John Moses Browning made the 1911 to shoot hardball ammo and he extended his ghostly hand from beyond the grave to squeeze the bullets and keep them from expanding.
I was thinking about the same. Could it be the 1911 barrel? TaT should do a FS Glock and FS M&P test, and see what difference, if any, the rifling might make. And to be clear, my thought was about 1911 barrels, not J.M.B's. Ghost.
There is a reason I do not own a single Winchester HP round in any caliber.. Over the years I have seen more Winchester rounds fail to expand than all the other ammo brands combined. Winchester and Corbon are the two brands I would never carry for SD.
@@kennethferguson4283 I'm a little surprised by your statement. I use a variety of ammo, and have had almost no issues. Nothing that makes me think that any specific maker sells defective products. Nothing is 100% effective, firearm or ammo. I don't think I ever fired Corbon, but I would bet my family's lives on Winchester.
This makes zero sense, but this is why I appreciate so much you actually running these tests. Because making a "best guess" based on past results and expectations won't get us very far.
I've been to an autopsy where multiple shots with silvertip did NOT expand on the suspect. The final round into the brain DID expand. Like all these bullets, "it depends" on an infinite number of variables - clothing, tissue - fat vs muscle, ambient temperature,, shot placement, et cetera, et cetera, etcetera.......
Back in the 1980s, the 45 caliber silver tip Hollow point, according to Masad Ayoob, was the hardest hitting 45 out there, short of the boutique rounds. Expansion aside, getting hit with a 185 grain bullet, doing 1000 ft/sec, is still a lot of energy on target!
Would not have believed this without seeing it. Pretty much figured increased velocity would equal greater expansion. This just proves ballistics is just as much of an art as it is science.
I bought this stuff for my full size 1911 bedside gun (based off of an old .40sw silver tip video you made). I am definitely making a change. Thanks again for all you do for the gun community and for keeping these companies honest!!
Many years ago a visiting fellow cop gave me a bunch of 185 gr .45 Silvertips. This was the original loading. A bunch of us met at the range for some scheduled extra training (for comp time). Before we began I loaded up my SIG P220 with those Silvertips and from 25 yards shot a 3 shot cloverleaf, all holes touching. I loaded my pistol back up, packed up all my gear and got ready to go. The rangemaster asked why I was leaving. I pointed to the group. "You see that? It can only get worse. I know when to quit!" LOL. FWIW, I spent a LOT of time on the range on my own. But anyway, wild how they didn't work from the longer barrel. Goes against everything I've ever seen. Great stuff, as always!
As the great Paul Harrell says, "Hollow points are velocity based. The greater the velocity, the greater the expansion... up to a point." I think you just found that point, where the increased velocity resulted in no expansion
I wonder too, if it is the different barrels? Does the Glock have the polygonal rifling? Perhaps it squeezes the bullet open a bit more? I cannot see either having a massive twist rate difference, but that too could contribute. If you can get a Commander 1911 and a G-21 and see how they do with the ammo. Puzzling indeed.🤔
I can tell you from personal knowledge that my agency used glock 21, with Speer hollow points. They expanded fine. It must the rifling of the Glock or the make up of the ammunition.
I’m not an expert on physics, but maybe the extra speed from the longer barrel is just enough to cut a section of the denim and cause it to clog, while the shorter barrel is slow enough to tear and allow the hollow point to pass through? Might be a round worth a test through some more true to life medium, like a meat target. Can’t say I’ve ever seen a test like this before, definitely some interesting results!
Silvertip ammunition did not all have plated cases. Actually I never saw it with anything but plain brass cases in all calibers dating back to the 1980s. I still have a bunch of it that's that old in .32 ACP, .380, .38 Special 90 and 120 grain, and 10mm. All brass cases with aluminum jacketed bullets. Those loads often had core/jacket separation. Both bullet design and jacket material have changed since the early 2000s or so. Also .45 Colt. Forgot about that one for a moment. I believe all original Silvertip loads in all calibers had aluminum jackets. I carry new style 145 grain Silvertips in my 2 1/2" S&W 686. They had a pretty good reputation on the street in the '80s and '90s.
Yea, Very wierd that the longer barrel didn't open up for sure. What's really weird for me is my first .45ACP was my first handgun 4.6" barrel, and have never put anything through it that's a HP, just FMJ's. For me shot placement with "The Lords' Caliber" is my main concern.
Evan Marshall gave the advice, pick the load that shoots well out of your carry gun, and has a good reputation for performing, and then assume it will fail. Interesting test. Thanks T&T.
... I just don't understand everyone's need for magic bullets... fmj is all I've ever needed... but I'm just a old combat medic... what the hell would I know ... ?
Just went back to this one again because I sent the link to a friend. They EDC a G21 and believed this would be good carry ammo. Hopefully this video will get him to search for something better! I’m searching the videos now to see if you have run a recent test with the clothing barrier on two of the UW options that should be great in a short barrel 45acp. The two I’m hoping to see, especially in the G30, are: 45 ACP +P 185GR. EXTREME TERMINAL PERFORMANCE (XTP®) 45 ACP +P 135GR. XTREME DEFENDER
@antoniotula262 can't knock a Hi-Point! They just keep on running from what I've seen! I don't own one, but I could have bought five of them for what my XD45 cost!
@@chrislang5659 People joke about them, but it seems they actually work pretty well. I'm an XD fan also & would take an XD45 over pretty much anything.
That is downright odd. I'd like to see a Glock 21 vs a 3" 1911 just to see if it's the gun or the velocity. If it's the velocity then I'm guessing there's a time window for expansion that the faster round is passing by. Might be nice to see the exact same test except with no cloth.
It IS a time window, it's so fast that it expands while traveling through the future and contracts back to original specs as it slows down and re-enters the present.
You're going to have to retest, and flip the guns. A G21 full length, vs that 3.5 Colt you use occasionally. Is it twist rate of the rifling, less stable in the RI, or the higher speed making the cylindrical shape hollow point act like a cookie cutter? There was no denim clogged inside.
