Bant Nadu Wins Pro Tour Modern Horizons 3 - Should We Ban The Bird?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ต.ค. 2024
- Simon Neilsen wins Pro Tour Modern Horizons 3 with Bant Nadu!
Nadu took 5/8 of the top 8 however and I think it may be time to talk about banning the bird...
#mtg #magicthegathering #banned #crazy #wow
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Pro Tour Modern Horizons 3 Metagame Breakdown (Frank Karsten): www.magic.gg/n...
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Pro Tour Modern Horizons 3 (Magic.gg) - magic.gg/event...
Simon Neilsen's Winning Decklist: www.mtggoldfis...
Saffron Olive's Tweet: x.com/SaffronO...
Nadu Mill (MTGO Gameplay) - • Proving Nadu Is Just A...
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it got 59% winrate and 5/8 top8 with 25% presence, not even Hogaak did that
You know what this means right? Ban Springheart Nantuko.
@@mythito5120 True Nantuko has to be the problem in that deck! D:
@@tarlin95 Same level of power in Nadu as Bridge was for Hogaak, so it must be banned, right?
@@mythito5120 tbh I guess first ban gonna be shuko as you actually do not consider that nantuko is from MH3 too which makes it "unbannable" till you ban atleast 1 or 2 cards from other set for the problematic deck XD
Ok but the data doesnt always determine card power, hogaak was definitely more broken and harder to beat than nadu is.
This was suppose to be a showcase of the new cards to sell the new set but all the cards became irrelevant being eclipsed by the bird. Never let middle managers design the set. They hate the game and dont play.
All I know is that the Rhystic Studies video on the bird is going to go HARD
Dude on GOD
"The Unboltable Bird"
Bird needs a ban. Whoever got to design ALL the things it has should have their design card taken away. Unboltable at 4 toughness (especially with Fury banned for the greater good)? There is no "major" limit to triggers since it can be bounced for a reset? Triggers aren't draws? Triggers off ALL targeting not just opponents (which is more reasonable)? 3 mana cost? Also, not as important but still silly, they gave it flying. Yeah. Seems balanced on the surface. No one HAD to break that card before launch. Sleeper card for sure.
This just goes to what I've been saying for years now about Legendaries: they need to actually be Legendary, and automatically be restricted to one ofs in decks. That alone solves so many problems in and of itself.
Sure, some Legendary cards become useless as one ofs, but those cards probably weren't seeing a lot of play to begin with. But the cards that are seeing play, will still see play, while not being anywhere near as problematic as they are now.
It should be painfully obvious to anyone paying attention that Wizards will continue to push these cards over and over and over. Fine, let them. Just restrict them and open up deck design.
@@Xoulrath_ Just say you love hearthstone dude
@@GrayVMhan I've never played Hearthstone, dude.
Why not just errata the bird so lands enter tapped and ban shuko?
Or just errata it so the effect is global instead of being given to ALL your creatures.... which would STILL be a pushed effect (just not nearly as insane as it is now).
Yes, Nadu should be banned. As Saffron Olive on Mtggoldfish pointed out. Nadu had a more dominant performance than Hogaak in its first Pro Tour performance, which got Bridge from Below banned.
Taking into account that if they ban Shuko. There are other enablers that can enable the combo. Plus, as pointed out, the combo is non-deterministic and can be overly complicated to track. Those things alone have gotten cards banned.
Unban twin and like 10-15 other cards leave nadu. Let the format be degenerate. DRS artifact lands p fire shoal glimpse fury ponder twin jitte GSZ outburst
This is what happens when they design for commander in every product they make. Either they just thought it'd make a cool commander that people would get excited over or they're completely ignorant to their own design. Probably both.
From watching the games there's two things that stood out to me about Nadu
1. The game play of a Nadu deck going off is horrible to watch and experience. It's not fun, it's not interesting, but it's non-deterministic enough the opponent shouldn't auto concede.
