30 minutes of me ranting about adventure time couples. That's basically it. Follow me on insta: • Adventure Time | Treet... #adventuretime #cartoons #cartoonnetwork #fionnaandcake #finnandjake #animation
The reveal that Simon was once human made me feel so bad for him- learning moments later that he called Betty “My Princess” made me feel even worse. I love rewatching the series and seeing Finn instantly change to calling him Simon after the episode
I know!! The reveal that REALLY changed the show forever😭 I remember noticing Finn calling him Simon especially in the arc where he stays at the treehouse with them for a while
he always struck me as that demented uncle that sometimes come babysit but the kids don't like him because of his weird behaviour and the adults don't like him watching the kids either because he lets them get away with all kinds of bad behaviour
Right, in the early seasons ice King was depicted as a creep and clowning villain, but later its revealed that he was really a hero. Simon knew the using the crown would scramble his mind, but he willingly turned himself into a mental health patient to save Marceline
Honestly it's kinda sad how Finn as a human growing up in a dog family had to deal with both his parents and his brothers growing old and dying much faster than he did. And Jake could have lived with Lady Rainycorn or even on his own like their brother did, since he was an adult already, but he didn't, because he understood that Finn is still a child who needs his family, despite them being the same age. It's honestly quite impressive how Jake managed to retain his sense of self and have a healthy relationship with Finn (on his end) while sacrificing so much of his independence to take care of him. He took on that parental role but he did it out of pure love for Finn and he never lost sight of who he was and what life he wanted and that paints a beautiful parallel to basically every other relationship in the show.
I would like to add that at some point (I think when Finn turns like 15) Jake starts to go on his own more often, let Finn solve his own problems and to learn how to be more independent and I love that. Even when Finn did that one tower to rip off his dad's arm, when Jake saw PB try to fix Finn's problem he told her "he'll manage on his own" and I love that from Jake, as Finn grew older he tried to give him more space and independence
The way Adventure Time treats romance and relationships is something I will always love, but its because it doesn't try to make it look easy or tell us its something we need to have in our lives. It portrays it as messy, something you'll only ever get the hang of by going through it. It doesn't say what's right or wrong, instead warning us that its delicate, and easy to mess up even while you're trying to do something you believe with all your heart is good.
I would like to say that Jake and Lady Rainicorn are not actually married, which I think is good to note since their love is just as important regardless
@@ChiggerJake confirmed that he is NOT married to Lady in season 7 episode 1 titled Bonnie and Neddy, Jake tells King of OOO that lady is his girlfriend and he doesn’t have any wives.
the reason Jake and Lady aren't married isn't a in-universe reason, (although you certainly can head-canon some) it's because CN didn't like the idea of a magical dog marrying a rainbow horse. which like, i guess is pretty out there. but children have no concept of the institution of marriage, they just know what being married is.
@@tyrannosarcophagous3447do you have a source for that? Because I think that if that made them uncomfortable, they definitely wouldn't have made them have kids
As a teen, I thought of Jake as a brother figure... as an adult, I def see Jake as a father figure. Finn having daddy issues (in addition to other attachment issues) made Jake's presence extra meaningful (and maybe even stunted Finn). My 2cents.
I also want to say... this essay video is really well done. Thanks for recording this. I appreciate hearing ideas that I'm maybe not equipped to come up with myself. you really nailed it.
When I was a kid, I also thought of Jake as a father figure for Finn, sinse he's usually more chill and wise than Finn. I had to re watch the show as an adult to nice that they were actually brother brothers hehee
The notion that men are “stunted” when they have a positive male support figure in their life sure is a weird one. It always seemed like a joke to me how people believe boys are supposed to become men all on their own. Like we are Spartans sending them through Agoge or some shit
I think fin is obsessive not only with his relationships, I think he's obsessed in general, and that is one of he's biggest flaws and characterization.
I mean kinda makes sense. He’s never known other humans and human interaction. Or interaction in general outside of Jake most his life that turns into literally saving princesses and adventures. He only knows of dealing with people in extremes. Kinda makes sense he’s so obsessive is all I’m saying he never got healthy interaction with others much less other women
I feel like theres also this contrast between Maceline and Betty when it came to obsession vs a healthy relationship with simon and the ice king. Betty loved Simon, and when she saw him become the ice king, she saw the ice king not as a person, but as a symptom; something that needed to be treated. and she became obsessive with doing everything in her power to bring back the man she gave her life for, back to being Simon. on the other hand Marceline knew Simon, and watched as he sacrificed himself to protect her. And when Simon became the ice king, instead of resenting this new vision of him that took Simon away, she excepted and cared for him as the ice king and as Simon. tho marcy did get mad at the beginning of the show that the ice king didn’t remember her or did crazy, messed up things, over the period of the show she got to learn more about the ice king, and started to care for him because of who he was, not just because he was Simon. while betty tried to find piece with the ice king, she was so obsessed that he used to be Simon and couldn’t accept the ice king as a person, becoming even more obsessed to change him back.
Love this analysis. It really tore me up seeing 30s Finn being so hurt and just "keeping busy", thats he's unable to actually help others. I think the pain of losing someone so close will remain forever, but I hope he was able to find happiness before he dies in Together Again.
The reveal at the end of Fionna & Cake that Simon may have gotten a different "ending" if he'd cared more about Nova/Betty's choices both in the game and in their lives, or considered that their love was part obsession literally had my jaw on the floor!!!
Simon struck me as somebody who was not very well established in his field when they met so he’s probably around 26ish and Betty seemed like she was in school for a while so she’s probably in her 20s as well. Also she was never his direct student he gave one lecture in her class and she was a fan of his probably because he tackled obscure things🤔 so it was never a do this or I’ll fail you situation🤨
This is such an amazing analysis. I was 11 when I started watching adventure time, and it has affected me in so so many ways I feel like. It is a children’s show but the themes of some episodes are really teaching, especially for kids. Like loss, sorrow, happiness, it honestly helped me form my emotions much more clearly as a child. Finn was like my idol in a way because I wanted to speak up for myself more/ speak my mind more clearly after watching him react to things. And the love stuff, oh my, you were spot on, I loved how Fionna and Cake went into more detail on Simon and Betty’s relationship. 🥲 I love this video! Great job ✨
Thank you so much! I feel the same about Adventure Time guiding me through some of the first big emotions, losses, and loves I had as a teen :) And honestly as someone who works in animation now, it's so touching to hear that there were so many other kids who felt the same about the shows we watched.
Funny enough Mordecai from Regular Show also have the same love obsession as Finn's but to a much more simp level extend meanwhile Rigby (despite being a slacker) has much more healthy relationship with Eileen just like Rainicorn and Jake.
I started watching when I was 20 (boomer moment). After the spiral and crash of a 5-year relationship. The two of us were obsessed with each other. I was absolutely shattered emotionally but adventure time helped me cope. The dynamic between Finn and Flame princess really resonated with me. The way two people who love each other can be so fundamentally different that it hurts them when they try to make themselves fit into a relationship together. Also, I LOVE Betty for defying fate, space, time, reality and logic to try to make it work with Simon. I lived vicariously through her Magic Betty arc lol. I truly wish it could have worked 💔
Love that last sentence in the first paragraph. Two people can be in love while wanting to make it work together. But sometimes, love is so complicated that you can't realize how wrong you are for the person you love, and vice versa. I watched this show as a kid. I'm 23 now. But I've since experienced many of these storylines within the setting and context of real life. It's amazing watching it again as an adult for that reason, too.
The history of the crown has a big part to play too, Gunther's deepest desire was to be like Urgence Evergreen in the episode "Evergreen" like all he ever wanted was to be good enough for Evergreen who himself reveals in the episode he mutated Gunther to give him intelligence. A lot could be said about what Gunther's true wish was and why that turns Simon into ice king
From what i remember, he wished to be like ice king so i assume the crown makes anyone who wears it like that one ice king guy but with less agency in their life
this is SUCH A GOOD ANALYSIS!!!!! i would LOVE to see more videos about AT from you! Also, the way Simon & Betty switched in terms of their obsessions with each other in Fionna and Cake... Simon was willing to summon Golb, knowing full well what kind of destructive being it was, all to save Betty. But when they finally met, he found that Betty had moved on. I think it was because when Simon was still the Ice King, he couldn't appreciate or love Betty the way he did before. But once he was back, she was gone, and so he became obsessive to not exactly find her but to return to a normal life. Return to a time where nothing had changed, and they were happy (or at least, he thought she was). Obsession and the difficulty of moving on & processing/accepting change was probably the core idea of Fionna and Cake but I had never considered before that it was also a core idea in Adventure Time as a whole.
Aww thank you so much! This is my first real video essay, and I was really hoping it would find it's audience, I'm so SO glad it did :) This is such an amazing point! I didn't consider just how significant it is that their relationship is bookended by both of them being in altered states that don't allow them to function the same as they used to in the relationship. It definitely deepens the tragedy of their whole story.
My favorite lesson from adventure time was for all of us to stay strong and move forward in the absence of our deepest desires, this was an amazing analysis ^_^ tysm
There is only one timeline where Finn can live without Jake, and even there it took about 50 years... I do wonder how different things would have been had Finn remembered everything with Rosalinen in Pillow World. Also, from what little we saw, she seemed to be really good for him, it was almost like she was like a cross between Jake and Finn in a way. Being someone who put the needs of someone else above her desire to have him stay, but not letting the desire for him to stay becoming her obsession. She loved him, supported him, even if it meant she'd never see him again. I hope she still got to live out her dreams too, unlike Betty. From her lack of bitterness, I could think so.
