I appreciate Dr Westman's point-of-view, but I can confirm that Dr Boz's emphasis on measuring blood glucose and ketones is essential. I thought that I was doing a "keto" diet but stalled for three months. I bought the Keto Mojo monitor and discovered that I was NOT in ketosis. On reflection, I was eating way too much protein and nowhere near enough fat. I was also eating all of those ketosnacks. Cutting the protein drinks and ketosnacks out, I could tell when I was in ketosis from the measurements. What is more, I finally tried the sardine fast, for which I was very resistant, and my blood values proved the value of this dietary tool. I don't care if the FDA is not onboard. I don't care if there are no studies showing a benefit. I can feel the benefits, and this corresponds to the measurements.
Agree!!! I don't have the Ketones monitor, so now l think l am not in Ketosis. I am Epileptic and need to be in a High level of Ketones. Thanks! (I don't like sardines but l am going to do the butter fast.👍👍👍) Sorry for my English l am from Puerto Rico.
I don't think they disagree. They just have different methods of treating people. I would say Dr. Boz is speaking to a higher level of understanding crowd with metabolic disease, Dr Westman is dealing with people who are maybe not so savvy with data and really want to do the diet. Fortunately, we have both doctors here to help us navigate. Some people like fancy shoes while others satisfied with simple ones. Whatever works.
Well stated. To those with problem free issues simplicity is likely their answer. To those of us who have problems far greater Dr. Boz is for me spot on in her methods. I thought I ate lots of fat daily in the meats and butter. Born in the period, 1965-current, I’m 80 fat/ 20 protein. For me I’m so much better.
I love Dr Westman’s. Keto Made Simple approach. I have also done the 72-hour sardine fast and loved my results and the way a sardine fast helped me feel satiety.
from the first day i practiced keto diet, been 5 years, never measure ketosis. not even once. cos i have high discipline and able to reverse my diabetes
@@kentong9514I’m very happy for your results. I’m well disciplined and keto 2 yrs., Carnivore 2 yrs., now high fat carnivore with results. I enjoy listening to Dr. Ken Berry, and everyone. I’ve deleted a few and added others. It’s simply about what works for each individual.
My husband was prescribed Ozempic. Lowest dose .25, 3 months. No problems. Lost weight well. 15 pounds. Next Dr. Visit was dosed up to .50, ended up in hospital 3 months in. Had paralyzed stomach and small intestines. That was horrible to watch! He was in horrific pain. Surgeon told him he has 50/50 chance it will be a continuous problem. I eat keto. Got him to do the same. So far so good.❤
@@dlyose we want success overnight, and willing to try any medication 💊, if it promises success, quickly, without going on a diet, or lifestyle change. When you can get the same or better results, without the medication 💊, by learning what is bad for you, and choosing to change your lifestyle! I can eat things that I shouldn’t, but not often, or in a large amount. After a year, I have a completely different view of eating. I like a varied kind of meal, but I know what I need to watch. I order a meal, and don’t eat the sides, or very little of one! I don’t order alcohol or soda, and I don’t make the meal a celebration 🎉, it’s just something to make me healthy. It’s harder when you are young, but easier the more active you are. My 83 year old friend bikes over a hundred miles a week, is in great shape, and eats bread and hash browns with his eggs and bacon and coffee! I tell him, he’s my roll model, and he blushes! It’s just my opinion, but it’s working for me, for over a year. Lost over 50 lbs, and keeping it off. Go by your results, if it works, keep doing it, if you can, but change things around in your life, until you find what works for you. Good luck 🍀
How nice and refreshing to see that there's still people that can cordially disagree and not be mortal enemies and throw out personal attacks. Gives me hope for humanity. Thank you both for your point of views.
From.personal experience of reversing a rare Neuro sarcoidosis diagnosis with detoxing as a major component of my self discovered proticol, why do these doctors Not talk about detoxing in their overall strategy? Makes a big difference to reduce your inflammation and internal toxins so that nutrients and ketones are More effective. Fasting long enough can starve bad guys out but so will herbs that kill out the bad guys that have been there causing inflammation for a long time in a lot of achey places. Natural doctors talk about parasites causing or at least enabling inflammation conditions that overload the immune system. So it cannot defend against whatever gets into the system to cause the lupus or the sarcoidosis or the MS or whatever the autoimmune or cancer aggravation is.
Dr Westman is the man. 15 years ago I learnt everything he had to say and ran with it. He stripped away all my fears and bias which let me grow my understanding. Ive had a lot of other influences since but his lessons are still core to why I have a much better grasp on my health.
I love both of these doctors. I watch videos posted by both of them as soon as they show up in my feed. My experience with the lifestyle may or may not be typical. During the first month starting my keto/carnivore journey, I was very concerned about things such as keto strips, fasting, weighing myself as soon as I woke up, etc. As I progressed, I began to realize that none of that stuff really mattered so much for me. The diet is so powerful, I didn't really have to sweat the details. My weight fell off, I felt amazing, and I became physically fit. Easy peasy😂 I learned very quickly that I was never going back, and knew that my future was very bright indeed.
