A Bargain Aint Always a Bargain....Winchester White Box .45acp Self-Defense AMMO Test!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ก.ย. 2024
- Checking out the Winchester white box jacketed hollow point ammo in .45 auto. Are these good budget options or overpriced underperformers? Heavy clothing Ballistic Gel Test using a Rock Island Armory and Taurus Commander 1911!
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Your thumbnail shows a box of FMJ's, but the bullets on top are obviously hollow points. Into lying much?
Tell me the truth...How bad does stupid hurt?
You must be looking at the wrong thumbnail son
Well, congratulations, you are the first contestant for dumbest comment of the year award.
It is clear that you voted for JB and the cackling hyena.😂
You must be a democrat
Even at 800fps I still wouldn't want to get hit by it .45 makes a big hole.
Fps isn't relevant unless you're piercing through armor. Not sure how important ot is against car doors
@@jason200912it is relevant. I don’t want my bullets flying slower than a BB gun
@@SaintPhinehas fmj 45 may be slow but it will pierce through car doors and drywall just the same
@@jason200912 not really and why would I use fmj on a car door or drywall
@@SaintPhinehas why else would you need velocity for? Shooting matrix super human bullet dodgers?
I would love to see you pull out your short barrel Colt for a few more tests. As one of the many owners of a Smith & Wesson M&P Shield in .45, the 3.3" and similar short barreled guns could use a little love. The Federal HST, Hornady Critical Duty/Critical Defense, Speer Gold Dot and other premium self defense rounds would make a great video.
Use a Colt Defender, if you can find one, or a ParaOrdinance Warthog. Both have 3" barrels if I'm not mistaken.
Thanks Brother for bearing the cold to make this video for us. A Safe and Healthy New Year to you and your Family!
Thank you sir. Same to you!😎👊
Parabéns pelo canal, que esse novo ano seja repleto de bençãos e grandes teste 😎😎
I just checked a couple online spots and the price wasn't much different than FMJ so, I guess if one is going bargain basement (in keeping with our economy) the "might expand" is a somewhat better option than the "definitely won't expand" of FMJ, although that's still a hunk of lead and copper travelling through someone's innards at a diameter that would be considered not too shabby from a smaller caliber expanding round. A little better than "better than nothing," I reckon.
Great test and great info!
They're more than double what I can get fmj for around here. I can get fmj for $18/box.😆
@@ToolsandTargets I just glanced at a couple online places, but if there is a significant price difference, then no, they are definitely not worth it!
This test right here is why I go to Tools&Targets for the lowdown. I have tested 9mm in 115 and 147 JHP and got really good results shooting into water jugs. One round of the 147 expanded as well as the 115, even with a 3.1 barrel and the velocity on the box at 990fps, so I know that Winchester knows to use a thin enough jacket and soft enough lead to get good expansion at low velocity. But one of the 147s looked like it had hit a steel bar on one side, shearing off the jacket on one side and flattening the lead out on one side all the way to the base of the bullet. Instead of a mushroom, it looked like it had been in a pencil sharpener. VERY inconsistent performance in the 147s. With this .45 test and the bad showing of your .40 test, it's pretty clear that WInchester's bullet quality control is terrible. Their USA Ready has broken apart for me, too. I have never shot the Rangers or Silvertips in my milkjug tests. Your channel is one of a very few that I trust to tell the straight truth without some wishy-washy fence-sitting.
Appreciate that, brother!😎👊
This channel is one of the best on TH-cam!
Thank you sir.😎👊
That’s too bad. If I remember right, the bargain Remington UMC JHPs performed amazingly well. Thanks for testing these.
This is why it's important to test your carry ammo in the cold too. Just because the box says it should do something and the projectile looks like it should do something doesn't always mean it will perform the same way in the middle of summer vs. middle of winter. :)
This has absolutely nothing to do with temperature.
@@ToolsandTargets exactly! It has to do with false advertising. And they get away with it because their claims are that they are using a fixed test barrel of a given length.
