#10MinuteTalk
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
- “You should never use match ammo for hunting.” “Match ammo is fantastic for hunting.” The topic of match ammo for hunting may be one of the most polarizing. There are two camps with little in between. Mark Boardman and Ryan Muckenhirn tackle this hornets’ nest of a subject, talking about the differences between “match” and “hunting” ammo, provide the theory they personally subscribe to, anecdotes of times they’ve used match ammo for hunting, and touch on regions of the world where using match ammo for hunting is more common than not.
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Series or single show with Ryan going through most common types of hunting bullets and giving his take on each would be much appreciated / interesting! Could listen to Ryan talk about cartridges / bullets just about all day long.
“My favorite bullet [brand/product line/weight] for caliber X is…” Assume whitetail deer at 400 yards and in.
6.5 Creedmoor
6.5 PRC
270 Winchester
6.8 Western
7mm-08
7mm PRC
308 Win
30-06
300 PRC
Does that cover the important bases? I’d be most interested in hearing Ryan’s casual but so well considered WHY for his choices. That young man does not make uninformed decisions.
Yes please!
Agree 1000% , really enjoy Ryan’s take on hunting bullets and reloading!
He's a little soft and uses words like cute ect. Other than that he has some knowledge that is useful. Definitely couldn't listen "all day".
@@Fctsdntcarebouturfeelings yeah, you are right. All day probably a little strong, would probably find my limit around 7hrs!!
Whatever words like “cute” you’ve heard him say that you aren’t a fan of… I challenge you to find me another phrase on TH-cam anywhere that tops “…and that [insert any wild game] folded like a $5 tent..” , one doesn’t exist!!!
Another great discussion. I’m in New Zealand and find myself using ELD-M bullets for pretty much all my hunting these days. They have been unbelievably good in 6.5mm.
The main thing you MUST be aware of is if your impact velocity is above 2700fps there is a chance of the projectile blowing up on the surface and not penetrating sufficiently at all, but under that velocity I have had 100% excellent results. I’m using mostly short barrels with suppressors and the slower muzzle velocity of 2670fps with the 140gr ELD-M is perfect. Expansion is great down to 1800fps and even a bit lower.
Here in NZ, neck shots on deer are the preferred option if you & your rifle are up to the job - maximum meat for the freezer is the goal. Fairly easy shot out to 200+ yards for most folks I hunt with. I guess your reasons for projectile choice are very valid though when you only get a few chances per year. Luckily for us, we can go shoot a deer every weekend if we wanted to and with regular feral goat shooting/culling you do get very confident once you have shot 100’s of game animals a year. I now order the 140gr ELD-M by the 1000!
I’m one of those in the states that goes for the neck. I don’t like tracking after the shot so it’s a good way to make sure I don’t have to
looking at the 168gr eldm . Have you got much experience with those? Was of my concerns that you mentioned here was taking a closer shot and with the high velocity of the bullet and it blowing up.
Agree. ELDM 168g in my 308 are devastating on big Sambar here in Oz
You're trying too hard not to offend. Stop walking on egg shells. Here is my controversial take... Bonded, Monolithic and Partitions are perfect bullets out to 500 or so yards. To get a ELD-X or any match bullet to expand properly you have to be taking a pretty far shot at an animal. The distance to get those match bullets to expand correctly are in my opinion too far of a shot. What I would call an unethical shot. Of course... long range hunting is all the craze right now, so this comment will not be popular.
Hmm, I agree with the first part. Bonded, Monos and Partition style bullets are effective to 400m, 500m potentially even further, depending on the BC and velocity, etc.
I wouldn't say X distance or more is unethical, personally I'd say the distance where the bullet no longer effectively kills OR where the shooter is no longer capable of accurately shooting the vitals of that animal is the Maximum range of where it goes from ethical to unethical. For instance, I probably could hit a shot at 500m, but personally I don't think I'm ready further than 300m as of my current skill. So for me an unethical shot would be 300m+ until I'm capable of consistently hitting shots out to even further than 500m.
To your point about the Match bullets. I've taken multiple Gemsbok within 100m, as close as around 50m with 168gr ELD-M going 2750fps in my .308. Furthest I've taken anything was a Warthog at 308m with the ELD-M. On the Warthog it was a clean passthrough and it ran about 50m. The Gemsbok ran less than 50m, usually about 20 paces and are dead by the time you walk the 100-150m to get there... that's been my experience. Most warthogs within 150m have dropped in their tracks.
I've had great results with the ELD-M, around 10 Gemsbok taken, BUT - if I was invited to go hunt somewhere, I'd go out of my way to find proper premium bullets like the AccuBond, TTSX, etc. Why? Guarantee. While I've had great results with the ELD-Ms, I've also always had the time to wait for the perfect opportunity or to not shoot at all. If I was bound to just a couple of days of hunting, I'd want something where I know that any angle, I can take that shot without issue.
🤔 Either their are alot of "Copy Cat" Videos, or their is a "Coordinated Effort" to move "Public Opinion" in a specific direction on this issue? I say the latter! Now, who would "profit" the most by trying to sell this ridiculous idea? That would be a company that is making the Most "New Cartridges", with a Limited Amount of Available Factory Hunting Ammunition Offerings for them! Now who is pumping out the "Most New Cartridges" and making alot of this "Match Grade Ammunition"? Exactly! Is it cheaper to make a "Target Bullet", rather than a Good "Bonded Bullet"? Yep! So, does that Company have a "Vested Financial Interest" in doing so? Yep! Now, Who does that sound like to you? Perhaps your "Favorite Company" (Sarcasm) that makes alot of copper bullets??? You see, many companies are now willing to Lie to us (just for short term profit), and even sell out their country by pushing products of a known U.S. adversary (like "Chinese Products") too! Does that sound like Anyone Else we know here? Exactly! These are Evil Times Austin and it never hurts to bring a "Health Dose" of skepticism to the table! If you want to know the Truth, just follow the money trail! So, Who Sponsored and Wrote the Bill to Outlaw Lead Ammunition (Hummm...)? But, following the money trail is sometimes easier said than done, but some things are obvious to those with a brain! 👨🏫 Especially on this topic! 😡
🤔 Oh, I forgot to mention another Bill before Congress Right Now, that "Prohibits Hunting" in Certain ("Listed") States! Yes, you heard me right! ☹ You may want to check and see if your State is on the list and if you've been "sold out" by your local politicians or some of these "Corporations" doing business in your state? 😡 Traitors! 🤬
@@marcmoore4115your statement is 100% on the money.
I have the extremely good fortune to be able to hunt on my own property for whitetails, bobcats, coyotes, and other various critters. Since I can hunt them very accessibly and often I am also afforded the luxury of waiting for my "perfect shot".
