Went to NMU 71-75 and born a Yooper. In Asheville NC now. The Lake can get mean. I actually turned down a job offer to work on the Edmund Fitzgerald about a month before it sank. Instead I moved to Leadville CO the 2 mile high city. If I had accepted the job offer I would be at the bottom of the lake with the rest of the crew.
That was a fascinating talk. Living in the West it’s been difficult to really understand the weather that happened on the day that the Fitzgerald sank because our weather is so different than it is around the Great Lakes area. The speaker made the various aspects that contributed to the terrible winds and weather which in turn helped to sink the ship easy to understand. I’ll listen to Gordon Lightfoot’s ballad about the sinking of the Fitzgerald with new understanding and appreciation for the 29 brave sailors that went down with their ship.
Why is the full testimony of the Arthur M. Anderson captain being left out? I saw the video where facts are being left out of this. The captain stated, that when during the storm, there were higher winds along with higher gusts that were reported to receive also his ship was hit by two huge waves from the direction of rear to front. He also stated these wave formations were headed right at the Edmund Fitzgerald. He also stated shortly there after is when contact was lost on radar of the Edmund Fitzgerald. This single one report should have settled along with all the other information what really happened. This fact with taking on water& listing, the upgraded storm evidence, location of the final resting place of the actual cargo/ (came out before the ship hit bottom and spread out) and the final resting place and condition of both parts of the ship suggest a break up at or near the surface. These combined facts Points to weather, along with the two waves mentioned, followed by loss of contact on radar I believe to a reasonable conclusion to the break up of this ship due to conditions listed. I believe it is easier to address blame on the crew rather than have to pay out on what insurance would have to cover. This practice is standard practice in case of airline tragedies, crew first then evidence leads to actual cause. I also believe the reporting authorities cannot prove what really happened/ insurance cannot pay without evidence, so the crew held responsible excuse, ensures no one will have to pay for this tragedy. It is sad to note that a tragedy must take place before better ways come to their proper place. If only a 48 hour better prepared forecast using the same history they had then, what we use today definitely would have changed the route taken and avoided this tragedy. God rest their souls and my prayers to all affected.
I noticed that as well - I heard the conversation on a different youtube vid where Anderson specifically speaks about two huge waves (commonly referred to as the three sisters in lake speak) going from stern to bow heading easterly in the general direction of the Fitzgerald - even though Anderson said they would likely pass by, the Fitzgerald was blind, it was dark, and they were hit by a squall, My theory is The Fitzgerald was hit by these waves, stern to bow, in succession , causing the bow to nosedive, Being the Fitz was longer then the water was deep, even a 60 foot wave would be +60 at the crest/-60 at the trough with her prop propelling her toward the bottom, getting hit by the second, which would be larger then the first, would continue the downward (or nosedive) movement of the bow, causing the bow to hit the clay at the bottom of the lake, causing the center of the ship to accordian (there is about 200 ft missing of the ships center), and the propellers torque to twist the stern of the ship, severing an already weakened hull in two. the Bow is resting in fairly deep bed of silt, and a gauge of 200M is visible according to the expeditions. This would have occurred in seconds, not minutes, not slow - it is more then likely the crew outside of the wheel house were dead before they registered what was happening.
at 8:00 - yes - She was headed to Detroit to offload, it was the last run of the season, and she would have then went to drydock in Cleveland. The song is accurate.
NOAA weather service had 26 foot waves predicted last year for lake Ontario. Big difference these days is that the ships clear the lakes and anchor in safe harbors when the big storms are predicted. Due to the nature of the tragedy and lives lost, a more somber presentation tone may have been more appropriate.
I believe in Bernie Coopers theory,first of all Captain Ernest McSorley reported at 3:10 that afternoon that he had 2 vent covers missing,a starboard list,and a fence rail down.It was at that same time he passed Caribou Island do the math
I dunno - the Captain of the Arthur M. Anderson said that McSorley (captain of the Fitz) reported a list hours before sinking. Captain Cooper didn't think a leaking, or blown hatch cover, was something that the pumps couldn't handle - in terms of the amount of water that the vessel would have been taking on (from hatch covers). He swears the only two things that would cause the list were (1) a stress fracture in the hull, or, (2) bottoming out on Caribou Island’s Six-Fathom Shoal. Cooper's radar fix on the Fitz appeared, in his mind, to show the Fitz way too close to the shoal - which is only 26-feet deep at points. So, of course it was the weather, but I tend to think that one of Cooper's theories contributed.
I accept the nose dive theory. The ship was heading southeast to get to Whitefish Bay and the wind changed from out of the northeast to from the northwest at 100 miles per hour . Lake stacking of water from the northwest would load volume up in the southeast corner of the lake. As gravity would try to level the lake back out and more water coming from the northwest ,the swells would be tall and far apart and would hit the ship at the back and cover the front lifting the back of the ship and ever further nosing the front down till the load shifted forward in which pellets was seen at the nose of the wreck in dives .The ship was longer than the the lake was deep and snapped in half at the point that had already been stressed by rough seas .There were no scrape marks on the haul as seen in dives to the wreck to indicate hitting a shoal.