Interesting test. Thank you for taking the time to perform it. None of these performed fantastically as far as expansion goes, but the hollow point appears to have prevented overpenetration; they did not act like FMJ. FMJ 230 gr .45 usually penetrate around 26” or so. In that regard, and the fact that they are, indeed, .45 caliber projectiles, they would most likely serve the intended purpose. Great Grandpa used a .45-70 on deer and according to Grandpa, there was never anything other than a thumb-sized through-and-through hole in the animal.
I’m not even a big fan of the .45, and I really wish these had expanded well, but I think there’s something to be said for a projectile that large going through its intended target, whether or not it expands.
Back in the early 2010s I ordered a case of WWB .45 from a well-known website that’s still in business to this day. They were supposed to be product # Q4170 but they sent me Q4170A1 instead. They were branded Winchester, but they were really compact boxes, and the contents were split up into two separate little square racks within each box. They said they were made in the Czech Republic. Turns out that back then, Winchester contracted with Sellier & Bellot when demand exceeded their production capabilities. Cases were stamped with Winchester but had a dot on each side of the brand name and had the classic flat S&B large primers. They were terrible, although I know S&B has gotten better since then. Tried hard to get my money back but never did, and I’ve never bought from them since.
Very interesting
I've always had excellent luck with S&B ammo. It wouldn't be my defensive choice but it's always been excellent renge ammo and I get very good case life when reloading the cases as well.
This again is a perfect example of why caliber matters and why, (although I tested extensively in gel for a while) I don't trust gel results that much. I've seen many times(both in your testing and mine where smaller calibers expanded massively and didn't leave anywhere near the wound track that .45 did from the commander. I have also hunted extensively with handguns and seen bullets that perform poorly in gel perform perfectly in actual living tissue. So in reality it's still a guessing game. But it makes me think there's something to be said for caliber.
The best use of gel is comparing bullets against other bullets. If some do fantastic in gel and stuff like this doesn't, it's a no brainer which is the "better" ammo. It isn't meant to show you what it does when it hits a pig and bounces off of bone and everything else. Gel is a fantastic medium for showing you trash ammo from manufacturers who couldn't care less what their stuff does, versus great ammo.
Tools, I get what you're saying and I'm thankful for what you're doing! All of it, especially calling out these ammo manufacturers for all the lying and deceit that's gone on forever. My point was that gel is an excellent medium for comparison. And we use it because it's what we have. But not necessarily a great medium for gauging overall bullet performance. And also that a bullet that expands well may not cause the most disruption or damage in either gel or tissue. And more to that point, we can never absolutely count on bullet performance to either cleanly take an animal nor stop an attacker. I think it's a common misconception that gel actually does simulate what a bullet will do in tissue and all other factors such as velocity, energy, caliber (unexpanded projectile diameter) and bullet weight have been dismissed. Those things are every bit as important as the performance of the projectile itself. I could sit here listing examples all day long of ammunition that I've personally seen perform with devastating effects in live tissue that in my testing as well as yours and many others would be considered mediocre in gel.
Thanks again for all the great work you're doing! I always enjoy your videos.
@@johncoleman2495 People don't buy ammo to stop the gelatin monster from Hotel Transylvania. They buy ammo to survive an attack from humans, and animals. Certain ammo has been proven to do exactly that, but has lousy performance in gelatin/Jello.
@@walkingwolf8072 are you stupid?
The slower bullet had a better wound channel, interesting result.🤔
Thanks for all the testing you do, I find it is very valuable information.👍
With .45 Caliber rounds....even if the hollowpoint fails in 45 caliber, its still a big hunk of lead in a large caliber that leaves a big hole. Winner either way.
I have stayed away from WWB since they moved their factory to Mississippi. Many, many horror stories of missing primers, gunpowder, etc since that move from the Olin Alton, IL plant to Oxford, MS. Poor quality control down there. ☹
Great test Tools! Winchester must be skimping on quality nowadays. I used to have pretty good luck with White Box .45acp. Now I gotta go buy another box to compare them with what my old results. I appreciate you doing this.
Some ammo companies stick to spec, I know Federal usually is pretty hot. Massively creatored primers etc.
When are you doing another live stream? You do the best live streams on GunTube.
I've actually been trying to get my gun room cleaned up and organized so I can set up a place to do some lives in there. It gets chilly out in the garage this time of year.😆
👍🏻👍🏻
Church of ToolsandTargets.