Finn is such a tragic character because if you think about it he never had a healthy romantic relationship besides the pillow world girl. This is probably why he was the most positive in the series during the pillow world because he had left behind his unhealthy obsessions and became a loving father. However, when he is given the choice to go back he takes it which shows that he hasn't grown enough to have a relationship in his life without some sort of obsession to go along with it. I never stopped feeling sorry for Finn because I think everybody deserves love which is why the state he is in Fiona & Cake is so upsetting. Finn never had anyone he could relate to being the only human, being alone, and longing for love. The character I think Finn would relate to the most would be Ice king/Simon with him being alone as everything that he used to know has changed and moved on. The distant lands finally was truly beautiful because after death, Finn could reunite with the one that never left him even though he became slightly obsessed with him. Finn, of course, became obsessed with Jake as he was the only healthy relationship left in his life so when he lost him Jake basically just spent him time fighting and trying to help to cope with the situation. Finn FINALLY learned after the fight with new death/the lich he can't be obsessed with things anymore and decided to reincarnated/start a new. Finn finally overcame his greatest flaw as a character and to add the cherry on top Jake decided to join Finn, not because of his growth, but because he loves him. Finn is such a tragic character that a lot of people don't give enough credit to and his ending is one of the most beautiful in all of Adventure Time.
@@JohnCena-tp4ghI am so tired of people saying Finn never having a healthy relationship in the end when HW is right there. Just because they don't have a girlfriend/boyfriend or husband/wife relationship doesn't mean they aren't in a healthy, loving relationship with each other. Hell, Jake and Lady is proof of that. Finn's relationship( situationship ) with HW is far healthier than FP, they respect each other boundaries, goals and lifestyles and are very mature yet casual about everything. Finn didn't immediately rebound to HW after a breakdown like he did FP, he never obsess over every little detail about their relationship or choose to keep other option open in case of a break up like he did FP (remember Finn reading JT Doggzone). In the end he was happy being in such relationship with HW which has lasted from him being 16 to 29 while FP only lasted a couple years. The finn in the pillow world was a far more simple and immature finn who grew up in a more simple life in a far more simple world, of course he'd have a happier simpler life compared to the finn who has experienced, trauma, heartbreak, make and grew from his mistakes and overall more matured finn who have learned acceptance and to let go off his obsession and hang ups. Comparing the two's lifes is like comparing that of an ignorant child who never had to matured and grew up in a safe, cushy world(literally) to a war vet who have experience loss and the harsh truth of life, it's not a coincidence that the two most matured version of Finn always end up in a relationship with a version of HW. Aside from Jake's death always being at the back of his mind, Finn lived a happy life with a healthy relationship and that's that
Adventure time came out when I was in my early 20s too. Idk why I was drawn to it, but I found it clever they way they disguised such adult themes in such child like content. Like a children's show with an adult 😉
@@ionlycreatedthissothatican6859Your not far off. Their relationship definitely had a lot going for it, even without the whole traditional marriage and kids thing. All that really would have mattered would be if they had a healthy relationship and they were happy. But that's the problem. He clearly ISN'T happy in the future. He's... Not in a good place at all. Not that a relationship would have fixed everything, but we never see her there for him after Jake died AT ALL or even doing anything together. Which to me indicates that their not that close, maybe not in a situationship at this point. Which seems consistent with what I do know about Huntress Wizard. She doesn't want a relationship to make her soft and she isn't emotionally available in the best of times, little long the worse. More than likely, he pushed her away or she withdrew because he became a drag to hang around. Hell, remember the one mention our Finn made of her? He took Simon to a forest she told Finn specifically to NEVER hunt in, and does exactly that. Kinda seems like something a guy would do if being passive aggressive. He could have even been somewhat in denial about it since he never mentioned a breakup. Or... She was dead by Fiona and Cake. It shows she died in every other timeline we were shown and we never actually saw her. I hope that I'm wrong. And yes, he did go into Pillow World before a lot of traumatic things happened in his life. The doesn't make it impossible to overcome and have a happy life and relationship, just harder. He was making good progress towards that with her before Jake's death. But the fact he died completely alone and still never got over Jake, to the point of subconsciously hoping he would die in every fight he had... Something is seriously wrong there. I HOPE that I'm wrong, I liked them together too, but my gut is telling me it just didn't work for them. Its evident that it would take a lot of time and a lot of support from other loved ones for Finn to live life and find happiness again with Jake gone. And, unfortunately, he clearly didn't get that, even his friends weren't there either (God help me if he managed to push EVERYONE away) I only saw him achieve that once, and that was in Pillow World. It would even be that it wasn't solely Rosalinen's doing, there could have been multiple factors, but her and the family are the main constant we see in that world.
@@KrisRN23935 1. she's not dead, he mentioned going to visit her after the Simon ordeal. And Finn disobeyed warnings and rules for the sake of fun and adventure even from those he's chill with all the time, it's practically in his nature so the your whole "passive aggressive" notion is unsupported especially with how the AT crew is presenting them as almost a multiversal constant. 2. Why are you so obsess with Finn dying alone, did you expect HW to kill herself to go after him? (Considering the couple's philosophy about self improvement and not holding others back, such a thing is unlikely) We were never given confirmation on how he died. For all we know it could've been like Pillow World, dying of old age surrounded by friends and love ones. 3. Yes, Jake's death impacted Finn greatly and it was clear that deep down he still grieved him greatly and never got over it but to say he was unhappy for the rest of his life because of it would do a displeasure to Finn's journey and emotional growth. Finn throughout the entirety of AT has learned to accept change, loss, death and to not let his obsession and desire defined him, and to accept and enjoy life for all of its bad and good. Yes, a part of him was never going to be as happy as it could've due to Jake's absence but to treat it as he was always miserable, depressed and borderline suicidal like Simon is simply not true. He didn't tried to bring Jake back to life or anything like that despite easily could with Prismo. And while his coping mechanism was not the healthiest, compared it to Simon's and you could see he enjoyed his life a hell of a lot more (coping mechanism aren't also inherently bad, they're just a way for people to move on from trauma and live a normal life and considering he died of old age, wise and happy, i'd say it worked out alright). He was still able to have fun and enjoy life as he stated in Together Again, yes deep down he wanted to wait til the day he dies so he could meet Jake but it's not he was a suicidal maniac trying to find the next big thing to kill him, he lived a comfortable and long life to old age and was still happy and content with his life. So in conclusion despite Jake's death and the gaping hole it left in Finn, he was still able to enjoy life to the best of his ability, he wasn't depressed or miserable. He loves and is loved and for all the good that he has done lived a long and relatively happy life with friends and loved ones. To say that he didn't would be to discredit Finn's growth and emotional journey that the series have painstakingly presents to us throughout all of Adventure time.
Lovely! But what about Finn and huntress wizard? I feel like their relationship showed that he matured a lot in his approach to romance, and no longer needed to be consumed by it, but was comfortable with their sort of "attracting forces come and go" type deal. I wanna hear what others think of this
i totally agree with this. i was beyond disappointed to not see any huntresss wizard stuff because i think she was perfect for finn, that relationship to me was him having learned his own flaws and working around them
This video was much needed and contributes a lot to the fandom and how we understand its themes. One of the best things about AT is how the show matures with its audience, but when you go back and revisit it all again, you realize that all the clues were there from the beginning. Thank you for this great video!
Is PB unhinged tho, for the most part she made the optimal choices for ruling her kingdom, it's just that the optimal choices aren't always the moral ones
She created an entire species, gave them sentience, and then committed mass genocide on them because they were too good at following orders. I am talking about the Rattleballs if you didn't know. Also, she created lemon grab which is a being left in perpetual torment and left him to do his own thing. She is a control freak because she crashed Tree-Trunk's wedding and sent everyone attending to jail because no one invited her to the wedding. And the list goes on and on with the situation on Flame princess and the manipulation of Finn...
@@JohnCena-tp4gh they were robots tho, so there is the question here is if she had sufficient reason to believe them to be sentient, or did she believe them to just be faulty, none sentient, robots, that were becoming dangerous to the general population? It might seem like she should know that as their inventor but the thing is machine learning models that are typically used to make modern AIs IRL, like ChatGPT are a black box and the creators often don't know how they actually work, and that was the case all the way back when those episodes were being made too, and something such as ChatGPT, which of course wasn't around back then to inspire them, but primitive language models were, can sound pretty human like despite not actually being sentient, and this is a moral question that we will have to face IRL eventually, that being whether to treat advanced AIs as sentient or not, and if we do treat them as sentient when exactly do they become sentient as opposed to just being code that appears sentient? This specific issue is actually a really complex and nuanced subject IRL and while Rattleballs certainly seemed sentient to me but the important question is did PB think they were sentient? And she was just flat out right about FP, her first kiss nearly destroyed the planet and would have done so if she hadn't arrived there at just the right time with Jake, before being weakened by that poison from her maid she was basically a nuke on two feet, except with a hell of a lot more destructive potential, containment there is not only the logical but also the moral choice if you ask me, I'm also not really sold on the manipulation of Finn thing because she didn't really do much of that, I can only think of 3 examples throughout, having Finn fetch the Encairideon, having Finn do a plan that she knows wouldn't work to get thrown in jail in castle Lemongrab, and sabotaging F&Js plans in the first James episode and while I agree that none of that was moral, but aside from the Encairideon thing the other two were logical choices with a net positive result, of course my memory is fallible just like anybody else's, so if you have more examples or remember those differently I'd love to hear your thoughts, I love talking about geeky stuff, Totally agree on the Lemongrab and TT wedding part tho, but as my reply hopefully illustrated there is more nuance to most of her actions
I agree I am a bonnibel bubblegum defender. She did what she had to do at the time and over time she grew into a better person. She is just overly hated and not really analyzed.