However, if I were to draw an elk tag out west, I'd take either a Hornady CX or a Barnes LRX and I'd accept no substitute.
I might get that "perfect" shot and an ELD-M would have been totally fine, but I might also only get a decently hard quartering shot and it be the only opportunity that presents itself. If that's the case I want to prepare for the worst case scenario instead of hoping for perfect. It's also worth making the argument of "bringing enough gun"
My 7PRC that I have can keep a 160gr CX bullet within the correct velocity band for expansion out to 600yds pretty handily, 700 would be pushing it. I regularly shoot that 7PRC out to 1000+ yds (again extremely fortunate to own property where I can hunt and shoot) but I DON'T shoot with the 160gr CX very often (I only own 2 boxes because it's not my ammo of choice for that rifle)
So at that point the rifle and bullet combination is completely capable beyond the range where I am comfortable in that scenario.
270 WSM 145g ELDX doing 3200 +- at 150 yards on bull elk . Did not take two steps be fore down and dead. The bullet can work on closer shots.
Nathan Foster of NZ has done extensive work regarding this sort of thing. You guys should invite him for an interview.
I'll never forget skinning a cow elk that my old man shot with a Barnes bullet. The bullet had come to rest perfectly in between the meat and hide on the opposite side of the entry wound. It had mushroomed exactly as intended, and when weighed, retained all of it's weight. It was pretty impressive to see how effective of a design it was honestly.
I hunt elk exclusively with a muzzleloader and I use a Barnes saboted fifty-caliber TMZ I have killed over five elk using the barnes ranging from 30 yards to 200 yards and I can honestly say my bullet went completely through the elk and hung up on the hide on the other side every time I think the reason why it doesn't exit is because the mushroom is so substantial it can't poke through the hide on the other side. Once it comes through the animal the hide on the other side has so much elasticity it stretches and the bullet won't tear through because it has mushroomed and is almost flat. And yes most of my bullets I got back where 100% weight retention. I remember one time I had got a bullet back that was missing a couple of pedals because of bone.
@@mountainman9973 That's pretty impressive! This particular shot was a touch over 400 yards with a .300 RUM, and the effect was exactly as you described. Too much surface area to penetrate the opposite side after that massive energy transfer. I'd have to call that pretty ideal.
My state says that u can use expanding bullets to hunt. Do match grade bullets expand? I’ve never used them.
@@CircleBrewery yes, most match bullets expand (tipped match bullets like Sierra TMK and Hornady ELD-M expand really well)
The biggest concern (with any bullet but especially with tipped match bullets) is if you get jacket-core separation which is obviously not good. A good general rule of thumb is as long as your impact velocity (impact not muzzle velocity) is below 2400fps a tipped match bullet will perform quite well and they have been shown to expand reliably at velocities as low as 1300fps.
Overall they're completely unnecessary if you're hunting at any kind of moderate (or what many will call "ethical" ranges) but they perform wonderfully at longer ranges than most "standard" hunting bullets.
The only difference between a Hornady ELD-X and an ELD-M is that the ELD-M has a thinner jacket and will expand "well" at lower velocities than the ELD-X.
You push a tipped match bullet too fast and you WILL get jacket-core separation on impact, but at lower velocities they often perform better just because the jacket is thinner and it takes less resistance to cause the bullet to deform.
@@Kross8761 hornady has a podcast on this also. Without going back and watching it, match bullets don't expand reliably at lower velocities.
Definitely would like you to bring on one of those guys who run match-grade only. Would be a great discussion!
Maybe the guy from long range hunting group chanel.
@@damianwhatever9092 I agree, he is very knowledgeable, but he can be a little... pressing? Idk, sometimes he just seems a little too invested in Match bullets lol - and I use match bullets too.
@@marcmoore4115 he doesn't believe that they're the best in every category and at every range, he's just tired of the misinformation from fudds who say that *ONLY* "hunting" bullets can work for hunting.
He IS particularly invested in his position because he's a long range Hunter and the right match bullets will outperform everything else at long range.
I've even asked him about certain "match" bullets and his first question was "for what?" A match bullet will perform at most distances, but they only OUTperform most other bullets at long range specifically.
At ranges under 400yds (with most carteidges) a TTSX or CX is going to outperform almost everything else available, but due to their monolithic construction they need drive band's to not cause excessive pressure and those bands drive the BC down. Those bullets' legendary toughness is also their greatest weakness at longer range performance because the bullet is harder and tougher and it requires more velocity to cause expansion.
I'm a firm believer in the effectiveness of match bullets (when used correctly) for hunting, but my favorite bullet is the Barnes TTSX/LRX for anything under 400yds because I have almost zero meat contamination and it makes cleaning the animal so much simple to not have to hunt for small shards of copper and lead, but if I'm going on a hunt that has a likelihood of over 40-50% of me taking a longer shot I'll deal with the extra cleaning hassle for better bullet performance.
LRHG *can* come across as gruff or "pressing" (excellent choice of word there) mostly because he spends a ton of time refuting claims that match bullets are garbage when the claim is only based on "well it's not a 'hunting' bullet so it won't work" when he has mountains of proof showing that they work extremely well. It's irritation at people's constant stupidity and refusal to listen to actual data and going with their belief.
@@Kross8761 Well when you get dunked on all day for promoting hunting at stupid ranges you're probably going to be a dick. I think HE and other highly-skilled shooters can get away with it. Promoting it to the average hunter is retarded as the average hunter is NOT a good enough shot, even with modern optics/range-finders, etc. I find plenty of game every season that was shot by someone that THINKS they're good enough, but most aren't
@@Kross8761 Very well said.
I was using the 168gr ELD-M in my .308 at 2752fps. Performed great for me and the furthest I shot with them while hunting was a Warthog at 308m. Closest was a Gemsbok at about 50m, ran 20m and was dead by the time I could get there.
Didn't have time to load, so I'm now using Hornady Superformance 165gr SST's. Very impressed so far.
Shoot a fast cartridge, use a hunting bullet, only ethical ranges… for me, .270 at 3100fps out to 400 is my ethical limits. If its further away. Learn to stalk better.
I like your open mindedness about people taking headshots. We in South Africa are shoot mainly headshots and because we shoot a lot of animals most of us are very confident in taking these shots. Also a reason I use match or ballistic types bullets is because we don't want the bullet to pass through and wound an animal on the other side
My (personal) answer to Ryan's question of "do you wait for that 'ideal' shot opportunity? And if you don't get it, do you pass on the shot?" Is yes. I will wait for the perfect opportunity and I will (and have) passed multiple times when I didn't get it.
