Nadu in EDH is one of these decks that make me wanna do anything but play in that pod. Like, I wanna play with others, not watch someone reenact a Slay the Spire vod
I'd rather play against the slivers player than a Nadu player, because at least Slivers change up their gameplan based on which slivers come out first. With Nadu, the gameplan is always the same "empty your deck, play thoracle, insta-win"
Some decks are like fireworks as they go off in a beautiful fashion and everyone is kind of excited to see it, some decks are like a campfire in that they are cozy and predictable, and some decks are like a faulty box of matches in that it takes forever to get a spark going and people would rather you'd brought a lighter.
We've gone from Commanders being payoffs for mechanics to them being the setup AND the payoff in one package to what is just pure packaged value. I'm glad people have come down on the bird really hard right out.
Yeah seriously commanders are very clearly designed to be the best play at any given moment now and it makes everything boring there's no point in doing anything except play modern commanders and I'm saying it as a riku player at least my commander doesn't have built in protection from removal
The fact that’s it’s a commander that can combo insanely well with Lightning Greaves - a.k.a. one of the biggest staples in the Commander format - leads me to believe they just didn’t test this card at all, or they just didn’t care.
because a 3mana 3/3 flying is to weak. Overloaded and overstated. I bet this design mistake is just another failure of Carmen Klomparens... Feels exactly like Chulane to me.
@@danw.1250 "commander creature design"? A legendary clearly designed to be a self contained powerful commander with immediate combo potential with a ham sandwich. And ofc we don't want bad feels when your commander comes out and immediate gets killed so at minimum more toughness then what a lot of creatures on the board would have and more then the most efficient kill spells
I’m so guilty of fake complaining. lol. Which is why when someone complains and it’s just “let me do the obvious busted thing” I pat them on the head and say “no..”
I used to get mad when I repeatedly couldn't untap with my commander. I still feel the sting when it happens, but really it's a roundabout way of telling me to play something that's less of a removal magnet.
@michaelturner2806 that also depends on the playgroup. I have commanders that aren't necessarily broken but always get removed because I'm good at playing those decks and win with them frequently
But imagine needing three people to 'play more removal and work together' just to keep one bird off the table to make it an enjoyable game seems kind of ridiculous :p
People see this and oogle over it but whine when the white player puts down an armageddon. If cards like him exist, people should be able to stomp on its gameplans.
I felt the same way with Golos/Field of the Dead and Ooops All Legends Jodah. So boring. And anyone who plays Thassa's Oracle as a wincon. The most boring, pedestrian win.
to anyone who adamantly wants nadu to stay in edh - have no fear, the RC will just add it to their "watch list" like theyve done with most everything else after banning flash
@@thetrinketmage they havent banned anything in 3 years, despite all the nonsense that's come out since then (especially in the past year). So Im not holding my breath
Hey fellow Fynnster! I tend to run out of gas after taking out 2 players. But things are over pretty quick every game, so I play Fynnster whenever we are trying for a fast game. Or when I am facing down try hard combo decks. How's your experience been?@@oinkleberry
I do this to cedh nadu all the time. I kill the nadu, oko the nadu, etc. etc. Pyroblast it and all. Nadu is not allowed to play. And against myrrim decks, I've seen that exact complaint. The myrrim players complain a lot about their commander dying but I always point my removal at it. Even the other players at the table told me not to because the mirrym cost 10 mana at that point. A couple games later, with the same pod, I said it was the rest of the table's problem to prove my point. The myrrim player won. Who'da thunk
As someone who plays Ur-Dragon and Pantlaza in EDH regularly I do not understand this. If you play a popular and scary Commander do not get butthurt when said Commander gets removed or countered into the fucking sun. I do not care if your Commander costs 10+ to recast. You chose to play that Commander the tax to recast is your problem.
You arent playing cedh if you have the freedom to target the nadu like that Especially when the najeela, kinnan and codie players are breathing down your neck
This is a reason I chose Karrthus as my dragons commander. Innocuous and underrated. Hasty dragons are best dragons. That living end backup is also sweet.
That was me with my Sheldreod deck, and I told my group before hand. Guys, my commander will be killed in spot, I completely understand, I would do the same thing if I'm in your guys spot, and I almost never drop her on the field. She just there chill in command zone. She's just the distraction for my other combos wuhahaahah.
If your opponent is willing to pay the 10 mana to cast it, they’re saying it’s worth 10 mana to get it on board. I know very little 10 mana cards that aren’t huge threats.
If you manage to remove Nadu, they've likely already ramped back into just immediately replaying her which then means they get to run their entire value engine again.
I feel like they could make the trigger's twice per turn part global and nadu would still be relativley strong, but not absurdly broken. and all it would take is moving the quotes defining the ability
it isn't a terrible car, if people actually behave themselves and played it responsibly. but unfortunately, that isn't the case. because not only do Commander players not pay their taxes? but, they also like to be degenerates
When initially read Nadu, I mistakenly thought that the entire effect could only happen twice a turn, not twice PER CREATURE. The first thing I thought about when I reread Nadu was Chulane. I *love* the idea, but in practice it's just not fun for others in the pod in a casual setting. You could make the land enter tapped, or you could make it only happen once per turn per creature, or you could make it happen twice per turn and not creature based. Personally? I think maybe design a simic ability that isn't the 30th iteration of "draw card, play free land" but card games are genuinely hard to design. Casually you're either going to get people who ramp hard and get things over fast, people who ramp hard and sputter out so the table can then descend on them like rabid wolves (and if they don't then that's their fault), or the secret 3rd thing which is people taking 20 minute turns because it genuinely feels good to feel that your deck is 'popping off' and working well. I want people to have that secret 3rd feeling and you can absolutely get some fun going, but I am going to be playing my Horobi Death's Wail deck to make sure your turns aren't 20 minutes.
@@thetrinketmage Its not built for "Commander" its built to work in 60 card constructed, that's why its not boltable. The fact that commander players are too dumb to understand why a build around creature from a Modern Horizons set isn't boltable is telling.
@avatarofcloud it still is above curve though. 1/4 would be more appropriate. Also, the card wouldn't lose to bolt by itself either if it was a 3/3, since you would get at least to draw a card out of the interaction. This isn't just non-boltable but it draws when any interaction is pointed at it regardlesz
@@AresOMegas I don’t understand the bolt argument. There are plenty of strong cards which can’t be bolted, like Sheoldred. And changing the stats to 1/4 would still put Nadu out of bolt range and since the combo decks don’t really care about its power, what would it really change?
@laurentrobitaille2204 it would at least be worse when attacking and blocking, and not strictly above curve in terms of mana spend for its stat line. The standard rate is 3 mana for 3/3, the normal deviation would me 3 mana 2/4, not 3 mana 3/4. That is above rate. Couple it with the powerful effects of flying and value, it would be logical for it to be taxed to a 3 mana 1/4. At 1/4 it still resists getting bolted (although as I said, it already would draw a card when bolted if it was just a 3/3 so I don't know why they would double down on the bolt protection), but at least it would attack for 3 which is good damage when grinding and it wouldn't trade for 3 toughness creatures on defense. Anyway, the card is printed as it is printed, no reason to speculate what-ifs. The tl;dr comment is it is above average in terms of stats with good effect for his mana value, doubling down as a bolt-dodger. The comment on bolt was that even with a lower stat line, it wouldn't be dead in the water vs bolt because it would draw a card
I think above all else the problem isnt that the deck is too strong for the format, the problem is that it's too boring. Unless you are intentionally building inoptimally, every single Nadu deck will look exactly the same, will force players to focus all removal at that player, and will just be another solitare deck where either the table hates them out and they get salty or they don't and the player autowins. There are very, very few commanders that if I saw at a table I would ask the person to swap off of for non power reasons, but Nadu is one of them. Extremely unfun, both as the pilot and as the opponent, and its one of the few commanders that I would say "I will play a maximum of one game against the deck and then never again".
Well there is a balance to be struck. One of the decks is going to be The Threat first and one of the decks is going to be better than you late game. If you focus on the slowest deck, you lose to the fastest deck. If the table survives the fastest 3 decks, then you end up dealing with the slowest deck's strong late game. So you strike a balance where you prevent the faster decks from winning but end the game before the slower decks get an advantage against you.
I was playing with 2 friends and a rando at my local gameshop when I started getting into MtG a month ago. The rando spent 35 minutes on his turn and then my friend spent 20 minutes on his turn before me and my other friend spent 20 seconds on our turns. It was a really boring game for us last two players
I have a similar anecdote to the Miryim thing. First off, this was me, two friends, and a random 4th at the lgs. the random fourth refused to play at our lower power level and brought out Aesi. "YEAHHH there's no tutors or like. fast mana or anything..." Turn 3 he tutored for Dramatic Reveral and imprinted it on Iso. Scepter. He complained when I removed his scepter. then Aesi came out. the only thing I was able to do for like 4 turns was reanimate a grave blade Marauder to force him to sac aesi. the one turn my friend decided to counter my grave blade Marauder, letting the guy untap with aesi. he won that turn bc of it. so like nah if your commander is a massive busted design mistake, it's dying every Chance I can get
To be fair it kind of depends. Aesi is the only thing that makes my Sea Monsters tribal (which is basically 90% his precon except with Scute Swarm and a couple of "sea monster" flavor addiction) somewhat work, otherwise the deck would be just utter garbage. But, I do acknowledge that "the value engine is not problematic in a deck with a whopping total of two not-even-easy wincons and the rest garbage" is not really an argument; at the end of the day, I still expect people to go after my Aesi if I leave him unguarded too much, which is why I never bring him out if I cannot _immediatly_ get something out of it. What I'm saying is just to know your pod, because the same "value commander" can have vastly different impacts depending on the intention of who built the deck.
