Maybe you can try giving the engine's ignition some tune and more adjustment to the carburetor, maybe that would make more power. If not..... Supercharge it. Either way it will make more power 😂 and you know how they say. More power = more entertainment.
@@TechTonic420 nah the ignition system is spot on with the ECU I fully tuned it, the carburetor however is a different story. I have something much better in mind
@@WarpedYT increasing the compression ratio? Cause I saw the video on which you took the engine apart. Also I hope you can find something that can replace the piston rings and the head gaskets.
@@neo1231 yeah. all cylinders firing with proper timing makes this actually run good. NGL i was dissapoint with the out of the box performance. you coudld hear it not running properly. Now with this ecu, this actually sounds like v12
@@Fred_the_1996I don't think it's the strength of the spark I think it's more the timing, like I said in the video that ignition box is junk, wait till you see what I have in store for the next one, I have a couple other videos in between but I'm trying to pump out more content now So it shouldn't be much longer.
The difference between ECUs is insane. That junk supplied with the engine should be a point of shame for the manufacturers. These engines aint cheep and it never sounded anything but weazy. After the transplant...its a beast.
But the difference is that ECU wouldn’t let it over-rev and destroy the engine. For 99% of owners who want to fire it up and give it a run and show their buddies it’s fine. The motor isn’t making anywhere near its full capability, look at the exhaust ports, nothing is polished or ported, they’re tiny. I’d bet the inlet is exactly the same, and the runout on the crank is crazy, probably just running a brass bush in the back not a true bearing, they’re built to a price.
@@Dave5843-d9m exactly You hit it right on the money, when you scalp things down the parasitic losses are huge compared to a full size,. That explains it perfectly
I still can't believe that i told my old job to start making these (mini motors) back in 2006 and they laughed and said no one would buy them... now I can watch a ten or 20 videos about them... I should have trusted my gut
There were several ideas I thought of over the years, just to see someone else make them. Hope you act on your next one and good luck. I’m rootin’ for ya!
I was a mechanic for years and I always thought these were more a show piece to be started every so often and never used in anger, so thank you for going for it and effectively wrecking it for our pleasure! Now I really want to see what damage revving it has done.
They make really strong nitro engines that make more power for a lot less money. Granted it’s really cool engineering to make an overhead cam v12 that small.
Yeah I am hoping that was the whole point of running it like that. He wants to get a crappy baseline so his rebuild video with a turbo will really turn some heads, or bend them? Hmm.
Yeah, a conversation piece -- it's just SO LITTLE power and such low RPM for a 12 cylinder 50c engine. 1.25 HP? Regular 50cc single cylinder scooters make 3-4 HP.. In 1966 Honda was racing a 50cc parallel twin that made 13.7 HP at 21500 RPM and lasted long enough to do I think a 50-100 km long race. The same year the Honda RC166 6-cylinder 250cc made 60 HP at 18000 RPM. Modern Honda 250cc 4 stroke single-cylinder CRF250R make 40 HP at 14000 RPM. You'd think a properly engineered 50cc V12 should be able to do 30,000 RPM! 9000 is just nothing.
@@MickeyMishra just get an RC nitro engine, they make more power while weighing a fraction the amount. They aren't desk toys like this pile of junk, they're meant to actually GO FAST
Now I still agree that it is cheap Chinese junk but, to be fair clearances at this scale would be nearly impossible to get right. Its difficult at full scale for real engines. My guess is that these little engines would never last in something like an RC that gets used regularly.
Small engines suffer because they have very high friction to overcome. This suggests that you disassemble the engine, examine each part for wear, and then replace all of them with new parts that have been balanced and blue printed.
I'm thinking roller bearings for everything would really make this engine worthwhile. But getting tolerance for something like that would be real challenge.
That's exactly what I'm going to do I'm going to make This engine Chinese American lol. I'm going to do that in the next video info with this one. I have a couple videos in between the next video I have a Harley video coming up, but after that I got one more and then I'm going to do the tear down
4:30 That's how I remember testing my first real engine for my first car back in 1990 with my father. Just a rebuilt engine on the garage floor with nothing but headers sticking up and back. No radiator just filled the block with coolant and enough gas in a soda can to fire it up for a minute. Was one of the coolest moments of my childhood.
@@ghost.of.aleksz.salad. You put water in the water jacket of the block and seal it. It's enough to cool the engine for a few minutes as that is how the engine warms up anyway, with a closed loop until the thermostat opens and the system runs open from the expansion tank.
My Dad was on the 1973 'Miss Pay-n-Pak' hydroplane team. Alissons and Merlins as far as the eye could see back at the 'hangar'. My job was replacing the tachometers on these huge engines...it was the kind of job you gave a kid to keep him out of the way for a few hours. They had a static-test cell for the engines...a huge concrete and rebar fly-wheel kept these things from blowing up. Nothing like the sound of a V-12, indoors...
That ECU made a huge difference in the way it ran. Kudos to you for having the patience to wire that in. I feel like tuned headers can improve the power band. And yes of course, turbo or SC.
N/A these have insane potential its already running nitro methane. It needs serious head work. Valve size, shape, material. Porting. Springs. Cams etc. There was once a man who was doing this in Germany with a flow bench..Many years of experience with exotic materials but unfortunately hes in terrible heath and never continued.
Great work. I made a similar dyno for aero engines and found it needed a sponge rubber pad between the scales and torque lever. Without it the torsional vibration plays havoc with the load cell in the scales. My readings went way higher with more even consistency after adding that cushion into the coupling.
Quite a few people have made contraptions that they think are antigravity machines, solely because scales tend to under-read when they're weighing something that's vibrating.
The fact that you can hold the throttle wide-open and the engine basically self governs itself, tells you that the airflow through the engine is highly restricted. The porting in these doesn’t really scale down compared to a real size engine. They’re actually quite restricted port wise in reality with the proper porting, it should make quite a bit of power theoretically as long as you can have an ignition system that will match the RPMs. As you can see most of that ignitions that they come with really aren’t up to the task.
actually i forgot to include the clip but i rev limited it with the ECU to 9000 so I could focus on only the dyvo pull, in all the future videos im going to try and include all those points, but yeah the airflow is restricted none the less
Then one needs to consider the cam as well. These scaled down engines have a different set of problems related to the scaling down of the flows. So there would likely be a very low amount of exhaust scavenging, and likely a low cam lobe overlap, etc. Valve openings cannot be before top dead center because there are not the same fuel/air "slugs being moved around and they would close at bottom dead center because there would be very little inertial push to add to the incoming fuel air charge so no reason to hold a valve open past bottom dead center. In other words, even if constructed exactly as the ports are on a real full sized engine, the flow results would vastly differ. This engine will produce, but not likely put out huge amounts of power due to efficiency limitations of the intake and exhaust cycles flowing through those tiny passageways. Which is why I said that using a gas instead of a fuel droplet/air mix might get a better yield.
The short extraction system of no headers is going to result in a significant torque drop. I'd guess more power loss than the bad bearing. Needs higher temp headers closely matched to the ports.
Back in the early 90s, I told my shop teacher I wanted to make a small V8 motor the size of my palm. Unfortunately the technology wasn't around back then to do this, well not at a price any normal human outside of a good machine shop could do. Lol. So I am very interested in how a V12 does. Talk about taking what I wanted to do and moving it up a bunch of notches, 4 to be exact. Lol. Good luck and I look forward in watching this video.
The flywheel being out that much ate up significant hp and increased whatever damage the rest of the lousy tolerances were already causing. If a legit engine builder like Cosworth made one of these little things it would be capable of powering an rc car for more than a few minutes. Maybe a blender at a cocktail party lol. Definitely impressed with the ignition control system you threw together.
Cosworth?? thats a joke. I worked on brits sometimes they do good things by accident but they have no idea what quality control means. If you wanted a well built micro motor you would got to Honda they already did multi cylinder tiny engines in the early 1960s they built a 125 cc 5 cyl. that got around 34 hp naturally aspirated .But they had Japanese engineers and Sochiro Honda overseeing a formula racing engine not a chinese novelty. the poor ignition was probably a cheap safety device to prevent the engine from grenading at above 2500 rpms.
Before it failed the main reason you lost power is because the exhaust fell off and the imbalance of the intake pressures and exhaust pressures need to be managed to squeeze some power out of it. Also with small engines like this the exhaust pipes help to dissipate the heat from the engine. The combination of that and redlining it over and over in a short time just added to it's failure. I bet with a better carburetor or some type of fuel injection plus a more efficient exhaust system would result in the best performance that thing could give. I work on small engines and these toy ones. They really don't like or cannot handle fast Revving. The seals they use for them are not ment to handle that kind of instantaneous pressures from that high of an RPM. I know for a fact that engine could put out a atleast 3 hp or something close to it. You should try to make a R/C car and put this engine in it! It would be a beast. Even better! make it a POV R/C car with a V12 engine! That's a video I would love to see.