I prefer match bullet for the type of hunting and the animal's that I pursue (typically longer"ish" ranges with a precedence on absolutely perfect placement, and by longer"ish" I mean the farthest I've ever shot is a shade under 800yds and my shortest is easily 350)
My general rule of thumb (for my cartridge selection I own, this is VERY dependent on cartridge) is that Barnes LRX will get me out to about 500-ish yards with acceptable expansion, Hornady ELD-X will get me out to about 750-ish, and ELD-M will get me out to 1000 and still have the velocity required to initiate significant expansion, but ELD-M will typically "fail" if I use it under 200yds. So for my hunting distances that I personally encounter the Hornady ELD-M will reliably expand (and be able to stay together and penetrate adequately) across my entire distance or velocity range, AND it shoots extraordinarily well in my rifle and I can get sub ½MOA groups easily if I'm doing my part so I have the highest chance of putting my bullet EXACTLY where I want it.
I don't recommend match bullets for every Hunter and every scenario, but if you're intelligent and you are aware of your bullet's capabilities and potential weaknesses then there's absolutely nothing wrong with them if used properly.
I used a 168gr A-Max for moose hunting in my .308 Win. At 228 yards, the bullet went in through a rib, shredded both lungs, then through another rib when leaving. It also left a hole nearly 2 inches in diameter. The near 800lb moose only stumbled 14 yards then dropped.
I’ve been part of extensive testing using .308 ELDM on barriers such as the reinforced pillars of vehicles. It penetrates through (literally) every time. I have zero doubt that ELDM would consistently penetrate a deer or antelopes shoulder. And that’s why I’ve used it for hunting for a number of years now with great success on both deer and antelope from ranges of 50 to 470yds. It’s also marketed to the military and police for use on people if that tells anyone anything.
I will add that the caveat to the ELDM always penetrating was that I did consistently see core/jacket separation. One hole in, two going out. It’s again the argument of what an individual wants to see. I typically see animals dying extremely quickly when being shot with ELDM. The exit holes are nearly always tiny, likely from just a piece of core or jacket leaving the animals body. Which means that the energy from the round is being almost completely expended inside that animal. I’m not sure how match ammo would perform on larger game like moose or elk, I’d have to do a lot more texting before I’d feel comfortable using it on larger game than deer or antelope.
Close range shoulder shots on big Sambar deer is lights out -they penetrate. People who say they don't are kidding themselves. Any bullet will go through shoulder on any deer Inc. moose. (from a reasonable cartridge obviously). The problem comes from people aiming for the 'vitals' and expecting instant kills. Then, when they find that they don't always leave a nice blood trail, they decide on needing a passthrough (or they repeat what they've heard others say) The whole 'boiler room' stuff seems pretty stupid in the age of Good scopes and accurate bullets. Just take a High shoulder shot-its a pretty forgiving shot too. (too far forward you are necking it-too low its still lung or maybe heart, and too far back its lung/spine... Just don't go too high😀👍@@BDJans
Hornady will tell you that the front petals peeled off and the base continued on. I’ve seen it many times.
Great discussion. Im one of those kiwi lads who uses ELDM/A-Tip/TMK/EOL not exclusively but mostly. I think there are many different reasons for either way and do agree on some counts.
Here in NZ we dont have tags, so we think of passing up a shot as completely acceptable outcome. Maybe we are not under as much "pressure" to make the shot.
One thing I've never understood is the need to have a hole on both sides. I like to have an entry hole and then massive internal damage. Interesting topic, enjoyed it thoroughly.
I agree, they are petrified they won't have a blood trail, so they want a passthrough, which leads to a tracking job (sometimes/or most), which, in turn, requires a blood trail.
I can answer why someone would want a pass through, because that's what I want.
I agree with bowhunters that the basic method of killing an animal is to make a hole and let the blood out. Two holes = blood goes out faster.
I don't believe there's a magic bullet that can guarantee explosive deconstruction inside the chest cavity (maybe the bullet hits a shoulder blade before it gets there, maybe it hits a rib, maybe it hits both, maybe it hits nothing.) I *do* believe there's a bullet and velocity combination that can guarantee expansion and pass-through on a given size animal, no matter what it does or doesn't hit on the way through.
Is it a simplistic way to set priorities? Maybe. But I've heard too many stories about bullets grenading on the outside of a shoulder blade to take that chance.
Ryan, have you really seen the 127 grain LRX significantly expand up to 600 yards out of a 6.5 Creedmoor?
I am asking as I have seen many tests that indicate you shouldn’t get below 2.200 ft/s with this bullet. That would be 350 yards rather than the 600 you mentioned. Even with a 6.5 PRC that would be 420 yards, so not much more. Thx
Classic Barnes X Bullet expansion on game. The diameter and depth of the hollow determines how far back the petals peel and at what impact velocities. The minimum for expansion is generally about 1,800 fps.Jul 16, 2021
From Ron Spomer
Giving it 1800 fps at 680 (rough throw at Applied Ballistics for where I shoot)
I was also under the same impression would like to know more
@@sn1per194 Ron seems to be a nice guy, but I would caution to use him as a golden source. Too much of what he says is off the mark in my opinion.
At 1.800 you might get some expansion but nowhere near what a good bonded bullet like the Accubond will have.
There are some really good other channels that are testing bullet performance at different ranges and provide the impact speed. take a look at the very limited expansion you get even above 2k. Plus the guys use water which is basically a prefect medium for expansion.
Long range hunting group - you might want to look them up. They have some good video’s on here.
It would be amazing to see a ballistics gel test at 500 yards with both a hunter and match grade bullet
There are many different constructed match bullets just like many differently built bullets labeled with the word "hunting". Testing one side by side with one, doesnt really say much besides how that one particular bullet compared against that other particular bullet
Barbour creek has done some testing like that
The match bullet does what it always does and blows to pieces
@@Paul-q3m7k i would disagree. Like any expanding bullet there is an velocity window where they work. Push them too fast and they shed weight rapidly, get them at the right speed and they just expand, go too slow and they fail to expand. No different in that sense than any other expanding bullet, labelled for hunting or not.
ultimate reloaders shows that the eldm do ok in ballistic gel reguardless what these 2 "experts" say. is it better than a hunting bullet no but it will work. sometimes you have to use what you can find is what these guys dont understand. also they hated on the 270 only to find its better than the 3006 (shows how much they know)
Match ammo for hunting is for military use on human beings.
Hunting ammo is for hunting hogs, deer, etc. The nosler partition can't be bested for hunting purposes.