The first week MH3 was on shelves, there were three nadu decks at the commander night event. I was at a pod with onr of these and the player was frustrated with the immediate and repeated removal of nadu lmao
when you play a powerful commander = accept it will get removed that’s the contract I signed when I play commanders like Korvold, Muldrotha and Lathril
"If you just warp your entire games around the new card, and all work together and built around it, it's completely balanced." You're just describing archenemy, not commander.
It does devolve into an archenemy game. Nadu can lose if the other three players throw some removal at him and beat him down, but the Nadu player won't have fun. I guess it's deserved for playing a commander that reads like a custom card and that wins the game on turn 4
I'm just baffled at how Nadu managed to be accepted through all forms of playtesting. Like, did no one in the testing group take one look at the card and see how cumbersome it can get. See how it plays out? Etc. The factor that everyone and their mom pointed this out on reveal showed this was a problem. This isn't an Oko mistake or Skullclamp last minute adjustment. Did no one that playtested this card actually play it as solitaire lite with the shell structured around her? I find that extremely hard to believe.
@@astrograph7875 Nope, nope, nope. It has been stated by Wizards through various articles they also had an EDH playtesting team for this set. There is no sugarcoating it. Hell there are even EDH decks for the set! Where's the modern preconstructed decks? Oh yeah there is none. And I didn't say its powerlevel due to being broken was the problem. It is how cumbersome it can get which I'd say also exists in 60-card formats.
@@Xhadp The real question is why was there an EDH playtesting team for *Modern* Horizons III to begin with? Does everything have to be Commander related?
As a cedh player, I love Nadu. He's so good. As a casual EDH player whose locals has a 'no infinite' rule that this card certianly doesn't violate but I certianly won't be able to compete with, I hate this card so much lol.
If the EDH rules comity does anything it won't be for months, and it's probably not ban worthy in modern from WOTC. Nadu is definitely a design mistake, but only time will tell what happens officially. In the meantime, friends don't let friends play the bird.
I usually say: If there is easily accessible counterplay then a card is fine. Commander Tax usually balances things out. But Nadu is so easily brought back, that it makes your removal impactless.
We don't. I don't understand why the Committee is a thing if its members are not going to do anything about design mistakes that ruin the format. Like, why is Dockside Extortionist still legal? Everytime anyone drops that card and their deck is slightly optimized, they just win the game on the spot. I do play it too because there is no reason not to (same with Sol Ring), but it's so boring and game warping
Commander solitair is one of my favorite playstyles, but the turn solving the puzzle should be actively pushing towards a win, not just the thing you do turn 3-5 and then win and stopping everybody else
He's boring for the format and will usually be built very boring in general. It could be fun to play if it's more of a unique build. But I agree that it's not something I would even want to build.
I dont know if I agree with the premise that focusing Nadu down would even help, since targeting him gives value and he comes down/creates value so quickly that focusing him down before the board state is established is very difficult. But yeah he def could be banned because of his play patterns for sure, I can see it.
I see there being 3 kinds of Nadu players in casual edh. One that immediately goes off and wins on turn 3 or 4- thats great, it didn't take too much time so let's shuffle up and play again. A second that doesn't build as well and whiffs on turn 3 or 4- now the whole table should see the threat and kill them, so that's fine. A third that plays draw-go for the first few turns until they basically have a win in hand by the mid game- And i agree with Trinket mage that people have to wake up and attack when certain commander players do this. No mercy for smol bean plotters. Get em! But i dont know if this really makes the card ban-worthy, because plenty of storm-ish combo commanders fit into these play patterns
@@wedgearyxsaberthe biggest difference is that Golos costs 5 mana, so he takes longer, and more resources, to get out, and the removals hurt more because of his higher pricetag Compare that to Nadu, who costs 3 mana, and need I mention his big value ability costs absolutely 0 mana for himself to use it?
You gain value once and he die right after, also you only gain value if you target him and only when he is on the board, meaning counterspells are op vs nadu
@@FallenAatroxgood luck when delighted halfling says no to that plan. Also good luck using spot removal after they’ve drawn a shit ton. They won’t have free countermagic at all as you continue drawing them cards.
That's... that's technically basically Pot of Greed, innit? A conditional draw two from deck, per card, except this one's reusable. ... wait, it's worse than I thought - it doesn't have to be the foe's spells or abilities!
I think the bird may actually survive just due to it quickly being viewed as a cEDH commander and not as universally good as golos/engine. But who knows, a big chunk of the ban list is simic value stuff anyways. Add one more to the pile.
The number one sign to me that somebody hasn't learned all of the heuristics of Commander is when they say they are "evening out life totals" instead of focusing one player down. Being on the receiving end of a beat down focus, I can say that it really turns up the heat and makes me scramble to stabilize instead of setting up my engine. It's very much the smart play to turn up the pressure.
@@thetrinketmageIt's a matter of feeling out the pod's preferences and such. Myself I want a more involved game, and didn't like to see players knocked out long before someone wins. I'm one of those that plays to even out life totals and not pursue knockouts, which is ok IF I then don't complain that I lose every game. My enjoyment comes from people getting excited that their decks do their thing. I can set that aside though if it feels the table wants to focus a player out one by one, leaving one player to just twiddle their thumbs for half an hour. I don't like it, and it usually puts me in the situation of being kingmaker, but if it's what the pod wants, I can find a different one if it bothers me too much.
a lot of people are bad players and think it helps the game to prolong it unnecessarily by keeping weak players alive. yeah its nice to have your friend at the table, but every turn you leave him in the more likely he is to cyclonic rift or board wipe to try to reset the game. thats how you wind up with 4 hour commander games that people walk away from because they are bored.
@@thetrinketmage I'm one of those players. Because I know, for a fact, my deck could go from 5-10 dmg to swinging for 35+ commander dmg fairly easily. I could make sure this game only takes 3 rotations around the table, and have before. But knocking out one of my friends, then having him sit there for half an hour doing nothing? That has made people quit our pod. Not my fault he brought Eldrazi when I'm playing a creature heavy deck. I could play a slower deck, but I don't want. I'm a red player at heart. So I throw a little bit of damage around for the first 10 or so spins around the table. Then I decide to try and win. Sometimes I lose. Sometimes I win. What matters to me is that people play the cards and no one quits.
I don't like killing off a player early because I get bored when I'm killed off early so I like to spread the damage, but I normally pack a good amount of removal and that will go at one person if it needs to be. I'll even remove mana rocks if I know it'll slow down powerful decks. If I don't have the removal, I don't rely on others for theirs and I go in for player removal.
and literally every deck with blue and green that can just slap him and get insane value for no deckbuilding cost, be it with some random eqiupment or creature on the battlfield, or by turning every interacion on him bad because he triggers, making you waste a card when the nadu controller went card neutral by casting him
I'd argue that Nadu may not go in EVERY deck but it can certainly go in a great deal more than MERELY his own deck. If your deck is running even a modest amount of cards that can target your own things (even things you might be running incidentally such as Lightning Greaves/Swiftfoot Boots) you'll get a LOT of mileage out of Nadu. And even if you AREN'T doing that, he still makes a great deterrent to your creatures being targeted.
Are there other creatures that give other creatures a full text box worth of abilities? I only really ever saw “creatures you control gain tap deal 1 damage” or 1 simple ability. Why all the words goodness.
I was always surprised Hullbreacher got banned. It couldn’t even be your Commander. Hullbreacher Wheeling was awesome. It’s not natural for everyone to have a handful of cards. This only exists in Magic 2020 and after.
I can understand casual players being frustrated by removal and interaction, but interaction is honestly the most fun part of the game. I won't deny that removal can make your game miserable though, as when I first started I was playing kitchen table multiplayer against 3 players holding multiple doomblades and mine was the only non-black deck.
Removal is frustrating because most players don't know how to use it. They will usually use it on the aggro player because he dared play some stuff early, while conveniently ignoring the actual kill-on-sight commander that will probably win the game as soon as it untaps. If you want easy wins, play control decks with very few creatures. I went on a 22 games winstreak at some point because players would equalize life instead of focusing me and, while I was clearly the issue, I didn't have much on board to interact with, so they threw removal at each other
I have been in a few scenarios where my opponent had played with decks that enable him to kill my creatures each term with only one attack. I didn't get to do a damn thing. All I did was watch him destroy my stuff. not really fun. then there was that time he played magus of the Moon. I'm sure you see my point.
This is a great take. My buddy complained about hitting his exile Rocco when I'm playing a graveyard deck and I'm like, you're shutting off my game plan of course I'm going to target you.
Nadu is the quintessential example of kill on sight. And if the player gets salty that your game plan revolves around constantly interacting with their commander, just keep mining that delicious salt.
