I'm in my 60's if you think about it for 30 + years these companies have been ripping me off with this junk. before youtube we depended on ads in outdoor and gun magazines and the testing done by those same magazines who depended on those ad revenues to stay in business. I'm guessing there were guys like you doing fair and honest testing but they had no way to have there voices heard. keep doing what your doing and Merry Christmas to you.
Thank you for the test, partner. Pretty much reinforces my opinion that unless it's a premium bullet, the 40 isn't particularly useful with the 180s. On the flip side, most 155-165 grain loads do well, even if it's not a "top shelf" load. Hope you and yours have a very Merry Christmas!
the energy differences between most big name brands 40 sw in 180gr vs 165 gr is absolutely disgusting imo. most 180s barely even crack 400 ft lbs, whereas plenty of 155/165s are pushing 450+ and some well over 480-500+
Interesting. The WWB 9mm 147 seemed to do good and the Remington WB in 38 +P is good stuff too. Looks like they don't have the recipe quite right in 40. Good stuff
Hard to believe that the 147 JHP 9 mm showed any expansion. Evidently the ammo makers put in some extra effort into the R&D of the 9 mm bullets while the 180 grain JHP .40 S&W are an afterthought.
I'm pretty surprised with these results. The 40 is usually a great performer in any ammo series. I'll stick with HST or some higher end stuff. Thanks for the video!
@@rsbreeze No it doesn't, with the right ammo it outperforms 9mm & 45acp. Police got the highest one shot stops with 40s&w right behind 357mag, but too many limp-wrist wimps joined law enforcement & couldn't handle it so PDs switched to 9mm.
Both in 9mm did well enough to be trusted (Winchester a bit better in my opinion), but these forties are definitely disappointing. Sorry these rounds ruined your future tests, but I appreciate you trying these regardless.
In a full size Glock, that ammo should be hitting 1050-1075 fps. But even if it was going that fast, I don't think either one of those loads would open up like they are supposed to.
Thanks for your test and sharing. 20 and 30 years ago, I had problems with Remington rifle ammo, but Winchester seemed to perform much better, both on whitetails. With the way these both performed in 180 grain .40, FMJ would do about as well.
I feel any .40S&W load is better than any 9 Minimal load. HOWEVER, I would just as soon load my faithful old Smith in .40S&W with FPFMJ rounds in the heavier bullet weights than the stuff you were kind enough to test for us. The .40S&W "sweet spot", when it comes to true defensive bullets, seems to be in the 135 to 165grn range with my personal preference being 155grn. If I were to go with a 185grn load for personal defense, I'd have to break out a pistol in .45ACP. I must say though, that I'm more convinced than ever that the various major (best known/recognized) ammunition manufacturers are downloading all handgun ammo regardless of caliber even some of, if not all, the once mighty magnum calibers. Thanks for yet another excellent video and The Lovely Bride and I wish you and yours a Very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! Speaking of which, don't forget those turnip greens and black-eyed peas.
Well, both ammo’s have stuck out. Game over. I was wondering about those HP’s in the standard white boxes. Was thinking exactly what happened in the test. Not worth the HP price difference. Thanks for the 100% spot on testing and commentary. Very interesting. I shoot jugs of water with those and some steel. Be safe. ⭐️🇺🇸⭐️🇺🇸
I had bought some winchester white 40 s&w yrs ago for my first ccw. They were hollow point and cheap so i thought why not. Decided to test them out on some expired turkey, hog head, and brisket. Was very disappointed, the entire box of 50 only 4 expanded a moderate amount. The rest just pushed the hollow to an oval shape and tumbled. Watching these videos and testing myself I've decided HST, Critical Duty, and Gold Dot are my go to for edc for more common off the shelf ammo. Lehigh, underwood, and Buffalo bore for less common.
Had high hopes for these “budget” rounds. Very disappointing as I’ve always liked the 40 cal. Thanks for the jelly test Tools, and have a Merry Christmas!
Hey man, idk if you take any requests, but I'd like to see any 9mm pcc at 100 yards hollow point in gel. I want to see if they'll expand at 100 yards. Ive looked it up and can't find a shred of information. Maybe try something premium and something budget friendly as far as ammo goes. But I wanna know if that extra velocity will allow the rounds to be at the speed they need to for expansion at 100 yards. Thanks again man, love your channel. Been a subscriber for years.
