gunner made his own video about the cheating, so I recommend checking that out as well: th-cam.com/video/-RZxq7Vhth0/w-d-xo.html also, someone messaged me to tell me how they figured out the cheating was taking place: "it was a conjoined effort between the td team and zarel. Zarel was asked by the tds to check the IPs that were used on replays and stuff and he managed to find that the guest account was doing this and at a rate that meant it had to be a bot. They then found out about the bot and were able to look into STAG who were using it to fuck up basically all the ubers tours at the time, who mazar was one of the most prominent figures in" here is the teal post mentioned at the end: "I've spoken a lot in various social-Discord groups and such that I think the staff of this site/game has a responsibility to the playerbase that goes beyond making the tournament scene / contribution scene is as good as it can be. I have noticed a trend - especially when in a TD position - of people putting an incredibly inordinate amount of self-worth into tournaments. ... My last effort to cull such a development came during OLT round 1. I (and, I believe 2-3 other TDs that gave input) thought that to avoid the "last second laddering" problem where players would sit at the computer for the last 5-6 hours of the tournament we could make it a "soft" deadline. My genuine, honest-to-god belief was that by making this "soft" deadline we would make it so that our playerbase would consider it impossible to devote that amount of time to zombieing for lack of a better term but this absolutely was not the case. Instead of playing for 5 hours many played for nearly 24. At that juncture I had a lot of conversations about mental health in Pokemon. The cheating that we do have is directly and absolutely correlated with the mental health of our playerbase. This is not a "pointing fingers" post in any sort of way, I obviously spend a ton of time playing and on this site, it's one of my main hobbies, after all. I don't have any answers though, and I don't know how to address it, but I think the external validation that some people come to this site to receive is beyond the point of reasonableness. I said this with regard to the Mazar-in-SPL cheating scandal - if you are cheating to the point of getting the opponent's teams in order to fully CT (thus reducing the chance of losing to near 0%) you are only playing insofar as you are going through the motions of clicking the buttons. To me that means the effort is solely to get communal praise, to have voices on the internet say you are "good" in such a way that, even if for a moment, it lifts your spirits. I understand the appeal of external validation for your efforts and in smaller doses it is a fine thing to seek out but I will say I fully agree with Beds's first point in this thread, it is unhealthy the amount that some people seek and are rewarded with on this website."
I can really see where Teal was coming from, considering that people do like when they are validated by the peers in a positive light - possibly esteeming from a life devoid of it, be it from parents or even acquaintances, like schoolmates and the such. It makes people feel included, especially when they themselves have the opportunity to see how tight the bonds between a community they want to take part of is and, personally, I think there's nothing wrong with that. If anything, I think it's great when outsiders eventually blend in with the regulars of an online site, making a name for themselves in the history of their community. However, the problem arises when you see absolutely no issue potentially stepping on the values of said community in order to skip the whole "make your own name" process of playing, sucking, getting better and all that. Instead, you just resort to underhanded methods to desperately acquire the acceptance of your peers, be it cheating or lying. It is immoral, but these people just won't care, because to them, the end result is what matters - the validation of the community, in their eyes, is worth the insincerity. And don't get me started in the cases where money is attached to that goal, things just get messier and it simply does not relate to the point, anyway. It is good to want to be validated by randoms on the internet? Why of course. We seek validation even in real life, while studying and working, for instance, and rather than being frowned upon, it is encouraged because that is how you create relationships with other people - good and bad - which is part of what makes life what it is. The point is that you have to get that validation in an honest way, with honest actions, not by lying or cheating just to appear more interesting than you actually are, because that eventually can and undoubtedly come back to bite you. To end this in a more... funny note? I actually suck at Pokemon, hands down. I can't strategize to save my life, and I play the game with a severe tunnel vision that doesn't let me appreciate the long term. Despite this, one of the moments I hold dearest was beating a big name in an old Hispanic Showdown server (long dead, unfortunately) and everyone going crazy despite me playing like a damn 5 years-old. I knew I got that win because I played badly, and so did everyone else, but even then, they told me that I had potential and that probably with some time, I would become a pretty good player. Now, I still am not a good player, unfortunately, but I still do my best regardless, because I hope to be as good as the people playing in tours and the like. Hard work always pays off, never let anyone tell you otherwise - they are probably just a Mazar alt.
Double kick Terrakion is the one that always stuck with me after hearing about this scandal. I didn't know it wasn't Mazar himself. Mazar might not have been subtle with his cheating, but double kick Terrakion is truly another level of obvious. What an idiot.
@@roninwarriorsfan It's not the move itself that's cheating; it's the fact that he's using what would in absolutely any other circumstance be a TERRIBLE move (especially compared to something like Close Combat) that makes it obvious that he knew what the opponent's team was before the match. You don't pick a move like that unless you're expecting an *extremely* specific set of circumstances, which is automatically suspect in a setting where players aren't supposed to know each other's teams in advance.
@@astracrits4633 tbh, I would be able to buy someone match up fishing there if they know the type of teams someone uses. But it's very strange to go into a tournament and run that. It's too far of a gamble and someone not running sash lead would be damn near an automatic loss. I would legit ask to bench my teammate if they match up fished like that. I'm surprised he was able to play after the second game. That should be an automatic dq until things are cleared up.
BKC, thanks for your in-depth coverage. I enjoyed reliving some painful memories from this SPL. I'll give my thoughts on the finals tiebreak game: From my perspective, after running into unfavorable match-ups week after week, I knew something was off. At the time, I couldn't even imagine it was a bot, but I pushed myself to be optimistic and get over it. The team preview for the final game was when I realized I was being cheated, but it was too late. Up till that point, you'd need to have a good understanding of the meta game to notice the counter sets and why they worked. In the finals though, he didn't take any chances. His team was perfectly crafted to win against mine 100/100 times. Some easter eggs from the incident: - Realistically, Mazar could've beaten me in 20 turns with all 6 Pokemon remaining. He intentionally sacrificed a couple of Pokemon to display a strong win but not domination. If he steamrolled me completely, it would raise more suspicion. - BKC was spot on, the entire game was a cry for help. I risked losing my M-Lucario turn 5, but I was so confident that Mazar knew my sets and wanted to show the public somehow. - Very few people questioned the moves, especially because it was the final game and Mazar was on a crazy tear. I remember the Smogon chat from that game went bonkers, people were amazed by the plays more than why they were happening. th-cam.com/video/PT2q1Bbihhk/w-d-xo.html - Mazar gave credit for the build to Lord Outrage, who built a similar team with completely different sets. Lord Outrage, not actually helping Mazar, accepted credit which allowed Mazar to deflect attention from himself. Ubers as a tier has lower number of usable Pokemon, with each of those Pokemon having lower diversity between sets. As a result, when someone handcrafts counter-teams, they can easily be cloaked to look like they're the meta because everything is similar. It's the perfection of combined team sets Mazar used over his opponent which was uncanny. The games where it was obvious was the Mazar vs Hack game and Trap God vs Gunner Rohan, but they did a good job not arousing doubt while guaranteeing wins.
my favorite part about that video you linked is mazar typing in the chats acting like hes unsure i can just imagine him typing with a big smile on his face "please dont be darkceus haha" as if he didn't already know and typing things in smog tours chat like "its so obvious hes scarf on yvel" as trying to make people think hes some expert team analyzer when heeven didn't take more than 20 seconds per turn to click a move like yeah right dude lmao
There is a massive difference between "Rain is a very strong meta at the moment, so I'll bring Water Absorb and Shedinja." and "My opponent has Focus Sash Smeargle so I'm going to bring Double Kick Terrakion, a Pokemon with Close Combat that can tear through teams anyway."