James Trump, I agree with you... The one theory I heard was a "Rouge Wave." Or a super wave. The winds on his power point show it changed direction, coming from out of the north and heading east. This rouge wave would have hit the Edmund Fitzgerald from the stern! Literally pushing the bow of the ship right into the lake bed, probably hitting bedrock. With all the stress now being applied to the hull, the Fitzgerald's hull couldn't handle it. So she snapped in half like a dry twig. It would also explain why the two halves of the ship were so close together! And as you pointed out, no scrape marks on the hull as seen in dives of the wreck to indicate running aground!
James I read that 200 feet of the middle of the ship are part of the scattered debris. The Fitz may have stuck the shoal amidship and there would be no evidence on the rear of the hull bottom. Awww, heck. If the experts disagree, who am I to say.
Guy Merritt Absolutely! Capt Cooper was within sight of the lights of the Fitz for most of the day, and only lost them for a bit when the snow started. He was also in constant contact with Capt. McSorley, who reported to Cooper nearly *4 ½ HOURS* before the sinking that he was "listing" and that his pumps were on, at full bore, and were at best _keeping up with_ their intake of water, but were not able to lower the level. It should be pointed out - as it has been by many Sailors here in Michigan - that when a Captain in a storm says he's "listing", "missing a couple vents", that his "fence-rail is down", his "radar masts have been disabled", and that his "pumps are just barely keeping up", what he is _REALLY_ saying (please pardon my french) is, *_Holy shit Cooper. I'm in a massive amount of trouble out here, and with my pumps not keeping up with what's coming in my holds, if just one uncharacteristically big wave breaks deck, we're all fucked for good"_*. However, a Captain taking on water, navigating on stormy, obviously frightening seas, with (by that point) probably his First and Second Mates, his Wheelman, and a Watchman or two in the bridge with him or otherwise within earshot (plus the fact that there are other radio speakers in or near crew areas on _most_ ships- not sure about the Fitz), *cannot* say such a thing, and cannot appear to be panicking, even if inside, he is. If he does, his crew -- whom he desperately needs to operate as a machine at such a time -- will start to break down psychologically, stop thinking clearly, even stop doing their jobs- maybe even start praying and freaking one another out. Cooper later said that he felt in his heart that at that moment, McSorley was trying to "say without saying" that there was *big* trouble, and one would think that as a Captain with decades on the water, and as someone who knew McSorley personally, was in the same conditions, and could hear McSorley's tone, Cooper would know. Add to all this that at that time (3pm), Cooper's radar showed McSorley and his Fitz within just ONE mile of Caribou (far, *far* too close), and the fact that it was later discovered that McSorley (who has no radar at that point) was operating with an inaccurate chart which showed a dangerous shoal - that he'd have most certainly steered to avoid - was charted a full mile away from where is actually existed. The idea that the crew just simply "didn't tighten the hatches properly" is silly at best. These men were experienced Great Lakes Sailors. They'd seen 15 foot seas break their decks dozens and dozens of times, and clamp tightening would be taken extremely seriously after loading. But even if it were not, when he started experiencing the first of the warnings and ugly weather, the first thing McSorley would have done is order his crew to check the hatches. There would be no radio record of this, and nobody would know unless they noted it in the ships log and that log was recovered. But regardless, that ship did not sail through that storm with loose hatches; that's ludicrous. We know that around 3 p.m., the Fitz was far too close to areas that _could have_ bottomed her out, and we know that by 3:10, she was taking on more water than her pumps could handle removing. As one of the relatively few people who has been fortunate enough to be able to Scuba dive to the wreck and hover 18" above the deck of the Edmund Fitzgerald (though only for a precious 6 minutes), I know many, many people who have investigated this wreck to no end. The Fitz is something that is constantly being talked about in maritime circles here in Michigan, and *nobody* that I know believes that the weather was *primarily* responsible for her fate. Of course it contributed, but as an analogy, if a person has a tire blow out in their car, crashes, gets ejected, and lands unconscious in a roadside ditch that's filled with water because it was raining, was is really the _weather_ that was "responsible" for the wreck that killed them, or the tire blowout? Most reasonable people would say they both contributed, but obviously if the tire never blew out, the weather wouldn't matter a lick. Same thing here.