I love that within the show the theme of love and connections expands through different types of relationships! Romantic, platonic, familial, we see so many connects between characters in different ways, the good the bad and the ugly, and my favorite relationship in the whole show is actually Finn and Jake themselves I adore their close loving brotherly best friend relationship it’s so wholesome 🥺
Thank you for this video as someone who grew up with the show and watched it in its entireity this analysis is exactly what i've been looking for. I could relate so deeply to betty in how sacrificial her love was and the way the show gently warns of this kind of dynamic was so refreshing especially as so much media paints women to be suppourtive to mediaocre men as a sign of love/ romance. Can't wait for Fiona and Cake Season 2 !! Love this video sm!
Good video but I just wanted to say that Jake confirmed he never married Lady they are just dating. Even after they had children. Also, Simon was not Betty’s professor, he was just a speaker for her class. He was prob just an graduate student or PHD student (as he is referred to as Doctor) whilst she was undergraduate.
That's exactly it! Thanks for putting it into words! There was something about Adventure Time that fulfilled this need that I had for more complex character writing. The characters are inherently human. Warts and all, they hold a beauty that we only learn to appreciate more and more as we grow older.
I watched adventure time for the first time this year and as a 21 year old man who has been consuming media since i can remember, ive never related to a character more than i relate to Finn. Before watching the show myself i only ever learned about it from friends so I thought it was just a silly cartoon, but watching Finn struggle through life and love and friendship with his only help being his friends and brother really struck a cord in me that made me appreciate this show a lot more than I ever thought I would.
That love has limits that with enough patience and desires to keep breaking someone by changing them due to your actions they will need something more and it’s your fault
Aw thank you! It's the first video essay I've made, but I'm so glad it's getting a good response, I could spend the rest of my LIFE just thinking and talking about those shows!!!
Adventure Time is a series that has always continued to astound me in its themes and takes on so many serious topics. I really respect it for the way it is able to handle so many sensitive topics in such respectable and moving ways. I was older when I got into adventure time, about high school age when the later half of the seasons were airing. (Fun fact the first fionna and cake episode was the first episode I ever fully watched and got me into the series) Simon and Betty were always a relationship that I respected, but clearly saw the problem with their obsession with one another. The way Fionna and Cake handled delving further into that impressed me, and I continue to be moved by this series.
I love love this video, I remember as a kid having an intuition that there was a deeper layer to how AT portrayed love through its characters and now having sort of the full experience it makes all the sense as you put it. Ironically this series taught me so much about love, knowing when I related to some ch and how it wasnt healty and trying to change my attitude. Thank you for making such a great vid, best to you
this analysis associated so deeply with my own personal experience. Although i haven't watched the entire show, i did watch a lot of it with a person i loved very much and i never realized how much it related to our relationship. Thankyou!!
So one thing I’ve learned in this video is that Finn, Ice King, and Betty all have anxious attachment styles that went relatively unchecked. Which, sadly, I can relate to also. Just gotta do our best to learn secure attachment for the sake of those we love, and our own mental health.
this was really good!! the theme of obsession as well as the idea and process of moving on is definitively something i appreciate in AT with the ways that they tackle those ideas, and its nice to see a video essay about it with that being said though (this might just be me being nickpicky?), the text at 4:52 , i feel is very inaccurate of pbs character and honestly a bit grossly/poorly worded. PB does not take advantage or “get off” to finns obsession with her, nor does she enjoy it. At best, she uses him and jake as errand boys because they like going on adventures, but nothing really more than that
Princess Bubblegum isn't stupid meaning that she knew Finn liked her and she obviously played into that to get him to do what she wanted. There is so much evidence of PB being a sick twisted individual as we only need to look at a harmless scene in season 4: the lich. Finn and Jake are tricked by the Lich, which is using Billy's skin as a disguise, to gather all the gems of power to fuel the Enchiridion. When Finn and Jake get Princess Bubblegum's gem we get to see a quick scene of her experimenting on tiny candy people. She made a simulation of a beautiful farm life for a candy family. There was a green candy person (the father) who was working in the fields, a pink candy person (the mother) who was helping plant seeds, and a smaller whitish blue candy person (the child) which was helping decorate the house. Then Princess Bubblegum decides to cut of the legs of the father which then speaks showing that it has sentience. Then PB reattaches the limbs in other locations of the candy father's body but realizes that it can't move anymore so she cuts the limbs off of the candy mother. She attaches the limbs to the father which then is now permanently moving around not really fixing the problem so she decided to cut the child's limbs. Thankfully, Finn and Jake crash into her apartment which stops her from mutilating the candy child. Through all this she does not show the tiniest bit compassion so I start thinking about what she is doing. PB didn't need to make a family like simulation with her candy formula so why then did she create such a thing to then mutilate everything and create such horrific events which don't have any real purpose? She is evil I hate her because not once in the series does she face the consequences of her actions.
@@JohnCena-tp4gh there is a lot to unpack here. first off, yes, she is experimenting on the little candy guys, but they don’t seem to be in any sort of pain or discomfort. even when she cuts off the little limbs they dont seem to mind, and even the green one after having limbs put on them is seen rolling around contently. also to say its immoral of her to make a little “family-like simulation” to “create such horrific events” would also be saying that people that play the sims or kick the buddy are immoral aswell. but even other than that, you said it yourself: its a harmless scene. next, to say she never faces the consequences of her actions and is “evil” is insane to me. Most if not all “evil” or “immoral” actions or aspects of her can be either explained in some way or is apart of her growth as a character because she learns from it, but mainly (and more importantly) the latter. for example, one of the main aspects of pb is that she is a control freak. Not because shes evil or anything like that, but because she’s extremely protective of her citizens and sees them as her family as she built almost all of it from the ground up, not to mention her brother neddy is at the the heart of the kingdom and is extremely vulnerable otherwise. however, this is not to say it doesn’t bite pb in the ass later. because of her being so controlling (but also the candy citizens being kind of dumb lol), shes overthrown democratically and lives with peppermint butler. but, as time passes she realizes how controlling she is over the kingdom after spending most of her time in the cabin. Even if the reason why she is so protective is justified in some way, she acknowledges that if she wants the best for her people, she needs to let go a bit, both for the candies but also for her. for as long as shes been alive, she’s constantly looked out for and governed them and as a result has overworked herself. Another i guess “evil” part of her is that her humor is dark and she has done a lot of questionably unethical things like having constant surveillance on other potentially threatening kingdoms, but it all inevitably comes down to her passion for the candy people and the fact that she is socially awkward as pb raised herself and everyone else almost entirely alone. shes had to teach herself between right or wrong and shes been the one to keep the kingdom together, although its with the help of loved ones that she really begins to grow, which i find very beautiful thematically. it is for these reasons that i admire her character so much. the show isn’t afraid to show her giant flaws despite the lack of malice, but also has her learn and evolve from these flaws. she isn’t perfect by any means, but nobody is, and adventure time shows this. lastly, i want to get into your first point, which states that pb knew of finns crush and used it to her benefit. while she was generally aware of his crush, it was never something pb was exactly fond of. while i don’t remember which episode it was, theres this clip where finn rests his head on her lap. she pushes him off, clearly being uncomfortable and goes away. Not to mention, in the episode “burning low” when hes dating flame princess, pb is talking to finn about how responsibility demands sacrifice. to her, she is referring to how finn shouldn’t kiss flame princess if they don’t want the core of the earth to explode, assuming jake already told him about the specifics. however, to finn, he thinks she’s referring to her liking finn, but this is due to both lack of context and his own immaturity. Later on, pb talks to jake about how the situation at hand is “not some petty love triangle”. This episode, i feel greatly demonstrates pbs feelings towards finns crush and her relationship with that fact. his crush is not a benefit to her in any sort of way, and if anything, is a bit of a hinderance. although she may have teased him in earlier seasons, it was not to great significance and was all in the name of playful fun, assuming he’d grow out of it. Another important thing to note however, is that their dynamic doesn’t stay this way. later on, especially in the episode “the pajama war”, it displays how after both characters (but more so finn) matured over time, their relationship evolved into a much healthier friendship, which i find very sweet (pun intended). they were friends in the beginning, which is why finn and jake run errands for pb. even though finn did have a crush her, his loyalty to the kingdom didnt start there. it started because of his friendship with pb and his moral code, which is something that stays consistent. overall, i highly suggest you rewatch the series. i hope that after watching the show with a different perspective and open mind, you’ll learn to at least appreciate the depth of her character. AT is much more enjoyable that way.
Great video and analysis! Ever since finishing Fionna and Cake the topic of Betty and Simon has been stuck in mind constantly. I found it interesting how slowly you start to notice the one-sided obsession, it never went through my mind that that dynamic was happening in the original series. But the small bits of backstory we are given to Betty and Simon really changes things. The Casper & Nova game narrative was an interesting way to finally reveal that to Simon and anyone who didn't fully see it
this literally made me cryyy - I grew up with Finn too starting at 11-12 years old 😩🥹🥺it’s insane how touched I was seeing this video breaking it down.
