Not enough people appreciate your work Greg. The amount of time you spend testing all of these things to give to the Miata community is insane. You truly are the Miata Dad.
Since you changed cams a good idea is to check your valve lash again..maybe a valve is staying open and robbing you compression..maybe better start with a compression test..?
classic Greg ignoring the obvious cause of the issue. How many times did you change your drive shaft chasing that vibration before you finally listened to reason and replaced the Diff? The problem is obviously the New Cam and Cam Gears.
The amount of work that went into this video is insane! Well done, no matter what the result was. Good for you for not letting the setbacks stop you from posting this video!
@@TheCarPassionChannel have you thought about the different intakes providing high end HP but at the sacrifice of midrange torque? There's a lot of internet forum hearsay about the construction of the stock intake and it's chambers resonating to provide better torque right around where it's down on your dyno results. Long shot but worth a try?
classic Greg ignoring the obvious cause of the issue. How many times did you change your drive shaft chasing that vibration before you finally listened to reason and replaced the Diff? The problem is obviously the New Cam and Cam Gears.
classic Greg ignoring the obvious cause of the issue. How many times did you change your drive shaft chasing that vibration before you finally listened to reason and replaced the Diff? The problem is obviously the New Cam and Cam Gears.
An increase in peak power at the top is is usually due to more air being flowed into the cylinders and the opposite for bottom end, aka less air mid to low. Intake lobes and Exhaust lobes are different for a reason. The continuous increase past 5200~ rpm would be that Exintake cam swap but only for past that rpm. When you call up a camshaft company like say Comp cams they always ask "what the engine is being used in" some one drag racing where the car only see's top power band rpm will use a different cam rather than some one racing autocross where the power band is more spread out through low-mid to high. I think the camshaft being a exhaust cam with massive duration compared to the intake cam at bottom end, the air is being vacuumed into the cylinder and reverberated or pushed back into the runners at 3.5k to 5.2k from old intake cam. Too much duration and not enough Airspeed velocity to support mid range. My best educated guess. There are more factors but i do not know I am not there. Great video and tuning is a pain, we swap cams on our race cars at least 7 times and dyno them with camshaft and ignition timing changes to find the best combination.
It's a good theory but the fact is the ex intake cam swap is still considered a very mild cam compared to anything in the aftermarket. Like the exintake cam swap isn't going to be anywhere near as aggressive as the most LEAST aggressive cam you could find sold as aftermarket. It still is bearly a difference than the previous cam. It's an upgrade don't get me wrong. But we're talking about a cam profile that's perfectly suitable for his build.
@@Nasonix2 True, but dyno graphs usually dont lie and i mean the difference in mid range for how little power the 1.8 already makes is still something that you can feel from 10ish horsepower on a pull. I am no ways saying buy aftermarket when you can get a exhaust cam cheaply, but there are definitely cam profile differences compared to a mild aftermarket that would have a solid improvement almost full band than what he is experiencing right now with only gains after 5.2k rpm plus room to adjust cam timing and ignition to pick up more. His peak would not be as high but overall would be better. This cam just requires more air mid range. A good porting to clean flash and maybe with an aftermarket intake manifold would definitely bring the exhaust intake cams full potential. But i have not built a 1.8 yet nor played with the head and ports or flowed one but based on the graphs and his problem that last dyno session to this one he only changed the camshaft.
@@Nasonix2 exactly. Although I think it makes the point... Better off to get a regrind to specs you know will work with a bit more lift than stock. If you're going to spend the time and effort to install and fine tune, be nice to have the result
Re-check Valve lash, Miata dad! Re-check Valve lash, Miata dad! Re-check Valve lash, Miata dad! Re-check Valve lash, Miata dad! Re-check Valve lash, Miata dad! Love the video, by the way. That dyno day must have been an incredible amount of work! Props for that!!
Damn Greg, that was some hard work. You should get in touch with Jafromobile - Not a Miata guy, but he's super meticulous about tracking down gremlins. Would be amazing to see the two best hobbyists on YT figure it out! Whatever you do, I wish you the best of luck. Im looking to do all of the bolt-ons on my stock NB at some point, so I really hope you can come up with something good :)
Gotta get on board with the Jafro. If you haven't watched someone dump thousands into a car that "can be totaled if a power steering hose needs replacement", then you haven't lived. Like, story of my life, dude.
classic Greg ignoring the obvious cause of the issue. How many times did you change your drive shaft chasing that vibration before you finally listened to reason and replaced the Diff? The problem is obviously the New Cam and Cam Gears.
@@hunterross9615 you use it to correct power numbers for atmospheric pressure changes due to elevation. Ideally you correct it to the SAE standard and not to fudge bigger peak numbers for your forum signature
@@ElPants21 you shouldn’t correct at all to an SAE standard day (especially with forced induction) if you aren’t just trying to stroke your ego lol, especially with diesel
I admire how much hard work you are doing without ever giving up. It seems that nothing goes without bunch of complications, when I remeber those problems with transmission and drive train you had on your NA . It is incredible how much patience you have.
From a troubleshooting standpoint I think it makes sense to put the stock cams back along with stock cam gears and run it again. Make it as close to your original setup as you can and then go from there.
I'ma laugh if he discovered factual proof the ex-intake cam being power robbery and nobody else knows. Like that'd be great... But I don't think it's the case. I think either two things could be wrong. 1) he didn't try tuning the map differently when it first got back on the dyno to make the same power as before Or 2) the valve lash clearences are opened up since he put the new cam in for some reason. Which would be strange! But worth checking. Should've compression tested when the spark plugs were out.