James Trump I am not a professional investigator of shipwrecks, but I've been fortunate enough to dive on nearly 100 of the Great Lakes' wrecks (including the Fitzgerald) and I can promise you that the way she sits on the bottom; the way she is tangled; the absolutely *massive* amount of twisted metal, debris, mud, iron, and utter chaos that sits in between her two halves, there is at least 20% or more of her hull that could be absolutely tattooed by scrapes, gouges, or cracks that *nobody* could ever identify or even see. Although not the case with the Fitz, I _have_ run my [gloved] fingers through gouges on other ships that ran aground before sinking, and you'd be (or at least, _I've_ been) very surprised how small they can be. You can be in a spot where looking to your left and your right, there is undamaged hull as far as your eyes can see underwater, yet right in front of you - in a spot that you can nearly cover completely by holding your arms straight out to your sides _"wingspan"_ style - is a hole not much bigger than _you_ are that was responsible for putting the skyscraper-sized behemoth in front of you on the lakebed. It somewhat boggles the mind. Given the size and spread of Superior's seas during storms like the ones that night, when we dive a wreck that we know _did_ bottom out and rip open her tank(s), we very, very often (I'd estimate over 75% of the time) see the evidence almost exactly at midship. With her stern in the trough of the wave that just passed, and her bow in the trough of the one she's about to hit, mid-ship - right where no real evidence can be discerned on the Fitz - is where she typically hits a shoal, reef, or the lake/sea bed. That said, I believe she bottomed out on the rocky shoal that we know for sure she was very close to, and which we also know for sure was inaccurately located on McSorley's charts, and began taking on water around 3 p.m., but I _don't_ believe she sank slowly over the hours due to this. McSorley was experienced and knew that there were ships very close to him; he would have called a mayday if he had a moment where he knew she was going down. I believe she sank catastrophically and was completely under in less than 20 seconds when either her bow dove under a wave which washed over the already water-filled/weighted deck and it's holds and never came back up, or her bow and stern both sat atop the crests of large waves causing her fully loaded mid-deck (now carrying the extra weight of tons and tons of water) to snap in half- just like the Daniel J Morrell (a totally bizarre wreck whose wheelman coincidentally lived in a house I can see from my bedroom window) and not much different than a person at a bon-fire breaking a tree limb for kindling. Either way, I personally don't believe (nor does any freighter Captain I've ever spoken to) that she'd have sank - even in the awful storm - if she'd not already taken on all the water from bottoming out hours earlier.
He says there's no evidence of grounding because of no visible damage. Wouldn't it be logical that the grounding & damage occurred where the ship broke in two? Therefore the damage would be in the mess of the destroyed middle of the ship. Just thinking out loud...
And it took 4 hours to suddenly sink with no watertight bulkheads! Doesn’t add up. The logbooks and further studies of the shoals show they were miles from where the ships sailed and far deeper than previously recorded
No. The US Navy located the ship using magnetic detection FOUR days after it sank. Lightfoot was inspired to write the song after reading a story in Newsweek two weeks after the ship sank and 10 days after the Navy found her.
The song is entertainment, and was written like a folk song should be. It commemorates the tragedy in a spooky respectful way. Now I'm no expert on these things but to me it appears that the wind and the waves battered that ship and actually twisted it half on the surface. It was being rocked back an forth in a twisting motion.
She was rumored to have a rotten keel and I heard 2 men that worked at the steel plant here in MI where she was built state that defective welds were passed off. The only thing that is certain is that it broke in two on the surface and it was sudden and catastrophic. Either she bottomed out on a shoal or was twisted in half when stress fractures lined up from a defective hull.
After the waves putting a great strain on the ship, it started to break apart at surface? Bow took a nosedive and the stern flipped over and landed about 160 to 170 away from the stern.
Somewhere on the internet is the rogue wave researchers who have figured out how to find a rogue wave height that occurs in relationship to the wave forecast.
We just saw this lecture in Pewaukee, WI! It was fascinating and played to a full crowd. But please, and I know it is nitpicking and petty, please correct the spelling on the slide mentioning the type of big wave that may have contributed to the Fitzgerald's demise. It would have been a ROGUE wave. The OCD in me would thank you.
The boat scraped bottom after its radar went out. (In the schoals.) It doesn't take long for a ship be wounded with all that weight. Someone in the comments were correct, about the captain Cooper of the Arther Anderson giving the details of whet he believed happened. I would bet my life that Caption Cooper is correct. That's all there is to say.
I think the guy did a fine job breaking the weather down compared to the events in the song, humor is his way of presenting and it was aimed at the song not the crew of the ship, unwind your uptight rear ends
The song is a song but it’s respectful. Is he a musician? Was your family member on this ship? You don’t get to decide what’s offensive to others. Unwind your know it all butt.
5 ปีที่แล้ว
Close the Great Lakes to freighter traffic on November 1st.
Ever notice they never happen when it's warm, only cold, it's the cheap steel loaded with carbon, it gets brittle and fails, just like every diamond has a fleck of carbon steel is very imperfect due to carbon. That would be my guess as to why these tin pans sink or break in two, all 3 main lakes have claimed a modern victim, Michigan got the Bradley in 2 pieces, then Daniel Morrell Lake Huron in two, finally the Fitz in Superior, Lightfoot was worried the families would think he was profiteering in the tragedy like he was, if he really cared screw the lyrics,those families lost their bread winner in many cases the proceeds should go to the families,that'd show me he cares, as they say put your money you know the rest. US stopped making shipsd, no more sinking ships, huh,
Why do I always disagree with Americans? The vessel was heading 141, before the wind, the vessel listed to stb, and was making water to some degree. Two ventilator cowls were missing. The breakers entered the deck just fwd of the aft superstructure, and raced the entire length of the deck, most likely forcing water into the holds, the low coamings and flimsy covers would not be able to withstand the constant attack. When the water mass hit the fwd superstructure it would come to a full stop, overwhelming hatchcovers Nos. 1 and 2, which are found stove in on the wreck. Massive water ingress in # 1 and # 2 hatches would cause the vessel to nosedive instantly, driving it under in minutes. There can be no doubt that the hull's integrity was breached.