I did carnivore last year and fell off the wagon. Still eating mostly meat, but too many carbs to be in ketosis. But I THOUGHT I was in ketosis on some days bc I heard we’re metabolically flexible once we’ve become fat-adapted. So I thought it’s fine, I can burn glucose some days and fat on others. Not so 😂 I was outright lying to myself until I started measuring. The data doesn’t lie!! 😅 Game-changer 💯! It’s helped me create better eating habits so that eventually I won’t have to measure as often. Making steady progress on health n fitness goals now 👍
I was trying to get into ketosis for 3 weeks doing 20 carbs of less and using a blood ketone meter read from 0.1 ketones for the first few weeks got to 0.2 ketones and then finally got to 0.3 ketones after three weeks. I was not on any medications other than Levothyroxine. When I ate raw butter with the meat and fish that I was trying to change my diet with and I was really going through keto flu. I am 70 years old and my insulin resistance is extremly high. I have been now doing this process for 8 weeks now and have finally gotten to a 72 hour water fast and have done 72 hour sardine fasts with the highest ketone rate at 2.6 by blood measurement and 54 is my lowest glucose measurement. My workout rate of converting fat to energy is slowly getting better but 60 days in it is far from perfect yet and I have followed another person that has influenced me greatly in this topic of conversion rate and lifestyle change. His name is Professor Tim Noakes... I am trying to trigger HGH and build muscle doing Slow HIT training which is 30-90 second burst to failure. Love your conversation...thank you both for your input and helping us all!! Blessings in Him, David Mastel
@@jassmann1000 Hi Jass, I have fast around 1000 days over the last 45 years for spiritual reasons. I have never tried a keto diet in all those years... The last decade I have done 5 different 10 day water fasts and clearly started to do some muscle wasting. Now I am trying to consider the science of these new boundaries and there is a lot to learn... Our bodies are a miracle that keep on giving and I am learning so much of what it is capable of doing...pretty fascinating in my opinion! I am a thankful part of this incredible creation and I see the Master in His fullest realm as King... Blessings in Him, Dave
Me too - I was outright lying to myself until I started measuring. The data doesn’t lie!! 😂 Game-changer 💯! It’s helped me create better eating habits so that eventually I won’t have to measure as often.
I appreciate both of you committing to have this discussion. I believe I learned quite a bit, I especially appreciate Dr. Westman pushing for the studies, I also appreciate Dr. Boz for trusting her gut to while she waits on those studies.
This was one of the best episodes to date. Fascinating insights from slightly different angles which I found to be invaluable. Thanks very much for making this happen. I'd be thrilled if Dr. Westman was invited to do something like this regularly. Excellent content !
I’m 60 years old and am just now learning about the Carnivore/Keto world. These two doctors are both amazing and I’m very thankful I was able to come across them and try to listen to their podcast as much as possible. I feel like I’m on the right life path following their knowledge and teachings! Thank you both!
Two different ways to reach the same goal..the journey can be a little more pleasant if you do it under higher ketosis as DR BOZ teaches. Good that you dare to have a discussion about your different points of view. Greetings from Sweden.
So you like the extreme sensationalist binary approach ?? All I see being the by product of such an approach is more generations of girls, teens, women getting caught up the same obsessive eating disordered way of thinking . Imposing more rules and restrictions lead to panic and stress , failure etc etc …..more of the same old guilt, yo yo patterns which will ultimately fail the person . More commonsense and moderation required in the delivery of Dr B & the other hyper one , Dr K . Ironic that it is female Dr’s perpetuating the same stress cycles in their female audiences ! Sheeesh
I love you both and I love that you two could have a civilized conversation. Just listening to you both helps expand my understanding. Health a continuum of education and understanding. Some of us need to wade in, rather than dive in.
Chemistry is critical to change behavior, stick with the lifestyle and learning more about your body’s ability to recover from certain foods. If you don’t know your chemistry, keto is just another hobby. Thank you Dr. Boz for all you do!!!
OMG I'm soooo excited about this! I'm like 5 minutes in and When Dr Boz said "they don't wanna hear what we agree on" I was like PERFECT because we get to learn from each of you substantiating your positions. I'll come back after listening to the whole thing❤️
You are both wonderful physicians and I so appreciate learning from you both. In 1995 I went to Dr. Calvin Ezrin and he taught me about ketosis before it was, what it is now. I lost 50 pounds in 4 months, doing low carb, low fat and lean protein it was terrific. I have always incorporated it into my nutrition, now with the continuous glucose meter available I feel like the lost component has been found!! Being able to monitor my glucose is a game changer. 🎉🎉🎉
@@ellek6505 Yes, Dr. Atkinson was doing ketosis before 1995, but I personally didn’t know any of the science behind it. I went to Dr. Ezrin by chance and loved everything he taught me. At the time I was in my early twenties and introduced the premise to all my girlfriends and we were all very successful at it. None of them had, what I call a weight problem. As we’ve gotten older we’ve all used ketosis on and off and as we know it does work if you do it. Now with my CGM I feel like it’s the 2nd piece of the puzzle. I became diabetic in 2020 and now have my A1C at 5.3 four months ago at my last blood test. In 2020 it was over 9. Cheers!
Excellent conversation! Thank you for your courage to debate with respect and kindness and for your appetite to learn from each other so that all of us out here watching can learn, too. You unleashed great power in us by teaching keto a la Westman and a la Boz (and several others who have changed our thinking). What I've learned from both of you has saved my life.
I started out being afraid to eat fat. Whenever I start eating bad, it because my fat levels are low. I don't want to lose weight. But I want to be healthier
For some of us it’s a matter of misery or health to measure, like those of us with neurological issues. I suffer from migraines and measuring ketones and glucose has been the only way to get to remission. The Metabolic Mind channel has been helpful with this as well as me knowing my Dr Boz ratio. Thanks Dr Boz! ❤
I love Dr Westman’s laid back style. I have plenty of stress in my life and I need calm and ease… Dr Boz is just too 🤪 and intense for me. Personal preference. She loves to argue and is hugely attached to being “right.”
👍👏…. Totally agree . So hyper and binary . Patients destined to feel shame, guilt, failure if and when they fall off wagon & then will begin that age old curse of yo yo dieting which has plagued the obese for decades & led to ED . This approach is not sane . Being female Dr one would hope they better u/s the inherent psychological trip wires that lead far too many girls, teens and women if all ages on the path to dysmorphia and a lifetime of disordered eating . Protein, protein, protein, adequate fat and low carb & IF
This was so lovely!!! Such a wealth of knowledge you both have from patients!!! I could see how you two actually were talking out what needs to happen next for research! Love you both!!!
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. That's also important. Until the science catches up the clinical experiences with patients, and their favorable responses to diets is also evidence. And one hat doesn't fit all, probably never will. It is a process, and an individual journey.