For testing more of the white box I haven’t seen it in a while but they used to make a 110 version for the 357 mag
Predominantly why I use the white box just for range ammo. Always love your videos chief!
Thank you sir!😎👊
@@ToolsandTargets ~~~ No problem chief!
That Winchester white box is Dam good in 9mm check my page I recently tested this load in 115 grain and it performed PHENOMENAL for cheap generic $25 for a fiddy box ammo
@@djangofreeman9382 ~~~ I think it is hit or miss, not consistent. Or it could also be the barrel of the tool it is coming out of that makes the difference. I just know I’ll still with my Speer Gold Dots, HSTs, and Sig V~Crowns for self defense purposes.
A little disappointing, but they would still penetrate while shattering bones in the way. I've got a few boxes around that I purchased four or five years ago. Hopefully they were made better then. I kept them after selling my M&P 45C. I did see a couple gel tests a few years ago, and at that time they seemed to be a legitimate carry round, that expanded well. Manufacturers may change materials or designs now and then, could be the case here. I will stay with proven designs like HST, Federal Punch, Hdrashok Deep, and Gold Dot.
This test just further reinforces my opinion of only wanting pistol cartridges going over 1000 fps, given the really dodgy hollow point performance once you get lower than that. Really no reason these shouldn't be going at least 900 out of the five inch. Thanks for the test.
Yeah, I knew it was gonna be ugly at those speeds.😆
Because 45acp & many other pistol calibers have been watered down even 12ga buckshot has been watered down. If you want full power buck you have to buy foreign shotgun ammo like Fiocchi or Rio.
I bought a bunch of this from an FFL that was going out of business (because of my state's new jacked up FFL laws) I got a decent discount on it. I see it as decent range ammo, good barter ammo in a SHTF situation..........or good enough to use when it's all I have left in a SHTF situation. It'd never be in a home defense or carry gun until it was all I had left, though.
Bummer. You're definitely correct about the price and performance comparison to other rounds. Ammo Inc. in both their plain JHP and the XDef come to mind.
Yep, both much better than these.
I've been tempted to get a 5.7 for a while just to have one honestly. It really is the stinking ammo cost and as it's availability. Yes both are better lately.
Great test . For us back woods hikers I would love to see a penetration test between a regular 45acp FMJ and the Winchester 45acp 230 grain FMJ flat point that they make .
I use Winchester white box FMJs for practice, but I never trusted and of their JHPs. Looks like my gut feeling was justified, at least for this caliber. Thanks, toolman.
Great test! As with other Winchester "White" box cartridges these are meant for range/practice use..... exception the 9MM you tested and the Winchester White box .357 Magnum 110 grain which has excellent performance without the excessive muzzle flip and blast of the 125 grain .357 Magnum according to my own personal test with my Colt King Cobra and Colt Magnum Carry...... 😀😀😀
Thank you sir.😎👊
Cool test! Thank you! Love the .45acp tests! Learn a ton. This one made my day and I have been having a really lousy run of luck. So thank you for this video!!!
My experience: I ran into a 6 1/2 foot rattlesnake and I had 11 rounds of that exact ammo in my Taurus PT145. Only 4 of the 11 rounds fired. All showed good pin contact.The last 1 didnt even leave the barrel. Since that day, I advice EVERYONE to AVOID it like the plague. 3of the 4 hit the snake before it stopped chasing me.DONT TRUST YOUR LIFE TO IT
Thats why a shotgun with #6 exists. Even a Taurus or SNW Governor in 45 Colt 410 if you HAVE to have a bullet instead of shot. Best thing to do if you hear a rattle tho? STOP....back away slowly. Im not saying WWB doesn't suck for SD usage, IDK where you were but if a rattler is CHASING you after you managed to hit it once? I'd be kinda nervous about coming by to visit😂
In 230gr, I mostly have ball ammo. Some of the .45ACP HP rounds I have are 180gr. I've never shot or tested any of the 180s, but the speed on the box is higher, closer to 1000fps muzzle. The lighter bullets might work... I don't have that much .45ACP to play with. It's not something I'd regularly carry, except openly on my hip. I'm not really that concerned about expansion in a .45ACP, its a slow round. The hollow points I got were cheap at the time and may work better in a G21 than a 1911... Anyway, I have the .45's for fun and nostalgia... 9mm is my primary defensive handgun round. I'm glad to see you doing these ammo tests. They are educational.