Well, if you had a long lasting storm, enough water could enter to nosedive a lakes ship, which is not sectioned like a deepwater ship, but a shortlived storm like this, and no mayday, I suspect something gave way. 30 feet waves is quite common on the open oceans. (Here West Coast Norway we now and then have waves up to 115 feet) See the story here on TH-cam about the UK bulker "DERBYSHIRE"
Nils Arild Hovland Not exactly sure where you got your info from, but are you are aware that Captain Mcsorley radio'd 4 ½ hours (3 p.m.) before the sinking that he was already taking on more water than his pumps could handle removing? Don't you think he would have had the crew check the hatch covers (even just quickly) when he discovered he was taking on water and still had daylight? Also, are you aware that experiments have been done in the decades following the sinking that have shown that the hatch covers (which were 7 ½ tons each) would have held their seal *far* too well to cause the inflow of more water than the pumps could overcome *even if NO clamps were on them*? Also, the Fitzgerald _was_ partitioned like ocean-going vessels including cargo-holds separated by bulkheads and several ballast tanks on each side. The Great Lakes are inland seas, with water conditions and storms that mirror the open oceans including wave sizes (including rogue waves), and ships are built accordingly. The main difference between salties and lakers is that salties can sit lower and have an additional beam, while the lakers can be larger. I'm not saying your _wrong_ per se, because neither you nor I can ever know for sure, but the main problem with your theory is that there were many similar ships in the same area, including one (the Anderson) which was within sight of the Fitzgeralds lights all day and was pounded relentlessly all day by the same seas, so why didn't any of _those_ ships -- with their similar characteristics, cargo holds, and hatch covers (mostly all built at the same shipyards with the same materials) -- sink in that storm, or start taking on more water than their pumps could handle at 3 p.m.?? I believe I know why: because they didn't bottom out earlier in the day like the Fitzgerald did.
Dunno how much time you have spent in bulkers, but bilge pumps are not going to do you much good when you have water ingress into a bulk cargo. I have a suspicion that you have not been cleaning out bilges after such cargoes. Freeboard will be lost by the time there is water in the bilges, and then they will clog! I learned this on a small (5000 dwt) bulker in the North Sea. The other ships did not suffer water ingress, and loss of freeboard. If she touched bottom in such aa weather, her demiste would have been quick!
I don't get the hate on this guy. You have to be at least somewhat entertaining..otherwise this can get really boring, really fast. He clearly realized that, which explains the jokes.
It’s not called Lake effect weather for no reason. You keep comparing our lakes to the ocean, we are not the ocean, we are lakes and there’s a difference.Also you can walk out on our lakes on boulder type rocks. They are in those lakes too.
This guy is a complete jerk. There are still relatives alive from this accident, and he is cracking jokes the entire presentation, a little at first because of nervousness is normal. He acts like a comedian trying to draw laughs every sentence and you can tell the audience is uncomfortable with it. He should stick to his weather charts in a lonely quiet room and leave this wreck alone until he learns some respect for the men who perished.
I agree. How does a College Professor screw up the pronunciation of the city Tulsa? What's more, he identifies a front as a stationary when it's an occluded front because of the color and the bumps and the barbs are on the same side of the line.
I also thought he was appalling. What did he find so humorous in 29 men meeting a horrible ending. He kept trying to make the audience laugh at his "humor". He was chuckling through the entire speech. Mister, you suck! You weren't funny, you're an IDIOT. He even joked that in 1975 people thought maybe ETs took them away and he laughs (at his own jokes). Karma will kick you in the ass.
Went to NMU 71-75 and born a Yooper. In Asheville NC now. The Lake can get mean. I actually turned down a job offer to work on the Edmund Fitzgerald about a month before it sank. Instead I moved to Leadville CO the 2 mile high city. If I had accepted the job offer I would be at the bottom of the lake with the rest of the crew.
That was a fascinating talk. Living in the West it’s been difficult to really understand the weather that happened on the day that the Fitzgerald sank because our weather is so different than it is around the Great Lakes area. The speaker made the various aspects that contributed to the terrible winds and weather which in turn helped to sink the ship easy to understand. I’ll listen to Gordon Lightfoot’s ballad about the sinking of the Fitzgerald with new understanding and appreciation for the 29 brave sailors that went down with their ship.