I experienced getting into ketosis by lowering carbs and eating protein that was satisfying. If I wanted bacon, I would eat but not for the ketones. I lowered my fat intake bc I wanted to burn stored fat. And if my urine strip wasn’t a dark pink, I didn’t worry about it, bc I knew my energy was coming from stored fat. The scale, my body and blood test confirmed it. I hope everyone can get those confirmations!
Great discussions. Respect both of you. Thank you so much. Great info on current issues like CGMs and GLP1 drugs, intermittent fasting, protein vs fats, all things were are constantly adjusting as we learn more. Knowledge is power.
If someone told me to focus on protein, I would not have understood the ketogenic diet nor would I have gone into ketosis in a week. Being able to measure glucose and ketones with a Keto Mojo meter was helpful for me to see my levels of ketones and to understand that my blood glucose levels would be a safe and stable level even while burning dietary fat and body fat as my primary fuel.
This is a wonderful discussion. It shows how people can be more in agreement when they simply take the time to listen and understand the other person’s statements, thoughts and intentions.
I ate 0 carbs, carnivore, for months and never got into ketosis. I assume I was eating too much protein. Also losing no weight and I'm very overweight. I believe a higher fat % is required for ketosis.
Love you both! And love hearing differing views so that we can decide for ourselves. I think what Dr. Westman said about making sure who we are listening to is important because everyone is different.
I believe he says he's not worried about them because the amount of oils he recommends to be consumed is very small, and keto diets have proof to work, evem while including small amounts of oils. He has an interview from 2 years ago you can read online.
Indeed . If I had a teenage daughter w an eating disorder /dysmorphia I would recommend him over the other bc he doesn’t confuse and overload the evidence w hyperbole, binaries and extremes . Dr B & the other hyper female Dr K will create MORE disordered eating amongst their followers bc they are too obsessive . Sadly, both being women , one would have hoped they better understood the trip wires obese ppl face & which lead to falling off the wagon time and time again . Their approach will only lead to more guilt, shame, failure….yo yo dieting all over again .
I started doing keto with page 4 of dr Westman. This was end 2018 beginning 2019. In the years in I checked all over internet. Now I stick to Dr Boz her method. I learned to fast every week. Do days of omad and others days 2 meals . I noticed now having done the sardines challenge several time , my mind is clearer, a lot of energy and after so many years I think I am again dropping some weight. (6 years later). I need another 10 kg gone. What I want to say for me is to keep my body in the best metabolic state so cancer can't fire up . I just had my flu shot and 2 weeks later corona shot. I take them in a fasted state. Didn't feel anything, felt the same as always. I embrace the day I learned to do the sardines challenge. Best thing ever. It's now in my routine. Every 2 weeks 3 days sardines.
Great content and your 2 books are awesome😍!!Starting sardine fast tomorrow😊Wondering if you have recommendations for folks with high LPa? Thanks for all you do👏👏!!
Don't’ really’ need to measure ketones unless theirs a specific reason, or just curiosity. Metabolism adapts and changes over time so measuring if done too often may just be producing noise.
These discussions are great and are healthy . They arrive to the same points and want the best for their patients, they just don’t agree on the methods or the path to get there but both agree on much more than they disagree.
You are both correct. Within the 3 macros, to sustain life will always take 2 of the 3. Protein and carbs will create metabolic problems, such as, prediabetic or diabetic issues. Saturated fat and carbs is very deadly. Also, women should lean more to saturated fats. While men should be more on the protein. Hence, both of you are very correct. Carbs is the one out of the three to leave out to reverse health issues. Thanks guys for providing this epic podcast for us!
I have been on a very low carb diet for 3 months and did not show any ketones on the strips until I started going to the gym about a week ago. This was true even on after fasting for over 24 hours on one occasion. Now I show .5 ketones in the morning. During that three months I did loose about 20+ pounds and 3 inches off my waist, without ketones. I did feel much better and got off decongestants and aspirin. During that three months I tried to keep my carbs under 20 per day. Probably once a week I had 80 to 100 carbs. Another interesting thing that happened was that I started growing hair in a place on my body I didn't have hair before, at least not noticeable.
22:54 This has been a great conversation thus far and I'll be enjoying the rest. As a teacher of language usage, it's clear that both are doing their level best to find ways to help their patients, and in particular they both are attuned to the unique nature of a human being and are most effective when they're working one on one. Eric would love it if there were a great / meta level approach, proven in the conventional randomised control trial, over time (wouldn't we all!) though I think we all know that won't be happening. An individual must take greater personal responsibility and be willing to lean into a number of different strategies and monitor their own successes. ❤
I too have stalled out eating too much protein. I have to be below 5 carbs a day, and MUST have fat, and lower protein. With too much protein, I can't loose.
@@MsCateStar I’ve been doing keto /ketovore / carnivore or some version thereof for about 2.5 years. Amazing results even though I blundered my way thru it all. Speaking for myself and doing some food experiments after hearing about others struggles I have discovered a few things. For me “too much” protein keeps my blood sugar just high enough so I am just barely producing ketones like .5 to .7 although technically it’s at the very bottom end of “nutritional ketosis”. Important to know is if I eat “too much” protein PER day OR at once then this happens. So calories can matter but not in the way it is usually thought of. Timing in the day. Total time it took to consume those calories. Quantity at a given time. What those calories are made of. Etc. I can eat at a lot of dietary fat and protein and not gain body fat. If I ate those same calories from carbohydrates seed oils and sugar I would be miserable and gain weight super fast even though I am exercising. But if I increase my fats I can make ketones and begin to lose body fat. Exercise is REALLY important for good ketones production also. I now use this hard earned information to help target body fat or gain muscle mass but mostly to rest in the confidence and reassurance that any of this is now completely within my control understanding my personal metabolic limitations at any given time. You can do this! Amazing results await you!