Never miss a video. Best ballistic gel tests on TH-cam. No bs atraight to the point thank you. I would love to see a video of black hills 5.56 62gr dual performance and drt 223 79 grain elite performance. A buddy of mine is a big hunter and swears by that drt round love to see how that stacks up to your traditional hollow point. Thanks for all the great content
Nice test Tools you absolutely rock Man!!! I’m surprised to see the .40 did so terrible. After watching some of your older vids last week I did a 9mm 115 white box JHP test and they performed pretty good. Only 11” of penetration but decent .58 caliber expansion… I know they make bigger and more powerful calibers than 9mm but it just seems that most loads chambered in “Nina” work better🤔💭
Pitifull results Tools. This is getting to be like going to the grocery store, higher prices for less quantity. Manufactures, load the round to its potential and make sure it performs the way it should or don't make it at all. Merry Christmas Tools. Be vigilant and always be safe my friend.
I appreciate the lab radar as I’m probably the only one who wants to know the internal and external ballistics of a bullet throughout the effective range of it. Even for defense, we’ve seen justified 40+ yd scenarios. Most are close range, but never know. Train accordingly.
Thanks for doing all these 40 tests as that is what I carry and every manufacturer has made this round the red headed step child. Great video as always!
so often you have proved not all hp ammunition is equal. although I rarely buy factory ammunition your honest tests all me to not waste my money reload ing those bullets. like you I don't want failure bullets. thank you so much for your tests. Papa wishing you well 😊
These tests never cease to impress me. When I was younger, I would never have though it possible that a slower round would penetrate farther than a faster round. Bullets do weird things.
Thanks for testing these. I have no experience with the Remington load in 40 S&W, but I am familiar with the Winchester load and have tested it out of a Glock 23 in clear ballistics gel using the FBI thick clothing protocol. It got 15.75 " of penetration and expanded to 0.71" at 983 FPS. To me, that's more than acceptable performance. I'm just an amateur bullet tester and don't have videos and probably never will; guys like you do such a good job of covering the subject. Occasionally, i come across a test like this that contradicts my own testing of a particular load and I wonder what the heck? Based on your results, I would never carry them. Based on mine, I would if I could not get Golden Sabers or HSTs or Gold Dots. I think I read on a forum that some Police departments used these to good effect while they were issuing the .40. Makes me wonder what has changed.
I’ve tested the wwb in my G-22 in meat targets and it did really well. Pork loin and pork ribs watermelon middle then ribs n loin on back. Expanded little over 600 thousand. And kept jacket. I never tested umc. I don’t do gel tests meat n bones. I’d try them again in a different target.
These tests are all set up identical to compare rounds against other rounds. These things did absolutely horrible compared to nearly every other .40S&W round I have tested. I don't need to shoot Sunday dinner to know they are trash.
I am surprised as i have tested both through a springfield xds 3.3 and they both peal back completely covering the base . But thats why you have to check you loads . I have tested hst and ranger as well with great results. The one load that has completely sucked for me is critical defense 40s&w that supposedly works through short barrels.
I would assume that Remington is using a faster powder, hence the harsher recoil impulse, while having lower velocity. Nosler jhps are my go to for "budget" stockplie loading. Accurate as can be and opens through denim. For serious use/carry, loading HSTs for sure....definitely the gold standard.
WWB is the only ammo I regularly see that has bad rounds. Bad primers I dont know but sometimes those bullets just dont shoot in all sorts of guns and they look fine on inspection. Been that way for my 25 years experience of shooting at the range.
This was a big surprise to me. I haven't tried the UMC JHP, but I have shot both 115 and 147 WWB in 9mm and in water jugs, both rounds expanded very well. The 147s had some odd, lop-sided expansion in one round, but it still expanded to at least .425 to .450 in the poorest performing round. They definitely dropped the ball on these .40s for sure! Maybe the bullets were designed for 10mm back in the good ol days of HOT 10mms, but it sure seems odd for both companies to fail the same way.... This just goes to show how valuable good testing like this is for every round. It is clearly a mistake to believe that if one round does well in one caliber, then it should perform equally well in another caliber like you might think. Thanks, Tools for doing these eye opening tests. Who woulda thunk it, that both companies would sell such poor performers! These look like them green box Sierras in 9mm from the ammo crunch days a couple of years ago.
I still think 40 is a more potent round than 9mm.. it all just comes down to ammo choice.. a 165 grain HST in 40 still opens up like twice as much as a 9mm HST or gold dot.. out of all the personal tests i have done that 165 grain HST opened up bigger than anything.. even 10mm HST & some 45 ACP loads & 9mm gold dots & HST's.. every caliber has ammo that doesn't work like it should i wouldn't hold that against the caliber but hold it against these companies for not loading the ammo right with good projectiles.. and every once in awhile you will find a budget option that does work and thats awesome when you can but thats not always gonna be the case so the high end stuff should still always be your 1st choice
Better than nothing. If you get them cheap enough, then use that stuff for functioning and reliability testing. I thought surly that U.M.C would do ok.