Even though people should, you can't always rely on either your opponents to be running enough removal or for the nadu player to run a wincon in the deck instead of wasting time. Imagine trying to start a pod at an LGS and the 4th player sits down with this deck. Are you gonna ask them a bunch of question about how the deck is built and does it actually have a win condition with the commander combo? See that just sounds like rule zero'ing at the start of the game already. It'd be alot easier just to outright ban the card in edh (at the very least casual) and if someone really wants to play it then as i said it can be rule zero'd and allowed
I love the idea that we as a community can improve and “control” the explosiveness of decks/cards like Nadu. “Sure you can sit down and play at our casual table with your Nadu deck, we all play plenty of interaction though so I hope you came prepared!”
The new Nadu problem is that it was _so entirely_ broken that it makes many extremely pushed cards look downright benign in comparison, and warps the entire conversation about running (or even banning) high power cards.
I think Nadu could be interesting in a fight deck. Throwing your creatures at your opponents’ seems like a fun way to build around him without making the deck too busted.
Atleast for edh this guy NEEDS equipment in order to go crazy. Most games I've seen people have the removal for shuko or grieves, the nadu player falls off super hard. But yeah I'm not saying it isn't a problem but I think it should be banned in casual but not in cedh, we need commanders to contest the might of bowmaster. Also we printed a better guilded drake because it can sacrifice stacks pieces by refusing to pay the energy.
There’s several old enchantments and spells that just change the color of target creature/permanent, so they can still get out of hand even if you exile their equipment.
This is why I will never dismantle my Stax deck, I D G A F how much they cry when they can't go bonkers with their broken commanders. Between watching someone playing a 30min turn and nobody being able to do anything, Imma choose the latter.
I think you can be on-track if things keep up and the community doesn't adjust. I've even been hearing about parts of the cEDH community taking issue with the guy, though this is more anecdotal than not. Which is funny because I really just see Nadu as a UG Ad Nauseam with extra steps as it requires more game pieces to actually get going than straight-up Ad Naus, while being in a color that may not be able to immediately translate that into a win without access to Breach-Freeze and Thoracle-Consultation. My take is that it stems from unfamiliarity, which isn't a first for both the casual and cEDH communities as a whole, and only time will be able to tell us if people are able to adjust. Changing in interaction package profiles for cEDH, and maybe player behaviour to actually both run more interaction and be willing to use them could be exactly what we need for us to grow as a community. Honestly didn't expect to see Nadu start breaching the casual space though, and thanks for making this video about it. Love your work, Trinket Mage!
great point on kill on sights commanders/spot removals, some people take like a personal attack if you target his things (bro got a urza with winter orb etc and don't want to be targeted)
So many whiners gathered here. Nadu is good, no need to ban it. Gladly will play against it. Get some counter magic or just win before. Easy =) There are a lot of good value engines. Atraxa, Grand Unifier and Etali, Primal Conqueror are also great. The Nadu is not a problem, problem is inside heads.
This card just WotC's current representation of failing card design. Its another example of a lack of adults in the room to check lil johnny's work. It smacks of Oko, Uro, and Hogaak vibes. I can see the re-quote on the mothership 2 months from now, "We never thought players would target their own stuff!" (Ala Oko). Like, why does this thing trigger for anything either player casts, instead of just an opponent? Why is it allowed to trigger twice per creature per turn, and not just twice per turn? Why does it put lands in untapped? Why is a 3/4 flyer for 3? I find it fully disheartening to see this time, after time, after time.
Bird should have just said “whenever a creature you control becomes the target of a spell or ability, (growth spiral effect thing). This ability triggers only twice (or could have been once) per turn” so it may be 2 cards a turn max, not minimum
While I agree that players shouldn't feel bad about repeatedly removing must answer commanders, or attacking decks with late game inevitability in the early game, I don't think that really helps too much against Nadu. Nadu comes down on turn two or turn three, so this is hardly late game inevitability, and repeatedly removing. Removing Nadu doesn't even really help, since assuming the Nadu player gets at least one trigger before you get your removal spell on the stack, they're still drawing two cards. Each time they cast their Commander easily letting them cast it again. Next turn, very similar to the problem with golos.
i get the logic of what to do when someone brings a "problematic" commander but a call to basically bully someone out of the game for daring to play that deck is never going to feel ok i fear. i'm not saying it's wrong to do it, but everyone involved will also have to reckon that, because they picked the wrong commander, they just do not get to play.
I think the point about how often you can trigger the ability is a great one. It’s like Esper Sent, Rhystic Study and Tithe in that the power is only half the problem. The other half is how obnoxious it is to have those abilities go off every single turn or play
Nadu was "designed for Commander", like 90% of cards are nowadays. And surprise, it's toxic and overpowered. WotC needs to stop designing "for Commander" full stop. If it can't go into a constructed format without warping it, don't (intentionally) print it. Remember when cards had flavor text? Cards doing one thing, which you paid mana for? Why is Magic now designed on infinite value on every piece of cardboard? I'm sick of it.
I think I somewhat disagree with the take that Nadu slots into decks as easily as something like Paradox Engine or Hullbreacher. Compared those those types of cards, I think Nadu is a lot more niche. The most obvious limiting factors are the colors. Paradox Engine could literally just go into any deck no matter the colors, Hullbreacher only into blue decks but it was still very splashable. 2nd is that the barrier of entry for these other 2 is much lower. The only real requirement for Paradox Engine to work is that you have things that care about being untapped (which almost all decks have in the form of dorks or rocks) and that you cast spells which...yeah every deck does that. Hullbreacher is perhaps also somewhat niche, not every deck plays wheels, but a lot of decks can also just play it as a very oppressive, feel-bad hate piece outside of those decks. of course slotting it into a casual wheel deck only made it worse. Nadu on the other hand requires you to actively want to target your own things, which I'd argue not every deck really actively does. The main ones in these colors I can think of are maybe simic/bant flicker decks and things like Ivy that actively cast a lot of targeting spells. Flicker is a fairly popular archetype, but I think Nadu's colors does still limit the amount of decks it actually ends up showing up in. So compared to the other 2 you mentioned, I'd argue Nadu slots into a lot less decks as part of the 99. The main way for Nadu to become oppressive is when he's actively being built around as a commander, and I think this is perhaps something that pods can kind of manage on their own, by agreeing that Nadu should only be played in a high power context, much like it's fairly commonly agreed upon that you probably shouldn't bring something like Urza, High Lord Artificer to a lower power pod. Imo, it remains to be seen if Nadu really needs to be banned. I do think it is a very poorly designed card, busted in so many ways that could've easily been prevented, but I think it could very well end up as one of those cards that the format ends up kinda self-moderating.
Can't errata it easily though since it is part of its rules text rather than reminders text like companion. And if you do errata it for the sake of errating it then you set a dangerous precedent that Wizards can change the text of the card you bought.
I’ve never agreed with a video of yours more. Another huge problem with Nadu is that when he comes down, if he’s not answered as he comes down (through counter spells as well), then it’s game over, and he can consistently do it turns 3-6. I definitely want him banned, he is a horribly designed card that is too easy to make too strong for casual.
Nadu will land next to myrrim, voja, yuriko, and every other super high powered “casual” commander. Ruining people’s play experience one value pile at a time. It bothers me how close the casual and competitive builds of this will be 85% the same, just like the commanders I listed earlier, but it’s unlikely to catch a ban.
@@angelofsolitude7951 which honestly I think highlights the real problem: it’s not about cedh viability, it’s about cedh ease? If that makes sense? It’s the fact that the commander asks virtually nothing of you and in return you get competitive levels of advantage. (Not necessarily actual competitive advantage, but it would look like that to the uninformed) Voja is effectively a craterhoof every turn that stacks. That’s a 1-2 turn clock, even if it’s coming down on turn 3-4, which isn’t hard to do. And the deck building requirement to get you that speed is trivially easy, it’s what you were going to do anyways. Myrrim is a casual fun dragon, yes, until you realize they have to 1) land their commander 2) play any dragon that has ETB do something stupid. Terror of the peaks, sure. Now the game is over for what? Like 11 mana? That number sounds awfully familiar. And the commander PROTECTS ITSELF. Cedh is for easy wincons with hard-fought stacks. These legends are so good at being built high power that it’s impossible to build them low or mid. Easy wincon, no stack fight to get anything done.
Have played against 1 Nadu deck - it took agreement between 2 Minsc and Boo decks and an Ur-Dragon to kill it before it got out of hand, and we only just got it in time. Anything that is doing that so early that fast decks are struggling to have any chance to counter tells you it needs a ban hammer.
I put Hinata into an EDH deck and built some fun synergy with targeting and realized quickly how utterly broken it was and took apart that deck. Nadu will hopefully be similar.
Honestly Krak/Sakashima have the same issue as nadu, where they have long turns doing things to see "if" they win that turn. Krak/Sakashima just has never really been popular outside of cEDH and honestly I think that's what determines if Nadu will get banned or not. If he's played alot in casual, He'll get banned. If he's only played in cEDH, then I don't see him getting banned. At this point, I think cEDH and casual should just have separate banlists. I'm just really hoping he avoids the ban hammar since I hate seeing cards banned in cEDH simply because "it's too good in casual". Kills creativity for the format and shouldn't be how a banlist is run.