"I know the general landscape of the scene and bring stuff to counter those expected picks" vs. "I know *exactly* what this *specific* opponent is using and brought the perfect counter to that *specific* thing".
@@gregoryford2532 If it was SPL or whatever tournament and you had a hunch your opponent were bringing rain, you wouldn't bring full on shed + 3 water absorbs. You would bring a team well suited against rain and try to get the match-up right. The only explanation for bringing shed + 3 water absorb is if you ABSOLUTELY KNEW that the opponent was bringing rain, in which case, it's cheating.
Is was just as simple as having TAUNT lead on a moderately fast pokemon. Taunt is common as a lead move precisely to deny dedicated leads. It was as easy as using Lead Landorus-T, who outspeeds the crucual base 90 and Intimidate to be useful in the midgame, has taunt, rocks and STAB Earthquake; you know, A GOOD SET who happens to check Smeargle leads hard, even being immune to their Nuzzles.
You gotta admire the audacity at least. “Just so happening” to bring the perfect matchup fish of doublekick taunt terrakion vs smeargle is hilariously bold.
Stopping at just Taunt would have been enough imo, it's a relatively uncommon option but it's definitely not unheard of and nobody would think much of it on it's own, Double Kick is just asking people to look into the matter more closely
Maybe it's a tournament thing, but I've never encountered a Terrakion in gen 7 ubers, neither on low ladder retard teams nor on the mid to high ladder. I also used a "non-standard" team tbh, with Facade M-Mence as Ho-Oh counter with easy set-up and CM Arceus-Steel as late game cleaner. worked surprisingly well. I miss gen 7 ubers ;_;
This wasn't audacity, this was pure idiocy. If it wasn't for that, Mazar and the rest of the gang wouldn't have been caught. Terrakion wasn't that good of lead in Ubers - not by a long shot. It was brought solely to kill Smeargle, because Terrakion is a fast Pokemon with both a Sash-breaking move and Taunt. There was sometimes stuff like Excadrill used in there - but the damage calcs reveal that Terrakion wouldn't be able to KO Excadrill, much less any other lead... EXCEPT Smeargle, which always came with a Focus Sash.
7:00 I'm reminded of something Karl Jobst said in a video about cheating in speedrunning - he commented that runners don't (usually) cheat to get records they can't, they cheat to get records they *haven't*. If it's a cheating scandal big enough for you to hear about, the cheater is probably at least "in the pack" in terms of relative skill at the underlying competition. Cheating happens because people are impatient to get a win or a trophy or a record that they think they "deserve", and that feeling usually doesn't come completely out of nowhere.
The finals game between Gunner and Mazar that you skipped was hilariously infuriating. Gunner’s Mewtwo was in against Mazar’s Ferro and Mazar says “no mega?” as he switches out to Sableye right when Gunner mega evolves Mewtwo and low kicks, to which Mazar says “oh wow what a bluff” or something like that. What a shithead. Also love that you didn’t mention you were the MVP for GSC OU during the tourn, humble as always
in that terrak game surprised u didn’t mention that geo xern outsped ygod, which was very weird considering that xern can’t really invest much into speed as it needs some evs in bulk for certain calcs
it didn't occur to me at the time but some other people pointed this out and this is very true! taunt yv is really fast and z-geo xern is supposed to be crazy slow. I think gunner mentions this in his video as well
Lmao, the meltdown from this was magnificent I wasn't around at the time but just reading the logs is just bonkers. The funniest part is probably that the guy went on this rampage for hours on end then when other mods came in he just went "welp, fair. Don't know what happened to me but deserved, won't object". Over time he went on to be redeemed but he's still memed on because he forgot his medication that day or something, I mean ..... the meltdown was absolutely hilarious
@@sephikong8323 Somalia ended up coming back to the forums after his ban and was a good poster in the social forums. Seemed like a really nice guy, but that was about 7 years after the “Somalian Suicide.” Some people change for the better.
@@flashdrc I think he always was a pretty good guy, it's just that one day he snapped for some god forsaken reason and went completely ballistic out of the blue due to Energy Ball Jellicent of all things. I like to imagine how it went when the other mods were alerted of the rampage going on like : "Come help us, Somalia is going mad and he bans everyone on sight" "What, What did you do ? What happened ?" "I ..... I don't know, he just started banning people for no reason and we couldn't reason with him, he doesn't stop blabbering about jellicent" "....... Jellicent ?" The rest was history
I thought the whole point of Pokemon Showdown was to be convenient for playing Pokemon competitively because Pokemon's stat maxing sucks so hard compared to other monster collectors. If he was already a skilled player, that just makes it all the more pathetic. Bragging about cheating seems extremely illogical. Anyone can install a bot or a hack but winning a tournament skillfully is what gets you respect. _"Oh yeah, I cheated in the online simulator for a nostalgic Dragon Quest wannabe game during a tournament just to earn approval from some people online."_
@@WooperTrooper4 Yup. Pokemon took a ton of its "original" Kanto monster design ideas from Dragon Quest games and Dragon Quest 5 had recruitable monster allies you can use long before Pokemon came out. Some Pokemon even look one for one like certain Dragon Quest monsters just with a different color scheme. Not to mention Pokemon devs said themselves they only got the idea for the trading feature from trying to grind rare items when playing Dragon Quest games. Even Dragon Quest Dai's Adventure had the protagonist keep his monster buddies in capsules long before Pokemon.
This happened a long time ago so my memory is a little fuzzy on the details. Around the time of WCOP 2016, Mazar sent me a message after talking to me in a private room on showdown. This was roughly during finals of that tournament when Germany (Mazar was German and had friends on the team) was playing US East. I think I had mentioned that I had some connections to the US East team at the time since I was friendly acquittances with some of the players on the team. I don't remember exactly what Mazar had talked to me about, but I remember vividly him saying "You can finally help me with my plan". I took this as him wanting me to leak teams from East, to which I refused. I never talked to him again after that. To this day I don't know what he actually wanted from me exactly, but sometimes I wonder if I should have entertained what he was asking of me just to find out what he was planning.
Great video BKC! I want to make a couple of comments/clarifications, though 12:44 The Trap God or "The Vision" as he is currently is blacklisted from Ubers TO THIS DAY because he was never caught cheating while his replays continued to be suspect as all hell. Look no further than Snake II in which he faced GaryTheGengar who was using a sand team with a Waterceus; TTG decided that HO with MAX SPEED Reflect HP GROUND and a SolarBeam Rock Polish Primal Groudon were viable brings and what do you know, he rolled into Jolly Excadrill! 22:26 The Psychic on Lugia was and still is fairly common for stall teams EXACTLY for Mega Gengar, which otherwise has the potential to remove half the team, especially so when paired with a breaker like SD Groundceus. Stellar video of course, just wanted to get these two things out there. Fuck mazar's entire posse :]
Wow, that Primal Groudon really proves that creative sets can also win! Kudos to TTG for that! I also loved the Double Kick Terrakion. Double Kick is a move that almost no one uses but TTG really showed that with enough skill even these moves can be useful!
As someone who only got into Smogon on 2021 and is very fresh in the tour scene, I heavily appreciate these video of past Smogon lore. Great stuff BKC!
Intelligence is knowing how to construct the perfect team to beat your opponent's. Wisdom is knowing how to not make the most blatantly obvious picks that broadcast to everyone that you're cheating. Mazar didn't get that memo, evidently
I was REALLY hoping you'd deep dive into this saucy bit of lore after the end of the last video - and I'm so glad you did. What a wild ride. Maybe we can get some less scandalous deep lore after this? Tournaments with some insane games or something? Absolutely loving this kind of content from you either way!