I sense the disappointment. Lets first say THANKS! Tons of real work.....but you shared real world data and issues. Possibly saving some of us the same problems. THANKS for that too! My moto when working on my Miata is "what did Greg do". I'll wait while you search and figure out where things went awry. Appreciate the effort and your sharing of the disappointment. It's the real deal with no drama or BS. That is why keep coming back.
As a 44 year old dad of a miata ( my 16 year old sons ) I've watched all your videos and can't wait to watch what's next. Some of the best content on the ol tube. Thanks for your nolage, makes me look like a hero to my boy as I'm trying to turn him in to a little bit more of a gear head than computer need ( that's OK also but I'm sure you get i) thanks again....KMFNB
Get him into Tuner Studio or whatever software your preferred aftermarket ECU uses. You can be a computer nerd and gear head. Good on you for getting him started, Miatas are a great learner vehicle for tuning and wrenching.
Wow I’m gonna have to watch this multiple times to absorb all this glorious information and data, thank you so much for putting in all the effort with this testing.
Greg this work is so relevant to my current challenge, your philosophy of creating a you tube diary of Mx5 solution based development is so valuable to our community THANK YOU and yes its 12 months later and people will use this data for years to come. Miata Legend
This is the kind of dedication and attention to detail that helps us out so much! I built my miata based off of the broke & boosted project a few years ago
Awesome video, bummed about the results. I was “pulling” for you. I would leave the adjustable cam gears on but go back to stock intake cam. Tune the gears then dyno and see where you at.
Check compression, i would start there. I -havent watched any other videos of this car so idk what mods been done but check the ignition coil and fuel pump. Maybe check the vakum hose to the fpr, or do a general vakum leak search, with a smoke machine.
He'd know if it was a fuel problem because it would run rich/lean. He had a AFR gauge in the car and a datalogger program on the laptop. It's possible it could be a intermittent misfire problem from a faulty coil pack. I'd say spark plugs but he did swap them. I'm with you on the compression test
I know this video is old but love these tuning videos trying to squeeze the most power out of the car. Shows real results for tuning ideas, what intake designs are best / exhaust , etc.
Always look at the last thing you changed before the problem started.... I’d swap the stock intake cam and gears back in. Are you positive you didn’t accidentally slip the timing belt a tooth on the crank when you swapped the gears in? My ‘99 made 140whp/120tq on that same dyno without variable cam gears, with an MSM intake cam, square top, RB header and J-Bend intake like you showed. Toby put on his velocity stack filter and I put down 143. Good luck finding the issue Greg, and great video as always!
I would like to see the old cam and cam gears reinstalled to see if that is the issue. Seems like the only variable left untouched. I know the cam gears were adjusted their fully range but the lift is still different between the 2 cams so maybe the higher lift of the new cam is actually the culprit of the power loss for some reason?
Power loss guesses: -ExIntake (biggest change and right away power was affected) -ECU stuff: is LTT enabled? (checkbox in MEITE.) I had mine enabled by accident and it tuned me into a hole where the car just smoked and stalled out one morning as if it blew a headgasket. Wiped the LTT table values back to 0 and it was fixed. Also the "Autotune" feature in MEITE. If enabled, it's constantly adjusting your VE table which will affect output. -How does your "Knock Status" value look? You're for sure better at tuning than I am, I'm sure you were looking for knock pulling out final ignition timing advance. -Have you done a rationality check against your wideband (use another known good sensor at same time)? It may be failing and reporting a false AFR. Overall, you powerloss looks consistently down across the torque curve, but it's masked by your higher-flowing components shining through at top-end I think?
I would start with checking the compression. If that's fine then check the valve lash. Of that is okay as well then take the AC belt of and try to spin the compressor and see if it rotates freely. The last thimg that comes to mind would be to check if the timming belt didn't slipped or skipped a tooth on the crank when you were doing the exhintake swap. That's all I can think of as a mechanic. Keep up the good work bro, love your content. Cheers
were you logging your AFR's? all that extra air you're putting in with these mods needs more fuel, and more fuel you may need to change your ignition timing. I would honestly do a one over on the fuel map then the ignition map
Fuel injection require a high pressure to ensure good fuel air mix. This is not the same as air fuel ratio problem as it is how well mixed it is. Clues to this happening are fuel pressure drop under full throttle, intake air direction changes i.e intakes and air filters, but not always. Little to no power gains but doesn't lay down hard on you because the fuel is there just burning slower. And timing advancement. Excessive advanced timing above 36-38 degrees means the flame progression is being hampered. Put a pressure gauge on your fuel rail and if it goes below max set during your run, you need more pump.
You should check your woodruff key on the crank nose! If it's starting to mess up! The pulley and trigger wheel will start to wobble causing some ignition problems! Loss of power through the power band!
first of stellar work on that dyno man, here's an idea from the laws of thermodynamics. If energy is leaking out of that motor it is being converted into either work or heat and since nothing was working... I say look at it with a thermal cam check if something is getting hot. If not, it's prop a tuning thing main suspect that exintanke and cam gear.
I really appreciate the lengths you've gone to in you effort to chase down the loss in power. What sort of weather data do you have. Humidity, air density, and ambient air temperature play a significant role in what numbers you'll end up with on a dyno. If there were big enough differences in the first 137hp run to the run you started with in this video, that could explain the difference. I worked as a tech for over 10 years, and just recently sold my NB (growing a family), so I'm pretty familiar with chasing problems. I would have recommended you start by eliminating any possible variables that could explain the loss in power before you started making changes on the car. That said, I'm still subscribed, love your attitude and content. Keep it up!
Honestly thank you so much for all your work and the very detailed video. I feel like the only thing that I would've done is take my stock cam gears and try them again, just to make sure that whatever happened has nothing to do with the cam gears being different. Maybe try that next time, I mean what do you got to lose but "time" 😄🤷♂️ see what I did there. I can't wait for you to get an NC cuz that's what I have and I would love similar info for my car.