Thank you, that's one of the reasons it takes so long, but now I'm trying to see how I can do everything faster so I can put out more videos, I have so much diversity I want to bring to TH-cam not just engines and stuff... Thank you so much
The standalone engine management was a night and day difference. From the idle, to the revs and throttle response. Nice job figuring that out. Great vid as usual, keep it up👍🏽
So I am new to your channel and content. This video and what you did to bring it all together was NOTHING SHORT OF SPECTACULAR!! By FAR, it is NOW my favorite TH-cam video of ALL TIME, and THATS more than a few. I am in awe of your talent and skills and how you bring them all together for an excellent product, all whole looking like you're having fun. I look forward to more of your content!
My guess was 1hp, nice to see I was pretty close :) A shame though that the manufacturer's ignition system performed so poorly. And the amount of runout on the flywheel is just unacceptable for this product in my opinion.
I'm sorry to tell you that this guy's testing methods were so bad that we still don't have any idea how much horsepower this engine produces. To start, he set out to measure the torque the engine produces in ft-lbf by using a 6-inch (1/2 foot) lever arm on a pound-force scale and then dividing the result by 2 instead of multiplying by 2. The next incorrect bit was he used the force required to stall the engine to calculate the torque. If the engine was capable of making that torque, it wouldn't have stalled. 1 horsepower might still be right, but we can't determine that from this video.
I was guessing about the same as my knock off 49cc Honda 4 stroke single cylinder I use on my bicycle makes about that much as far as I know, might be more like 1.5hp
@@Turavin0I think divide by two is correct. If the arm was twice as long (12") the force would have been half on the scale. So to get the same number he should divide by two. I agree, it certainly isn't a real dyno run with a full sweep and such. However, I feel he was trying to get the torque while it was running using the camera. I think it was a decent attempt without going crazy with a custom dyno.
@@crissd8283 Let's break this down barney style. Let's say you have a ratchet that you're using to tighten a bolt, and that ratchet is 2 feet long. You're pushing down on the end of this 2-foot long ratchet with 100 pounds of force, how much torque are you applying to the bolt?
@@Turavin0 That would be 200 ft-lbs. You multiple the arm times the force. 2ft x 100 lbs. Simple. Ok now let's do this engine dyno. You have 1.3lbs at 1/2ft. So 1.3 x 0.5 or 1.3 divided by two. See simple. So who is right here?
@@bobcobb6809 He blew up the electronics himself. the entire kit was poorly put together including the modifications. I do not want this man work on my vehicles LOL
7:15 - The quantitative and qualitative difference between the stock and the retro ECM is - unreal. Took it from an expensive toy to the look of something potentially useful…. Much easier to watch than engineer, I suspect…. But that is pretty cool with the custom headers and ECM. Kudos.
Hey Brother, you should try something out - I converted my Twin Turbo GS400 to EFI with a Microsquirt and it wasn't making any power at high RPM - what happened was I was getting a large amount of timing drift with RPM, on the order of 20 or more degrees. Set "Spark Hardware Latency" to 200 or 300 and see if it makes a bunch more power.
The little engines are really cool to watch, but 3K $ for 1 Hp more or less ? It also seems you are going to need at least a new main bearing, probably much more. Interesting, but really not high enough quality to be much more than a conversation piece. A channel called Johnny Q90 ( I think ) , has already built up a whole RC car , complete with manual trans with a similar engine. Thanks for the video, hope you find more projects.
For $3000 you can get a running LS engine from a junk yard. Sad to think that a .90 nitro engine can make 5x more hp for less than $500. These engines are nothing but overpriced display pieces.
I can’t believe there is so little power coming out of 50cc’s, I guess it just not efficient for that many cylinders at that size. Compared to a 50cc two stroke in a mini motocross bike it’s terrible.
@@andreim841way more power. And the opposed 2 and 4 cylinder (150cc +) engines the RC stunt guys use, make massive amounts of torque at low rpm (relatively low).
7:01 the way you just breezed past the ridiculous amount of work and skill that went into making this run as sweet as that! Outstanding job man. New subscriber ✌🏻
Thanks, I like keeping a fast pace and in the upcoming videos im going more in depth into each process as it's story related, everything else and live streams I'll be posting on my 2nd channel @WarpedLab
@@WarpedYT I definitely look forward to those videos and seeing inside this little engine but the pace was great in this video too. Zero filler and awesome content. It was just the way you casually said something like “yeah so I set up a new ignition system and now…” I served my time as a mechanic and left the trade many moons ago so I was like whoah whoah hang on hahah! I’m eyeing the marker pen on the fly wheel and trying to process the time and effort of making and retrofitting and entire new ignition system then setting it all up and timing it?! And at the same time just marvelling at the engines idle hahah! So awesome man. Can’t wait to see what failed inside! I’ll subscribe to your other channel too.
Soon, there is going to be the rapture. It's when there will be trumpet sounds, and after the trumpet sounds, God will lift his people from here. Also, God said people should be living by the Bible. Amen, and God bless you. ❤Jesus loves you guys. Dont wait, please. He will welcome you with arms wide open.❤ * John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have eternal life".
With a lot of these engines. They're built for either desktop runners or to go in to RC's. Mostly because of the materials use. Crank shafts are soft as anything on these engines.
@@tonywright8294 Certain assumptions can be made when one considers the nation of the source. Exotic metals can be assumed to NOT have been put to use. A great example of this is the M1911 .45 counterfeits in the Philippines. They have parts which were supposed to be of a specific material, but were made with cheap materials. It is the most dangerous gun in the world to use. It can be *reasonably assumed* that there were no "proper" "exotic materials" used in places where needed in this product. I find it amazing that the parts that do look good appear to have been made well (valve covers, etc.). But upon seeing the exhaust port size and the crank runout... If this were an American company, he would have recourse against that purchase. But he can forward no complaints on this because they will fall on deaf ears. Folks no longer get to examine an item before purchase with online buying. There are problems with this commerce model that have yet to be addressed. That world has gotten crazy with all the gadgetry out there.
For an engine this size, the better solution to dyno it would have probably been something similar to what Torque Test Channel does When measuring watts on drills and grinders and the like. The hook it directly to an electric motor from a BattleBot and then measure how much electricity the motor produces, (FYI: electric motor run in reverse = generator). They have half of the video telling what they did and how they did it, then they upgraded it somewhere along the line. Try doing that next time, they also have a dyno rig to test torque for the equipment they test, but that brings the electric motor to a stop....that would probably be bad news for a gas engine and probably should not be used.... First video on your channel that I have seen, I will have to keep an eye out on your other videos. Have an excellent day!
Yeah exactly. There's no way a 50cc engine is only putting out 1.25 hp. Plus the headers melting and falling off, all the vibration, that poor engine had no chance!
I did sound a lot more like a full size engine when you put your ignition system on it. Sweet sounding engine! I think a single cylinder 50cc makes 2 to 3 hp so 1.25 seems reasonable since there is a lot more friction going on and the bore sizes are so small. Probably not much compression.
The exhaust ports look about 5mm. That's a total port area of about 200 sq mm, equivalent to a single port of about 16mm diameter - very rough I know. The stroke on these engines is about 18mm and the total is around 50cc IIRC. Now 18mm stroke is about half that of a 50cc single, so 8000 rpm is equivalent to a 50cc single turning over at 4000 rpm, which is quite low. The usual calculations show that, allowing for the total piston area, the engine should be equivalent to a 50cc single turning over at about 5000 rpm. This means that with all the complexity this engine is quite a bit worse than a single cylinder 50cc engine like the ones produced in millions by Honda, and that isn't all friction. The total port area is adequate for well over 4BHP. The conclusion is that the valve train is probably very poorly designed.
by far the best i have ever seen one of these little engines run, ive been waiting years for someone to figures these out and put one in a good functioning rc car.
"I want to give this engine a fighting chance to make as much hp as possible." *runs it with an out of balance flywheel* *melts the headers off* lol Seeing someone put a standalone ecu on a mini engine has filled my heart, thank you.❤ Edit: You also probably should have made a stand for the dyno arm, to take the weight off that rear main bearing and help the crankshaft stay as balanced as possible.
Just curious why you didn't go with the V8 model? I know the listed specs are pipe dreams but it states max output at 20kw with a displacement of 277cc. Maybe another video?