As a spectator who watched the Tigers' meteoric comeback on Callous Narrates as it was happening, this scandal was heartbreaking when it dropped. Here was this incredible Cinderella story comeback in old gen tiers from players largely considered to be washed up or past their prime, and it turned out to all be based on lying and cheating.
i saw the terrakion in the thumbnail and immediately knew what was up can’t wait to hear about that other cheating scandal that i may or may not know about
tl;dr: the biggest plot twist in smogon history resulted in a well-known smogon mod being banned at least i think that’s the other scandal bkc is referring to
My only instance related to cheating was when a friend and I were in an LC Tourney and they asked me to do their battles for them. At the time I didn't realise that was cheating and offered to help but thankfully I never actually had to do that because they just decided to not participate in the tournament lol. In hindsight I'm really glad I never did that. I just thought it would be fun to play in the tournament on 2 accounts for more matchups. Botting is taking it to such an extreme though jeez I would've never even thought of that. It's infuriating
I got recommended GunnerRohan's video about how he felt by the situation and it's really... I don't know, upsetting? It's upsetting seeing how much it affected him and he had a pretty based view of why people cheat and how dumb it is. He talks about how it killed his motivation and how much people shit on him for it. Really sad.
Double Kick on Terrakion that park had me rolling. Think about the type of person you'd have to be to cheat this hard. These are the individuals who get labeled as losers.
@@turtlenator6249 to be fair Pokemons system of minmaxing is complete garbo compared to other Monster Collector JRPGs. So I cant blame VGC players using good ol PKHex to get their mons
@@RinaShinomiyaVal I can kind of see it, doesn’t mean I have to like it. Also most of this blame is on the TPC for, other than Japan, never seem to enforce their rules.
@@turtlenator6249 Enforcing the rules is impossible and pointless. If you edit in a mon with certain PID -Encryption Constant combinations, as long as it has the right IVs, Nature, met location, etc., it would be exactly the same as one generated by in-game RNG and caught legitimately. Not even humans with experience can tell a legal genned mon and a legitimately caught mon apart. Plus, there’s no real advantage in doing so. Trying to enforce “no 3rd party tools” would just be a waste of time.
BKC trying so hard to be vaguely impartial "well okay double kick terrakion... well... maybe you could say match up fishing...i mean, you dont want to sound salty or anything" DOUBLE KICK TERRAKION BRO
this was very insightful it's amazing how low people are willing to go despite not needing to cheat kinda sad that this happened to you. props to you keeping on playing and enjoying pokemon
Another video covering this topic mentioned two more things: 1. It was not Mazar who created the bot, he was the person to abuse it the most 2. The creator of the bot contacted the admins, spilled the beans and gave them access to their discord which included conversations with numerous users, including Mazar which is how he was found out in the end
actually, they only found out because goao was being investigated due to colaborated cheating with starmaster in smogon snake draft, and they asked for his discord (or he deliberately gave it away idk), and they saw the conversations. that has been confirmed by a td in the period btw. but yeah the creator of the bot, acacia (tourbanned forever), should be the one to have the credits at least, mazar couldn't make a sandwich by himself.
This was really interesting to listen to. I'm a casual Showdown players and never been into the Smogon site itself, but damn the lore is deep. Will you ever do a video of how Baton Pass broke Showdown back in Gen 5? iirc the ladder couldn't handle it hahaha
The amount of knowledge, and more impressive, the amount of lore/history you know, is wild. You should write "the competitive pokemon annals" or something. Make sure it isn't lost
the pauses where u can clearly see hes trying to contain his own anger r so funny LOL i love seeing ppl talk about things they care about this is awesome :D
On High Level cheating, I’ll steal a quote from the victim of one of Billy Mitchell’s current lawsuits: “Top level players don’t cheat to get faster times, they cheat to get good times faster”
Weirdly I thought this was allowed as when I attempted to take smogon seriously in gen 5 and part of 6 I was encouraged to do this by people in the tournament room on showdown and on the fourm once
Was surprised I didn't see any replies to this Normally it is absolutely normal for players to be desperate for any scraps of information about how their opponents might have prepared or what teams they might be using, and it's totally reasonable and expected but this tournament series was designed specifically with hidden teams in mind and more than that, there's a world of difference between "my opponent tends to use x, so i will bring y" versus "my opponent IS GOING TO USE x, so I will bring y"
Not on topic for the video title, but I really wish I had played Sun and Moon Ubers! I love the different flavors of a tier’s history, and USUM Ubers was the first ladder I ever hit top 10 on. Makes me really excited to be there for all of Scarlet and Violet :)
Yugioh's time rules used to allow extra turns after round end to conclude games, which caused severe tournament delays & an excessive rule change: now time-out allows only the current phase to conclude the set, which heavily incentivises stalling & makes any game that ends in time feel sour. Some tournaments have tried a soft deadline with rounds ending randomly within a 5min skew of the expected duration. Iirc, i heard that they went ok, but the real problem is that the minimum allowance must be to finish the current turn @ timeout. The old rules allowed WAY too much, 3-5 turns depending on tier, which is a recipe for a delayed tourney. I eagerly await a new rule change with a more moderate policy. Players don't need to be punished for trying to win under sanctioned rules, it was the game's fault for having policies that inhibit timely running of tourneys.
Coming from a smash bros melee perspective I think a lot of the blame also goes to the community for frankly scumming the rules. Smash has a 8 minute time limit and there’s matchups that optimally should go to timeout to maximize your odds of winning but a large portion of the community would rather just battle it out for more entertainment and also community pressure. Imo yugioh players should continue to call out players known for timing out and imo it will happen less. It shouldn’t be celebrated as a “smart” play to time someone out
I see a lot of people in the comments complaining about the video being long and ramble-y. I’m not sure if that’s the type of content you go for or if this is just an outlier since I’m new to your stuff, but I just wanna say I personally love this sorta stuff! 40+ minute videos explaining things I’m unfamiliar with are a favorite of mine, and I’m definitely gonna sub and keep an eye out for any of your uploads that seem to be in a similar vein to this!
that match with bro fist at the end had the same vibes as the dude that mocked DSP while kicking his ass and telling him he's a disgrace to fighting games. top tier 11/10
I'm honestly so impressed I can't get angry. This is probably the programmer in me, but I'm a sucker for creative solutions and you can't deny he's creative.
Honestly it's more logical for me to fault the runners of Pokémon Showdown, even more than the cheater. If they didn't think something as obvious as not having a way to setup your matches for no one to spectate even while their ongoing would eventually cause problems for tournament play-testing, it's so easy to see someone would eventually come and do something in the same lines of what this guy did. That said, it's definitely more sad to the players who are in the receiving end of those who take advantage of the naiveté of the admins than anything.
it's almost like prepping for chess matches. all your games are public so your opponent can theoretically prepare for anything you can throw at them, so it would be a good idea to have multiple teams at the ready for any opponent
the other day i played a game and then went to spectate another since i was at work and was scared i didnt had time to play a full game, a while after i was able to start a new game and found a guy i just watched, i felt so dirty to destroy him since i knew his team
For all the random Pokemon bans that Smogon was involved in as well as their draconian ban policies, whatever happened at that time was a long time coming.
You should really consider writing a script for your videos. It‘s quite hard to follow you, when you‘re not finishing so many sentences. Other than that I found the topic very entertaining!
You mentioned you hoped Gunner could share his thoughts. Well today TH-cam recommended a 4 year old video on Gunner's TH-cam channel where he gives his perspective.
I think a more simple way to call what Mazar was doing, he essentially had a Walkthrough Guide and knew what pokemon/movesets the "Gym Leader" had. Except in this case said "Gym Leaders" were actual people who had worked hard and built solid teams, instead of just NPCs with no emotions and on a strict set of dialogue. And at this point Mazar has proven he likely won't ever change, if he was unbanned and had another method to somehow cheat that he learned from whatever friends he has left, the pattern has already been shown and if anything odd happens people would absolutely be suspicious.