Thanks for your essay! It's hard for me to find people my age (or anyone) who are so into Adventure Time, so it's nice to hear opinion on the really heartful universe. It's true there's a real human element to it and it's totally existential, and I wish people would really give it a shot even though the overarching 'plot' doesn't make much sense. It's not really about the plot in my opinion. Just finished re-watching Adventure Time for the first time! Really delicious, I bawled my eyes out at some points, it was really cool cause I didn't remember a lot of it. A treat! Please DO make more essays when you find the time :) A part that really killed me was the universe in Fionna and Cake where the Ice King made a new ice Marceline cause his had presumably died. It shows although he was so cruel to project the insanity of the crown on PB that he still had some humanity left, in a weird, twisted way (he still suggested Simon to make an 'ice Betty') Omg that Distant Lands episode with Finn and Jake also absolutely murdered me. I skipped rewatching them when I rewatched AT again because it's been only a few months, but I think I'll rewatch them now and bawl my eyes out again
congrats, you have pieced together adventure time’s relationships into a neat bullet and shot me right in the feels. It’s honestly given me a better look at my first relationship (it was online too) where I was the one obsessed and really I ended it because I more or less realized that it wasn’t healthy how much care I put into it vs how much less I got in return.
Honestly all of these series have given me more relationship advice that actually applied to my relationships then any other source of media. Usually because I think most of it is about obsession for finding the one or the missing piece to yourself.
Really good analysis! I'd recognized that obsession was a big part of Simon's story in both Adventure Time and in Fionna and Cake, but I hadn't connected that to Finn's journey. You're right, Finn has always been a very obsession based character and not just in romantic relationships. The way he handled finding his human parents was pretty unhealthy, it's just difficult to categorize it like that because that single-minded, "get it done at any cost" attitude is so common for heroes. When I finally sat down and watched the whole show instead of catching random episodes on TV, I thought that Betty and Ice King's interactions were really interesting but also really sad. So much of Ice King's personal storyline was about accepting that people change as time goes on - with his insanity being a metaphor for any number of mental illnesses and diseases - but just because they act differently now doesn't mean that who they were to you before didn't matter or that you should abandon them for the sake of your own comfort. Ice King only starts to get better and to develop as a character once Finn and Jake stop antagonizing him all the time and once Marceline stops continually running away. I really resonated with his message of "people get better when they're given external love and support". He seemed like he was on a really good path towards accepting himself for who he is until Betty came in and declared with every interaction "Who you are now is bad! I'm going to bring back the man you were before you got sick!" And the show really seemed to push the message that this was wrong! This was not a healthy dynamic and it was not good for either of them for her to keep trying to undo what had happened. We could see this by how Betty continually got madder and sadder herself the further she went down this path. There was even an episode where Betty accepted him as Ice King (or seemed to, I don't exactly remember) that showed us how happy the two of them could be if she let go of this obsession. Ice King was happier than we'd ever seen him be in those moments. Until the end of the show where it suddenly seemed to say "ah, just kidding. Simon is the happy ending here, not Ice King". So I was really glad that Fionna and Cake got to unpack that later. Sorry for the essay. I just really liked how these two were handled by the writers.
one of my favorite analysis vids!! You have such a nice voice and your sense of humor is perfect for the tone of video. I would love to hear more of your thoughts on the show ❤ Definitely sharing this with my friends when we finish it together ❤❤❤
Really incredible analysis I really enjoyed this video!!! so so good, i feel dumb for not even picking up on this running theme of obsession and love thru out the show but i guess that just highlights how layered adventure time is! ughhh i just love this show so much and this video really like made me feel all emotional about it thank u for making such a great video!!
I watched this video a week ago and have been thinking about it every night since. I just finished rewatching Adventure Time a couple of weeks ago and your insight made me look at the show from a completely different perspective! PLEASE make more Adventure Time content!
i absolutely loved this video i had always realized these things but you put it terrifically, and made such wise sense of the relationship aspects of the show, thank you for your point of view it was truly enriching.
Honestly such a great take on the underlying narrative of the whole show. I always loved the themes and how they subtly slide things in the show under the guise of cartoony adventure and quirkiness but never noticed the throughout concept as they laid it so well, obsession in the space of love and how personable it is for each character and their backstories etc, is the very tone of the show!!!! Love love love this analysis!!!
I really loved this video, AT is one of my favorite pieces of media in the world, but I never really looked at it from this angle before and it kind of recontextualizes the way i feel about the series while strengthening my love for it. Anyway great video, great analysis, hope to see more from you
I’d love more of these videos! Even if u got more ideas that isn’t adventure time, I really liked how u made this video. It’d be great to hear u make more 😁
I loved the way you talked about this show. It made me feel less alone in a way, since not many people get the appeal of Adventure Time like this. It’s an experience that is unique to all who grew up watching it, so thank you for making this video that goes so in depth and shows the love you have for it. ❤
great video!! another perspective to bolster what your saying, Ice king and Marcy’s relationship feels a lot like an allegory for a parent having an addiction, which very much plays in to all the themes you’re mentioning, Simon literally could not overcome his obsession to Marcy’s sake, no matter how hard he tried or wished it to be different
ending on that “human” note for finn was so beautiful and so natural. i dont normally comment on videos but damn this was so well made!! glad this came up in my recommended :)
I rarely comment on videos, this one was fantastic. AT is a part of my life forever and your perspective is something like you said I intrinsically understood but haven’t put into words. I hope to keep seeing content from you thank you so much for the video You are appreciated 🙏🏾
This is an incredible dissection of all the love things that are going on in Adventure Time, and especially with like Betty and Simon, I should send this to a couple of my friends, this video specifically cuz I feel like some of my friends have problems with obsession, and them being obsessed in their own relationships, and how tho it's is a form of love, it should be dissected why your form of love is obsession, and how it can be extremely unhealthy for both parties. And the show does like mostly show romantic love, but I think this applies to platonic love, because though I joke with like myself, and in all the recordings I've done, that I'm obsessed with my best friend, I know that I'm not, and I know that even though I do think about them frequently, I have other things that are me far outside of the reach of my best friend, and this video is really good for like self analyzing at least for me. This was a good video, so thank you for making it. 💛
I love your take on obsession!!! I can also add that adventure time’s philosophy, generally made me feel so much better about myself (probably because of the hurt I got from unhealthy relationships) AND if you hadn’t pointed out the subject I wouldn’t have known about the sequels!!! Thank You!!!!!
I haven't seen all of adventure Time or any of Fiona and cake, but this video was very enjoyable to watch. It is kind of funny when you look at adventure Time from this perspective how completely oblivious I was as a teenager watching. Please make more videos like this!
This video meant a lot to me. I absolutely adore Adventure Time, but even my friends and fiancée who also like the show simply aren’t as invested in the subplot and themes as I’d like to talk with them about lol. Definitely looking forward to more of this content from you!
Adventure time was really good at leaving bread crumbs of concepts that just leave you feeling a void, and that lead me to think more on those concepts and was lead onto growth in my view of various philosophical and realistic points of view on love and other topics the show touched upon.
Really enjoyed this video and your perspective on it, would really like it if you did more Video Essays! The way you adress these topics and how it makes you feel adds realness to it and thats the energy and passion that resonates throughout this video. One suggestion I think during the beginning is that the audio was slightly off, try keeping I dont know if it was your phone or external recorder to a minimum of -6db and then fluff it about it in post, eeally simple to do
this video is amazing I've heard pretty much every theory but to hear a new one so thought out is amazing and i've always felt like Adventure time was always trying to force a theme of love no matter if it was good or bad, but couldn't see where it connected. This is amazing!
The reveal that Simon was once human made me feel so bad for him- learning moments later that he called Betty “My Princess” made me feel even worse. I love rewatching the series and seeing Finn instantly change to calling him Simon after the episode
I know!! The reveal that REALLY changed the show forever😭 I remember noticing Finn calling him Simon especially in the arc where he stays at the treehouse with them for a while
he always struck me as that demented uncle that sometimes come babysit but the kids don't like him because of his weird behaviour and the adults don't like him watching the kids either because he lets them get away with all kinds of bad behaviour
what season is that revealed in?
@@luanamariamusat4920 Mid season 3!
Right, in the early seasons ice King was depicted as a creep and clowning villain, but later its revealed that he was really a hero. Simon knew the using the crown would scramble his mind, but he willingly turned himself into a mental health patient to save Marceline
Honestly it's kinda sad how Finn as a human growing up in a dog family had to deal with both his parents and his brothers growing old and dying much faster than he did. And Jake could have lived with Lady Rainycorn or even on his own like their brother did, since he was an adult already, but he didn't, because he understood that Finn is still a child who needs his family, despite them being the same age. It's honestly quite impressive how Jake managed to retain his sense of self and have a healthy relationship with Finn (on his end) while sacrificing so much of his independence to take care of him. He took on that parental role but he did it out of pure love for Finn and he never lost sight of who he was and what life he wanted and that paints a beautiful parallel to basically every other relationship in the show.
I would like to add that at some point (I think when Finn turns like 15) Jake starts to go on his own more often, let Finn solve his own problems and to learn how to be more independent and I love that. Even when Finn did that one tower to rip off his dad's arm, when Jake saw PB try to fix Finn's problem he told her "he'll manage on his own" and I love that from Jake, as Finn grew older he tried to give him more space and independence
i never thought of this perspective and u have s;ightly changed my view on jake :(
The way Adventure Time treats romance and relationships is something I will always love, but its because it doesn't try to make it look easy or tell us its something we need to have in our lives. It portrays it as messy, something you'll only ever get the hang of by going through it. It doesn't say what's right or wrong, instead warning us that its delicate, and easy to mess up even while you're trying to do something you believe with all your heart is good.