I was expecting it to perform as good or better than the 9mm versions. These shouldn't be any more expensive than their FMJ offerings as it's little more than range or training ammo.
You haven’t done tests with Norma’s Safeguard ammunition before have you? They are more of a traditional JHP, not their MHP. I’m seeing some boxes of 50 for around $20 right now, so I’m sure it’s probably not the best defensive ammunition. Anyways thanks for doing what you do. You and the great Paul Harrell are the only ones I watch for actual, non-biased, ballistics tests. 👊
I have a Taurus G2C .40 s&w, I'd love to know what performed in it, right now it's loaded with 165 gr Federal Punch. My wife has and old s&w model 411 in 40 s&w and that old gun shoots anything and accurately.
What a hot mess. I was going ask for a short barrel test but like you said, there is no need. I have a box of the white box I bought several years ago for like $15 at Wally World. I was carrying them, not anymore. They're range ammo now. I was gonna try a box of the UMC because good JHPs are high as heck and slim pickins. I'd run flat nose before running those. Sad because the 9mm wasn't that bad. I'd run the 9mm if that's all I had.
I mean... a hole in somebody is a hole in somebody. And while I know it's frustrating as can be in your gel blocks, I'd almost be willing to take a bit of that side travel inside of a bad guy. But with that much penetration as those were getting, it makes it a lot more dangerous to things behind or beside the bad guy. Really revealing test on this one, Tools. Sorry for your brand new blocks, but considering how bad these rounds were, it's really good to know that they don't work as they should. Particularly when they're in the range of better ammunition prices.
I have not read other comments but I have to wonder if something is going on with the barrel of your Glock 22. It seems far too coincidental for both bullets to spin off target like that. Especially since Remington is a Vista Outdoors company using vista outdoors bullets, and the Winchester use’s Winchester/Olin bullets. In other words, they use different bullets. I would say that this warrants another test, maybe using an FMJ RN or FP bullet from that Glock. Actually my first thought was that I was wondering if something was off with that particular batch of ballistic gel. Maybe that sounds silly, but again, it’s just too much of a coincidence that both brands of ammo with their respective bullets performed almost exactly the same, irregularly.
You can tell the Remington didn't expand but the wound channel on the Winchester looked like they expanded but they didn't lol thats weird.. at least I haven't bought any of that stuff in 40
i enjoy your videos. when it comes to these bullets it really doesn't matter about performance. if you shoot someone center mass with either bullet the person is going to have a very bad day. many people are killed with a 22.
Some of these HP aren't meant for expansion, some are intended for accuracy. I carry GD or hornady CD you're more assured to get better performance for the purpose of defense.
I would say they'd be good for target practice, but given the fact that the meplat probably isn't close enough as far as shape and form to create any real uniformity the higher price just isn't justified in no matter how i look at it lol.
They went "bang" and would have stopped a threat. There is better, more consistently expanding ammo out there (for a price), but this punched holes in the gel.
Awesome video as always. Thank you for putting in the work for all of us. Do you have a video testing Winchester defender elite in 38+p? How do we go about sending you stuff to test? Thanks again and have a wonderful Christmas.
Shocked with the wwb, I just shot one in water jugs a few days ago and it even fragmented. Have you thought about about trying some of these fails in organic gel?
I know one thing arms core 22 long Riffle is nothing but garbage i just tried a box of 50 out in my tx22 and had 10 duds out of 50 some were loaded light others were supercharged thanks for the video when 40 cal looks that bad in A gel test it's getting Pitiful
I refuse to buy umc ever again. The rounds I got were so smokey and 1 round out of each magazine failed to eject. I don't think it was my tool because it has eaten every other round I've ever thrown at it without issue.
Looks like its plinking ammo, good test / bad results. Glad to see a video since its been a few days and I was hoping you was ok. Have a Merry Christmas
Bullet failure ! This is why the law enforcement agencies which still use the .40 S&W (but many are dropping it in favor of 9 mm) are using the lighter weight 155-165 grain bullets. Those lighter bullets at higher velocity have better expansion. The 180s are too slow to expand. Thanks for another excellent test.
Wow, that's way worse than I expected. If you haven't already, can you test some MagTech ammo in the various calibers? I use it fairly often for .357 mag and .44 magnum plinking ammo and they always seem considerably warmer than other brands. I'm curious how their defensive ammo is since it's usually on the more affordable side than not.
Somebody else tested some Magtech 180 grain .40 on here and their tests were pretty pathetic, too. The penetration was on the shallow side, not really too bad,, but the nose cavity filled up with denim in the denim test. No expansion at all.