Absolutely not ! It's making 1.25HP so 0.9KW, i don't think your battery electric drill will output 900w. Please don't mix torque and horsepower, yeah my impact wrench will do 400nm but with less than a turn, i can also could lock a nut to 100nm by hand but it's much harder to do it at 10k rpm
@@mrcaboosevg6089Apparently a Makita 18V battery can output 30A peak in a powertool and 20A continuous.. 30A*18V=540W peak ; 20A*18V=360W continuous. Add a 80% efficient brushless motor and you have 480W peak drill... If you have a constant 1.8KW drill, it would break my wrist, AND be my new power washer motor. But yeah if plugged in my tea bolier make 3.4KW and it means nothing you can power anything with wall AC
I noticed that the HP was decreasing as more headers were falling off. Each dyno run had fewer headers than the previous one. Exhaust systems do affect HP. Maybe those headers provided just enough back pressure to increase power?
Back pressure doesn’t make horsepower lmao, it robs it. Real headers are designed to pull vacuum on the neighboring exhaust runner to help evacuate the exhaust faster on the next exhaust stroke. This isn’t a 2 stroke that requires a tuned pipe for backpressure, 2 strokes and 4 strokes are wildly different. It was putting out less power because it was getting hotter, and the rotating assembly, pistons, etc were expanding and causing higher friction, you will see this in full size gas engines when they overheat. Those “headers” were doing nothing but directing exhaust away from the table
I think the number on the scale should be multiplied by 2 not divided. If you are dividing it, aren’t you using a lever are of 3 inches now🤔? Am i thinking about this wrong? If it was 1 foot long it would be an accurate foot/pound right? At 6 inches you are only applying half the force of a 12 inch arm which needs to be multiplied by 2 to get a foot/pound reading
The horsepower and torque you get out of v12’s is amazing, but what I didn’t realize until I got one myself, that they run incredibly smooth, zero vibration, perfect balance, monster torque, you just can’t beat them, I love my amg m275, and all I want is a newer one, v8’s don’t feel the same anymore, my c6 z06 collects dust now
yes it is, but many things are "Made in China" and marked "Made in Japan" i have my doubts here because the ignition failed after 10 minutes of use, do you think it was really made in Japan? see what im saying.
@@WarpedYT Well, from actual experience I can tell you that using a hard potting media like that (looks like stycast) is a problem because of the thermal expansion rates. That crap will fracture SMD resistors and caps and even chips. I mad HV power supplies for years and stycast potting is a big industry no no. But yes, Japan made electronics are top notch. They were doing it, with American parts and then their own, for decades longer than others and long before the world let the communist nation of China jump on board of OUR global economy. We see how that turned out. Hack chip motherboards and hack info social media apps. Yeah... these guys in power over there have screwed up what was a normal part of global manufacturing. And I have never heard of that mis-marking thing.
Dude your knowledge and skill level are on an entire different level! Incredible to watch you build the ignition and dyno. Incredible thanks for the video
Love this kind of full content, love your machining skills. Maybe people already mentioned some of these tips (I don't read comments anymore as hate usually emerges within a couple of them) Tips: - make sure it doesn't overheat (proper cooling even after stopping the engine via external pump AND better coolant) so it doesn't warp - it seemed at instances that the gasket was partially blown - nice job with the headers. I'd go with more durable material and connect them according to the cylinder timing so you get some scavenging effect too - silent blocks for the mounts AND the dyno leg so it pushes into the scale more consistently Other than that - if the gasket wasn't blown, my mind was. Great job 💪
Hahaha damn some serious knowledge shown here. The whole engine management upgrade blows my mind. You got some serious talent. What a difference with the new ignition system.
Considering a honda grom only makes 9.7 hp and thats enough to make someone who weighs 150lbs go 60 mph 1hp is pretty good for something that you can pick up with one hand
HOLY S**T! You are a complete and total GLUE-HEAD! ....AND I LOVE IT! This was priceless man! IF you're anywhere near NE Pa and ever want a hand, look me up! I can definitely get into this sort of S**T LOL!~
could you put on some 6 into 1 headers on this with expansion chambers. i wonder how close this coudl get to f1 sounds. there is a great video on how this works by maisteer "How F1 sound is Made"
I think that's the next step, I do have another V12 up next right after this one, yeah I watch his channel actually, the videos are really good but very strange which is sometimes refreshing on TH-cam.
@TheBeeMan1994 Another consideration is that the brake is applied at a specific distance from the crank center. THAT is the "lever" applying the force against the crank. Then, the output arm is a lever that gets torqued against by that brake disc, at that brake pad distance from the crank. I think this also may not be being factored in. But one supposes it does not matter since the output arm is measuring (applying) the force properly to the force transducer (scale). And that arm length is all that matters. Choosing whether it doubles or halves is the question. The same torque yields half the torque on the half length arm, Or is it double the force. Do we half the reading or double it? Applying force a double length arm applies double the force, which is why a breaker bar exists, but when reading torque applied to an arm by a hub, the same torque output at the hub applies what force to a one foot arm and what force to a six inch arm?
@@cosmicraysshotsintothelightsame question I was having, the torque should've been doubled before plugging it into the horsepower calculation, not halved right? Since the lever was 6" instead of 12".
@@cosmicraysshotsintothelightso I actually just asked Gemini AI how this equation should be constructed 2 different times in different ways of wording the scenario. I have to say I stand corrected, the scale reading actually does need to be halved to get the ft lb measurement when using a 6" lever instead of a 12"/1' lever.
Now that I think of it it does make sense though. Sit a scale on a table, use a 6" pipe to press down on the scale with the end of the pipe positioned horizontally, repeat with a 12" pipe. The scale will read about twice as high with the 6" pipe due to having more mechanical advantage ("about" because of human error), with the 12" pipe leverage would be working against you instead of in your favor due to the end of the lever being farther away from the pivot point (your hand).
This video is so cool. All of it! One observation though. As a former Quality non-destructive and destructive component test technician I would completely redesign the dyno testing set-up and make it a lot more static. There is a lot of energy unaccounted for from the high frequency vibration. A solid frame assembly to mount both the engine and dyno equipment together will yield a more accurate and increased result. After watching this video it has made me want to add to my retiree hobbies assortment. Gonna really get serious now and find me a both a mini lathe and horizontal milling machine.
Were you really expecting a 4 stroke ‘model’ engine to make double the ho of a 2 stroke chainsaw/leaf blower engine of the same displacement? I actually think 1.25hp is decent for that displacement in a 4 stroke engine.
@@greenbassboosts8872 Also a good point, but the HP numbers he was hoping for would also be good for a single cylinder 2 stroke engine which makes WAY more power/displacement. I think what he ended up with is decent and what I would have expected, at best.
@@REDSHlFT Yeah 2 stroke makes about double the power as a 4 stroke for a given displacement. Well, obviously, it was two times as much explosion power strokes as a 4 stroke. Hehe
I made it shorter, Warped was the original name, I have much more diverse content and i needed a little bit more freedom, Warped Perception was a little too long for my taste and is perfect for Slow-Mo videos but I have so much more than that I want to show everybody so Warped will make more sense shortly. Sorry but I need more views to make more $$ to make bigger projects and for that I need to Streamline.
*I was wrong. Original comment left as is, correction/update after. TLDR Divided. Should have multiplied. I believe the math is off. Force exerted being measured at half the lever length should be a division by 0.5 not 2. If I'm right it should look like this for run one. 1.875lbs / 0.5 (6inch arm) = 3.75 ft-lb 3.75 x 7,000 = 26,250 / 5,252 4.9981 Or roughly 5hp depending on where you round it to. *update explaining why/how I was wrong Seeing a whole number in the math for lever length correction got me since lever was shorter than 1ft. Plugged in the correction as is. But that is opposite of what should be done. We are working with force on lever FROM torque not force TO MAKE toque. To find torque that made the force, divide by lever. 1ft for ft-lb, 1meter for Nm 3ft vs 1ft vs 0.5ft(6 inch) math for 10ft-lb would look like this. 10 / 3 = 3.33lbs 10 / 1 = 10lbs 10 / 0.5 = 20lbs To find torque the force is making, times by lever. 3ft vs 1ft vs 0.5(6inch) for 10lbs from lever would look like this. 10 x 3 = 30ft-lb 10 x 1 = 10ft-lb 10 x 0.5 = 5ft-lb Vid math is 1.875 / 2, which is the exact same as 1.875 x 0.5 So yeah run one is 1.25HP
I also think you are correct. I did dyno testing and a 6in bar is half a foot. It has half of the leverage so the force value needs to be doubled to get to ft/lbs.