I would like to say that Jake and Lady Rainicorn are not actually married, which I think is good to note since their love is just as important regardless
Jake points that out to Finn in no uncertain terms.
@@ChiggerJake confirmed that he is NOT married to Lady in season 7 episode 1 titled Bonnie and Neddy, Jake tells King of OOO that lady is his girlfriend and he doesn’t have any wives.
They are effectively married without actually being married
the reason Jake and Lady aren't married isn't a in-universe reason, (although you certainly can head-canon some) it's because CN didn't like the idea of a magical dog marrying a rainbow horse. which like, i guess is pretty out there. but children have no concept of the institution of marriage, they just know what being married is.
@@tyrannosarcophagous3447do you have a source for that? Because I think that if that made them uncomfortable, they definitely wouldn't have made them have kids
As a teen, I thought of Jake as a brother figure... as an adult, I def see Jake as a father figure. Finn having daddy issues (in addition to other attachment issues) made Jake's presence extra meaningful (and maybe even stunted Finn). My 2cents.
I also want to say... this essay video is really well done. Thanks for recording this. I appreciate hearing ideas that I'm maybe not equipped to come up with myself. you really nailed it.
When I was a kid, I also thought of Jake as a father figure for Finn, sinse he's usually more chill and wise than Finn. I had to re watch the show as an adult to nice that they were actually brother brothers hehee
The notion that men are “stunted” when they have a positive male support figure in their life sure is a weird one.
It always seemed like a joke to me how people believe boys are supposed to become men all on their own. Like we are Spartans sending them through Agoge or some shit
I think fin is obsessive not only with his relationships, I think he's obsessed in general, and that is one of he's biggest flaws and characterization.
I mean kinda makes sense. He’s never known other humans and human interaction. Or interaction in general outside of Jake most his life that turns into literally saving princesses and adventures. He only knows of dealing with people in extremes. Kinda makes sense he’s so obsessive is all I’m saying he never got healthy interaction with others much less other women
he is a simp
I feel like theres also this contrast between Maceline and Betty when it came to obsession vs a healthy relationship with simon and the ice king. Betty loved Simon, and when she saw him become the ice king, she saw the ice king not as a person, but as a symptom; something that needed to be treated. and she became obsessive with doing everything in her power to bring back the man she gave her life for, back to being Simon. on the other hand Marceline knew Simon, and watched as he sacrificed himself to protect her. And when Simon became the ice king, instead of resenting this new vision of him that took Simon away, she excepted and cared for him as the ice king and as Simon. tho marcy did get mad at the beginning of the show that the ice king didn’t remember her or did crazy, messed up things, over the period of the show she got to learn more about the ice king, and started to care for him because of who he was, not just because he was Simon. while betty tried to find piece with the ice king, she was so obsessed that he used to be Simon and couldn’t accept the ice king as a person, becoming even more obsessed to change him back.
this TT
Love this analysis. It really tore me up seeing 30s Finn being so hurt and just "keeping busy", thats he's unable to actually help others. I think the pain of losing someone so close will remain forever, but I hope he was able to find happiness before he dies in Together Again.
The reveal at the end of Fionna & Cake that Simon may have gotten a different "ending" if he'd cared more about Nova/Betty's choices both in the game and in their lives, or considered that their love was part obsession literally had my jaw on the floor!!!
Simon struck me as somebody who was not very well established in his field when they met so he’s probably around 26ish and Betty seemed like she was in school for a while so she’s probably in her 20s as well. Also she was never his direct student he gave one lecture in her class and she was a fan of his probably because he tackled obscure things🤔 so it was never a do this or I’ll fail you situation🤨
Yeah this is totally how I see it
Yes, I read it as he was not her professor, rather an independent scientist whose lecture she has attended.
in adventure time he said he was 47 in the "simon and marcy" episode
@@zaray6339Although we know that he was half way through of becoming the Ice King at that point, so perhaps he was a lot older than when he met Betty
@@zaray6339 but it’s unknown for how long him and Betty were together since they’ve met. And Betty’s age is also undefined
This is such an amazing analysis. I was 11 when I started watching adventure time, and it has affected me in so so many ways I feel like. It is a children’s show but the themes of some episodes are really teaching, especially for kids. Like loss, sorrow, happiness, it honestly helped me form my emotions much more clearly as a child. Finn was like my idol in a way because I wanted to speak up for myself more/ speak my mind more clearly after watching him react to things. And the love stuff, oh my, you were spot on, I loved how Fionna and Cake went into more detail on Simon and Betty’s relationship. 🥲 I love this video! Great job ✨
Thank you so much! I feel the same about Adventure Time guiding me through some of the first big emotions, losses, and loves I had as a teen :) And honestly as someone who works in animation now, it's so touching to hear that there were so many other kids who felt the same about the shows we watched.
Funny enough Mordecai from Regular Show also have the same love obsession as Finn's but to a much more simp level extend meanwhile Rigby (despite being a slacker) has much more healthy relationship with Eileen just like Rainicorn and Jake.
ohhh you're right lol!!
You know I just noticed it's interesting how both Finn and the lich rip off their flesh when they begin to break down.
"lack the maturity to understand " perfectly describes why i had emotional issues after my parents divorce but could never grasp them properly
I started watching when I was 20 (boomer moment). After the spiral and crash of a 5-year relationship. The two of us were obsessed with each other. I was absolutely shattered emotionally but adventure time helped me cope. The dynamic between Finn and Flame princess really resonated with me. The way two people who love each other can be so fundamentally different that it hurts them when they try to make themselves fit into a relationship together.
Also, I LOVE Betty for defying fate, space, time, reality and logic to try to make it work with Simon. I lived vicariously through her Magic Betty arc lol. I truly wish it could have worked 💔
Love that last sentence in the first paragraph. Two people can be in love while wanting to make it work together. But sometimes, love is so complicated that you can't realize how wrong you are for the person you love, and vice versa.
I watched this show as a kid. I'm 23 now. But I've since experienced many of these storylines within the setting and context of real life. It's amazing watching it again as an adult for that reason, too.
The history of the crown has a big part to play too, Gunther's deepest desire was to be like Urgence Evergreen in the episode "Evergreen" like all he ever wanted was to be good enough for Evergreen who himself reveals in the episode he mutated Gunther to give him intelligence. A lot could be said about what Gunther's true wish was and why that turns Simon into ice king
Like the reason Ice king calls the penguins gunther is because of dino Gunther's wish...Orgalorg aint gunther lmao
From what i remember, he wished to be like ice king so i assume the crown makes anyone who wears it like that one ice king guy but with less agency in their life
this is SUCH A GOOD ANALYSIS!!!!! i would LOVE to see more videos about AT from you! Also, the way Simon & Betty switched in terms of their obsessions with each other in Fionna and Cake... Simon was willing to summon Golb, knowing full well what kind of destructive being it was, all to save Betty. But when they finally met, he found that Betty had moved on. I think it was because when Simon was still the Ice King, he couldn't appreciate or love Betty the way he did before. But once he was back, she was gone, and so he became obsessive to not exactly find her but to return to a normal life. Return to a time where nothing had changed, and they were happy (or at least, he thought she was). Obsession and the difficulty of moving on & processing/accepting change was probably the core idea of Fionna and Cake but I had never considered before that it was also a core idea in Adventure Time as a whole.
Aww thank you so much! This is my first real video essay, and I was really hoping it would find it's audience, I'm so SO glad it did :) This is such an amazing point! I didn't consider just how significant it is that their relationship is bookended by both of them being in altered states that don't allow them to function the same as they used to in the relationship. It definitely deepens the tragedy of their whole story.
My favorite lesson from adventure time was for all of us to stay strong and move forward in the absence of our deepest desires, this was an amazing analysis ^_^ tysm
There is only one timeline where Finn can live without Jake, and even there it took about 50 years... I do wonder how different things would have been had Finn remembered everything with Rosalinen in Pillow World. Also, from what little we saw, she seemed to be really good for him, it was almost like she was like a cross between Jake and Finn in a way. Being someone who put the needs of someone else above her desire to have him stay, but not letting the desire for him to stay becoming her obsession. She loved him, supported him, even if it meant she'd never see him again. I hope she still got to live out her dreams too, unlike Betty. From her lack of bitterness, I could think so.
Finn is such a tragic character because if you think about it he never had a healthy romantic relationship besides the pillow world girl. This is probably why he was the most positive in the series during the pillow world because he had left behind his unhealthy obsessions and became a loving father. However, when he is given the choice to go back he takes it which shows that he hasn't grown enough to have a relationship in his life without some sort of obsession to go along with it. I never stopped feeling sorry for Finn because I think everybody deserves love which is why the state he is in Fiona & Cake is so upsetting. Finn never had anyone he could relate to being the only human, being alone, and longing for love. The character I think Finn would relate to the most would be Ice king/Simon with him being alone as everything that he used to know has changed and moved on. The distant lands finally was truly beautiful because after death, Finn could reunite with the one that never left him even though he became slightly obsessed with him. Finn, of course, became obsessed with Jake as he was the only healthy relationship left in his life so when he lost him Jake basically just spent him time fighting and trying to help to cope with the situation. Finn FINALLY learned after the fight with new death/the lich he can't be obsessed with things anymore and decided to reincarnated/start a new. Finn finally overcame his greatest flaw as a character and to add the cherry on top Jake decided to join Finn, not because of his growth, but because he loves him. Finn is such a tragic character that a lot of people don't give enough credit to and his ending is one of the most beautiful in all of Adventure Time.