The "budget" 40s saw that nice clean block and then those "snappy" (insert eyeroll here) became just plain spiteful. 😢 Thanks for vid and getting the word out on these! 👍
As always a good, informative video. These rounds basically performed as an fmj round. I can understand your disappointment in them as a self defense round because of the non expansion and over penetration but I don't think it a total loss. I thought even with the lack of expansion the wound channels weren't that bad. I don't even have a 40 cal but my brother does. His is also a glock but a more compact one. I think with the penetration these rounds wouldnt be bad for woods carry for self defense against big mean animals, then again fmj would be better for that as well as cheaper. Bottom line is I wouldn't spend money on these unless that's all that was available but if I already had some laying around they surely wouldn't go to waste. I think tests like these have some bearing on why certain gov agencies are going back to 9mm
You can't really compare that stuff to 9mm though.. a 165 grain HST opens up like 3× the size of a 9mm HST so 40 with the right ammo will still give you an up side over 9mm but they all have ups and downs.. it's all about your ammo choice
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Support this gentleman guys, he helps our community a ton with his research and testing
Thank you sir.😎👊
Helps me for sure special when my old lady louder Im watchin my fever Tols & Target.
I'm in my 60's if you think about it for 30 + years these companies have been ripping me off with this junk. before youtube we depended on ads in outdoor and gun magazines and the testing done by those same magazines who depended on those ad revenues to stay in business. I'm guessing there were guys like you doing fair and honest testing but they had no way to have there voices heard. keep doing what your doing and Merry Christmas to you.
It's easy to get into testing them yourself with water jugs
Tools, good video !!
Question: These ammo co. are not good. They should not cost more than
$5.00 per 100 rounds .JIMO😮
Thank you for the test, partner. Pretty much reinforces my opinion that unless it's a premium bullet, the 40 isn't particularly useful with the 180s. On the flip side, most 155-165 grain loads do well, even if it's not a "top shelf" load. Hope you and yours have a very Merry Christmas!
Thank you sir!💥🎄💥
In my .40 pistols the 155 to 165 grain rounds always seem to perform the best also. I'm not a fan of the lighter .40 rounds or the 180's.
the energy differences between most big name brands 40 sw in 180gr vs 165 gr is absolutely disgusting imo. most 180s barely even crack 400 ft lbs, whereas plenty of 155/165s are pushing 450+ and some well over 480-500+
Interesting. The WWB 9mm 147 seemed to do good and the Remington WB in 38 +P is good stuff too. Looks like they don't have the recipe quite right in 40. Good stuff
Yeah, I was surprised by these.
Hard to believe that the 147 JHP 9 mm showed any expansion. Evidently the ammo makers put in some extra effort into the R&D of the 9 mm bullets while the 180 grain JHP .40 S&W are an afterthought.
I'm pretty surprised with these results. The 40 is usually a great performer in any ammo series. I'll stick with HST or some higher end stuff. Thanks for the video!
.40 sucks tho
@@rsbreeze Thanks for your insightful opinion mrsbreeze.
@@rsbreeze
No it doesn't, with the right ammo it outperforms 9mm & 45acp. Police got the highest one shot stops with 40s&w right behind 357mag, but too many limp-wrist wimps joined law enforcement & couldn't handle it so PDs switched to 9mm.
Both in 9mm did well enough to be trusted (Winchester a bit better in my opinion), but these forties are definitely disappointing. Sorry these rounds ruined your future tests, but I appreciate you trying these regardless.
Thank you sir. Surprised how bad these were.
Yes the Winchester 9mm white box HP have always performed quite well. Never have seen a need to spend more for nominal better performance.
@@usernamesrlamo This kind of goes against the argument "The same technology goes into every caliber" doesn't it?
Yeah, I've seen some tests where teh whitebox stuff does ok. In 9mm. This .40 test tho... they pretty much FLUNKED.
Underloaded rounds, poor bullet construction, zero quality control.
Thanks for keeping up with 40 S&W ammo tests! So many others focus so much on just 9mm. There's a lot of us that like 40 and carry it daily.
In a full size Glock, that ammo should be hitting 1050-1075 fps. But even if it was going that fast, I don't think either one of those loads would open up like they are supposed to.
Yeah, they sure didn't get it right this time.😆
Full sized Glock has left the chat!
Thanks for your test and sharing. 20 and 30 years ago, I had problems with Remington rifle ammo, but Winchester seemed to perform much better, both on whitetails. With the way these both performed in 180 grain .40, FMJ would do about as well.