In defense of the guy, a single double hit move on one of your pokes was important at the time because of that pesky sturdy aron with endeavour and shell bell
Honestly I'm just glad this isn't "oooooh a popular vgc player used a generator to make a completely valid team instead of spending hours ofhundreds of dollars grinding stuff!!!" and an ACTUAL cheating scandal lol.
Would be nice if we could get some insider info from people involved on how they discovered his methods, assume it was just him boasting about it as you said though
@@not_relevant1353 long story short a respected mod named Bloo essentially rigged herself wins in a tournament under the guise of a user new to the scene called Style by ghosting her opponents as moderator while battling them. She was eventually discovered and permabanned.
Mazar and Bloo--the two most notorious cheaters in Pokémon history. Even Teams Rocket, Aqua, Magma, Plasma, Galactic, Flare, Skull, Yell and Star (as well as Rainbow Rocket) are shaking their heads in shame.
@@BKCplaysPokemon i guess what i didnt understand is that a player probably has multiple teams ready to go, so how would the cheater know which team their opponent is gonna select so that the cheater can load up the exact counter team in response?
because players don't have multiple teams ready to go. they test one team in particular that they're going to use, and they test it a lot, which is how he was able to determine it was theirs
just watched gunner rohan’s video and he has each week’s team laid out. so it seems like a player would spend 1 week intensely testing 1 team before using it in the weekly match?
I totally got most of the story but this being 45 minutes of a ramble made it so hard to follow I'd love to see a 15 minute scripted version of this that goes into more depth and detail and it would have millions of views guaranteed.
I did as well, such an incredible movie. It was such a great experience that could only be encapsulated in the medium of a 4 hour movie. The action scenes were funny, the romance scenes were heartwarming, and the drama scenes were full of anguish. I haven't cried watching a film in years but that one just hit different. It's a movie I won't forget about for years.
I'm kinda new to all of this been playing Smogon for a long time but was he scummy because he used Double Kick Terak instead of the standard Close Combat?
Yeah, that is what gave it away, nobody ran double kick terrakion because it gets close combat, which is a much, much better fighting STAB. Close combat is 120 base power and double kick is effectively 60 (it is actually 30 but hits twice). The only reason anyone would be running double kick terrakion is because they knew their opponent would be running a frail pokemon with focus sash/sturdy/etc. so the first hit would break the sash and the second hit would KO in one turn, unless you knew what your opponent was running you would be running some other fighting STAB (if you wanted to avoid the stat drops from close combat, terrakion's learnset also included sacred sword and superpower, which are both much more powerful than double kick
While fairly obvious this was made because he knew something, the prospect of someone bringing Double Kick Terrakion solely because they really hate Smeargle is hilarious to me. -What’s funnier is that this’d probably work as an anti-lead for AG but I’d have to see what low ladder is there-
The thing you don't want to say out loud but we all know it's true is that not all cheating is equal. Not saying we appreciate any of it, but at least with ghosting still literally playing a game of pokemon. It's inherently as fair as any other game of pokemon. I'd compare it to competitive Yu-Gi-Oh. I don't want someone to get a hold of my deck list, but that's also a whole different level than playing a straight illegal Deck with three copies of a limited card.
Which incident? I remember he co-commentated on the classic series vs McMeghan with Blunder on his channel, the one where McM got a 6-0 in g5 after which Lavos made that infamous forum post.
I believe it was discovered because an unrelated third party admitted to cheating with the bot and also had a list of people who used it . That’s just what I heard anyway
I loved the Double Kick Terrakion. Double Kick is a move that almost no one uses but TTG really showed that with enough skill even these moves can be useful! Kudos to TTG and Mazary for their creative unorthodox set and good for them that they managed to have success with them!
gunner made his own video about the cheating, so I recommend checking that out as well: th-cam.com/video/-RZxq7Vhth0/w-d-xo.html
also, someone messaged me to tell me how they figured out the cheating was taking place:
"it was a conjoined effort between the td team and zarel. Zarel was asked by the tds to check the IPs that were used on replays and stuff and he managed to find that the guest account was doing this and at a rate that meant it had to be a bot. They then found out about the bot and were able to look into STAG who were using it to fuck up basically all the ubers tours at the time, who mazar was one of the most prominent figures in"
here is the teal post mentioned at the end:
"I've spoken a lot in various social-Discord groups and such that I think the staff of this site/game has a responsibility to the playerbase that goes beyond making the tournament scene / contribution scene is as good as it can be. I have noticed a trend - especially when in a TD position - of people putting an incredibly inordinate amount of self-worth into tournaments.
...
My last effort to cull such a development came during OLT round 1. I (and, I believe 2-3 other TDs that gave input) thought that to avoid the "last second laddering" problem where players would sit at the computer for the last 5-6 hours of the tournament we could make it a "soft" deadline. My genuine, honest-to-god belief was that by making this "soft" deadline we would make it so that our playerbase would consider it impossible to devote that amount of time to zombieing for lack of a better term but this absolutely was not the case. Instead of playing for 5 hours many played for nearly 24. At that juncture I had a lot of conversations about mental health in Pokemon.
The cheating that we do have is directly and absolutely correlated with the mental health of our playerbase. This is not a "pointing fingers" post in any sort of way, I obviously spend a ton of time playing and on this site, it's one of my main hobbies, after all. I don't have any answers though, and I don't know how to address it, but I think the external validation that some people come to this site to receive is beyond the point of reasonableness. I said this with regard to the Mazar-in-SPL cheating scandal - if you are cheating to the point of getting the opponent's teams in order to fully CT (thus reducing the chance of losing to near 0%) you are only playing insofar as you are going through the motions of clicking the buttons. To me that means the effort is solely to get communal praise, to have voices on the internet say you are "good" in such a way that, even if for a moment, it lifts your spirits. I understand the appeal of external validation for your efforts and in smaller doses it is a fine thing to seek out but I will say I fully agree with Beds's first point in this thread, it is unhealthy the amount that some people seek and are rewarded with on this website."
o, i was proven wrong
i'm very sorry, for you, bkc, but thank you ofc
I can really see where Teal was coming from, considering that people do like when they are validated by the peers in a positive light - possibly esteeming from a life devoid of it, be it from parents or even acquaintances, like schoolmates and the such. It makes people feel included, especially when they themselves have the opportunity to see how tight the bonds between a community they want to take part of is and, personally, I think there's nothing wrong with that. If anything, I think it's great when outsiders eventually blend in with the regulars of an online site, making a name for themselves in the history of their community.
However, the problem arises when you see absolutely no issue potentially stepping on the values of said community in order to skip the whole "make your own name" process of playing, sucking, getting better and all that. Instead, you just resort to underhanded methods to desperately acquire the acceptance of your peers, be it cheating or lying. It is immoral, but these people just won't care, because to them, the end result is what matters - the validation of the community, in their eyes, is worth the insincerity. And don't get me started in the cases where money is attached to that goal, things just get messier and it simply does not relate to the point, anyway.
It is good to want to be validated by randoms on the internet? Why of course. We seek validation even in real life, while studying and working, for instance, and rather than being frowned upon, it is encouraged because that is how you create relationships with other people - good and bad - which is part of what makes life what it is. The point is that you have to get that validation in an honest way, with honest actions, not by lying or cheating just to appear more interesting than you actually are, because that eventually can and undoubtedly come back to bite you.