That was seriously fabulous. Been doing this since 1998. It is a God send. Initially not focussing on keto but low carb protein (Dr Eades) then in 2011 keto through Dominic D'Agostino who read my treaty on organophosphate and solvent inhalation injuries. Then post gut surgery in 2020 caused from the bazillion low carb vegetables I was eating... I was reading Dr Paul Saladino's book while recovering from surgery.... been keto/carnivore since .... beauty. My doctors are clueless.
In terms of teaching/learning simplicity for beginners, I think I agree with Dr Bosworth, the emphasis and importance on fat is first and most important, because an adequate and appropriate amount of protein comes along for the ride without explanation. For example, High fat 73% lean hamburger will always contain an adequate and appropriate amount of protein that comes along for the ride. Very simple and straightforward. By contrast, low fat 97% lean boneless, skinless chicken breast contains an inadequate amount of fat and an over abundance of protein. Requires a more advanced detailed technical explanation about the metabolic problems associated with rabbit starvation.
What is clear to me is that this tow doctors really are in the business to help and cure people! They really enjoy to learn and work! It is a miracle this days when the urge for $ cash is the measure ! THANK YOU VERY MUCH DR. BOZ AN DR WAEIZMAN🙏
Dr. Boz, thanks for this video! My notes: Westman uses the word Keto a lot, but says Ketosis is not a goal of his “Keto” diet. ??? Dr. Boz realizes that ketosis defines a Keto diet. Westman does not care about measuring ketones; he assumes ketones (delusion IMHO). Westman advocates a “keto” diet but does not advocate ketosis ??? - He wants an RCT. Westman does not see the value of exogenous ketones - He wants an RCT. Dr. Boz sees the value of exogenous ketones. My conclusion: Westman should stop confusing people by using the word Keto to describe his wonderful low-carb diet.
Oh right off the start I agree with you Dr. BOZ so much! I teach keto and I find the reason most people "can't do it" is totally from a lack of fat. The fat is so satiating and makes you feel so much better than alternative diets that you are timing meals and counting calories so precisely. I think the number one thing I speak to people about is that getting enough fat is harder than one thinks, almost no one eats as mucb as they need to. To get your body to be fat adapted so much faster and end cravings with much less suffering I think the high fat intake is so key
Been on this journey along time. What works best for me is intermittent fasting with eating period from 11-5 or 12-6. Som fasting time 18 goal or more. Drink spring water. Consumer olive oil, mct oil, fish oil, etc. in my noon hour cup of protein/olive oil/supplement shake in blender. Eat some red meat, but can add chicken, sausage etc.
Good conversation! I am new to both of you and I’m interested in keto diets because my husband follows them on occasion. I follow Weston a price/nursing traditions foods. I’m interested in the sardine 24 hour challenge! Neither one of us have weight problems. We just understand the health benefits of good food and we are in our early 50s now so we want to stay healthy and vital!
Tx so much for this talk. I have wondered why my blood sugar would be high in the morning after eating only steak for dinner and a tablespoon of butter.
![Dr. Boz [Annette Bosworth, MD]](http://yt3.ggpht.com/WfdlK4hAtLXN0pbNT1UGRBAe53Vw5hmmlAuyvVV_OUs2FctDCAR2Ot0byG4T8N5Ux04V8wgWZSk=s48-c-k-c0x00ffffff-no-rj)
I appreciate Dr Westman's point-of-view, but I can confirm that Dr Boz's emphasis on measuring blood glucose and ketones is essential. I thought that I was doing a "keto" diet but stalled for three months. I bought the Keto Mojo monitor and discovered that I was NOT in ketosis. On reflection, I was eating way too much protein and nowhere near enough fat. I was also eating all of those ketosnacks. Cutting the protein drinks and ketosnacks out, I could tell when I was in ketosis from the measurements. What is more, I finally tried the sardine fast, for which I was very resistant, and my blood values proved the value of this dietary tool. I don't care if the FDA is not onboard. I don't care if there are no studies showing a benefit. I can feel the benefits, and this corresponds to the measurements.
Amen!!
Need2try the sardine deal.
Agree!!!! My body KNOWS
Agree!!!
I don't have the Ketones monitor, so now l think l am not in Ketosis.
I am Epileptic and need to be in a High level of Ketones.
Thanks!
(I don't like sardines but l am going to do the butter fast.👍👍👍)
Sorry for my English l am from Puerto Rico.
Im right there w you❤
I don't think they disagree. They just have different methods of treating people. I would say Dr. Boz is speaking to a higher level of understanding crowd with metabolic disease, Dr Westman is dealing with people who are maybe not so savvy with data and really want to do the diet. Fortunately, we have both doctors here to help us navigate. Some people like fancy shoes while others satisfied with simple ones. Whatever works.
Well stated.
To those with problem free issues simplicity is likely their answer.
To those of us who have problems far greater Dr. Boz is for me spot on in her methods.
I thought I ate lots of fat daily in the meats and butter. Born in the period, 1965-current, I’m 80 fat/ 20 protein. For me I’m so much better.
Sometimes, you like the lace ups & sometimes the slip ons. For me it depends on if I’m really busy or not. I learn from both😊
Debating someone without name calling who would have thought it in 2024
I haven’t seen a good fight in a long time. Where are you hanging out. People are too nice these days.
I like the simplicity of Dr. Westman. I found monitoring ketones too "fussy". I like the minimalistic method that he teaches.
Yeah. I don't measure anything any more.
I love Dr Westman’s. Keto Made Simple approach. I have also done the 72-hour sardine fast and loved my results and the way a sardine fast helped me feel satiety.
from the first day i practiced keto diet, been 5 years, never measure ketosis. not even once. cos i have high discipline and able to reverse my diabetes
@@kentong9514I’m very happy for your results. I’m well disciplined and keto 2 yrs., Carnivore 2 yrs., now high fat carnivore with results.