I feel any .40S&W load is better than any 9 Minimal load. HOWEVER, I would just as soon load my faithful old Smith in .40S&W with FPFMJ rounds in the heavier bullet weights than the stuff you were kind enough to test for us. The .40S&W "sweet spot", when it comes to true defensive bullets, seems to be in the 135 to 165grn range with my personal preference being 155grn. If I were to go with a 185grn load for personal defense, I'd have to break out a pistol in .45ACP. I must say though, that I'm more convinced than ever that the various major (best known/recognized) ammunition manufacturers are downloading all handgun ammo regardless of caliber even some of, if not all, the once mighty magnum calibers. Thanks for yet another excellent video and The Lovely Bride and I wish you and yours a Very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! Speaking of which, don't forget those turnip greens and black-eyed peas.
Test after test and I always come back to the tried and true Federal HST. Looking forward to test in the new year.
Happy Holidays.
Well, both ammo’s have stuck out. Game over. I was wondering about those HP’s in the standard white boxes. Was thinking exactly what happened in the test. Not worth the HP price difference. Thanks for the 100% spot on testing and commentary. Very interesting. I shoot jugs of water with those and some steel. Be safe. ⭐️🇺🇸⭐️🇺🇸
😎👊
I had bought some winchester white 40 s&w yrs ago for my first ccw. They were hollow point and cheap so i thought why not. Decided to test them out on some expired turkey, hog head, and brisket. Was very disappointed, the entire box of 50 only 4 expanded a moderate amount. The rest just pushed the hollow to an oval shape and tumbled. Watching these videos and testing myself I've decided HST, Critical Duty, and Gold Dot are my go to for edc for more common off the shelf ammo. Lehigh, underwood, and Buffalo bore for less common.
Shame they got these so wrong.
Good video 👍
Your test showed us that both these bullets performed like an FMJ bullet.
Thanks for taking the time to make this video for us Brother!! Love that hat!
Thank you sir.😎👊
Had high hopes for these “budget” rounds. Very disappointing as I’ve always liked the 40 cal. Thanks for the jelly test Tools, and have a Merry Christmas!
Very shocked that both had bad results, but glad I have your tests as references to help my customers.
I expected decent stuff from these. Merry Christmas, brother!💥🎄💥
@@ToolsandTargets Merry Christmas!!!
Hey man, idk if you take any requests, but I'd like to see any 9mm pcc at 100 yards hollow point in gel. I want to see if they'll expand at 100 yards. Ive looked it up and can't find a shred of information. Maybe try something premium and something budget friendly as far as ammo goes. But I wanna know if that extra velocity will allow the rounds to be at the speed they need to for expansion at 100 yards. Thanks again man, love your channel. Been a subscriber for years.
Never miss a video. Best ballistic gel tests on TH-cam. No bs atraight to the point thank you. I would love to see a video of black hills 5.56 62gr dual performance and drt 223 79 grain elite performance. A buddy of mine is a big hunter and swears by that drt round love to see how that stacks up to your traditional hollow point. Thanks for all the great content
'Fail Fest' I'm gonna have to remember that one. Thanks for all the hard work you do, brother! Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
THANK YOU TOOL ..!!!! YOU SHOW ME WHY I SHOOT ""40 PUNCH "" ...!!!!! GREAT VIDEO ..!!!!!
Nice test Tools you absolutely rock Man!!! I’m surprised to see the .40 did so terrible. After watching some of your older vids last week I did a 9mm 115 white box JHP test and they performed pretty good. Only 11” of penetration but decent .58 caliber expansion… I know they make bigger and more powerful calibers than 9mm but it just seems that most loads chambered in “Nina” work better🤔💭
😎👊
Thanks!
Thank you sir! Appreciate that.😎👊
Pitifull results Tools. This is getting to be like going to the grocery store, higher prices for less quantity. Manufactures, load the round to its potential and make sure it performs the way it should or don't make it at all.
Merry Christmas Tools.
Be vigilant and always be safe my friend.
Thank you sir. You too!💥🎄💥
Thanks for the useful input tools looks like I will keep using my favorite so far 165g V crown’s❤
😎👊
100%. I use the 180 grn though for my EDC
Thank you for the solid tests. The radar chrony is a great feature of your videos. Thanks for highlighting bad as well as good products.
I appreciate the lab radar as I’m probably the only one who wants to know the internal and external ballistics of a bullet throughout the effective range of it. Even for defense, we’ve seen justified 40+ yd scenarios. Most are close range, but never know. Train accordingly.
Nice test, thanks! Just bought 4 boxes of Fed HST 165's at $29 ea. I think they work.
