The Edmund Fitzgerald Investigations
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.ย. 2024
- Shipwreck Historian Ric Mixter is one of the few people who has visited the Edmund Fitzgerald's wreck site in person. He joined us in the Virtual Visitor Center to share more than 20 years of research into the career and tragic loss of this ship. Ric will shares first hand accounts of Capt. McSorely's reputation as a "heavy weather sailor" and examines investigations into the Fitzgerald's loss.
I find the presenter’s assertions that the Fitzgerald didn’t/couldn’t have bottomed out unconvincing for several reasons. First, he offers no plausible explanation for the damage reported by the Fitzgerald immediately after passing near Caribou Island. Second, he seems very comfortable in the notion that the Shoals were not shallow enough to cause a problem. If there were twenty to thirty foot high waves, that does not mean they are that height above the normal lake level (which is the datum the depth soundings are taken from). When there are twenty or thirty foot high waves, the troughs must be BELOW the normal lake level. The water that makes up a thirty foot high wave is displaced from the trough, therefore the ship must drop below the normal lake level when it drops into the trough. This is of great importance when you are sailing over shoals of approximately 40 foot depth in very heavy seas, and your ship draws 25 feet. Third, I don’t agree with the statement saying if the Edmund Fitzgerald had bottomed at Caribou Island, it would have sunk at Caribou Island. That would depend entirely upon the extent of the damage and the rate of water entry into the ship. If, for example, the damage was such that the rate of water entry was slightly more than the ship’s pumps could handle, it is entirely plausible that the ship could have continued sailing until the net incremental water sufficiently overcame the ship’s reserve buoyancy. Under this scenario, this ship might not be able to recover from a large wave that would have otherwise posed no risk of foundering. Fourth, the front 270 feet of the ship is buried deeply in the mud, and the middle approximately 200 feet of the ship was essentially missing, preventing examination of most of the bottom of the ship. Finally, Captain Cooper was following the Fitzgerald, watching it on his radar, and in communication with the Fitzgerald’s captain, and he thought the Fitzgerald had passed over the shoals and had bottomed. I think Cooper’s account and opinion deserves more weight than the speculation of outsiders.
I couldn't have said it better. I was about to type something along these lines then I read yours. If I may add, if McSorley was so reckless, then why did he divert north to hug the shore? That's a cautious move - so, I can't ignore his actions to avoid the storm when people are trying to give the impression that he intentionally drove directly into it. Coopers' words tell the tale more than any piece of paper in my mind. The presenter comes across as a guy who's set in his theories and doesn't seem open to opinions of others. There have been people with equal experience/credentials, etc. that have provided photographic evidence of damage to the bottom of the stern, with notes and reference points. So, I say in response to this presentation, "not so fast." He's very convincing, but we all must remember this is his opinion and there are others just as convincing that disagree with his assertions. I bought the book tonight and I'm eager to see how he supports his theories and we'll go from there. Last thing: Did he offer anything in this video that explained the list? I got interrupted tonight a few times while I was watching this and must have missed it. We know there was a list - no one disputes that. What caused it is the big question. Thanks for indulging me. Your comment was great.
@@ourlifeinwyoming4654 Thanks for the kind words. I should have included the list in my comment about the reported damage to the ship, and the timing of that report. Ships don’t just start listing for no reason.
@@turdferguson4124 Agreed. He lost two vent covers - would that be enough to do it? Also, I remember hearing for years from the “media” that he lost two hatch covers. It’s amazing how that grew legs of its own. He wants to dive on it again but insists on trashing the crew. That’s no way to win over the families to support future explorations.
She wouldn't even need to strike bottom to have hull damage if she dropped down off a wave and it was shallow there would be hydraulic damage just from her dropping. I think she broke her keel on the surface, a nose dive would have blown the piolet house right off of the ship and I doubt the bow would even be identifiable. I spoke with a guy that worked on her and he did two seasons and said she was in terrible shape. They would pound plates of steel between her bottom plates and frames and weld them in and the hogging and twisting that you could see walking the tunnel scared many of the crew. On top of the fact that she was pushed so hard to break tonnage records she was in tough shape.
Like you said... (speculation)... Of outsiders....
She never hit bottom!
Hats Off for Capt. Cooper taking his ship back out to search after making it safely through.