Torque is force multiplied by distance (of the arm). If you have half the length of a foot, in this case 6 inches (god I hate imperial. Use metric please), you need to multiply the force x2 to get the same torque number. If you want to know the force which would be exerted by a twice as long arm, you divide the force in half. So 1.9lbs * 6inch = 11.4lbs-inch. Now into lbs-ft -> 11.4lbs-inch *2 = 22.8lbs-ft.... now I'm confused, why the f* divide by 12, why not 10? Just why. Let's start over. Again: 1.875lbs*6inch is the same as 1.875*0.5ft, because you have to take into account the unit change. Here, in the *0.5 is the division because you have the arm that is half of what we need. Force reduces with length of the arm. I think Warped was right after all in his calculations.
Nobody talking about the Zoomies melting off? Pretty sure I'd remove them all after the first one fell. I just can't understand how he didn't see it - oh that's right! It's his SPONSOR made shit zoomies so he's pretending not to see it.
He likely assumes that he can re-weld them back onto their header plate(s). He could also get some thin steel tubing and get a muffler shop to bend them up for him and make his own thin wall steel versions. They looked thick and that would retain even more heat.
This engine stops revving at 10k rpm as delivered without any load on it. That means that the losses required to turn the engine (pumping losses for intake and exhaust, water pump, oil pump, bearing friction) consume 100% of the power that the engine is producing. At max speed the engine would be producing zero horsepower otherwise it would still be accelerating. You measured 1 lb 14 oz on the scale to stall the engine. If the engine could be stalled by that amount of torque, it isn't capable of producing that amount of torque. Your force calculation is also incorrect, because your lever arm is 1/2 foot, meaning you need to multiply your force output by 2 to get the result in foot pounds.
Why is this so mesmerizing? This dude can clearly build real engines, but something about a microsized V12 is blowing my mind. I gotta quit smoking before I youtube.
Would go slower than sticking a .21 out of an 8th scale rc in it. Those engines make about 2-3hp spinning near 35000-50000rpm. A 5th scale 2 stroke would make way more power. And forget comparing it against an electric hobby grade brushless/lipo system. 8th scale systems are making near 12hp. Putting the cars at 1lb/hp.
Dang dude. Are you a master engine builder?? That new ECU is ridiculously better than before. That's crazy. And, you prove that there's no replacement for displacement. Lol
The reason we have to have exhaust on the engines are to keep from crystallizing the valves. You started melting the headers off the 1st dyno run and with the back bearing wobbling like it was, that probably cost you at least a 10th the power. But i tell you what, you put in some mad time into this video. Wow, the work you had to go through is seriously crazy. Back in 92-93, I asked my shop teacher about making a tiny V8 that could fit in the palm of my hand. He laughed and said something about it costing thousands of dollars to do something like that. I know now he was right. The technology wasnt there back then, but it is now. I have just lost interest into doing something like that. Im sure glad you went through all of that headache for me. Plus you did it better with a V12 and not a V8. Great video man and im sorry that you went through so much to get it running. Take care and peace out. Wow what a video.
XOMETRY - warped.us/xometry and Use Discount Code: *Warped75*
"Single cylinder turbo project" = new subscriber
Maybe you can try giving the engine's ignition some tune and more adjustment to the carburetor, maybe that would make more power. If not..... Supercharge it. Either way it will make more power 😂 and you know how they say. More power = more entertainment.
@davidrox4591 thanks, I actually did a single cylinder turbo setup with EFI a few years back
@@TechTonic420 nah the ignition system is spot on with the ECU I fully tuned it, the carburetor however is a different story.
I have something much better in mind
@@WarpedYT increasing the compression ratio? Cause I saw the video on which you took the engine apart. Also I hope you can find something that can replace the piston rings and the head gaskets.
Surprising how different it sounds with the different ECU!
yeah it changes a lot
Stronger spark and more complete combustion if i had to guess, those RC engine coil packs tend to be very weak
@@neo1231 yeah. all cylinders firing with proper timing makes this actually run good. NGL i was dissapoint with the out of the box performance. you coudld hear it not running properly.
Now with this ecu, this actually sounds like v12
@@Fred_the_1996I don't think it's the strength of the spark I think it's more the timing, like I said in the video that ignition box is junk, wait till you see what I have in store for the next one, I have a couple other videos in between but I'm trying to pump out more content now So it shouldn't be much longer.
@@MigotRenexactly 💯
The difference between ECUs is insane. That junk supplied with the engine should be a point of shame for the manufacturers. These engines aint cheep and it never sounded anything but weazy. After the transplant...its a beast.
I agree, I did not expect to see that huge of a difference, I was pretty blown away
But the difference is that ECU wouldn’t let it over-rev and destroy the engine. For 99% of owners who want to fire it up and give it a run and show their buddies it’s fine. The motor isn’t making anywhere near its full capability, look at the exhaust ports, nothing is polished or ported, they’re tiny. I’d bet the inlet is exactly the same, and the runout on the crank is crazy, probably just running a brass bush in the back not a true bearing, they’re built to a price.
Parasitic losses will be huge. It’s no surprise the power is so poor. Not to mention the tiny exhaust bores that keep the gas flow low.
@@Dave5843-d9m exactly You hit it right on the money, when you scalp things down the parasitic losses are huge compared to a full size,. That explains it perfectly
@@thesausage351 A price....they're $3,000 per Chuan Qi website.
I still can't believe that i told my old job to start making these (mini motors) back in 2006 and they laughed and said no one would buy them... now I can watch a ten or 20 videos about them... I should have trusted my gut
@@kingjoebail7300 always go with your gut
There were several ideas I thought of over the years, just to see someone else make them.
Hope you act on your next one and good luck. I’m rootin’ for ya!
@LouieLouEye Thanks! I appreciate that, you're 100% right there's nothing worse than regret
On a rc car that thing will fly
I was a mechanic for years and I always thought these were more a show piece to be started every so often and never used in anger, so thank you for going for it and effectively wrecking it for our pleasure! Now I really want to see what damage revving it has done.
They make really strong nitro engines that make more power for a lot less money. Granted it’s really cool engineering to make an overhead cam v12 that small.
Yeah I am hoping that was the whole point of running it like that. He wants to get a crappy baseline so his rebuild video with a turbo will really turn some heads, or bend them? Hmm.
Yes , I would love to see the crank shaft.
Imagine putting a V12 engine on a chainsaw! 🫠
Yeah, a conversation piece -- it's just SO LITTLE power and such low RPM for a 12 cylinder 50c engine. 1.25 HP? Regular 50cc single cylinder scooters make 3-4 HP.. In 1966 Honda was racing a 50cc parallel twin that made 13.7 HP at 21500 RPM and lasted long enough to do I think a 50-100 km long race. The same year the Honda RC166 6-cylinder 250cc made 60 HP at 18000 RPM. Modern Honda 250cc 4 stroke single-cylinder CRF250R make 40 HP at 14000 RPM. You'd think a properly engineered 50cc V12 should be able to do 30,000 RPM! 9000 is just nothing.
In the case of this engine, Cheap Chinese Junk has graduated from being cheap to being expensive. $3000 for a mini V12 with this many issues?
I bet you Warped could make a better engine and sell the kit for a better price that does what it says and delivers.
@@MickeyMishra just get an RC nitro engine, they make more power while weighing a fraction the amount. They aren't desk toys like this pile of junk, they're meant to actually GO FAST
Now I still agree that it is cheap Chinese junk but, to be fair clearances at this scale would be nearly impossible to get right. Its difficult at full scale for real engines. My guess is that these little engines would never last in something like an RC that gets used regularly.
It would cost more then double that if it was made in the USA.
@@user-ue6iv2rd1n But it would work and last. Time is extremely valuable and is the most finite resource we have.
Dude I saw the tag and was like "hmmm this will be interesting" then you went and hooked it up to a legit ecu! Rad.
LOL @ the headers falling apart at dyno power levels… dude called it!!
Definitely a heat pump.
of couse i laughed when the first tube dropped , , the the next run , more and more laughing as more tubes kept falling off ! ;)
not hard to call. They do not make aluminum headers for a reason.
ceramic coated would have made a difference
@@andyman8630why not just stainless steel
Small engines suffer because they have very high friction to overcome. This suggests that you disassemble the engine, examine each part for wear, and then replace all of them with new parts that have been balanced and blue printed.
I'm thinking roller bearings for everything would really make this engine worthwhile. But getting tolerance for something like that would be real challenge.
@@MickeyMishraThat is correct and that is definitely the challenge
That's exactly what I'm going to do I'm going to make This engine Chinese American lol. I'm going to do that in the next video info with this one. I have a couple videos in between the next video I have a Harley video coming up, but after that I got one more and then I'm going to do the tear down
With the flywheel so far out of true, I think there's little hope for the bearings.
@@EskWIRED They were pretty loose before I even started I just didn't show it because I don't want to give the engine a bad name.