I will never shoot at any game animal over 300 yards because they deserve the utmost respect and a quick kill. The target loads are made for extreme accuracy with thin jackets. My Marine Scout Sniper platoons use the 175 grain Sierra Match bullets in the 7.62x 51 rounds with the m/40 a-5 custom built rifles
built in Quantico. These rifles will not be used if they can't shoot sub moa groups from a very controlled environment. All human tendencies are removed from the situation which gives a true reading of this weapon system. DON'T HUNT WILDLIFE WITH MATCH AMMO!
Semper Fi.
I have had nothing but good luck with berger VLD's at 100 yrds and out to 600 on everything from coyote to deer.
I’ve landed on bonded bullets for my .30-06. Terminal ascent and I am also fond of the Remington Scirocco bonded bullets. Very tempted to try these beloved copper solids though.
Dont
Now that Jimbo isn't here to moderate the #10MinuteTalks and cut off Mark's tangents, these videos are becoming #25to30MinuteTalks. 😂 😂😂 Jim and Mark always used to bicker like a married couple that had been married for 20+ years. My favorite example is the start of the 7mm PRC #10MinuteTalk. They sounded just like my mammy and pappy. 😅😅😅
😂 Jim will have to come back otherwise these 10 minute talks might get outta control ⏰ ⏰ ⏰
The problem is that this discussion is always oversimplified.
Any choice of suitable hinting bullet depends on caliber choice, target species, hunting situation/style and especially target distance.
"The xyz bullet is the best for hunting" is always going to be a stupid and ultimately empty statement.
Very interesting discussion guys and you nailed some good points. Specifically hunting in US vs (for example) Africa.
As a South African I grew up with head & neck shots because curse you if you waste any more meat than necessary! ;)
Dyker
That said, with age I hope I've grown wiser and there's no way I'll hunt the same today. Today I hunt in the bush with a 200gr ELD-X in 30-06 simply because I have all the options open to me without any compromise. The ELD-X is basically match grade so I can put it in the ear of an impala at 300m if the opportunity rises or hit a Blue Wildebeest quartering to at 100m full on the shoulder and still go all the through.
Simply put (IMHO): Accuracy is absolutely the most important and caliber or bullet weight will never outweigh shot placement. But having the piece of mind that the projectile can break through heavy bone, stay intact, and still do the job on a sub optimal shot is worth a lot.
TH-cam cut me off there...At "Dyker".To complete I added :
...I've hunted everything from dyker to massive Kudu bulls with a 243 because all I needed to do was break vertebrae/skull and precise accuracy was more important than grunt....
+1 on the ELD-X and its' precision capabilities. I used it on a hunt in South Africa earlier this year and the 178 gr 308 factory load was right on the button each time. Similarly in Denmark i have had very precise results out to 600m during range days. My rifle is a Savage MSR-10 with an 18" barrel.
Most modern hunting bullets these days have match-grade accuracy and BC. I agree that it boils down to what the user's intentions are.
This sounds like a bunch of fudd loar with guys who aren't very accurate shooters
I know right, shot placement is everything.
Maybe they just don't want to enter the 223 match bullet cult when there are other combinations that work well?
Last year I decided to test this for myself instead of listening to the internet echo chamber of “match bullet bad” and accepting that as fact. Used 135gr A tips and 123gr ELDM last year in my creedmoor and they hands down outperformed every “hunting” bullet Ive ever used, from 20 yards out to 320 yards on the 7 deer I took. I took every shot placement to really put them to the test- lungs, high shoulder, “vital V” neck, head, quartering to and away, and 2” in front of the leg. Every single one was a one shot drop, save the rear lung shot, that ran 40 yards and then tumbled arse over head. I’m a convert.
Edit: 123gr ELDM are what I have loaded now, I used factory hornady match with the 147gr eldm last season. Video of the terminal damage can be found on my channel, though YT restricted it to 18+
@@veteranironoutdoors8320Any reason to pick the ELDM over the A tip?
I shoot those 135 a tips out of my 6.5 prc at 3450 fps and they freaking destroy whatever is In its path. 5 bucks and a bobcat so far.
@@YoureSoVane price. A tips are double the cost of an eldm. But offer better BC’s and they delay expansion slightly so they would be better for quartering shots or larger bodied game. I would have had 0 qualms putting that 135gr A tip into an elk’s lungs/heart.
@@shitsngiggles8371 i have a 20” barrel on my creedmoor so I was “only” pushing it 2780. Still worked amazingly.
As a LE officer in the mountains in Colorado, I encounter a lot of injured deer and elk from being struck by cars. I carry a 308 precision rifle and our ammunition of choice is Hornady tap, 168 ELDM. Before we switched to Hornady, we had 168 Federal gold medal match.
I have lost count of how many animals I have shot with match ammunition, but it always seems to do the job.
Interesting fact, burger hunting bullets, have thinner jackets than their match bullets. I think their hunting bullets are nothing more than match bullets that say hunting on the box and people love them.
Their hunting bullets are either chemically bonded, or have an internal ring that holds the core in place.
Depends on if the match ammo is considered 'expanding' or not. Some states require expanding ammo in the same way some require straight-walled cartridges or minimum caliber/energy for certain game.
You said it really well. Exactly this point is something they should have brought up in the video. Most match bullets are not sold as expanding bullets. In my country the hunting regulation requires that we use expanding bullets on game (with some exceptions). If I tested particular match bullets in my gun to verify that they do expand it might be ok, but it would be a legal grey zone that I rather stay away from.
Shot a big body Manitoba whitetail with a 140 grain nosler RDF handload out of my 6.5 creedmoor at 196 yards.
Dropped like a stone, kicked twice and that was it. Neck shot, right under his chin.
Match bullets ado a pretty good job when predator hunting.
can you guys please do a comparison between the 7prc vs the 300wsm iv been hunting with a 308 for the past 5 years and iv been thinking of getting something a little more sexy the wife is being very generous in letting me purchase another rifle. so i was hopeing mark and ryan can help me decide between the two. please 🙏🏼
I’ve never seen a deer walk off a Core Lokt. People get way too ate up with projectiles and penetration and “power”. Good shot placement with reasonable distances is all that matters.
Sorry guys but who wants to eat lead? Love my Barnes or mono bullet.
.35 Rem...
I was somewhat lucky, and managed to develop two loads that shot to the same point of impact at 100m in my .308. The one was a 155gr Sierra Palma match bullet, the other a 150gr Rhino Solid Shank. I would take both into the field and use the one most appropriate to the shot that presented itself. With the match bullets I preferred to take high neck shots. Done right, it's spectacularly effective, and it's a relatively safe shot because in the species I used it on (Springbok and Impala), it's pretty much either dead or miss. However, I am weary of relying on a match bullet to achieve deep penetration at high impact velocities especially against tough and large animals. That's what the Rhino Solid Shanks excell at. And they put animals down with chest shots like no other bullet I have ever tried.
