.menon you were the NSA. Why we were lack of infrastructure along LAC?
@ws Naveen 2004 to 2014 who vajpayee ruled? Recently completed rothang tunnel work stopped immediately after 2004 election win. When chinese kicked our asses silently sonia restarted work. India cannot afford any individual negligence on national security?
@ws Naveen modi completed the entire atal tunnel ,congress couldn't even build it in 10 years.
@ws Naveen
Check the histroy of this tunnel before whining this much 😂😂
The whole tunnel is around 9km
And was supposed to be a 10yr project .
From 2004 to 2014
Congress after already delaying it by 7 years inaugurated the project and it finally started in 2010, and till 2014 for the amount of money that was spent only half of the digging was done .
That's already 10 years of time and money that the Congress wasted ..and here you say that it's a bad thing BJP did it in 6, this shows your extreme bias and stupidity 😂
After 2014 the next 3 years all the digging was done and by 2017 the tunnel was opened for emergency .. and 2018/2019 it was opened for more vehicles and 2020 it was opened for all ..
So while you can continue to whine and act like your father personally completed it in Congress period 😂 the rest of us know what's up.
The simple fact that you fail to understand and yet for some reason say it as something negative (not because you actually care about it, but only because this is not being done by your favourite political party) is that .. if FDIs happen in one such mega project that means several more can be facilitated with convenience in near future thru FDIs around the country ..and we don't have to unnecessarily increase India's debt for infrastructure,
And this is the same with any infrastructure projects in india..
There are two ways to finance infrastructure either the government issues bonds to take up loans or get FDIs
And for india as of now FDIs are better seeing the current debt to gdp ratio..
But for idiots like you who can't really look at policies beyond political parties.. who happens to have brought it ... A/C to you evryone else is stupid except you 🙄😒
It's ironic how you called others whatsapp University 🤡🤡🤫🤫
@ws Naveenlet's read your comments again 😂😂
"Half work was done by Congress and cosmetics work was done by legend modi"
So the fact that Congress wasted 10 yrs to only dig 4.4 km is something we should be proud of? And that BJP did 4.4+km of digging and even completed the whole construction with great safety features in 6 years is according to you just cosmetics work 😂
Get your head out your ass ,
Still funny how you call other people stupid and whatsapp University while you yourself show glimpse of a giant smooth brain ..
People like you only rely on these buzz words as facts and scream this full day and night 😂
Scholars across the board have duty to rise to the occasion and make the Asia subcontinent powerful, prosperous and self reliant and can be done only by by resolving bilateral conflicts.
Wow hats off Shekar for pulling this off, excellent discussion.
Thanks Shekhar! Wonderful interview. AmbassadorMenon is as usual- erudite, confident and absolutely lucid 🤗. Love you The Print for the wonderful work you are doing!😊
Always such a pleasure listening to Mr Menon. Can’t wait for the book.
Sir, you were with establishment for more than 40 years, what prevented you from achieving what you are preaching.
😂😂😂
Doval 9/10 - Menon 1/10
Hope you know that he is talking about the future . He did what was required, based on the situation and country's limits, when he was their in the establishment. What is preventing you from understanding this simple fact?
@@arunsar7893 EOD everyone can talk about the future after retirement, what he did when he was the NSA?
@@Shoumo29 "EOD everyone can talk about the future after retirement," - Exactly. People can speak freely instead of toeing the line, which exactly why we should carefully listen to what he has to say, whether we agree or disagree.
"what he did when he was the NSA?" - Clearly, something that you didn't think was right. But you see he is an expert with vast experience and was privy to information which you weren't. So, I would conclude that your disagreement with him is more to do with your political preference than strategic understanding of the situation.
He was NSA when China was carrying out Salami slicing of Indian territory. Shekhar will not ask about this lacuna and he will not admit to it.
😂😂😂
Bro don't blame him for that.
He wasn't the PM back then. Dr. Manmohan Singh had no real power or control over his government. The real power lay in the hands of NAC and Gandhi family.
So it's not Mr. Menon's fault that he couldn't make the erstwhile UPA government to do much to counter China during those years.
@Abhi Raj I also feel india should not left the RCEP..rather india should have pushed hard to keep check and balance for china..this is the protectionist mindset and also the domestic politics of swadeshi which had put RCEP of the table.