To end this in a more... funny note? I actually suck at Pokemon, hands down. I can't strategize to save my life, and I play the game with a severe tunnel vision that doesn't let me appreciate the long term. Despite this, one of the moments I hold dearest was beating a big name in an old Hispanic Showdown server (long dead, unfortunately) and everyone going crazy despite me playing like a damn 5 years-old. I knew I got that win because I played badly, and so did everyone else, but even then, they told me that I had potential and that probably with some time, I would become a pretty good player. Now, I still am not a good player, unfortunately, but I still do my best regardless, because I hope to be as good as the people playing in tours and the like.
Hard work always pays off, never let anyone tell you otherwise - they are probably just a Mazar alt.
Man I never cheated and I feel called out by this statement.
should pin this
Did you forget to pin this?
Double kick Terrakion is the one that always stuck with me after hearing about this scandal. I didn't know it wasn't Mazar himself. Mazar might not have been subtle with his cheating, but double kick Terrakion is truly another level of obvious. What an idiot.
How is double kick on terrakion cheating? Fighting types can learn fighting moves
@@roninwarriorsfan It's not the move itself that's cheating; it's the fact that he's using what would in absolutely any other circumstance be a TERRIBLE move (especially compared to something like Close Combat) that makes it obvious that he knew what the opponent's team was before the match. You don't pick a move like that unless you're expecting an *extremely* specific set of circumstances, which is automatically suspect in a setting where players aren't supposed to know each other's teams in advance.
@@roninwarriorsfan did Mazar write this reply?
@@astracrits4633 tbh, I would be able to buy someone match up fishing there if they know the type of teams someone uses. But it's very strange to go into a tournament and run that. It's too far of a gamble and someone not running sash lead would be damn near an automatic loss. I would legit ask to bench my teammate if they match up fished like that. I'm surprised he was able to play after the second game. That should be an automatic dq until things are cleared up.
@@roninwarriorsfan did you not watch the video or something?
BKC, thanks for your in-depth coverage. I enjoyed reliving some painful memories from this SPL. I'll give my thoughts on the finals tiebreak game:
From my perspective, after running into unfavorable match-ups week after week, I knew something was off. At the time, I couldn't even imagine it was a bot, but I pushed myself to be optimistic and get over it. The team preview for the final game was when I realized I was being cheated, but it was too late. Up till that point, you'd need to have a good understanding of the meta game to notice the counter sets and why they worked. In the finals though, he didn't take any chances. His team was perfectly crafted to win against mine 100/100 times. Some easter eggs from the incident:
- Realistically, Mazar could've beaten me in 20 turns with all 6 Pokemon remaining. He intentionally sacrificed a couple of Pokemon to display a strong win but not domination. If he steamrolled me completely, it would raise more suspicion.
- BKC was spot on, the entire game was a cry for help. I risked losing my M-Lucario turn 5, but I was so confident that Mazar knew my sets and wanted to show the public somehow.
- Very few people questioned the moves, especially because it was the final game and Mazar was on a crazy tear. I remember the Smogon chat from that game went bonkers, people were amazed by the plays more than why they were happening. th-cam.com/video/PT2q1Bbihhk/w-d-xo.html
- Mazar gave credit for the build to Lord Outrage, who built a similar team with completely different sets. Lord Outrage, not actually helping Mazar, accepted credit which allowed Mazar to deflect attention from himself.
Ubers as a tier has lower number of usable Pokemon, with each of those Pokemon having lower diversity between sets. As a result, when someone handcrafts counter-teams, they can easily be cloaked to look like they're the meta because everything is similar. It's the perfection of combined team sets Mazar used over his opponent which was uncanny. The games where it was obvious was the Mazar vs Hack game and Trap God vs Gunner Rohan, but they did a good job not arousing doubt while guaranteeing wins.
my favorite part about that video you linked is mazar typing in the chats acting like hes unsure i can just imagine him typing with a big smile on his face "please dont be darkceus haha" as if he didn't already know and typing things in smog tours chat like "its so obvious hes scarf on yvel" as trying to make people think hes some expert team analyzer when heeven didn't take more than 20 seconds per turn to click a move like yeah right dude lmao
this has so many problematic gamer-culture moments. glad he was found out in the end
There is a massive difference between "Rain is a very strong meta at the moment, so I'll bring Water Absorb and Shedinja." and "My opponent has Focus Sash Smeargle so I'm going to bring Double Kick Terrakion, a Pokemon with Close Combat that can tear through teams anyway."
"I know the general landscape of the scene and bring stuff to counter those expected picks" vs. "I know *exactly* what this *specific* opponent is using and brought the perfect counter to that *specific* thing".
the water absorb + shedinja was a team leak
@@COTC_Community yeah like there is a difference between a single water absorb who works otherwise in case of rain, and like, fucking shed
@@gregoryford2532 If it was SPL or whatever tournament and you had a hunch your opponent were bringing rain, you wouldn't bring full on shed + 3 water absorbs. You would bring a team well suited against rain and try to get the match-up right. The only explanation for bringing shed + 3 water absorb is if you ABSOLUTELY KNEW that the opponent was bringing rain, in which case, it's cheating.
Is was just as simple as having TAUNT lead on a moderately fast pokemon. Taunt is common as a lead move precisely to deny dedicated leads.
It was as easy as using Lead Landorus-T, who outspeeds the crucual base 90 and Intimidate to be useful in the midgame, has taunt, rocks and STAB Earthquake; you know, A GOOD SET who happens to check Smeargle leads hard, even being immune to their Nuzzles.
You gotta admire the audacity at least. “Just so happening” to bring the perfect matchup fish of doublekick taunt terrakion vs smeargle is hilariously bold.
Close Combat is just so overrated, Doublekick is the truth.
Stopping at just Taunt would have been enough imo, it's a relatively uncommon option but it's definitely not unheard of and nobody would think much of it on it's own, Double Kick is just asking people to look into the matter more closely
this is hilarious scum but mostly hilarious
Maybe it's a tournament thing, but I've never encountered a Terrakion in gen 7 ubers, neither on low ladder retard teams nor on the mid to high ladder.
I also used a "non-standard" team tbh, with Facade M-Mence as Ho-Oh counter with easy set-up and CM Arceus-Steel as late game cleaner. worked surprisingly well.
I miss gen 7 ubers ;_;
This wasn't audacity, this was pure idiocy. If it wasn't for that, Mazar and the rest of the gang wouldn't have been caught. Terrakion wasn't that good of lead in Ubers - not by a long shot. It was brought solely to kill Smeargle, because Terrakion is a fast Pokemon with both a Sash-breaking move and Taunt. There was sometimes stuff like Excadrill used in there - but the damage calcs reveal that Terrakion wouldn't be able to KO Excadrill, much less any other lead... EXCEPT Smeargle, which always came with a Focus Sash.
7:00 I'm reminded of something Karl Jobst said in a video about cheating in speedrunning - he commented that runners don't (usually) cheat to get records they can't, they cheat to get records they *haven't*. If it's a cheating scandal big enough for you to hear about, the cheater is probably at least "in the pack" in terms of relative skill at the underlying competition. Cheating happens because people are impatient to get a win or a trophy or a record that they think they "deserve", and that feeling usually doesn't come completely out of nowhere.
"Cheaters dont cheat to get a faster time, they cheat to get a good time faster" is the quote (paraphrased but thats the gist)
@@seankrolyk5814 Thanks, I kept wrecking the phrasing trying to remember it.
The finals game between Gunner and Mazar that you skipped was hilariously infuriating. Gunner’s Mewtwo was in against Mazar’s Ferro and Mazar says “no mega?” as he switches out to Sableye right when Gunner mega evolves Mewtwo and low kicks, to which Mazar says “oh wow what a bluff” or something like that. What a shithead.