Why is the full testimony of the Arthur M. Anderson captain being left out? I saw the video where facts are being left out of this. The captain stated, that when during the storm, there were higher winds along with higher gusts that were reported to receive also his ship was hit by two huge waves from the direction of rear to front. He also stated these wave formations were headed right at the Edmund Fitzgerald. He also stated shortly there after is when contact was lost on radar of the Edmund Fitzgerald. This single one report should have settled along with all the other information what really happened. This fact with taking on water& listing, the upgraded storm evidence, location of the final resting place of the actual cargo/ (came out before the ship hit bottom and spread out) and the final resting place and condition of both parts of the ship suggest a break up at or near the surface. These combined facts Points to weather, along with the two waves mentioned, followed by loss of contact on radar I believe to a reasonable conclusion to the break up of this ship due to conditions listed. I believe it is easier to address blame on the crew rather than have to pay out on what insurance would have to cover. This practice is standard practice in case of airline tragedies, crew first then evidence leads to actual cause. I also believe the reporting authorities cannot prove what really happened/ insurance cannot pay without evidence, so the crew held responsible excuse, ensures no one will have to pay for this tragedy. It is sad to note that a tragedy must take place before better ways come to their proper place. If only a 48 hour better prepared forecast using the same history they had then, what we use today definitely would have changed the route taken and avoided this tragedy. God rest their souls and my prayers to all affected.
I'll tell you why he is helping the government's theory blaming the crew.
I noticed that as well - I heard the conversation on a different youtube vid where Anderson specifically speaks about two huge waves (commonly referred to as the three sisters in lake speak) going from stern to bow heading easterly in the general direction of the Fitzgerald - even though Anderson said they would likely pass by, the Fitzgerald was blind, it was dark, and they were hit by a squall, My theory is The Fitzgerald was hit by these waves, stern to bow, in succession , causing the bow to nosedive, Being the Fitz was longer then the water was deep, even a 60 foot wave would be +60 at the crest/-60 at the trough with her prop propelling her toward the bottom, getting hit by the second, which would be larger then the first, would continue the downward (or nosedive) movement of the bow, causing the bow to hit the clay at the bottom of the lake, causing the center of the ship to accordian (there is about 200 ft missing of the ships center), and the propellers torque to twist the stern of the ship, severing an already weakened hull in two. the Bow is resting in fairly deep bed of silt, and a gauge of 200M is visible according to the expeditions. This would have occurred in seconds, not minutes, not slow - it is more then likely the crew outside of the wheel house were dead before they registered what was happening.
When the ship sank I was 18 and newly in the Navy. The song effects all sailors
at 8:00 - yes - She was headed to Detroit to offload, it was the last run of the season, and she would have then went to drydock in Cleveland. The song is accurate.
Great presentation!It filled in the blanks of what we knew.thank you for great work
Deer breaks into home.
NOAA weather service had 26 foot waves predicted last year for lake Ontario. Big difference these days is that the ships clear the lakes and anchor in safe harbors when the big storms are predicted. Due to the nature of the tragedy and lives lost, a more somber presentation tone may have been more appropriate.
I believe in Bernie Coopers theory,first of all Captain Ernest McSorley reported at 3:10 that afternoon that he had 2 vent covers missing,a starboard list,and a fence rail down.It was at that same time he passed Caribou Island do the math
I dunno - the Captain of the Arthur M. Anderson said that McSorley (captain of the Fitz) reported a list hours before sinking. Captain Cooper didn't think a leaking, or blown hatch cover, was something that the pumps couldn't handle - in terms of the amount of water that the vessel would have been taking on (from hatch covers). He swears the only two things that would cause the list were (1) a stress fracture in the hull, or, (2) bottoming out on Caribou Island’s Six-Fathom Shoal. Cooper's radar fix on the Fitz appeared, in his mind, to show the Fitz way too close to the shoal - which is only 26-feet deep at points. So, of course it was the weather, but I tend to think that one of Cooper's theories contributed.
I accept the nose dive theory. The ship was heading southeast to get to Whitefish Bay and the wind changed from out of the northeast to from the northwest at 100 miles per hour . Lake stacking of water from the northwest would load volume up in the southeast corner of the lake. As gravity would try to level the lake back out and more water coming from the northwest ,the swells would be tall and far apart and would hit the ship at the back and cover the front lifting the back of the ship and ever further nosing the front down till the load shifted forward in which pellets was seen at the nose of the wreck in dives .The ship was longer than the the lake was deep and snapped in half at the point that had already been stressed by rough seas .There were no scrape marks on the haul as seen in dives to the wreck to indicate hitting a shoal.
James Trump, I agree with you... The one theory I heard was a "Rouge Wave." Or a super wave. The winds on his power point show it changed direction, coming from out of the north and heading east. This rouge wave would have hit the Edmund Fitzgerald from the stern! Literally pushing the bow of the ship right into the lake bed, probably hitting bedrock. With all the stress now being applied to the hull, the Fitzgerald's hull couldn't handle it. So she snapped in half like a dry twig. It would also explain why the two halves of the ship were so close together! And as you pointed out, no scrape marks on the hull as seen in dives of the wreck to indicate running aground!