@@JohnCena-tp4ghI am so tired of people saying Finn never having a healthy relationship in the end when HW is right there. Just because they don't have a girlfriend/boyfriend or husband/wife relationship doesn't mean they aren't in a healthy, loving relationship with each other. Hell, Jake and Lady is proof of that. Finn's relationship( situationship ) with HW is far healthier than FP, they respect each other boundaries, goals and lifestyles and are very mature yet casual about everything. Finn didn't immediately rebound to HW after a breakdown like he did FP, he never obsess over every little detail about their relationship or choose to keep other option open in case of a break up like he did FP (remember Finn reading JT Doggzone). In the end he was happy being in such relationship with HW which has lasted from him being 16 to 29 while FP only lasted a couple years. The finn in the pillow world was a far more simple and immature finn who grew up in a more simple life in a far more simple world, of course he'd have a happier simpler life compared to the finn who has experienced, trauma, heartbreak, make and grew from his mistakes and overall more matured finn who have learned acceptance and to let go off his obsession and hang ups. Comparing the two's lifes is like comparing that of an ignorant child who never had to matured and grew up in a safe, cushy world(literally) to a war vet who have experience loss and the harsh truth of life, it's not a coincidence that the two most matured version of Finn always end up in a relationship with a version of HW. Aside from Jake's death always being at the back of his mind, Finn lived a happy life with a healthy relationship and that's that
Adventure time came out when I was in my early 20s too. Idk why I was drawn to it, but I found it clever they way they disguised such adult themes in such child like content. Like a children's show with an adult 😉
@@ionlycreatedthissothatican6859Your not far off. Their relationship definitely had a lot going for it, even without the whole traditional marriage and kids thing. All that really would have mattered would be if they had a healthy relationship and they were happy. But that's the problem. He clearly ISN'T happy in the future. He's... Not in a good place at all. Not that a relationship would have fixed everything, but we never see her there for him after Jake died AT ALL or even doing anything together. Which to me indicates that their not that close, maybe not in a situationship at this point. Which seems consistent with what I do know about Huntress Wizard. She doesn't want a relationship to make her soft and she isn't emotionally available in the best of times, little long the worse. More than likely, he pushed her away or she withdrew because he became a drag to hang around. Hell, remember the one mention our Finn made of her? He took Simon to a forest she told Finn specifically to NEVER hunt in, and does exactly that. Kinda seems like something a guy would do if being passive aggressive. He could have even been somewhat in denial about it since he never mentioned a breakup. Or... She was dead by Fiona and Cake. It shows she died in every other timeline we were shown and we never actually saw her. I hope that I'm wrong. And yes, he did go into Pillow World before a lot of traumatic things happened in his life. The doesn't make it impossible to overcome and have a happy life and relationship, just harder. He was making good progress towards that with her before Jake's death. But the fact he died completely alone and still never got over Jake, to the point of subconsciously hoping he would die in every fight he had... Something is seriously wrong there. I HOPE that I'm wrong, I liked them together too, but my gut is telling me it just didn't work for them. Its evident that it would take a lot of time and a lot of support from other loved ones for Finn to live life and find happiness again with Jake gone. And, unfortunately, he clearly didn't get that, even his friends weren't there either (God help me if he managed to push EVERYONE away) I only saw him achieve that once, and that was in Pillow World. It would even be that it wasn't solely Rosalinen's doing, there could have been multiple factors, but her and the family are the main constant we see in that world.
@@KrisRN23935 1. she's not dead, he mentioned going to visit her after the Simon ordeal. And Finn disobeyed warnings and rules for the sake of fun and adventure even from those he's chill with all the time, it's practically in his nature so the your whole "passive aggressive" notion is unsupported especially with how the AT crew is presenting them as almost a multiversal constant.
2. Why are you so obsess with Finn dying alone, did you expect HW to kill herself to go after him? (Considering the couple's philosophy about self improvement and not holding others back, such a thing is unlikely) We were never given confirmation on how he died. For all we know it could've been like Pillow World, dying of old age surrounded by friends and love ones.
3. Yes, Jake's death impacted Finn greatly and it was clear that deep down he still grieved him greatly and never got over it but to say he was unhappy for the rest of his life because of it would do a displeasure to Finn's journey and emotional growth. Finn throughout the entirety of AT has learned to accept change, loss, death and to not let his obsession and desire defined him, and to accept and enjoy life for all of its bad and good. Yes, a part of him was never going to be as happy as it could've due to Jake's absence but to treat it as he was always miserable, depressed and borderline suicidal like Simon is simply not true. He didn't tried to bring Jake back to life or anything like that despite easily could with Prismo. And while his coping mechanism was not the healthiest, compared it to Simon's and you could see he enjoyed his life a hell of a lot more (coping mechanism aren't also inherently bad, they're just a way for people to move on from trauma and live a normal life and considering he died of old age, wise and happy, i'd say it worked out alright). He was still able to have fun and enjoy life as he stated in Together Again, yes deep down he wanted to wait til the day he dies so he could meet Jake but it's not he was a suicidal maniac trying to find the next big thing to kill him, he lived a comfortable and long life to old age and was still happy and content with his life.
So in conclusion despite Jake's death and the gaping hole it left in Finn, he was still able to enjoy life to the best of his ability, he wasn't depressed or miserable. He loves and is loved and for all the good that he has done lived a long and relatively happy life with friends and loved ones. To say that he didn't would be to discredit Finn's growth and emotional journey that the series have painstakingly presents to us throughout all of Adventure time.
Lovely! But what about Finn and huntress wizard? I feel like their relationship showed that he matured a lot in his approach to romance, and no longer needed to be consumed by it, but was comfortable with their sort of "attracting forces come and go" type deal. I wanna hear what others think of this
i totally agree with this. i was beyond disappointed to not see any huntresss wizard stuff because i think she was perfect for finn, that relationship to me was him having learned his own flaws and working around them
This video was much needed and contributes a lot to the fandom and how we understand its themes. One of the best things about AT is how the show matures with its audience, but when you go back and revisit it all again, you realize that all the clues were there from the beginning. Thank you for this great video!
Is PB unhinged tho, for the most part she made the optimal choices for ruling her kingdom, it's just that the optimal choices aren't always the moral ones
I’ll never defend PB and that’s my line in the sand🤣 but everyone is welcome to their own interpretations
She created an entire species, gave them sentience, and then committed mass genocide on them because they were too good at following orders. I am talking about the Rattleballs if you didn't know. Also, she created lemon grab which is a being left in perpetual torment and left him to do his own thing. She is a control freak because she crashed Tree-Trunk's wedding and sent everyone attending to jail because no one invited her to the wedding. And the list goes on and on with the situation on Flame princess and the manipulation of Finn...
@@JohnCena-tp4gh they were robots tho, so there is the question here is if she had sufficient reason to believe them to be sentient, or did she believe them to just be faulty, none sentient, robots, that were becoming dangerous to the general population?
It might seem like she should know that as their inventor but the thing is machine learning models that are typically used to make modern AIs IRL, like ChatGPT are a black box and the creators often don't know how they actually work, and that was the case all the way back when those episodes were being made too, and something such as ChatGPT, which of course wasn't around back then to inspire them, but primitive language models were, can sound pretty human like despite not actually being sentient, and this is a moral question that we will have to face IRL eventually, that being whether to treat advanced AIs as sentient or not, and if we do treat them as sentient when exactly do they become sentient as opposed to just being code that appears sentient?
This specific issue is actually a really complex and nuanced subject IRL and while Rattleballs certainly seemed sentient to me but the important question is did PB think they were sentient?
And she was just flat out right about FP, her first kiss nearly destroyed the planet and would have done so if she hadn't arrived there at just the right time with Jake, before being weakened by that poison from her maid she was basically a nuke on two feet, except with a hell of a lot more destructive potential, containment there is not only the logical but also the moral choice if you ask me,
I'm also not really sold on the manipulation of Finn thing because she didn't really do much of that, I can only think of 3 examples throughout, having Finn fetch the Encairideon, having Finn do a plan that she knows wouldn't work to get thrown in jail in castle Lemongrab, and sabotaging F&Js plans in the first James episode and while I agree that none of that was moral, but aside from the Encairideon thing the other two were logical choices with a net positive result, of course my memory is fallible just like anybody else's, so if you have more examples or remember those differently I'd love to hear your thoughts, I love talking about geeky stuff,
Totally agree on the Lemongrab and TT wedding part tho, but as my reply hopefully illustrated there is more nuance to most of her actions
@@JohnCena-tp4ghpretty much all of that would apply to the Christian god as well though yk?
I agree I am a bonnibel bubblegum defender. She did what she had to do at the time and over time she grew into a better person. She is just overly hated and not really analyzed.
wow this is spot on i didn’t think about how prevalent the theme is in the OG show but it really is
Obsession isn’t love, I wish I knew that a long time ago thank you for this
I love that within the show the theme of love and connections expands through different types of relationships! Romantic, platonic, familial, we see so many connects between characters in different ways, the good the bad and the ugly, and my favorite relationship in the whole show is actually Finn and Jake themselves I adore their close loving brotherly best friend relationship it’s so wholesome 🥺
Thank you for this video as someone who grew up with the show and watched it in its entireity this analysis is exactly what i've been looking for. I could relate so deeply to betty in how sacrificial her love was and the way the show gently warns of this kind of dynamic was so refreshing especially as so much media paints women to be suppourtive to mediaocre men as a sign of love/ romance. Can't wait for Fiona and Cake Season 2 !! Love this video sm!