Also love that you didn’t mention you were the MVP for GSC OU during the tourn, humble as always
That sounds hilarious, where can I find the replay?
What is MVP?
@@dr.c2195most valuable player
@@dr.c2195 “Most Valuable Professional”
It's truly beautiful and disgusting what people will do to get a 16 by 16 trophy image, wouldn't have it any other way
it’s always hilarious seeing people go so far out of their way just for a little image on their forum profile
in that terrak game surprised u didn’t mention that geo xern outsped ygod, which was very weird considering that xern can’t really invest much into speed as it needs some evs in bulk for certain calcs
it didn't occur to me at the time but some other people pointed this out and this is very true! taunt yv is really fast and z-geo xern is supposed to be crazy slow. I think gunner mentions this in his video as well
Babe wake up new bkc smogon lore video
"Yes dear.."
Loving these
Let’s gather around the campfire and listen to the stories of old
"I want a divorce"
Smogon gameplay vs Smogon lore
You should make a video about that time a guy got incredibly angry about a Jellicent running Energy Ball
Lmao, the meltdown from this was magnificent
I wasn't around at the time but just reading the logs is just bonkers.
The funniest part is probably that the guy went on this rampage for hours on end then when other mods came in he just went "welp, fair. Don't know what happened to me but deserved, won't object". Over time he went on to be redeemed but he's still memed on because he forgot his medication that day or something, I mean ..... the meltdown was absolutely hilarious
@@sephikong8323 how can I find this please?
Tired of this shitass game
@@sephikong8323 Somalia ended up coming back to the forums after his ban and was a good poster in the social forums. Seemed like a really nice guy, but that was about 7 years after the “Somalian Suicide.” Some people change for the better.
@@flashdrc I think he always was a pretty good guy, it's just that one day he snapped for some god forsaken reason and went completely ballistic out of the blue due to Energy Ball Jellicent of all things.
I like to imagine how it went when the other mods were alerted of the rampage going on like :
"Come help us, Somalia is going mad and he bans everyone on sight"
"What, What did you do ? What happened ?"
"I ..... I don't know, he just started banning people for no reason and we couldn't reason with him, he doesn't stop blabbering about jellicent"
"....... Jellicent ?"
The rest was history
You know it's a scandal when the first thing you see in a BKC video is a spreadsheet.
I thought the whole point of Pokemon Showdown was to be convenient for playing Pokemon competitively because Pokemon's stat maxing sucks so hard compared to other monster collectors. If he was already a skilled player, that just makes it all the more pathetic. Bragging about cheating seems extremely illogical. Anyone can install a bot or a hack but winning a tournament skillfully is what gets you respect.
_"Oh yeah, I cheated in the online simulator for a nostalgic Dragon Quest wannabe game during a tournament just to earn approval from some people online."_
NOSTALGIC DRAGON QUEST WANNABE LMFAOOO OMGG
@@WooperTrooper4 it’s true though
@@WooperTrooper4 Yup. Pokemon took a ton of its "original" Kanto monster design ideas from Dragon Quest games and Dragon Quest 5 had recruitable monster allies you can use long before Pokemon came out. Some Pokemon even look one for one like certain Dragon Quest monsters just with a different color scheme. Not to mention Pokemon devs said themselves they only got the idea for the trading feature from trying to grind rare items when playing Dragon Quest games. Even Dragon Quest Dai's Adventure had the protagonist keep his monster buddies in capsules long before Pokemon.
the thing is that he got allready caught being ghosted throughout his tournamet carrer
HEY! It's a wannabe Dragon quest WITH TRADING CAPABILITIES BABY!
Moral of the story, if you are going to cheat, make sure you don't brag about it.
Moral of the story, win by your own merit and skill instead of cheating. In short, git gud lol
@@Akumo69 Moral of the story, don't run double kick on your terrakion
Double Terrakion is goated.@@thealbinotadpole2878
All I want is an entire docu-series where BKC goes over and breaks down all the biggest cheaters in pokemon history
I like to think that in-universe competitive Pokémon battling is EXACTLY the same as in ours
Doubles are the ones they fight to become Gym Leaders, Elite Four and Champions
While we the Smogon folk are out there battling in a dark alley
This happened a long time ago so my memory is a little fuzzy on the details. Around the time of WCOP 2016, Mazar sent me a message after talking to me in a private room on showdown. This was roughly during finals of that tournament when Germany (Mazar was German and had friends on the team) was playing US East. I think I had mentioned that I had some connections to the US East team at the time since I was friendly acquittances with some of the players on the team. I don't remember exactly what Mazar had talked to me about, but I remember vividly him saying "You can finally help me with my plan". I took this as him wanting me to leak teams from East, to which I refused. I never talked to him again after that. To this day I don't know what he actually wanted from me exactly, but sometimes I wonder if I should have entertained what he was asking of me just to find out what he was planning.
that's why you always say "i'll think about it" even if you know you're going to end up saying no ;)
It’s interesting listening to people talk about the lore of events/things they’re passionate about. Great video
Great video BKC! I want to make a couple of comments/clarifications, though
12:44 The Trap God or "The Vision" as he is currently is blacklisted from Ubers TO THIS DAY because he was never caught cheating while his replays continued to be suspect as all hell. Look no further than Snake II in which he faced GaryTheGengar who was using a sand team with a Waterceus; TTG decided that HO with MAX SPEED Reflect HP GROUND and a SolarBeam Rock Polish Primal Groudon were viable brings and what do you know, he rolled into Jolly Excadrill!
22:26 The Psychic on Lugia was and still is fairly common for stall teams EXACTLY for Mega Gengar, which otherwise has the potential to remove half the team, especially so when paired with a breaker like SD Groundceus.
Stellar video of course, just wanted to get these two things out there. Fuck mazar's entire posse :]
!
Wow, that Primal Groudon really proves that creative sets can also win! Kudos to TTG for that! I also loved the Double Kick Terrakion. Double Kick is a move that almost no one uses but TTG really showed that with enough skill even these moves can be useful!
@@dr.c2195it's also incredible how TTG is a clairvoyant. He could predict the matchups really accurately which is an insane feat!
@@theschnozzler No, he actually used a clever programming trick to make that happen. TTG would not cheat by using Psychic powers. He only plays fair.
As someone who only got into Smogon on 2021 and is very fresh in the tour scene, I heavily appreciate these video of past Smogon lore. Great stuff BKC!
Intelligence is knowing how to construct the perfect team to beat your opponent's. Wisdom is knowing how to not make the most blatantly obvious picks that broadcast to everyone that you're cheating. Mazar didn't get that memo, evidently
I was REALLY hoping you'd deep dive into this saucy bit of lore after the end of the last video - and I'm so glad you did. What a wild ride.
Maybe we can get some less scandalous deep lore after this? Tournaments with some insane games or something? Absolutely loving this kind of content from you either way!
As a spectator who watched the Tigers' meteoric comeback on Callous Narrates as it was happening, this scandal was heartbreaking when it dropped. Here was this incredible Cinderella story comeback in old gen tiers from players largely considered to be washed up or past their prime, and it turned out to all be based on lying and cheating.
i saw the terrakion in the thumbnail and immediately knew what was up
can’t wait to hear about that other cheating scandal that i may or may not know about
Can you give a quick rundown?
tl;dr: the biggest plot twist in smogon history resulted in a well-known smogon mod being banned
at least i think that’s the other scandal bkc is referring to
correct
@@TheDunsparceGames i thought that was what he was talking about lol
Bloo moment
My only instance related to cheating was when a friend and I were in an LC Tourney and they asked me to do their battles for them. At the time I didn't realise that was cheating and offered to help but thankfully I never actually had to do that because they just decided to not participate in the tournament lol. In hindsight I'm really glad I never did that. I just thought it would be fun to play in the tournament on 2 accounts for more matchups. Botting is taking it to such an extreme though jeez I would've never even thought of that. It's infuriating
A strong double kick mon for Sash Smeargle is clever, gonna keep that in mind for when I delve into low ladder Showdown Nat Dex AG
@@gregoryford2532 you could but most anything that uses those can't instantly ohko like a double kick mon could
@@azelfdaboi5265 we are talking about smeargle.