Here in Australia, match bullets with tips are the preferred choice for culling feral animals or kangaroos ( on license) as the animals are too thin to set up expansion on bullets such as ELD-X.
They’re great on large Sambar too. ELDM 168g out of my 308 👌
Some monolithic bullets are designed to open at much lower velocities than others, so it is important to choose the right bullet for the cartridge and situation to be encountered. Some Cavity Back copper bullets are designed for intermediate cartridges like 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel, and 300 Blackout and can open as low as 1400 fps. That dramatically increases the effective range of those cartridges. To give an example, with the 6.8 SPC a Cavity Back 105 or 120 grain bullet has an effective hunting range of about 400 yards. The Hornady 100 CX bullet, on the other hand, needs about 2000fps to open. According to Hornady's range/velocity carts, expansion occurs only at distances under 200 yards.
Over the years ive been presented with both shots and an accurate neck shot collect a black tail buck that was bedded in brush 30 06 severed the spine he fllopped. But i do preffer a monolithic in and out trough the boiler room. And i have seen deer shot right trough the heart still run 2 300 feet idk how but i can happen. Apon desecration the heart was eviscerated into 3 peices. Like ryan i wont take the sniper shots fron 800 1000 yards one im not shure i could and 2 the bullets i use will not expand at those distances. I keep everything with 400 and if i dont have a good rest ill just have to keep stacking.
Not all match bullets are created equal. There are certain bullets marketed by ammo companies on their LEO side of their websites, like the a-max and eld-m, that are listed with expansion velocities. There are a couple match bullets that are similar from other manufacturers. There are also match bullets that are not necessarily designed as such and are designed quite literaly to cut holes in paper and expansion is an afterthought.
The eld-m is designed shockingly similar to hornadys own SST bullet which is in fact designed for hunting. Ballistics gel tests, depending on caliber and projectile weight of course, show very similar terminal performance. Seemingly the only difference in the 6.5 grendel loading in particular is the canilure on the SST.
At shorter ranges, so long as the match bullet trends in the heavy for caliber range, I feel it can be used similarly to generic cup and core projectiles in the same weight classes. A caveat with this pertains to higher velocity cartridges within a bullet diameter tend to need more durable projectiles to be as reliable as possible. Calibers such as 308, 6.5 grendel, 6.5 creed/swede/260, and some of the lesser AR-15 chamberings, or simply the fact that most ARs, 15s or 10s, tend to have shorter barrels than their bolt action counterparts, go hand in hand with lower muzzle velocities and therefore lower initial impact velocities will lend to more reliable bullet performance with 'softer' projectiles when it comes to reliable penetration as they take advantage the lower expansion threshold. Whereas in faster for diameter cartidges this would be detrimental primarily at closer ranges.
The monolithic bullets that you mention in comparison work in a completely opposite direction as you clearly stated. Many monolithic projectiles have a low end velocity threshold of approximately 2,000 fps. Personally i like to stay at least 100-200 fps ABOVE manufacture stated velocity thresholds as a buffer for reliabilty. With his story of his 650 yard mule deer kill as an example, hornady lists the a-max on their old LEO page (unless it is the eld-m and im misremembering) as having a expansion threshold of ±1600 fps. Using hornadys ballistics calculator and a 168gr A-MAX at an initial muzzle velocity of 2700 fps, which is likely high unless he was in fact using a 24" barrel, retained velocity at 650 yards was only just barely over 1600 fps. It is very likely that bullet expansion, and therefore rapid energy transfer, was on the ragged edge of being present at all. In this instance, the match bullet with its low expansion threshold may have been the only reason that mule deer was successfully harvested at all as most projectiles, even those with similar expansion velocities, would not have been still carrying even that velocity at that range.
Ryan is, of course, right on the money with his range limit on the 6.5 creed Vor-tx LR. Barnes listed the vor-yx loading as reliable down to ±1800. Personally id stop that projectile at about 500 where it dips just below 2000, but thats still exceptionally long range for hunting scenarios and with a non-magnum short action chambering it is still immensely impressive.
Certain match bullets (the big ones being the amax/eldm, tmk, and sometimes the vld) are very effective and boringly reliable on game when you understand how and when to employ them. They are the exact same concept as old school prebonded bullets like the winchester silvertips used in 30-30s, 300 savage, and 303s for decades, but made in a more aerodynamic shape which extends the range. The good ones are just thin jacketed hollow points. Nothing more nothing less.
Just like older style bullets, push them too fast, (ie close range shots with a magnum) they’ll probably fail. Any soft hunting bullet will, not just match grade. This is why bonded bullets made there debut shortly after the magnum craze, as a solution to pushing soft bullets faster and getting bullet blow up. Match bullets work by an opposing concept, they extend your range via BC and not powder, thus reducing impact velocities, and reducing the need of a stout bullet and high velocities to initiate expansion to begin with.
When they impact at mild velocity they deform/fragment gradually. The slower the impact, the less they deform/fragment, and the deeper they penetrate.
Need to shoot a bigger animal? Slow them down. Its counter intuitive for people but once you understand how the function, you can keep them within their best use velocities windows, just like any other bullet. The heavier the bullet, the more mass it has there is to shed, the deeper it will penetrate vs a lighter projectile. Hence why heavy for caliber match bullets are optimal. They’re just a soft bullet option which is necessary for mild impact velocities if you want any sort of mechanical damage. People always equate this to only applicable to long range, but it’s also applicable to mild cartridge/rifle combinations just like it was utilized in the exampled 30-30 I mentioned above.
A modern combination would be for short barreled rifles (16-20”) in mild cartridges like 7-08, 6.5, 308; match bullets are a saving grace which keep these rifles lethal without limiting range and terminal effect with tough bullets whose efficacy would be at the bleeding edge from just the initial muzzle velocities produced.
If you have any need for a reduced barrel length (suppressors) these bullet options are a relevant option to consider. When your rifle/cartridge combo doesn’t even start with 2400-2600fps initial velocity, bullet blowup from muzzle to the max effective range of 1800-1600fps (depending on bullet) isn’t a concern. Keep impacts below 2400, and it’s going to kill what you hit. Emphatically at that. Impacts slightly above that, aim for something soft, like a neck so the bullet encounters less resistance and expands more gradually. Hitting at the bleeding edge of 1600-1800? Aim for a shoulder to increase resistance and aid in bullet expansion. It’s just understanding how the bullet design behaves in tissue. Not all match bullets are created equal. Research which have proven results and do not make assumptions. Realistically all you’d ever need are amax/ELDMs and TMKs and you could ignore the rest.
