Tesla’s $22,000 Battery Problem | This Is Ridiculous
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ก.พ. 2024
- Do EVs Need Regular Expensive Battery Replacements? Or do they last forever? Breaking down the truth.
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It’s so difficult to find real non-bias information about this issue. The way we should be talking about this is: How many 10 year old EVs have had the battery or motor replaced. (The average age of the EV market skews all these statistics). If only 10% of all EVs replace a battery and cars older than 8:years only represent 10% of the pool….what does this tell us? We should be demanding better transparency as consumers. If battery tech is better shouldn’t that be reflected in the warranty? New Teslas are covered for less mileage than ever before. How many TH-camrs have replaced their battery “but it was under warranty”? How many ICE vehicles are replacing the drivetrain in the first 3 years Ryan? I am looking to buy a used Tesla but it seems most people are scared to drive them outside of warranty. The frustrating this about Tesla owners is they love their cars too much to criticize it. Consumers have the power to demand better if they focus more on being a customer and less on being a fan.
I agree, the battery warranty should be better. I’m reconsidering my decision to by an EV as our next vehicle.
@@richardbuckingham4329 2.5 years with a Tesla. The following is a PSA specifically for you if you’re considering an EV:
-Average $1,000 per year in tires. No, we don’t drive crazy.
-2 tow trucks for unforeseen issues. You will need a tow truck for many things an ICE car wouldn’t. And it sucks. It’s embarrassing and you don’t realize how vulnerable you are until you’re in this-completely avoidable-situation.
-$350/month for Tesla Insurance because the car erroneously generates collision warnings for parked cars on the street and people on sidewalks.
-NO ONE gets the $7,500 tax credit. Talk to a CPA-it’s grossly misleading. The EV tax credit is something you apply for on your taxes at the end of the year and the IRS worded it to rarely result in an actual material refund. You pay the sticker price at purchase and in no cases get $7,500 off like they want you to think. You’re the sucker.
-we’re upside down by 5 figures even at nearly 3 years because Tesla keeps lowering prices on new cars to make the demand seem spectacular
-Left stranded multiple times due to screen resets/random (car-initiated) software updates. At least once per year the screen-the only screen in the car-resets itself while you’re driving. That’s 30 seconds of driving on the freeway with a blank screen.
-All service is done through the app, resulting in text-message only contact with a service team after a month of waiting sometimes. All other communication from Tesla comes from do-not-reply email addresses, so customer service post-purchase isn’t bad, it’s non-existent.
-Plugged in at home, it pulls almost as much juice as its battery’s total capacity during a freeze, so it’s unusable during the height of winter. No kidding you plan your life around the car in the winter, and we rely once more on the old minivan.
-Try trading it in-absolutely no one wants a used EV, even a Tesla. My 9 year old Honda Odyssey is worth almost as much as my 3 year old Model Y. No kidding.
Don’t do it. We are currently trying to get out of the Tesla and get back to a gas car but we are super upside down in it right now.
I’m taking the time to write this to you because if I can save even one “on the fence” person (you) from buying an EV it’s worth my time.
You don’t rely on an EV, it relies on you. Also I’m happy to elaborate on any of these points if you want. I have screen shots/receipts.
Part of the problem is that batteries today are different from 5 or 10 years ago. Stats for a 2012 Leaf or S don't really apply to a 2024 3/Y.
Thats my concern, they talk about 2013 model cars as if they were ancient but in the ice world that's not that old so 8% of them having a battery replacement doesn't sound good to me. Also as you said it's hard to find unbiased reviews, so many youtubers make videos with a long list of issues they had with their brand new cars and at the end they just say they still love the car and end up buying another one. That's crazy, most sane people if they needed an engine replacement on a new gmc for example they would probably never buy another gmc in the future. But not ev owners.
@@Cornelius87 you have made an an accurate assessment of the situation.
EVs are money pits and anything but reliable unless you have weapons-grade rose-colored glasses.
We need independent shops. These prices would go down substantially and it would prevent potential malice by any automaker saying it’s not covered under warranty when it should be. It happens all the time unfortunately
I have 66 independent shops on my global Nissan LEAF map. A few of those mechanics work on Tesla’s as well.
I’m surprised that Tesla even allows owners to go elsewhere for new batteries. With all the rules they have.
@@leeteplitz7673Tesla can only control that while the car is under warranty. After that, you can go wherever you want. Same with all manufacturers. There’s a lot of misinformation around the concept of “right to repair.”
@dalececil7527... where? googled, there's not much, other than Gruber motors
there are a few but they are still sparse. there are more than Gruber but the are hard to find and tend to be in bit metro area's only .
One issue of concern for me is the Tesla LFP batteries which are purported to have greater cycle life, yet the warranty was reduced to 100K miles. Why the reduction if these are superior?
Because car is less expensive
Why do ICE cars have 5 year 60k mile warranties for the powertrain if they last for 200k miles?
The RW single motors have 100k. The Dual motors have 120k. May have more to do with the drive unit than the battery. Just a guess.
@@ymcpa73KIA has 10yr 100k
Much harder to repair replace
Batteries and cost of insurance are the main problem right now. We need more independent shops .
Insurance varies by location and company. My insurance for my Tesla isn't much higher than my previous ICE car. Batteries are not a problem. They can last over 15 years. Current projections are for battery costs to drop to around $6k by 2030.
@@ymcpa73 I think it is wrong to tell people to buy certain thing base on "Price will do this 6 years later". We don't really know if that will really happen. My Friend's Tesla Insurance went from $120/month in 2023 and spiked up to $230/month in 2024, insurance was directly from Tesla.