I don't think it will get banned, Just because it still does have counter play and really it is stuck in the like simic landfall archetype, Which isn't the strongest when it comes to cedh. Golos got banned because he had no counter play what's so ever was five colour and himself colourless. He had the same problem to the bird but even worse, By just casting the commander would result in having like 17+ mana between turns 2 or 5 and that would happen every game with out fail. this is all before talking about his killer last ability. So ya comparing That, our most notable commander ban to Nadu I don't really think he will be banned. He really isn't a problem unless we're talking about a mid power table. That's we're he'll be the biggest problem.
You're not really right about the archetypes. Nadu is amazing for any UG, for G, cut out all larger ramp cause Nadu+some self-targeting is all you need, and same for U with draw. Still, idk if he completely survives cEDH focusing. Even if one other player is blanking, can Nadu 1v2 two other decks? Actually, now that I think about it, probably yes. As mentioned, Nadu + 1 source of self-target is 12+ cards a cycle (3+ per turn), of which the lands come into play untapped. That's untapped ramp for 3+ and 5+ potential pieces of interaction - which is literally more than the standard amount 3 other players can do. So, play, say, a dozen pieces of self-target and that's guaranteed to happen every game around turn 3. You don't need more than a very few pieces of hard payoff as if you're drawing 12 per cycle, you'll very consistently find what you need. Basically, as long as Nadu is on the table, no one can afford not to continue holding up interaction, since once Nadu is on the field backed up by interaction, it's GG. Yep, that's Golos basically, minus the 5-color identity.
@@bluerendar2194 Okay, Right so I looked at some of the Cedh deck lists, For what you are describing there only 4 cards in the whole deck that allows for this interaction being Aphetto Alchemist, seeker of Skybreak both of which suffer from summoning sickness, Unctus, Grand Metatect which you must pay life for and Sylvan safekeeper that you have to sac land to activate. So it is not like this deck has 20 cards that can do what you are describing and a simple path to exile or counter spell can deal with those, That was not the same for Golos as you couldn't counter the things you get from his abilities and him simply entering the battlefield netted you huge consistent value. For this deck to win anyway in a reasonable amount of time like turn 0 to like turn 5 you wouldn't have a board state to win outright with Thassa's oracle so this also still needs the normal expected-to-see infinite combo like in every other cedh deck with this case being displacer kitten and like 5 different cards. Your only point is that It might if they draw well and no one has counters it can ramp and get to play 1 of the 4 cards that get them 12+ cards by the time they get to their turn, By the way only 2 of those cards let you do that turn 1 or 0 and that's with paying 24 life or sac 12 lands. Golo's got value instantly as he entered and the game was over if he used his ability once. They are not the same. So comparing the Two I think Nadu will be strong but nothing crazy strong In a high power Cedh game.
@@zachdaly6890 There's also 8 creature tutors and 3 recurrers in the deck, so.... And, Nadu does gets value as soon as resolution. Targeting Nadu draws cards, so both targeting interaction and protection draws cards - on the latter, turning any protection spell into a protection+cycling spell, and also cycling to another protection/interaction or closer to a combo card - basically allowing the Nadu player to 1-for-1 match each piece of interaction from all three players.
@@bluerendar2194 Please think for a moment before replying, About how much mana would be required for the thing you are proposing, Also, Remember that in the game of mtg, You start with 7 cards and you draw if you are not on turn 0 and some of those cards have mana symbols that have color requirements to pay before being able to cast them.Then think about how likely you are to draw things or not to see how consistent or not consistent your ideas may be. Also, think about the fact that in cedh games will usually end by turn 3 or at the latest turn 6 but it is also a common occurrence for people to win by turn 2 or 1 and even turn 0, I myself won twice in a row on turn 0 with my mono black Krik deck I was very happy and was bullied for the rest of the night. Now if you follow everything I just said too in this reply, I am hoping You will realize the rather staggering amount of mistakes you made in your reply, That has also really put into question for me whether or not you have ever played cedh and if you don't mind may I ask what you run for cedh?
the 4 games ive had against a nadu deck have been ok nothing super crazy but that could be just bad draws on the nadu side or all of us focusing it everytime it came out
Nadu in EDH is one of these decks that make me wanna do anything but play in that pod. Like, I wanna play with others, not watch someone reenact a Slay the Spire vod
I'd rather play against the slivers player than a Nadu player, because at least Slivers change up their gameplan based on which slivers come out first. With Nadu, the gameplan is always the same "empty your deck, play thoracle, insta-win"
Lmao good way to put it
@@sev1120 most cedh versions arent on thoracle but essentially the same
Nadu, Judith, Tergrid and....... YOU...... :D
Agreed, i always just concede jn arena, if i see someone bring it to a pod ima just stand up and go
Some decks are like fireworks as they go off in a beautiful fashion and everyone is kind of excited to see it, some decks are like a campfire in that they are cozy and predictable, and some decks are like a faulty box of matches in that it takes forever to get a spark going and people would rather you'd brought a lighter.
thats a BAR
Nicely put.
We've gone from Commanders being payoffs for mechanics to them being the setup AND the payoff in one package to what is just pure packaged value. I'm glad people have come down on the bird really hard right out.
Yeah seriously commanders are very clearly designed to be the best play at any given moment now and it makes everything boring there's no point in doing anything except play modern commanders and I'm saying it as a riku player at least my commander doesn't have built in protection from removal
I've got a nadu brawl deck on arena and it's just insane. I just pump mana into simic ascendancy and win.
The fact that’s it’s a commander that can combo insanely well with Lightning Greaves - a.k.a. one of the biggest staples in the Commander format - leads me to believe they just didn’t test this card at all, or they just didn’t care.
Bolt the bird, oh wait 4 toughness.
because a 3mana 3/3 flying is to weak. Overloaded and overstated. I bet this design mistake is just another failure of Carmen Klomparens... Feels exactly like Chulane to me.
if you're playing lightning bolt in commander, you deserve that outcome lol
@@aidenpearce6624 it would be nice to be able to put a name to this failure of card design.
@@danw.1250It's got one, it's Nadu
@@danw.1250 "commander creature design"? A legendary clearly designed to be a self contained powerful commander with immediate combo potential with a ham sandwich. And ofc we don't want bad feels when your commander comes out and immediate gets killed so at minimum more toughness then what a lot of creatures on the board would have and more then the most efficient kill spells
"Show no mercy" really is the most important thing. If they are pulling out the complaints always double down.
I just refuse to play against Nadu. Scoop. Seeya
I’m so guilty of fake complaining. lol.
Which is why when someone complains and it’s just “let me do the obvious busted thing” I pat them on the head and say “no..”
I used to get mad when I repeatedly couldn't untap with my commander. I still feel the sting when it happens, but really it's a roundabout way of telling me to play something that's less of a removal magnet.
@@breyor1 lol we've all done it for sure
@michaelturner2806 that also depends on the playgroup. I have commanders that aren't necessarily broken but always get removed because I'm good at playing those decks and win with them frequently
"If players play more removal, work together, and are responsible, then Nadu will be a fine card." Yeah, that is not happening anytime soon.
Sadly… yea
But imagine needing three people to 'play more removal and work together' just to keep one bird off the table to make it an enjoyable game seems kind of ridiculous :p
People see this and oogle over it but whine when the white player puts down an armageddon. If cards like him exist, people should be able to stomp on its gameplans.
@@KillerQueenNL More realistic: You sit down against three Nadu players
@@KillerQueenNLThassa’s Oracle has entered the chat…
“Am I nothing to you?”
He will make an excellent addition to my Golos banned tribal "One Time At Banned Camp"
Nadu hits that same area I see Chulane in, where im just gonna be bored looking at it and going "oh wow, so much value, real original"
Same reaction when I see people still running sol ring, command tower, all the top 50 commanders, etc, this format is so cooked.
@@snowys4168 That's a terrible comparison.
@snowys4168 ah yes command tower is clearly too much of a resource. Ruined the game. L take lmao.
I felt the same way with Golos/Field of the Dead and Ooops All Legends Jodah. So boring. And anyone who plays Thassa's Oracle as a wincon. The most boring, pedestrian win.
@@snowys4168so true, every player I see just runs basic lands and it’s like wow, couldn’t come up with anything original I guess
to anyone who adamantly wants nadu to stay in edh - have no fear, the RC will just add it to their "watch list" like theyve done with most everything else after banning flash
That is a possibility for sure
@@thetrinketmage they havent banned anything in 3 years, despite all the nonsense that's come out since then (especially in the past year). So Im not holding my breath
@@Knightfall8When did they ban Primeval Titan?
@@jaycue7641 September 2012
Yup, and flash was fine. Idgaf about cEDH, they can make their own banlist.
“don’t apologize, i’m trying to kill you” is a line that i have to drop like twice per game playing infect lol
My life as a Fynn player
Same lol
Lol i'm stealing this line
Hey fellow Fynnster! I tend to run out of gas after taking out 2 players. But things are over pretty quick every game, so I play Fynnster whenever we are trying for a fast game. Or when I am facing down try hard combo decks. How's your experience been?@@oinkleberry
I do this to cedh nadu all the time. I kill the nadu, oko the nadu, etc. etc. Pyroblast it and all. Nadu is not allowed to play.