Actually he was the only one who informed that china is doing salami slicing and even trekked the whole ladkh region himself..but Rajiv gandhi foundation also needed fund so...ignore karna padta hai
China has been "Salami Slicing" even after 2014. You will not say that though cause you are selective exactly the same way that you accuse other people of.
Mr.Former NSA why we did not clear the heavy gun purchase after bofors despite pressure from army? Why it took so delay after IAF patent the rafel bidding selection process for procurement? Why NDA government faces and finds lack of armament (critical equipment) ,lack of infrastructure at.border areas? Why we are so soft despite mumbai attack?
He probably had to tow the line of the personality of DrMMS, who was heading a minority Govt!
He won't answer.
Gupta won't question.
This is called journalism.
@@raghunandan9290 well said
The Key takeaways are : 1.Develop a team to deal with east with more persuasion than power 2.Retain the power posture towards china to discourage any misadventure in all seasons 3.Develop out of box politics that makes borders irrelevant (which is the best and also deadliest among the three takeaways).
2. Is not working
As someone that is a critic of India, Shivshankar Menon is just awesome.
Mr. Menon should know that there are radicals from Gulf coming to India and financing things , having stayed in UAE for more than 5 years before this government I could say that there was resdicalisation in Indian youth in spite congress minority or appeasement politics.
That's been ongoing for 30 years really. It will need a lot of work to undo.
Those who are oblivious to the reality will cuss him and call him all sorts of things. But once you study SSM you realise how pragmatic and real his views are.
What's SSM?
It's wonderful to listen to shankar menon. Thank you for giving menon more time to speak 😁. My request for shekar Gupta is to bring raghuram rajan and shiv Shankar menon together and it would be feast for all of us to listen to them simultaneously. Thank you 🙏🙏
Raghu is more of a politician than a strategic scholar unlike Menon
Thank you SG! Loved it. Entire conversation was so lucid and well articulated. Looking forward to SSM book. Already pre-ordered it. Get him more on your show. Worth every second. I feel enlightened :)
Really enjoyed listening to the conversation and analysis..
Wonderful conversation ! Excellent points of discussion ! Very educative! Remarkably clear mind ! Thank you 🙏 to you and Your guest!
I liked the whole discussion.. shiv is great.. but when he said british were the only outsiders that did not integrate.. lolol.. typical Lutyens non sense
@ws Naveen Well, I think the British obviously didn't assimilate into our culture, but we did take some cues from them, like representative parliamentary democracy (Westminster system), a liberal constitution, an organised police force and military force, cricket, football, hockey, tennis, badminton, English, allopathy, etc.
@ws Naveen Britishers were colonisers and so were the rest.... and Britishers though unwittingly laid foundation to most of modern Indian institutions like VOTING RIGHTS( though we expanded it later ), Indian constitution ( GOI ACT 1935 ), IPC , Establishment of Educational institutes and University ( long after our own Universities were destroyed by barbarians )..... Certainly most of their actions were Self serving but it did helped India
@ws Naveen Having said that, the fusion of Aryan and Harappan cultures in Brahmavarta (SE Afg and NW Pak) around 1500 BC is the foundation of Indian culture, as this event marked the assimilation of Indo-Aryan and Dravidian belief systems to create what is today called Hinduism or Hindu culture.
Now it is in this foundation, that other cultures, be it the Tibeto-Burmese, Indo-Iranians, Indo-Greeks, Perso-Arabs and Turko-Mongols who invaded or migrated, assimilated into. Thus, was formed the Indian culture, which is actually very syncretic.
@@amanshukla8758 "Well, I think the British obviously didn't assimilate into our culture, but we did take some cues from them, like representative parliamentary democracy (Westminster system), a liberal constitution, an organised police force and military force, cricket, football, hockey, tennis, badminton, English, allopathy, etc." - Which of these did they want you to have, is the more important question. Answer to that is none.
@@arunsar7893 Question is not they wanted or not ? maybe unwittingly but they did build Universities etc unlike their predecessors who were Iconoclasts who destroyed our original educational institutions
Simply brilliant !!!
Shivshankar Menon and K. C. Singh, always enlightening to listen to them, with the added pleasure of eloquently framed prose.
Bless us. Respect and Gratitude.
Great conversation. Thanks for this 🙏 @ThePrint @shekhargupta @shivshankarmenon
We don't have to put a Public document .
*** We aren't USA .
USA can put it and win .
We can't .