I am not Anti EV, and Tesla might be more reliable to certain brand like Hyundai/Kia known for Blown Engine or Nissans known for blown CVT transmission. But I do think people should get as much information as they possibly could before they take a leap of faith into a Big Purchase.
Repairing is an issue too, as of now, not a lot of independent shops wants to service EV yet, and sometimes a Tesla Repair Center can be hours away from your break down location.
My biggest issue with Tesla despite having one and being an independent shop is Tesla doesn't like selling us parts.
@@ymcpa73this is a strong argument for why no one should be buying a Tesla now and should be waiting for them to actually be good.
@@ymcpa73also batteries ARE a problem. At some point in the life of the car, you will pop a tire in the middle of nowhere.
That is an f-ing nightmare in an EV, I’ve lived it. That experience alone will make you never want an EV again. No spare tire, waiting for hours on a tow truck, and no ability to change it on your own because of the possibility of damaging the battery.
Battery percentage is NOT the same as fluid quantity in a tank. It’s an estimation of charge remaining yet fluid content is objective. Batteries get damaged when low and performance suffers. Fuel has the same exact power to the last drop.
Happy to go back to a gas car after having a Tesla. Nice to not feel trepidation when using heat in the winter.
The makers should offer extended warranties, given those stats. The small risk of a big cost after the end of the normal warranty surely is keeping many away. If only a small percentage need a battery replacement even later, the cost of an extended warranty shouldn't be too much.
They already come with 8 to 10 year battery warranties. Thats already as long or longer than any extended warranty you could buy for most gas vehicles.
Yes, I agree 100%. Given the stats, they should offer like a 10 year, 200,000mile battery warranty. The warranty would replace the battery if it got below 70% of its original capacity. That would help protect any outliers from a massive bill to replace the battery. This would also help re-sale values. Many don't want to buy old EVs because of this. California does mandate 10 years or 150,000 miles warranty, but I'm not sure if that covers the battery only if it completely stops working.
@@webcomment8895The real problem is the cost. An out of warranty ~$20k battery replacement would probably not be worth it for most 8+ year old BEVs. So the car gets scrapped or just have really low range. Both are terrible for the re-sale market, which you want to be pretty robust if you want BEV adoption to improve. Depreciation is the largest cost of ownership and as a whole is not good compared to average gasoline car.
@@nafnaf0 The batteries just need to get cheaper so replacing them don’t cost more than replacing an engine or transmission on a gas car.
@@webcomment8895 They will. Batteries are already considerably lower than they were 3 years ago and they will continue to get cheaper.
Ryan, you are awesome in explaining things around EVs and specifically Tesla. I enjoy listening to you vlog and never miss one.
same!
Same
Same!!
My 2018 M3P has 131k mi, and i commute 120mi a day during the week. I charge to 80% everyday which avg to 220-240mi depending on the time of year.
No fast charging for commuting to work. Only on long trips, which hasn’t been a lot.
Never replaced battery or drive unit?
No. Only issues I’ve had was the charge door motor stopped working. Replaced under warranty. Rear hatch button, which is probably related to the recall for the harness.
Do you know how much the battery has degraded?
Just because yours has lasted doesnt mean anything. We need statistics.
Thanks for everything. Great videos. Just one note, even if the battery issues will diminish when talking about the technology improving... As EV adoption increases more cases will show up even if the % related to the total amount is smaller. So actually we will start hearing about this problems more and more.
Wish you would cover LFP battery technology and how it’s different since Tesla recommends charging to 100% once a week.
He covered LFP batteries in the past.
There’re 100’s of videos over the TH-cam on that
@@YsoSer1ous - Not for the 2024 Model 3 LR being LFP.
@@kylester89 MOdel 3 LR is not LFP. Only the RWD
I don't believe that it was not mentioned in this video that the 80% charging recommendation is applicable to NMC batteries but this recommendation is not applicable to LFP batteries where it is recommended that LFP batteries be charged to 100%.
I'm surprised you didn't cover LFP batteries vs ternary. My understanding is LFP can last twice as long and be charged to 100% with no additional damage.
LFP also has 20% less energy density than present lithium batteries. But just wait till LFP meets real world usage ....
Was literally scrolling through the comments to see if someone already mentioned LFP charging is completely different. Cold weather charging is a whole can of worms too
@@chrissmith2114The Tesla LFPs are plenty useful in "the real world"
@@rkan2I am living in condo. This is no way for me to get the charger at home. If I need to spend 30-45 mins for each charging, this is not the “real world”. I will wait until the battery is durable and have the way to charge the car within 5 mins.
Good information, thanks for sharing your videos. 👍
Dang! What an awesome resource! I’ve gotten this question many times from friends recently and now I can just share this video. Thanks!
A potential 20k battery replacement is a huge concern for both buying a used Tesla or keeping one long term which also affects the sell price of an older tesla.
It’s not much different from older gas cars from 3+ decades when the transmission would go out. Such repairs would be expensive enough for some people they would just junk the car instead of repair it. Granted back then money was worth more.
Used Tesla cars are already worthless due to the continuously price dropping of the new ones. When my model 3 needs a new battery, I would probably take the loss and sell it for scrap.
Yeah given the low rate of failures, especially on the Teslas, I would offer an absurdly long battery warranty to protect the consumers and protect the after market. Something like a 12 years or 250,000miles (which ever comes first) warranty that would replace the battery if it falls under 70% of its original capacity. That would be a good selling point for Teslas, they could start with their 2025 models, or something like that. Battery electric vehicles are capital intensive up front compared to traditional gasoline cars, so they need to keep their value longer. Given the electric drive train, they should be able to do this. I would like to class leading depreciation values, something like 70% 5 year residual values (close to the Toyota Rav4, Honda CR-V, Honda Accord, and Toyota Camry). Right now most battery electric vehicles have around 35% to 40% 5 year residual values, which are just terrible. Tesla and Rivian are slightly better though, around 50% to 55%.