If you return the cams, gears and everything to how it was tuned before this dyno day, see if you can repeat the power you once had. This would be the only way to determine as a matter of fact the new mods have been detrimental. Naturally aspirated tuning is an extremely complicated science and different combinations of things have to be in total harmony to be effective. As an example I live in the UK and a company called Blink Motorsport say early heads actually produce MORE power than the fabled later ones due to port velocity rather than flow. Anyone that wins an mx5 championship in the UK has an engine built by blink. That is how few people can genuinely master the art of maximizing naturally aspirated gains. Bolt on power’ can work to a certain degree but not many people push the limits of that theory as much as you are willing to, so I’m not hugely surprised you had a frustrating day. Big kudos as ever for pumping out the great content as ever, hope you get it spinning nicely soon.
My 1.6 did that too when I had it baselined....gained hp and tq with each pull....I figured if I kept doing pulls, it would eventually break 200whp stock lol
Can you check the baro and temp sensor on the dyno is accurate? Is the dyno ramp rate the same as last time? Is the oil level the same as last time? You could lock out the ign timing and test it under load Compression/leakdown test Is the throttle opening fully, is the manifold pressure at ambient? You might have to put the stock cam back in just to rule it out. You managed to find the drivetrain vibration in the vvt swap, I'm sure you'll find the missing horses.
Yea this feels like the new intake cam not playing well with the old un modified intake cam. Since cams are usually a matched pair to optimize flow and turbulence in and out of the cylinders. Popping the stock intake cam back in with or without the adjustable gears might be the move.
this power loss seems dyno related since its a NA engine did you have pressure and temperature correction on? did you calibrate the car to the dyno again? probably the case of your issues
Thanks for all your hard work man. We really appreciate it. You have become a true Miata whisperer. I’d be curious to see what would happen if you worked for FM and had more resources to just do R&D all the time.
I think you should take a Design of Experiments type approach. From the ASQ website "It allows for multiple input factors to be manipulated, determining their effect on a desired output (response). By manipulating multiple inputs at the same time, DOE can identify important interactions that may be missed when experimenting with one factor at a time. All possible combinations can be investigated (full factorial) or only a portion of the possible combinations (fractional factorial).". Assuming there is no mechanical error... there must be some unforeseen interaction going on with the cams.
Check the compression, the alternator or ac might be causing resistance which is one thing that happened to my friends 1.8. The a can become looked. Also don’t ever put it past a old warn clutch and flywheel. I gained 15hp with a lightweight flywheel and a nice clutch
lovvvin these videos! Swap back to stock cam and gears, confirm it makes more power, borrow the skunk 2 intake manifold from the other miata and TB, see if that gains some power, THEN bring out those chop sticks with adjustable cam gears and valvetrain upgrade, then spinner up to 8k. If the money and time is there, a port/polish head with bigger valves would be fun to test.
As has been said earlier or alluded to, the higher lift cam gave more air volume but lower velocity so less overall air getting in. That's my ill-informed guess at least. Could you measure AFR's during the tune? Try changing back to stock intake cam and re-test. Good luck Greg. Love your channel.
to me the exhintake cam is the issue. lift is not the only thing, duration might be wrong... motor is like an air pump throwing higher lift cam doesnt always make more power, especially on lower rpms. big cams on stock ports, stock valve might be your issue. need a better flowing head or go back to stock cam
I would put the stock intake cam back on and re-dyno to start off. This will be the only way to determine if there is a true engine issue or if it was just the cam gear issue. (Could be off a hair). Compression test, cylinder leakdown test, fuel pressure test, clean injectors/fresh injectors?, fuel filter... weather could be a definite issue if it was more drastic temps and humidity like winter vs summer but I wouldn’t read too far into that.
Like a lot of these other people, I’d question the exhintake mod. If you can, try putting the old cam back in and see if you can get that power back. Either way, love to see you doing this. Respect for how much work you’ll put in for a couple of horsepower. Can’t wait for the go fast juice!
Love these dyno vids! Secretly I was hoping you’d introduce a “car passion intake kit” using the unicorn intake as a basis of design! Keep up the awesome content!
I suggest you to start checking and trying te only mods that you did between both Dyno days. The exintake and cam gears. Since you play with several angles on both camshafts it shouldn't be a problem on it. So will be very interesting if you could swap to the OEM intake camshaft and compare the results. Probably you should be able to see this difference on Virtual Dyno if you don't want to waste another Dyno day.
Temperature, humidity, gas, valve lash. Throttle position? Easy to check and definitely could be goofing stuff. Wheel weight change, if you did rotors or wheels and tires maybe the weight changed? Only thing else would be do a compression and leak down test. Good luck dad!
double checking all the sensors, Crank sensor/Cam sensor and temp-sensors. Then perhaps verifying the positioning on the cams/cam gears.. also different combinations of timing / overlap will give different dynamic compression i guess ?. Did you check if the AFR's followed the power-creeping that you saw? (same with ignition faults)..
Do you log ambient air pressure & temp & humidity? Do you log fuel pressure and spark time and MAP? There are so many variables outside of your intake and fuel that you can expect variations on every dyno run even tyre pressure and how tight the car is strapped down will give you different numbers. Concentrate on the shape of the curve instead of the number and the car will be more enjoyable to drive 👍
I would do a leak down test to see if a valve isn’t sealing as well or I would check to see if you have a leaky injector. Actually you know what I would throw a vacuum gauge on that thing. That will test pretty much all those things
Another great video!! I'm certain you'll find out the problem and make even more power. I love the idea of building a NA engine for these cars when you already have a turbo one, congratz for all the work.