I've watched hundreds of ballistic gel tests on TH-cam at this point, and I've literally never seen the same hollow point bullet get less expansion from a long barrel than from a short one. This is one of the most interesting tests I've seen, and thanks SO much for doing the 3rd Glock 30 shot (After the second G30 shot, I was thinking "maaan, there's enough room there for him to do another test if he stops now, but I really want to see if the round expands on a good shot from the 30....") I have only a few even theoretical ideas for what could have happened, and these are all wild guesses, I've never heard any of this actually claimed: * - A different rifling pattern stabilized the bullet differently, and the extra spin (or reduction in spin?) aided in expansion * - The specific shape of the cavity caused an air bubble or something to form at the tip only at the 1911's velocity, which disrupted the Venturi effect * - @Zantar45's explanation. All seem equally plausible? I guess? I definitely wouldn't run this ammo, for the same reason I wouldn't use a computer if I saw evidence that Tron was real. If the way something works can only be explained by nonsense that I don't understand and shouldn't be possible, I'm out👋
Appreciate ya. I sure didn't like having to use up the space but it had to be done. I suppose any of those could be the case or just extreme coincidence between barrel lengths and general inconsistency.🤷♂️
Trapped air pocket seems viable to me. 40sw 155grn. Silvertips WERE the best short barrel offering on the market. Now they are downloaded; what gives with these ammo manufactures( main stream anyway, although Underwood has downloaded a couple 40sw loads as well) Is it to make 9mm. more appealing?
@@almaadams3631 Possibly to save money by decreasing cost. A few grains of powder subtracted from hundreds of thousands of rounds eventually adds up, and over time equals reduced costs for the manufacturer and increased profits.
@robertcong-leton3275 I am convinced it is part of the anti 40sw. conspiracy. Make it less appealing hoping more of the sheep will shmuck out and buy 9mm. 2 of my M&P 2.0 40sw. can be swapped out to 357sig or 9mm.( KKM barrels).M&P 2.0 frames can fit 40sw. slide and barrel or 9mm. (yes, same ejectors locking blocks) Gee, why would the industry want you to buy one pistol that can fire 3 cartridges with a barrel swap( and mags for 9mm.
This might sound stupid but maybe because it's such a wide projectile, the faster velocity is cavitating the gel as it passes through and is causing a gap between the leading edge of the projectile and the gel. The gel can't resist enough to cause expansion on the faster projectile. Just a guess
That makes some sense to me and my rudimentary knowledge of physics and applied forces. I'd also like to add I can't come up with a reason nor would have thought of your explanation bit, makes sense.
I had this stuff 30+ years ago for home defence. I remember shooting it into water jugs with no material in front. ( before FBI came up with clothing barrier test) I may still have that bullet but it did well as I remember. I think the jacket was polished aluminum if memory serves. My gun was an early Springfield 1911 from the 90s.
Same here. Out of a full magazine of 185gr Silvertips into in a series of gallon water jugs on a table at about 20 feet. Only 3 shattered the jug and blew water everywhere. The other 4 just went through and left leaking jugs. Had a final 3 that I shot straight down into sand. One flattened out beautifully. The other 2 could have been fmj. The sand scored them but didn't particularly flatten the edges. I was confused. Regular 230 gr hardball would always shatter gallon water jugs somewhat and spray some water. Went back to hardball for years. Technology has changed greatly, I now carry 230gr HST. It seems to work reliably, but any handgun is your best choice until you can reach a rifle or shotgun.
Depends on the gun. I had a little revolver that wouldn’t shoot for shit until I got some 110gn Silvertip 38 Specials then it shot decent groups and to POA
This further reinforces my belief that hollow point ammo, at least in some calibers, is not consistent enough. I would likely trust using one of my LEE flat nose bullet molds: 1. 200gr round/flat nose. 2. 230gr truncated cone. 3. 200gr semi wad cutter. (All 45acp).
@TortillaChip521 blunt or "flat points" have shown some merit in ballistics tests. Furthermore, the best (recommended by experienced hunting handgun experts) are flat points/round flat/semi wad cutters. The Late Great E. Kieth designed some of his own largely for that purpose.
I have noticed a very interesting trend. A lot if not most of the high-performance rounds you test work far better in the shorter barrels at slower velocities than they are supposed to. Like in this test, the longer barrel at higher velocity fails, but when they are going slower, they work as they should. Why? That is the 50K question. If you look back at a bunch of other rounds in various calibers, you tested previously, this trend seems to be a thing.
I would suggest that the faster bullets are "cookie cutting" the clothing and thereby filling the cavity on the bullet making it act like ball ammo. The slower rounds may have more effectively pushed the fibers out of the way, rather than cutting them and thereby allowing the cavity to open properly upon hitting the gel. Examination of the entrance holes in the denim may support or deny this theory.
I shot 3 145 grain Silver Tips rounds for my.357 magnum, i was very disappointed by the performance out of a 4 inch revolver. They failed to expand, could have just been a bad batch, i don't know. I didn't have gel to shoot in though.I still have one of the rounds.I'm not a fan of new Ammo, When it comes to the .357, i want SJHP from Remington. Anyway, great video, thanks.
I used the .357 magnum 145 grain Silvertip for deer hunting in the mid-nineties. I gave it up because the bullets expanded well but did not penetrate enough. I shot one big buck 6 times at ranges from 55 to 10 yards and no bullets went in over 6". I switched to handloads with Hornady XTP 158 gr. slugs and found the ideal hunting projectile. I still have 10 boxes of Silvertips from 1994.
I got a bunch of this during the mid 00's. Still have a lot, but mostly moved onto PMC Starfire 230gr. Glad to know the Silvertips are good too. I think Silvertips in general have always been underrated.
Back in the day, the military and the FBI used to test ammo using pig carcasses. Messy but more analogous to a human body than "gel". Another great video, bro!
Thank you for all your tests. I would like to see you conduct all your .45 tests out of one of the popular shorty 3.3 inch barrel pistols: - S&W Shield 45 (1st gen or M.2) or - Springfield XDs (1st gen or Mod 2) Again, both those brands have 3.3 inch barrels. Thanks.