I agree. If battery degradation should be less they 10% after 10 years, then why don’t manufacturers warranty that? I want to get an EV, but can’t afford to take any risks financially.
@@CoralSea Not worthless but yes it becomes a serious consideration of repairing versus abandoning likely far earlier than other cars.
I’m at 4 years and 152,000 miles on original battery and motors
Yeah, I sold my last Tesla at 168,000 miles and still worked fine, other than the charge port door. Battery degradation was right at 11 percent. My current Model 3 LFP has 33,000 already and I've only had it for a little over a year. Needless to say I drive a lot, but most of the miles are for work so it's unavoidable. I'm at 2.5 percent degradation currently although most of that was in the first 15,000 miles. The degradation seems to be slowing down, which I guess is pretty normal.
@@Ryan-ff2dbDid you need to have brake pad/rotor replaced or brake fluid changed for the 168k miles driven?
@@Trust_but_Verify Yes, around 100,000. There were other small maintenance items and a handful of repairs, like the charge port door, driver window buttons, tires were replaced 4 times, windshield wipers, cabin filters etc... nothing major though. Tesla was actually pretty good on the warrantied items, I didn't have to fight anyone, unlike dealerships, but obviously they don't cover brakes or tires or anything like that. They do come out to your house for most repairs though, which is extremely convenient.
@@Trust_but_Verifypeople getting 160-180k on model 3 brakes before replacing & no cases of anyone doing any suspension replacements yet 😉😉
@@Ryan-ff2db Was the brake pad/rotor done at Tesla (how much) or any traditional car shop?
Thank you for another informative post!
Battery replacements are very rare.
-"I myself had to do it."
The degradation statistics from the manufacturers is dodgy. Also it is currently dodgy and not regulated when a battery needs replacement. The manufacturers usually try to avoid responsibility. If it is indeed such a rare thing they should offer better warranty and stand behind their products.
Still the technology is so new and varied that aftermarket batteries aren't available. Will be interesting when you'll be able to replace or upgrade your EV battery with an aftermarket one.
Which technology is new
@@parsonk4041 Even if EVs have been around for some years, battery tech is evolving fast, new ones like Blade LFP batteries by BYD, Sodium, solid state, you name it. There are billions of Dollars (and chinese Yuans) invested on battery tech research.
Just see how price per kWh has dropped and energy density got higher in the last 5 years.
I think they will eventually catch up. There are 3rd party Battery Rebuild Kits for Hybrid batteries that cost $2000-4000. Hopefully they will start getting involve with BEV batteries.
However, the issue how they build the car. a few 3rd Party review site say repairability for Model Y battery is almost Zero, as they glue the battery into the vechicle's structure.
EV manufacturers always strive for proprietary design so they have monopoly pricing power. Standardized batteries would reduce consumer cost greatly but this would have to be mandated.
@@encinobalboa indeed... but I feel it's still too soon to standardize... At some point, as usual, governments and regulators, like EU (they love to regulate), will step up, like the USB-C connectors on mobile devices
The high cost and extreme vulnerability of batteries in EVs is a serious issue that is being ignored in the press and by the car companies. The EV manufacturers should not ignore this issue as it is unacceptable and unaffordable. The manufacturers need to start watching BattleBots and hiring some of the participants in that show to work on designing better protection for the battery packs so that minor fender benders do not destroy the entire battery packs in EVs. If that is not feasible, then they might as well stop building EVs until it is feasible to protect the batteries from damage because the public will reject EVs until the battery issues are solved. And if government tries to cram them down the public's throat, government will lose what little credibility it has remaining. Once the insurance rates on EVs start to go through the roof, the EV market will be completely dead, except for the most hardcore, wealthy EV prophets of the green religion.
Consider this. Let's say you drive your EV for 10 to 12 years and then one day, you find out you need a new battery and that, with labor, the cost to replace the battery will be $10,000 to $20,000. How many ICE vehicles would be worth dumping another $10,000 to $20,000 into them when they are already 10 to 12 years old. In effect, the life of the battery determines the life of the EV! The day you get that notice that you need to replace the battery on your extremely old EV car is the day you get the notice that your EV is now "totaled" and has reached the end of its "Economic Life". Yes, the vehicles frame and body and perhaps even its electric engine might all be engineered to have a "Physical Life" that lasts 300,000 to 500,000 miles, but none of that matters if the expensive battery pack will not also last 300,000 to 500,000 miles.
EVs never took off in the past because people feared these kinds of issues, but now that so many people have drunk the cool-aide with respect to EVs and have been driving them for a while, it has become crystal clear that EV tech is not yet ready for prime time. Battery tech is a limiting factor that is going to kill the EV market once again, at least until the high cost and extreme vulnerability of the EV battery packs are corrected.
I was reading that dahn was saying even narrower range's would be good like only 20 percent of range with a lower top like 70 percent.
I am keeping my Y between 70 and 50 percent when not going on highway trips.
Just another variable and determining the usefulness of an expenditure in your life. I had the first year Prius and after 105 miles the drive battery needed to be replaced. It was I think $2200 and Toyota covered it completely through their customer Goodwill program. But I would say I would go with the smallest battery that I could get by with in general that probably leaf or boltEV range. That way smaller target for damage from physical stresses, and smaller replacement cost overall. They should also modularize these things to repair individual cells or groups or blocks of cells as well.
I own a 2014 Tesla Model S 85P and had the main battery replaced around 30,000 miles into its use. Tesla replaced the battery free of charge as part of the warranty. Now that the warranty has expired, I am considering options such as selling the car or exploring third-party warranty options.