2. It's not a pure combo deck. A "fizzle" of the combo still leaves the Nadu player with an extremely dominating, probably winning, board state. It's extreme value and advantage even when it doesn't immediately win.
not based on the win but based on how the tournament turned out
A-well, everybody's heard about the bird
B-b-b-bird, bird, bird - b-bird's the word
A-well, a-bird, bird, bird, - well, a-bird is the word
A-A-A Ban the bird
Ba-ban the bird
Nadu. Grief. One Ring. Get them out.
WOTC, please do not make the bridge from below mistake. Get rid of the freaking bird.
It's interesting to note that, while Bant Nadu went 50/50 against Jeskai Control, which looks like a strong showing for the control deck, 4-Color Nadu *crushed* Jeskai Control. It would be interesting to break down how the differences in those deck lists have such a strong impact, and ponder from that why 4-Color wasn't assumed to be the better version going Into this tournament.
4 color is typically worse against faster combo and or big mana decks.
Deck that runs bowmasters being better against a one ring deck is not shocking at all lol.
the solution to the problem would be to errata the text on nadu, making it only able to do its ability twice per turn ( not per creature but for the turn). similar to what they did to the companion mechanic.
This is what Magic looks like when design's first goal is to avoid feels-bad moments for Timmy.
Even the pro players think we should bant nadu
Can't wait for shuko to be banned instead
Sucks to be the one nadu player left out of T4 haha
There is no more individuality in the pro tour any more it feels like. Just pros using the best decks instead of using decks that kinda represent them or their respective strengths. I know it’s cheesy but we had pillars who were known for using infect, or burn or affinity or etc. MTG feels like it’s going away from the core of the spirit of the game and it’s diving into step two ships battling in the night.
It isn't that other decks aren't viable. It's that these "pros" are trying to make money. So it's just much easier for them to narrow the meta as much as possible, and plan accordingly. Modern still has a ton of functional "rogue" decks that work quite well. People at large just tend to ignore it as it requires some actual effort.
@@Xoulrath_ definitely understand that logic, it makes the game plan easier. But we as fans want to see different decks. They don’t have to be fringe decks but I wanna see scam vs tron or bant nadu vs control, Nadu imo made* it hard to enjoy the gameplay. The coverage was amazing as always with the pro tour. I may be complaining but it’s my honest opinion. I wish more diversity, not just copy paste match ups.
The thing thats so hard about magic is when they fuck up like this, it's not like a video game where they can quickly tweak it to be once per turn or have lands come in tapped. The only way they can change it is by banning it which feels so bad when you design a card. Granted, I agree that the card was poorly designed, but having the extremes be either have the card stay the same and legal or completely ban the card feels so bad. I don't see there being a way to reword the card or change it anymore either. The only times they've done that was for old card and reprints and mostly just for clarification, not to change something completely
Maybe they can errata the bird to say the ability happens twice per turn PERIOD. Not twice per turn on each creature.
That would be a pretty big functional change and would require more of a wording change than it looks like at first glance. Better to just ban it.
Once, and tapped. Done
WotC doesn't do power level-based erratas, and I don't think that would be a great idea.
@@reviewchan9806 that definitely does make it a lot harder to get the critical mass needed to keep going. It would still be a boring design, but would be less immediately broken.
"An opponent controls" I think would do it singlehandedly, or maybe remove "or ability".
@@Lleldorellin They did for companion.
Give me back Hogaak and Looting or ban the bird
Galvanic Blast the Bird!
Tell us you didn't test that card without telling is you didnt test the card 😂
I wish you hadn't said, "Wizards shouldn't have made Nadu say 'Only twice a turn', it should have only been 'Only once...'" Unfortunately, that's the exact - and wrong - lesson Wizards is going to learn from this card, too. That's surface level thinking. Since Wizards' introduction of the "Only once per turn" limitation (something I hated at first, but has ultimately resulted in less random "Oops I went infinite" designs, which is all around a good thing), each card has either had uncapped triggers or has been limited to a once a turn trigger, with no in between. "Only X times" is a fantastic knob to turn to tweak the power level of cards, and they should do it more often, not less. It's the equivalent of how they realized Lightning Bolt (R) was too good, but Shock (R) was too weak, yet increasing the cost of Lightning Bolt by a colorless to create Lightning Strike (1R) was the perfect middle ground for the Standard environment. "Only twice" is a great idea. That's not the problem with Nadu. I hope they don't shelf it.