That went from sounding like a lawnmower to actually sounding like an FIA GT1 class car, thats incredible.
4:30 That's how I remember testing my first real engine for my first car back in 1990 with my father. Just a rebuilt engine on the garage floor with nothing but headers sticking up and back. No radiator just filled the block with coolant and enough gas in a soda can to fire it up for a minute. Was one of the coolest moments of my childhood.
water does not combust so putting coolant in it is a jakaxx move
I wish my dad did stuff like that with me when I was a child. Instead I was causing trouble with friends.
@@ghost.of.aleksz.salad. You put water in the water jacket of the block and seal it. It's enough to cool the engine for a few minutes as that is how the engine warms up anyway, with a closed loop until the thermostat opens and the system runs open from the expansion tank.
My Dad was on the 1973 'Miss Pay-n-Pak' hydroplane team.
Alissons and Merlins as far as the eye could see back at the 'hangar'.
My job was replacing the tachometers on these huge engines...it was the kind of job you gave a kid to keep him out of the way for a few hours.
They had a static-test cell for the engines...a huge concrete and rebar fly-wheel kept these things from blowing up.
Nothing like the sound of a V-12, indoors...
So much for breaking in the cam properly.....
That ECU made a huge difference in the way it ran. Kudos to you for having the patience to wire that in. I feel like tuned headers can improve the power band. And yes of course, turbo or SC.
N/A these have insane potential its already running nitro methane. It needs serious head work. Valve size, shape, material. Porting. Springs. Cams etc. There was once a man who was doing this in Germany with a flow bench..Many years of experience with exotic materials but unfortunately hes in terrible heath and never continued.
I mean before it sounded anemic as hell and not firing on all holes but now with the ecu swap it sounds like a v12.
Seriously night and day. Sounds like a completely different engine.
I mean if you're gonna turbo charge it you might as well dual charge it. Turbo and super. I wanna see those headers melt.
Slope junko😊
Maniac!
You’re an absolute maniac. To go this far to test this little motor.
You are a true Gearhead at core of your soul.
Cheers to ya buddy! 🍻
Great work. I made a similar dyno for aero engines and found it needed a sponge rubber pad between the scales and torque lever. Without it the torsional vibration plays havoc with the load cell in the scales. My readings went way higher with more even consistency after adding that cushion into the coupling.
Quite a few people have made contraptions that they think are antigravity machines, solely because scales tend to under-read when they're weighing something that's vibrating.
@@dansdatatesla said vibration is the key to the universe
@nickmalone3143 - Your mom said it's the key to hapiness in the household......
@@countvonthizzle9623😂
@@countvonthizzle9623 excuse you
The timing and spark is so much better, you can hear it now is very good with burning the fuel, a good indicator is the amount of smoke that's missing
I think he needs to take a look at the rings.
@@EskWIRED what rings?
@@DreStyle the ones that would have kept his countertop from being drenched with oil
If he really wanted to go there, a full exhaust with O2 sensor. Then you get closed loop on that burn.
*_I love destructive tests like this! Next, open it up to see the damage and it's weak points. Awesome work on this one Matt._*
The fact that you can hold the throttle wide-open and the engine basically self governs itself, tells you that the airflow through the engine is highly restricted. The porting in these doesn’t really scale down compared to a real size engine. They’re actually quite restricted port wise in reality with the proper porting, it should make quite a bit of power theoretically as long as you can have an ignition system that will match the RPMs. As you can see most of that ignitions that they come with really aren’t up to the task.
actually i forgot to include the clip but i rev limited it with the ECU to 9000 so I could focus on only the dyvo pull, in all the future videos im going to try and include all those points, but yeah the airflow is restricted none the less
Then one needs to consider the cam as well. These scaled down engines have a different set of problems related to the scaling down of the flows. So there would likely be a very low amount of exhaust scavenging, and likely a low cam lobe overlap, etc. Valve openings cannot be before top dead center because there are not the same fuel/air "slugs being moved around and they would close at bottom dead center because there would be very little inertial push to add to the incoming fuel air charge so no reason to hold a valve open past bottom dead center. In other words, even if constructed exactly as the ports are on a real full sized engine, the flow results would vastly differ. This engine will produce, but not likely put out huge amounts of power due to efficiency limitations of the intake and exhaust cycles flowing through those tiny passageways. Which is why I said that using a gas instead of a fuel droplet/air mix might get a better yield.
I hesitate to suggest this, but surely something like a 3 rotor Wankel would make more sense at this scale ?
@@fungibleunit4477 You perhaps did not actually watch the video then.
@@fungibleunit4477great idea!
One freaking horse in this tiny package? I cant compare it to other engines but this seems powerful enough to power a proper scaled verison of a car.
You can clearly hear the bad quality of the original ignition. Great video for showing how quality electronics changes the exact same engine.
It looked like it lost power after the headers started melting off. Sounded incredible after you got all cylinders firing correctly!
This! He didnt even mention it!
@@justwannasharevideo1058 I'm guessing he didn't want to point out the shoddy quality of his sponsor
@@alexwolski3344he mentioned exactly that in another reply actually
The short extraction system of no headers is going to result in a significant torque drop. I'd guess more power loss than the bad bearing. Needs higher temp headers closely matched to the ports.
@@douglasnicholls1366 well, i have long tube headers on my dodge v10 , so , might be time for a set on this engine ! ?? :)
Back in the early 90s, I told my shop teacher I wanted to make a small V8 motor the size of my palm. Unfortunately the technology wasn't around back then to do this, well not at a price any normal human outside of a good machine shop could do. Lol.
So I am very interested in how a V12 does. Talk about taking what I wanted to do and moving it up a bunch of notches, 4 to be exact. Lol. Good luck and I look forward in watching this video.
The flywheel being out that much ate up significant hp and increased whatever damage the rest of the lousy tolerances were already causing. If a legit engine builder like Cosworth made one of these little things it would be capable of powering an rc car for more than a few minutes. Maybe a blender at a cocktail party lol. Definitely impressed with the ignition control system you threw together.
LOL... if Cosworth made that motor, it would run at 20,000 RPM and produce 5 hp.
Cosworth?? thats a joke. I worked on brits sometimes they do good things by accident but they have no idea what quality control means. If you wanted a well built micro motor you would got to Honda they already did multi cylinder tiny engines in the early 1960s they built a 125 cc 5 cyl. that got around 34 hp naturally aspirated .But they had Japanese engineers and Sochiro Honda overseeing a formula racing engine not a chinese novelty. the poor ignition was probably a cheap safety device to prevent the engine from grenading at above 2500 rpms.
Yeah, I could see that with each run the flywheel was getting looser and HP was dipping.
Flywheel doesn't eat power but responsiveness
@@bernhardjordan9200 there were loses because the flywheel mounting design was crap acording to the author.
It now sounds like a completely different engine. Great job mate
Yeah the manufacturer clearly had no idea what they were doing.
Before it failed the main reason you lost power is because the exhaust fell off and the imbalance of the intake pressures and exhaust pressures need to be managed to squeeze some power out of it. Also with small engines like this the exhaust pipes help to dissipate the heat from the engine. The combination of that and redlining it over and over in a short time just added to it's failure. I bet with a better carburetor or some type of fuel injection plus a more efficient exhaust system would result in the best performance that thing could give.
I work on small engines and these toy ones. They really don't like or cannot handle fast Revving. The seals they use for them are not ment to handle that kind of instantaneous pressures from that high of an RPM.
I know for a fact that engine could put out a atleast 3 hp or something close to it.
You should try to make a R/C car and put this engine in it! It would be a beast. Even better! make it a POV R/C car with a V12 engine! That's a video I would love to see.
Dude, your level of dedication and focus in making these awesome videos is unmatched on TH-cam! You are a genius sir! Keep up the great work!
Thank you, that's one of the reasons it takes so long, but now I'm trying to see how I can do everything faster so I can put out more videos, I have so much diversity I want to bring to TH-cam not just engines and stuff... Thank you so much
@@WarpedYT Let's make a rail gun!
The standalone engine management was a night and day difference. From the idle, to the revs and throttle response. Nice job figuring that out. Great vid as usual, keep it up👍🏽
So I am new to your channel and content. This video and what you did to bring it all together was NOTHING SHORT OF SPECTACULAR!! By FAR, it is NOW my favorite TH-cam video of ALL TIME, and THATS more than a few. I am in awe of your talent and skills and how you bring them all together for an excellent product, all whole looking like you're having fun. I look forward to more of your content!
My guess was 1hp, nice to see I was pretty close :)
A shame though that the manufacturer's ignition system performed so poorly. And the amount of runout on the flywheel is just unacceptable for this product in my opinion.