Good luck!!!
Any crash in a ev can mean a new battery is needed.
And spontaneous extremely hot combustion
That’s because of a pyro fuse that gets triggered. Electrify America will repair
Is there a way to get a meantime/miles to need replacement for batteries and drive units? What does it cost to replace a drive unit?
Nice video and presentation.
Do we think Panasonic is motivate more by Tesla or Toyota?
"battery replacements are quite rare" For something that is quite rare, there seems to be a lot of videos on youtube of people talking about their own battery replacements.
well, of course. for the few people who have had to replace their battery, they want to broadcast to the world. For the vast majority of us who haven't we don't make videos saying, "Hey, my car runs fine. I've done nothing." Those kind of videos don't sell.
@@KaiPonte it is quite a few and statistically higher per capita than hybrid battery replacements or gasoline engine replacements
@@BorisRenshiz I honestly looked for statistics and could not find anything. Do you have any stats? I imagine older EV's like the Nissan Leaf will need battery replacements more than cars with the modern controlled batteries.
lithium ion hasa life span of 8-10 years if not abused eg ran very low or fully charged alot you want to charge to 80% and discharge to 20% no lower to get a good battery life span same with laptops phones ebikes scooters etc
@@TCBOT So, my vendor's 10 year old Tesla shouldn't be working?
Staggering vehicle deprecation is the hidden cost that EV owners don’t realize - or don’t want to talk about.
That’s why you buy used. Bought my Audi Etron, wrapped in matte dark grey, blacked out wheels and grille. Honestly the best looking SUV and it turns heads wherever I go.. for only $35K. 🤣
2019 M3 LR AWD, 85,000 miles, original battery still gets ~300 miles when charged to 100% for road trips. I usually charge it to 80% every couple days
Top notch video with great information. Thank you, Ryan
You are missing the point. The main problem is replacement due to damage. Like those Hyunday Canada cases. If a minor accident results in a repair that is more expensive than the whole car, that there is already a problem for the vast majority of EV owners. The problem is that the batteries are rather sensitive to impact damage even if not impacted directly. And since the car batteries take up a lot of space in the car, damage is highly likely.
Until the battery is more than 20% of the cost of the new car, they are simply not financially viable.
The vast majority of battery failures in Teslas to date is not due to degradation, but to cell or other component failure. Repair requires access to the internal components of the power pack. The current design of Tesla power packs is very poor for repair of these problems, leading to the replacement strategy. This is the true Achille's Heal of Tesla's current designs, not the range, and is something they need to address. Their early design allowed both for the battery to be disassembled without destroying it, and for modules to be repaired or replaced. They moved away from this for cost savings, but are paying a steep price on warranty battery repair, and destroying the quality reputation of their vehicles.
I believe Tesla cites cost saving, more rugged batteries, and more rigidity. A little less weight.
You have no idea how this is working out. JD Powers and and Consumer reports can not be seen as unbiased data sources.
Great piece. Thanks!
If I sell my Tesla Model S and buy a new RWD Y I will pay about 20k (using the money from the private sell) for the new car. However, I get a new Battery and 8 year warranty. Love my Model S 2015. But It doesnt make sense to keep it for longer and needing to pay for a new battery or repair other parts like supension/AC etc
Most people know the risk so it will be interesting to see what it brings. Good luck! yeah, every Tesla owner I know is thrilled with their car.
How bad is your degradation. If it's not bad, you can continue driving the car for another 5+ years
Going from a Model S to a 3 is going to be very hard, I wouldn't do it, it's a night and day difference!
@@ymcpa73 around 10%
@@randygreen7871 I have test driven both.. I would be going for a Y. Yes, it is a bit of a downgrade. But, I cannot afford a new S/X. Also, i will be able to transfer my free supercharging. I do love my S but things dont last forever unfortunately (cost effective)
Hi Ryan. Why were your Model Y batteries replaced?
I caused $1500 damage driving over debris on the highway at night in my Corvette. Glad it wasn’t a Tesla! Thats one of the many problems with EV ownership, no piece of mind for things that might happen.
Great video Ryan! Batteries and motors in EVs are akin to engines and transmissions in ICE cars in terms of expensive components with some of the longest life expectancies of the vehicle. Looking at replacements should be considered in a similar way.
Why did you replace the battery on the model Y, my 2021 model Y battery degraded so much and also drained itself twice while there was enough charge in it, and had the auxiliary replaced twice.
I had an incidence of “sudden range loss” about 15 months after I’d bought my 2020 MY long range the summer of ‘20. Charging to 80% went from 260 miles to 235 miles in less than a couple of weeks. Fortunately in the year and a half since, it hasn’t changed much at all. The only thing out of the ordinary was I had the let the charge level drop to around 5% before recharging at my level 2 charger.
Is it within the warranty period or beyond "DA"
You failed to mention that all warranty batteries that Tesla replaces are not really new batteries. They are remanufactured batteries that Tesla made from other bad batteries they got. They basically Frankenstein a new battery pack and that’s what they give out as warranty replacements. Many videos on TH-cam talking about this issue
Any advice for LFP batteries in specific other than charging to 100% at least once per week?
What is the optimal temperature for a Tesla battery?
I get all the green energy EV stuff out there, but to produce those batteries cheaper and at higher volume will require a technological breakthrough, and/or bigger surplus of raw materials.
Every time I see the mining operations for all the needed metals for those battery packs, EV cars looks a lot less greener.
Exactly. EVs make no sense if you want them to be used for greener purposes. If people truely want greener transportation than better infrastructure and public transportation is the best bet.
Issue for places like America, Canada, and Australia where tons of infrastructure is built for cars. Here in America you would need to demolish everything.