He is an authority on China. Always love watching/listening to him.
Such a scholar with so much strategic depth 👌
Very intellectual discussion.
Very informative.
Thanks @theprint & Shekhar Gupta
Thanks Shekhar! Mr. Menon is well versed and has very educated opinions!
With all due respect to Mr. Menon, he is from old school where the foreign policy was simple to be on back foot and listen to every crap however the new pool of foeign minister and foreign diplomats know how to handle things with on front foot or back foot.
Given the Economic stature of India during those days that old school diplomacy served India well .... diplomacy is essentially a Velvet glove on iron fist
👏 Absolutely True.
These Marxists love talking, debating and abusing others
They sucked upto China .
They laid in arms lf China so well, they thought both being Marxists nations. China loves India, kind lf wishful thinking and thus help India grow after China developed.
....But it's too late .
Instead of Strengthening Manufacturing at home, they put all eggs in China , expecting largesse .
Fools.
@Abhi Raj Please explain where do you think being defensive backfired ?
@Abhi Raj With due respect sir these issue except somewhat Kashmir have got nothing to do with diplomacy ... It's more of political and most importantly military failure ( which always gets a pass due to " Patriotism " , and gullible public never questions them )
Throughout the cold war , we remain Untethered to either of the power bloc , courted both the superpower for our own advantage , That's how non aggresive diplomacy works
A delight to listen to highly knowledgeable Mr Shiv Shankar. Its because of such people we as country have a direction.
hi shekhar , thanks for bringing Mr Menon . ...quite fascinating , full of info , ...............waiting for next episode with him ..........take care !!
Thanks a lot..
Fantastic interview 🙏🏼🙏🏼
Useful informative show!
South Asia may emerge a major economic hub in world if the respective Governments work for it.
Wonderful conversation between two intellectuals 👍👌
A very informative interview 👍
Great interview ❤️
One of the best and interesting interview I have watched.Thanks.
The only solution to keep china in check is to empower ourselves. Our goal must be to keep our neighborhood peaceful as much as possible so that all our energy and resources go into economic and social development of our India. We need to run a marathon 5000 mts race where every 100 mts we have to be 10 mts ahead of everyone so that in next 20-30 yrs, we will be genuine super power not only in Asia but in the world. Our India must have leaders in all sections of society consistently for 30 yrs who will be strong ,pragmatic and ambitious.
Why didn't he ask him on India loosing Zorawar Fort + more areas in Ladakh to China under his watch?
He’s very wise and practical.
Very engaging conversation. Thanks Mr shekhar for bringing it up
Very informative. Thanks.
SHIV SHANKANKAR IS ONE PERSON WE PSIR ASPIRANT LOOK AFTER WHEN WE TRY TO QUOTE ANYTHING RELATED TO CHINA AND REST ,SUCH A DEEP THOUGHT
Brilliant program!
A very brilliant talk
Thank you very clear thinker
Excellent conversation.
A clear-headed person. No wonder if he has spent 50 years understanding China.
This is the dude on whose watch a series of bombing and terror attacks (on civillians) happened in Delhi, Mumbai, Pune etc. So...ya, he is good but take everything he says with a pinch of salt
For every terrorist attack India goes to war with pakistan for the world and China,Turkey we will be kids squabbling always. Best option is financial sanctions through USA but will she take that line in order to take on China only time will tell.
The NSA can only give inputs to the govt, the PM and Cabinet Committee on Security have to take a call on the same.
Why are there so many naxal attacks under Amit Shah ?
This is what happens when you depend on compromised news outlets for your facts. He became the NSA in 2010. The attacks you’re talking about all took place prior to his ascension as the NSA. We’ve had terror attacks at Uri and Pulwama. Does that automatically mean Ajit Doval is a bad NSA? I’d take everything that you say with a pinch of salt.
Humongous knowledge, terrific insight.
Excellent interview.. m sure the book will be a good read.. 👍
How to get a free pdf of the book?
Wow !
Loved it!
Mr. Menon is a great mind when it comes to these issues. You may agree or disagree with him, but his thoughts on strategic issues are pretty good.
This was a brilliant interview. I think SG can do an exclusive episode on states coming away from the Westphalia sovereignty system of statecraft. With rising nationalism across the globe - how do we see the next 25 years of the world evolving .........or even as Shankar mentions "going back".