Thanks for doing all these 40 tests as that is what I carry and every manufacturer has made this round the red headed step child. Great video as always!
so often you have proved not all hp ammunition is equal. although I rarely buy factory ammunition your honest tests all me to not waste my money reload ing those bullets. like you I don't want failure bullets. thank you so much for your tests. Papa wishing you well 😊
These tests never cease to impress me.
When I was younger, I would never have though it possible that a slower round would penetrate farther than a faster round.
Bullets do weird things.
Thanks for testing these. I have no experience with the Remington load in 40 S&W, but I am familiar with the Winchester load and have tested it out of a Glock 23 in clear ballistics gel using the FBI thick clothing protocol. It got 15.75 " of penetration and expanded to 0.71" at 983 FPS. To me, that's more than acceptable performance.
I'm just an amateur bullet tester and don't have videos and probably never will; guys like you do such a good job of covering the subject.
Occasionally, i come across a test like this that contradicts my own testing of a particular load and I wonder what the heck? Based on your results, I would never carry them. Based on mine, I would if I could not get Golden Sabers or HSTs or Gold Dots. I think I read on a forum that some Police departments used these to good effect while they were issuing the .40. Makes me wonder what has changed.
Great review! As you implied...Budget and Bad!! Although great for practice/training despite the personal protection advertisement on the box....👍👍👍👍
Thank you sir.😎👊
I try to stay away from narrow pointed hollows. Especially in .40 s&w. Wide cavity low grain rounds is the way to go.
I’ve tested the wwb in my G-22 in meat targets and it did really well. Pork loin and pork ribs watermelon middle then ribs n loin on back. Expanded little over 600 thousand. And kept jacket. I never tested umc. I don’t do gel tests meat n bones. I’d try them again in a different target.
These tests are all set up identical to compare rounds against other rounds. These things did absolutely horrible compared to nearly every other .40S&W round I have tested. I don't need to shoot Sunday dinner to know they are trash.
Definitely like seeing the short barrel tested with the 4 inch! Pitiful performance!🤯
Bad stuff.
I am surprised as i have tested both through a springfield xds 3.3 and they both peal back completely covering the base . But thats why you have to check you loads . I have tested hst and ranger as well with great results. The one load that has completely sucked for me is critical defense 40s&w that supposedly works through short barrels.
😎👊
I would assume that Remington is using a faster powder, hence the harsher recoil impulse, while having lower velocity. Nosler jhps are my go to for "budget" stockplie loading. Accurate as can be and opens through denim. For serious use/carry, loading HSTs for sure....definitely the gold standard.
Would make sense.😎👊
WWB is the only ammo I regularly see that has bad rounds. Bad primers I dont know but sometimes those bullets just dont shoot in all sorts of guns and they look fine on inspection. Been that way for my 25 years experience of shooting at the range.
Just saw Winchester white box 40 S&W for $38 a box and Federal HST for $29 on target sports USA. This is wild.
Nice work as usual. Love your vids
Appreciate that.😎👊
This was a big surprise to me. I haven't tried the UMC JHP, but I have shot both 115 and 147 WWB in 9mm and in water jugs, both rounds expanded very well. The 147s had some odd, lop-sided expansion in one round, but it still expanded to at least .425 to .450 in the poorest performing round. They definitely dropped the ball on these .40s for sure! Maybe the bullets were designed for 10mm back in the good ol days of HOT 10mms, but it sure seems odd for both companies to fail the same way.... This just goes to show how valuable good testing like this is for every round. It is clearly a mistake to believe that if one round does well in one caliber, then it should perform equally well in another caliber like you might think. Thanks, Tools for doing these eye opening tests. Who woulda thunk it, that both companies would sell such poor performers! These look like them green box Sierras in 9mm from the ammo crunch days a couple of years ago.
Your channel has the best ammunition content on the Tube Of You…Merry Christmas to you and yours 😊😊😊
I still think 40 is a more potent round than 9mm.. it all just comes down to ammo choice.. a 165 grain HST in 40 still opens up like twice as much as a 9mm HST or gold dot.. out of all the personal tests i have done that 165 grain HST opened up bigger than anything.. even 10mm HST & some 45 ACP loads & 9mm gold dots & HST's.. every caliber has ammo that doesn't work like it should i wouldn't hold that against the caliber but hold it against these companies for not loading the ammo right with good projectiles.. and every once in awhile you will find a budget option that does work and thats awesome when you can but thats not always gonna be the case so the high end stuff should still always be your 1st choice
Crazy how much better the 9mm defensive ammunition seems in budget brands when compared to .40 S&W. Interesting.
Better than nothing. If you get them cheap enough, then use that stuff for functioning and reliability testing. I thought surly that U.M.C would do ok.
As you said both didn't perform. Might as well buy cheaper FMJ for practice and high end bullets for defense.