I'm curious how Vehicle to grid (V2G) bi-directional EV charging will affect the warranty.
If the batteries could be easily swapped and could also power your home in an emergency then I would consider one otherwise they are not worth the initial cost or potential cost of a battery down the line.
Any details on Tesla Vision update?
I own 2021 M3SR and MYSR. Purchased new. Mostly L2 charging at home. Both cars ended up having batteries replaced before they hit 50k miles. I'm not sure what to look forward too.
Toyota has 10y battery warranty. They don't have good EV now but hybrids are good. Long range EVs from Toyota come between 2026 to 2028. (later date is switch to solid state battery which should be better than current in reliability)
Just get a diesel and pump the fumes into a green house and watch the plants grow like crazy from the “greenhouse gasses” and feel better about what you are doing the mockery is high by the world government 😂
What about the structural packs? Was there any recorded battery swap? Is it even possible?
I read on line that in Japan, recovered Nissan Leafs after the Fukushima earthquake had intact batteries without water intrusion. The article didn’t go into great detail like how many cars and how damaged they were.
So what are the best charging habits for the LFP battery?
100% lol that’s why I got my rear wheel drive model 3
To 100%, frequently.
Question I own a Model 3 2023 RWD I asked Tesla about the charging info and they told me I can charge to a 100% at least ones a week what do think about that we love to hear your advice thank you?
That is fine likely. More issue comes if car stays at 100% long time.
I hope your right about battery replacements being rare, but I also had my 2020 model Y bat replaced under warranty. Another thought is there has been a lot of model y and 3 sold and maybe there just not up for replacement yet making Y/3 numbers low.
Are they giving you a new battery or just replace bad cells?
@@superclownfish4109 I don't know how to tell.
@@andrewtinker1802 The ugly part I heard is when it is under warranty, they give you a battery made from recycled used cells. These cells may have a higher chance to go bad again. When your battery broke and it is out of warranty, they will not only force you to pay $12k for a new battery, but take your old battery, gather all the good cells which may still worth 5k-6k and give to someone else who is still under warranty.
There was a Recurrent study looking at battery degradation between those who supercharged their car 90% of the time versus those who supercharged their car 10% of the time. The results showed no significant difference between the two groups.
Yeah that makes sense. I work in a phone store and I charge my phone with a fast charger rather than a standard 15 watt charger. My 15 pro still feels the same. My 13 pro only dropped by 6% using the same chargers over 2 years
@@chrisiscoolrenteroa6702iPhones charge really slowly and aren't comparable. Better comparisons are the Chinese phones charging 80 watts+, and those degrade faster.
Thanks for pulling back the curtain on a complex and concerning subject that lives in the back of all of our minds. A true professional as always.
Do you have stats for Tesla LFP (standard range) models?
I bought a model y. Im assuming it will last usably at least 10 to 15 years. Maybe by then cost of the battery compared to wages will be like buying a battery today gor like 5k. New battery tech and more adoption of EVs will hopefully bring down replacement cost
Goldman Sachs has a report that the price of batteries will fall to about $80/Kwh by 2030. So, your Model Y battery will be around $6k if that happens.
@@ymcpa73 Unfortunately, the resale value of the car will also be $6000, so it's a moot point.
Battery pack repair can be an option. Seems like they were like $6k last I looked several years ago now. They isolate the bad cell(s). There is a shop in Arizona that does Roadsters and older Model S'sx that are well out of warranty.
I do wish we had a better example to compare with another Uber Professional, like the one in your video at 12-14mins, who also Superchargers but to 80%. I am surprised he charged to 100% waisting valuable time. A 0-80% charge = time for the last 20% to full.
Cheers,
Eric
I saw an interview with that driver. He was new to EVs and obviously didn't fully research it.
I drive for Uber full time myself and I fast charge 2x a day but only to maybe 80% a one time I’ll only do a few percent in between (10 to 12hrs a day) I try to use the off peak rates(.30 to .35) to my advantage and it has seemed to work so far, I do have a home charger as well. as of current I have had no issues with the battery it seems perfectly happy, I have put almost 15000mi on it since I got it in December. I know it’s not a Tesla but rather a 22 Chevy Bolt figured for the price I paid why not lol
@Wannabecowboy004 outstanding! It sounds like you're taking excellent care of your investment!!! Well done!
@@erickessler6094 I mean I’m pretty much stuck with it as the bottom has fallen out on EVs an it has no resale now 🤣
@Wannabecowboy004 Yes. Thankfully, even new prices have drastically dropped. If I had the money and need, I'd grab the Tesla Model 3+ in a heartbeat!
But keep taking great care of your business investment, as I you are. I'm sure as a businessman, you rotate those tires every 5k miles, too. 😎
10 to 20 years is actually quite short period considering the enormous cost of replacing the battery pack and the warranty is just for 8 years anyway. The ICE repairs overtime do add but the cost is still lower and not paid in bulk not to mention their affordability even if you buy 15-20 years old ICE car. My first car years ago was 16 years old Corolla for 1200 bucks which lasted me for 4 years with very minor issues( the rust not included😊) before sold for 800.
I would never buy used Tesla older than 8-10 years for obvious reasons, my current drive is a 8 years old beemer without having the range anxiety and thinking what will happen if i damage the battery pack in a accident.
Very true!
When the Toyota Prius became popular in the early 2000s people talked about how the batteries were going to be $20,000 to replace them but fast forward to the last 10 years and you could get a replacement for 4500 and then they went down to as low as $1,800. I had two Replacements in my Toyota Prius hybrids that I owned at different mileage points and the first time I did it Toyota wanted 4500 and I went to a third party and I got it done for 1500 bucks. By the time the second vehicle needed a battery replacement, Toyota dealers had lowered their installation costs to 1800 so I went ahead and replaced my battery with them. Refurbished battery packs available for cars will obviously be much less than a new battery and save consumers tons of money when looking at replacing a battery that is $10,000 plus right now
Toyota now has a 10 year 150k mile warranty on hybrid batteries. Would be nice for Tesla to match.