I enjoy listening to Dr. Ken Berry, and everyone. I’ve deleted a few and added others. It’s simply about what works for each individual.
@susanhayes6207 I prefer rib eye steak for satiety. Fatty beef takes away fibromyalgia and inflammation in my case.
My husband was prescribed Ozempic. Lowest dose .25, 3 months. No problems. Lost weight well. 15 pounds.
Next Dr. Visit was dosed up to .50, ended up in hospital 3 months in. Had paralyzed stomach and small intestines.
That was horrible to watch! He was in horrific pain.
Surgeon told him he has 50/50 chance it will be a continuous problem. I eat keto. Got him to do the same. So far so good.❤
@@dlyose so sorry
Glad things are getting better for your husband!
Impatience gets us into situations that are hard or impossible to get out of! Go slow and safely, no short cuts!
@hans-jurgenwiegand7465 Hi, I am not understanding your reply. Please elaborate.
@@dlyose we want success overnight, and willing to try any medication 💊, if it promises success, quickly, without going on a diet, or lifestyle change. When you can get the same or better results, without the medication 💊, by learning what is bad for you, and choosing to change your lifestyle! I can eat things that I shouldn’t, but not often, or in a large amount. After a year, I have a completely different view of eating. I like a varied kind of meal, but I know what I need to watch. I order a meal, and don’t eat the sides, or very little of one! I don’t order alcohol or soda, and I don’t make the meal a celebration 🎉, it’s just something to make me healthy. It’s harder when you are young, but easier the more active you are. My 83 year old friend bikes over a hundred miles a week, is in great shape, and eats bread and hash browns with his eggs and bacon and coffee! I tell him, he’s my roll model, and he blushes! It’s just my opinion, but it’s working for me, for over a year. Lost over 50 lbs, and keeping it off. Go by your results, if it works, keep doing it, if you can, but change things around in your life, until you find what works for you. Good luck 🍀
Love Dr. Westman! So fortunate to have him as my doctor. Excellent discussion. Thanks for having him on, Dr. Boz.
How nice and refreshing to see that there's still people that can cordially disagree and not be mortal enemies and throw out personal attacks.
Gives me hope for humanity. Thank you both for your point of views.
Right❤
Yes these two doctors are great doctors as well as decent people
From.personal experience of reversing a rare Neuro sarcoidosis diagnosis with detoxing as a major component of my self discovered proticol, why do these doctors Not talk about detoxing in their overall strategy? Makes a big difference to reduce your inflammation and internal toxins so that nutrients and ketones are More effective. Fasting long enough can starve bad guys out but so will herbs that kill out the bad guys that have been there causing inflammation for a long time in a lot of achey places. Natural doctors talk about parasites causing or at least enabling inflammation conditions that overload the immune system. So it cannot defend against whatever gets into the system to cause the lupus or the sarcoidosis or the MS or whatever the autoimmune or cancer aggravation is.
Dr Westman is the man. 15 years ago I learnt everything he had to say and ran with it. He stripped away all my fears and bias which let me grow my understanding. Ive had a lot of other influences since but his lessons are still core to why I have a much better grasp on my health.
I love both of these doctors. I watch videos posted by both of them as soon as they show up in my feed. My experience with the lifestyle may or may not be typical. During the first month starting my keto/carnivore journey, I was very concerned about things such as keto strips, fasting, weighing myself as soon as I woke up, etc. As I progressed, I began to realize that none of that stuff really mattered so much for me. The diet is so powerful, I didn't really have to sweat the details. My weight fell off, I felt amazing, and I became physically fit. Easy peasy😂 I learned very quickly that I was never going back, and knew that my future was very bright indeed.
I did carnivore last year and fell off the wagon. Still eating mostly meat, but too many carbs to be in ketosis. But I THOUGHT I was in ketosis on some days bc I heard we’re metabolically flexible once we’ve become fat-adapted. So I thought it’s fine, I can burn glucose some days and fat on others.
Not so 😂
I was outright lying to myself until I started measuring. The data doesn’t lie!! 😅 Game-changer 💯! It’s helped me create better eating habits so that eventually I won’t have to measure as often. Making steady progress on health n fitness goals now 👍
Dr Westman rocks
I missed the live show!! I love Dr Boz and Dr Westman!!!
2 of the best!
I was trying to get into ketosis for 3 weeks doing 20 carbs of less and using a blood ketone meter read from 0.1 ketones for the first few weeks got to 0.2 ketones and then finally got to 0.3 ketones after three weeks.
I was not on any medications other than Levothyroxine.
When I ate raw butter with the meat and fish that I was trying to change my diet with and I was really going through keto flu.
I am 70 years old and my insulin resistance is extremly high. I have been now doing this process for 8 weeks now and have finally gotten to a 72 hour water fast and have done 72 hour sardine fasts with the highest ketone rate at 2.6 by blood measurement and 54 is my lowest glucose measurement.
My workout rate of converting fat to energy is slowly getting better but 60 days in it is far from perfect yet and I have followed another person that has influenced me greatly in this topic of conversion rate and lifestyle change. His name is Professor Tim Noakes...
I am trying to trigger HGH and build muscle doing Slow HIT training which is 30-90 second burst to failure.
Love your conversation...thank you both for your input and helping us all!!
Blessings in Him,
David Mastel
good job!!
You are a very strong minded person! Keep on doing this, I applaud you!!
@@jassmann1000
Hi Jass,
I have fast around 1000 days over the last 45 years for spiritual reasons. I have never tried a keto diet in all those years...
The last decade I have done 5 different 10 day water fasts and clearly started to do some muscle wasting. Now I am trying to consider the science of these new boundaries and there is a lot to learn...
Our bodies are a miracle that keep on giving and I am learning so much of what it is capable of doing...pretty fascinating in my opinion! I am a thankful part of this incredible creation and I see the Master in His fullest realm as King...
Blessings in Him,
Dave
The measuring Glucose and Ketones - gamechanger for me - makes me keep going when I feel hopeless !