Great insights
42:20 Eye-opening for me
I like the way of his orignal thinking and conclusion based on the facts available to everyone. But his last statement on western democracy demise or its alternative based on Asian thoughts definitely needs further elaboration
We need to follow “ The bond that unite us are stronger than the barrier that separate us”. We need trust between countries to save a lot of money and effort. We can put that money and effort to ease the difficulty in life. When the friendship is stronger it eliminates lot of unproductive things. To achieve this we need to follow the Do’s and Dont’s in international relations.
Brilliant ideas
Shivshankar Menon : "TN (all political parties) supported the Indian government’s policy of opposing efforts by the US and Norway to rescue Velupillai Prabhakaran"
Thank you to invite him for interview he highlighted many thing which we are not giving the values
Shankar bro good one
To say invasions are myth to divide us is to say gravity is a myth to ground us
Where do you draw a line? Why stop at the turks and arabs? What about huns? The point is to look at the present and the future of India not to cry at her past! We have to run the country and carry her forward not into the past.
@@immu164 please you people should also know about invasion many of your ancestors were forcefully converted you are not Arab or Turk so chill.
@@immu164 and for Huns you should also know about we also beat them in mauryan and gupta and karkota dynasty and Sikh beat Afghans maratha beat mughal Persian beat Arab so this not mean we forget in today's world this Turk are not powerful and they are beaten by many other countries so every country have to face invasion so chill
@Abhi Raj Maybe no one will even read this, but anyways, it's internet and everyone says something. Do you really think that we will let a foreign country invade us in the future? And if people have not forgotten the British why are there so many Indians in the UK? Believe it or not many of us, nowadays, remember more about what Afghans, Mughals did then what the British did. And where do you really draw a line? There was internal quabbling among hundreds of princely states present in India, so should we now revenge those also who once invaded our village from the neighbouring kingdom? Chandragupta Maurya Conquered most of India, so why should people in Maharashtra, rajasthan hail him? They should abuse him right? Afterall he invaded them. That was a troublesome time, chaotic place, let's acknowledge our past and move forward not go centuries behind.
@@shantanugautam3127 gupta conquer becuse of brutal regime of nanda and there is no evidence of forcing culture. Do you think if the country is not divided on religious ground there will be so much hate against mughal and turks. people go to britain to work and they are treate as equal if they are treated as colonial era there will be hate against them. It's not about revenge It's about not ending up in museum.
Mr. Menon is a great personality.
Yes, there are some things I don't agree with but it was a great conversation after all.
This is the type of stuff the 9-10PM 'Prime Time' was made for.
That was better than day sleeping 56 inch feku p.m
Wonderful Man.
Pakistan Army is not 85 % Punjabi. Punjabis in Army are around 40 %. Around 30 % are Pashtun and rest are Sindhis and Baluch and Gilgit Baltistan and Azad Kashmir
"It's not sexy"
-Former NSA Shivshankar Menon
Mr. Saif Ali khan should listen to this interview::))))
Love it ,a great ,good neat and clean discussion .. keep coming more of him please ,can we have this person on regular basis like once in a month .
At last,a chat with substance.Two informed intellectuals giving us an insight into our surroundings and geopolitics .Thank you Shekhar Gupta and S.S. Menon...🙏🏼
Superb
SSM great and brilliant as usual. I however thought he could have added something on how the polarised and divisive domestic politics is holding back India!
Can't agree more. The things discussed here are the need of hour for India. I hope Indian masses or at least misguided intelligentsia can have access to this kind of discussion in Hindi or regional languages. Subsequently, people can force various parties or governments to shape the regional strategy and policy.
Thanks Shekhar,
SSM has been one my favourite diplomat who speaks so well and obviously his sound understanding of international relation.
What a delightful interview!!
Dear Shekar Guptaji - very nice conversation and insightful. however, disappointed that you did not veer the discussion towards the "maritime" strategy and other neighbours but you remained "landlocked" in your facilitation
Please interview the current NSA.
He seems like too much China centric. No wonder during his consultation to congii govt they did so many strategic blunders.
The basic assumption which he base his book is, trade and relation development with neighbouring countries. By neighbouring countries he mean China. And till recently and even today we have good trade. Still it didn't deter China from border standoffs.
The new basis I think be combination of interests and economics. Weaponizing trade is very important. Seeing the interests of others, predicting their moves, aligning our menuver, at achieve our interests, and using trade and hybrid warfare as a weapons in this is the right way.