However. Nadu IS culmination of multiple years of idiotic power creep. The design is straight up clown shoes. Any one of the following changes would have made the card fair:
1.) Consider the power and toughness. This card is a 3/4 for 3 with flying. That is absurd. With it's effect, if it was a 2/1, it would still be broken. At least make it die to damage based removal.
2.) The ability might say "Twice a turn", but it isn't actually, since it does it for each creature. It should have only worked twice IN TOTAL a turn. This would be the new text: "Whenever a creature you control becomes the target of a spell or ability, reveal the top card of your library. If it's a land card, put it onto the battlefield. Otherwise, put it into your hand. This ability only triggers twice each turn." Note I've omitted "Each creature you control has" from the text box. Wow, they might even has space for flavor text, which could explain where this OP-ass bird was during the Amonkhet block in the first place.
3.) The ability could have been gated behind a mana cost, since Simic is supposed to the the color of endless ramp, and it would have given them a mana sink. This would be the new text: "Creatures you control have 'Whenever this creature becomes the target of a spell or ability, YOU MAY PAY (1) AND reveal the top card of your library. If it's a land card, put it onto the battlefield. Otherwise, put it into your hand. This ability triggers only twice each turn." Stop making things free, Wizards. You suck.
4.) The ability could have put the lands into play tapped, like every other damned ramp card has understood since the dawn of time.
Extra.) Also, an observation of sorts. Why does this card literally secretly give all of it's owner's creatures a one-sided Ward tax that let's them get a two for one for nothing? Why do I have to let you draw a card when I kill your Nadu? Suppose I manage to kill it, you get to can trip for MY efforts?
to expland upon this from a cedh perspective, because this card is kinda ruining cedh atm too, when there are spells that let you just target every one of your creatures, you just respond to a counter or someone elses combo piece and you get to dig 5 cards and put out upward of 5 lands, which INEVITABLY ends up putting you into removal or counter magic and it just feels really hopeless playing against it,
@@brendanstevens537 I will add that while twice per turn is an interesting design space in theory, the way it's implemented here, where it gives the ability to all your creatures, is a bad design due to the horrible tracking issues, especially since it encourages getting complex board states.
Not testing your set for Modern is gonna end up wrecking the format who woulda guessed?
You say that like this is a card that is fair for other formats.
The really surprising part is everyone knew nadu would be the deck to beat and it still had 4/4 representation in the top 4. That’s insane
Saw someone call it hot bird summer 😂
unban fury and violent outburst!!!
Wizards will want more data.
think about how Bant is "brokers". evil money types wanted this... sad what has happened to the game. think about how much Theros duals and filter lands have been printed... they want to devalue when packs were a decent price "old stuff" and have new sealed product be "worth something" its awful...its why collector boosters and commander precons are the same price basically others have said what's more worth your dollar but few see what these people are doing
Also the bird looks like Thoth...the ancient Egyptian God of wisdom etc think about that and eye of providence etc...evil people left too much of a trail on this one and it should be investigated
Yes.
And for good measure hit the Ring and Necro too. You just know Mono B is going to go nuts as soon as the bird goes.
Yall gotta think about the fact that there were Nadu VS Nadu Mirror Matches that made that win percentage go down to 59 percent instead of being in the 60's
Wizzards probably will try banning the "enablers" even tho anything that targets ia a potential combo
The real solution is never again developing a 3 mana simic card that has anything to do with ramp, card draw or elks
Time for a Urza Saga ban? 🤣
The stats alone are a problem. A 3/4 flyer for 3 would be good on its own. No idea how this made it
Wizards would ban shuko first
Birds 100% fine. What does need a ban however is that new ulimog. Im not taking arguments.
That settles it. Gotta unban Hogaak
Yes Nadu absolutely NEEDS a ban. Playing more removal won’t stop it from triggering when targeted, I feel that having it around just stifles other decks from seeing play since it is just so effective, I think that the only thing that will result of “letting the meta develop” as people say will just give Nadu decks more time to develop and also find their own answers. Wotc probably won’t ban the bird right away but they really should.