Me too - I was outright lying to myself until I started measuring. The data doesn’t lie!! 😂 Game-changer 💯! It’s helped me create better eating habits so that eventually I won’t have to measure as often.
What an absolute joy this was to listen to ❤
I experience these two people as a blessing to us all. Honest, integrous, and joyful people. Thank you both. ~Dr. Philip
Two of my favorites in the same video--awesome!
Thank you both for collaborating on this episode. I hope you both find time to do more of them in the future 👍😎👍
This was such a good conversation of two wonderful doctors
I appreciate both of you committing to have this discussion. I believe I learned quite a bit, I especially appreciate Dr. Westman pushing for the studies, I also appreciate Dr. Boz for trusting her gut to while she waits on those studies.
This was one of the best episodes to date. Fascinating insights from slightly different angles which I found to be invaluable. Thanks very much for making this happen. I'd be thrilled if Dr. Westman was invited to do something like this regularly. Excellent content !
I’m 60 years old and am just now learning about the Carnivore/Keto world. These two doctors are both amazing and I’m very thankful I was able to come across them and try to listen to their podcast as much as possible. I feel like I’m on the right life path following their knowledge and teachings! Thank you both!
Two master minds! Dr Westman is the calm, common sense guy. Dr Boz the master teacher helping us learn about our changing biochemistry!
I love that Dr. Westman needs evidence to treat his patients.
I love that you two sit together to talk!!!! Love both!!! ❤
Episodes like this one are my "support group." I can't tell you how much watching this helps me with motivation to do my best. Thank you.
Two different ways to reach the same goal..the journey can be a little more pleasant if you do it under higher ketosis as DR BOZ teaches. Good that you dare to have a discussion about your different points of view. Greetings from Sweden.
I appreciate Dr. Boz very much. Thankful she is in tune with what we need.
I’ve had enough of the doctors who don’t get it.
So you like the extreme sensationalist binary approach ?? All I see being the by product of such an approach is more generations of girls, teens, women getting caught up the same obsessive eating disordered way of thinking . Imposing more rules and restrictions lead to panic and stress , failure etc etc …..more of the same old guilt, yo yo patterns which will ultimately fail the person . More commonsense and moderation required in the delivery of Dr B & the other hyper one , Dr K . Ironic that it is female Dr’s perpetuating the same stress cycles in their female audiences ! Sheeesh
I love you both and I love that you two could have a civilized conversation. Just listening to you both helps expand my understanding. Health a continuum of education and understanding. Some of us need to wade in, rather than dive in.
Chemistry is critical to change behavior, stick with the lifestyle and learning more about your body’s ability to recover from certain foods. If you don’t know your chemistry, keto is just another hobby. Thank you Dr. Boz for all you do!!!
OMG I'm soooo excited about this! I'm like 5 minutes in and When Dr Boz said "they don't wanna hear what we agree on" I was like PERFECT because we get to learn from each of you substantiating your positions.
I'll come back after listening to the whole thing❤️
I love and appreciate both of you!
Wow Dr.Boz!
Great interview. You are so good at this.
You are both wonderful physicians and I so appreciate learning from you both. In 1995 I went to Dr. Calvin Ezrin and he taught me about ketosis before it was, what it is now. I lost 50 pounds in 4 months, doing low carb, low fat and lean protein it was terrific. I have always incorporated it into my nutrition, now with the continuous glucose meter available I feel like the lost component has been found!! Being able to monitor my glucose is a game changer. 🎉🎉🎉
Dr ATkins was doing ketosis long before 1995....
Thanks for mentioning Dr Ezrin, I will look him up. I appreciate getting my information from many different individuals to find what works for me.
@@ellek6505 Yes, Dr. Atkinson was doing ketosis before 1995, but I personally didn’t know any of the science behind it. I went to Dr. Ezrin by chance and loved everything he taught me. At the time I was in my early twenties and introduced the premise to all my girlfriends and we were all very successful at it. None of them had, what I call a weight problem. As we’ve gotten older we’ve all used ketosis on and off and as we know it does work if you do it. Now with my CGM I feel like it’s the 2nd piece of the puzzle. I became diabetic in 2020 and now have my A1C at 5.3 four months ago at my last blood test. In 2020 it was over 9. Cheers!
of course I meant Atkins not Atkinson. :)
Excellent conversation! Thank you for your courage to debate with respect and kindness and for your appetite to learn from each other so that all of us out here watching can learn, too. You unleashed great power in us by teaching keto a la Westman and a la Boz (and several others who have changed our thinking). What I've learned from both of you has saved my life.
I started out being afraid to eat fat. Whenever I start eating bad, it because my fat levels are low. I don't want to lose weight. But I want to be healthier
It’s good to see two great doctors working together to MAHA.
All I know is that getting fat adapted and keeping the carbs under 20 has helped me tremendously.
I love both but with Dr Westman all the way 🎉
For some of us it’s a matter of misery or health to measure, like those of us with neurological issues. I suffer from migraines and measuring ketones and glucose has been the only way to get to remission. The Metabolic Mind channel has been helpful with this as well as me knowing my Dr Boz ratio. Thanks Dr Boz! ❤
I love Dr Westman’s laid back style. I have plenty of stress in my life and I need calm and ease… Dr Boz is just too 🤪 and intense for me. Personal preference. She loves to argue and is hugely attached to being “right.”
👍👏…. Totally agree . So hyper and binary . Patients destined to feel shame, guilt, failure if and when they fall off wagon & then will begin that age old curse of yo yo dieting which has plagued the obese for decades & led to ED . This approach is not sane . Being female Dr one would hope they better u/s the inherent psychological trip wires that lead far too many girls, teens and women if all ages on the path to dysmorphia and a lifetime of disordered eating .
Protein, protein, protein, adequate fat and low carb & IF
@ Exactly. Well stated. Perfectionism damn near killed me. Gentleness and compassion also assist the healing process.