And Captain Donald E. Erickson of the William Clay Ford
Everyone forgets the William Sykes too…the Captain knew that storm was coming and BAD. Thats why he stayed by isle Royal
Thing that gives me pause on the Shoaling theory is Canadas coast guard dove the popular spot Fitzgerald supposedly hit not long after sinking and found no red paint skid markets or broken rocks indicating a collision. (Of course they could have just missed something, or even could be lying) The rocks west of Michipicoten island around Chummy bank north of Caribou Island should been dove too but weren't.
Also the testimony from former Fitzgerald crewmen Richard Orgel and Red Bergner about the unusual flexing of the Fitzgerald during bad weather, McSorely himself supposedly calling it the "Wiggling thing". And the fact the keel was worked hard, McSorely never anchored in bad weather, and Fitzgerald was occasionally taking loads in the 70s that were more than what was intended in the design
Great tribute to the aspirations and professionalism of everyone associated with this ship.
The US Navy constructed two warship classes by modular design in the '70 & '80s. Both classes were plagued with cracking of superstructures, hull plates & fuel tanks throughout their careers. The Fitz had her max load increased three times. She carried very heavy loads and her hull did a lot of flexing throughout her career, by loading & offloading and of course the wave action (30 foot waves on her last trip & 26,000 tons of load). She lasted only 16 years. No one should discount the stresses on that hull which very plausibly caused her loss.
I like that Ric ruffles people's feathers. Seems they tend to be the casuals and people who mostly know Fitzgerald from the song. While shipwreck enthusiasts and researchers in general arent as ruffled by him.
For years, I thought I had a very solid theory for the way the Fitzgerald went down. The one thing I could never explain was the sand over deck lids 234 and 5 watching and hearing you explain it I believe you’re right that ship broke up heart on the surface The section came down on a starboard list that impact caused all that sand to rush over the deck like that Andy would also explain the damage
I continue to be impressed by Ric Mixter's down to earth nature. Ive even reached out to him online and he was most gracious. I have noticed an arrogance in some, who are in the upper echelons of Great Lakes lore. Ric is not one. Also, Jeff Thomas, I believe of Alpena gives a very solid impression of knowledgeable but approachable and humble. Ric Mixter has done amazing work keeping memories alive and educating us nerds. A balance between reverence for these tragedies, our human desire to remember, plus the need to learn safety lessons. I appreciate Ric's candid views on visiting the Fitzgerald again, as that can put you in the crosshairs for great emotional abuse from others. Further, I agree with Ric's stance on re-visiting the Fitz. Thank you, Ric and The US Army Corps Of Engineers Detroit!
Can you please tell me how you reached out to him online?
The comments are interesting.
I’m not a mariner so don’t feel I’ve got any right to say anything but it is interesting to read the comments along with all the videos I’ve watched about the ship wrecks up there.
I do remember watching the news when it happened in 75.
Awesome. Great job.
Great job. You’ve changed my mind on the root cause. Admittedly I was a “hit the shoal” person. This is enormously complex and fascinating story. Thanks!
Mixter knows his stuff. Others criticize, but know far (far) less and haven’t actually been to the wreck.
I missed it if he said it, but what did he suspect caused the list?
I can not find his new book to buy not even on Amazon...anyone knows where to buy it in England??
FANTASTIC loved the video warm regards from england....ps/ how can I get your book in the uk please
I DEEPLY RESENT the eternal nit-picking at Gordon Lightfoot for these bloody "errors" in the lyrics.
He got his info from one of the first articles...but that's incidentsl, eh, fellas?
REST IN WELL-EARNED PEACE, GORD. YOU ARE TERRIBLY MISSED! 🕊🕊🍁🍁🕊🕊🍁🍁🕊🕊
Jeff Thomas-who, BTW, is my favorite storyteller is OBSESSED with the "errors". He cant touch this guy.
FYI... Gordon Lightfoot set up a scholarship fund with the lion's share of the income from that "erroneous" song.
He's dead now...with McSorley and crew..and I'm betting THEY didnt bitch at him for "mistakes".
People like this guy can keep poking away...he's gone now. I saw him in concert..and his kindness was warm and WONDERFUL. Not like his always-ripping critics.