Thank you sir. I'd definitely go lighter if I were carrying .45acp.😎👊
Seen the white box FMJ 230 grain on special,back of the box states 831fps at 5 yards and 817 at 25.
Selling at $14.80 usd for 50 (In Australia)
The Winchester Ranger 45 auto +P “T series” advertise 985 and 965 at five and twenty five.
These are going for $27 usd for 50.
Being we cant shoot fmj at the range these hollow points are popular and usually sell out in no time.
Probably why the fmj’s are on special
That's a great deal for .45 fmj.😎👊
I was impressed you hit the 75 yard target. Thanks for all your hard work.
Thanks ! We appreciate the show!
Well 45 doesn't shrink. But not what we are paying for. Shot placement in the right spot is a bad day for a bad guy. Over penetration? I would say yes but not as bad as others. Thank you for honest demonstration.
Thank you sir. Appreciate you as always!😎👊
Ball is looking better to me. Thanks!
Crazy that the white box 9mm 115 works amazing
Another great and informative video, thanks Tools! BTW, I wonder what kind of results you would get from the 230 grain +P JHP from Black Hills ammo. The few tests I've seen so far seems to perform better than the Golden Sabers and Hornady 230 grain +P XTP. Thanks brother 👍
Thank you sir.🤔
I have had enough Win white box ammo over the years that I no longer buy it. I had some 44mag 240gr hollow points that were dangerous. The primers were blowing out. Win white box used to be a cheap range fodder. However, no ammo is cheap today. I load my own ammo these days. As for reliable expansion on 45ACP? Cowboy Action lead, around 12 hardness, at 800fps to 900fps from a 45ACP will expand reliably.
👍👍Thanks Tools, your off to a good start in 2024
Those Rock Island 1911s are very good tools, indeed. The one in 10mm is awesome.
Agreed. It's been flawless.
that 10 is gonna be my next tool also,i just have to save up for it,had it but other things came up and now i gotta start over
I have the officers 3.5 in and it is awsome. Just wish it was a series 80.
@@victorwright4898why series 80 ?
If you're concerned about drop safety, I think if you go with a titanium firing pin renders uncocked 1911 clone drop safe. Same for cocked/locked condition with proper sear to hammer engagement..
Someone back me up or correct me ?
@@peacemaker-du4hz Know the feeling!
It's not just bargain WWB. Premium brands of .45 acp are hit or miss too. It's just how .45 acp is.
I bought a box of W 22lr and the bullets were coming out of the brass. I called W to report this. I was shuffled from one department to another and finally hung up
Some fud totally forgot that the 45 itself is subsonic. Real world use in the wars had many incidents of 45 sidearms dropping men with single shots. This was well known in the pacific and wrote about repeatedly.
👍
Good testing. I’ve got some of these that are will be leaving my defense ammo cabinet and relocated to my target range ammo cabinet 👍🏻. Glad I didn’t buy a bunch of them. I still hold true with my 45 ranger T ammo.
They would still make some big holes if you had to use em.😎👊
Thank you for another science lesson!
I found this test surprising because of my experiences with this round. I’ve shot a few things with it and recovered the bullet. I had picture perfect expansion on a snowman years ago. This has been my carry round for years. I guess I might have to reevaluate that choice.
The gas escaping in slow motion
I had to leave that in.😎👊
Velocity makes the old HPs work and the new HPs work better.
Ammo for "self defense" is absolutely NOT where I am looking to save a few bucks. I usually buy Underwood loads for all of my carry and home defense options, though Federal HST and Speer Gold Dot are also well respected and have great real-world track records.
Good dot and hst are the only ones that I believe work fine in the 45’s @ 800-900.
😎👊
Do Sellier & Bellot 230g JHP in .45 next! Love seeing these budget ammo tests, everybody makes HST's and Ranger T vids, i wanna see what i use on my average range trip instead
Years ago, I tested this round from a 5" with four layers of denim and water jugs, getting good expansion.