This was so lovely!!! Such a wealth of knowledge you both have from patients!!! I could see how you two actually were talking out what needs to happen next for research! Love you both!!!
This is a high-value and much-needed conversation.
The two of my favorites !!
Amazing information thank you
Thank you dr B and Western
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. That's also important. Until the science catches up the clinical experiences with patients, and their favorable responses to diets is also evidence. And one hat doesn't fit all, probably never will. It is a process, and an individual journey.
I would love to see you both construct a research project together.
I experienced getting into ketosis by lowering carbs and eating protein that was satisfying. If I wanted bacon, I would eat but not for the ketones. I lowered my fat intake bc I wanted to burn stored fat. And if my urine strip wasn’t a dark pink, I didn’t worry about it, bc I knew my energy was coming from stored fat. The scale, my body and blood test confirmed it. I hope everyone can get those confirmations!
Great to hear an explanation of why each of these doctors choose different things. Thank you.
Ben Bikman, cell biologist, and professor also states to Prioritise Protein
Prioritize as in get sufficient. Not overdo it. Professor Bart Kay, Coach Bronson Dant and many others also agree. Protein is vital.
Great discussions. Respect both of you. Thank you so much. Great info on current issues like CGMs and GLP1 drugs, intermittent fasting, protein vs fats, all things were are constantly adjusting as we learn more. Knowledge is power.
I think Dr Boz has started to win Dr Westman over👏🏻
If someone told me to focus on protein, I would not have understood the ketogenic diet nor would I have gone into ketosis in a week. Being able to measure glucose and ketones with a Keto Mojo meter was helpful for me to see my levels of ketones and to understand that my blood glucose levels would be a safe and stable level even while burning dietary fat and body fat as my primary fuel.
I love and appreciate both of you! Thanks for sharing a great conversation!
This is a wonderful discussion. It shows how people can be more in agreement when they simply take the time to listen and understand the other person’s statements, thoughts and intentions.
I love learning from both of these doctors.
This was a fantastic conversation! I want more videos like this one! Thank you for doing it!
Thank you doctors .... I enjoyed the talk.
I ate 0 carbs, carnivore, for months and never got into ketosis. I assume I was eating too much protein.
Also losing no weight and I'm very overweight.
I believe a higher fat % is required for ketosis.
Thank you both cuz you’re our guru Doctor.
Love you both! And love hearing differing views so that we can decide for ourselves. I think what Dr. Westman said about making sure who we are listening to is important because everyone is different.
Seed oils should have been talked about here. Dr W. Believes they are no big deal. They are so toxic at current consumption levels.
Dr W thinks seed oils are no big deal? I’m shocked 😮
I believe he says he's not worried about them because the amount of oils he recommends to be consumed is very small, and keto diets have proof to work, evem while including small amounts of oils.
He has an interview from 2 years ago you can read online.
@@donnahelps5680he follows the science and evidence.
Thank you! I’m watching now for the second time to see what I may have missed…. I need mire Ketones for my brain! 😊
Dr Westman gave me the tools to regain my life god bless you both 🙏❤️
Glad to watch this food fight, appreciate your thoughts.
Favorite Doctors I follow !! Thank you both!!
Dr.Westman is definitely trying to protect us more than anyone else.
Indeed . If I had a teenage daughter w an eating disorder /dysmorphia I would recommend him over the other bc he doesn’t confuse and overload the evidence w hyperbole, binaries and extremes . Dr B & the other hyper female Dr K will create MORE disordered eating amongst their followers bc they are too obsessive . Sadly, both being women , one would have hoped they better understood the trip wires obese ppl face & which lead to falling off the wagon time and time again . Their approach will only lead to more guilt, shame, failure….yo yo dieting all over again .
Thanks for your help 🥰♥️💙
Dr westman is not addressing the differences in men and women AND the/ butter hormone connection in females compared to males.
What Butter hormone connection in females? Good or bad? I would think the ones agents and xenoestrogens would play a big roll here!
I appreciate you both.
I started doing keto with page 4 of dr Westman. This was end 2018 beginning 2019. In the years in I checked all over internet. Now I stick to Dr Boz her method. I learned to fast every week. Do days of omad and others days 2 meals . I noticed now having done the sardines challenge several time , my mind is clearer, a lot of energy and after so many years I think I am again dropping some weight. (6 years later). I need another 10 kg gone. What I want to say for me is to keep my body in the best metabolic state so cancer can't fire up . I just had my flu shot and 2 weeks later corona shot. I take them in a fasted state. Didn't feel anything, felt the same as always. I embrace the day I learned to do the sardines challenge. Best thing ever. It's now in my routine. Every 2 weeks 3 days sardines.
Great content and your 2 books are awesome😍!!Starting sardine fast tomorrow😊Wondering if you have recommendations for folks with high LPa? Thanks for all you do👏👏!!
Don't’ really’ need to measure ketones unless theirs a specific reason, or just curiosity.
Metabolism adapts and changes over time so measuring if done too often may just be producing noise.
Westman answers each question so humbly, while receiving questions that were presented a little sided.
Great debate. I love your smile!😅
actually people die from eating just rabbit which is protein w/ no fat
Thankyou Guys.
These discussions are great and are healthy . They arrive to the same points and want the best for their patients, they just don’t agree on the methods or the path to get there but both agree on much more than they disagree.
You are both correct. Within the 3 macros, to sustain life will always take 2 of the 3. Protein and carbs will create metabolic problems, such as, prediabetic or diabetic issues. Saturated fat and carbs is very deadly. Also, women should lean more to saturated fats. While men should be more on the protein. Hence, both of you are very correct. Carbs is the one out of the three to leave out to reverse health issues. Thanks guys for providing this epic podcast for us!
Actually, from time to time, I find each of you a bit lacking. But together you are more focused. Very enjoyable.