So use the shorter barrel for hunting werewolves 🐺? Odd results but makes me think commander size/4.25in might be a happy medium. Velocity was higher than I expected but recoil didnt look bad at all. I may buy/if on sale for the Commander to check out. Interesting video. Good video!👍🙏
I think the extra velocity from the 1911 had just enough force to shove the denim down into the hollowpoint cavity whereas the g30 bullett was moving slow enough it was able to shed the denim. Im sure if you had cotton t shirt the 1911 would have done fine.multiple layers of denim IS the absolute worst case scenario. I wouldnt hesitate to use silvertip 45 in the summer... but i would be very cautious when it gets colder and people wear sweat shirts and coats.
Heavier bullets will expand better in a shorter barrel. Lower grain will be better in longer barrel. For short best would be 200+p , 230. Also heavier bullet makes up for having lower velocity due to shorter barrel.
All I can think is that on the higher velocity shots, the higher velocity enabled a cleaner cookie cutter action on the denim, clogging the hollow point, while maybe on the G30, the lower velocity pushed through the denim instead of filling up the hollow point. I'm guessing you would get full expansion on both without the clothing barrier. Except when you examine the rounds there isn't any clothing wadded in the 5" barrel rounds!
My "guess" is that somewhere between the velocity of those shots is where they get thru the clothing barrier differently enough to make THE difference. We know that clothing often clogs a hollow point and turns it into a common round-nose with regard to its performance in various media. Nobody has studied it in detail but I think there's more to learn on that subject.
Ive got a RIA 1911 in 9mm, only bc i enjoy shooting a 1911 occasionally. Not sure why the reason for this weirdness, but ill add it to the list if the reasons my glocks and berettas are the only GTW guns i would trust...could be a fluke but im not willing to trust it. Great stuff as always my brotha. Solid info.
Could be these: Bullety tip filled and did not create expansion force. Not most likely. The other two could relate to twist rate and/or depth of rifling cuts? I shot the old Sivertips through a Detonic's Combat Master with a 3.5" brl which always expanded to .570-.575". My gov't 1911 didn't expand reliably, but did not fail 100% of the time. So, who knows? Good testing anyway. Keep 'em coming and I'll keep watching 'em.
Speer Gold Dot 200gr +P JHP Federal HST 124gr Those are my go too’s for .45AARP but then I carried full size pistols… cause I don’t care if I print. Moved away from .45acp due to poor barrier penetration and low capacity for the vast majority of pistols. FN tactical being the exception.
Maybe try a commander. I would use them in my defender size. If you get expansion in a commander I would use them too. I am a .45 guy. After all of your testing I pretty much use ball, because they all fall. Thanks for all this information.
Definitely an odd result! Need to revisit this test with a G41 for the long barrel and a 3” 1911. If you get the same results maybe try a bare gel test just to see if the extra velocity out of the longer barrel is packing the cloth into the cavity tighter and it just cant clear it out. Maybe the shorter barrel with less velocity doesn’t pack so tight into the hollow point so it’s able to clear it. Would be an interesting test just to find out what might be going on.
That one is a bit of a conundrum. Normally it 5” barrels that are needed to push the velocity needed for HP expansion in 45 ACP … I can’t recall seeing these results! I will be sticking with my Underwood 230gr +P for now! Thanks for the video
That's a weird one! My first thought was maybe the twist rate was different but from limited info available it looks like they're the same. Some 1911's have left hand twist (dont know about rock island) but that shouldn't matter in theory. So...I got nothin! Great test as always
Some bullets are made of softer or harder material tailored to the velocity and required penetration, I would expect a “softer” bullet to fragment if it was moving faster than what it was built for though? Maybe moving just fast enough to cut a clean/full plug out of the barrier instead of a slower bullet pushing through(that would come down to hollow point depth/width/shape too). I don’t have an answer but I’m curious!
This is a wild guess, but could the rotation of the bullet make a difference? I am assuming that the longer barrel would put more twist on the bullet and that may have effected the expantion. Like I said this is just a wild guess.
@@timrobinson6573True, but if you had two barrels with the same twist rate, but one was longer than the other, how would that affect the spinn on the projectile, or would it at all?
I’ve seen other tests where .45 expands fine at a given velocity but expands very poorly at higher velocity. Military Arms Channel did one a while ago where that happened.
A 5" barrel .45ACP is too big for me to carry concealed anyway. So very rare and unusual for a defensive round to perform better out of a shorter barrel. I'll take it.
I think it's just 2 much clothing sometimes clogging the hollow point. Cool video though. I've shot a doe with a .45 colt silvertip, and it got great expansion.
Another great test. I love the sound of that echo through those beautiful hills! Hey, I was thinking during the strange results you were getting, do you think a different barrel twist would do that?
This was very odd indeed. I can think of no explanation for the wide difference between the two. 🤔 As for my own personal experience, I'm an old school caster and hand loader. Haven't bought factory ammo in decades. In the 45 Auto, I cast a 200gr RNFP or a 200gr SWC in what's equal to a 20:1 lead/tin bullet. Hard enough to not lead the bore, but soft enough to expand in hogs, coyote, and feral dogs I encounter on my place out in the woods. I've never used gel blocks, but I get enough critters that don't belong here to shoot. 😅
45 super can be fired from HK USP w/o modification. Buffalo bore 185 grain will throw you for a loop when tested in ballistic gel. You will see what i mean.
Good video. Those two pistols have different rifling. I wonder if that changes things. The original Silvertip pistol bullets had an aluminum jackets. They were changed to copper and plated. I think the 32 ACP still has the aluminum jacket.
I just picked up the Springfield XDM-Elite compact in .45acp with the 3.8" barrel over the father's day weekend sale from PSA, looks like this ammo would work great in this pistol.
My thought when you too the second shot with the 5” was… what are the chances that they found the perfect threshold of all the criteria for 4” concealed pistols… as you continued and my thought became reality. Outstanding brother! Thank you!👍🏼
My best guess for why the faster bullets failed to expand would be that maybe that extra velocity caused them to clog, whereas the slower rounds pierced through without clogging because the cloth had slightly more time to give way. Nothing was clogged in the weighing/measuring segment, so perhaps the cloth was shed earlier in the gel. Just a wild guess.