The Prius uses nickel metal hydride batteries (all perhaps except the absolute newest models) and those are much... much hardier to abuse and weather, and don't have the nasty little problem of being a thermite timebomb rolling around on wheels.
If you are thinking that EV battery cost will decline with the passage of time, you are mistaken. Cost will remain high because EV makers resist standardized design that consumers can service. Replacement batteries and dealer service are cash cows for EV makers.
2013 Tesla Model S HV battery costs have only gone up. Hence the reason I got rid of mine. So far the price declines you saw with the Prius haven't happened yet with Tesla.
@@thom1218seems NiMH batteries had fallen out of popularity in recent years. It's probably not energy dense enough and I recall it was expensive AF.
There are multiple studies that show DC fast charging has little effect on battery health
This video was incredibly thorough and fair. Thank you for all of the research.
There are many articles and studies done that say that supercharging does NOT degrade a battery any more than L2 charging does. All the other factors that he states are the main causes of degredation of vehicle batteries, heat, large charging cycles, frequent large charging cycles, leaving the vehicles at high states of charge in the heat. In fact, the cold is much better for battery longevity than heat is.
The issue with the cold is that the battery charges way slower. Most modern EVs have preconditioning to heat the battery so it can fast charge if needing to use a supercharger. Perhaps a cool garage at home on L2 charging could be best? Maybe in a year everyone will be saying never charge in the cold! EV battery info is skewed in a bunch of different directions and hard to figure out what is right. LFP chemistry is supposed to be more sensitive to the cold. So that adds more complexity as some EVs are switching from NMC to LFP batteries.
I was just referring to degradation not charging speeds. You can almost completely mitigate slower charging in the extreme cold by pre-heating the battery. The issue they had in Chicago was because you had a whole bunch of ride shares coming in without preheating the batteries causing trying to charge with frozen batteries which doesn't work.(I know you weren't talking about that, i'm just referring to slow charging in the cold). I'm not sure if there have been any studies on temp-related charging on L2 chargers regarding battery degradation, that's an interesting idea. Personally, I think within the next 5 years or so with the new batteries coming out, much of these issues, charging speed, degradation, range will all be resolved. Patience is not a human strong point. @@practicalguy973
@@practicalguy973 Tesla's BMS also preconditions (e.g. cools) the battery in the summer using the car's AC.
@@practicalguy973 So I guess anyone who rents or doesn't own a place with a garage is basically unable to treat their cars right then?
@@mikeydude750 It would have to be really cold for that to be an issue as the preconditioning should work by heating the battery first and then charging is fine. The bigger issue is if plugged in the battery will always need to be kept somewhat warm. An EV sitting outside in the cold looses 1-3 percent per day depending on how cold it is. People with garages that are not heated would suffer similar results maybe a little better since the garage provides a little more insulation and with the car charging its adding some heat to the indoor space.
So it’s not good having tesla around 100 plus degrees area or in Las Vegas? Too hot during summer time
...or -20 degrees in cold climate areas.
Here East of Los Angeles in San Bernardino County we stopped LA from routing another high tension line called "Green Path" across our desert. We got a Secnic Highway designation and the project died in court! On a local mesa a wind company was defeated as were SEVERAL small solar projects over the last few years. So WHERE are these new facilities going? Not here! We can block any project!
I have a model y long range that I use in my service business. I avg 40k miles a year. I try to avoid supercharging. I’m cruising at roughly 9% degradation at 78k miles.
One way to word that you lost 9% of your range in two years.
@@TrevForPresident yeah, that’s what I said
My 2004 Highlander has 300k miles on it and gets the same fuel economy as it did when new.
@@jpete3027666 I’d do that same mileage in 7-8 years. I own a fleet of gas, diesel, and ev. Cars never retain the same mpg when you put a lot of miles on them yearly.
Great video Ryan very good info
My Model Y (2021) replaced a 2015 Ford Escape. Cost of insurance was the same for both vehicles, ie, insurance cost was not an issue. Range is 94-98% of original. Also not an issue (for me).
Thanks Ryan!
I appreciate this and very informative! All the best!
My 2019 Tesla X main battery failed after 4 years and had to be replaced under warranty. Got stuck in Barstow and never made it to Vegas.
Buying a used tesla makes me nervous since do not know whether was used for Uber and supercharged regularly.
But that’s a concern with any used car ev or ice. Maybe that got better because of lemon laws, but you never know how bad the previous driver was. I wouldn’t trust anyone.
Tesla has a battery health test, although it's a bit time-consuming because it discharges the battery fully, and then charges it fully.
@@Whimsy4fall, a decent mechanic can inspect and give a you a very accurate idea of the condition of an ICE. They have access to literally everything in the vehicle that would have a significant cost to replace. EVs are the complete opposite.
@@Whimsy4fallyou can't accurately get the health of a used battery. The mechanical components of a ice car are easy to inspect for their conditons.
“Good Battery Charging habits” great practical advice
I've just realised Ryan Shaw is part of my daily routine alongside coffee. You deserve more subscribers.
I have a 2016 X with unlimited supercharging. I charge that bad boy 2 or 3 times a week (at least in winter) at a supercharger. Range has dropped from 250 fully charged down to around 232 fully charged. I usually only charge to 80-90% with 100% when going on long trips.