I was expecting it to perform as good or better than the 9mm versions. These shouldn't be any more expensive than their FMJ offerings as it's little more than range or training ammo.
Same here.
You haven’t done tests with Norma’s Safeguard ammunition before have you? They are more of a traditional JHP, not their MHP. I’m seeing some boxes of 50 for around $20 right now, so I’m sure it’s probably not the best defensive ammunition. Anyways thanks for doing what you do. You and the great Paul Harrell are the only ones I watch for actual, non-biased, ballistics tests. 👊
I'll have to take a look.😎👊
perspective. wwb @ 413 ft-lbs is gonna hurt. that being said, better ammo for less money is the winning call.
I have a Taurus G2C .40 s&w, I'd love to know what performed in it, right now it's loaded with 165 gr Federal Punch. My wife has and old s&w model 411 in 40 s&w and that old gun shoots anything and accurately.
Excellent review. Thanks
What a hot mess. I was going ask for a short barrel test but like you said, there is no need. I have a box of the white box I bought several years ago for like $15 at Wally World. I was carrying them, not anymore. They're range ammo now. I was gonna try a box of the UMC because good JHPs are high as heck and slim pickins. I'd run flat nose before running those. Sad because the 9mm wasn't that bad. I'd run the 9mm if that's all I had.
I have both these rounds. FMJs with HP prices.
I mean... a hole in somebody is a hole in somebody. And while I know it's frustrating as can be in your gel blocks, I'd almost be willing to take a bit of that side travel inside of a bad guy. But with that much penetration as those were getting, it makes it a lot more dangerous to things behind or beside the bad guy.
Really revealing test on this one, Tools. Sorry for your brand new blocks, but considering how bad these rounds were, it's really good to know that they don't work as they should. Particularly when they're in the range of better ammunition prices.
I have not read other comments but I have to wonder if something is going on with the barrel of your Glock 22. It seems far too coincidental for both bullets to spin off target like that. Especially since Remington is a Vista Outdoors company using vista outdoors bullets, and the Winchester use’s Winchester/Olin bullets. In other words, they use different bullets.
I would say that this warrants another test, maybe using an FMJ RN or FP bullet from that Glock.
Actually my first thought was that I was wondering if something was off with that particular batch of ballistic gel. Maybe that sounds silly, but again, it’s just too much of a coincidence that both brands of ammo with their respective bullets performed almost exactly the same, irregularly.
Good job, sir! Merry Christmas to you and yours!
You too, my friend!💥🎄💥
Sucks because white box 40sw is solid range ammo in fmj. The performance is fine I just think it’s a crappy jhp.
Yeah, bullet seems to be the problem to me.
7:00 in I was expecting you to mag dump into the gel in hopes of getting one to stay in the block :D
Sometimes I have to fight the urge.😆😆😆
You can tell the Remington didn't expand but the wound channel on the Winchester looked like they expanded but they didn't lol thats weird.. at least I haven't bought any of that stuff in 40
i enjoy your videos. when it comes to these bullets it really doesn't matter about performance. if you shoot someone center mass with either bullet the person is going to have a very bad day. many people are killed with a 22.
Some of these HP aren't meant for expansion, some are intended for accuracy. I carry GD or hornady CD you're more assured to get better performance for the purpose of defense.
These are defensive rounds meant to expand. They just failed, period.
@@ToolsandTargets quite clearly, failed. 🤔
I enjoyed the video. Surprised on the bad performance. Maybe a bad lot? Hard to believe 40 S&W performed like that.
I would say they'd be good for target practice, but given the fact that the meplat probably isn't close enough as far as shape and form to create any real uniformity the higher price just isn't justified in no matter how i look at it lol.
Definitely not a bargain anymore.😣
While a G27 would make sense, the G22 is far more common in night stands and glove boxes (like my night stand).
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Hey Tools, Winchester white box is good stuff. Better than having nothing at all. Keep up the good work Sir! 💥💥💥👍👍👊
They sure didn't do the job this time around.😆
They went "bang" and would have stopped a threat. There is better, more consistently expanding ammo out there (for a price), but this punched holes in the gel.
I thought the results would’ve been better, but enough said with the results… Thanks for the testing, no second guessing on these ammo.
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Awesome video as always. Thank you for putting in the work for all of us. Do you have a video testing Winchester defender elite in 38+p? How do we go about sending you stuff to test? Thanks again and have a wonderful Christmas.
Looks like you have a mixture of Cirrius and Cirrocumulus way above your head.High pressure therefore good shooting weather!
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Merry Christmas Tools
Thank you sir. Same to you!💥🎄💥
Shocked with the wwb, I just shot one in water jugs a few days ago and it even fragmented. Have you thought about about trying some of these fails in organic gel?