Wonder if there's a difference in barrel twist making an RPM difference? Just reaching for something. In any event, the unexpanded ones still ended up 0.45" with a flat nose effectively. Lots of mid-size calibers can barely manage that.
I'd like to see how this stuff would perform out of a 4.25" Commander. Your results are perplexing for sure. Thank you for all your hard work and great info!
Rifling style and twist rate have a dramatic affect on terminal ballistics. I would like to see these silver tips in the G30 and a G21. Then barrel length would be only variable.
True amazing performance from the shorty. Now you have my curiosity piqued about the Commander length 🤔 My thought on the difference is perhaps the higher velocity caused it to destabilize just enough to not hit the gel at the same angle. Or perhaps the rotational speeds were different. Either way, great test, Tools 🎉 if I had a G30 I would use these. Maybe Commander, too.
You've should look into this 185gr 9mm from Seismic Ammo. They call it "QuakeMakerTM +M 9mm NATO". There are no videos on YT that actually have a meaningful display of the ammo, pretty much clips of people shooting it, or just talking about it (no jelly, no chrono). It's possibly a good option for suppressors, due to its lower velocity. You'd have a unique test in your library :)
Now I wanna see what the silver tips would do out of a carbine length barrel…your test showed the extra velocity was bad but what if you had 100-200 extra fps out of a 16” barrel?
The only diffference i can see is the rifling on the two guns.Maybe the conventional rifling ,by the way it imprints on the bullets it prohibits them from expanding? That's a head scratcher ,for sure.
45ACP has always been an "iffy" caliber when it comes to ammo performance. It's just about best to run heavy grain FMJ's to get any type of consistency. Who needs 45ACP when you have .40cal and 10mm with Buffalo Bore and/or Underwood loaded in them. I would be curious how Buffalo Bore and Underwood load 45 ACP. Great test Tools
I wonder if it's because the different rifling on the glock? I don't know if that model or current models still have that weird rifling that you can't shoot lead out of, But I remember used to they shed you away from shooting lead ammo. (Cast)??? It's the only explanation I can think of. Thanks for the video
I may be mis-remembering, but seems to me the old Silvertip ammo was also plain brass cased and loaded to maximum pressure/velocity. Not +P, but it was definitely full power stuff. It was good defensive ammo in its day, but I think modern bullets like Federal's HST, Speer's Gold Dot, and Winchester's Ranger-T are better.
I think the reason the Glock is expanding is because of the different rifling. The Glock has polygonal rifling which is possibly deforming the projectile slightly and helping it expand upon impact.
John Moses Browning made the 1911 to shoot hardball ammo and he extended his ghostly hand from beyond the grave to squeeze the bullets and keep them from expanding.
😲😲😲
I was thinking about the same. Could it be the 1911 barrel? TaT should do a FS Glock and FS M&P test, and see what difference, if any, the rifling might make.
And to be clear, my thought was about 1911 barrels, not J.M.B's. Ghost.
I agree weird! I want to simply run my 230 round nose! But good job Tools! All you can do is try bother!
There is a reason I do not own a single Winchester HP round in any caliber.. Over the years I have seen more Winchester rounds fail to expand than all the other ammo brands combined. Winchester and Corbon are the two brands I would never carry for SD.
@@kennethferguson4283 I'm a little surprised by your statement. I use a variety of ammo, and have had almost no issues. Nothing that makes me think that any specific maker sells defective products.
Nothing is 100% effective, firearm or ammo. I don't think I ever fired Corbon, but I would bet my family's lives on Winchester.
This makes zero sense, but this is why I appreciate so much you actually running these tests. Because making a "best guess" based on past results and expectations won't get us very far.
😎👊
That's crazy results, I would never guessed. Thanks for always giving us honest results!
Very crazy stuff.
I've been to an autopsy where multiple shots with silvertip did NOT expand on the suspect. The final round into the brain DID expand. Like all these bullets, "it depends" on an infinite number of variables - clothing, tissue - fat vs muscle, ambient temperature,, shot placement, et cetera, et cetera, etcetera.......
Back in the 1980s, the 45 caliber silver tip Hollow point, according to Masad Ayoob, was the hardest hitting 45 out there, short of the boutique rounds. Expansion aside, getting hit with a 185 grain bullet, doing 1000 ft/sec, is still a lot of energy on target!
I'd rather have an IPhone than a rotary telephone with a cord.
Would not have believed this without seeing it. Pretty much figured increased velocity would equal greater expansion. This just proves ballistics is just as much of an art as it is science.
I bought this stuff for my full size 1911 bedside gun (based off of an old .40sw silver tip video you made). I am definitely making a change. Thanks again for all you do for the gun community and for keeping these companies honest!!
In .45acp for security jobs or personal carry, ccw I use Federal HST 230gr +P. It's a high vel, high KE level load.
Many years ago a visiting fellow cop gave me a bunch of 185 gr .45 Silvertips. This was the original loading. A bunch of us met at the range for some scheduled extra training (for comp time). Before we began I loaded up my SIG P220 with those Silvertips and from 25 yards shot a 3 shot cloverleaf, all holes touching. I loaded my pistol back up, packed up all my gear and got ready to go. The rangemaster asked why I was leaving. I pointed to the group. "You see that? It can only get worse. I know when to quit!" LOL. FWIW, I spent a LOT of time on the range on my own.
But anyway, wild how they didn't work from the longer barrel. Goes against everything I've ever seen. Great stuff, as always!
As the great Paul Harrell says, "Hollow points are velocity based. The greater the velocity, the greater the expansion... up to a point." I think you just found that point, where the increased velocity resulted in no expansion
😎👊
Paul Harrell, the patron saint of GunTube.
I wouldn't know how to interpret it in terms of the to a point thing but interesting
I wonder too, if it is the different barrels? Does the Glock have the polygonal rifling? Perhaps it squeezes the bullet open a bit more? I cannot see either having a massive twist rate difference, but that too could contribute. If you can get a Commander 1911 and a G-21 and see how they do with the ammo. Puzzling indeed.🤔
I always thought he was talking about the projectile fragmenting instead of expanding.