This time we should talk about dynamic C/R, changing intake cam timing effect the dynamic C/R of the engine, so, this is good if u increase static C/R, if this modification is made without any static C/R increase, a little part of air will escape from the intake valves due to the increase of cam duration, wasting air to burn, so you will need to advance it. We are not talking about mega duration cam's or extreme lifts, so we can luckly tune them, but in Mazda the did it properly. It is clear (20:05)how much some degree changes the N/A engine's attitude, tired on low rpm , but explisve on high. After that, when do u put a ITB on it? It will help on ramjet effects, I'm planning to do that. Thanks Master as always. Bye bye
I'd say try stock cam gears with the exhitake to see what that does.. if nothing stock intake cam... Also, long shot, but maybe a wheel bearing is letting go ? They can suck a ton of power if they are dragging and overheating
As always awesome, I would definitely try putting the stock Intake cam on to see the results, also would be interesting to see how the skunk2 intake manifold performs with and without its throttle body
rewatching it there is huge hesitation to start DEFINATELY increase the compression ratio cause with the new setup you are at least 1-2 bar or 15-30 psi lower from the previous cam. new thinner gasket yesterday not tomorrow
Hmmm why would it make less power?.... This mod has been done plenty of times (on NAs at least) and has documented gains in performance so I think ruling out the cam specs are fine. So where to look then... Valve lash issue? ignition timing issue? Potentially the crank gear slipped a tooth? Cam sensor not reading new cam gear properly? Maybe Ex cam was installed improperly on intake cam gear? I think like some others have mentioned a compression check would be a good place to start. Would rule out valve train and cam for sure. Looking forward to you figuring out this bug. My mind want's to wander towards if the crank gear slipped a tooth somehow during the cam install. But I am the paranoid type and worry that it'll be the job I want to do least that's the issue lol.
I appreciate all your work Miata Dad but I do believe what the main problem is with the exintake swap that you drilled the FMCG wrong or just barley off and it’s throwing the power in different places on the graph whenever your doing your tests of cam timing and that you need to revisit the ex intake another time or get the KA injections cam gear ⚙️ for now tho I would put the stock cam and gears and retest to see gains
Interesting initial result. I have read opinion that exhintake is useless on its own and MUST be paired with adjustable cam gears to make more power than stock. Everything I see about these engines naturally aspirated leaves me impressed how much Mazda wrung out of the B6 and BP from factory while still being really reliable.
Alright I did the exhintake swap and ended up removing it. The power band wasn’t ideal in my opinion, felt like a loss at low end and maybe a slight bit of top end it was so little I couldn’t really tell. But honestly my car runs the best with the stock cams. With the exhintake it just felt unhappy. Made about 145hp according to virtual dyno. Bpo5, skunk 2 manifold, megasquirt pnp2, similar intake setup to 949, e85, stock exhaust manifold and a rb exhaust. My motor is built but it is stock compression and stock head.
![WELP I Think I Found The Problem With The NB Miata... [Project 2SJ Ep13]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/bZXVOvWU6eU/mqdefault.jpg)
![WELP I Think I Found The Problem With The NB Miata... [Project 2SJ Ep13]](/img/tr.png)
![Dyno Testing 8 Of The Most Popular Mods For Miatas! [Project 2SJ Ep8]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/3dYh__2z2H0/mqdefault.jpg)
Not enough people appreciate your work Greg. The amount of time you spend testing all of these things to give to the Miata community is insane. You truly are the Miata Dad.
Fr I love watching these videos I learn so much! I got my Miata running cause if these videos 😆
Craip is the best Miata Dad we could ever wish for...
@@dumbestoyster Crepe? Is that a new one? 😂
I literally think this evey time I watch a video like I'm so mad he isn't famous lol
In deed. For all around the world
Since you changed cams a good idea is to check your valve lash again..maybe a valve is staying open and robbing you compression..maybe better start with a compression test..?
+1 I was just going to post this same comment.
+2 this
@@nzpork1 shit i posted before i saw your comment. I agree, check clearances/lash
classic Greg ignoring the obvious cause of the issue. How many times did you change your drive shaft chasing that vibration before you finally listened to reason and replaced the Diff?
The problem is obviously the New Cam and Cam Gears.
@@erasmus_locke lol wrong
throw your old cam and cam gear back on and see what happens.
This!!!
I have no idea why didnt he do that already
Is he using an exhaust cam as an intake cam??
@@jamesbadham3872 Yes.
Yeah, this might be the issue.
The amount of work that went into this video is insane! Well done, no matter what the result was. Good for you for not letting the setbacks stop you from posting this video!
Tried to make the best out of it, haha
@@TheCarPassionChannel have you thought about the different intakes providing high end HP but at the sacrifice of midrange torque? There's a lot of internet forum hearsay about the construction of the stock intake and it's chambers resonating to provide better torque right around where it's down on your dyno results. Long shot but worth a try?
classic Greg ignoring the obvious cause of the issue. How many times did you change your drive shaft chasing that vibration before you finally listened to reason and replaced the Diff?
The problem is obviously the New Cam and Cam Gears.
@@TheCarPassionChannel check your electrical system
Nobody more passionate, persistent, and knowledgable about miatas than you Greg. I'm sure you'll find that power gremlin!
classic Greg ignoring the obvious cause of the issue. How many times did you change your drive shaft chasing that vibration before you finally listened to reason and replaced the Diff?
The problem is obviously the New Cam and Cam Gears.
Was your right leg 15% more swole the first day?