Hey Tools, thanks for another great test. Keep up the good work Sir! 👍👍👊
Appreciate that!😎👊
Good test! I've got a pile of older WWB 230g fmj and it seems to be loaded good. It's definitely dirty, but very reliable range ammo with decent accuracy in my 1911 and FNX45 Tactical.
Haven't bought .45 ACP in years, cause I've got a pile of it. I'll continue to carry the Speer Gold Dot I have for it. It was cheap 10 years ago.
I think ammo companies will continue to skimp on powder with increased costs. Supposed to be 15% increase in powder this year. I bought another 8 lbs, so be good for a while.
I keep waiting on the powder to disappear at my local shop but a guess folks just aint in a hurry anymore.
@ToolsandTargets yep, seeing lots of powder here too. Variable on primers, finding them, but still not very good price.
I've gotten to the point where there is very little ammo that i will buy, I reload most everything.
Happy New Year, Brother! The only white box ammo that I like is the 44 mag 240 grain jacketed soft point. Best hog round ever. Great video 🙏🏿🇺🇲
Thank you sir. Don't think I've seen that locally.😎👊
Popped that 75 yard steel 3 times 😮😮😮 LOL 😂!
Thanks !
😜
Yep, more expansion would be good. Though the .45 starts out where some 9mm's end up. These gel tests are great, it would be nice for someone who follows actual shootings come out with some info. Way back in the day Evan Marshall did a comprehensive breakdown of one shot stops with torso hits. Very enlightening. With today's advances in bullet design and performance those results may not have changed much. The 9mm can be pretty ineffective without the right bullet in the one shot stop category. Do a test with all FMJ bullets in a cross caliber comparison. The nine will surprise.
thanks
When you test JHP. Maybe show the difference between a ball round at the end.
This shouldn't surprise anyone. .45 acp is notorious for poor hollow point performance.... Low velocity gets you all the time. I carry hollow points to avoid liability as it relates to lawyers, that said tumbling is good and this is why you carry heavy bullets. With this caliber particularly, heavy gets it, it really transfers kinetic energy. The high-end high-performance bullets, the only ones I've shot and tested myself that I'd recommend are hydra-shok and polymer tip XTPs. Sometime ball is best.
Great video tell you live near me by the back ground i think,,,, front Royal King been bit low ammo lately
🇦🇺😎👍Precision jelly shooting…perhaps you’d get better results out of a much longer barrel…bit disappointment but better than fmjs….great science sir🏁 🇺🇸
Winchester white box is range ammunition. For training only!
Thanks for the vid! Seems like WWB is best when purchased as FMJs for the range. 🤔 😄
It’s a shame this stuff is expensive and doesn’t expand. The white box used to be a good value. The 45 is moving to slow and the 40 had solid ballistics it just didn’t open up. If it was cheaper it would be fine for practice but at current prices it’s a no go.
Had high hopes after the 4.25 test and then WW let us down again. Don’t have any and know what not to look for. Thanks for the jelly test Tools!
I would run the projectiles but load mine spicy. After seeing your recoil i could tell their not up to speed
😎👊
Back in 93' I killed a deer with that load out of a Marlin Camp Carbine. It was chronoing 1000fps out of the rifle and dropped the deer in her tracks.
This is the best freedom seed testing channel on TH-cam. Would like to have seen them do better. Another great test brother tools.
Thanks for testing this. .45 ACP has great potential. Though only with the right ammo like HST.
Ty
Haven't had a lot of luck from winchester so not much surprise good test Tools thanks for the video.
Other than the 12ga AA hulls I have never had much faith in Winchester firearms or ammunition
winchester white box has done ok in other gel tests.
They have 38+P and 357 mag too, hmmmm! never tried any myself! I do have about 750 rds of the 9mm, no regrets on that lol! One thing for sure they penetrated good! ha! Happy Friday! 👍💥💥
I remember you testing a few calibers of this in the bare gelly and they did ok but dress em up not so good ! Probably should've had the trapper hat or ol swamp ears on it that weather...😅
thanks for letting us know how they perform. looks like we are paying too much for these rounds. thanks again and I registered a likek.