And against myrrim decks, I've seen that exact complaint.
The myrrim players complain a lot about their commander dying but I always point my removal at it.
Even the other players at the table told me not to because the mirrym cost 10 mana at that point.
A couple games later, with the same pod, I said it was the rest of the table's problem to prove my point.
The myrrim player won.
Who'da thunk
As someone who plays Ur-Dragon and Pantlaza in EDH regularly I do not understand this. If you play a popular and scary Commander do not get butthurt when said Commander gets removed or countered into the fucking sun. I do not care if your Commander costs 10+ to recast. You chose to play that Commander the tax to recast is your problem.
You arent playing cedh if you have the freedom to target the nadu like that
Especially when the najeela, kinnan and codie players are breathing down your neck
This is a reason I chose Karrthus as my dragons commander. Innocuous and underrated. Hasty dragons are best dragons. That living end backup is also sweet.
That was me with my Sheldreod deck, and I told my group before hand.
Guys, my commander will be killed in spot, I completely understand, I would do the same thing if I'm in your guys spot, and I almost never drop her on the field. She just there chill in command zone.
She's just the distraction for my other combos wuhahaahah.
If your opponent is willing to pay the 10 mana to cast it, they’re saying it’s worth 10 mana to get it on board. I know very little 10 mana cards that aren’t huge threats.
Friends don't let their friends play the bird.
So many of the people at my lgs have banned me from building him 😂😂😂
Good. No one wants to watch solitare, and this card plays solitare with a large portion of the cardbase.@TheDevonshireMint
@@7fatrats oh I know..and tbh the more I thought about it the less I wanted to build it.
We had someone (the usual suspect) show up with it yesterday. I'm brewing a hate deck especially.
And people thought Eldrazi were the worse thing to come out of the set.
And let's not forget, even IF you manage to remove Nadu... they STILL have a simic value pile.
Not really. The deck is pretty bad without Nadu.
@@BlooMoon94 Depends how you build it I suppose. If you go all in on cards like Shuko I could see it being pretty bad if Nadu gets removed.
@@zackkelley2940 thats what you would genuinly do. Why not build the deck to support your degenerate commander?
If you manage to remove Nadu, they've likely already ramped back into just immediately replaying her which then means they get to run their entire value engine again.
@@IVIaskerade Not if you counter the bird the first and second time
I feel like they could make the trigger's twice per turn part global and nadu would still be relativley strong, but not absurdly broken. and all it would take is moving the quotes defining the ability
Literally would’ve fixed the card if they moved the quotation mark a single line up 😂
it isn't a terrible car, if people actually behave themselves and played it responsibly. but unfortunately, that isn't the case. because not only do Commander players not pay their taxes? but, they also like to be degenerates
Im a yugioh player. I misunderstood this card Twice, why it isnt global
You can ban it right after I sell these few Shuko I had just found out are now worth $30 after having them in my bulk for almost 20 years.
I’ll let the RC know to hold off for a bit
@@thetrinketmage My man.
there like 44.00 now for shuko
Aight they sold, meaning my broke ass is slightly less broke. Carry on y'all
@@PerpetuallyTiredMillennial hustle
It's storm without the keyword wincon. Storm is back babay!
Funny how I made a video about storm not being a thing anymore and then MH3 prints this and makes storm come back in modern
"If you're playing a casual nadu deck"
I laughed way too hard at this.
When initially read Nadu, I mistakenly thought that the entire effect could only happen twice a turn, not twice PER CREATURE. The first thing I thought about when I reread Nadu was Chulane. I *love* the idea, but in practice it's just not fun for others in the pod in a casual setting. You could make the land enter tapped, or you could make it only happen once per turn per creature, or you could make it happen twice per turn and not creature based. Personally? I think maybe design a simic ability that isn't the 30th iteration of "draw card, play free land" but card games are genuinely hard to design.
Casually you're either going to get people who ramp hard and get things over fast, people who ramp hard and sputter out so the table can then descend on them like rabid wolves (and if they don't then that's their fault), or the secret 3rd thing which is people taking 20 minute turns because it genuinely feels good to feel that your deck is 'popping off' and working well. I want people to have that secret 3rd feeling and you can absolutely get some fun going, but I am going to be playing my Horobi Death's Wail deck to make sure your turns aren't 20 minutes.
5 years ago, it would have been a 1/3 with flying. What's this 3/4 for 3 mana?
The raw stats are insane on this card
@@thetrinketmage Its not built for "Commander" its built to work in 60 card constructed, that's why its not boltable. The fact that commander players are too dumb to understand why a build around creature from a Modern Horizons set isn't boltable is telling.
@avatarofcloud it still is above curve though. 1/4 would be more appropriate. Also, the card wouldn't lose to bolt by itself either if it was a 3/3, since you would get at least to draw a card out of the interaction. This isn't just non-boltable but it draws when any interaction is pointed at it regardlesz
@@AresOMegas I don’t understand the bolt argument. There are plenty of strong cards which can’t be bolted, like Sheoldred. And changing the stats to 1/4 would still put Nadu out of bolt range and since the combo decks don’t really care about its power, what would it really change?
@laurentrobitaille2204 it would at least be worse when attacking and blocking, and not strictly above curve in terms of mana spend for its stat line. The standard rate is 3 mana for 3/3, the normal deviation would me 3 mana 2/4, not 3 mana 3/4. That is above rate. Couple it with the powerful effects of flying and value, it would be logical for it to be taxed to a 3 mana 1/4.
At 1/4 it still resists getting bolted (although as I said, it already would draw a card when bolted if it was just a 3/3 so I don't know why they would double down on the bolt protection), but at least it would attack for 3 which is good damage when grinding and it wouldn't trade for 3 toughness creatures on defense.
Anyway, the card is printed as it is printed, no reason to speculate what-ifs. The tl;dr comment is it is above average in terms of stats with good effect for his mana value, doubling down as a bolt-dodger.
The comment on bolt was that even with a lower stat line, it wouldn't be dead in the water vs bolt because it would draw a card
I think above all else the problem isnt that the deck is too strong for the format, the problem is that it's too boring. Unless you are intentionally building inoptimally, every single Nadu deck will look exactly the same, will force players to focus all removal at that player, and will just be another solitare deck where either the table hates them out and they get salty or they don't and the player autowins. There are very, very few commanders that if I saw at a table I would ask the person to swap off of for non power reasons, but Nadu is one of them. Extremely unfun, both as the pilot and as the opponent, and its one of the few commanders that I would say "I will play a maximum of one game against the deck and then never again".
Targeting the decks with better late games is at once trivially obvious yet a mind-blowing revelation.
i don't think turn 4 is very late game
I can’t i’m too busy building up to my late game 😎
Well there is a balance to be struck. One of the decks is going to be The Threat first and one of the decks is going to be better than you late game. If you focus on the slowest deck, you lose to the fastest deck. If the table survives the fastest 3 decks, then you end up dealing with the slowest deck's strong late game.
So you strike a balance where you prevent the faster decks from winning but end the game before the slower decks get an advantage against you.
"I'm sure Ruby storm is the better combo deck". So this aged like a glass of milk on a warm summer's day. :D
My favorite thing in magic is when my opponent has a 30 minute turn 4
I was playing with 2 friends and a rando at my local gameshop when I started getting into MtG a month ago. The rando spent 35 minutes on his turn and then my friend spent 20 minutes on his turn before me and my other friend spent 20 seconds on our turns. It was a really boring game for us last two players
I have a similar anecdote to the Miryim thing. First off, this was me, two friends, and a random 4th at the lgs. the random fourth refused to play at our lower power level and brought out Aesi. "YEAHHH there's no tutors or like. fast mana or anything..."
Turn 3 he tutored for Dramatic Reveral and imprinted it on Iso. Scepter. He complained when I removed his scepter. then Aesi came out. the only thing I was able to do for like 4 turns was reanimate a grave blade Marauder to force him to sac aesi. the one turn my friend decided to counter my grave blade Marauder, letting the guy untap with aesi. he won that turn bc of it. so like nah if your commander is a massive busted design mistake, it's dying every Chance I can get
To be fair it kind of depends. Aesi is the only thing that makes my Sea Monsters tribal (which is basically 90% his precon except with Scute Swarm and a couple of "sea monster" flavor addiction) somewhat work, otherwise the deck would be just utter garbage. But, I do acknowledge that "the value engine is not problematic in a deck with a whopping total of two not-even-easy wincons and the rest garbage" is not really an argument; at the end of the day, I still expect people to go after my Aesi if I leave him unguarded too much, which is why I never bring him out if I cannot _immediatly_ get something out of it. What I'm saying is just to know your pod, because the same "value commander" can have vastly different impacts depending on the intention of who built the deck.
The first week MH3 was on shelves, there were three nadu decks at the commander night event. I was at a pod with onr of these and the player was frustrated with the immediate and repeated removal of nadu lmao
I hate it when people play must remove commanders and then cry when that happens.
They were in Simic, it’s their fault for not having 20 counter spells before trying anything. 🤣
@@Ulim151 to be fair, basically every commander out there is a must remove if it has any remote synergy with the deck it’s heading up.