James I read that 200 feet of the middle of the ship are part of the scattered debris. The Fitz may have stuck the shoal amidship and there would be no evidence on the rear of the hull bottom. Awww, heck. If the experts disagree, who am I to say.
Guy Merritt
Absolutely! Capt Cooper was within sight of the lights of the Fitz for most of the day, and only lost them for a bit when the snow started. He was also in constant contact with Capt. McSorley, who reported to Cooper nearly *4 ½ HOURS* before the sinking that he was "listing" and that his pumps were on, at full bore, and were at best _keeping up with_ their intake of water, but were not able to lower the level.
It should be pointed out - as it has been by many Sailors here in Michigan - that when a Captain in a storm says he's "listing", "missing a couple vents", that his "fence-rail is down", his "radar masts have been disabled", and that his "pumps are just barely keeping up", what he is _REALLY_ saying (please pardon my french) is, *_Holy shit Cooper. I'm in a massive amount of trouble out here, and with my pumps not keeping up with what's coming in my holds, if just one uncharacteristically big wave breaks deck, we're all fucked for good"_*. However, a Captain taking on water, navigating on stormy, obviously frightening seas, with (by that point) probably his First and Second Mates, his Wheelman, and a Watchman or two in the bridge with him or otherwise within earshot (plus the fact that there are other radio speakers in or near crew areas on _most_ ships- not sure about the Fitz), *cannot* say such a thing, and cannot appear to be panicking, even if inside, he is. If he does, his crew -- whom he desperately needs to operate as a machine at such a time -- will start to break down psychologically, stop thinking clearly, even stop doing their jobs- maybe even start praying and freaking one another out. Cooper later said that he felt in his heart that at that moment, McSorley was trying to "say without saying" that there was *big* trouble, and one would think that as a Captain with decades on the water, and as someone who knew McSorley personally, was in the same conditions, and could hear McSorley's tone, Cooper would know.
Add to all this that at that time (3pm), Cooper's radar showed McSorley and his Fitz within just ONE mile of Caribou (far, *far* too close), and the fact that it was later discovered that McSorley (who has no radar at that point) was operating with an inaccurate chart which showed a dangerous shoal - that he'd have most certainly steered to avoid - was charted a full mile away from where is actually existed.
The idea that the crew just simply "didn't tighten the hatches properly" is silly at best. These men were experienced Great Lakes Sailors. They'd seen 15 foot seas break their decks dozens and dozens of times, and clamp tightening would be taken extremely seriously after loading. But even if it were not, when he started experiencing the first of the warnings and ugly weather, the first thing McSorley would have done is order his crew to check the hatches. There would be no radio record of this, and nobody would know unless they noted it in the ships log and that log was recovered. But regardless, that ship did not sail through that storm with loose hatches; that's ludicrous.
We know that around 3 p.m., the Fitz was far too close to areas that _could have_ bottomed her out, and we know that by 3:10, she was taking on more water than her pumps could handle removing. As one of the relatively few people who has been fortunate enough to be able to Scuba dive to the wreck and hover 18" above the deck of the Edmund Fitzgerald (though only for a precious 6 minutes), I know many, many people who have investigated this wreck to no end. The Fitz is something that is constantly being talked about in maritime circles here in Michigan, and *nobody* that I know believes that the weather was *primarily* responsible for her fate. Of course it contributed, but as an analogy, if a person has a tire blow out in their car, crashes, gets ejected, and lands unconscious in a roadside ditch that's filled with water because it was raining, was is really the _weather_ that was "responsible" for the wreck that killed them, or the tire blowout? Most reasonable people would say they both contributed, but obviously if the tire never blew out, the weather wouldn't matter a lick. Same thing here.
James Trump
I am not a professional investigator of shipwrecks, but I've been fortunate enough to dive on nearly 100 of the Great Lakes' wrecks (including the Fitzgerald) and I can promise you that the way she sits on the bottom; the way she is tangled; the absolutely *massive* amount of twisted metal, debris, mud, iron, and utter chaos that sits in between her two halves, there is at least 20% or more of her hull that could be absolutely tattooed by scrapes, gouges, or cracks that *nobody* could ever identify or even see.
Although not the case with the Fitz, I _have_ run my [gloved] fingers through gouges on other ships that ran aground before sinking, and you'd be (or at least, _I've_ been) very surprised how small they can be. You can be in a spot where looking to your left and your right, there is undamaged hull as far as your eyes can see underwater, yet right in front of you - in a spot that you can nearly cover completely by holding your arms straight out to your sides _"wingspan"_ style - is a hole not much bigger than _you_ are that was responsible for putting the skyscraper-sized behemoth in front of you on the lakebed. It somewhat boggles the mind.
Given the size and spread of Superior's seas during storms like the ones that night, when we dive a wreck that we know _did_ bottom out and rip open her tank(s), we very, very often (I'd estimate over 75% of the time) see the evidence almost exactly at midship. With her stern in the trough of the wave that just passed, and her bow in the trough of the one she's about to hit, mid-ship - right where no real evidence can be discerned on the Fitz - is where she typically hits a shoal, reef, or the lake/sea bed.