An increase in peak power at the top is is usually due to more air being flowed into the cylinders and the opposite for bottom end, aka less air mid to low. Intake lobes and Exhaust lobes are different for a reason. The continuous increase past 5200~ rpm would be that Exintake cam swap but only for past that rpm. When you call up a camshaft company like say Comp cams they always ask "what the engine is being used in" some one drag racing where the car only see's top power band rpm will use a different cam rather than some one racing autocross where the power band is more spread out through low-mid to high. I think the camshaft being a exhaust cam with massive duration compared to the intake cam at bottom end, the air is being vacuumed into the cylinder and reverberated or pushed back into the runners at 3.5k to 5.2k from old intake cam. Too much duration and not enough Airspeed velocity to support mid range. My best educated guess. There are more factors but i do not know I am not there. Great video and tuning is a pain, we swap cams on our race cars at least 7 times and dyno them with camshaft and ignition timing changes to find the best combination.
It's a good theory but the fact is the ex intake cam swap is still considered a very mild cam compared to anything in the aftermarket. Like the exintake cam swap isn't going to be anywhere near as aggressive as the most LEAST aggressive cam you could find sold as aftermarket. It still is bearly a difference than the previous cam. It's an upgrade don't get me wrong. But we're talking about a cam profile that's perfectly suitable for his build.
@@Nasonix2 True, but dyno graphs usually dont lie and i mean the difference in mid range for how little power the 1.8 already makes is still something that you can feel from 10ish horsepower on a pull. I am no ways saying buy aftermarket when you can get a exhaust cam cheaply, but there are definitely cam profile differences compared to a mild aftermarket that would have a solid improvement almost full band than what he is experiencing right now with only gains after 5.2k rpm plus room to adjust cam timing and ignition to pick up more. His peak would not be as high but overall would be better. This cam just requires more air mid range. A good porting to clean flash and maybe with an aftermarket intake manifold would definitely bring the exhaust intake cams full potential. But i have not built a 1.8 yet nor played with the head and ports or flowed one but based on the graphs and his problem that last dyno session to this one he only changed the camshaft.
@@Nasonix2 exactly. Although I think it makes the point... Better off to get a regrind to specs you know will work with a bit more lift than stock. If you're going to spend the time and effort to install and fine tune, be nice to have the result
Re-check Valve lash, Miata dad!
Re-check Valve lash, Miata dad!
Re-check Valve lash, Miata dad!
Re-check Valve lash, Miata dad!
Re-check Valve lash, Miata dad!
Love the video, by the way. That dyno day must have been an incredible amount of work! Props for that!!
Same thing with his last dyno day too lol the last one he was changing out hot headers and what not on the dyno lol to do comparisons
Thanks again Cregg, we really don’t deserve this level of detail
Damn Greg, that was some hard work. You should get in touch with Jafromobile - Not a Miata guy, but he's super meticulous about tracking down gremlins. Would be amazing to see the two best hobbyists on YT figure it out! Whatever you do, I wish you the best of luck. Im looking to do all of the bolt-ons on my stock NB at some point, so I really hope you can come up with something good :)
Gotta get on board with the Jafro.
If you haven't watched someone dump thousands into a car that "can be totaled if a power steering hose needs replacement", then you haven't lived. Like, story of my life, dude.
@@joshuacraven6206 Donuts Moneypit has nothing on Jafro HAHA! How about some... GLYPTOL COATED VALVE COVERS.
@@hellfireclub86 I could watch that man paint the inside of an engine all day... he truly is my hero!
classic Greg ignoring the obvious cause of the issue. How many times did you change your drive shaft chasing that vibration before you finally listened to reason and replaced the Diff?
The problem is obviously the New Cam and Cam Gears.
+1 for a Jafro collaboration!
Was the DA very different or was the dyno recalibrated?
Gonna sound kinda rookie, but what do you mean by DA
Density altitude
@@hunterross9615 you use it to correct power numbers for atmospheric pressure changes due to elevation. Ideally you correct it to the SAE standard and not to fudge bigger peak numbers for your forum signature
@@ElPants21 you shouldn’t correct at all to an SAE standard day (especially with forced induction) if you aren’t just trying to stroke your ego lol, especially with diesel
Try the stock intake cam again. It might just be that the added lift from the new cam messes up your exhaust scavenging
I admire how much hard work you are doing without ever giving up. It seems that nothing goes without bunch of complications, when I remeber those problems with transmission and drive train you had on your NA .
It is incredible how much patience you have.
From a troubleshooting standpoint I think it makes sense to put the stock cams back along with stock cam gears and run it again. Make it as close to your original setup as you can and then go from there.
How was the ambient air temperature and humidity? I wonder if it was a bit cooler with less humidity. Great video anyway!
There's a good chance it was corrected for standard temperatures and pressures. Any decent dyno will correct for STP.
@@xampx2k7 I agree, it’s also a potential mistake someone can make though if they set it up incorrectly though
Thanks for the Science dad! This makes us feel a bit more accomplished for our 150whp on a Land & Sea dyno (reads low like a mustang dyno).
Yay yay
I would put stock cams/gears back in and see if you gain power
I think that exhaust cam and gear is where all your problems are coming from, graeg
I'ma laugh if he discovered factual proof the ex-intake cam being power robbery and nobody else knows. Like that'd be great... But I don't think it's the case.
I think either two things could be wrong.
1) he didn't try tuning the map differently when it first got back on the dyno to make the same power as before
Or 2) the valve lash clearences are opened up since he put the new cam in for some reason. Which would be strange! But worth checking. Should've compression tested when the spark plugs were out.
Test just the Ex-intake cam on a stock engine.
There are enough variables that the slight change in lift may be difficult to tune for.
I sense the disappointment. Lets first say THANKS! Tons of real work.....but you shared real world data and issues. Possibly saving some of us the same problems. THANKS for that too!