@@kozad86 Nadu can turn even a PL1 into a cEDH tier deck with a staple card: Lightning Greaves
when you play a powerful commander = accept it will get removed
that’s the contract I signed when I play commanders like Korvold, Muldrotha and Lathril
"If you just warp your entire games around the new card, and all work together and built around it, it's completely balanced."
You're just describing archenemy, not commander.
It does devolve into an archenemy game. Nadu can lose if the other three players throw some removal at him and beat him down, but the Nadu player won't have fun. I guess it's deserved for playing a commander that reads like a custom card and that wins the game on turn 4
"If the 3 of you team up for 5 turns in a row, you'll see how balanced it is" 😉
New drinking game: take a shot every time wizards prints a Simic legend that generates waaaaay to much value
(Dont do this, you'll die)
I'm just baffled at how Nadu managed to be accepted through all forms of playtesting. Like, did no one in the testing group take one look at the card and see how cumbersome it can get. See how it plays out? Etc. The factor that everyone and their mom pointed this out on reveal showed this was a problem. This isn't an Oko mistake or Skullclamp last minute adjustment.
Did no one that playtested this card actually play it as solitaire lite with the shell structured around her? I find that extremely hard to believe.
Wizards followed everybody's advice and made a fun limited card instead of designing for commander
This card isn't made for you casual commander fuckheads. Its made for limited chads and 60 card chads. Go away
@@astrograph7875 Nope, nope, nope. It has been stated by Wizards through various articles they also had an EDH playtesting team for this set. There is no sugarcoating it. Hell there are even EDH decks for the set! Where's the modern preconstructed decks? Oh yeah there is none.
And I didn't say its powerlevel due to being broken was the problem. It is how cumbersome it can get which I'd say also exists in 60-card formats.
@@Xhadp The real question is why was there an EDH playtesting team for *Modern* Horizons III to begin with? Does everything have to be Commander related?
@laurentrobitaille2204 Unfortunately, Edh needs its equal appreciation cake
Like fine wine.
"my commander cost 8 mana, don't counter me"
"Ok, im gonna steal it then"
Me, a dimir rouges.
As a cedh player, I love Nadu. He's so good. As a casual EDH player whose locals has a 'no infinite' rule that this card certianly doesn't violate but I certianly won't be able to compete with, I hate this card so much lol.
If Nadu passes I Armageddon. It's only fair.
So true bestie
If they have Nadu and the ability to target things for free out already, does that work? They will rebuild much faster than anyone else...
Thankfully, the gloves equip for free 💀
@@abeybaebe2514 sad but true.
and Jokulhops, Obliterate, defree of annihilation... hey, Jhoira of the Ghitsu is looking awesome again.
Have fun with your Nadu decks for a week until the banlist corrects this godforsaken creature
If the EDH rules comity does anything it won't be for months, and it's probably not ban worthy in modern from WOTC. Nadu is definitely a design mistake, but only time will tell what happens officially. In the meantime, friends don't let friends play the bird.
I usually say: If there is easily accessible counterplay then a card is fine. Commander Tax usually balances things out. But Nadu is so easily brought back, that it makes your removal impactless.
Nadu is a test to see whether we actually have a functioning Rules Committee or not
We don't. I don't understand why the Committee is a thing if its members are not going to do anything about design mistakes that ruin the format. Like, why is Dockside Extortionist still legal? Everytime anyone drops that card and their deck is slightly optimized, they just win the game on the spot. I do play it too because there is no reason not to (same with Sol Ring), but it's so boring and game warping
Commander solitair is one of my favorite playstyles, but the turn solving the puzzle should be actively pushing towards a win, not just the thing you do turn 3-5 and then win and stopping everybody else
he's painfully boring imo
Facts
Simic
“He is Naduing much in this format,” said no one
He's boring for the format and will usually be built very boring in general. It could be fun to play if it's more of a unique build. But I agree that it's not something I would even want to build.
Any game where a player starts their turn and everyone else F6’s and pulls their phone out is a bad time.
In short, Ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves
I dont know if I agree with the premise that focusing Nadu down would even help, since targeting him gives value and he comes down/creates value so quickly that focusing him down before the board state is established is very difficult. But yeah he def could be banned because of his play patterns for sure, I can see it.
He basically is a golos in the sense you can recuperate his commander tax just from people's removal spells or by just playing the game and using him
I see there being 3 kinds of Nadu players in casual edh.
One that immediately goes off and wins on turn 3 or 4- thats great, it didn't take too much time so let's shuffle up and play again.
A second that doesn't build as well and whiffs on turn 3 or 4- now the whole table should see the threat and kill them, so that's fine.
A third that plays draw-go for the first few turns until they basically have a win in hand by the mid game- And i agree with Trinket mage that people have to wake up and attack when certain commander players do this. No mercy for smol bean plotters. Get em!
But i dont know if this really makes the card ban-worthy, because plenty of storm-ish combo commanders fit into these play patterns
@@wedgearyxsaberthe biggest difference is that Golos costs 5 mana, so he takes longer, and more resources, to get out, and the removals hurt more because of his higher pricetag
Compare that to Nadu, who costs 3 mana, and need I mention his big value ability costs absolutely 0 mana for himself to use it?
You gain value once and he die right after, also you only gain value if you target him and only when he is on the board, meaning counterspells are op vs nadu
@@FallenAatroxgood luck when delighted halfling says no to that plan. Also good luck using spot removal after they’ve drawn a shit ton. They won’t have free countermagic at all as you continue drawing them cards.
I love how they put "this ability only triggers twice each turn" on Nadu like it does anything.
?? it prevents winning on the spot with just alchemist and boots
@@Ash-dp9woYeah instead they just win on the spot with something else instead, great design you got there Wizards.
Lmao, I'm sorry- a WHAT alchemist!?
I heard that too!
This is now my go to TH-cam page for all EDH discussions.
Everyone get your harsh mentors out until the inevitable ban
that's a good solution, thank you :D
It's Tunnel Ignis' time to shine.
Confounding Conundrum my beloved, no ramp for you
It’s not getting banned…
That's... that's technically basically Pot of Greed, innit? A conditional draw two from deck, per card, except this one's reusable.
... wait, it's worse than I thought - it doesn't have to be the foe's spells or abilities!
babe, wake up! new trinket mage video!
I think the bird may actually survive just due to it quickly being viewed as a cEDH commander and not as universally good as golos/engine. But who knows, a big chunk of the ban list is simic value stuff anyways. Add one more to the pile.
The number one sign to me that somebody hasn't learned all of the heuristics of Commander is when they say they are "evening out life totals" instead of focusing one player down.
Being on the receiving end of a beat down focus, I can say that it really turns up the heat and makes me scramble to stabilize instead of setting up my engine.
It's very much the smart play to turn up the pressure.
When I see someone “spread the damage” or attack “whoever has the highest life” I know that aggro player will lose the game
@@thetrinketmageIt's a matter of feeling out the pod's preferences and such. Myself I want a more involved game, and didn't like to see players knocked out long before someone wins. I'm one of those that plays to even out life totals and not pursue knockouts, which is ok IF I then don't complain that I lose every game. My enjoyment comes from people getting excited that their decks do their thing.
I can set that aside though if it feels the table wants to focus a player out one by one, leaving one player to just twiddle their thumbs for half an hour. I don't like it, and it usually puts me in the situation of being kingmaker, but if it's what the pod wants, I can find a different one if it bothers me too much.
a lot of people are bad players and think it helps the game to prolong it unnecessarily by keeping weak players alive.
yeah its nice to have your friend at the table, but every turn you leave him in the more likely he is to cyclonic rift or board wipe to try to reset the game.
thats how you wind up with 4 hour commander games that people walk away from because they are bored.
@@thetrinketmage I'm one of those players.
Because I know, for a fact, my deck could go from 5-10 dmg to swinging for 35+ commander dmg fairly easily. I could make sure this game only takes 3 rotations around the table, and have before.
But knocking out one of my friends, then having him sit there for half an hour doing nothing? That has made people quit our pod. Not my fault he brought Eldrazi when I'm playing a creature heavy deck.
I could play a slower deck, but I don't want. I'm a red player at heart. So I throw a little bit of damage around for the first 10 or so spins around the table. Then I decide to try and win.
Sometimes I lose. Sometimes I win. What matters to me is that people play the cards and no one quits.
I don't like killing off a player early because I get bored when I'm killed off early so I like to spread the damage, but I normally pack a good amount of removal and that will go at one person if it needs to be. I'll even remove mana rocks if I know it'll slow down powerful decks. If I don't have the removal, I don't rely on others for theirs and I go in for player removal.
Commander lingo has infiltrated all of Magic. Now it is officially a “Crime” to target my opponents things. A negative connotation.
The difference is paradox engine went in a zillion decks. Nadu only really goes in his own deck.
and literally every deck with blue and green that can just slap him and get insane value for no deckbuilding cost, be it with some random eqiupment or creature on the battlfield, or by turning every interacion on him bad because he triggers, making you waste a card when the nadu controller went card neutral by casting him
I'd argue that Nadu may not go in EVERY deck but it can certainly go in a great deal more than MERELY his own deck. If your deck is running even a modest amount of cards that can target your own things (even things you might be running incidentally such as Lightning Greaves/Swiftfoot Boots) you'll get a LOT of mileage out of Nadu. And even if you AREN'T doing that, he still makes a great deterrent to your creatures being targeted.