59% winrate
62.5% top 8 presence
100% top 4
and it won ya its ban worthy
Better question. Why SHOULDN'T we ban the bird? This is not meant to be a leading question. I'd like to hear the argument against banning Nadu immediately
After the Pro Tour there's no argument. Bird's gotta go.
If you ban Nadu, then all of the players who don't actually know how to play the game will be able to continue thinking that they do. So yeah, ban Nadu so the bads can keep their egos.
the drastic comparison of games played alone is worrisome. B A N N E D.
Nadu.. 5/8 top 8!
is less impressive than... Nadu 4/4 top 4!
I don't think it should be banned, I just think the metagame needs some adjusting
Easier to win when you cheat your own teammate out of the quarter-finals.
I'm super happy and proud of Simon who I've known since he was a young man just starting out on his MTG journey. Played against him several times at FNMs and he always handed me my backside! I guess there was a very good reason for that. Should Nadu be banned? Yeah, maybe, unless a catch-all answer comes along to stop it.
@@larsegholmfischmann6594 i read this mentally in a scottish accent and it was so funny thank you
Nah I wanna fight against Nadu, Blade of Miquella.
Is in the f-ing name, ban nadu :v
WOTC making that surprised Pikachu face lol
Good that Splinter Twin is banned :)
I'm extremely confused on why everyone is stuck on whether to ban or not.
Why is no one talking about just making a simple errata, lands enter tapped. If needed, shuko could be banned as well. That would preserve a still strong card in a new archetype, while significantly lowering it's power.
And I know someone is going to say, why ban shuko for nadus crimes? Because shuko sees zero play outside of nadu. No deck gets hurt by removing shuko accept nadu decks.
Lands entering tapped doesn’t balance it. It just becomes the better amulet deck
Thoracle is old news and most of the decks didn't run it because it is unnecessary. You just blow up the lands and bounce any permanents with Otawara and Boseiju and keep doing it over and over with Evoking Endurance and stacking the triggers so Endurance goes into the graveyard and then is shuffled.
let the meta shift around it
If it should be banned it's shouldn't be just because it won, that's what Yugioh does
Nadu should have been banned before release. It was obviously way to broken.
Yeah, we need to ban the bird.
Nadu needs to banned from Modern, and probably Commander, too.
Nah, commander is fine.
Ban him lol
B I R D S U M M E R
Are there any cards that shut it down? Do they expect people to run dress down as “removal” or final showdown maybe? I can’t think of other effective ways to stop something immune to bolt. Maybe wizards wants new types removal used in the format
Yes, the "Deal 5 Damage to Target Creature" kind of removal
make it a 1 of in modern or a 2 of in modern and then ban it as a commander
As feel bad as grief is… is it a necessary evil to keep combo decks in check?
The issue is the scam part and that it's a free spell. The decks do also play Thoughtseize and the Rakdos build also plays Kroxa. So the decks aren't lacking in hand disruption.
The fact that a scam player can play grief for free and then bring it back to the battlefield for one mana to have a 3/2 menace creature and be able to take your opponents best two cards on practically turn zero for your opponent. That's interaction, that's steamrolling your opponent before they even have a chance to play anything.
Look I'm all for interaction, but Grief's design is problematic because of how easily it's abused. Be it fair decks, combo, Aggro, control, and etc.
In modern, maybe. In legacy, it needs to go.
I'm liking your video only to support you and your content, I do not agree with burning the bird just yet. Yes it is a menace but I think it needs to cause more damage first so wizards can sit back and really assess what the power creep has become over the past couple sets. Now I know the modern sets aren't your normal card set. A lot of cards in these are more powerful than what you would see in the main story, but I feel as though some of these cards are getting far too out of hand and creative needs to slow it down a bit before this game turns into Yu-Gi-Oh with consistent one to two turn win conditions.