I have never been a fan of Winchester pistol ammo and this just confirms it like many other tests. Thanks for doing this Tools.
I can tell you from personal knowledge that my agency used glock 21, with Speer hollow points. They expanded fine.
It must the rifling of the Glock or the make up of the ammunition.
Glocks have polyganal rifling, which speeds up the bullet a lot more. Kahr pistol demonstration proved this
I’m not an expert on physics, but maybe the extra speed from the longer barrel is just enough to cut a section of the denim and cause it to clog, while the shorter barrel is slow enough to tear and allow the hollow point to pass through? Might be a round worth a test through some more true to life medium, like a meat target. Can’t say I’ve ever seen a test like this before, definitely some interesting results!
Might be it.
My thoughts exactly. You beat me to it !
I've tested silver tips before. They plug with fabric and keep on goin'.
Agreed - Life is not ballistic gel. Meat & bone … right ?
@@ToolsandTargets Try it again out of the longer barrel with no denim and see if they expand, Can't hurt.
That's the best guess yet in my opinion, I think it definitely had something to do with the cloth.
Silvertip ammunition did not all have plated cases. Actually I never saw it with anything but plain brass cases in all calibers dating back to the 1980s. I still have a bunch of it that's that old in .32 ACP, .380, .38 Special 90 and 120 grain, and 10mm. All brass cases with aluminum jacketed bullets. Those loads often had core/jacket separation. Both bullet design and jacket material have changed since the early 2000s or so. Also .45 Colt. Forgot about that one for a moment. I believe all original Silvertip loads in all calibers had aluminum jackets. I carry new style 145 grain Silvertips in my 2 1/2" S&W 686. They had a pretty good reputation on the street in the '80s and '90s.
Yea, Very wierd that the longer barrel didn't open up for sure. What's really weird for me is my first .45ACP was my first handgun 4.6" barrel, and have never put anything through it that's a HP, just FMJ's. For me shot placement with "The Lords' Caliber" is my main concern.
Yeah, still a big ol hole.
To me, this is your most interesting test yet. Unexplainable that the bullets didn’t expand at higher velocity
I have a magazine loaded with Silvertips in my Encom MP45 . Yep , that's a blast from the past !
I never buy any ammo without Tool's recommendations, Tool's is the best ammo testin human on the entire planet!. 🇺🇲👍🏾👍🏻🇺🇲👍🏾👍🏻🇺🇲
Appreciate ya, brother!😎👊
Amen to that!
A-Men to that!
Evan Marshall gave the advice, pick the load that shoots well out of your carry gun, and has a good reputation for performing, and then assume it will fail. Interesting test. Thanks T&T.
... I just don't understand everyone's need for magic bullets... fmj is all I've ever needed... but I'm just a old combat medic... what the hell would I know ... ?
Not a lot.
Why would you even be watching this then? The crayon eating videos are on tiktok
Just went back to this one again because I sent the link to a friend. They EDC a G21 and believed this would be good carry ammo. Hopefully this video will get him to search for something better!
I’m searching the videos now to see if you have run a recent test with the clothing barrier on two of the UW options that should be great in a short barrel 45acp. The two I’m hoping to see, especially in the G30, are:
45 ACP +P 185GR. EXTREME TERMINAL PERFORMANCE (XTP®)
45 ACP +P 135GR. XTREME DEFENDER
Happy Father's Day to all the patriot dads out there.
Appreciate ya, brother!😎👊
What about the normal dads?
@@guaporeturns9472 If "normal dads" ain't patriots, we're in for some hard times before sanity reigns again.
Yes they can be very good. I had a hi point 45 years ago it would run great with sliver tips and group very well. In that hi point.
😎👊
I'm guessing with the money saved on the pistol allowed you to get some Gucci ammo!😅❤❤❤
@@chrislang5659😂😂😂
@antoniotula262 can't knock a Hi-Point! They just keep on running from what I've seen! I don't own one, but I could have bought five of them for what my XD45 cost!
@@chrislang5659 People joke about them, but it seems they actually work pretty well. I'm an XD fan also & would take an XD45 over pretty much anything.
That is downright odd. I'd like to see a Glock 21 vs a 3" 1911 just to see if it's the gun or the velocity. If it's the velocity then I'm guessing there's a time window for expansion that the faster round is passing by. Might be nice to see the exact same test except with no cloth.
Gonna have to do a little more with this stuff for sure.
That is exactly what I was thinking.
Agreed. I’d be tempted to test tow different length Glock barrels
It IS a time window, it's so fast that it expands while traveling through the future and contracts back to original specs as it slows down and re-enters the present.
You're going to have to retest, and flip the guns. A G21 full length, vs that 3.5 Colt you use occasionally.
Is it twist rate of the rifling, less stable in the RI, or the higher speed making the cylindrical shape hollow point act like a cookie cutter? There was no denim clogged inside.
I've watched hundreds of ballistic gel tests on TH-cam at this point, and I've literally never seen the same hollow point bullet get less expansion from a long barrel than from a short one. This is one of the most interesting tests I've seen, and thanks SO much for doing the 3rd Glock 30 shot (After the second G30 shot, I was thinking "maaan, there's enough room there for him to do another test if he stops now, but I really want to see if the round expands on a good shot from the 30....")
I have only a few even theoretical ideas for what could have happened, and these are all wild guesses, I've never heard any of this actually claimed:
* - A different rifling pattern stabilized the bullet differently, and the extra spin (or reduction in spin?) aided in expansion
* - The specific shape of the cavity caused an air bubble or something to form at the tip only at the 1911's velocity, which disrupted the Venturi effect
* - @Zantar45's explanation.
All seem equally plausible? I guess? I definitely wouldn't run this ammo, for the same reason I wouldn't use a computer if I saw evidence that Tron was real. If the way something works can only be explained by nonsense that I don't understand and shouldn't be possible, I'm out👋
Appreciate ya. I sure didn't like having to use up the space but it had to be done. I suppose any of those could be the case or just extreme coincidence between barrel lengths and general inconsistency.🤷♂️
Trapped air pocket seems viable to me.