I'm sorry to tell you that this guy's testing methods were so bad that we still don't have any idea how much horsepower this engine produces. To start, he set out to measure the torque the engine produces in ft-lbf by using a 6-inch (1/2 foot) lever arm on a pound-force scale and then dividing the result by 2 instead of multiplying by 2. The next incorrect bit was he used the force required to stall the engine to calculate the torque. If the engine was capable of making that torque, it wouldn't have stalled.
1 horsepower might still be right, but we can't determine that from this video.
I was guessing about the same as my knock off 49cc Honda 4 stroke single cylinder I use on my bicycle makes about that much as far as I know, might be more like 1.5hp
@@Turavin0I think divide by two is correct. If the arm was twice as long (12") the force would have been half on the scale. So to get the same number he should divide by two.
I agree, it certainly isn't a real dyno run with a full sweep and such. However, I feel he was trying to get the torque while it was running using the camera. I think it was a decent attempt without going crazy with a custom dyno.
@@crissd8283 Let's break this down barney style. Let's say you have a ratchet that you're using to tighten a bolt, and that ratchet is 2 feet long. You're pushing down on the end of this 2-foot long ratchet with 100 pounds of force, how much torque are you applying to the bolt?
@@Turavin0 That would be 200 ft-lbs. You multiple the arm times the force. 2ft x 100 lbs. Simple.
Ok now let's do this engine dyno. You have 1.3lbs at 1/2ft. So 1.3 x 0.5 or 1.3 divided by two. See simple.
So who is right here?
I was very impressed with your ignition system. Sounded so much better
Remember that it was only running on 8 cylinders with the other ECU
@@bobcobb6809 He blew up the electronics himself. the entire kit was poorly put together including the modifications. I do not want this man work on my vehicles LOL
That was a huge difference from stock ecu. Made that engine sing. Great video.
7:15 - The quantitative and qualitative difference between the stock and the retro ECM is - unreal. Took it from an expensive toy to the look of something potentially useful…. Much easier to watch than engineer, I suspect…. But that is pretty cool with the custom headers and ECM. Kudos.
Also - you were right about the melting headers.
Hey Brother, you should try something out - I converted my Twin Turbo GS400 to EFI with a Microsquirt and it wasn't making any power at high RPM - what happened was I was getting a large amount of timing drift with RPM, on the order of 20 or more degrees. Set "Spark Hardware Latency" to 200 or 300 and see if it makes a bunch more power.
The little engines are really cool to watch, but 3K $ for 1 Hp more or less ? It also seems you are going to need at least a new main bearing, probably much more. Interesting, but really not high enough quality to be much more than a conversation piece. A channel called Johnny Q90 ( I think ) , has already built up a whole RC car , complete with manual trans with a similar engine.
Thanks for the video, hope you find more projects.
JohnnyQ90 is a legend
For $3000 you can get a running LS engine from a junk yard. Sad to think that a .90 nitro engine can make 5x more hp for less than $500. These engines are nothing but overpriced display pieces.
I can’t believe there is so little power coming out of 50cc’s, I guess it just not efficient for that many cylinders at that size. Compared to a 50cc two stroke in a mini motocross bike it’s terrible.
@@AussieDaz87 Powerwise a 2.5 cc 2 stroke MWWS glow engine smokes this V12 :)
@@andreim841way more power. And the opposed 2 and 4 cylinder (150cc +) engines the RC stunt guys use, make massive amounts of torque at low rpm (relatively low).
7:01 the way you just breezed past the ridiculous amount of work and skill that went into making this run as sweet as that! Outstanding job man. New subscriber ✌🏻
Thanks, I like keeping a fast pace and in the upcoming videos im going more in depth into each process as it's story related, everything else and live streams I'll be posting on my 2nd channel @WarpedLab
@@WarpedYT I definitely look forward to those videos and seeing inside this little engine but the pace was great in this video too. Zero filler and awesome content. It was just the way you casually said something like “yeah so I set up a new ignition system and now…” I served my time as a mechanic and left the trade many moons ago so I was like whoah whoah hang on hahah! I’m eyeing the marker pen on the fly wheel and trying to process the time and effort of making and retrofitting and entire new ignition system then setting it all up and timing it?! And at the same time just marvelling at the engines idle hahah! So awesome man. Can’t wait to see what failed inside! I’ll subscribe to your other channel too.
Soon, there is going to be the rapture. It's when there will be trumpet sounds, and after the trumpet sounds, God will lift his people from here. Also, God said people should be living by the Bible. Amen, and God bless you.
❤Jesus loves you guys. Dont wait, please. He will welcome you with arms wide open.❤
* John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have eternal life".
JAW DROPPED!
😊 thank you so much !!!! Super appreciated!
@@MickeyMishra 🤔
@@WarpedYT add a turbo maybe?
Nice! 👍🏾
Theses enegines need the especial exhaust for 2strokes engines . If you want power it needs. but who would make it them ?
would love to watch you open up that v12
Coming soon
Great demo, loved the sound with the headers and new ECU.
With a lot of these engines. They're built for either desktop runners or to go in to RC's. Mostly because of the materials use. Crank shafts are soft as anything on these engines.
Yeah, the steel is very low carbon
Have you tested them ? Doubt it .
@@tonywright8294 Certain assumptions can be made when one considers the nation of the source. Exotic metals can be assumed to NOT have been put to use. A great example of this is the M1911 .45 counterfeits in the Philippines. They have parts which were supposed to be of a specific material, but were made with cheap materials. It is the most dangerous gun in the world to use. It can be *reasonably assumed* that there were no "proper" "exotic materials" used in places where needed in this product. I find it amazing that the parts that do look good appear to have been made well (valve covers, etc.). But upon seeing the exhaust port size and the crank runout... If this were an American company, he would have recourse against that purchase. But he can forward no complaints on this because they will fall on deaf ears. Folks no longer get to examine an item before purchase with online buying. There are problems with this commerce model that have yet to be addressed. That world has gotten crazy with all the gadgetry out there.
Sounds like a proper V12 with custom ignition system.
Stock system seems to be trash.
Dude your dedication is unrivaled and makes for fantastic content 👌
For an engine this size, the better solution to dyno it would have probably been something similar to what Torque Test Channel does When measuring watts on drills and grinders and the like.
The hook it directly to an electric motor from a BattleBot and then measure how much electricity the motor produces, (FYI: electric motor run in reverse = generator). They have half of the video telling what they did and how they did it, then they upgraded it somewhere along the line. Try doing that next time, they also have a dyno rig to test torque for the equipment they test, but that brings the electric motor to a stop....that would probably be bad news for a gas engine and probably should not be used....
First video on your channel that I have seen, I will have to keep an eye out on your other videos. Have an excellent day!
Man this!
Yeah exactly. There's no way a 50cc engine is only putting out 1.25 hp. Plus the headers melting and falling off, all the vibration, that poor engine had no chance!
Never underestimate a great ecu and a good ignition system. Bread and butter for a great working engine.
Hands down the BEST micro engine vid i have ever seen thank you!
Jeez man you are one capable engineer. Seriously impressive love this video
I did sound a lot more like a full size engine when you put your ignition system on it. Sweet sounding engine! I think a single cylinder 50cc makes 2 to 3 hp so 1.25 seems reasonable since there is a lot more friction going on and the bore sizes are so small. Probably not much compression.
A 3cc 2-stroke nitro single cylinder makes 2 horsepower. This thing is an inefficient noisemaker desk toy.
@@Ang3lUki this isn't nitro.
A single cylinder 50CC can make up to 20 HP/19000 rpm (GP 50CC race bike).
@@lexkroese8468way to shoot at the stars we’re talking about things that normal hobbyists or tinkerers can’t actually own
The exhaust ports look about 5mm. That's a total port area of about 200 sq mm, equivalent to a single port of about 16mm diameter - very rough I know.
The stroke on these engines is about 18mm and the total is around 50cc IIRC. Now 18mm stroke is about half that of a 50cc single, so 8000 rpm is equivalent to a 50cc single turning over at 4000 rpm, which is quite low. The usual calculations show that, allowing for the total piston area, the engine should be equivalent to a 50cc single turning over at about 5000 rpm.
This means that with all the complexity this engine is quite a bit worse than a single cylinder 50cc engine like the ones produced in millions by Honda, and that isn't all friction. The total port area is adequate for well over 4BHP. The conclusion is that the valve train is probably very poorly designed.
by far the best i have ever seen one of these little engines run, ive been waiting years for someone to figures these out and put one in a good functioning rc car.
"I want to give this engine a fighting chance to make as much hp as possible."