I got recommended GunnerRohan's video about how he felt by the situation and it's really... I don't know, upsetting? It's upsetting seeing how much it affected him and he had a pretty based view of why people cheat and how dumb it is. He talks about how it killed his motivation and how much people shit on him for it. Really sad.
Double Kick on Terrakion that park had me rolling.
Think about the type of person you'd have to be to cheat this hard.
These are the individuals who get labeled as losers.
Double kick terack is just the optimal set in Ubers 💀
Cheating on freaking Pokémon Showdown has to be the lowest of lows, go touch grass, in fact get grass thrown at you.
Don't just get grass thrown at you, get hit by wood hammer
Yeesh, if people even cheat on Showdown, nothing the TPC will do will stop VGC players.
@@turtlenator6249 to be fair Pokemons system of minmaxing is complete garbo compared to other Monster Collector JRPGs. So I cant blame VGC players using good ol PKHex to get their mons
@@RinaShinomiyaVal I can kind of see it, doesn’t mean I have to like it. Also most of this blame is on the TPC for, other than Japan, never seem to enforce their rules.
@@turtlenator6249 Enforcing the rules is impossible and pointless.
If you edit in a mon with certain PID -Encryption Constant combinations, as long as it has the right IVs, Nature, met location, etc., it would be exactly the same as one generated by in-game RNG and caught legitimately.
Not even humans with experience can tell a legal genned mon and a legitimately caught mon apart. Plus, there’s no real advantage in doing so. Trying to enforce “no 3rd party tools” would just be a waste of time.
BKC trying so hard to be vaguely impartial "well okay double kick terrakion... well... maybe you could say match up fishing...i mean, you dont want to sound salty or anything"
DOUBLE KICK TERRAKION BRO
double kick terrakion still hilarious to this day
#newmeta
Damn, I was expecting Style/Bloo
this was very insightful it's amazing how low people are willing to go despite not needing to cheat kinda sad that this happened to you. props to you keeping on playing and enjoying pokemon
I actually laughed so hard at the double kick reveal
Another video covering this topic mentioned two more things:
1. It was not Mazar who created the bot, he was the person to abuse it the most
2. The creator of the bot contacted the admins, spilled the beans and gave them access to their discord which included conversations with numerous users, including Mazar which is how he was found out in the end
actually, they only found out because goao was being investigated due to colaborated cheating with starmaster in smogon snake draft, and they asked for his discord (or he deliberately gave it away idk), and they saw the conversations. that has been confirmed by a td in the period btw. but yeah the creator of the bot, acacia (tourbanned forever), should be the one to have the credits at least, mazar couldn't make a sandwich by himself.
This was really interesting to listen to. I'm a casual Showdown players and never been into the Smogon site itself, but damn the lore is deep.
Will you ever do a video of how Baton Pass broke Showdown back in Gen 5?
iirc the ladder couldn't handle it hahaha
The amount of knowledge, and more impressive, the amount of lore/history you know, is wild. You should write "the competitive pokemon annals" or something. Make sure it isn't lost
!!!
@@LuizOMenudo!!!!!
the pauses where u can clearly see hes trying to contain his own anger r so funny LOL i love seeing ppl talk about things they care about this is awesome :D
On High Level cheating, I’ll steal a quote from the victim of one of Billy Mitchell’s current lawsuits:
“Top level players don’t cheat to get faster times, they cheat to get good times faster”
Weirdly I thought this was allowed as when I attempted to take smogon seriously in gen 5 and part of 6 I was encouraged to do this by people in the tournament room on showdown and on the fourm once
Was surprised I didn't see any replies to this
Normally it is absolutely normal for players to be desperate for any scraps of information about how their opponents might have prepared or what teams they might be using, and it's totally reasonable and expected
but this tournament series was designed specifically with hidden teams in mind
and more than that, there's a world of difference between "my opponent tends to use x, so i will bring y" versus "my opponent IS GOING TO USE x, so I will bring y"
@@JohnWittle ah so its differnet than the events i played in back than. Thanks~
Not on topic for the video title, but I really wish I had played Sun and Moon Ubers! I love the different flavors of a tier’s history, and USUM Ubers was the first ladder I ever hit top 10 on. Makes me really excited to be there for all of Scarlet and Violet :)
Gotta start rocking those Flutter Manes and Houndstone in SV Ubers!
Yugioh's time rules used to allow extra turns after round end to conclude games, which caused severe tournament delays & an excessive rule change: now time-out allows only the current phase to conclude the set, which heavily incentivises stalling & makes any game that ends in time feel sour. Some tournaments have tried a soft deadline with rounds ending randomly within a 5min skew of the expected duration. Iirc, i heard that they went ok, but the real problem is that the minimum allowance must be to finish the current turn @ timeout. The old rules allowed WAY too much, 3-5 turns depending on tier, which is a recipe for a delayed tourney. I eagerly await a new rule change with a more moderate policy. Players don't need to be punished for trying to win under sanctioned rules, it was the game's fault for having policies that inhibit timely running of tourneys.
Coming from a smash bros melee perspective I think a lot of the blame also goes to the community for frankly scumming the rules. Smash has a 8 minute time limit and there’s matchups that optimally should go to timeout to maximize your odds of winning but a large portion of the community would rather just battle it out for more entertainment and also community pressure. Imo yugioh players should continue to call out players known for timing out and imo it will happen less. It shouldn’t be celebrated as a “smart” play to time someone out
@@TheCagedK People will absolutely play lame and camp in melee lol
"Clear whyy it is so ridiculous"
As a character in fist of the north star once said: Hey! As long as it works.
I would of called time out on that convenient double kick
I see a lot of people in the comments complaining about the video being long and ramble-y. I’m not sure if that’s the type of content you go for or if this is just an outlier since I’m new to your stuff, but I just wanna say I personally love this sorta stuff! 40+ minute videos explaining things I’m unfamiliar with are a favorite of mine, and I’m definitely gonna sub and keep an eye out for any of your uploads that seem to be in a similar vein to this!
God double kick terak is the funniest thing ever. I completely forgot about it.
that match with bro fist at the end had the same vibes as the dude that mocked DSP while kicking his ass and telling him he's a disgrace to fighting games. top tier 11/10
I'm honestly so impressed I can't get angry. This is probably the programmer in me, but I'm a sucker for creative solutions and you can't deny he's creative.
Honestly it's more logical for me to fault the runners of Pokémon Showdown, even more than the cheater. If they didn't think something as obvious as not having a way to setup your matches for no one to spectate even while their ongoing would eventually cause problems for tournament play-testing, it's so easy to see someone would eventually come and do something in the same lines of what this guy did. That said, it's definitely more sad to the players who are in the receiving end of those who take advantage of the naiveté of the admins than anything.