My moto when working on my Miata is "what did Greg do". I'll wait while you search and figure out where things went awry. Appreciate the effort and your sharing of the disappointment. It's the real deal with no drama or BS. That is why keep coming back.
As a 44 year old dad of a miata ( my 16 year old sons ) I've watched all your videos and can't wait to watch what's next. Some of the best content on the ol tube. Thanks for your nolage, makes me look like a hero to my boy as I'm trying to turn him in to a little bit more of a gear head than computer need ( that's OK also but I'm sure you get i) thanks again....KMFNB
Get him into Tuner Studio or whatever software your preferred aftermarket ECU uses. You can be a computer nerd and gear head. Good on you for getting him started, Miatas are a great learner vehicle for tuning and wrenching.
@@foamdataservices Thanks for the good wishes, the wife and I are blessed.
Wow I’m gonna have to watch this multiple times to absorb all this glorious information and data, thank you so much for putting in all the effort with this testing.
Greg this work is so relevant to my current challenge, your philosophy of creating a you tube diary of Mx5 solution based development is so valuable to our community THANK YOU and yes its 12 months later and people will use this data for years to come. Miata Legend
This is the kind of dedication and attention to detail that helps us out so much! I built my miata based off of the broke & boosted project a few years ago
I think this a very honest understanding of engine tuning. Sometimes it works perfectly, sometimes it doesn't, that's part of the game!
I'm just gonna hit like, then watch the video!
Awesome video, bummed about the results. I was “pulling” for you. I would leave the adjustable cam gears on but go back to stock intake cam. Tune the gears then dyno and see where you at.
On that struggle bus all day. My heart goes out to you. This is great exposure that not every dyno day is just 20 second clips of power pulls.
Greg, this series on the dyno rips so hard! Love to see the results, good or bad! Great info, man. All very enlightening. Cheers!
Check compression, i would start there. I -havent watched any other videos of this car so idk what mods been done but check the ignition coil and fuel pump. Maybe check the vakum hose to the fpr, or do a general vakum leak search, with a smoke machine.
He'd know if it was a fuel problem because it would run rich/lean. He had a AFR gauge in the car and a datalogger program on the laptop.
It's possible it could be a intermittent misfire problem from a faulty coil pack. I'd say spark plugs but he did swap them.
I'm with you on the compression test
Did you try adding stickers?
Really enjoyed the video! Informative but not boring at all!
I know this video is old but love these tuning videos trying to squeeze the most power out of the car. Shows real results for tuning ideas, what intake designs are best / exhaust , etc.
Always look at the last thing you changed before the problem started.... I’d swap the stock intake cam and gears back in. Are you positive you didn’t accidentally slip the timing belt a tooth on the crank when you swapped the gears in? My ‘99 made 140whp/120tq on that same dyno without variable cam gears, with an MSM intake cam, square top, RB header and J-Bend intake like you showed. Toby put on his velocity stack filter and I put down 143. Good luck finding the issue Greg, and great video as always!
The day we have all been waiting for boys!! ✊🏽📈
Your channel has the best content on TH-cam
I would like to see the old cam and cam gears reinstalled to see if that is the issue. Seems like the only variable left untouched. I know the cam gears were adjusted their fully range but the lift is still different between the 2 cams so maybe the higher lift of the new cam is actually the culprit of the power loss for some reason?
Power loss guesses:
-ExIntake (biggest change and right away power was affected)
-ECU stuff: is LTT enabled? (checkbox in MEITE.) I had mine enabled by accident and it tuned me into a hole where the car just smoked and stalled out one morning as if it blew a headgasket. Wiped the LTT table values back to 0 and it was fixed. Also the "Autotune" feature in MEITE. If enabled, it's constantly adjusting your VE table which will affect output.
-How does your "Knock Status" value look? You're for sure better at tuning than I am, I'm sure you were looking for knock pulling out final ignition timing advance.
-Have you done a rationality check against your wideband (use another known good sensor at same time)? It may be failing and reporting a false AFR.
Overall, you powerloss looks consistently down across the torque curve, but it's masked by your higher-flowing components shining through at top-end I think?
I would start with checking the compression. If that's fine then check the valve lash. Of that is okay as well then take the AC belt of and try to spin the compressor and see if it rotates freely. The last thimg that comes to mind would be to check if the timming belt didn't slipped or skipped a tooth on the crank when you were doing the exhintake swap. That's all I can think of as a mechanic. Keep up the good work bro, love your content. Cheers
were you logging your AFR's? all that extra air you're putting in with these mods needs more fuel, and more fuel you may need to change your ignition timing. I would honestly do a one over on the fuel map then the ignition map
Fuel injection require a high pressure to ensure good fuel air mix. This is not the same as air fuel ratio problem as it is how well mixed it is. Clues to this happening are fuel pressure drop under full throttle, intake air direction changes i.e intakes and air filters, but not always. Little to no power gains but doesn't lay down hard on you because the fuel is there just burning slower. And timing advancement. Excessive advanced timing above 36-38 degrees means the flame progression is being hampered. Put a pressure gauge on your fuel rail and if it goes below max set during your run, you need more pump.
You should check your woodruff key on the crank nose! If it's starting to mess up! The pulley and trigger wheel will start to wobble causing some ignition problems! Loss of power through the power band!
first of stellar work on that dyno man, here's an idea from the laws of thermodynamics. If energy is leaking out of that motor it is being converted into either work or heat and since nothing was working... I say look at it with a thermal cam check if something is getting hot. If not, it's prop a tuning thing main suspect that exintanke and cam gear.