Good video but I just wanted to say that Jake confirmed he never married Lady they are just dating. Even after they had children. Also, Simon was not Betty’s professor, he was just a speaker for her class. He was prob just an graduate student or PHD student (as he is referred to as Doctor) whilst she was undergraduate.
That's exactly it! Thanks for putting it into words! There was something about Adventure Time that fulfilled this need that I had for more complex character writing. The characters are inherently human. Warts and all, they hold a beauty that we only learn to appreciate more and more as we grow older.
I watched adventure time for the first time this year and as a 21 year old man who has been consuming media since i can remember, ive never related to a character more than i relate to Finn. Before watching the show myself i only ever learned about it from friends so I thought it was just a silly cartoon, but watching Finn struggle through life and love and friendship with his only help being his friends and brother really struck a cord in me that made me appreciate this show a lot more than I ever thought I would.
That love has limits that with enough patience and desires to keep breaking someone by changing them due to your actions they will need something more and it’s your fault
This is the first video I've seen of yours, but I love it! Adventure time and Steven universe are series I could over analyze forever.
Aw thank you! It's the first video essay I've made, but I'm so glad it's getting a good response, I could spend the rest of my LIFE just thinking and talking about those shows!!!
@@fayemaybe ♥
The way Betty holds his hand with two hands further cementing that she is all in holding on tightly while Simon passively allows her to 24:57
Adventure Time is a series that has always continued to astound me in its themes and takes on so many serious topics. I really respect it for the way it is able to handle so many sensitive topics in such respectable and moving ways.
I was older when I got into adventure time, about high school age when the later half of the seasons were airing. (Fun fact the first fionna and cake episode was the first episode I ever fully watched and got me into the series) Simon and Betty were always a relationship that I respected, but clearly saw the problem with their obsession with one another. The way Fionna and Cake handled delving further into that impressed me, and I continue to be moved by this series.
I love love this video, I remember as a kid having an intuition that there was a deeper layer to how AT portrayed love through its characters and now having sort of the full experience it makes all the sense as you put it. Ironically this series taught me so much about love, knowing when I related to some ch and how it wasnt healty and trying to change my attitude. Thank you for making such a great vid, best to you
this analysis associated so deeply with my own personal experience. Although i haven't watched the entire show, i did watch a lot of it with a person i loved very much and i never realized how much it related to our relationship. Thankyou!!
So one thing I’ve learned in this video is that Finn, Ice King, and Betty all have anxious attachment styles that went relatively unchecked. Which, sadly, I can relate to also. Just gotta do our best to learn secure attachment for the sake of those we love, and our own mental health.
this was really good!! the theme of obsession as well as the idea and process of moving on is definitively something i appreciate in AT with the ways that they tackle those ideas, and its nice to see a video essay about it
with that being said though (this might just be me being nickpicky?), the text at 4:52 , i feel is very inaccurate of pbs character and honestly a bit grossly/poorly worded. PB does not take advantage or “get off” to finns obsession with her, nor does she enjoy it. At best, she uses him and jake as errand boys because they like going on adventures, but nothing really more than that
Princess Bubblegum isn't stupid meaning that she knew Finn liked her and she obviously played into that to get him to do what she wanted. There is so much evidence of PB being a sick twisted individual as we only need to look at a harmless scene in season 4: the lich. Finn and Jake are tricked by the Lich, which is using Billy's skin as a disguise, to gather all the gems of power to fuel the Enchiridion. When Finn and Jake get Princess Bubblegum's gem we get to see a quick scene of her experimenting on tiny candy people. She made a simulation of a beautiful farm life for a candy family. There was a green candy person (the father) who was working in the fields, a pink candy person (the mother) who was helping plant seeds, and a smaller whitish blue candy person (the child) which was helping decorate the house. Then Princess Bubblegum decides to cut of the legs of the father which then speaks showing that it has sentience. Then PB reattaches the limbs in other locations of the candy father's body but realizes that it can't move anymore so she cuts the limbs off of the candy mother. She attaches the limbs to the father which then is now permanently moving around not really fixing the problem so she decided to cut the child's limbs. Thankfully, Finn and Jake crash into her apartment which stops her from mutilating the candy child. Through all this she does not show the tiniest bit compassion so I start thinking about what she is doing. PB didn't need to make a family like simulation with her candy formula so why then did she create such a thing to then mutilate everything and create such horrific events which don't have any real purpose? She is evil I hate her because not once in the series does she face the consequences of her actions.
@@JohnCena-tp4gh there is a lot to unpack here.
first off, yes, she is experimenting on the little candy guys, but they don’t seem to be in any sort of pain or discomfort. even when she cuts off the little limbs they dont seem to mind, and even the green one after having limbs put on them is seen rolling around contently. also to say its immoral of her to make a little “family-like simulation” to “create such horrific events” would also be saying that people that play the sims or kick the buddy are immoral aswell. but even other than that, you said it yourself: its a harmless scene.
next, to say she never faces the consequences of her actions and is “evil” is insane to me. Most if not all “evil” or “immoral” actions or aspects of her can be either explained in some way or is apart of her growth as a character because she learns from it, but mainly (and more importantly) the latter.
for example, one of the main aspects of pb is that she is a control freak. Not because shes evil or anything like that, but because she’s extremely protective of her citizens and sees them as her family as she built almost all of it from the ground up, not to mention her brother neddy is at the the heart of the kingdom and is extremely vulnerable otherwise. however, this is not to say it doesn’t bite pb in the ass later. because of her being so controlling (but also the candy citizens being kind of dumb lol), shes overthrown democratically and lives with peppermint butler. but, as time passes she realizes how controlling she is over the kingdom after spending most of her time in the cabin. Even if the reason why she is so protective is justified in some way, she acknowledges that if she wants the best for her people, she needs to let go a bit, both for the candies but also for her. for as long as shes been alive, she’s constantly looked out for and governed them and as a result has overworked herself.
Another i guess “evil” part of her is that her humor is dark and she has done a lot of questionably unethical things like having constant surveillance on other potentially threatening kingdoms, but it all inevitably comes down to her passion for the candy people and the fact that she is socially awkward as pb raised herself and everyone else almost entirely alone. shes had to teach herself between right or wrong and shes been the one to keep the kingdom together, although its with the help of loved ones that she really begins to grow, which i find very beautiful thematically.
it is for these reasons that i admire her character so much. the show isn’t afraid to show her giant flaws despite the lack of malice, but also has her learn and evolve from these flaws. she isn’t perfect by any means, but nobody is, and adventure time shows this.
lastly, i want to get into your first point, which states that pb knew of finns crush and used it to her benefit. while she was generally aware of his crush, it was never something pb was exactly fond of. while i don’t remember which episode it was, theres this clip where finn rests his head on her lap. she pushes him off, clearly being uncomfortable and goes away.
Not to mention, in the episode “burning low” when hes dating flame princess, pb is talking to finn about how responsibility demands sacrifice. to her, she is referring to how finn shouldn’t kiss flame princess if they don’t want the core of the earth to explode, assuming jake already told him about the specifics. however, to finn, he thinks she’s referring to her liking finn, but this is due to both lack of context and his own immaturity. Later on, pb talks to jake about how the situation at hand is “not some petty love triangle”. This episode, i feel greatly demonstrates pbs feelings towards finns crush and her relationship with that fact. his crush is not a benefit to her in any sort of way, and if anything, is a bit of a hinderance. although she may have teased him in earlier seasons, it was not to great significance and was all in the name of playful fun, assuming he’d grow out of it.
Another important thing to note however, is that their dynamic doesn’t stay this way. later on, especially in the episode “the pajama war”, it displays how after both characters (but more so finn) matured over time, their relationship evolved into a much healthier friendship, which i find very sweet (pun intended).
they were friends in the beginning, which is why finn and jake run errands for pb. even though finn did have a crush her, his loyalty to the kingdom didnt start there. it started because of his friendship with pb and his moral code, which is something that stays consistent.
overall, i highly suggest you rewatch the series. i hope that after watching the show with a different perspective and open mind, you’ll learn to at least appreciate the depth of her character. AT is much more enjoyable that way.
Great video and analysis! Ever since finishing Fionna and Cake the topic of Betty and Simon has been stuck in mind constantly. I found it interesting how slowly you start to notice the one-sided obsession, it never went through my mind that that dynamic was happening in the original series. But the small bits of backstory we are given to Betty and Simon really changes things. The Casper & Nova game narrative was an interesting way to finally reveal that to Simon and anyone who didn't fully see it
this literally made me cryyy - I grew up with Finn too starting at 11-12 years old 😩🥹🥺it’s insane how touched I was seeing this video breaking it down.
Thanks for your essay! It's hard for me to find people my age (or anyone) who are so into Adventure Time, so it's nice to hear opinion on the really heartful universe. It's true there's a real human element to it and it's totally existential, and I wish people would really give it a shot even though the overarching 'plot' doesn't make much sense.
It's not really about the plot in my opinion.
Just finished re-watching Adventure Time for the first time! Really delicious, I bawled my eyes out at some points, it was really cool cause I didn't remember a lot of it. A treat!
Please DO make more essays when you find the time :) A part that really killed me was the universe in Fionna and Cake where the Ice King made a new ice Marceline cause his had presumably died. It shows although he was so cruel to project the insanity of the crown on PB that he still had some humanity left, in a weird, twisted way (he still suggested Simon to make an 'ice Betty')
Omg that Distant Lands episode with Finn and Jake also absolutely murdered me. I skipped rewatching them when I rewatched AT again because it's been only a few months, but I think I'll rewatch them now and bawl my eyes out again
congrats, you have pieced together adventure time’s relationships into a neat bullet and shot me right in the feels. It’s honestly given me a better look at my first relationship (it was online too) where I was the one obsessed and really I ended it because I more or less realized that it wasn’t healthy how much care I put into it vs how much less I got in return.