It’s so impressive that a new stratagem was coined, the mazart of war
Has anyone covered the style/bloo incident in detail? That one was especially wild considering how strong bloo was as a player at the time already.
in detail, kinda not really
NJNP did a few years back
BKC covered it in one of his greatest battles vide which featured one of Bloo/styles battles it was ORAS
Well now it is by bkc
16:05 No! Don’t stop yourself! I really would like to enjoy this video but I guess its just not possible if youre not a competitive pokemon player 😩
Double kick terrakion at 13:00
it's almost like prepping for chess matches. all your games are public so your opponent can theoretically prepare for anything you can throw at them, so it would be a good idea to have multiple teams at the ready for any opponent
Bro I feel so bad for Rohan after those matches
the other day i played a game and then went to spectate another since i was at work and was scared i didnt had time to play a full game, a while after i was able to start a new game and found a guy i just watched, i felt so dirty to destroy him since i knew his team
100% thought this was going to be about Bloo. This was equally spicy.
oh, that'll happen. good to see your name around still btw
I saw the thumbnail and immediately knew you were gonna talk about Mazary
The mic drop ending of this video by bro fist was legendary
I'm here for this Smogon tea you're spilling.
Loving the extra content. You are one of the best, if not the goat of older gens
For all the random Pokemon bans that Smogon was involved in as well as their draconian ban policies, whatever happened at that time was a long time coming.
Mazar
You should really consider writing a script for your videos. It‘s quite hard to follow you, when you‘re not finishing so many sentences. Other than that I found the topic very entertaining!
You mentioned you hoped Gunner could share his thoughts. Well today TH-cam recommended a 4 year old video on Gunner's TH-cam channel where he gives his perspective.
Special mention goes to the user who made the bot, Ac****a!
I think a more simple way to call what Mazar was doing, he essentially had a Walkthrough Guide and knew what pokemon/movesets the "Gym Leader" had. Except in this case said "Gym Leaders" were actual people who had worked hard and built solid teams, instead of just NPCs with no emotions and on a strict set of dialogue. And at this point Mazar has proven he likely won't ever change, if he was unbanned and had another method to somehow cheat that he learned from whatever friends he has left, the pattern has already been shown and if anything odd happens people would absolutely be suspicious.
In defense of the guy, a single double hit move on one of your pokes was important at the time because of that pesky sturdy aron with endeavour and shell bell
This kind of content is great! Please consider making more in the spirit of this!
Honestly I'm just glad this isn't "oooooh a popular vgc player used a generator to make a completely valid team instead of spending hours ofhundreds of dollars grinding stuff!!!" and an ACTUAL cheating scandal lol.
He just changed his name and still plays and prob still cheats and wins tournaments under a completely different name
Would be nice if we could get some insider info from people involved on how they discovered his methods, assume it was just him boasting about it as you said though
Why did he cheat so badly! I cheated in 2008 on Shoddy battle and no one every knew. There's always substantially more cheating than you know about.
I think that the Bloo cheating story may be more worthy of the title of greatest cheating in smogon's history.
What’s the Bloo cheating story?
@@not_relevant1353 long story short a respected mod named Bloo essentially rigged herself wins in a tournament under the guise of a user new to the scene called Style by ghosting her opponents as moderator while battling them. She was eventually discovered and permabanned.
double kick Terrakion still makes me laugh. Like, you can't make this shit up 😆
He last the one game only because he couldn't scout his opponent or just extreme bad luck.
i’m predicting this is about Bloo.
Deserves a video as well
It’s not but the Bloo one is arguably even crazier than this scandal
Bkc can you make a video on why celebi was banned from gsc and why it could come back?
Damn didn't knew how dirty the poke competitive league was or the cheating history in smogon.
Mazar and Bloo--the two most notorious cheaters in Pokémon history. Even Teams Rocket, Aqua, Magma, Plasma, Galactic, Flare, Skull, Yell and Star (as well as Rainbow Rocket) are shaking their heads in shame.
i dont really play tournaments, but cant you bring a new team, then a cheating opponent wouldn’t be able to counter team?
they didn't know their teams were being stolen that's the whole point
@@BKCplaysPokemon i guess what i didnt understand is that a player probably has multiple teams ready to go, so how would the cheater know which team their opponent is gonna select so that the cheater can load up the exact counter team in response?
because players don't have multiple teams ready to go. they test one team in particular that they're going to use, and they test it a lot, which is how he was able to determine it was theirs
just watched gunner rohan’s video and he has each week’s team laid out. so it seems like a player would spend 1 week intensely testing 1 team before using it in the weekly match?
I’M OBSESSED
I'm confused. Mazar was banned, but he's still playing months later in a tournament? (33:16)
He really should not be allowed to do that lmao
Mazar should be perma banned from Smogon as botting is against the TOS. He only got banned from the Smogon forums
Mazar was still not caught for the botting during this period
this was the inbetween period between spl and his ban
Double kick Terrakion LMFAO
I totally got most of the story but this being 45 minutes of a ramble made it so hard to follow I'd love to see a 15 minute scripted version of this that goes into more depth and detail and it would have millions of views guaranteed.
There's already videos like that about this.
@@hind__ by who?
Hey I watched Love Exposure per your recommendation, wow it was seriously amazing.
I did as well, such an incredible movie. It was such a great experience that could only be encapsulated in the medium of a 4 hour movie. The action scenes were funny, the romance scenes were heartwarming, and the drama scenes were full of anguish. I haven't cried watching a film in years but that one just hit different. It's a movie I won't forget about for years.
BKC u are absolutely carrying me thru my WFH days at work w these videos, AMAZING stuff
I'm kinda new to all of this been playing Smogon for a long time but was he scummy because he used Double Kick Terak instead of the standard Close Combat?
Yeah, that is what gave it away, nobody ran double kick terrakion because it gets close combat, which is a much, much better fighting STAB. Close combat is 120 base power and double kick is effectively 60 (it is actually 30 but hits twice). The only reason anyone would be running double kick terrakion is because they knew their opponent would be running a frail pokemon with focus sash/sturdy/etc. so the first hit would break the sash and the second hit would KO in one turn, unless you knew what your opponent was running you would be running some other fighting STAB (if you wanted to avoid the stat drops from close combat, terrakion's learnset also included sacred sword and superpower, which are both much more powerful than double kick
superpower also lowers stats.
I
Lmao I remember this so vividly. You know what cut mazar some slack because no one else thought about that.
This stuff really brings me back to my own Ubers days, lol
I got hit with Focus Sash Forretress vs Reshiram once, lol
You're the man for covering this, for real.
While fairly obvious this was made because he knew something, the prospect of someone bringing Double Kick Terrakion solely because they really hate Smeargle is hilarious to me. -What’s funnier is that this’d probably work as an anti-lead for AG but I’d have to see what low ladder is there-
The thing you don't want to say out loud but we all know it's true is that not all cheating is equal. Not saying we appreciate any of it, but at least with ghosting still literally playing a game of pokemon. It's inherently as fair as any other game of pokemon. I'd compare it to competitive Yu-Gi-Oh. I don't want someone to get a hold of my deck list, but that's also a whole different level than playing a straight illegal Deck with three copies of a limited card.
BKC lore vids 👀 lavos next?!!
😓😢
Which incident? I remember he co-commentated on the classic series vs McMeghan with Blunder on his channel, the one where McM got a 6-0 in g5 after which Lavos made that infamous forum post.
@@johanericsson7309 wait I need to watch that now! I meant the classic McMg reverse sweep sending lavos into the infamous rage
You literally said it yourself that he did it for validation, smog on and all its prestige created this monster
double kick terrakion
lol
lmao
I believe it was discovered because an unrelated third party admitted to cheating with the bot and also had a list of people who used it . That’s just what I heard anyway
23 minutes in and no proof yet of anything... waiting for the ball to drop
Bill Belichick couldn't help himself.
Mazar used Mind Reader
I loved the Double Kick Terrakion. Double Kick is a move that almost no one uses but TTG really showed that with enough skill even these moves can be useful! Kudos to TTG and Mazary for their creative unorthodox set and good for them that they managed to have success with them!
L take. Literally had to cheat for those teams to work.