40sw 155grn. Silvertips WERE the best short barrel offering on the market. Now they are downloaded; what gives with these ammo manufactures( main stream anyway, although Underwood has downloaded a couple 40sw loads as well)
Is it to make 9mm. more appealing?
The G30 is spinning the bullet at a higher rpm causing greater expansion even at lower forward speed.
@@almaadams3631 Possibly to save money by decreasing cost. A few grains of powder subtracted from hundreds of thousands of rounds eventually adds up, and over time equals reduced costs for the manufacturer and increased profits.
@robertcong-leton3275 I am convinced it is part of the anti 40sw. conspiracy.
Make it less appealing hoping more of the sheep will shmuck out and buy 9mm.
2 of my M&P 2.0 40sw. can be swapped out to 357sig or 9mm.( KKM barrels).M&P 2.0 frames can fit 40sw. slide and barrel or 9mm. (yes, same ejectors locking blocks)
Gee, why would the industry want you to buy one pistol that can fire 3 cartridges with a barrel swap( and mags for 9mm.
This might sound stupid but maybe because it's such a wide projectile, the faster velocity is cavitating the gel as it passes through and is causing a gap between the leading edge of the projectile and the gel. The gel can't resist enough to cause expansion on the faster projectile. Just a guess
🤷♂️
That makes some sense to me and my rudimentary knowledge of physics and applied forces. I'd also like to add I can't come up with a reason nor would have thought of your explanation bit, makes sense.
Thats kind of what I was wondering.
But 44mag and 45 colt silver tip have expanded for me and there faster. Idk?
Valid hypothesis, for certain.
Tools, you need to buy $100K slow-mo camera to verify 🍻
Super weird. Tools must have run this test on Opposite Day 🤷♂️
Beautiful gel disruption, I think its the glock polygonal rifling that is the difference we see between the two. Thanks Double T!l!
Thank you sir.😎👊
I had this stuff 30+ years ago for home defence. I remember shooting it into water jugs with no material in front. ( before FBI came up with clothing barrier test) I may still have that bullet but it did well as I remember. I think the jacket was polished aluminum if memory serves. My gun was an early Springfield 1911 from the 90s.
Same here. Out of a full magazine of 185gr Silvertips into in a series of gallon water jugs on a table at about 20 feet. Only 3 shattered the jug and blew water everywhere. The other 4 just went through and left leaking jugs. Had a final 3 that I shot straight down into sand. One flattened out beautifully. The other 2 could have been fmj. The sand scored them but didn't particularly flatten the edges. I was confused. Regular 230 gr hardball would always shatter gallon water jugs somewhat and spray some water. Went back to hardball for years. Technology has changed greatly, I now carry 230gr HST. It seems to work reliably, but any handgun is your best choice until you can reach a rifle or shotgun.
Depends on the gun. I had a little revolver that wouldn’t shoot for shit until I got some 110gn Silvertip 38 Specials then it shot decent groups and to POA
This further reinforces my belief that hollow point ammo, at least in some calibers, is not consistent enough.
I would likely trust using one of my LEE flat nose bullet molds: 1. 200gr round/flat nose.
2. 230gr truncated cone.
3. 200gr semi wad cutter.
(All 45acp).
I think lighter hollow points of 150-165gr are okay.
You’re worried about hollow points not reliably expanding, so your solution is to use bullets that will reliably never expand?
@TortillaChip521 blunt or "flat points" have shown some merit in ballistics tests. Furthermore, the best (recommended by experienced hunting handgun experts) are flat points/round flat/semi wad cutters. The Late Great E. Kieth designed some of his own largely for that purpose.
I have noticed a very interesting trend. A lot if not most of the high-performance rounds you test work far better in the shorter barrels at slower velocities than they are supposed to. Like in this test, the longer barrel at higher velocity fails, but when they are going slower, they work as they should. Why? That is the 50K question. If you look back at a bunch of other rounds in various calibers, you tested previously, this trend seems to be a thing.
I would suggest that the faster bullets are "cookie cutting" the clothing and thereby filling the cavity on the bullet making it act like ball ammo. The slower rounds may have more effectively pushed the fibers out of the way, rather than cutting them and thereby allowing the cavity to open properly upon hitting the gel. Examination of the entrance holes in the denim may support or deny this theory.
Same thing I was thinking
Interesting test. The G30 does it again. I think the failure on the RIA is projectile stabilization from the barrel.
Very possible.
Thank you for all the work. Getting my Vector into working order and I appreciate the 45 tests
😎👊
I shot 3 145 grain Silver Tips rounds for my.357 magnum, i was very disappointed by the performance out of a 4 inch revolver. They failed to expand, could have just been a bad batch, i don't know. I didn't have gel to shoot in though.I still have one of the rounds.I'm not a fan of new Ammo, When it comes to the .357, i want SJHP from Remington. Anyway, great video, thanks.
I used the .357 magnum 145 grain Silvertip for deer hunting in the mid-nineties. I gave it up because the bullets expanded well but did not penetrate enough. I shot one big buck 6 times at ranges from 55 to 10 yards and no bullets went in over 6". I switched to handloads with Hornady XTP 158 gr. slugs and found the ideal hunting projectile. I still have 10 boxes of Silvertips from 1994.
@MrTruckerf You hunted with hollow points...from a pistol?! 😅 Roll it around awhile, you'll spot the flaw in your reasoning.
I got a bunch of this during the mid 00's. Still have a lot, but mostly moved onto PMC Starfire 230gr. Glad to know the Silvertips are good too. I think Silvertips in general have always been underrated.
They have been pretty good from most of what I've tested.
Back in the day, the military and the FBI used to test ammo using pig carcasses. Messy but more analogous to a human body than "gel". Another great video, bro!
Thank you sir.😎👊
different barrel rifling and or twist rate is my best guess, strange but its still a 45 caliber bullet none the less
Thank you for all your tests.