Not a total failure but substandard expansion due to slow velocity given the bullet construction. It might work better if it was a +P loading. There are better loads out there but you have to pay more too. Speer and Hornady make some good ones. Thanks for another excellent test.
I have become addicted to your videos. Just out of curiosity, what state are you in?
They don’t bonded the lead and copper are apart on the 4-1/4 inch fired bullet.
Thanks for the effort, and this just proves that the White Box stuff is basically FMJ junk. For what you pay for, like you said, so many other and better options out there that actualluy work. Off topic/ You know that you and I are close to each other, and the quick icing in the AM is a direct bullseye on you, then the rain will clear it out. Be safe and have those power back ups ready to go! 🙏
Yeah, they were slinging nasty salt all on the roads since yesterday like it's gonna be some arctic blizzard. 😆
The Winchester .38spl 130gr fmj is crap. Their primers are totally unreliable.
😆
Thanks for posting your test results. As expected, the White box offerings aren't exemplary. I use white box ammo strictly for range or competition. It's very reliable in it's feeding, firing, and extraction.
Great video Tools! You ever give much thought to doing some reloading videos? Maybe reloading and then some testing in the jell? Kinda like going though a reloading manual starting with the lowest load and progressing to the max load showing the results in the jell.
Sorry if that sounds stupid. Brand new to reloading and just thought that would be interesting. Not sure if most of your viewers are into that stuff or not
Thank you sir. I had intentions early on of doing something like that, but time and YT has put it on the back burner. I still want to eventually do a little of that and have more than everything I need to do it except that time.😆.
Thanks for responding Tools. It would be kind of neat to see you review such and such brand and we see the performance of that brand then you work up a load to out perform the brand name manufacturer or something similar
The 1st shot from the 5" started to expand one petal which caused the tumbling (my inexpert opinion). When I can get Federal HST standard pressure expanding reliably to .85" I will be using my WWB JHP ammo for target practice. Thanks for the test, I definitely won't be buying any more WWB.
Yep 😎👊
Wow. Those used to work pretty good. Winchester cheapin out on us. I want me money back!!!
Another great jelly test Brotha ..
I use Speer Lawman & Winchester White Box, with both in FMJ, for my range ammo. I never gave it a thought to look for JHPs for range work. They obviously don't work as a self defense round, so they are only good for the range.
Thanks for the test tools....Winchester white box all calibers pretty much garbage ammo i avoid it ill pay a little more for better quality!😊
Congrats on the 61k Buddy
Appreciate that, my friend!😎👊
I’m thinking about using these and putting some silicone caulking in the hollow point….like a gold dot gen2…..
Interesting video Tools. WWB did well in 147 9mm, but this was not ideal. I do have a box of this in the safe, but the only ammo loaded in my 1911 (which is only a safe/range gun anyway) is Critical Duty 220gr +P
WWB has always been crap. Used it off and on for 20 some years and it still to this day is the only ammo where I get primer failures in any of my guns. Bought a bunch of White Box Nato 9mm hoping it would be different but its just more of the same. Good for malfunction practice at the range.
Maybe Win. Used a 10 inch barrel! Try Remington green and white box.
😆😆😆
Great video as always thanks! Your the man!
😎👊
Looking at the rifling marks on the bullets, the Taurus bullet has much more angled marks. The more angled the rifling marks the faster the twist. If the Taurus has faster twist that would explain both the tumbling AND the lack of expansion in the RIA.
😎👊
Man, I've literally 1000s of rounds of WWB .45 ACP downrange...at the range😂
Nice test!!! Watching this made my day. Now tools you already know I’m a BIG!!! 9mm Fanboy and I hate to state the obvious but both the 115 grain Winchester white box performed phenomenal and the 147 did pretty decent using my M&P shield with short 3.1” barrel…The reason I’m so pro 9mm because these ammoCompanies if they don’t get anything else right there at least gonna make sure their Nine-Mil loads are proper because it’s their #1 most popular bread and butter seller
Thank you sir. Very true.😎👍
I've noticed wwb is way underpowered. Tends to shoot low. Grouping seems fine but it always seems to shoot low compared to my federal ammo