Hoping there will be more shops that do battery cell replacement. I thought by now they would be everywhere with the Tesla's being so ubiquitous, but so far that is not the case... 😞
Is it possible to get insurance that covers EV battery replacement, no matter what the failure scenario is? E.g. If I run over a muffler on the road and damage my battery I need my car insurance to cover all costs.
Yes. Your comprehensive with collision will cover the cost if you have enough coverage to cover the whole car. Any object you run over on the highway will fall under those categories. If a tree falls on your car...its covered. If it's tossed into the air by a Tornado. Its covered. As long as you have both those coverages. Call your insurance and just ask them.
Roller coaster news. "Yay, my Model 3 is safe!" "Oh no, my battery use will ruin me." "Yay! That won't matter!" "Oh no, I'm hosed." Such is the life of a Tesla person. But I frickie love that car, I am _always_ happy when I get into it to go for a wee drive
It would be nice if you could get an upgraded pack when they come available. The other tech advancing in the car might be more of
a cause to replace the car like improved FSD.
My wife just took off on trip from Atlanta, Texas, Los Angels to Seattle to stop at as many super chargers as she can to win the Easter egg Tesla is offering in there contest.
Let's hope the battery is okay with a few perecent added every hour for days as she makes her way on this trip.
Man, if I were that 1% to have to change the battery, that is a huge risk. A 20k+ expense for 1% of the owners is huge.
@4:25 that Nissan leaf stat is total bs. Almost all of the first three generation leaf batteries need replacement but the cost totals the car. So owners just live with the degradation until the car becomes a salvage write off.
Batteries have to become cheaper or there will be no resale value for 2nd hand cars, if a battery is expensive then it makes sense to only buy new which makes BEV's disposable devices. Then somehow you have to be sure the previous owner of the BEV has never driven over a rough or corrugated surface because if just one of the thousands of connections fail the battery will need replacing.
Batteries are getting cheaper and have been for 20 years. They used to be over $7,000 per kwh 20 years ago now they're about $140 per kwh for NCM and closing in on $100 for LFP. They've dropped 19 percent this year already and we're not even in March yet. Manufacturers and financial firms like Goldman and Bloomberg are predicting another 40 percent reduction in cost over the next year or two. This would put the cost of the average battery pack at between $5,000 to $6,000, which would be cheaper than most engine replacements. Also, driving corrugated surfaces would not in any way cause damage to a battery. Other than an uncommon recall(like the bolt) Battery replacements are very rare across the board.
The price has dropped and they are still far too expensive@@Ryan-ff2db
@@Ryan-ff2dbunless we figure out solid state batteries, the reduction in price will plateau very soon.
@@mg6192 Not really. Both manufactures and analysts believe prices for lithium batteries will fall an additional 40 percent in the next year in the US. LFP Batteries in China are already at $70 per kWh and are expected to hit $56 per kWh in China by the end of the year and CATL just reported huge profitability despite lower battery prices, so if they had to cut prices further, they can.
Here in BC, Canada with most of our highways through multiple mountain ranges, falling rocks is something that needs to be watched carefully and everyone can do this by A. not following the vehicle ahead of you too close to help to avoid driving over fallen rocks. B. watch when driving in the dark as rocks on the road can be missed with poor visibility. Yes we have insurance but our Provincial run insurance corp - ICBC will hammer you with hefty insurance cost increase after having hit road debris that could result in battery replacement or vehicle right-off.
Had road damaged battery to my 2018 model 3, total cost was $15k, or closer to $US12k. No different from an engine failure
My 2005 Prous has 182k on original battery. It is nimh, though. I think people should be aware these batteries can fail, and the proce to replace us very high. Hybrids are a good compromise, for now.
I plan on buying either the Model 3 Long Range or the Model Y Performance, and it's only for weekends or special occasions. I am definitely learning how and when to charge to keep the life of the battery 🔋.
Works out expensive to buy an EV for low mileage because you don’t get to take advantage of low fuel and maintenance costs
I wonder how many people have looked into replacing the engine in an ICE. Comparing a 320i to a Model 3 LR AWD it is $3K to $9K for a rebuilt engine. I have seen prices for a new engine at $24K - $45K depending on the engine and model of the original car. Additionally, with a new or rebuilt engine it is recommended that you replace or rebuilt the transmission at the same time. The price for that is comparable to the engine. Sounds to me like whether ICE or BEV replacing the drive train is pretty comparable.
The one advantage to replacing the ICE is that they typically come with a 5 year warranty. Tesla's warranty for a rebuilt replacement battery is a lowly 1 year.
We definitely need competition in the BEV battery world.
Road debris damage is covered under the comprehensive section of your auto insurance. Example if your driving down highway and debris falls off of truck or vehicle in front of you and causes damage because you couldn’t avoid it your comprehensive coverage will pay for it less deductible.
My Dec 2016 Model X 90D is down to 73KWA 69KWA usable... it gives me around 150Miles of range but since the drop is not below 70% no replacement is available to me. I don't know what to do since driving from Orange County , CA to LAX is as far as I can go on full 100% charge.
Anybody else having the same issue with their model? X?
Your claim doesn't make any sense. From San Clemente at the far southern boundary of Orange County to LAX is
@@Big_Ben_from_La_Mesa you are exactly right from San Clemente, which is where I live to LAX and back. I am almost at 0% when I'm back home. I live right by there 5 and Pacific Coast highway where San Clemente and Dana point split. I can go from there to LAX Tom, Bradley and back home and then I'm out of juice even when I am charged 100%.