I have been on a very low carb diet for 3 months and did not show any ketones on the strips until I started going to the gym about a week ago. This was true even on after fasting for over 24 hours on one occasion. Now I show .5 ketones in the morning. During that three months I did loose about 20+ pounds and 3 inches off my waist, without ketones. I did feel much better and got off decongestants and aspirin. During that three months I tried to keep my carbs under 20 per day. Probably once a week I had 80 to 100 carbs. Another interesting thing that happened was that I started growing hair in a place on my body I didn't have hair before, at least not noticeable.
22:54 This has been a great conversation thus far and I'll be enjoying the rest. As a teacher of language usage, it's clear that both are doing their level best to find ways to help their patients, and in particular they both are attuned to the unique nature of a human being and are most effective when they're working one on one. Eric would love it if there were a great / meta level approach, proven in the conventional randomised control trial, over time (wouldn't we all!) though I think we all know that won't be happening. An individual must take greater personal responsibility and be willing to lean into a number of different strategies and monitor their own successes. ❤
I too have stalled out eating too much protein. I have to be below 5 carbs a day, and MUST have fat, and lower protein. With too much protein, I can't loose.
Same here
You can't loose?
@@danmar007 nope. Just too tight.😊
@@noyebalmer8112 Can you explain that a bit further? I'm new to this, so not sure what you mean. Is this an issue of calories?
@@MsCateStar I’ve been doing keto /ketovore / carnivore or some version thereof for about 2.5 years. Amazing results even though I blundered my way thru it all.
Speaking for myself and doing some food experiments after hearing about others struggles I have discovered a few things. For me “too much” protein keeps my blood sugar just high enough so I am just barely producing ketones like .5 to .7 although technically it’s at the very bottom end of “nutritional ketosis”.
Important to know is if I eat “too much” protein PER day OR at once then this happens.
So calories can matter but not in the way it is usually thought of. Timing in the day. Total time it took to consume those calories. Quantity at a given time. What those calories are made of. Etc.
I can eat at a lot of dietary fat and protein and not gain body fat. If I ate those same calories from carbohydrates seed oils and sugar I would be miserable and gain weight super fast even though I am exercising.
But if I increase my fats I can make ketones and begin to lose body fat.
Exercise is REALLY important for good ketones production also.
I now use this hard earned information to help target body fat or gain muscle mass but mostly to rest in the confidence and reassurance that any of this is now completely within my control understanding my personal metabolic limitations at any given time.
You can do this! Amazing results await you!
That was seriously fabulous. Been doing this since 1998. It is a God send. Initially not focussing on keto but low carb protein (Dr Eades) then in 2011 keto through Dominic D'Agostino who read my treaty on organophosphate and solvent inhalation injuries. Then post gut surgery in 2020 caused from the bazillion low carb vegetables I was eating... I was reading Dr Paul Saladino's book while recovering from surgery.... been keto/carnivore since .... beauty. My doctors are clueless.
In terms of teaching/learning simplicity for beginners, I think I agree with Dr Bosworth, the emphasis and importance on fat is first and most important, because an adequate and appropriate amount of protein comes along for the ride without explanation. For example,
High fat 73% lean hamburger will always contain an adequate and appropriate amount of protein that comes along for the ride. Very simple and straightforward. By contrast, low fat 97% lean boneless, skinless chicken breast contains an inadequate amount of fat and an over abundance of protein. Requires a more advanced detailed technical explanation about the metabolic problems associated with rabbit starvation.
Dr. Westman for the win
So interesting to hear the nuances.from.both of you! Great.program.
Really enjoyed this. Great information.
What is clear to me is that this tow doctors really are in the business to help and cure people! They really enjoy to learn and work! It is a miracle this days when the urge for $ cash is the measure ! THANK YOU VERY MUCH DR. BOZ AN DR WAEIZMAN🙏
Dr. Boz, thanks for this video!
My notes:
Westman uses the word Keto a lot, but says Ketosis is not a goal of his “Keto” diet. ???
Dr. Boz realizes that ketosis defines a Keto diet.
Westman does not care about measuring ketones; he assumes ketones (delusion IMHO).
Westman advocates a “keto” diet but does not advocate ketosis ??? - He wants an RCT.
Westman does not see the value of exogenous ketones - He wants an RCT.
Dr. Boz sees the value of exogenous ketones.
My conclusion: Westman should stop confusing people by using the word Keto to describe his wonderful low-carb diet.
Love both of them!!!! Each one with their own methods!
2 of my fav drs on u tube thank you from Scotland
Oh right off the start I agree with you Dr. BOZ so much! I teach keto and I find the reason most people "can't do it" is totally from a lack of fat. The fat is so satiating and makes you feel so much better than alternative diets that you are timing meals and counting calories so precisely. I think the number one thing I speak to people about is that getting enough fat is harder than one thinks, almost no one eats as mucb as they need to. To get your body to be fat adapted so much faster and end cravings with much less suffering I think the high fat intake is so key
If you are not checking to see if you are in ketosis you will likely not. I stand with Dr. Boz
Been on this journey along time. What works best for me is intermittent fasting with eating period from 11-5 or 12-6. Som fasting time 18 goal or more. Drink spring water. Consumer olive oil, mct oil, fish oil, etc. in my noon hour cup of protein/olive oil/supplement shake in blender. Eat some red meat, but can add chicken, sausage etc.
Thanks, great discussion
Good conversation! I am new to both of you and I’m interested in keto diets because my husband follows them on occasion. I follow Weston a price/nursing traditions foods. I’m interested in the sardine 24 hour challenge! Neither one of us have weight problems. We just understand the health benefits of good food and we are in our early 50s now so we want to stay healthy and vital!
Tx so much for this talk. I have wondered why my blood sugar would be high in the morning after eating only steak for dinner and a tablespoon of butter.
I like how Dr Boz pricks her finger and shows her glucose and ketones she practices what she teaches.
Dr Westman is just the best. His book and programs lead me to 45 lbs lost and diving in to swimming daily (pun sorry). At 80 years...