Websites like BallisticStudies, and numerous law enforcement and hunting forums have thousands of pages of data with recorded impact velocities, game weights, and pictures. Long Rang Hunting Group on TH-cam has many videos on the subject. There’s lots of data out there if you have the time and inclination to learn. If you don’t, stick to traditional hunting bullets in traditional barrel lengths, at traditional ranges, at high impact velocities and don’t worry about it. But if you fall into the category of “needing” a low velocity solution, you have options…
I hunt in South Texas where tracking can be a problem in dense scrub brush. Whatever happens, I want an exit would and a blood trail. I am transitioning to a new 270 and testing monolithic vs bonded bullets for accuracy. The winner gets hunted next season. Range max for me, 400 yards.
Great subject. Very interesting and definitely worth a deeper look. I think we all should thank the bullet manufacturers for making some pretty awesome hunting projectiles. There were days long ago when you shot the, deer, elk, moose or bear with what you had in the weapon at the time.
I have never used match ammo for hunting but have used the ELDX which is a pretty thin jacketed cup and core bullet. It worked great until it didn't. I shot a pronghorn at close range and it totally grenaded on the front shoulder and never made it into the vitals. Bonded only for me from now on. I use federal terminal ascent bullets now.
This is the exact point of using bonded or all cooper for hunting they always work at all ethical hunting ranges no matter what they encounter on the way in to the vitals !
@@dougkahler7152or dont shoot them on the shoulder. Avoid bone where possible things tend to work out better
We shot a lot of animals with match bullets 30+ years ago. While it wont be my first choice I would do it in a pinch without too many issues. Put it behind the shoulder and watch them "bang flop".
My go to bullet fot hunting is the Accubond range, it just gives that extra bit of insurance.
When the Maker of the Bullet says...... NOT FOR HUNTING..... that should tell you something! But people still do what they want cause Merica! that also does NOT mean smart idea!
hand loaded eldm in everything primarily the 162 and 180 eldm
My personal preference is Sierra Gameking projectiles. The best performance I've ever shot!
Had a bull elk hunt 3 years ago. Hunting was tough and the only shot i got was up a mountain hard quartering away at 290 yds. Put the 180 grain trophy copper from a 300wm behind the onside rib cage and put him down. Bullet found up the neck. On the offside of the vertebra. Wouldnt have taken the shot without a strong hunting bullet. Only bull we saw all week. Ive seen numerous eldx failures. 3 to be exact. Shoulder blowups and decent blood trails till the blood trail disappeared and animal lost. Had the user used a gmx or now a cx theyd have their animal.
Hornady 143 ELD-X and the 147 ELD-m in mt 6.5Cre have an almost same (1/2 off set) are predictable value.
We shoot Texas White tails at under 200 yards. I have found that the ELD-X does not have enough distant in body to perform. But the X does.
It also enables the neck head shot to be devastating. Even a FMJ would snap the neck or penetrate the skull and kill the animal.
My issue is that the ELD-X on Texas 90-120# deer does not have time to perform. The M will explode (except for a shoulder shot, but if you take a high shoulder it still takes out the central nervous system and drops it.
So. In limited ranges the M lets you have options on shot placement.
Talk more. Talk more... Talk more
I've seena few balistic gel test between the ELD-X & ELD-M and other bullets that are similar like SMK & the SGKj. I think that most people are going to be surprised at the results of expansion of the match bullets. Right or wrong the numbers don't lie. I hope you do the gel n water jug test with both ans show the results to us.
I recommend match ammo for hunting because it specializes in accuracy, that it more important than velocity or expansion. you need to know where your shot will land
I've used 6.5 Grendel for varmints for over 10 years. In following the online forums, many of the other users swear by Hornady Black ELD-M 123gr for boar and coyote, even deer. I use the ELD-M strictly as a target load, but there's no denying how effectively many use it on critters.
On the other hand, one of the most intensely effective projectiles in my varmint experience is the 106gr TMK. Defender Ammunition specifically markets their loading as a "do everything" for the Grendel. My other load is a 123SST loaded by Druid Hill Armory. That's what I consider a 'proper' deer/pig/coyote load.
Many of the ELD-M only camp swear the SST doesn't work. I've never had an SST fail to work when I put it in the correct spot.
It's interesting how the camps of thought seem to feed on themselves.
And what about human animals?? How do they behave on human flesh? And stopping power? For example a Sierra Matchking to eliminate a human?
Apples to apples- eldm to eldx same weight! Thinner jacket eldm gives multiple wound channels when it separates & tumbles. Eldx is just as explosive when it blows up in animal like the v-max does. Either way the critter is dead right meow!!!
See you next time when you talk about the 416 rem mag
Listen fellas...match bullet will DRT on high shoulder shots...CNS lights out...Hydraulic shock from the kinetic energy is what the match give you, dumping all the energy inside the animal instead of wasting energy exiting. Regardless of caliber, I would never shoot with a monolith unless the velocity is above 2000 FPS... with a match I would take it down to1400 FPS, any size game...
I use what works best in the firearm I'm using. It always makes me chuckle when the $24 budget ammo outshoots the $55 box. That isn't always the case but I like that you guys pointed that out. Personally shot placement is king. Really interesting about kneck and head shots.
While I agree you should always use the ammo your gun likes best, I have to mention that you should always match your ammo type to your game. Bonded bullets or mono will always hold together better and will always outperform frag style or soft point when used on heavy game with high speed ammo.
9/10 it’s probably just your rifle liking that particular bullet more. My .300 WM loves cheap 150g federal soft point but doesn’t shoot the best with 175g Hornady precision hunter. My 6.5 prc drives tacks with hornady 147g match
Call me crazy. Ryan reminds me of Jordan Peterson if he talked shooting and hunting. Lol
It's uncanny.
Ryan and do not know eachother and this is not a conspiracy.
- 308 w/130gr TTSX
- 30-06 w/168gr TTSX
- 6.5 PRC w/ 127gr LRX
NW Minnesota, generally 300 and in, usually 100...longer if you want to...
Red spiker vs 1.5mm drilled 168 match king with .308- pencilled through two shots. Dead on spot but poor result. Whitetail Buck next day same bullet 3mm drilled at 15m- made high shoulder soup bang flop. Penetrated no more than 8" no exit. Poor result also. Never again, even modified. 130 ttsx @3000 soup and exits, very effective fast and accurate. Match bullets never again
Often times as a young hunter I would use whatever I could get my hands on. If it would fit in my Tikka T3 300WSM I'd send it. I killed dozens and dozens of deer/antelope/elk and even a bear and Bison this way before I began to learn more about ammunition. I think attitude and accuracy have alot to do with it. I was trained to shoot by my dad who was a marine scout sniper and life long outdoorsman. Maybe I just had a knack of putting the bullet in the right place.