I really appreciate the lengths you've gone to in you effort to chase down the loss in power. What sort of weather data do you have. Humidity, air density, and ambient air temperature play a significant role in what numbers you'll end up with on a dyno. If there were big enough differences in the first 137hp run to the run you started with in this video, that could explain the difference. I worked as a tech for over 10 years, and just recently sold my NB (growing a family), so I'm pretty familiar with chasing problems. I would have recommended you start by eliminating any possible variables that could explain the loss in power before you started making changes on the car. That said, I'm still subscribed, love your attitude and content. Keep it up!
Honestly thank you so much for all your work and the very detailed video.
I feel like the only thing that I would've done is take my stock cam gears and try them again, just to make sure that whatever happened has nothing to do with the cam gears being different. Maybe try that next time, I mean what do you got to lose but "time" 😄🤷♂️ see what I did there.
I can't wait for you to get an NC cuz that's what I have and I would love similar info for my car.
If you return the cams, gears and everything to how it was tuned before this dyno day, see if you can repeat the power you once had. This would be the only way to determine as a matter of fact the new mods have been detrimental. Naturally aspirated tuning is an extremely complicated science and different combinations of things have to be in total harmony to be effective. As an example I live in the UK and a company called Blink Motorsport say early heads actually produce MORE power than the fabled later ones due to port velocity rather than flow. Anyone that wins an mx5 championship in the UK has an engine built by blink. That is how few people can genuinely master the art of maximizing naturally aspirated gains. Bolt on power’ can work to a certain degree but not many people push the limits of that theory as much as you are willing to, so I’m not hugely surprised you had a frustrating day. Big kudos as ever for pumping out the great content as ever, hope you get it spinning nicely soon.
In short: velocity > flow
Nice video as always. I like the NB series as it shows there are significant power gains with bolt ons. And they’re not that expensive yet.
Will you testing Head Skimming ? Thanks
My 1.6 did that too when I had it baselined....gained hp and tq with each pull....I figured if I kept doing pulls, it would eventually break 200whp stock lol
Can you check the baro and temp sensor on the dyno is accurate?
Is the dyno ramp rate the same as last time?
Is the oil level the same as last time?
You could lock out the ign timing and test it under load
Compression/leakdown test
Is the throttle opening fully, is the manifold pressure at ambient?
You might have to put the stock cam back in just to rule it out.
You managed to find the drivetrain vibration in the vvt swap, I'm sure you'll find the missing horses.
Miata Dad uploads always make my day.
Yea this feels like the new intake cam not playing well with the old un modified intake cam. Since cams are usually a matched pair to optimize flow and turbulence in and out of the cylinders. Popping the stock intake cam back in with or without the adjustable gears might be the move.
Thanks for the Metal Gear Solid alert sound at 10:48. 🤜👍👍
+1 for checking the DA between the 2 dyno days
this power loss seems dyno related since its a NA engine did you have pressure and temperature correction on? did you calibrate the car to the dyno again? probably the case of your issues
Once again, helping us MX5 owners out. Love all the content, keep it up man!!
Man youtube didnt even notify me this video came out!
I'm just now finding it.
Thanks for all your hard work man. We really appreciate it. You have become a true Miata whisperer. I’d be curious to see what would happen if you worked for FM and had more resources to just do R&D all the time.
I think you should take a Design of Experiments type approach. From the ASQ website "It allows for multiple input factors to be manipulated, determining their effect on a desired output (response). By manipulating multiple inputs at the same time, DOE can identify important interactions that may be missed when experimenting with one factor at a time. All possible combinations can be investigated (full factorial) or only a portion of the possible combinations (fractional factorial).". Assuming there is no mechanical error... there must be some unforeseen interaction going on with the cams.
Check the compression, the alternator or ac might be causing resistance which is one thing that happened to my friends 1.8. The a can become looked. Also don’t ever put it past a old warn clutch and flywheel. I gained 15hp with a lightweight flywheel and a nice clutch
lovvvin these videos! Swap back to stock cam and gears, confirm it makes more power, borrow the skunk 2 intake manifold from the other miata and TB, see if that gains some power, THEN bring out those chop sticks with adjustable cam gears and valvetrain upgrade, then spinner up to 8k. If the money and time is there, a port/polish head with bigger valves would be fun to test.
As has been said earlier or alluded to, the higher lift cam gave more air volume but lower velocity so less overall air getting in. That's my ill-informed guess at least. Could you measure AFR's during the tune? Try changing back to stock intake cam and re-test. Good luck Greg. Love your channel.
That's just awesome Greg! I admire your dedication and the effort you put into this.
to me the exhintake cam is the issue. lift is not the only thing, duration might be wrong... motor is like an air pump throwing higher lift cam doesnt always make more power, especially on lower rpms. big cams on stock ports, stock valve might be your issue. need a better flowing head or go back to stock cam
I would start by checking valve lash and doing a compression test. If those are good you could swap the cams and see if you get your power back.
I would put the stock intake cam back on and re-dyno to start off. This will be the only way to determine if there is a true engine issue or if it was just the cam gear issue. (Could be off a hair). Compression test, cylinder leakdown test, fuel pressure test, clean injectors/fresh injectors?, fuel filter... weather could be a definite issue if it was more drastic temps and humidity like winter vs summer but I wouldn’t read too far into that.
Like a lot of these other people, I’d question the exhintake mod. If you can, try putting the old cam back in and see if you can get that power back. Either way, love to see you doing this. Respect for how much work you’ll put in for a couple of horsepower. Can’t wait for the go fast juice!
Can you run a square top on a stock 99 1.8 or will it throw a fault up was thinking of putting one on mine
The experience your gaining is far more valuable than all the heerspeers. You going to be THE go to guy for miatas.
Love these dyno vids! Secretly I was hoping you’d introduce a “car passion intake kit” using the unicorn intake as a basis of design! Keep up the awesome content!
We don't have a ton of data to go off of but AFR or even your O2 voltage would show a difference for fueling.