*runs it with an out of balance flywheel*
*melts the headers off*
lol
Seeing someone put a standalone ecu on a mini engine has filled my heart, thank you.❤
Edit: You also probably should have made a stand for the dyno arm, to take the weight off that rear main bearing and help the crankshaft stay as balanced as possible.
That was amazing, you and Todd @ project farm are two of the best channels on YT Thank's Matt.👍🇺🇸
Just curious why you didn't go with the V8 model? I know the listed specs are pipe dreams but it states max output at 20kw with a displacement of 277cc. Maybe another video?
It actually sounds good with the full ECU setup! collector and resonator next? 2x capacity of engine will isolate it from downstream exhaust.
It's crazy how a little electric drill has more power than this
Absolutely not ! It's making 1.25HP so 0.9KW, i don't think your battery electric drill will output 900w.
Please don't mix torque and horsepower, yeah my impact wrench will do 400nm but with less than a turn, i can also could lock a nut to 100nm by hand but it's much harder to do it at 10k rpm
@@bigpig187 Battery drills run about 2.5 horsepower. Even the most basic non branded plug in drills are 1500w
Electric drills are an engineering marvel TBH, kinda in the same category as Smart Phones
you have a good point but i think they meant torque
@@mrcaboosevg6089Apparently a Makita 18V battery can output 30A peak in a powertool and 20A continuous.. 30A*18V=540W peak ; 20A*18V=360W continuous. Add a 80% efficient brushless motor and you have 480W peak drill... If you have a constant 1.8KW drill, it would break my wrist, AND be my new power washer motor. But yeah if plugged in my tea bolier make 3.4KW and it means nothing you can power anything with wall AC
13:55... I think i herd a little rod knocking
Bro, that thing sounds 2 to 3 times better. Since you did the retrofit.
Besides all else, that thing sounded beautiful at 9000rpm. Great vid 🤙🏼
That looked like an immense amount of work lol. Very cool though
I noticed that the HP was decreasing as more headers were falling off. Each dyno run had fewer headers than the previous one. Exhaust systems do affect HP. Maybe those headers provided just enough back pressure to increase power?
Back pressure doesn’t make horsepower lmao, it robs it. Real headers are designed to pull vacuum on the neighboring exhaust runner to help evacuate the exhaust faster on the next exhaust stroke.
This isn’t a 2 stroke that requires a tuned pipe for backpressure, 2 strokes and 4 strokes are wildly different.
It was putting out less power because it was getting hotter, and the rotating assembly, pistons, etc were expanding and causing higher friction, you will see this in full size gas engines when they overheat. Those “headers” were doing nothing but directing exhaust away from the table
It would not be a "back pressure", it would be a "scavenging" reduced pressure allowing for better flow and cylinder evacuation.
This was exactly what I was wondering. Thanks for all your time and trouble :)
The more I watch the video, the more ideas I see with that engine. I wonder if you can build a Mini Dodge Ram TRX. That would be crazy ✌🏾
12:32 yeah! SEND IT! send it all the way back to Japan!
Sold in Japan made in China 😂
Japan makes some of the best motors you ever seen stop that bs.. If you are really trying to send a dig on Japan.
@jaredsouza4631 i know they Make the best engines. You misunderstood me. So calm down
Dude...Youre an effing WIZARD! Your video popped up on my feed and bingo! Instant sub. Aloha from Hawaii Bud!🤙🤙
Shouldn’t you have divided the force number by the lever length in feet? 11:17
What im saying is you should have doubled the force reading on the scale, not halved it
I was thinking the same thing.
If a frying pan had a super long handle it would be harder to hold 😁
I think the number on the scale should be multiplied by 2 not divided. If you are dividing it, aren’t you using a lever are of 3 inches now🤔? Am i thinking about this wrong? If it was 1 foot long it would be an accurate foot/pound right? At 6 inches you are only applying half the force of a 12 inch arm which needs to be multiplied by 2 to get a foot/pound reading
Was it just me, or were the welds on some of the headers melting off?
The horsepower and torque you get out of v12’s is amazing, but what I didn’t realize until I got one myself, that they run incredibly smooth, zero vibration, perfect balance, monster torque, you just can’t beat them, I love my amg m275, and all I want is a newer one, v8’s don’t feel the same anymore, my c6 z06 collects dust now
5:21 "Made In Japan" is actually a mark of high quality, electronic components. It could have said "Made In China."
yes it is, but many things are "Made in China" and marked "Made in Japan" i have my doubts here because the ignition failed after 10 minutes of use, do you think it was really made in Japan? see what im saying.
@@WarpedYT Could be a fake board from China then.
I guess it could be a Chinese knock off.
@@WarpedYT Well, from actual experience I can tell you that using a hard potting media like that (looks like stycast) is a problem because of the thermal expansion rates. That crap will fracture SMD resistors and caps and even chips. I mad HV power supplies for years and stycast potting is a big industry no no. But yes, Japan made electronics are top notch. They were doing it, with American parts and then their own, for decades longer than others and long before the world let the communist nation of China jump on board of OUR global economy. We see how that turned out. Hack chip motherboards and hack info social media apps. Yeah... these guys in power over there have screwed up what was a normal part of global manufacturing. And I have never heard of that mis-marking thing.
@@cosmicraysshotsintothelight 100% agree
Dude your knowledge and skill level are on an entire different level! Incredible to watch you build the ignition and dyno. Incredible thanks for the video
That original ignition was a disaster, but man, you unleashed the beast with the new controller!!!
Give it 12 to 1 headers
Exactly my thought there's no space limitations.
Love this kind of full content, love your machining skills. Maybe people already mentioned some of these tips (I don't read comments anymore as hate usually emerges within a couple of them)
Tips:
- make sure it doesn't overheat (proper cooling even after stopping the engine via external pump AND better coolant) so it doesn't warp
- it seemed at instances that the gasket was partially blown
- nice job with the headers. I'd go with more durable material and connect them according to the cylinder timing so you get some scavenging effect too
- silent blocks for the mounts AND the dyno leg so it pushes into the scale more consistently
Other than that - if the gasket wasn't blown, my mind was. Great job 💪
I'm tellin ya, this guy hits it out of the park with this one!! I cannot wait to see what he does next!!
Hahaha damn some serious knowledge shown here. The whole engine management upgrade blows my mind. You got some serious talent. What a difference with the new ignition system.
That’s epic!! Man you have some skills very impressed!
Yoo Kevin ,nice to see you out here 😁👍
Im guessing around 4.3 HP.
Edit; i was wayyy off 😂
I guessed 5hp. That was a bit optimistic.
Considering a honda grom only makes 9.7 hp and thats enough to make someone who weighs 150lbs go 60 mph 1hp is pretty good for something that you can pick up with one hand
I thought around the same, maybe 3.5
i think the math was wrong, shouldnt have divided by 2 for the 6 inch lever, as a foot pound is 1 lb at 12 inches, and at 6 inches it would be .5lb
@@Pug-man01so we need 10 mini v12’s for a 10hp v120 engine in a grom!😂
HOLY S**T! You are a complete and total GLUE-HEAD! ....AND I LOVE IT! This was priceless man! IF you're anywhere near NE Pa and ever want a hand, look me up! I can definitely get into this sort of S**T LOL!~
could you put on some 6 into 1 headers on this with expansion chambers. i wonder how close this coudl get to f1 sounds. there is a great video on how this works by maisteer "How F1 sound is Made"
I think that's the next step, I do have another V12 up next right after this one, yeah I watch his channel actually, the videos are really good but very strange which is sometimes refreshing on TH-cam.
@TheBeeMan1994 Another consideration is that the brake is applied at a specific distance from the crank center. THAT is the "lever" applying the force against the crank. Then, the output arm is a lever that gets torqued against by that brake disc, at that brake pad distance from the crank. I think this also may not be being factored in.
But one supposes it does not matter since the output arm is measuring (applying) the force properly to the force transducer (scale). And that arm length is all that matters. Choosing whether it doubles or halves is the question. The same torque yields half the torque on the half length arm, Or is it double the force. Do we half the reading or double it? Applying force a double length arm applies double the force, which is why a breaker bar exists, but when reading torque applied to an arm by a hub, the same torque output at the hub applies what force to a one foot arm and what force to a six inch arm?
@@cosmicraysshotsintothelightsame question I was having, the torque should've been doubled before plugging it into the horsepower calculation, not halved right? Since the lever was 6" instead of 12".
@@cosmicraysshotsintothelightso I actually just asked Gemini AI how this equation should be constructed 2 different times in different ways of wording the scenario. I have to say I stand corrected, the scale reading actually does need to be halved to get the ft lb measurement when using a 6" lever instead of a 12"/1' lever.