In my view the current gove is doing good on that front, congii seems like Chinese mouthpiece now a days.
Though I partially agree with you the current Govt is making India’s 80 % Participation which is going to cost us much. They will have to take every section of the society along to achieve sure success. For that they not only have to speak but also act at every level.
We can choose two paths in strategy. Toughening and easing path. We need to choose easing path. The pre requisite are mutual agreements and trust between countries.
Two things- 1. Please advertise your presence in other platforms better (Eg. Spotify) .. I just followed you there, after having read the description (which I don't do usually). My personal preference is to keep longer conversations running in the background whilst I do something else.
2. As your paying subscriber, my feedback to you is that the content needs to be synchronised across platforms, it is not at the moment. Great stuff as always. Cheers!
Carried out by successive govt but not gd enough, during Ur NSA period ready to give Siachen to pak in platter which pak wid hav given to China n never heard so called National parties signing agreement clandestinely with CPC, very horrible
“We have leaders on either borders who have a vested interest in managed and controlled hostility” shiv Shankar menon
It's good interaction.
Two things 1. Political leadership don't name China directly. 2. MMS said that making borders irrelevant.
My point is that why should name China if present PM has clearly said that expansionists policies are not good
Second point is that making borders irrelevant, does it mean that whole country to be in minority class. It's foolish statement.
Last but not the least, Indians mindsets are made secular by last 65 years congress rule despite 1000 plus years injustice.
Why listen to Confucius, listen to Bhagwad Geeta to run the Nation.
Vinod Shetti
How do you analyse when you answer: Q1. Who is India's best friend in the neighborhood/region? Who is Pakistan's best friend in the neighborhood/region? Who is China's best friend in the neighborhood/region? Again, Kautilya’s most significant contribution to foreign policy making is his famous ‘mandala theory’, wherein he postulates that neighbours are most likely to be enemies, while states on the other side of one’s neighbours will be friends. Considering the neighbors as enemies, can a country live in peace?
Totally spellbound and impressed about the knowledge n depth of understanding, Shivshankar Menon has.
Shekhar sir we want to hear more of such interviews.
Must say THE PRINT has a very bright way forward.
Excellent! Why isnt he in the foreign office again?
A very insightful discussion.. thank you print for this kind of interaction. 🙏
Absolutely fantastic listening formar NSA
You have aptly shown your level of intellect. I don't have to comment against your blaster, because you don't have any idea what you are talking about. Secondly I am not a leftist and dislike it more than you. But start reading more to clear your mind and enhance your knowledge and intellect. Thanks
@@chakrabortyengineers975 But his language notwithstanding, his points are apt. Those were indeed the years of bomb blasts being normal. Shivshankar Menon as NSA probably was not at his dextrous best.
Loved the talk. Good clear headed arguments.
One question for SG; not sure if he reads these comments. If anecdotal evidence is to be seen on the calming effect of ethnic minorities on pakistani Punjab from an Indian standpoint.
Pre-1971 we had three conflicts, since then we've only had one in 1999. Potentially due to Nuclear weapons on both sides and also the lack of money as East Pakistan was the cash cow. Similarly, a loss of Sindhudesh (only Sindhudesh and not Balochistan) could result in the loss of the biggest tax collections and create more pacificity in terms of outright war with India. As the focus will have to shift to creating better economy at home to sustain the army without imploding.
As long as Afghanistan can be made stronger and the Baloch insurgency be supported directly or indirectly; the Pakistani Punjab will get its backyard wars that they so crave and hence be constantly pre-occupied and out of this churn there maybe opportunities for consolidation of a South Asian identity which can be tapped at the right moments.
Sekhar Sir , After completing of 100 years of India's Independence India shall regain the lost territories of it's own 01 ) P. O. K.
02 ) AKSAI - CHIN in Ladakh
Nothing is gonna happen....
Shivshankar Menon is clearly one of the most clearheaded and erudite thinkers in the Indian polity. On the Iran matter, perhaps India needs to find its "Nixon-Mao" moment in finding a way to forge a new detente between US and Iran. Perhaps roping in UAE to help build bridges will ensure that China does not make further inroads in the middle east and India elevates itself as key player in its extended neighborhood.
Shivshankar ji what you think we should de couple ourself from a particular faction and Make india a better option for countries who do not want to follow either china or America