Honestly all of these series have given me more relationship advice that actually applied to my relationships then any other source of media. Usually because I think most of it is about obsession for finding the one or the missing piece to yourself.
This video was great, it's nice hearing you talk so passionately about adventure time and it's deeper meanings( sorry if that sounded weird lmao)
Really good analysis! I'd recognized that obsession was a big part of Simon's story in both Adventure Time and in Fionna and Cake, but I hadn't connected that to Finn's journey. You're right, Finn has always been a very obsession based character and not just in romantic relationships. The way he handled finding his human parents was pretty unhealthy, it's just difficult to categorize it like that because that single-minded, "get it done at any cost" attitude is so common for heroes.
When I finally sat down and watched the whole show instead of catching random episodes on TV, I thought that Betty and Ice King's interactions were really interesting but also really sad. So much of Ice King's personal storyline was about accepting that people change as time goes on - with his insanity being a metaphor for any number of mental illnesses and diseases - but just because they act differently now doesn't mean that who they were to you before didn't matter or that you should abandon them for the sake of your own comfort. Ice King only starts to get better and to develop as a character once Finn and Jake stop antagonizing him all the time and once Marceline stops continually running away. I really resonated with his message of "people get better when they're given external love and support". He seemed like he was on a really good path towards accepting himself for who he is until Betty came in and declared with every interaction "Who you are now is bad! I'm going to bring back the man you were before you got sick!" And the show really seemed to push the message that this was wrong! This was not a healthy dynamic and it was not good for either of them for her to keep trying to undo what had happened. We could see this by how Betty continually got madder and sadder herself the further she went down this path. There was even an episode where Betty accepted him as Ice King (or seemed to, I don't exactly remember) that showed us how happy the two of them could be if she let go of this obsession. Ice King was happier than we'd ever seen him be in those moments. Until the end of the show where it suddenly seemed to say "ah, just kidding. Simon is the happy ending here, not Ice King". So I was really glad that Fionna and Cake got to unpack that later.
Sorry for the essay. I just really liked how these two were handled by the writers.
Such a beatiful analysis! Thabk you so much for sharing 😁
I love this video wow, I never even thought about this side of the show!! Thank you for covering this :)
one of my favorite analysis vids!! You have such a nice voice and your sense of humor is perfect for the tone of video. I would love to hear more of your thoughts on the show ❤ Definitely sharing this with my friends when we finish it together ❤❤❤
Really incredible analysis I really enjoyed this video!!! so so good, i feel dumb for not even picking up on this running theme of obsession and love thru out the show but i guess that just highlights how layered adventure time is! ughhh i just love this show so much and this video really like made me feel all emotional about it thank u for making such a great video!!
man. you got it right on the nose. loved watching this, I always enjoy listening to great adventure time takes!
Great video! The way you express yourself and articulate everything really kept me hooked.
I watched this video a week ago and have been thinking about it every night since. I just finished rewatching Adventure Time a couple of weeks ago and your insight made me look at the show from a completely different perspective! PLEASE make more Adventure Time content!
i absolutely loved this video i had always realized these things but you put it terrifically, and made such wise sense of the relationship aspects of the show, thank you for your point of view it was truly enriching.
Thank you for this analysis! These kinda things are really hard for me to fully grasp and understand so this video is really helpful!
I generally love your take and the way you analysed this topic! thank you a lot ❤
Could’ve watched an hour of this content. It’s so professional and concise I need more. Please keep it up
This was super good! I've listened to a bit of adventure time analysis on TH-cam and this was one of the best ones, definitely going to follow.
Love this commentary! Appreciate how knowledgeable you are of the lore as well, great video.
super good video! you bring up lots of good points that I've never thought about before. Made me appreciate the show even more.
What an amazing essay and contemplation. I really appreciate that you made this for us to enjoy for free! Subbed!
adventure time is such a nostalgic show :(( i can’t bring myself to watch it again…i was probably 7 or 9 when i started watching it
this was amazing and very thoughtful. thank you !
This is amazing, thank you so much for this!!! 🧚♀️💖💖💖
this video was amazing, thank you for making it
This was a fantastic analysis, highly in depth, this is my favorite show of all time so doing this right means something.
Honestly such a great take on the underlying narrative of the whole show. I always loved the themes and how they subtly slide things in the show under the guise of cartoony adventure and quirkiness but never noticed the throughout concept as they laid it so well, obsession in the space of love and how personable it is for each character and their backstories etc, is the very tone of the show!!!! Love love love this analysis!!!
I really loved this video, AT is one of my favorite pieces of media in the world, but I never really looked at it from this angle before and it kind of recontextualizes the way i feel about the series while strengthening my love for it. Anyway great video, great analysis, hope to see more from you
I would love if you made more analysis videos on adventure Time! This is such an amazing video and I love your opinions and perspective
made me think about my life and made me cry. amazing video.
I’d love more of these videos! Even if u got more ideas that isn’t adventure time, I really liked how u made this video. It’d be great to hear u make more 😁
I loved the way you talked about this show. It made me feel less alone in a way, since not many people get the appeal of Adventure Time like this. It’s an experience that is unique to all who grew up watching it, so thank you for making this video that goes so in depth and shows the love you have for it. ❤
great video!! another perspective to bolster what your saying, Ice king and Marcy’s relationship feels a lot like an allegory for a parent having an addiction, which very much plays in to all the themes you’re mentioning, Simon literally could not overcome his obsession to Marcy’s sake, no matter how hard he tried or wished it to be different
ending on that “human” note for finn was so beautiful and so natural. i dont normally comment on videos but damn this was so well made!! glad this came up in my recommended :)
I rarely comment on videos, this one was fantastic. AT is a part of my life forever and your perspective is something like you said I intrinsically understood but haven’t put into words.
I hope to keep seeing content from you thank you so much for the video
You are appreciated 🙏🏾
Personally I needed this. Thank you❤
love this video and I LOVE WHO YOU ARE based off this one video of course but keep it up and keep being you i love it
i love this video you need to make more of these 🙏
Amazing video! I never thought about it this way. I'd love more
i need more of this type of personal analysis. I adore this
This is such a good video essay your such a compelling speaker :)
Talk more about Adventure Time pleaseeeeee😊
And that was a really nice video thank you
This was so eloquent and enlightening❤❤
This is an incredible dissection of all the love things that are going on in Adventure Time, and especially with like Betty and Simon, I should send this to a couple of my friends, this video specifically cuz I feel like some of my friends have problems with obsession, and them being obsessed in their own relationships, and how tho it's is a form of love, it should be dissected why your form of love is obsession, and how it can be extremely unhealthy for both parties.
And the show does like mostly show romantic love, but I think this applies to platonic love, because though I joke with like myself, and in all the recordings I've done, that I'm obsessed with my best friend, I know that I'm not, and I know that even though I do think about them frequently, I have other things that are me far outside of the reach of my best friend, and this video is really good for like self analyzing at least for me.
This was a good video, so thank you for making it. 💛
I love your take on obsession!!! I can also add that adventure time’s philosophy, generally made me feel so much better about myself (probably because of the hurt I got from unhealthy relationships) AND if you hadn’t pointed out the subject I wouldn’t have known about the sequels!!! Thank You!!!!!
I haven't seen all of adventure Time or any of Fiona and cake, but this video was very enjoyable to watch. It is kind of funny when you look at adventure Time from this perspective how completely oblivious I was as a teenager watching. Please make more videos like this!
you're really cool!! please keep sharing your adventure time perspectives :3
This video meant a lot to me. I absolutely adore Adventure Time, but even my friends and fiancée who also like the show simply aren’t as invested in the subplot and themes as I’d like to talk with them about lol. Definitely looking forward to more of this content from you!
i would love to hear more adventure time stuff
I loved this video such clarity and open-minded thinking
Adventure time was really good at leaving bread crumbs of concepts that just leave you feeling a void, and that lead me to think more on those concepts and was lead onto growth in my view of various philosophical and realistic points of view on love and other topics the show touched upon.
This is a nice video, I’m glad we all could share the interest in this amazing show
Simon wasn't Betty's professor. He was a guess speaker.
Really interesting thoughts here. Definitely a theme I have noticed, but didn't even connect it so deeply to so many characters
Really enjoyed this video and your perspective on it, would really like it if you did more Video Essays! The way you adress these topics and how it makes you feel adds realness to it and thats the energy and passion that resonates throughout this video.
One suggestion I think during the beginning is that the audio was slightly off, try keeping I dont know if it was your phone or external recorder to a minimum of -6db and then fluff it about it in post, eeally simple to do
this video is amazing I've heard pretty much every theory but to hear a new one so thought out is amazing and i've always felt like Adventure time was always trying to force a theme of love no matter if it was good or bad, but couldn't see where it connected. This is amazing!
Loved this topic you brought up about adventure time
amazing video!! would love to see you talk more about AT :)) thank you!!
adventure time is so... profoundly beautiful and human.
Love this, subscribed!
This is a really good analysis i cant believe i didnt pick up on my watch
Didn’t we find out the Jake wasn’t dead during Obsidian, Finn just had a tattoo of him?
Yes that's what I was thinking too, I believe that's true