Now that I think of it it does make sense though. Sit a scale on a table, use a 6" pipe to press down on the scale with the end of the pipe positioned horizontally, repeat with a 12" pipe. The scale will read about twice as high with the 6" pipe due to having more mechanical advantage ("about" because of human error), with the 12" pipe leverage would be working against you instead of in your favor due to the end of the lever being farther away from the pivot point (your hand).
yes please! let's see inside after that.
This video is so cool. All of it! One observation though. As a former Quality non-destructive and destructive component test technician I would completely redesign the dyno testing set-up and make it a lot more static. There is a lot of energy unaccounted for from the high frequency vibration. A solid frame assembly to mount both the engine and dyno equipment together will yield a more accurate and increased result. After watching this video it has made me want to add to my retiree hobbies assortment. Gonna really get serious now and find me a both a mini lathe and horizontal milling machine.
thats sounds great but not with that Flywheel and Crank so out of True...LOL
Were you really expecting a 4 stroke ‘model’ engine to make double the ho of a 2 stroke chainsaw/leaf blower engine of the same displacement? I actually think 1.25hp is decent for that displacement in a 4 stroke engine.
It's a normal amount of power once you consider how much extra frictional losses there are compared to a single cylinder 50cc
@@greenbassboosts8872 Also a good point, but the HP numbers he was hoping for would also be good for a single cylinder 2 stroke engine which makes WAY more power/displacement. I think what he ended up with is decent and what I would have expected, at best.
@@REDSHlFT Yeah 2 stroke makes about double the power as a 4 stroke for a given displacement. Well, obviously, it was two times as much explosion power strokes as a 4 stroke. Hehe
13:34 Is that an electric scooter with a jet engine strapped to it? 😭
Man Total respect, brother. I wouldn't have a clue how to do a tenth of this stuff, but it's very cool to watch 😎 👍
1.5 horsepower your welcome
what happened to Warped Perception? Its just warped now? :( WTF?
I made it shorter, Warped was the original name, I have much more diverse content and i needed a little bit more freedom, Warped Perception was a little too long for my taste and is perfect for Slow-Mo videos but I have so much more than that I want to show everybody so Warped will make more sense shortly. Sorry but I need more views to make more $$ to make bigger projects and for that I need to Streamline.
@@WarpedYT nah i get it man, i just was shocked and thought something happend. and yeah you're right. hope it does well for you, i dig you're stuff!
@@tslim250 thanks!!! i really appreciate the support
I often daydream about these kind of setups but you actually do it! Respect
That unit made a sick difference!!!!!!
*I was wrong. Original comment left as is, correction/update after. TLDR Divided. Should have multiplied.
I believe the math is off. Force exerted being measured at half the lever length should be a division by 0.5 not 2. If I'm right it should look like this for run one.
1.875lbs / 0.5 (6inch arm) = 3.75 ft-lb
3.75 x 7,000 = 26,250 / 5,252
4.9981
Or roughly 5hp depending on where you round it to.
*update explaining why/how I was wrong
Seeing a whole number in the math for lever length correction got me since lever was shorter than 1ft. Plugged in the correction as is. But that is opposite of what should be done. We are working with force on lever FROM torque not force TO MAKE toque.
To find torque that made the force, divide by lever. 1ft for ft-lb, 1meter for Nm
3ft vs 1ft vs 0.5ft(6 inch) math for 10ft-lb would look like this.
10 / 3 = 3.33lbs
10 / 1 = 10lbs
10 / 0.5 = 20lbs
To find torque the force is making, times by lever.
3ft vs 1ft vs 0.5(6inch) for 10lbs from lever would look like this.
10 x 3 = 30ft-lb
10 x 1 = 10ft-lb
10 x 0.5 = 5ft-lb
Vid math is 1.875 / 2, which is the exact same as 1.875 x 0.5
So yeah run one is 1.25HP
I also think you are correct. I did dyno testing and a 6in bar is half a foot. It has half of the leverage so the force value needs to be doubled to get to ft/lbs.
Torque is force multiplied by distance (of the arm). If you have half the length of a foot, in this case 6 inches (god I hate imperial. Use metric please), you need to multiply the force x2 to get the same torque number. If you want to know the force which would be exerted by a twice as long arm, you divide the force in half. So 1.9lbs * 6inch = 11.4lbs-inch. Now into lbs-ft -> 11.4lbs-inch *2 = 22.8lbs-ft.... now I'm confused, why the f* divide by 12, why not 10? Just why. Let's start over.
Again: 1.875lbs*6inch is the same as 1.875*0.5ft, because you have to take into account the unit change. Here, in the *0.5 is the division because you have the arm that is half of what we need. Force reduces with length of the arm. I think Warped was right after all in his calculations.
this is what ive been saying, mat was wrong, yeah its 5hp
That's what I thought as well... 6in arm means the force measured needs to be doubled to get ft/lbs.
@@Cyrix2k you get more force with a shorter arm than a longer one, with the same torque
I’m an aerospace engineer. All I can say is wow man. I really admire what you did.
thank you
Nobody talking about the Zoomies melting off? Pretty sure I'd remove them all after the first one fell. I just can't understand how he didn't see it - oh that's right! It's his SPONSOR made shit zoomies so he's pretending not to see it.
he did admit that making them out of aluminum might've been a mistake in the video, if you paid attention
The shills have taken over youtube
@@schleepyrandy still deserved much more attention.
He likely assumes that he can re-weld them back onto their header plate(s). He could also get some thin steel tubing and get a muffler shop to bend them up for him and make his own thin wall steel versions. They looked thick and that would retain even more heat.
@@cosmicraysshotsintothelight "he likely". Based on what? People must make crap up...
This engine stops revving at 10k rpm as delivered without any load on it. That means that the losses required to turn the engine (pumping losses for intake and exhaust, water pump, oil pump, bearing friction) consume 100% of the power that the engine is producing. At max speed the engine would be producing zero horsepower otherwise it would still be accelerating.
You measured 1 lb 14 oz on the scale to stall the engine. If the engine could be stalled by that amount of torque, it isn't capable of producing that amount of torque. Your force calculation is also incorrect, because your lever arm is 1/2 foot, meaning you need to multiply your force output by 2 to get the result in foot pounds.
not if it cannot breathe. A Polaris tech instructor informed us they can design a built in rev limiter using the inlet tract.
Why is this so mesmerizing? This dude can clearly build real engines, but something about a microsized V12 is blowing my mind. I gotta quit smoking before I youtube.
Imagine a 1/3 scale RC with that in it.💯💯💯
1/3?
I'd say 1/6 scale at most.
Already been done. Videos floating around of a lambo build with one of these in it. As the creator behind this engines does a transmission also.
You'd get about 7.7 HP, useless
Would go slower than sticking a .21 out of an 8th scale rc in it. Those engines make about 2-3hp spinning near 35000-50000rpm.
A 5th scale 2 stroke would make way more power.
And forget comparing it against an electric hobby grade brushless/lipo system. 8th scale systems are making near 12hp. Putting the cars at 1lb/hp.
I think you're totally missing the point of these novelty engines. Just turning over and running without load is the main point of them.
I will mount it on my MBX bike
Bruh💀
Dang dude. Are you a master engine builder?? That new ECU is ridiculously better than before. That's crazy. And, you prove that there's no replacement for displacement. Lol
I want one of those for my desk as a toy but for $3000 I can buy a real engine... lol
Now turbo it
Motor sounded 100x’s stronger after ignition upgrade. Could really hear it in the RPM’s and throttle response 👍 Cool video🙂👍
Maybe i need some pipes like those on my BMW E32 750iL V12 🤔 it'd sound wild instead of mild 😆
How much did it cost 😂😂😂
Multiple thousand dollars
Upwards of 2k i think
I was not expecting the overkill ecu. Great video!
That was an unexpected upgrade, I couldn't believe how much of a difference it made.
The reason we have to have exhaust on the engines are to keep from crystallizing the valves. You started melting the headers off the 1st dyno run and with the back bearing wobbling like it was, that probably cost you at least a 10th the power.
But i tell you what, you put in some mad time into this video. Wow, the work you had to go through is seriously crazy.
Back in 92-93, I asked my shop teacher about making a tiny V8 that could fit in the palm of my hand. He laughed and said something about it costing thousands of dollars to do something like that. I know now he was right. The technology wasnt there back then, but it is now. I have just lost interest into doing something like that.
Im sure glad you went through all of that headache for me. Plus you did it better with a V12 and not a V8. Great video man and im sorry that you went through so much to get it running. Take care and peace out. Wow what a video.
Wow that ignition made a huge difference ! Awesome video man .
That ECU made a crazy world of difference. The throttle response was super noticable.
You ran 3 dyno tests with the headers falling off. This is awesome.