From Sprite/7 up to conditioner, a very interesting look at bullet selection. I load barnes personally, but am not opposed to match ammo. I think shot placement is more important than bullet selection. Very situational though, and a learning discussion it is.
Absolutely, there are strengths and weaknesses to both types of bullets, as long as they are used intelligently and within their capabilities they're both extremely effective.
Seems the slug construction argument is effected by the distance you are hunt, what you are hunting and what caliber you are shooting. A marginal caliber for an animal (say 223 on deer out to 250 yards), the monolithic bullet might be needed in order to get that slug into the boiler room. But a non marginal (say 30-06 on deer at 300 yards) then either slug will work fine.
In Sweden where I live it's illegal to hunt with match ammunition. I use nosler partition in 308w, federal fusion 30-06, norma oryx 6,5x55, and hornady sst 338wm. So bonded and fast expansion bullers. Depends what and where I Hunt.
I fully disagree with the theory of "full energy dump" into an animal. This is NOT are useful goal IMHO. I much prefer a bullet to hold together, expand, and fully penetrate, giving me an exit wound. For ethical hunting, my go-to bullet styles are Accubonds, Partitions, TTSX or TSX bullets. Old school bullets like Interlocks, Game Kings and Ballistic Tips are good bullets in many cases. However, I am not a fan of Berger or Match bullets for hunting.
The use of MATCH bullets to shoot deer is ILLEGAL in the UK, in that they are not classed as “expanding missiles”. Hunting bullets are designed to expand, and therefore fulfil the criteria of an “expanding missile”.
Covered by the ‘Deer Act’ of 1967, or thereabouts. It’s in the Deer Act, I forget the year the legislation was enacted.
I'd NEVER use a match bullet to hunt, but then I don't take shots at game where the cartridge is running out of gas. If you're taking 700yd shots at game, use a magnum, that's what they're for. Can't even begin to understand why anyone would want to walk a 6.5mm projectile out of a short-action case into an elk/etc at distances greater than 500yd, aside from wanting to take shots well outside their capabilities and hoping the higher BC's fill in their skill gap. Even if the match bullets do reliably expand at 1500fps and under (never seen it myself) why not just use more powder and make sure that bullet is impacting 500fps higher?
Idk, I'm not a proponent of ELR hunting. It's a great way to wound animals and never find them. Well, I find them every season, but it's game someone else shot in the leg/jaw/gut weeks ago. Most hunters are not skilled enough to go more than 50-100yd outside their caliber's max point blank, even with modern optics.
I'm sticking with the tried and true performance of the nosler partition until the very end (of legality). I'm hardly a fanboy of nosller, it is simply that i can put 5 that touch each other at 100yds outta a 1999 model 700 BDL ss chambered in 300 rum.These bullets have never let me down when I have done my job - and offered forgiveness the few times I haven't. It actually makes me kinda ill that soon I'll be forced to find a homogeneous alternative as I've never shot anything but bonded bullets out of this rifle. I'm not against these copper bullets, I just don't like having to fix something that isn't broken
I use hunting bullets mainly Hornady
Match ammo performs too unpredictably in the animal. It’s made for punching paper, not terminal ballistics in game. This is why LE snipers were urged 15yrs ago to quit using the old Fed. Gold Medal Match stuff for duty use.
I see and hear a lot of people talking about match bullets possibly exploding and not penetrating at high velocity. I would say it could happen but it my experience it never has happened. With my 6mm gt 108 Berger match and Eldms shooting around 3000 fps from the muzzle. I have shot deer and coyotes at 50 yards 100 yards and never had one explode. Pass throughs every time. The terminal results were devastating everytime. Has anyone had experience where the match bullet actually fragmented on impact and never made it into vitals?
I shot a 250 lb caribou at 200- 250 yards with a hornady 123 ELD-M 6.5 grendel out of an 18 inch ar-15 and that dude dropped on the spot didn't take on step it was like an off switch. The bullet went through both shoulders heart and lung and I found the separated jacket under the skin on the other side. So I'm sold on the match bullets being capable in the right hands.
American here- mixed takes. On hog, I put it in the brain box, i want bacon. Doesn't even move, but that's a careful shot. When culling herds, I'll take whatever opportunity there is
On deer, I don't want to take that shot cause I want a trophy on my wall. I'll go for the heart/lungs. My uncle love to hit the neck with his 270. Furthest a deer ever got was 3 steps. He's old and doesn't want to track...
When it comes to whitetail, exit wounds are underrated.
When hunting thick woods in the east and northeast an exit wound can be the difference between finding your deer and not finding it. It’s so thick in a lot of places they can bed down 50 yds from you and be extremely difficult to find.
I'm personally a monolithic guy. However, there really isn't any reason to use match bullets for hunting. There are so many bullets that are designed specifically for hunting, there is no shortage of options. For example, why use the ELDM, when you can use the ELDX?
I always use match ammo, I’d rather wait for the shot than take the chance of just wounding an animal. Hollow points work great, you have to know your limits…
Did I miss where he answers the question? I mean it isn't a trick question. You have had experience with both rounds. What yardage is considered for Match versus Hunting? Close range Hunting Ammo? Long Range across a canyon Match? Or not recommended. I swear this should have been a 10 minute video at max instead it is 30 minutes of wasted time?
The Nosler partition is the no-fail bullet that has been the standard for decades for most practical hunting ranges, especially for larger big game. Also IMO match bullets should never be used on larger big game with the larger bone structure. Our big game is just too precious to waste using the wrong bullet. I agree with Ryan, use hunting bullets.
My brother was using Nosler Accubond bullets to hunt Fallow deer here in Australia. They were only traveling 2600fps at the muzzle so by the time they went 200-250m there wasn’t enough velocity to expand them and he was pin holing the deer. Fine if he was spot on with shot placement but given the variables of angle, wind, poor rest ect ect, the accubonds were not no fail in his situation. If he could have pushed them faster I’m sure they would have been better for longer, but I wouldn’t consider 250m a long shot!
But on the reverse I have shot a large Rusa Stag with a Berger Classic hunter going 3125fps at 30m high shoulder trying to take out the spine and nerves, which I have had great success with. This poor fella just walked off. I dare say if I was 300m away, by the time I got to him he would have dropped but at 30m it was disturbing to see him still standing. The bullet did massive damage close to entry, went under the spine and blew a hole right to the other side but did not exit. Didn’t hit vitals.