I would like to see you conduct all your .45 tests out of one of the popular shorty 3.3 inch barrel pistols:
- S&W Shield 45 (1st gen or M.2)
or
- Springfield XDs (1st gen or Mod 2)
Again, both those brands have 3.3 inch barrels.
Thanks.
They must be watching your channel and picking up their game a little. Good work from you Sir.
So use the shorter barrel for hunting werewolves 🐺? Odd results but makes me think commander size/4.25in might be a happy medium. Velocity was higher than I expected but recoil didnt look bad at all. I may buy/if on sale for the Commander to check out. Interesting video. Good video!👍🙏
Back in the 1980s, the 45 caliber silver tip Hollow point, was the hardest hitting 45 out there, short of the boutique rounds
I think the extra velocity from the 1911 had just enough force to shove the denim down into the hollowpoint cavity whereas the g30 bullett was moving slow enough it was able to shed the denim. Im sure if you had cotton t shirt the 1911 would have done fine.multiple layers of denim IS the absolute worst case scenario. I wouldnt hesitate to use silvertip 45 in the summer... but i would be very cautious when it gets colder and people wear sweat shirts and coats.
Heavier bullets will expand better in a shorter barrel. Lower grain will be better in longer barrel. For short best would be 200+p , 230. Also heavier bullet makes up for having lower velocity due to shorter barrel.
Great vid Tools!! Thanks.....I think the moral of this story is" If you want to use this ammo get a G30 and call it a day".
Yep 😎👊
😂🤣😂
You couldn't give me one!
The _Glock_ polygonal barrel seals better and deforms the bullet slightly, starting the opening process _before_ the round hits the target.
All I can think is that on the higher velocity shots, the higher velocity enabled a cleaner cookie cutter action on the denim, clogging the hollow point, while maybe on the G30, the lower velocity pushed through the denim instead of filling up the hollow point. I'm guessing you would get full expansion on both without the clothing barrier. Except when you examine the rounds there isn't any clothing wadded in the 5" barrel rounds!
For short barrels:DPX 160gr all copper
For 5": Speer Gold Dot 200gr +P, it gives 10mm ftlbs energy.
That was a crazy test with crazy results, thanks brother
Yes it was.
Darn fascinating test thanks Tools!
😎👊
Great video brother 🫡
My "guess" is that somewhere between the velocity of those shots is where they get thru the clothing barrier differently enough to make THE difference. We know that clothing often clogs a hollow point and turns it into a common round-nose with regard to its performance in various media. Nobody has studied it in detail but I think there's more to learn on that subject.
Turns it into a flat-nose, not round-nose. They behave differently.
Without the doubt my go to channel to see results of ammo I can find and shoot
As always, thank you for the awesome video! 🎉
Appreciate that, my friend!😎👊
Ive got a RIA 1911 in 9mm, only bc i enjoy shooting a 1911 occasionally. Not sure why the reason for this weirdness, but ill add it to the list if the reasons my glocks and berettas are the only GTW guns i would trust...could be a fluke but im not willing to trust it. Great stuff as always my brotha. Solid info.
Could be these: Bullety tip filled and did not create expansion force. Not most likely. The other two could relate to twist rate and/or depth of rifling cuts? I shot the old Sivertips through a Detonic's Combat Master with a 3.5" brl which always expanded to .570-.575". My gov't 1911 didn't expand reliably, but did not fail 100% of the time. So, who knows? Good testing anyway. Keep 'em coming and I'll keep watching 'em.
Speer Gold Dot 200gr +P JHP
Federal HST 124gr
Those are my go too’s for .45AARP but then I carried full size pistols… cause I don’t care if I print.
Moved away from .45acp due to poor barrier penetration and low capacity for the vast majority of pistols. FN tactical being the exception.
Maybe try a commander. I would use them in my defender size. If you get expansion in a commander I would use them too. I am a .45 guy. After all of your testing I pretty much use ball, because they all fall. Thanks for all this information.
Can't figure that out. Thanks for testing.
Me either 🤷♂️
Definitely an odd result! Need to revisit this test with a G41 for the long barrel and a 3” 1911. If you get the same results maybe try a bare gel test just to see if the extra velocity out of the longer barrel is packing the cloth into the cavity tighter and it just cant clear it out. Maybe the shorter barrel with less velocity doesn’t pack so tight into the hollow point so it’s able to clear it. Would be an interesting test just to find out what might be going on.
What’s the barrel twist rate? Think maybe one has more causing easier expansion?
Love your channel man!! Good work!
I’d wonder if the twist rate on the 1911 is slower.
Possibly
That one is a bit of a conundrum. Normally it 5” barrels that are needed to push the velocity needed for HP expansion in 45 ACP … I can’t recall seeing these results! I will be sticking with my Underwood 230gr +P for now! Thanks for the video
That's a weird one! My first thought was maybe the twist rate was different but from limited info available it looks like they're the same. Some 1911's have left hand twist (dont know about rock island) but that shouldn't matter in theory. So...I got nothin! Great test as always
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Some bullets are made of softer or harder material tailored to the velocity and required penetration, I would expect a “softer” bullet to fragment if it was moving faster than what it was built for though? Maybe moving just fast enough to cut a clean/full plug out of the barrier instead of a slower bullet pushing through(that would come down to hollow point depth/width/shape too). I don’t have an answer but I’m curious!
This is a wild guess, but could the rotation of the bullet make a difference? I am assuming that the longer barrel would put more twist on the bullet and that may have effected the expantion. Like I said this is just a wild guess.
Longer barrels don't put more or less twist on a projectile. The twist rate of the barrel determines that.
@@timrobinson6573True, but if you had two barrels with the same twist rate, but one was longer than the other, how would that affect the spinn on the projectile, or would it at all?
I’ve seen other tests where .45 expands fine at a given velocity but expands very poorly at higher velocity. Military Arms Channel did one a while ago where that happened.
Imo it’s the higher twist rate on the Glock causing it to expand even though the bullet is moving slower.
Maybe the Glock polygonal rifling helped to disrupt the jacketing and aid in the expansion from the G30?