My Ivy disagree..... but yeah, not every deck
@@juliobbeltran its obviously not true he can go in any deck containing simic for “no deckbuilding cost”. Cards are allowed to be good
@@zackkelley2940 like enchantress
Are there other creatures that give other creatures a full text box worth of abilities? I only really ever saw “creatures you control gain tap deal 1 damage” or 1 simple ability. Why all the words goodness.
"I'm pretty sure ruby storm is just the better combo deck"
Well, this aged like milk.
Yeah… at the time ruby storm was going crazy and it fell off so hard lol
I was always surprised Hullbreacher got banned. It couldn’t even be your Commander. Hullbreacher Wheeling was awesome. It’s not natural for everyone to have a handful of cards. This only exists in Magic 2020 and after.
I cracked it in a pack and threw it in my Illuna Apex of Wishes mutate deck. Am I cooked?
In the 99 the card is pretty fair and I like the idea of using it to mutate
If we're degenerates for putting it in the 99 then we're degenerate together because it's going right in my Ivy, Gleeful Spellthief
You should feel bad for playing Mutate.
"Gotta keep 'em honest"
- Me OTKing my friend with no blockers
I can understand casual players being frustrated by removal and interaction, but interaction is honestly the most fun part of the game.
I won't deny that removal can make your game miserable though, as when I first started I was playing kitchen table multiplayer against 3 players holding multiple doomblades and mine was the only non-black deck.
Removal is frustrating because most players don't know how to use it. They will usually use it on the aggro player because he dared play some stuff early, while conveniently ignoring the actual kill-on-sight commander that will probably win the game as soon as it untaps.
If you want easy wins, play control decks with very few creatures. I went on a 22 games winstreak at some point because players would equalize life instead of focusing me and, while I was clearly the issue, I didn't have much on board to interact with, so they threw removal at each other
I have been in a few scenarios where my opponent had played with decks that enable him to kill my creatures each term with only one attack.
I didn't get to do a damn thing. All I did was watch him destroy my stuff. not really fun.
then there was that time he played magus of the Moon. I'm sure you see my point.
at my LGS someone bought nadu to the weekly casual commander tournament. turn 4 they had 23 lands in play.
Hes the face of "A simic value engine with no wincon"
This is a great take. My buddy complained about hitting his exile Rocco when I'm playing a graveyard deck and I'm like, you're shutting off my game plan of course I'm going to target you.
Nadu is the quintessential example of kill on sight. And if the player gets salty that your game plan revolves around constantly interacting with their commander, just keep mining that delicious salt.
It should have been "Your creatures have ward - draw a card, then put a land from your hand into play."
Even though people should, you can't always rely on either your opponents to be running enough removal or for the nadu player to run a wincon in the deck instead of wasting time. Imagine trying to start a pod at an LGS and the 4th player sits down with this deck. Are you gonna ask them a bunch of question about how the deck is built and does it actually have a win condition with the commander combo? See that just sounds like rule zero'ing at the start of the game already. It'd be alot easier just to outright ban the card in edh (at the very least casual) and if someone really wants to play it then as i said it can be rule zero'd and allowed
Angry Trinket Mage icon is the best thumbnail art ever.
I love the idea that we as a community can improve and “control” the explosiveness of decks/cards like Nadu. “Sure you can sit down and play at our casual table with your Nadu deck, we all play plenty of interaction though so I hope you came prepared!”
The new Nadu problem is that it was _so entirely_ broken that it makes many extremely pushed cards look downright benign in comparison, and warps the entire conversation about running (or even banning) high power cards.
I think Nadu could be interesting in a fight deck. Throwing your creatures at your opponents’ seems like a fun way to build around him without making the deck too busted.
That Ruby Storm comparison didnt age well lmao
If cards like this are allowed at the table, then land destruction should be as well.
What happened at the MH3 Modern pro tour? Did any Nadu or Ruby storm make the Top 8?
Ruby storm got crushed Nadu won!
@@thetrinketmage when is the next scheduled Ban announcement? I saw the top 8 had 5-6 Nadu and the top 4 was all Nadu. What a disaster.
@@Zarbon000 like August and yesterday they announced no emergency ban! I talked about it a bit on my Twitter
Atleast for edh this guy NEEDS equipment in order to go crazy. Most games I've seen people have the removal for shuko or grieves, the nadu player falls off super hard. But yeah I'm not saying it isn't a problem but I think it should be banned in casual but not in cedh, we need commanders to contest the might of bowmaster.
Also we printed a better guilded drake because it can sacrifice stacks pieces by refusing to pay the energy.
There’s several old enchantments and spells that just change the color of target creature/permanent, so they can still get out of hand even if you exile their equipment.
Oh sacrificing the stax pieces is a cool way to use the new drake
This is why I will never dismantle my Stax deck, I D G A F how much they cry when they can't go bonkers with their broken commanders. Between watching someone playing a 30min turn and nobody being able to do anything, Imma choose the latter.
I think you can be on-track if things keep up and the community doesn't adjust. I've even been hearing about parts of the cEDH community taking issue with the guy, though this is more anecdotal than not.
Which is funny because I really just see Nadu as a UG Ad Nauseam with extra steps as it requires more game pieces to actually get going than straight-up Ad Naus, while being in a color that may not be able to immediately translate that into a win without access to Breach-Freeze and Thoracle-Consultation.
My take is that it stems from unfamiliarity, which isn't a first for both the casual and cEDH communities as a whole, and only time will be able to tell us if people are able to adjust.
Changing in interaction package profiles for cEDH, and maybe player behaviour to actually both run more interaction and be willing to use them could be exactly what we need for us to grow as a community.
Honestly didn't expect to see Nadu start breaching the casual space though, and thanks for making this video about it.
Love your work, Trinket Mage!
I think for cEDH Nadu is pretty fine! I like having more decks that don’t have ad naus and breach
great point on kill on sights commanders/spot removals, some people take like a personal attack if you target his things (bro got a urza with winter orb etc and don't want to be targeted)
So many whiners gathered here. Nadu is good, no need to ban it. Gladly will play against it. Get some counter magic or just win before. Easy =)
There are a lot of good value engines. Atraxa, Grand Unifier and Etali, Primal Conqueror are also great. The Nadu is not a problem, problem is inside heads.
I agree! I don’t think it should be banned, just that it will be banned
Beautiful analysis, I've subscribed
This card just WotC's current representation of failing card design. Its another example of a lack of adults in the room to check lil johnny's work. It smacks of Oko, Uro, and Hogaak vibes. I can see the re-quote on the mothership 2 months from now, "We never thought players would target their own stuff!" (Ala Oko).
Like, why does this thing trigger for anything either player casts, instead of just an opponent? Why is it allowed to trigger twice per creature per turn, and not just twice per turn? Why does it put lands in untapped? Why is a 3/4 flyer for 3?
I find it fully disheartening to see this time, after time, after time.
Because they need players to Have to buy the new packs. And us fools can’t help ourselves.
"The bird must die, Lois."
-Peter Griffin
Bird should have just said “whenever a creature you control becomes the target of a spell or ability, (growth spiral effect thing). This ability triggers only twice (or could have been once) per turn” so it may be 2 cards a turn max, not minimum
Of even just keep the effect to himself, it's already good enough for a 3/4 flyer costing 3
While I agree that players shouldn't feel bad about repeatedly removing must answer commanders, or attacking decks with late game inevitability in the early game, I don't think that really helps too much against Nadu. Nadu comes down on turn two or turn three, so this is hardly late game inevitability, and repeatedly removing. Removing Nadu doesn't even really help, since assuming the Nadu player gets at least one trigger before you get your removal spell on the stack, they're still drawing two cards. Each time they cast their Commander easily letting them cast it again. Next turn, very similar to the problem with golos.
i get the logic of what to do when someone brings a "problematic" commander but a call to basically bully someone out of the game for daring to play that deck is never going to feel ok i fear. i'm not saying it's wrong to do it, but everyone involved will also have to reckon that, because they picked the wrong commander, they just do not get to play.
It’s the age old problem of you want everyone to do the thing but some people’s thing is 100X stronger so they just win when it happens
Oh no, they made a card that gives all creatures shroud
They don’t have to ban Nadu. Just agree with your friends in this casual format, that you won’t play it.
Problem is a lot of players play with random opponents at their local store where it’s harder to curate the playgroup
@@thetrinketmage Just gang up 🤣
I think the point about how often you can trigger the ability is a great one. It’s like Esper Sent, Rhystic Study and Tithe in that the power is only half the problem. The other half is how obnoxious it is to have those abilities go off every single turn or play
This is horrible card design
The yellow on the thumbnail of this video is gorgeous
At this rate the CAG should just unban Shahrazad at this rate
Sudden Death in any deck with some black cards!!
Nadu was "designed for Commander", like 90% of cards are nowadays. And surprise, it's toxic and overpowered.
WotC needs to stop designing "for Commander" full stop. If it can't go into a constructed format without warping it, don't (intentionally) print it.