I live on a farm in Africa and hunt regularly - I am currently using a .308 loaded eith 168gr ELD-M at 2750fps. I've taken a lot of Gemsbok and Wartho with this load and am very happy with it, because it's cheap (2x less per bullet than AccuBond, 3x less than Monolithic) and very effective - but if I go on a hunt elsewhere, I'll make sure to load up premium Bonded, A-Frame/Partition or Monolithic bullets. If I'm limited by time (i.e. hunting seasons or in this case time spent hunting elsewhere) I don't have the time to not take a shot because it's not standing perfectly for my liking... here at home, I can come back in an hour, tomorrow, next week, next month or next year, so I don't need to rush. I can get as close as I can every time and wait for the perfect shot every time.
So for that reason, I love the ELD-M, but if I had to choose just one, it'd probably be the AccuBond or Barnes TTSX.
I'm sorry you don't understand how bullets kill lol
Hey Ryan and Mark. I'm professional deer stalker in the Highlands and shoot hundreds of red and roe deer a year. Happy to talk about what we do and the bullets we use. Would be a great chat.
Little Crow Gunworks points out, a pass through shot collapses the lungs which will result in a quicker kill. The blood trail is much better with a pass through shot as well.
There is a time and a place for each type of projectile. Thick skin and heavy bone require tough bullets. In grizzly country I like mono metal projectiles also. Out in the wide open spaces high BC and ultra accurate loads that buck the wind can make the difference.
Having confidence regardless of which bullet you’re using is half the equation, gaining that confidence through practice is the other half.
I love these #10MinuteTalk episodes. Thanks for doing them.
You guys keep talking distance when you should be talking velocity. what is the minimum velocity that copper bullet needs to open and function properly?
I’ve always thought that 2000 ft./s was about the cut off for getting most hunting rounds to perform properly, is that not correct?
It's my opinion that conditioner is very important. I use it and use it often. Can soap or shampoo alone do the job?? Like match bullets for hunting, yes. However, the proper protocol will always be conditioner after shampoo. I have no dandruff, no itchy scalp and full head of hair at 34 with zero thinning. This could be purely genetics, but I bet it's the conditioner.
I would be very interested to know what anyone across the pond thinks about this mostly to understand their point of view because I do know in some countries , like England for example accuracy is of the utmost importance when hunting and we could always like you guys have mentioned learn a thing a two and vice versa
After finding random ballistic tips in my grind meat and losing entire antelope quarters due to them being peppered with lead bullet fragments, I have reluctantly decided to hunt only with copper bullets. ELD-Ms and AMAXs have been devastating on deer and antelope, but I don't want to take the chance of feeding lead- peppered game meat to my kids.
I basically hunt whitetail deer. I have 2 .308 win rifles that I use. One I have set up to shoot the 150gr Ameeican whitetail load. The other is set up to shoot 165gr full boar. I use the 165gr when I prefer a pass through shot. The 150gr I have never experienced a pass through shot, but the deer fell where they were shot.
Pretty sure 556 75 bthp and 77 grain otm .. Kinda think this is silly .. Got this same talk from a idiot friend who shots deer at 65 years with a bow and I'm underpowered .. Ppl are truly baffling
Used Match ammo in my 6.5 PRC for a couple years and it’s devastating on flesh. It actually makes a damn mess but it’ll kill the crap out of an animal. No opinions on that, these are facts. Started shooting the precision hunters eldx and they knock them in the dirt without the mess. Definitely a better hunting bullet
tl;dw “hunting” bullets give a greater number of scenarios in which penetration is sufficient, while “match” bullets allow both greater range and shooter confidence that the projectile will go EXACTLY where it is intended, at the cost of fewer situations in which an appropriate shot is possible. The range at which the scales tip is dependent on many factors including caliber, game, landscape, etc.
Would like to hear more about the modern smokeless powders, if Ryan is down we love to hear him talk about reloading so he’s probably got plenty of knowledge regarding burn rates and other details that make one powder different from another? I feel like I hear a lot about reloading but when it comes to powder it’s more like “pick one from the list and try it”, which is fine enough but the lists can be long. If anyone else is interested gimmie a thumbs up.
Use a sufficient chambering, it doesn’t matter. 6.5 Creedmor for whitetail? Match bullets are fine. You need to have a good bullet if you are using 5.56.
Ideally I want a bullet to give me an exit wound love the Nosler partition if the rifle I'm shooting shoots it well mostly under 200 yards have killed 99% of the deer I've killed under 100 and in the Big Brush in the South need a blood trail if a deer goes 100 yards in thick Pines or Cedars good blood trail makes the difference in recovering your game
In my experience. high BC, match bullets don’t have an advantage until 500 m or beyond and I simply just don’t shoot game animals at that distance.
I hunt for meat
We hunt every day when we don’t have to work
With guys who hunt constantly all year round, a lot of guys prefer diffent calibers bullets and shot placements. That’s the beauty!
I like head and neck shots, lungs shots, heart shots are great too. I don’t like to much meat damage. I haven’t shot at anything past 300 yards. In my life
I know guys who shoot 4 deers a week, and I know guys who shoot 4 deers a year. I take note of what to do from the guy who shoots 4 a week. I take note of what I shouldn’t be doing from the guy who shoots 4 a year.
Same with hogs , sheep and goats fish etc.
I’m my case rushing the shot, or jumping on the trigger is the most detrimental to my success especially after running into position or being mentally lazy
Never had a Hornady 123 SST fail on deer at 2500 fps out of my CVA pistol at 70 yards. One shot.
Have 2 of them and deer performance has been stellar
Hunting bullets for hunting.
If every shot were placed perfectly, we would never see a wounded animal run off, never to be seen again. Do your load development properly and a quality hunting can get you close enough to the accuracy of a good target bullet.
As a preference, I like monolithic bullets. I like Barnes bullets, but Hammer bullets are growing on me too.
Four important questions, game species, shot placement, cartridge, distance.
No gun or bullet guarantees the game will crumple on impact with a chest shot. People who think that always happen leave alot of dead dear behind. When you do need to track it's usually only the exit wound that leaves a blood trail.
I wasnt paying attention and used 6.5 match ammo last season and took 2 bucks and 2 hogs. One buck dropped in his tracks, the soul pig, did the same, and a big boar that went 50 yards. The other buck went a good ways but not the best shot but he did lay down and bleed out.
I think the only answer to the debate is..... it depends. Context is everything, dogma (at least when it comes to ammunition) is dangerous. Never has there been a topic where the following statement was more relevant, "Your mileage may vary".
10MinTalk.....must be an imperial v metric thing lol
I would be very nervous using match bullets in South Africa. Nosler accubonds all the way.