Tools saving us money again! Might as well run FMJ if you get FMJ performance.
I know one thing arms core 22 long Riffle is nothing but garbage i just tried a box of 50 out in my tx22 and had 10 duds out of 50 some were loaded light others were supercharged thanks for the video when 40 cal looks that bad in A gel test it's getting Pitiful
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That's crazy! Both those rounds did very well in 9mm and 45acp! Poor, poor 40s&w
What’s poor about 40s&w
Excellent test and results....Thank you for your time and efforts making these presentations.
Good test. Ammo certainly isn’t one that I would carry. Thanks for the video and Merry Christmas to you and your family. 👍🇺🇸
Thank you sir!💥🎄💥
man i love your videos . i have a sig 2022 40 cal have never seen it tested .i love it .hope to see you try it out
I refuse to buy umc ever again. The rounds I got were so smokey and 1 round out of each magazine failed to eject. I don't think it was my tool because it has eaten every other round I've ever thrown at it without issue.
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Thanks for the test.
Most eXcellent my dude! Thanks for the share!!
Win. white box really are snappy.
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I like the intro into the UMC chrono. Please Glock 27, and thank as always Tools
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With how good the 9mm, 357, and 38 variations of these do I’m disappointed. Hopefully I can find you did a 45 test and see how those do.
Haven't done the .45 yet but will be soon.😎👍
@@ToolsandTargets also merry Christmas
What are your thoughts about NORMA - ASO - 380 AUTO - 65 GRAIN - FRANGIBLE ammo? Do you have a video on those? I couldn't find if ya do.
Looks like its plinking ammo, good test / bad results. Glad to see a video since its been a few days and I was hoping you was ok. Have a Merry Christmas
Thank you sir. Merry Christmas!
Fun fact: the Winchester USA ammo is the original .40 S&W cartridge
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You used to could get ANY 40 s&w and you was good. What happened with these two main namebrands.
Thanks for vids!
Thank you
Damn, thats pitiful. Those are some expensive target rounds. 🇺🇸
Yes indeed.😆
Bullet failure ! This is why the law enforcement agencies which still use the .40 S&W (but many are dropping it in favor of 9 mm) are using the lighter weight 155-165 grain bullets. Those lighter bullets at higher velocity have better expansion. The 180s are too slow to expand. Thanks for another excellent test.
In my experience with a 40, most factory ammo (not all) is pretty anemic as is a 10 mm. Why do ammo companies not like a 40???
This is why i use the sinterfire special duty in 40s&w
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Wow, that's way worse than I expected. If you haven't already, can you test some MagTech ammo in the various calibers? I use it fairly often for .357 mag and .44 magnum plinking ammo and they always seem considerably warmer than other brands. I'm curious how their defensive ammo is since it's usually on the more affordable side than not.
Somebody else tested some Magtech 180 grain .40 on here and their tests were pretty pathetic, too. The penetration was on the shallow side, not really too bad,, but the nose cavity filled up with denim in the denim test. No expansion at all.
Battle of the standards... Cool video Tools
Thank you sir. Appreciate that.😎👊
I remember them days when performance was high and price was low, seems like the high and low have traded places.
Sad, but true.
Another good ammo testing video Boom I really like watching them Tools Stay Safe Stay 2A Strong 🇺🇸
Bummer. I was rooting for WWB. But they should do 165s instead to get the requsite velocity. 😢
Yeah, 165 would be the way to go.
The "budget" 40s saw that nice clean block and then those "snappy" (insert eyeroll here) became just plain spiteful. 😢 Thanks for vid and getting the word out on these! 👍
Would it kill ammo maker to list average velocities out of 2", 3", 4", and 5" pistols?
Drives me nuts.😆
As always a good, informative video. These rounds basically performed as an fmj round. I can understand your disappointment in them as a self defense round because of the non expansion and over penetration but I don't think it a total loss. I thought even with the lack of expansion the wound channels weren't that bad. I don't even have a 40 cal but my brother does. His is also a glock but a more compact one. I think with the penetration these rounds wouldnt be bad for woods carry for self defense against big mean animals, then again fmj would be better for that as well as cheaper. Bottom line is I wouldn't spend money on these unless that's all that was available but if I already had some laying around they surely wouldn't go to waste. I think tests like these have some bearing on why certain gov agencies are going back to 9mm
You can't really compare that stuff to 9mm though.. a 165 grain HST opens up like 3× the size of a 9mm HST so 40 with the right ammo will still give you an up side over 9mm but they all have ups and downs.. it's all about your ammo choice
points well taken brother