A 5" barrel .45ACP is too big for me to carry concealed anyway. So very rare and unusual for a defensive round to perform better out of a shorter barrel. I'll take it.
I think it's just 2 much clothing sometimes clogging the hollow point. Cool video though. I've shot a doe with a .45 colt silvertip, and it got great expansion.
Another great test. I love the sound of that echo through those beautiful hills! Hey, I was thinking during the strange results you were getting, do you think a different barrel twist would do that?
Thank you sir. Your guess is as good as mine.🤷♂️
This was very odd indeed. I can think of no explanation for the wide difference between the two. 🤔
As for my own personal experience, I'm an old school caster and hand loader. Haven't bought factory ammo in decades. In the 45 Auto, I cast a 200gr RNFP or a 200gr SWC in what's equal to a 20:1 lead/tin bullet. Hard enough to not lead the bore, but soft enough to expand in hogs, coyote, and feral dogs I encounter on my place out in the woods. I've never used gel blocks, but I get enough critters that don't belong here to shoot. 😅
45 super can be fired from HK USP w/o modification. Buffalo bore 185 grain will throw you for a loop when tested in ballistic gel. You will see what i mean.
This looks like good stuff for my short-barrel and my revolver.
Mhmm
Just bought a gen5 G30, this is exactly what I needed. Thank you!
Good video.
Those two pistols have different rifling. I wonder if that changes things.
The original Silvertip pistol bullets had an aluminum jackets. They were changed to copper and plated. I think the 32 ACP still has the aluminum jacket.
I just picked up the Springfield XDM-Elite compact in .45acp with the 3.8" barrel over the father's day weekend sale from PSA, looks like this ammo would work great in this pistol.
My thought when you too the second shot with the 5” was… what are the chances that they found the perfect threshold of all the criteria for 4” concealed pistols… as you continued and my thought became reality. Outstanding brother! Thank you!👍🏼
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Maybe glocks polygonal barrel had something to do with it vs the 1911 conventional barrel?
My best guess for why the faster bullets failed to expand would be that maybe that extra velocity caused them to clog, whereas the slower rounds pierced through without clogging because the cloth had slightly more time to give way. Nothing was clogged in the weighing/measuring segment, so perhaps the cloth was shed earlier in the gel. Just a wild guess.
Possible 😎
Wonder if there's a difference in barrel twist making an RPM difference? Just reaching for something.
In any event, the unexpanded ones still ended up 0.45" with a flat nose effectively. Lots of mid-size calibers can barely manage that.
Once again, the indication of consistent quality manufacture is ES and SD, and this did excellent/outstanding.
😎👊
I'd like to see how this stuff would perform out of a 4.25" Commander. Your results are perplexing for sure. Thank you for all your hard work and great info!
Rifling style and twist rate have a dramatic affect on terminal ballistics.
I would like to see these silver tips in the G30 and a G21. Then barrel length would be only variable.
Polygonal rifling vs lands and grooves rifling maybe?
Mine are old silvertips, jacket separation on impact, the new ones has better performance, no jacket separation
Maybe the barrel tolerances and different styles of rifling? Who knows
True amazing performance from the shorty. Now you have my curiosity piqued about the Commander length 🤔 My thought on the difference is perhaps the higher velocity caused it to destabilize just enough to not hit the gel at the same angle. Or perhaps the rotational speeds were different.
Either way, great test, Tools 🎉 if I had a G30 I would use these. Maybe Commander, too.
Wow! I never would have predicted that the hollow points from the shorter barrel would have the greater expansion. That is a puzzler.
You've should look into this 185gr 9mm from Seismic Ammo. They call it "QuakeMakerTM +M 9mm NATO". There are no videos on YT that actually have a meaningful display of the ammo, pretty much clips of people shooting it, or just talking about it (no jelly, no chrono). It's possibly a good option for suppressors, due to its lower velocity. You'd have a unique test in your library :)
Now I wanna see what the silver tips would do out of a carbine length barrel…your test showed the extra velocity was bad but what if you had 100-200 extra fps out of a 16” barrel?
The only diffference i can see is the rifling on the two guns.Maybe the conventional rifling ,by the way it imprints on the bullets it prohibits them from expanding? That's a head scratcher ,for sure.
I’ve been around a long, long time and I don’t believe I’ve ever seen faster velocities resulting in less expansion. Strange, very strange.
45ACP has always been an "iffy" caliber when it comes to ammo performance. It's just about best to run heavy grain FMJ's to get any type of consistency. Who needs 45ACP when you have .40cal and 10mm with Buffalo Bore and/or Underwood loaded in them. I would be curious how Buffalo Bore and Underwood load 45 ACP. Great test Tools
Thank you sir.😎👊
I wonder if it's because the different rifling on the glock? I don't know if that model or current models still have that weird rifling that you can't shoot lead out of, But I remember used to they shed you away from shooting lead ammo. (Cast)???
It's the only explanation I can think of.
Thanks for the video
I may be mis-remembering, but seems to me the old Silvertip ammo was also plain brass cased and loaded to maximum pressure/velocity. Not +P, but it was definitely full power stuff. It was good defensive ammo in its day, but I think modern bullets like Federal's HST, Speer's Gold Dot, and Winchester's Ranger-T are better.
Your channel is the best testing channel I've seen. You keep it consistent and fair for every ammo you test.
Appreciate that!😎👊
I think the reason the Glock is expanding is because of the different rifling. The Glock has polygonal rifling which is possibly deforming the projectile slightly and helping it expand upon impact.
Polygonal rifling does NOT deform bullets...conventional rifling puts more grooves and rifling marks in projectiles than Polygonal...
Looks like i found my self defense ammo for my Magnum Research USS1911. Thank you for doing the research
Something tells me that you and I would’ve had fun, if we met in my younger days.
Thanks for the info. I subscribed a few months ago.
Appreciate that!😎👊
Looks great through the shorty. Do a silvertip vs hst shorty shoot off.
I wonder if the polygonal rifling of the Glock vs the conventional rifling of the 1911 has something to do with this ???? interesting results
Could be.🤷♂️