That said, I believe she bottomed out on the rocky shoal that we know for sure she was very close to, and which we also know for sure was inaccurately located on McSorley's charts, and began taking on water around 3 p.m., but I _don't_ believe she sank slowly over the hours due to this. McSorley was experienced and knew that there were ships very close to him; he would have called a mayday if he had a moment where he knew she was going down. I believe she sank catastrophically and was completely under in less than 20 seconds when either her bow dove under a wave which washed over the already water-filled/weighted deck and it's holds and never came back up, or her bow and stern both sat atop the crests of large waves causing her fully loaded mid-deck (now carrying the extra weight of tons and tons of water) to snap in half- just like the Daniel J Morrell (a totally bizarre wreck whose wheelman coincidentally lived in a house I can see from my bedroom window) and not much different than a person at a bon-fire breaking a tree limb for kindling.
Either way, I personally don't believe (nor does any freighter Captain I've ever spoken to) that she'd have sank - even in the awful storm - if she'd not already taken on all the water from bottoming out hours earlier.
He says there's no evidence of grounding because of no visible damage. Wouldn't it be logical that the grounding & damage occurred where the ship broke in two? Therefore the damage would be in the mess of the destroyed middle of the ship. Just thinking out loud...
And it took 4 hours to suddenly sink with no watertight bulkheads!
Doesn’t add up.
The logbooks and further studies of the shoals show they were miles from where the ships sailed and far deeper than previously recorded
The song was written BEFORE the ship was found.
Butch Knouse no is was not it was found 6 month after the song was written a year after
No. The US Navy located the ship using magnetic detection FOUR days after it sank. Lightfoot was inspired to write the song after reading a story in Newsweek two weeks after the ship sank and 10 days after the Navy found her.
Steve. Excellent, informative and entertaining talk! Thank you, thank you, thank you!
The song is entertainment, and was written like a folk song should be. It commemorates the tragedy in a spooky respectful way.
Now I'm no expert on these things but to me it appears that the wind and the waves battered that ship and actually twisted it half on the surface. It was being rocked back an forth in a twisting motion.
She was rumored to have a rotten keel and I heard 2 men that worked at the steel plant here in MI where she was built state that defective welds were passed off. The only thing that is certain is that it broke in two on the surface and it was sudden and catastrophic. Either she bottomed out on a shoal or was twisted in half when stress fractures lined up from a defective hull.
That was really interesting. Thanks for putting it up!
After the waves putting a great strain on the ship, it started to break apart at surface? Bow took a nosedive and the stern flipped over and landed about 160 to 170 away from the stern.
Somewhere on the internet is the rogue wave researchers who have figured out how to find a rogue wave height that occurs in relationship to the wave forecast.
The ship was heading to Zug Island near Detroit, not Sault Ste. Marie...pronounced as SOO, not SALT.
Let’s not forget he’s giving a lecture on this particular subject no matter how tragic!!! He can’t be boring! You’ll go to sleep!!!!
He managed to be offensive to the people alive that lived on these lakes and to be boring at the same time. Ugh
We just saw this lecture in Pewaukee, WI! It was fascinating and played to a full crowd. But please, and I know it is nitpicking and petty, please correct the spelling on the slide mentioning the type of big wave that may have contributed to the Fitzgerald's demise. It would have been a ROGUE wave. The OCD in me would thank you.
The boat scraped bottom after its radar went out. (In the schoals.) It doesn't take long for a ship be wounded with all that weight. Someone in the comments were correct, about the captain Cooper of the Arther Anderson giving the details of whet he believed happened. I would bet my life that Caption Cooper is correct. That's all there is to say.
I run fishing charters on the Gulf of Mexico and they still blow at weather forecast everyday.
"There's no evidence that the hatchways caved in" except the fact that the first two hatch covers are inside the holds.
thank you !
I think the guy did a fine job breaking the weather down compared to the events in the song, humor is his way of presenting and it was aimed at the song not the crew of the ship, unwind your uptight rear ends
The song is a song but it’s respectful. Is he a musician? Was your family member on this ship? You don’t get to decide what’s offensive to others. Unwind your know it all butt.
Close the Great Lakes to freighter traffic on November 1st.
Some things were changed for licensing
Why we he base his presentation on that song?