You know its busted when you bolt the bird and the bird lives... and ramps a million
Unban fury
Just play suppression field
This deck is strait up boring as hell to play against and the fact that i jyst cant scoop to it sucks on mtgo. I have no issue to scooping thing like yawgmoth but watching my opponent combo for 10 mins to nit win is awful. The only good part is shit talking my opponent and then just killing them and they are always like your just playing for time no bro you wasted 10 minutes to not even win your just like eggs and you wiffed and now your dead
Congrats to him, He was lucky the control player was his teammate and knew on how counter his deck, and suncleanser carried so hard
In fairness. At the end of the day, it’s a sorcery speed creature deck. Halfling prevents it from being countered but it being a sorcery speed deck (especially) on the turn it comes out it’s difficult to use (free) counter magic. I saw the deck list of the Jeskai control and it doesn’t seem all that impressive. 1 snap, 1 subtlety. A few spellsnare, etc. being weak to removal REALLY matters here. And well it’s modern. Dies to removal isn’t a great answer but dies to removal + sorcery speed wins.
The cards strong no doubt, deserve a ban. Mehhhh
It's the same shit, different day, as always. One tournament and it's armageddon for the game.
Is this Birdemic!? yes
Yes.
Moving on-
I mean the deck is called banned Nadu 😅
Should nadu be banned? probably.. Should we not cheat and play fairly, and also have judges available when having champion chip matches? probably!
You have to ban other things in the deck first, just like Hogaak, right? I mean Hogaak is the MH1 version of Nadu afterall.
Yeah but those other bans did nothing to slow down Hogaak, same to reason doing that with something like that with Shuko or En-Kor would just end with the same results
I'd say Hogaak proved that banning support pieces can fail, and Nadu is even more dominant than Hogaak was, so the risk is not worth it.
@@hobez64 ...right, and that's the joke. That's also what I expect because of how WotC has operated in the past. Also Modern RCQ starts soon so I can see them trying the same approach.
@@scottcampbell9515 Sorry, I legitimately couldn't tell your original comment was sarcasm, I thought it was serious
@@hobez64 Why not both? We can joke about what WotC has done AND predict what they are most assuredly going to do going forward.
In the business that is what we call a "2-for-1".
He cheated to win. And yes. ban the bird.
Well, if there is only one competitive deck and all the cards are legal you aren’t cheating by playing it.
@matthewblackwood9653 he knew he couldn't target his opponent but target him anyway and won because of it.
@@TheREALIzludez Oof, stand corrected.
I want it banned in commander.
it is just too much. Should be banned
"DECKS ARE GOOD WE SHOULD BAN THEM." Gosh I hate the MTG community
thats not whats being said tho, when a deck is completely, utterly dominant like nadu is right now its just not healthy for the format, what people want is diversity and to play against a variety of decks, not just infinite nadu/ hogak/ eldrazi etc. mirrors, murktide is a great deck, storm is a great deck, but people (generally) arent calling for bans, nadu is just so poorly designed leading to such a dominant position, like that of eldrazi winter and hogak, that it deservves a call for a ban
It's more like
"The deck is quite literally the best out there. Don't play anything else, it isn't worth it. It's Nadu, the gathering"
There is no strategy better than Nadu, so everyone should play Nadu if they want to win.
@@icemilitia do you understand that the banlist exists for a reason? Look at the data quoted in the video. The deck did better at this pro tour than any other broken deck in recent memory.
BOLT the bird
The bird won't die to the bolt, and you just triggered it.
Congrats, you Bolted the bird and not only did it survive, but they won due to it.
@@jasonkorf7700 I know, I mean he was saying burn
@@jasonkorf7700 he should have said bolt the bird instead of burn
Banning cards because they performed well in an event vs adjusting to new metas is why modern is a lame format.
Hes fine. Pro tour had a terrible representation of what the format really is.
didn't happen something similar with Eldrazi winter and Hogaak summer? i mean a deck coming out of nowhere from the last set, getting incredible results in pro tour and latter having it's most important piece banned because the deck is broken
All top 4 are nadu at pro tour but joe blow over here thinks he knows better
Nah dude.
@@D0012D13yeah, dismiss the knowledge of one person, because someone is called a "pro," which is short for PROMOTIONAL. There have NEVER been PAID players on WotC's staff in the entire history of the game. These "pros" are the absolute fucking worst at actually innovation. They play what everyone else plays. Then the million answers that already exist just get overlooked and it's time to call for a ban. Because god forbid that someone actually uses old cards.