Remember when cards had flavor text? Cards doing one thing, which you paid mana for? Why is Magic now designed on infinite value on every piece of cardboard? I'm sick of it.
I think I somewhat disagree with the take that Nadu slots into decks as easily as something like Paradox Engine or Hullbreacher.
Compared those those types of cards, I think Nadu is a lot more niche. The most obvious limiting factors are the colors. Paradox Engine could literally just go into any deck no matter the colors, Hullbreacher only into blue decks but it was still very splashable.
2nd is that the barrier of entry for these other 2 is much lower. The only real requirement for Paradox Engine to work is that you have things that care about being untapped (which almost all decks have in the form of dorks or rocks) and that you cast spells which...yeah every deck does that. Hullbreacher is perhaps also somewhat niche, not every deck plays wheels, but a lot of decks can also just play it as a very oppressive, feel-bad hate piece outside of those decks. of course slotting it into a casual wheel deck only made it worse.
Nadu on the other hand requires you to actively want to target your own things, which I'd argue not every deck really actively does. The main ones in these colors I can think of are maybe simic/bant flicker decks and things like Ivy that actively cast a lot of targeting spells. Flicker is a fairly popular archetype, but I think Nadu's colors does still limit the amount of decks it actually ends up showing up in. So compared to the other 2 you mentioned, I'd argue Nadu slots into a lot less decks as part of the 99. The main way for Nadu to become oppressive is when he's actively being built around as a commander, and I think this is perhaps something that pods can kind of manage on their own, by agreeing that Nadu should only be played in a high power context, much like it's fairly commonly agreed upon that you probably shouldn't bring something like Urza, High Lord Artificer to a lower power pod.
Imo, it remains to be seen if Nadu really needs to be banned. I do think it is a very poorly designed card, busted in so many ways that could've easily been prevented, but I think it could very well end up as one of those cards that the format ends up kinda self-moderating.
Dies to Doomblade.
But seriously though, just errata it to be land in tapped or draw the card you reveal, and once a turn.
If the lands entered tapped Nadu would be strong but way more fair!
Can't errata it easily though since it is part of its rules text rather than reminders text like companion. And if you do errata it for the sake of errating it then you set a dangerous precedent that Wizards can change the text of the card you bought.
didn't talk about another crucial part, if you flicker nadu he resets the 2 triggers each turn.
I’ve never agreed with a video of yours more. Another huge problem with Nadu is that when he comes down, if he’s not answered as he comes down (through counter spells as well), then it’s game over, and he can consistently do it turns 3-6. I definitely want him banned, he is a horribly designed card that is too easy to make too strong for casual.
Nadu will land next to myrrim, voja, yuriko, and every other super high powered “casual” commander. Ruining people’s play experience one value pile at a time. It bothers me how close the casual and competitive builds of this will be 85% the same, just like the commanders I listed earlier, but it’s unlikely to catch a ban.
Except only Yuriko and Nadu could be viable cEDH.
@@angelofsolitude7951 which honestly I think highlights the real problem: it’s not about cedh viability, it’s about cedh ease? If that makes sense? It’s the fact that the commander asks virtually nothing of you and in return you get competitive levels of advantage. (Not necessarily actual competitive advantage, but it would look like that to the uninformed) Voja is effectively a craterhoof every turn that stacks. That’s a 1-2 turn clock, even if it’s coming down on turn 3-4, which isn’t hard to do. And the deck building requirement to get you that speed is trivially easy, it’s what you were going to do anyways. Myrrim is a casual fun dragon, yes, until you realize they have to 1) land their commander 2) play any dragon that has ETB do something stupid. Terror of the peaks, sure. Now the game is over for what? Like 11 mana? That number sounds awfully familiar. And the commander PROTECTS ITSELF.
Cedh is for easy wincons with hard-fought stacks.
These legends are so good at being built high power that it’s impossible to build them low or mid. Easy wincon, no stack fight to get anything done.
It’s been legal for 2 days..
Probably should wait
2-3…. More days..
Have played against 1 Nadu deck - it took agreement between 2 Minsc and Boo decks and an Ur-Dragon to kill it before it got out of hand, and we only just got it in time. Anything that is doing that so early that fast decks are struggling to have any chance to counter tells you it needs a ban hammer.
Was wondering for a while why my aphetto alchemist was going up in price. Of course it's this damn bird every one is talking about.
I put Hinata into an EDH deck and built some fun synergy with targeting and realized quickly how utterly broken it was and took apart that deck.
Nadu will hopefully be similar.
Honestly Krak/Sakashima have the same issue as nadu, where they have long turns doing things to see "if" they win that turn. Krak/Sakashima just has never really been popular outside of cEDH and honestly I think that's what determines if Nadu will get banned or not. If he's played alot in casual, He'll get banned. If he's only played in cEDH, then I don't see him getting banned. At this point, I think cEDH and casual should just have separate banlists.
I'm just really hoping he avoids the ban hammar since I hate seeing cards banned in cEDH simply because "it's too good in casual". Kills creativity for the format and shouldn't be how a banlist is run.
I don't think it will get banned, Just because it still does have counter play and really it is stuck in the like simic landfall archetype, Which isn't the strongest when it comes to cedh.
Golos got banned because he had no counter play what's so ever was five colour and himself colourless. He had the same problem to the bird but even worse, By just casting the commander would result in having like 17+ mana between turns 2 or 5 and that would happen every game with out fail. this is all before talking about his killer last ability.
So ya comparing That, our most notable commander ban to Nadu I don't really think he will be banned. He really isn't a problem unless we're talking about a mid power table. That's we're he'll be the biggest problem.
You're not really right about the archetypes. Nadu is amazing for any UG, for G, cut out all larger ramp cause Nadu+some self-targeting is all you need, and same for U with draw.
Still, idk if he completely survives cEDH focusing. Even if one other player is blanking, can Nadu 1v2 two other decks?
Actually, now that I think about it, probably yes. As mentioned, Nadu + 1 source of self-target is 12+ cards a cycle (3+ per turn), of which the lands come into play untapped. That's untapped ramp for 3+ and 5+ potential pieces of interaction - which is literally more than the standard amount 3 other players can do.
So, play, say, a dozen pieces of self-target and that's guaranteed to happen every game around turn 3. You don't need more than a very few pieces of hard payoff as if you're drawing 12 per cycle, you'll very consistently find what you need.
Basically, as long as Nadu is on the table, no one can afford not to continue holding up interaction, since once Nadu is on the field backed up by interaction, it's GG. Yep, that's Golos basically, minus the 5-color identity.
@@bluerendar2194 Okay, Right so I looked at some of the Cedh deck lists, For what you are describing there only 4 cards in the whole deck that allows for this interaction being Aphetto Alchemist, seeker of Skybreak both of which suffer from summoning sickness, Unctus, Grand Metatect which you must pay life for and Sylvan safekeeper that you have to sac land to activate.
So it is not like this deck has 20 cards that can do what you are describing and a simple path to exile or counter spell can deal with those, That was not the same for Golos as you couldn't counter the things you get from his abilities and him simply entering the battlefield netted you huge consistent value.
For this deck to win anyway in a reasonable amount of time like turn 0 to like turn 5 you wouldn't have a board state to win outright with Thassa's oracle so this also still needs the normal expected-to-see infinite combo like in every other cedh deck with this case being displacer kitten and like 5 different cards.
Your only point is that It might if they draw well and no one has counters it can ramp and get to play 1 of the 4 cards that get them 12+ cards by the time they get to their turn, By the way only 2 of those cards let you do that turn 1 or 0 and that's with paying 24 life or sac 12 lands.
Golo's got value instantly as he entered and the game was over if he used his ability once.
They are not the same.
So comparing the Two I think Nadu will be strong but nothing crazy strong In a high power Cedh game.
@@zachdaly6890 There's also 8 creature tutors and 3 recurrers in the deck, so....
And, Nadu does gets value as soon as resolution. Targeting Nadu draws cards, so both targeting interaction and protection draws cards - on the latter, turning any protection spell into a protection+cycling spell, and also cycling to another protection/interaction or closer to a combo card - basically allowing the Nadu player to 1-for-1 match each piece of interaction from all three players.
@@bluerendar2194 Please think for a moment before replying, About how much mana would be required for the thing you are proposing, Also, Remember that in the game of mtg, You start with 7 cards and you draw if you are not on turn 0 and some of those cards have mana symbols that have color requirements to pay before being able to cast them.Then think about how likely you are to draw things or not to see how consistent or not consistent your ideas may be.
Also, think about the fact that in cedh games will usually end by turn 3 or at the latest turn 6 but it is also a common
occurrence for people to win by turn 2 or 1 and even turn 0, I myself won twice in a row on turn 0 with my mono black Krik deck I was very happy and was bullied for the rest of the night. Now if you follow everything I just said too in this reply, I am hoping You will realize the rather staggering amount of mistakes you made in your reply, That has also really put into question for me whether or not you have ever played cedh and if you don't mind may I ask what you run for cedh?
Banning cards that prolong games is a solid idea, so thank you for suggesting it to your much larger audience than mine!
the 4 games ive had against a nadu deck have been ok nothing super crazy but that could be just bad draws on the nadu side or all of us focusing it everytime it came out