Yeah. Yes, GL did take a little poetic license saying fully loaded for Cleveland, but that’s likely so that it rhymed with the end of the stanza “feelin’”.
Did you know that in later years GL in live performances changed “the main hatchway gave in” to “it grew(or was, I can’t remember) dark, he said then”. The reason being that the families were very upset that the initial findings said the hatch clamps weren’t tightened down, ie., it was the CREW’S fault the ship sank.
He also changed “musty” to “rustic” because the hall is really a church and he thought “musty” sounded disrespectful.
I agree with you. I think that Lightfoot did his research on the Edmund Fitz, but used some slight poetic license to make the song come together.
@@kirkminer4190 In an interview in the late '90's, Gord said that while he didn't deliberately alter the facts with his lyrics, he wrote the song while caught up in the pathos of the most tragic shipwreck in modern times...and-he looked into the camera while saying "The news that the Fitzgerald had gone down with all hands was like a gut-punch to me."
Gordon Lightfoot was a Modern-Day Troubadour...The Minstrel Of The Dawn.
And I will always miss him.
Thank you for your input. We who are his fans miss him terribly. Katarina
I have a feeling some of the welds holding the. Keel in repair didn't make it
Yes i agree
Wrong a few points Mr Mixter, she was overloaded on her final run. With much more then she was designed to carry. Also, ask any captain or the lake carrier's association, the hatches have minimal leaking. Had she been leaking top side the pumps could have handled it. Also Captain Cooper was on deck for the entire time.
I used to look up to ric, but the more he talks the more bs I call him on. What a shame.
PROPELLER shredded life boats
Please only have the speaker on camera; too many distractions on side. Thank you
I like his knowledge, but him critiquing Gordon Lightfoot is a bit much. I don't think Gordon said Wisconsin and Cleveland to be accurate, those fit the song better. Saying coming from some mill in Minnesota, or fully loaded for Toledo, just don't fit the song as much.
The Song is for the normies. The song serves it's purpose to introduce people to the Fitzgerald story. While shipwreck enthusiasts and historians tell people the actual facts.
The Burlington/Northern Ore dock is in Superior, Wisconsin "some mill in Wisconsin" works correctly.
My theory is Edmund Fitzgerald sank by a gigantic rogue wave. from what I understand two 30 foot waves hit the Arthur M Anderson and caught up with the fits. My theory is those two waves became one giant one. Just a theory. What are you guys think?
Two 30 foot waves became one.
Seems like it definitely makes sense to me
@@patrickhaagThis is the theory i go with too. It coincides with Bernie Coopers story. When you look at the pictures of the Fitzgerald underwater and see how bad the front of the pilothouse is smashed inward. And the visor literally crushed flat against the widows in some places, that would indicate a MASSIVE force coming straight, almost on top of the bow, like thousands of gallons of water in a split second. It could have dealt the final blow to submerge the front end.
Possibly, but McSorley reported the list - he was taking water, allot of water. If the big wave took her down, that would have been after she was leaning in the water. The Anderson took the 2 waves and stayed afloat. It makes sense that if the Fitz was damaged then it couldn't take the big wave, or the two - whichever. But the presenter dismisses damage to the bottom. I bought the book tonight and I can't wait to dig in to see how he explains the list. Were the vents big enough to let in enough water to cause the list; or did it come in from the bottom? He was running both his pumps and they weren't doing any good. That's according to Cooper telling us what McSorley told him. That's a big opening somewhere that allowed more water in than pumps can handle. Those pumps could move allot of water. And, if the wave hit while all that was going on, then I think it could've been the last piece of the puzzle. Had it not been for the wave, aka "the seas" the Fitz might have been able to make it. You raise an excellent point.
@@EthanCollier01 the damage around the pilot house is something i noticed right away when i saw tue wreck. Its pushed down like tin foil and i dont think ive ever heard an explanation or anyone even point it out. I thought maybe im wrong but i believe the sea was to the aft of the ship. Seems like the front of the ship hitting bottom would cause more damage. Idk it happened quick enough to not give them even one min to grab the phone and put out a mayday. What is the explanation of the damage to pilot house?
According to him he's the best and only expert on the Fitzgerald, the others must be cosplaying as a expert/scientist.
And every woman he slept with gave him a standing ovation afterwards.
Thumbs out to the interviewer she let her guest talk. 👍