You're still a winner Greg. Thanks for the video. Hi Toby
Dude... Feel for you my friend.. Nothing more frustrating than putting in loads of work for little gain.. ♥️ Chin up 🤗
I suggest you to start checking and trying te only mods that you did between both Dyno days. The exintake and cam gears. Since you play with several angles on both camshafts it shouldn't be a problem on it. So will be very interesting if you could swap to the OEM intake camshaft and compare the results. Probably you should be able to see this difference on Virtual Dyno if you don't want to waste another Dyno day.
Love my short 90 intake. So much space on the exhaust side
Temperature, humidity, gas, valve lash.
Throttle position? Easy to check and definitely could be goofing stuff.
Wheel weight change, if you did rotors or wheels and tires maybe the weight changed?
Only thing else would be do a compression and leak down test. Good luck dad!
double checking all the sensors, Crank sensor/Cam sensor and temp-sensors. Then perhaps verifying the positioning on the cams/cam gears.. also different combinations of timing / overlap will give different dynamic compression i guess ?. Did you check if the AFR's followed the power-creeping that you saw? (same with ignition faults)..
Thank you so much for putting in the work for all of us!
Checked the base timing? Maybe a the crank or cam angle sensor moved. I remeber reading some people would move it to advance stock timing.
You should check valve clearance. It could be keeping valves open if its much too tight. You'll see all your power again!
You're the greatest, Greg. Getting so inspired for my NB.
Looks like the intake manifold peaks around 6500, so a shorter runner manifold and a higher rev limit would take advantage of those cams/gears
DRIVETRAIN, DRIVETRAIN, DRIVETRAIN. Check for drivetrain loses, fluids and bearings. Any new vibrations since the 1st dyno session?
Do you log ambient air pressure & temp & humidity?
Do you log fuel pressure and spark time and MAP?
There are so many variables outside of your intake and fuel that you can expect variations on every dyno run even tyre pressure and how tight the car is strapped down will give you different numbers.
Concentrate on the shape of the curve instead of the number and the car will be more enjoyable to drive 👍
Nice work Greg, keep at it I know you will find the answer!
I would do a leak down test to see if a valve isn’t sealing as well or I would check to see if you have a leaky injector. Actually you know what I would throw a vacuum gauge on that thing. That will test pretty much all those things
Another great video!! I'm certain you'll find out the problem and make even more power. I love the idea of building a NA engine for these cars when you already have a turbo one, congratz for all the work.
Ayyy! Love the dyno videos!
Did you watch the oil temps? A 10 degree difference can easily affect your power by like 5% or more.
This time we should talk about dynamic C/R, changing intake cam timing effect the dynamic C/R of the engine, so, this is good if u increase static C/R, if this modification is made without any static C/R increase, a little part of air will escape from the intake valves due to the increase of cam duration, wasting air to burn, so you will need to advance it. We are not talking about mega duration cam's or extreme lifts, so we can luckly tune them, but in Mazda the did it properly. It is clear (20:05)how much some degree changes the N/A engine's attitude, tired on low rpm , but explisve on high. After that, when do u put a ITB on it? It will help on ramjet effects, I'm planning to do that.
Thanks Master as always.
Bye bye
I'd say try stock cam gears with the exhitake to see what that does.. if nothing stock intake cam... Also, long shot, but maybe a wheel bearing is letting go ? They can suck a ton of power if they are dragging and overheating
As always awesome, I would definitely try putting the stock Intake cam on to see the results, also would be interesting to see how the skunk2 intake manifold performs with and without its throttle body
With the bigger cam maybe injector timing needs a tweak or compression test or air/fuel
rewatching it there is huge hesitation to start DEFINATELY increase the compression ratio cause with the new setup you are at least 1-2 bar or 15-30 psi lower from the previous cam. new thinner gasket yesterday not tomorrow
omg the price is right sound with the dyno sheet had me dying. I cried.
Hmmm why would it make less power?.... This mod has been done plenty of times (on NAs at least) and has documented gains in performance so I think ruling out the cam specs are fine. So where to look then...
Valve lash issue?
ignition timing issue?
Potentially the crank gear slipped a tooth?
Cam sensor not reading new cam gear properly?
Maybe Ex cam was installed improperly on intake cam gear?
I think like some others have mentioned a compression check would be a good place to start. Would rule out valve train and cam for sure. Looking forward to you figuring out this bug. My mind want's to wander towards if the crank gear slipped a tooth somehow during the cam install. But I am the paranoid type and worry that it'll be the job I want to do least that's the issue lol.
I appreciate all your work Miata Dad but I do believe what the main problem is with the exintake swap that you drilled the FMCG wrong or just barley off and it’s throwing the power in different places on the graph whenever your doing your tests of cam timing and that you need to revisit the ex intake another time or get the KA injections cam gear ⚙️ for now tho I would put the stock cam and gears and retest to see gains
Interesting initial result. I have read opinion that exhintake is useless on its own and MUST be paired with adjustable cam gears to make more power than stock. Everything I see about these engines naturally aspirated leaves me impressed how much Mazda wrung out of the B6 and BP from factory while still being really reliable.
Alright I did the exhintake swap and ended up removing it. The power band wasn’t ideal in my opinion, felt like a loss at low end and maybe a slight bit of top end it was so little I couldn’t really tell. But honestly my car runs the best with the stock cams. With the exhintake it just felt unhappy. Made about 145hp according to virtual dyno. Bpo5, skunk 2 manifold, megasquirt pnp2, similar intake setup to 949, e85, stock exhaust manifold and a rb exhaust. My motor is built but it is stock compression and stock head.
I would check the oil level and also change it just to be safe if the oil is low it might cause increase friction and kill some power