The Witch of November
Ever notice they never happen when it's warm, only cold, it's the cheap steel loaded with carbon, it gets brittle and fails, just like every diamond has a fleck of carbon steel is very imperfect due to carbon. That would be my guess as to why these tin pans sink or break in two, all 3 main lakes have claimed a modern victim, Michigan got the Bradley in 2 pieces, then Daniel Morrell Lake Huron in two, finally the Fitz in Superior, Lightfoot was worried the families would think he was profiteering in the tragedy like he was, if he really cared screw the lyrics,those families lost their bread winner in many cases the proceeds should go to the families,that'd show me he cares, as they say put your money you know the rest. US stopped making shipsd, no more sinking ships, huh,
Why do I always disagree with Americans? The vessel was heading 141, before the wind, the vessel listed to stb, and was making water to some degree. Two ventilator cowls were missing. The breakers entered the deck just fwd of the aft superstructure, and raced the entire length of the deck, most likely forcing water into the holds, the low coamings and flimsy covers would not be able to withstand the constant attack. When the water mass hit the fwd superstructure it would come to a full stop, overwhelming hatchcovers Nos. 1 and 2, which are found stove in on the wreck. Massive water ingress in # 1 and # 2 hatches would cause the vessel to nosedive instantly, driving it under in minutes. There can be no doubt that the hull's integrity was breached.
Nils Arild Hovland you think that would have happened regardless of whether the covers were secure or not?
Well, if you had a long lasting storm, enough water could enter to nosedive a lakes ship, which is not sectioned like a deepwater ship, but a shortlived storm like this, and no mayday, I suspect something gave way. 30 feet waves is quite common on the open oceans. (Here West Coast Norway we now and then have waves up to 115 feet) See the story here on TH-cam about the UK bulker "DERBYSHIRE"
Nils Arild Hovland
Not exactly sure where you got your info from, but are you are aware that Captain Mcsorley radio'd 4 ½ hours (3 p.m.) before the sinking that he was already taking on more water than his pumps could handle removing? Don't you think he would have had the crew check the hatch covers (even just quickly) when he discovered he was taking on water and still had daylight? Also, are you aware that experiments have been done in the decades following the sinking that have shown that the hatch covers (which were 7 ½ tons each) would have held their seal *far* too well to cause the inflow of more water than the pumps could overcome *even if NO clamps were on them*?
Also, the Fitzgerald _was_ partitioned like ocean-going vessels including cargo-holds separated by bulkheads and several ballast tanks on each side. The Great Lakes are inland seas, with water conditions and storms that mirror the open oceans including wave sizes (including rogue waves), and ships are built accordingly. The main difference between salties and lakers is that salties can sit lower and have an additional beam, while the lakers can be larger.
I'm not saying your _wrong_ per se, because neither you nor I can ever know for sure, but the main problem with your theory is that there were many similar ships in the same area, including one (the Anderson) which was within sight of the Fitzgeralds lights all day and was pounded relentlessly all day by the same seas, so why didn't any of _those_ ships -- with their similar characteristics, cargo holds, and hatch covers (mostly all built at the same shipyards with the same materials) -- sink in that storm, or start taking on more water than their pumps could handle at 3 p.m.?? I believe I know why: because they didn't bottom out earlier in the day like the Fitzgerald did.
Dunno how much time you have spent in bulkers, but bilge pumps are not going to do you much good when you have water ingress into a bulk cargo. I have a suspicion that you have not been cleaning out bilges after such cargoes. Freeboard will be lost by the time there is water in the bilges, and then they will clog! I learned this on a small (5000 dwt) bulker in the North Sea. The other ships did not suffer water ingress, and loss of freeboard. If she touched bottom in such aa weather, her demiste would have been quick!
Dave, No bulkheads. Netting seperated the cargo spaces. Pellets could have clogged suction of pumps,etc.
I don't get the hate on this guy. You have to be at least somewhat entertaining..otherwise this can get really boring, really fast. He clearly realized that, which explains the jokes.
Dog your hatches properly, boys.
It’s not called Lake effect weather for no reason. You keep comparing our lakes to the ocean, we are not the ocean, we are lakes and there’s a difference.Also you can walk out on our lakes on boulder type rocks. They are in those lakes too.
So what about the storm? I'm sure we're all more than tired of that song already.
This guy is a complete jerk. There are still relatives alive from this accident, and he is cracking jokes the entire presentation, a little at first because of nervousness is normal. He acts like a comedian trying to draw laughs every sentence and you can tell the audience is uncomfortable with it. He should stick to his weather charts in a lonely quiet room and leave this wreck alone until he learns some respect for the men who perished.
I agree. How does a College Professor screw up the pronunciation of the city Tulsa? What's more, he identifies a front as a stationary when it's an occluded front because of the color and the bumps and the barbs are on the same side of the line.
I tend to agree ....7 minutes of this clown was enough for me.
@Dave Bunnell Your just one of those people that want to be offended at everything. This guy was entertaining and educational.
Great 😂😂
wanna hear about a storm........fuhgeddabbowdit
Why did he keep calling it a boat? It's a ship! Get your terminology right.
See 2nd sentence at: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_freighter You're not from the Great Lakes region, are you?
I also thought he was appalling. What did he find so humorous in 29 men meeting a horrible ending. He kept trying to make the audience laugh at his "humor". He was chuckling through the entire speech. Mister, you suck! You weren't funny, you're an IDIOT. He even joked that in 1975 people thought maybe ETs took them away and he laughs (at his own jokes). Karma will kick you in the ass.