@@user-in5qh6xp7y OK, thanks for the clarification. I thought you were saying you couldn't go *one way* on a full charge; round trip makes perfect sense. But if I had a sweet Model X that couldn't quite get from home to LAX round trip on a charge, I'd far rather take an extra 5-10 minutes at one of the many Superchargers along the way, that pay scores of thousands of dollars to replace it! 🙂
My 2019 Model X “Raven” had an indicated 325 miles of range when new. I’m currently at 137,965 miles and it’s showing 307 miles at 100% however this is my 5th battery after I’ve had 4 replaced so far so i don’t think my experience can be useful… every Battery failed while supercharging at well over 100 degrees. Hard to avoid when you live in Las Vegas.
I would love to hear sometime whether efforts are made to thermally insulate EV battery packs, in order to minimize the effort needed to heat OR cool them. And if not, WHY not.
Thats so often battery replacement 😮
2018 M3 Vin 22,000 and change. 310 miles new. 116,000 miles later. Charging to around 297-301 miles. Charged to 90% most of the time, Range charged every couple month or on trips. SC around 100+ times total. For the last year or so been breaking up my charging to 70-80% with only 90% every other week but that when I'm leaving work and I get home with around 78% Winter and 83% Summer months. This has seemed to improve my overall loss to the 3-4% demonstrated Above. Overall Totally impressed.
Tesla service this year told me a new Model S battery for a Gen 1 car is $16K with $13K of that being battery cost.
This helped ease my mind some but not a lot. I have a 22 bolt that I use for about 1200 to 1500 a week I try to follow all best practices on the battery, the one I don’t follow is fast charging 😐 I do that 2x a day but only to 75 or 80% I mean it is a bolt and it only charges at about 50kw 🤣
When buying a second hand EV, how would you know if the original owner did all the things required to prevent battery failure?
I believe there is a charging log provided by the car. I remember seeing a graphic which showed the cars charging history. Worth looking into.
Nice summary of battery concerns and best practices. On my first model S I didn't know any better and charged to 100% at superchargers. With time, the Tesla community assembled a nice collection of guidelines. Tesla, as a company, has always been a minimal communicator. Doesn't hurt the cars themselves, but customers would be in a happier place if the projected nominal lifecycle of the car they bought was documented. It would be nice to know the various service components to be replaced over time and their nominal lifespan. My largest surprise was the 12V battery dieing every 2 or so years. We've been conditioned by prior experience to think 12V batteries last 4-5 years. Still too soon to know what will happen with the lithium version.
Great content as usual!
Maybe Tesla will watch this video and reconsider battery size so the driver can maintain 260 range while being restricted to 80%-20% rule
So on to charging stations... Why are so few available? Why so expensive? Here in California its hard to find a working station. Many are non-functionable or damaged. I hear its too costly to build very many so the few that get made are in cities big enough for them.
If the cost of replacing the battery was only $9,000, I find it really good after 120,000 miles. I have a 2022 Toyota Highlander XSE, and I do Uber, typically driving around 200 miles daily. Now my car has 90,000 miles, and I had to take it for service due to a transmission problem. I had two options: to do 2 flushes on the transmission, which cost me $1,300, and if that doesn't fix the issue, I have to replace the transmission, which costs $8,500. Imagine that plus all the monthly maintenance costs. As I said, if the cost of the battery alone was $9,000, I see it more than fine.
Very VERY rare for a Toyota to have a powertrain issue at 90K... that does suck though.
I also do Uber.. Wondering why you chose a Highlander? Unless its a 3 row to do XL trips. Or is it a Hybrid? Trans failure on Toyota Hybrids is almost unheard of.
Prius or Camry would be better Uber car... I got 425,000 miles out of my Prius.. and that's kinda low miles.. I had a unusual engine failure. Original trans, and hybrid battery. I have a friend with an 07 with 580,000 on it.
@@kens97sto171Yes, friend, take the Highlander through UberXL, although right now it's not worth it, it's only worth it on Saturdays and sometimes it's not pleasant to have 6 people in your car. And my Highlander is not hybrid My father-in-law has the same Highlander but in 2021 he is also an Uber driver and he had the same problem as me.
Are replaced batteries always new or are they refurbished?
Refurbished.
I heard from Sandy Monro, i believe, that the junction boxes that connect blocks of batteries together can degrade or rust, and if those replaced, can fix the problem so no need to ditch the whole system and some individual batteries can go and why not just replce the bad apple and save ditching the whole system because of a rogue battery. Perhaps you could dig into that in one of your videos.
That isn't of any use for cells that are glued into a monolithic structural slab, which is the way Tesla has chosen to go.
A lot of that depends on how the batteries are designed and the ease of access to them.
This varies between manufacturers.
Great video. I have a vendor rep, who bought a 2013 Tesla Model S last year. It had 130,000 miles and 90% battery capacity. It now has 160,000 miles and is still running just fine.
I have a 2013 S85 Tesla that is on the original battery and has 140,000 miles and still running at capacity of 90%. I've had the car since it had 30,000 miles and 98% batter capacity, or about 7 years. It's still an amazing and beautiful car. I treat it gently; charge almost exclusively at home, park it in a garage both at home and at work, and take it in every year to check up on things like coolant fluids, etc, but it has literally been a maintenance-free car, and the battery is doing great. I'll continue to drive it until it falls apart.
@@caryrogers9676 please stop saying things like this. the anti-ev crowd will get a bad rap
@@caryrogers9676 For every Tesla that manages to get this far, there are 1000 Toyota/Lexus vehicles with 250,000 miles on them and still getting the same gas mileage and with only slightly less during Winter months in 20 degree weather.
High milage engines blow up occasionally...
$20K to repair?
ICE cars can be repaired at literally any independent repair shop, even an engine rebuild isn't a big deal and yes, it won't cost 20k. 20k is a really decent used ICE car!
@@dpn1604 maybe not. There are so many engine control devices all over the place...
There are no spark distribution caps any more that you can rotate a bit forward or backwards to adjust the spark timing ;-)